# Steroid challenge



## tralala (Mar 19, 2015)

Hey guys! My name is Keith and i`m 29 yo. Registered here several days ago, with a random nickname "tralala", started a chat with some members in the chatbox and they advised me to start a thread, so here i am, with this freaky nickname! 

In 2010 I weighted 220 lbs at 5.9 ft. Now after 5 years of training, i`m 165 lbs at less than 10% body fat. Never took any pills or smth. So here i`m a totally fresh AAS NOOB!

Now i have a well balanced 2 times per day training plan, a 8 meal per day nutrition and a healthy 7-8 hours/day sleep. For about a year, i observed that my results have stopped growing. Mostly in any sense, especially the visible results. As i have 165 lbs, i want to achieve at least 190 or 195 lbs and that seems to be... lets say - a quite difficult task.

One of my good old gym buddies, Mitchell - 40 yo that is 250lb at 5.7ft and 4% fat (which is not his best best form, exBB), suggested that he could help me. He is actually a veteran in Body Building and he told me that i am ready to be initiated in AAS (that totally scared me first, till i got several days of explanations, stories, info processing and mutual gym buddies reviews). I know this man for about 3 years now and this is the type of wise guys, that know EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to bodybuilding! So, we started speaking about "my initiation" and he has offered me to reveal his secret! 

Mitchell uses and recomends some brand named BalkanPharmaceuticals. (NOTE! I never heard of ANY TYPE of Pharmacetical companies that manufacture anabolics till a week ago, so i have NO IDEA on - what is going on in THIS world.) He also told me that this Company, lately, has made some considerable investments in researches improving the quality and purity of the product, reducing the side effects. Ensuring me that this company is one from the top AAS manufacturing companies. And for sure the best combo of price and quality. Oh, he also has a "long term relationship" with a verified supplier that will make all the necessary as available as bananas are at really good prices. 

Nevertheless, Mitchell recommended me the following cycles:
*FISRT ONE*
1. Nandrolon D (Nandrolone decanoate)        - 500mg/week for 8 weeks
2. Testosterona E (Testosterone enanthate)   - 750mg/week for 8 weeks
3. Danabol (Methandienone)                       - 30mg/day, 6 days/week, 6 weeks (excluding week #1 and week #8)

*SECOND ONE*
1. Parabolan (Trenbolone)                          - 100mg/day for 6 weeks
2. Strombafort (Stanozolol)                        - 50mg/day for 6 weeks
3. Testosterona P (Testosterone propionate)  - 100mg/day for 6 weeks

*THIRD ONE*
1. Sustamed (Testosterone: Propionate, Isocaproate, Decanoate, Ephenylpropionate) - 500mg/week for 10 weeks
2. Nandrolon D (Nandrolone decanoate)        - 400mg/week for 10 weeks
3. Danabol (Methandienone)                        - 30mg/day for the first 4 weeks
4. Strombafort (Stanozolol)                         - 30mg/day for the next 6 weeks

I`ve done some researches and the first cycle seems to be the lightest, but the other 2 are much more effective.

What would you say? Which one should i choose? Any thoughts? What would you recomend?


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## Shane1974 (Mar 19, 2015)

Test only at 500 mg EW for 12 weeks for your first cycle.

Never heard of that lab.

Welcome to UG.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 19, 2015)

Ok few things need to be clarified.

First Balkan is absolute garbage.

Second a first cycle is test only. You aren't a competitive bodybuilder and those cycles are wildly inappropriate. Take advice from bodybuilders with a grain of salt. Especially "former" ones. They were born with the ability to produce muscle and look good. AAS simply enhances their genetics.  Also nobody walks around at 4% fat. That's near death.

Third - to grow you need excess caloried. No way are you going to grow training twice daily. Cut it down to 4 days per week and you will put on ten pounds in a month or two naturally. It's simple math. 

Eat more, train hard but less. Focus on compound lifts and go heavy with doubles and triples every few weeks. Isolate muscles after.

You don't need jewce. You need calories.


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## Yaya (Mar 19, 2015)

The fact that balkan is mentioned means I won't respond. .

Good like and pray to the one and only GOD


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## Spongy (Mar 19, 2015)

Brother, ditch mitchell...  he's out of his goddamn mind.


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## snake (Mar 19, 2015)

Can I come at this from a different angle brother? Maybe I can backward engineer this thing for you. What are your goals and current stats? BB or PL?


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 19, 2015)

Paul Mitchell??

Balkan...lololol


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## Tren4Life (Mar 19, 2015)

I bet he offered to give you a couple vials for free right?


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## transcend2007 (Mar 19, 2015)

Congrats on losing 55 pounds man.  I am sure you look a feel better.

However, the fact your a train 2 times per day and eating 8 times a day are likely your problem.

Create your goals and objectives.  Create your nutrition plan and workout regimen to support your goals.

It's going to come down to increasing quality calories and lifting heavier less often.

You don't even need to think about AAS at this point.


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## Seeker (Mar 19, 2015)

Nothing more to add here. Pob said everything needed. Parabolan? Lol son real Parabolan ( tren) is some poten shit. Yeah Mitchell is fuking tool for sho.


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## Cobra Strike (Mar 19, 2015)

Are you really 29? Seems you might be living a sheltered life if you are.

Pillar nailed it. I was shaking my head at everything mitchell told you. They are making their products better so there are no sides? Lmao so this basically means they are putting in less or no hormone in the oil 

These guys have given you good advice.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 19, 2015)

Someone post the pic of the vial of Balkan with the fly in it.


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## tralala (Mar 19, 2015)

OK, guys! I didn`t expect to see that much comments at my post, i`m really glad! I`ll try to summarize all in 1 msg. 

Yes, i started training to loose weight when i was like 23-24 and now when i have good cardio results and i feel better than i felt at 22, i decided to make some experiments. By "experiments" i mean - GOING ON THE SAFE PATH, without any side effects. This is why i decided to ask you guys, cuz you know - measure 7 times cut once.

Parabolan you say is a potent tool?

Oh, fly in BalkanPharmaceuticals? LOL!!! Omg!! So you say NEVER to Balkan? Mitch says this guys changed their production equipment lately, maybe somebody tried Balkan this year or late 2014?

And you guys say Mitchell gave me a bad advice?! Well he told me that i can try any of this 3 cycles, but the 1st one shall be the best!

You guys recommend me to cut the training to 4 times per week, this one makes sense. But why the meals? How many meals per day should i have? What should it be?

Ok, if not Balkan - where do you buy your aas from? or maybe we shall make a poll in order to see what distribution is the best!? Maybe that would help others.


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## SFGiants (Mar 19, 2015)

Cycle advice give is dumb as hell!

Deca 8 weeks WTF, one IMO shouldn't run it shorter then 16 weeks and not until a 2nd cycle.

I went from 225 to 255 on 24 weeks of Test and Deca only my second cycle and it was lean mass, started getting fatter trying to gain beyond that though.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 19, 2015)

tralala said:


> OK, guys! I didn`t expect to see that much comments at my post, i`m really glad! I`ll try to summarize all in 1 msg.
> 
> Yes, i started training to loose weight when i was like 23-24 and now when i have good cardio results and i feel better than i felt at 22, i decided to make some experiments. By "experiments" i mean - GOING ON THE SAFE PATH, without any side effects. This is why i decided to ask you guys, cuz you know - measure 7 times cut once.
> 
> ...



Parabolan is definitely not for beginners. Chances are you can't get the real stuff anyway. It's rare and often fakes much like primo and anavar.

Congrats on the weight loss btw. We love seeing people kick their own ass. It shows character that 90% of this world doesn't have. 

As for meal frequency I don't think it matters. The idea that eating more frequently gives you a greater thermic effect from food is false. Eat however many times as you like.  

One thing I will say is I can actually grow faster eating 4 meals per day. This is because the meals are larger and it helps grow my appetite. Or expand my stomach really.  You need to experiment on yourself to find what works best. Best part about less meals is having a damn life lol... eating becomes a part time job not a full time job.

As for jewce nobody is going to give you a source. Anyone who sends you a pm offering to hook you up is likely a scam.


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## Cobra Strike (Mar 19, 2015)

And there is no such thing as changing production equipment. There are vials and then there are filters and a hot plate...you can upgrade to more expensive hot plates but none of that makes a better product. 

Mitchell has given you very short cycles with long esters (time it takes half the hormone to be released in your body). Test e takes about 4 weeks to where you will tell your even on it so why do A 6-8 week cycle? You would be stopping just as the gettin is good. Mitchell doesnt know much about steroids...i dont care how big or cut he is...hes a moron. Not tryin to be a dick either brother..just shooting you straight


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## deadlift666 (Mar 20, 2015)

I couldn't read past the 4% body fat part. :32 (6):


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 20, 2015)

tralala said:


> OK, guys! I didn`t expect to see that much comments at my post, i`m really glad! I`ll try to summarize all in 1 msg.
> 
> Yes, i started training to loose weight when i was like 23-24 and now when i have good cardio results and i feel better than i felt at 22, i decided to make some experiments. By "experiments" i mean - GOING ON THE SAFE PATH, without any side effects. This is why i decided to ask you guys, cuz you know - measure 7 times cut once.
> 
> ...



Someone might have mentioned this already, but you can gain muscle doing two-a-days.  It's unnecessary but as long as you are in excess of your TDEE (around 500 cals) and are hitting your macros close... you will still gain weight.  Period.

Depending on the split you may not be giving yourself enough recovery time... especially being "natty".  I train 6-days a week and have no problem gaining.  Really depends on your split, I suppose.

I also think the whole overtraining thing is over exaggerated.  Name one professional athlete that trains 45 minutes a day...


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 20, 2015)

And just as a side note the GI rating of your carbs has a lot to do with planning your meal frequency/timing IMO.  5-6 meals a day is sufficient for me.  At 165 your maintenance cals divided by 8 makes for some extremely small meals.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 20, 2015)

Tiny Calves said:


> Someone might have mentioned this already, but you can gain muscle doing two-a-days.  It's unnecessary but as long as you are in excess of your TDEE (around 500 cals) and are hitting your macros close... you will still gain weight.  Period.
> 
> Depending on the split you may not be giving yourself enough recovery time... especially being "natty".  I train 6-days a week and have no problem gaining.  Really depends on your split, I suppose.
> 
> I also think the whole overtraining thing is over exaggerated.  Name one professional athlete that trains 45 minutes a day...


Just to be clear I never said over training.

He is 160 and can't gain eating 8 times per day. It would be a hell of a lot easier to train less as the solution. I have walked dozens of other guys thru this same issue.

2 ways to skin a cat sure but eating more is always a bigger headache then training less.

If you train 2x per day and burn 2k cals in the course of the day that's a huge deficit to make up for.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 20, 2015)

Tiny Calves said:


> And just as a side note the GI rating of your carbs has a lot to do with planning your meal frequency/timing IMO.  5-6 meals a day is sufficient for me.  At 165 your maintenance cals divided by 8 makes for some extremely small meals.


GI doesn't mean much when you are eating protein and fat along with it.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> GI doesn't mean much when you are eating protein and fat along with it.



This^^^. It's basically worthless unless you're a diabetic perhaps.


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## graniteman (Mar 20, 2015)

tralala said:


> Hey guys! My name is Keith and i`m 29 yo. Registered here several days ago, with a random nickname "tralala", started a chat with some members in the chatbox and they advised me to start a thread, so here i am, with this freaky nickname!
> 
> In 2010 I weighted 220 lbs at 5.9 ft. Now after 5 years of training, i`m 165 lbs at less than 10% body fat. Never took any pills or smth. So here i`m a totally fresh AAS NOOB!
> 
> ...




Like everyone else, for your 1st , don't pick any of those go with straight test , just make sure you have ancillaries on hand.

For your goals like POB said. You've been at the same routine for a year, shock your system. Cut your W\O's to 3-4 times a week and eat..rest lift ..repeat. 

And, stay away from Balkans caca, google the names of the labs\people who make the stuff you're going to put in your body


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 20, 2015)

Excellent advice given through out this thread.

I will just add that twice a day training can work provided overall volume is controlled.
For example, taking one typical bodybuilding session and splitting it into 2 separate sessions divided between the morning & evening with volume being equal - this can work for those who have the time to incorporate it. One of the advantages being the fact that the 6+hour rest in between sessions should allow overall intensity to be higher, among other benefits.
However, actually putting 2 separate sessions into one day wont work for naturals - the ridiculous level of volume eventually tends to do more bad than good. 

Overtraining is never an issue short term, which is why many people falsely believe it doesn't exist, but over the long term it certainly can be a problem. If a natural lifter is putting 2 days worth of sessions into one day, and overall volume/frequency is equally higher, then overtraining is inevitable IMO.
Using professional athletes isn't a great example since they NEVER go hard all the time - all their routines are periodized with scheduled blocks of lower volume, intensity, etc. Plus most of theme are on drugs, which helps


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 20, 2015)

^^^^ athletes also haven't just jumped into the deep end and go straight to 2 a days. They build up their conditioning and work capacity over time to be able to do so ontop of what you've said


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## ForkLift (Mar 20, 2015)

Man where do guys get these ideas!
This is like the 10th thread in a week all about same stuff

TEST ONLY first cyle, maybe 20-30 gs of D-bol for the first 4 weeks ONLY....so you know what does what!

DEFINATLY NO TREN FOR YOUR 2nd CYCLE!!!!
I didnt run tren til like after like 5 cycles and even then i should prob have waited!

I still to this day monstly run Test only cycle with maybe one oral
these days i run mast a lot with my test. But test is all you wil ever need to be completely honest! Tons of compounds but test is KING!


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 20, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Excellent advice given through out this thread.
> 
> I will just add that twice a day training can work provided overall volume is controlled.
> For example, taking one typical bodybuilding session and splitting it into 2 separate sessions divided between the morning & evening with volume being equal - this can work for those who have the time to incorporate it. One of the advantages being the fact that the 6+hour rest in between sessions should allow overall intensity to be higher, among other benefits.
> ...


So like for chest work the right pec in the am and the left pec pm?


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## NbleSavage (Mar 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> So like for chest work the right pec in the am and the left pec pm?



I do full body workouts split by side.

Problem is when I miss a day, I get lopsided...


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> So like for chest work the right pec in the am and the left pec pm?



LOL

I was thinking more along the lines of one session for the compounds & the other for the accessory stuff, or one heavy & one light session, etc.
But I don't like the training one muscle group per day style anyway so...

And, as if it requires confirmation, I agree with doc about building work capacity first


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## Bullfrog (Mar 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> So like for chest work the right pec in the am and the left pec pm?



I personally do 2 target area per day (like back and bis or chest and tris) but I split each area into its own workout so instead of doing both in one session I do back in the am and then bis in the evening.  This works better for me because I can more thoroughly train the area I'm focusing on and not run into 90 minute - 2 hour single sessions.  I choose to do this because it keeps Cortisol (stress hormone) levels lower.  My impression is that levels rise after training for about 1 hour to a point where the workout can become counterproductive.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 20, 2015)

Bullfrog said:


> I personally do 2 target area per day (like back and bis or chest and tris) but I split each area into its own workout so instead of doing both in one session I do back in the am and then bis in the evening.  This works better for me because I can more thoroughly train the area I'm focusing on and not run into 90 minute - 2 hour single sessions.  I choose to do this because it keeps Cortisol (stress hormone) levels lower.  My impression is that levels rise after training for about 1 hour to a point where the workout can become counterproductive.



Cortisol is one of the stress/adaptation hormones required for making progress. It can be used as a measure of workout efficacy in some cases. Too many people are afraid of cortisol when they have no reason to be.


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## tralala (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks for your advises guys! I spoke today with a friend that is a nutritionist and she told me that the 8 meal per day has accelerated my metabolism.

The second issue is the training. I love to run and my day starts at 6am and shortly after that i`m running my daily "morning 10km". This distance is no big deal for me. After the wake-up cardio, i`m doing my stretches and after that some light weight lifting, in order to "start the body". The second training is based on weight-lifting only. 

So yes! I have to stop running, cuz that burns a lot of calories and slowly going from 2 times per day to 4 times per week training sessions. And of course food - the same chickens, eggs and all that stuff, the same amount just compiled into 4 meals per day. And that should help without AAS. So this is a work for another 6-8weeks


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## mickems (Mar 20, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Cortisol is one of the stress/adaptation hormones required for making progress. It can be used as a measure of workout efficacy in some cases. Too many people are afraid of cortisol when they have no reason to be.



I heard people say (parrot) they're afraid of cortisol because it causes fat gain. I even read that because coffee raises levels, it can cause you to gain fat. I have been drinking it almost everyday for the last 4 yrs. and have not seen any fat gain. Besides what I already have. lol.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 20, 2015)

tralala said:


> Thanks for your advises guys! I spoke today with a friend that is a nutritionist and she told me that the 8 meal per day has accelerated my metabolism.
> 
> The second issue is the training. I love to run and my day starts at 6am and shortly after that i`m running my daily "morning 10km". This distance is no big deal for me. After the wake-up cardio, i`m doing my stretches and after that some light weight lifting, in order to "start the body". The second training is based on weight-lifting only.
> 
> So yes! I have to stop running, cuz that burns a lot of calories and slowly going from 2 times per day to 4 times per week training sessions. And of course food - the same chickens, eggs and all that stuff, the same amount just compiled into 4 meals per day. And that should help without AAS. So this is a work for another 6-8weeks



Your meal frequency has nothing to do with your speed of metabolism. I would start by seeking out a new nutritionist if you've hired his one.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 20, 2015)

mickems said:


> I heard people say (parrot) they're afraid of cortisol because it causes fat gain. I even read that because coffee raises levels, it can cause you to gain fat. I have been drinking it almost everyday for the last 4 yrs. and have not seen any fat gain. Besides what I already have. lol.



Cortisol can cause fat gain but that would require chronically elevated levels not acute elevation which we're talking about here. Cortisol is partly responsible for deciding which energy substrate you use to fuel activity (carbs, fat, or protein) and how much is required to fuel the activity. I agree it gets way too much negative connotation on BB forums for no reason. In healthy individuals, those without chronically elevated levels, the stronger he cortisol response from training or fasting the stronger the anabolic signal at your next meal as a compensatory effect.


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## mickems (Mar 20, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Cortisol can cause fat gain but that would require chronically elevated levels not acute elevation which we're talking about here. Cortisol is partly responsible for deciding which energy substrate you use to fuel activity (carbs, fat, or protein) and how much is required to fuel the activity. I agree it gets way too much negative connotation on BB forums for no reason. In healthy individuals, those without chronically elevated levels, the stronger he cortisol response from training or fasting the stronger the anabolic signal at your next meal as a compensatory effect.



thanks, Doc. you're a plethora of knowledge. much appreciated.


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## ToolSteel (Mar 20, 2015)

Good stuff.


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> GI doesn't mean much when you are eating protein and fat along with it.



Maybe you can elaborate on this?  I have a very basic understanding of diet/nutrition.  Seems like higher GI over like 4 meals a day would make it more likely to have some protein breakdown.  Like I said, I'm not an expert.  It's a legitimate question.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 20, 2015)

Tiny Calves said:


> Maybe you can elaborate on this?  I have a very basic understanding of diet/nutrition.  Seems like higher GI over like 4 meals a day would make it more likely to have some protein breakdown.  Like I said, I'm not an expert.  It's a legitimate question.



Protein breakdown, assuming you mean for energy will really only occur in pretty extreme circumstances.  Your body holds energy as glycogen in the muscles as well as a back up store in the liver.  The notion that if you don't eat every x number of hours or else you will become catabolic is just false. This isn't to say the old "eat every three hours" is somehow bad, it just isn't necessary.

The glycemic index is mostly irrelevant for a normal healthy person because when you introduce fats to the high GI carb it's digestion slows.  Therefore the resulting increase in blood sugar will not rise as sharply.


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## automatondan (Mar 20, 2015)

tralala said:


> OK, guys! I didn`t expect to see that much comments at my post, i`m really glad! I`ll try to summarize all in 1 msg.
> 
> Yes, i started training to loose weight when i was like 23-24 and now when i have good cardio results and i feel better than i felt at 22, i decided to make some experiments. By "experiments" i mean - GOING ON THE SAFE PATH, without any side effects. This is why i decided to ask you guys, cuz you know - measure 7 times cut once.
> 
> ...



Dude, first off, welcome to the UG.... Congrats on your weight loss and fitness. Secondly, if this "friend" of yours is telling you, (someone who has never used AAS) that you can choose *ONE* of those *three* suggestions, it is because he wants to make more money off you. Testosterone @ 500 mg per week (250mg twice weekly) for 12 weeks (test alone + proper pct) is more than enough 'help' for a 1st time user. I suggest you reread all the advice the brothers have given you man, Pillar's advice is spot-on and correct 99.8% of the time. You may just need to up your calories and train less than you currently are.... Just my opinion though...


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## tralala (Mar 26, 2015)

automatonDan said:


> Dude, first off, welcome to the UG.... Congrats on your weight loss and fitness. Secondly, if this "friend" of yours is telling you, (someone who has never used AAS) that you can choose *ONE* of those *three* suggestions, it is because he wants to make more money off you. Testosterone @ 500 mg per week (250mg twice weekly) for 12 weeks (test alone + proper pct) is more than enough 'help' for a 1st time user. I suggest you reread all the advice the brothers have given you man, Pillar's advice is spot-on and correct 99.8% of the time. You may just need to up your calories and train less than you currently are.... Just my opinion though...



Everyone, thanks for your advice! Which one you mean by test only? Testosterone P? I? D? E? or the complex? and what does it mean "proper *pct*"?

And what about the substance? Where shall i search for it? where is "the best shop"? Or BalkanPharmaceuticals are ok? Cause i don`t have any other source and on the internet i can split the opinions in 2 - the ones that tried BPharm, done great and their next cycle is Bpharm only; and the ones that say it`s total rubbish!


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## Tonks79 (Mar 26, 2015)

Welcome pal, regarding pct there is a thread on here with everything you need to know about it, also I believe you should read up on aas a lot more before starting a cycle pal.


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## BEASTZ6 (Apr 4, 2015)

For a small guy like you, 250 mg/wk of test E or Test Cyp with a dbol kicker for weeks 1-6 is plenty. Run it for 12 weeks and do a proper PCT.


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