# Ab training in flexion



## PillarofBalance (Oct 7, 2015)

So like most things, my thoughts opinions and methods change over time. If I shot steel my base program today he would quickly see its a far cry from what he trained on almost 2 years ago.

Having said that let's talk about training abs for weightlifters and powerlifters. 

Initially I subscribed to Louis Simmons' thoughts on ab training. Do them standing because in powerlifting if you are on your back then you are probably going to the hospital.

Ok so let's take that a bit further.  

If your spine is in flexion you are missing your lift.

Why are we doing things like crunches? Or any ab exercise where our spine curves? We need to flex our abs and push out against them to create rigidity in the trunk and to maintain the kinetic chain from head to toe.

I am starting to think that a simple plank is adequate.  And don't scoff at planks. If you are that guy that stacks plates on your back when you do them I guarantee you aren't doing it correctly. Holding a 10 second plank is extremely difficult. 

There are other things you can do like goblet squats if you want to add weight but all we are looking for is a static contraction. 

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Milo (Oct 7, 2015)

Never did abs until recently. Agree with your post but I have to say that the ab wheel is also a great tool to use for me. Helps me practice keeping core solid and my ass tight.

Edit: I also like to get on the GHR but facing upwards and hold that horizontal position locked out with a kettle bell on my chest. 
I think both could have practical applications with the big three.


----------



## John Ziegler (Oct 7, 2015)

So should I just throw this thing in the trash?







[/IMG]

:32 (18):


----------



## MS1605 (Oct 7, 2015)

That some kind of anal pump you got there, Zeig?


----------



## grizzldsealpoacher (Oct 7, 2015)

I am also for the ab wheel I feel it strengthens the core very well. I usually recommend it to guys that have no gym experience at all . its a great start to strength training before hitting the weights . I try and talk them into 4 weeks of wheel increasing volume before starting there journey in the gym 

I also use gym rings I set them down by my shins place my feet behind the bar there hanging off of stretch out completley and hold for a 5 count then pike back to my shins and hold as long as I can 1 to 3 sec, I usually do 3 sets of them its my favorite routine for abs


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 7, 2015)

I agree if you're doing planks with weights on your back you're not doing them right at all. A real plank is damn near hard enough to do without weights right. 

I used to do a lot of weighted incline situps and leg raises with band resistance. Lately I've been doing more standing ab work bc as you said, if we are on our back we are done (plus Coanbread recommended to try them). 

I've watched a lot of Klokov videos and noticed he doesn't do much in the way of crunches. He has a weird circuit of things he does but it worked for him. 

Here are Mike Tuchscherer's thoughts on abs:

Ab work is developmental. It's not going to be a make-or-break thing for your training, so what matters most IMO is...
1) that you do it, at least most of the time.
2) that you progressively load in terms of volume, intensity, or both.

So find something you enjoy doing. It's much easier when you enjoy it. I personally would rather do ab wheel than about anything else, so that's what I do.


----------



## MrRippedZilla (Oct 7, 2015)

From a performance perspective, I prefer to look at the core as a whole rather than separating the different groups (abs, low back , obliques, etc).

The idea should be to maintain a neutral spine and promote strength via stability. 
Things like crunches, leg raises, other movements that involve spinal extension/flexion do nothing for strength since your core was never designed for this purpose - it was designed to stay strong in a stable position. These movements have a place when it comes to hypertrophy since the extension/flexion of the spin is required to achieve a greater range of motion, which is an important part of generating muscle growth, but for performance....IME they're worthless. 

I personally like using bird dogs, RKC planks and vertical med ball throws on an unstable surface to promote a stronger, more stable core but it really depends on the sport (some like baseball, shotput, hammer throw, etc involve a rotational element so I'd add that to the training as well).

In short, I agree 100%


----------



## PillarofBalance (Oct 7, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> From a performance perspective, I prefer to look at the core as a whole rather than separating the different groups (abs, low back , obliques, etc).
> 
> The idea should be to maintain a neutral spine and promote strength via stability.
> Things like crunches, leg raises, other movements that involve spinal extension/flexion do nothing for strength since your core was never designed for this purpose - it was designed to stay strong in a stable position. These movements have a place when it comes to hypertrophy since the extension/flexion of the spin is required to achieve a greater range of motion, which is an important part of generating muscle growth, but for performance....IME they're worthless.
> ...



When I say abs I mean core really. I hate using that stupid word for some reason. I think it's because trainers seem to think it's the only shit anyone should do in the gym.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Oct 7, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I agree if you're doing planks with weights on your back you're not doing them right at all. A real plank is damn near hard enough to do without weights right.
> 
> I used to do a lot of weighted incline situps and leg raises with band resistance. Lately I've been doing more standing ab work bc as you said, if we are on our back we are done (plus Coanbread recommended to try them).
> 
> ...



That damn ab wheel is awesome but I have a hell of a time with it. My lats are much stronger than my trunk. So it turns into a damn straight arm pushdown...


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 7, 2015)

From the JTS website:


Q: Robert James Gonzlez-What is a good exercise for core stabilization for Olympic lifting?

A: Chad Wesley Smith-I’m a big fan of the ab wheel and really loading it up with a weight vet or chains, but the best thing you can do is squatting, pulling and cleaning without a belt on.

A: Dan Green-I prefer the ab wheel. Higher tension yields strengths. If the ab wheel is getting easy put weight on your back and if that’s easy do the ab wheel on your toes, not your knees, that wont be easy, I promise.

A: Brandon Lilly-For core stability, in my mind a much overlooked part of strength, you need to have multiple approaches. Ab wheel, static holds, planks, oblique work all go into having a powerful and stable midsection.

- See more at: http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/10/31/facebook-qa-recap/#sthash.9za5gLli.dpuf


----------



## ToolSteel (Oct 7, 2015)

All I do any more is planks and occasionally the ab wheel. Leaves me far more sore the next day than when I used to do sit-ups/crunches. 
In my extremely limited opinion you're spot on.


----------



## NbleSavage (Oct 7, 2015)

x3 or 4 for the ab wheel and planks. I like to end a training session with one or both.


----------



## DF (Oct 7, 2015)

I've never really gotten into planks.  I'm going to give those a shot.  I have an ab wheel & that shits tough.


----------



## curtisvill (Oct 7, 2015)

Well what about the six pack?  Gotta do the crunches.  LOL


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 7, 2015)

curtisvill said:


> Well what about the six pack?  Gotta do the crunches.  LOL



There are many stage ready BBers who get 8packs without doing a single crunch. That's the whole point of this thread to highlight the issues of crunches which impose spinal flexion which is a big no no when it comes time to staying healthy. 6pack is about body composition anyway not how many crunches one does


----------



## curtisvill (Oct 7, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> There are many stage ready BBers who get 8packs without doing a single crunch. That's the whole point of this thread to highlight the issues of crunches which impose spinal flexion which is a big no no when it comes time to staying healthy. 6pack is about body composition anyway not how many crunches one does



I agree with everything you said, I was just trying to be sarcastic.  I do not do crunches, I will do planks, decline leg raises as well as use an ab wheel when I want supplemental core work.


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 7, 2015)

curtisvill said:


> I agree with everything you said, I was just trying to be sarcastic.  I do not do crunches, I will do planks, decline leg raises as well as use an ab wheel when I want supplemental core work.



My bad, totally missed the sarcasm lol.


----------



## curtisvill (Oct 7, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> My bad, totally missed the sarcasm lol.




I knew it would happen, lol.


----------



## Uncle manny (Oct 7, 2015)

Planks and plank progessions are the way to go. Also a big fan of fronts squats not because it might hit the quads more but because it really forces the core to work to stay up right. Rotational and anti rotation movements are great. Cable low to high- high to low but every one you see who does these do them wrong. Also pallof presses are good in reguards to functional core training.


----------



## tunafisherman (Oct 7, 2015)

Guess I need to get an ab wheel.  Seeing the ones in stores, can't you just build one yourself?  Looks relatively easy, and the reason I want one is to add it to my small but growing home gym space.


----------



## ToolSteel (Oct 7, 2015)

You have an ez-curl bar? Throw a couple 10's on with good clamps. Done.


----------



## tunafisherman (Oct 7, 2015)

Was thinking even easier to make (old wheel from toddler's "bike", then a pole shoved through)  That way I can keep doing curls while my wife is doing her abs. haha


----------



## MrRippedZilla (Oct 7, 2015)

I normally call these reverse planks for lack of a better way of describing them but here is a core stabilization move that the Chinese OLers like to do:




Basic planks are great but at some point your going to have to become creative in order to keep progressing, those as well as RKC planks are easy ways of increasing the difficulty move.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Oct 7, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I normally call these reverse planks for lack of a better way of describing them but here is a core stabilization move that the Chinese OLers like to do:
> 
> View attachment 2146
> 
> ...



That looks ****ing awesome


Anyone ever try excessive drinking for core? Last time I abused a bottle of whiskey I barfed so hard Mt abs were sore for almost a week.


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 7, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> That looks ****ing awesome
> 
> 
> Anyone ever try excessive drinking for core? Last time I abused a bottle of whiskey I barfed so hard Mt abs were sore for almost a week.



Not from drinking but from recs yes. Fukking barfed so hard one time my abs popped the fukk out.


----------



## tunafisherman (Oct 7, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> That looks ****ing awesome
> 
> 
> Anyone ever try excessive drinking for core? Last time I abused a bottle of whiskey I barfed so hard Mt abs were sore for almost a week.



IDK, I drank so much I should have the most ripped 8 pack around.... such is not the case... haha.  I do, however, like the fact I can use the past tense... drank.


----------



## ECKSRATED (Oct 11, 2015)

I do abs on the cables. Grab the ropes and then while holding the ropes I put my hands against my forehead and do it like that. I keep my back perfectly straight and pretty much do a reverse good morning if that makes sense. Crushes your core. Give them a shot and let me know how you guys like em


----------



## Joliver (Oct 11, 2015)

Planks are for butt pirates and Instagram.


----------



## pilgrim (Oct 12, 2015)

Grab a fence plank at one end and lift the others end off the ground then turn slow and smooth from side back to center and then the other side don't swing just turn slow and pause. You will feel it


----------



## regular (Oct 12, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> So like most things, my thoughts opinions and methods change over time. If I shot steel my base program today he would quickly see its a far cry from what he trained on almost 2 years ago.
> 
> Having said that let's talk about training abs for weightlifters and powerlifters.
> 
> ...



The only ab/core exercise I do is flutter kicks, which meets your criteria of keeping your back straight and is much more intense than doing planks.






I do 120lb dumbbell pullovers on a decline bench, which really engages my core also because it's more or less like a flutter kick but with my arms. I use to lift at a gym that had a pullover machine, it squeezed my core so hard I felt like I was going to throw up every time I used it. Probably one the most intense machine I've ever used.


----------



## grizzldsealpoacher (Oct 12, 2015)

here's a super cheap ab wheel and its prime if you have prime which everyone should have 

http://www.amazon.com/Sunny-Health-...UTF8&qid=1444688408&sr=1-11&keywords=ab+wheel


----------

