# Did the golden era use pct



## newguy

i've been reading about the history of bodybuilding and wonder if that era even used pct, i know think the mass monsters of today probably never use pct or just go on a blast and cruise but what did that era do


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## Jaydub

Fought thru till the crash, cried themselves to sleep once they crashed, repeated the cycle


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## stonetag

That is a good question, without some reading up on it. I'm going to look into that.


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## El Gringo

I doubt it. PCT makes little sense to anyone who uses steroids for the vast majority of your life. why would you do a 3 month cycle making big gains then spend the next 3 months dealing with out of wack/low hormone levels. PCT after a cycle is spinning your wheels, if you ask me. whats the point of trying to get your natty levels back if your going to deplete them again in another couple months. I laugh at people who talk about PCT advise and also say they'll probably be on TRT in a few years. If thats the case why bother with PCT?


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## Beezy

El Gringo said:


> I doubt it. PCT makes little sense to anyone who uses steroids for the vast majority of your life. why would you do a 3 month cycle making big gains then spend the next 3 months dealing with out of wack/low hormone levels. PCT after a cycle is spinning your wheels, if you ask me. whats the point of trying to get your natty levels back if your going to deplete them again in another couple months. I laugh at people who talk about PCT advise and also say they'll probably be on TRT in a few years. If thats the case why bother with PCT?



Quitters never win and winners never quit. Trt 4 Life


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## PillarofBalance

Seek has said many many times that no they didn't.

That doesn't make it best though.


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## Seeker

PillarofBalance said:


> Seek has said many many times that no they didn't.
> 
> That doesn't make it best though.



there was no pct back in those days. Nolvadex came on to the scene later on. then Duchaine made everyone aware of HCG. I personally never ran a pct. lol seriously. But I would recommend you younger  guys do so.


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## Uncle manny

I’m 29 and running my third cycle starting Monday. I plan on doing a full pct and don’t really want to go on the trt route till late 30s if I could even make it that far running 2 cycles a year. But then it gets conflicting when I think about it... I feel like f it just keep running test then part of me says to try keep my natural test up as long as I can.


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## El Gringo

Uncle manny said:


> I’m 29 and running my third cycle starting Monday. I plan on doing a full pct and don’t really want to go on the trt route till late 30s if I could even make it that far running 2 cycles a year. But then it gets conflicting when I think about it... I feel like f it just keep running test then part of me says to try keep my natural test up as long as I can.


exactly this^^^. Why bother with PCT if you say you're going to be on TRT eventually. Whats the point of trying to get your natty levels up if you're just going to crash them again? With Cruising, you'll keep more of your gains and you won't deal with big fluctuations between your hormone levels. I really don't see the point of PCT unless if your plan is to be 1 and done.


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## Bro Bundy

the point is to get off drugs and give your body a rest..


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## gymrat827

Bro Bundy said:


> the point is to get off drugs and give your body a rest..



I’m with u here.  

Let things cool down after pct.  start or keep natty gains going n then hop back on for quicker results.  

Unless ur low normally, I would try not to go on pct til ur 32/34.  

Knock the wife up, etc.  then it’s trt time.  

But everyone will have a diff opinion


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## herrsauce

Sterility concerns are a major consideration in my opinion for the child-rearing age AAS enhanced lifter. Outside of that, I am not aware of any empirical evidence demonstrating a significant increase in the safety profile of blasting and cruising versus those who go the cycle and PCT route.

I am sure POB or Doc or someone else could chime in with some knowledge bombs based in literature. I would be curious as to what the data, if any, demonstrates.

However, I imagine that the most we can surmise will be based on anecdotal analysis of the health profiles of each generation of AAS user. Compounds used for PCT are arguably more toxic with greater side effect profiles than many of the AAS compounds that we use (excepting tren and anadrol!). 

I was placed on TRT at 20-21 due to a pituitary insufficiency, so I have never had to PCT thankfully.


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## Jaydub

Usually on cycle you get certain side effects like high blood pressure, increased red blood cells etc.. when you come off you're giving your body a chance to rest so to speak. Let your heart take a breather. The PCT comes in as a handy tool to help keep those hard earned Gaines. If you've been loyal to a cycling system, you can jump start your system to a certain degree.


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## DocDePanda187123

herrsauce said:


> Sterility concerns are a major consideration in my opinion for the child-rearing age AAS enhanced lifter. Outside of that, I am not aware of any empirical evidence demonstrating a significant increase in the safety profile of blasting and cruising versus those who go the cycle and PCT route.
> 
> I am sure POB or Doc or someone else could chime in with some knowledge bombs based in literature. I would be curious as to what the data, if any, demonstrates.
> 
> However, I imagine that the most we can surmise will be based on anecdotal analysis of the health profiles of each generation of AAS user. Compounds used for PCT are arguably more toxic with greater side effect profiles than many of the AAS compounds that we use (excepting tren and anadrol!).
> 
> I was placed on TRT at 20-21 due to a pituitary insufficiency, so I have never had to PCT thankfully.



Toxicity is determined by more than just the drug itself. Nolva and clomid aren’t really toxic, nor are they any worse for you than AAS. Plus, a typical PCT is about 4wks in length. Compare that vs staying on test indefinitely and the answer as to which is “safer” is a pretty easy conclusion.


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## DieYoungStrong

Just my opinion - if you’re coming off for 2-3 months and then hoping on, there’s really no reason to take the extra drugs for pct. maybe blast some hcg. If you’re going to be off like 4-6 months AFTER pct, then run a full pct. 

running a full pct to stay off for a month after finishing pct and then hopping on another cycle is pointless imo.


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## Bro Bundy

pct after a bunch of cycles id useless..Its just more drugs


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## herrsauce

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Toxicity is determined by more than just the drug itself. Nolva and clomid aren’t really toxic, nor are they any worse for you than AAS. Plus, a typical PCT is about 4wks in length. Compare that vs staying on test indefinitely and the answer as to which is “safer” is a pretty easy conclusion.




Interesting viewpoint. I respect your information of course, but perhaps defining terms are in order. I used the term "toxicity" in a layman sense, not specifically in reference to organ specific tissue damage in the sense of vancomycin induced renal failure, or something to the like.
The doses we use are often higher and cumulatively for longer periods of time then they are typically used in their target population (women). Of course our body mass is higher, so dosing has not been established for men directly. Clomid has been known to cause pancreatitis, hyperlipidemias, yet probably has a higher safety profile than other drugs. Tamoxifen is linked to all sort of depressive symptoms, thrombocytopenia, cardiovascular complications, etc.

Now I am certainly not arguing for the limitless safety profile of testosterone which has an inherit cluster of adverse effects. What I am saying is are we certain that suffering the hormonal fluctuations, decreased quality of life, and potential cardiovascular complications inherit in PCT is better than cruising on a reasonable (150 mg a week) dose of exogenous testosterone. Given the number of cycles a year remains the same?

I am talking specifically about the over 30, recreational male lifter who plans on taking AAS for a long period of time. Of course the weekend warrior who does 4 cycles in his 20's is not at as great a risk as those of us who plan to use AAS for the duration of our functional lives.

Of course, the healthiest course of action would be some swimming, yoga, and a colorful produce rich diet; but that is not really why any of us are here. Again, I respect your information, hence why I pose the question to you. I need a little of dem knowledge bombs Doc.


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## DF

Back in the day there was no pct.  We did pyramid & taper the dose back then, but seems based on today's knowledge that was not effective.


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## DocDePanda187123

herrsauce said:


> Interesting viewpoint. I respect your information of course, but perhaps defining terms are in order. I used the term "toxicity" in a layman sense, not specifically in reference to organ specific tissue damage in the sense of vancomycin induced renal failure, or something to the like.
> The doses we use are often higher and cumulatively for longer periods of time then they are typically used in their target population (women). Of course our body mass is higher, so dosing has not been established for men directly. Clomid has been known to cause pancreatitis, hyperlipidemias, yet probably has a higher safety profile than other drugs. Tamoxifen is linked to all sort of depressive symptoms, thrombocytopenia, cardiovascular complications, etc.
> 
> Now I am certainly not arguing for the limitless safety profile of testosterone which has an inherit cluster of adverse effects. What I am saying is are we certain that suffering the hormonal fluctuations, decreased quality of life, and potential cardiovascular complications inherit in PCT is better than cruising on a reasonable (150 mg a week) dose of exogenous testosterone. Given the number of cycles a year remains the same?
> 
> I am talking specifically about the over 30, recreational male lifter who plans on taking AAS for a long period of time. Of course the weekend warrior who does 4 cycles in his 20's is not at as great a risk as those of us who plan to use AAS for the duration of our functional lives.
> 
> Of course, the healthiest course of action would be some swimming, yoga, and a colorful produce rich diet; but that is not really why any of us are here. Again, I respect your information, hence why I pose the question to you. I need a little of dem knowledge bombs Doc.



You make some interesting points, I’ll see if I can address them. 

I have yet to see pancreatitis from clomid use in males who use it for PCT purposes or males who use it as a monotherapy for treating hypogonadism. The same goes for nolva andthrombocytopenia or cardiovascular complications. 

A study done by one of the more prominent male breast cancer centers analyzed medical reports of 64 male breast cancer patients from 1999 to 2009. THey found that the top 2 side effects reported In male use of tamoxifen was weight gain and sexual dysfunction. 4 patients had to stop per doctors orders for medical complications. I don’t have full access to the data so I can’t say what those complications were. They could be some that you listed they could be something else. I’m not saying it’s impossible to have complications from nolva or tamox just that it’s not such a common thing otherwise it would be more prevalent on pubmed, medline, etc. maybe I just haven’t looked Hard enough idk. 

How are you gauging decreased quality of life as a side effect of PCT drugs? 

How are you gauging the suffering from hormonal fluctuations? Hormone levels fluctuate naturally as is. Are you talking about larger fluctuations from going supraphysiological to subphysiological back to physiological? Bc I would argue going from a blast dose to a cruise dose would also create a large fluctuation. 

Even at a 150mg dose of test, which I would argue is too much for most people to be in normal physiological ranges, you do get complications as you rightly point out. Properly prescribed TRT protocols still have to deal with polycythemia, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, gynecomastia, hypertension, etc.


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## Yaya

Never ever back then

Take tons Tribulus and Clomid ... and if 6oxo is around take that also


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## herrsauce

DocDePanda187123 said:


> You make some interesting points, I’ll see if I can address them.
> 
> I have yet to see pancreatitis from clomid use in males who use it for PCT purposes or males who use it as a monotherapy for treating hypogonadism. The same goes for nolva andthrombocytopenia or cardiovascular complications.
> 
> A study done by one of the more prominent male breast cancer centers analyzed medical reports of 64 male breast cancer patients from 1999 to 2009. THey found that the top 2 side effects reported In male use of tamoxifen was weight gain and sexual dysfunction. 4 patients had to stop per doctors orders for medical complications. I don’t have full access to the data so I can’t say what those complications were. They could be some that you listed they could be something else. I’m not saying it’s impossible to have complications from nolva or tamox just that it’s not such a common thing otherwise it would be more prevalent on pubmed, medline, etc. maybe I just haven’t looked Hard enough idk.
> 
> How are you gauging decreased quality of life as a side effect of PCT drugs?
> 
> How are you gauging the suffering from hormonal fluctuations? Hormone levels fluctuate naturally as is. Are you talking about larger fluctuations from going supraphysiological to subphysiological back to physiological? Bc I would argue going from a blast dose to a cruise dose would also create a large fluctuation.
> 
> Even at a 150mg dose of test, which I would argue is too much for most people to be in normal physiological ranges, you do get complications as you rightly point out. Properly prescribed TRT protocols still have to deal with polycythemia, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, gynecomastia, hypertension, etc.




I see your points. It is naivety on my part to openly question the availability of sufficient empirical evidence necessary to adequately determine the long-term safety profile of either approach. My employment allows me access to pubmed, EBSCO, Medline, etc, and there is scant data for men at the doses we use, which I am sure you are well aware. I appreciate your input.

In terms of subjective suffering, I was simply going off of admittedly limited anecdotal evidence provided by users across the spectrum; a particularly unscientific approach given my apparent bias as a TRT user.

As a graduate prepared clinician, I can sometimes come at this from a perspective that is ill-equipped to accept the available data, which is largely composed of field research by gents such as yourself.

Feedback is appreciated.


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## DocDePanda187123

herrsauce said:


> I see your points. It is naivety on my part to openly question the availability of sufficient empirical evidence necessary to adequately determine the long-term safety profile of either approach. My employment allows me access to pubmed, EBSCO, Medline, etc, and there is scant data for men at the doses we use, which I am sure you are well aware. I appreciate your input.
> 
> In terms of subjective suffering, I was simply going off of admittedly limited anecdotal evidence provided by users across the spectrum; a particularly unscientific approach given my apparent bias as a TRT user.
> 
> As a graduate prepared clinician, I can sometimes come at this from a perspective that is ill-equipped to accept the available data, which is largely composed of field research by gents such as yourself.
> 
> Feedback is appreciated.



I would not call it naivety. I call that a thirst for knowledge. You’re lucky to have access to all that. I’m somewhat jealous lol. 

I think many many people experience rough times during PCT for a number of reasons, one of the biggest ones is simply not doing it right. The timing of PCT is almost as crucial as the protocol for it. People don’t get bloods to confirm success or failure of PCT. people use UGL or research chems for PCT drugs, etc etc. when I used to PCT, I never experienced anything negative st all. It was just business as usual and I continue gaining strength and mass throughout PCT.


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