# Need Guidance On First Cycle



## fallout (May 15, 2015)

Hi Guys,

So i think I finally found a legit source after forum crawling and cross-referencing a bit.  Now I need to know exactly what you guys think I should buy.  I'm 5'10" and currently 195 lbs.  About 18% body fat, so clearly my main goal is to put on a little muscle but primarily cut and lean down.  Advice from my seniors?


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## bronco (May 15, 2015)

How old are you? Have you done any research about what a first cycle should look like? I dont think anyone here is going to spoon feed you, come up with a plan post it then we will belp you out


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## fallout (May 15, 2015)

bronco said:


> How old are you? Have you done any research about what a first cycle should look like? I dont think anyone here is going to spoon feed you, come up with a plan post it then we will belp you out



I'm 31, and yes I've done research but it's kinda hard for me to tell who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.  And I'm having trouble finding info on a good cutting cycle


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## StoliFTW (May 15, 2015)

According to your research what do you think your first cycle should look like? Length, dosages, compounds, anciliaries? If you just want to cut and lean down, just cut now for 3-4 months  first then cycle. It's easier that way.. You can use this time to nail down your diet.


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## PillarofBalance (May 15, 2015)

Your first cycle will be just testosterone so don't worry about cutting cycles. Your best bet would be to run the test and just put on as much muscle as possible. All that new muscle will make cutting a lot easier.


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## fallout (May 15, 2015)

is there not like a good anabolic you can recommend that can help with cutting.  despite having a super strict diet, i seem to be having a very hard time leaning up.  Also I'm having trouble deciding between test Phyenylpropionate or enanthate.


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## Seeker (May 15, 2015)

I would lose a few more % BF before if I was you. At your weight your BF should be lower. Prime yourself first with a good diet and exercise plan..then run your 1st cycle via test. You'll be much happier with the results


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## fallout (May 15, 2015)

ok seeker.  I suppose I will do that.  But nonetheless.  Anytips/supplement advice for shedding the body fat.  I've gotten down to 14% before but literally had to starve myself and workout for 3 hours a day.  I mean like 1.5 hr weights, 30 min cardio, 30-45 min abs.  I was literally doing that everyday and I know you shouldn't starve yourself, but dispite having a clean low carb diet it still wasn't working, so I resulted to starving myself to shed the fat.  I'm probably realistically back up to 16% now, i was overstating a bit before.  But I just can't seem to lean up on my own. OH and also when I do get ready, proprionate vs enanthate doesn't matter too much?


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## StoliFTW (May 15, 2015)

30-45min abs? GTFO .. Lol


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## StoliFTW (May 15, 2015)

All joking aside - Diet and cardio bro will make you lose the fat.   Then diet and lifting will add the muscle.   Diet is key whatever your goals. 

Also Prop Ester is not the same as an Enan ester.. It does matter in terms of pinning frequency .. I'd research a little more bro


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## Seeker (May 15, 2015)

Oh. I hope you didn't take as me trying to be mean. I was sincere. As for the test ester I would go for the Enanthate as it would only require two shots a week.


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## fallout (May 15, 2015)

StoliFTW said:


> 30-45min abs? GTFO .. Lol



30-45 minute abs was definitely not a joke.. i really really wish it was.  by the time I'm done I can barely do another sit up after breaks.  believe me I have no reason to try to be cocky or brag.  it's just the facts.  I have very strong abs and hip flexers and they get stronger as I do this, but the fat on top of the abdominal wall just sits there.  Do you guys never do abs for that long?  I guess I'm a little lost at the humor in it.


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## fallout (May 15, 2015)

Thanks seeker.  And no I didn't take it as mean.  That's the kind of advice I'm looking for.  After I start my first cycle I suppose it's good to keep doing a pre-workout/amino acids/ and whey?  Other than that I suppose I'll continue to research on my own to find something to help me shred some of the subcutaneous fat away.  Shit is stubborn.


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## Seeker (May 15, 2015)

I would just use the whey. You don't need it, food is always best, but nothing wrong with nice whey protein shake p/wo. It's refreshing for me.


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## HDH (May 16, 2015)

fallout said:


> ok seeker.  I suppose I will do that.  But nonetheless.  Anytips/supplement advice for shedding the body fat.  I've gotten down to 14% before but literally had to starve myself and workout for 3 hours a day.  I mean like 1.5 hr weights, 30 min cardio, 30-45 min abs.  I was literally doing that everyday and I know you shouldn't starve yourself, but dispite having a clean low carb diet it still wasn't working, so I resulted to starving myself to shed the fat.  I'm probably realistically back up to 16% now, i was overstating a bit before.  But I just can't seem to lean up on my own. OH and also when I do get ready, proprionate vs enanthate doesn't matter too much?



This is something you will really have to understand, the aas you take will not make you lose weight. 

What you say you have done just doesn't add up. 

If you did do this, you didn't do it for long enough. I have a couple questions.

What was your start and finish weight?

If you ended at 14%, what did you start at?

How did you test for BF?

How long did you do this for consistently?

What were your calories set at for the day?

What were your maintenance calories?

What food did you eat?

Bro, if you can answer these honestly, you will get the help that you need. No bullshit.

If you don't know the answers you can start from here, get on the right track and have plenty of support. 

Losing weight is pretty simple. For me it's just numbers and not eating crap. 

Cals going in vs cals being used. 

H


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## fallout (May 16, 2015)

Can't delete this. wtf


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## fallout (May 16, 2015)

HDH said:


> This is something you will really have to understand, the aas you take will not make you lose weight.
> 
> What you say you have done just doesn't add up.
> 
> ...



started at 230 lbs, ended at 185. got sick and was out of it for about 4 to 6 weeks and put about 10 lbs back on. I tested my body fat with a bone mineral density machine in my downtime at work, as I work in radiology and there is no more accurate way to test it I assure you of that. I worked out for 6 months extremely consistently. I plateaued at 185-190 about 2 months before I got sick and started slacking up, and couldn't make any further progress despite working out for 3 hours a day 4 to 6 days a week. If you are trying to be helpful by all means be helpful, and thank you, but I don't really feel like validating my own statements to people who just don't want to believe me. My daily caloric intake is about 1500 give or take 150. I realize that is very low, but it seems to be necessary as I can't shed a bit of fat if I have more, healthy calories or otherwise. My day job is not a super active one. Its a mix of on my feet walking and sitting at a desk. I don't know what my body fat started at but I'd have to guess around 28% or more. 230, 70 inches. I'm not trying to be snippy, I just don't like when people elude to saying I'm full of shit, when I truly am just trying to be honest and get some insight here, but I suppose I can understand your skepticism.


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## Up'dMyCarbs (May 16, 2015)

Buddy, 

I'm starting my first cycle this monday and I've gotta tell you that I think your BF% is too high. Personally I've been cutting to get to 10% or less. By being lean in the first place before you cycle you show this forum that you have the diet aspect of bodybuilding down and they are more willing to help you out. Also, veterans correct me if i'm wrong, the higher % body fat you cycle at, the more chance you might stumble into issues like aromatisation which can give you things like gyno.

A couple of members on this forum has helped me tremendously in perfecting my cycle but if you really are into going for your first cycle, you need to do more research and already have a Idea on what you want to run and what every single thing you take does to your body.

That's just my 2 cents


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## fallout (May 16, 2015)

thanks, yea that's what I've decided from seeker's advice earlier.  Gyno is scary.


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## wabbitt (May 17, 2015)

The guy is 31 years old.  Seems to at least be on track with his routine.  No reason he shouldn't cycle if he wants to.  It's crazy how people start interjecting that bf is too high, etc.  What do you base that on?


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## McDuffy (May 17, 2015)

fallout said:


> 30-45 minute abs was definitely not a joke.. i really really wish it was.  by the time I'm done I can barely do another sit up after breaks.  believe me I have no reason to try to be cocky or brag.  it's just the facts.  I have very strong abs and hip flexers and they get stronger as I do this, but the fat on top of the abdominal wall just sits there.  Do you guys never do abs for that long?  I guess I'm a little lost at the humor in it.



nobody here does abs except me and bundy. he got band and i stop doing abs to focus on bulking. so nobody here does abs


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## McDuffy (May 17, 2015)

If you want lean out use EphedraCaffeine diet and exercise. Steroids build muscle not cut fat.


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## Seeker (May 17, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> The guy is 31 years old.  Seems to at least be on track with his routine.  No reason he shouldn't cycle if he wants to.  It's crazy how people start interjecting that bf is too high, etc.  What do you base that on?



I based it on his stats and I'm sticking to it, and if he's wise he'll take my advice. Yeah he's 31, he's under 200 lbs and at 18% his BF is too high. he needs to understand proper diet, get a fix on lowering his BF and start his cycle at a more leaner physique. .  Just like HDH said the AAS he takes will not fix his weight problem. People think hoping on AAS will fix all their problems and walla, instant Adonis physique. Not gonna happen. DIET is key. DIET is always key!!  The important factor here is understating sides and knowing that higher BF can and will contribute to more sides while using AAS, especially if one does not have an understanding of proper DIET and monitoring and controlling sides.  can he start AAS now with high BF? Sure he can. But if he does not have control of his DIET he's gonna be dissatisfied with his results and chances are he will deal with sides he might not have to with lower BF.


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## HDH (May 17, 2015)

fallout said:


> started at 230 lbs, ended at 185. got sick and was out of it for about 4 to 6 weeks and put about 10 lbs back on. I tested my body fat with a bone mineral density machine in my downtime at work, as I work in radiology and there is no more accurate way to test it I assure you of that. I worked out for 6 months extremely consistently. I plateaued at 185-190 about 2 months before I got sick and started slacking up, and couldn't make any further progress despite working out for 3 hours a day 4 to 6 days a week. If you are trying to be helpful by all means be helpful, and thank you, but I don't really feel like validating my own statements to people who just don't want to believe me. My daily caloric intake is about 1500 give or take 150. I realize that is very low, but it seems to be necessary as I can't shed a bit of fat if I have more, healthy calories or otherwise. My day job is not a super active one. Its a mix of on my feet walking and sitting at a desk. I don't know what my body fat started at but I'd have to guess around 28% or more. 230, 70 inches. I'm not trying to be snippy, I just don't like when people elude to saying I'm full of shit, when I truly am just trying to be honest and get some insight here, but I suppose I can understand your skepticism.



I want to start by saying after re reading my post, I had made a statement "no bullshit". I see where it could have been read as "from you" but it was meant to read no bullshit on the help you will receive. 

The opening post is one I've seen more times over the years on these boards from people looking for help from the anabolics when the answer lies in everything else. Don't get me wrong, they are a powerful tool but only enhance what we do. They don't do it for us. 

I'm glad you understand the skepticism.

You started at a point that takes a very long time to reach your goal and you didn't include enough information on what you really did or where you really started. If you plateaued, you didn't make the proper adjustments as the diet went along. When starting off at a high weight, needing to take a lot of it off, it takes time to do it correctly.

You lost 45lbs in about 6 months. That's around 2lbs a week. Good healthy loss to preserve muscle. It's probably closer to a 15% BF loss which is quite an accomplishment. When you lose weight, you not only lose fat, you lose water and muscle as well.

I'm going to go over the questions I asked so you understand why I asked them then you will have a better grasp on what it takes to keep a consistent loss all the way through to meet your goals.


What was your start and finish weight?

 If you ended at 14%, what did you start at?

 How did you test for BF?

 How long did you do this for consistently?

 What were your calories set at for the day?

 What were your maintenance calories?

 What food did you eat?


Asking about starting and finishing weight and BF% tells us what you have gone through to get where your at. 

Many different ways of testing for BF, some aren't to accurate and some people take a guess.

How long you did it for tells us your dedication. This is all about putting in the time. Some want it fast and the ones that succeed look at it as a change in lifestyle and something they work on for the rest of their lives.

A consistent amount of cals taken in will be the biggest determining factor in consistent gains and losses. Cals burned should stay consistent week after week.

Maintenance cals are cals that keep you the same weight each week, with consistent cals in and consistent cals burnt, you will know what to expect all the time. There are plenty of web sites to start with for maintenance cals. Just google "what are my maintenance cals?" answer a few questions, age, weight, activity, etc...

3500cal = 1lb a week. That's 500cals a day, up or down. After you take a few weeks to determine what keeps you at the same weight, either add 500cals a day to gain a lb or take 500cals away to lose a lb. Cals going in vs cals burnt for a consistent gain or loss.

Now you will want to take a few weeks to make sure this is correct. These sites aren't a one size fits all. Everyone is different. You will want to be fully ready when you start anabolics so no time is wasted on the cycle. You will have a starting point at the beginning and a plan with direction.

When you plateau, or start slowing on gains or losses, it's time to adjust your cals to keep the forward momentum. It's also a good way to gain lean without extra cals going to fat.

It's something to get used to. I hand write everything and have been for going on 2 years now. There are aps you can get that track everything for you. For me, it has become second nature and just a part of my day to day affairs.

Summary-

Find maintenance cals. Activities should remain the same. Cardio should stay consistent and cals tracked.

There are plenty of web sites to start with for maintenance cals. Just google "what are my maintenance cals?" anser a few questions, age, weight, activity, etc...

Determine how much you want to gain or lose in what period of time, 2lb a week is a good loss. 

Make adjustments as you gain or lose.

Cal adjustments can be made from food, tracked cardio or a mix of both.

Plenty of guys here willing to help and give back what they have been given.

H


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## Seeker (May 17, 2015)

HDH said:


> I want to start by saying after re reading my post, I had made a statement "no bullshit". I see where it could have been read as "from you" but it was meant to read no bullshit on the help you will receive.
> 
> The opening post is one I've seen more times over the years on these boards from people looking for help from the anabolics when the answer lies in everything else. Don't get me wrong, they are a powerful tool but only enhance what we do. They don't do it for us.
> 
> ...



Livestrong is a great website. I've used it in the past


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## Rip (May 17, 2015)

What were you eating daily? Hourly? A lot of guys think they're eating right...but they are way off the mark. 
You might not be eating enough and often enough to maintain lean muscle mass, and as a result, you lose lean muscle and your metabolism slows down.


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## fallout (May 17, 2015)

thanks for the guidance.  I can't possibly take less calories though.  I eat 3 protein shakes and a carb free / lean meat dinner at night.  Maybe i should be eating more I'm sure, but it seems like I'm just gaining weight when I try that.  Probably around usually around 1200-1500 calories/day.  Eating less seems like a really bad Idea, i've been getting some pretty bad charlie horses after my workouts.


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## Paolos (May 18, 2015)

I think Rip nailed it you are not eating enough as per your post regarding 1200-1500 calories a day.
My wife is cutting for a show and she is eating more than you if your numbers are right.

Get rid of the shakes fallout you will never make predictable gains (or losses) with food replacements.

Hire a diet coach (and we have a couple on the site) it will be the best $$ you ever spend.


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## HDH (May 18, 2015)

fallout said:


> thanks for the guidance.  I can't possibly take less calories though.  I eat 3 protein shakes and a carb free / lean meat dinner at night.  Maybe i should be eating more I'm sure, but it seems like I'm just gaining weight when I try that.  Probably around usually around 1200-1500 calories/day.  Eating less seems like a really bad Idea, i've been getting some pretty bad charlie horses after my workouts.



The step by step I wrote up will work for any beginner to get them on track and learning their bodies. If it seems like to much work, you won't reach your goals. This is all about the work. If it was easy, everyone would look like us.

You can take in as many cals as you like, just burn the extra off with cardio. It gives me a better conditioned look + you will get the extra nutrients from the food. 

The only other advice I can give is eat food. Save the shakes when you bulk and have a hard time taking cals in.


H


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## Rip (May 20, 2015)

fallout said:


> 30-45 minute abs was definitely not a joke.. i really really wish it was.  by the time I'm done I can barely do another sit up after breaks.  believe me I have no reason to try to be cocky or brag.  it's just the facts.  I have very strong abs and hip flexers and they get stronger as I do this, but the fat on top of the abdominal wall just sits there.  Do you guys never do abs for that long?  I guess I'm a little lost at the humor in it.



I only do 3 exercises and 3 sets of 12 for each. A total of 9 sets Twice per week...3 times at the most (if I can get around to it). That's all you need if you do them right. 
By the way...you can't spot reduce. Working your abs will NOT get rid of abdominal fat. 
Increasing lean muscle mass on the entire body, clean diet, and cardio,(although i can stay lean without cardio) will work better.
Muscle weighs more than fat. Go by the mirror, not the scale. The increasing and maintaining lean muscle mass will increase your metabolism. You're not eating enough and often enough to prevent catabolism.


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## hulksmash (May 20, 2015)

Test @ 500mg/wk
12 weeks

2,000 calories/150g protein daily

+/- 200 calories after 4 weeks (subtract if too much fat gain, add if no weight gain)

Keep It Simple, Stupid.


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## TheQuestionaire96 (Jul 8, 2017)

agrereeed mate


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