# Difference in peak and trough



## Gruntwerkz (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm on 200mg a week test-c split Tuesday morning and Friday evening, so 100mg every 3.5 days.

My last labs I did to find my trough, so I had my blood drawn on Friday prior to taking my shot, last dose before that was the 100mg Tuesday morning. Reading was 935ng/dl.

Now here's my question, well doing an every 3.5 day protocol is there a substantial difference between peak and trough? I've heard folks say before typically with that type of pinning protocol it only tends to be a difference of a couple hundred points.

So would it be safe to assume my peak is around 1100ish? I know it's speculation but curious of the input.

I ask because I won't be able to get a new lab done right away to test peak, insurance will only cover so many in a row and my regular family physician is just doing this right now as a favor since IMT never even sent me my lab orders as promised, I don't want to overly bug her because she's already on a limb for me by doing the labs on a condition she isn't treating. Hopefully I get the doc at the VA to pick it up then this will all cost nothing. I may have to bug the GP for a vial of test to hold me over until VA appointment, I'm nearly out of my pharmacy grade from that other asshole.

I would hate to have to use the UGL test-e I have because chances are it's dosed higher then 250mg/ml, I say this because when I first started I did self TRT and this brand of UGL was giving me a 700 trough off 100mg a week. Then I went thru that sponsor to get RX pharmacy grade in which 120mg gave me a 395 trough, then 200mg the 900 range. So clearly the UGL was dosed higher.

This would make it hard to be dialed in again... my GP wouldn't do the labs with self TRT so I was forced to drive to PA to use the privatemdlabs, I live in NY so they don't provided here.

So having the RX is everything to me and I know exactly what I need of test c pharmacy grade to get a healthy level. So hopefully my GP will at least RX me one vial until I can get to the VA.

Sorry for the rant on the end and all the gibberish.


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## DF (Oct 17, 2016)

Your best bet is to self pay for blood work.  Got to privatemdlabs.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 17, 2016)

Get bloods done yourself like DF is saying. I like labsmd but you have several options. 

If your trough is 935ng/dl then it's very likely your peak is above 1100. That's too high for true TRT.


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## Gruntwerkz (Oct 17, 2016)

I can't legally use privatemdlabs in NY, my state has crap laws. I have to drive to PA in order to have labs done which results in a 7 hour round trip, I did it on self TRT and it's tough depending on schedule. If I'm not blasting then having the labs ordered is so much easier but I may have no choice to see current peak.

Do you really believe when doing every 3.5 days there would be such a difference in peak that it went over 1100? Looks like I may have to step back to maybe 160mg as 120mg only gave me a 395 trough.

As long as the va picks up the treatment I will be able to get the labs consistently for free as well as the scripts.

I'll plan ahead for a road trip I do suppose to find peak, unless GP orders me a vial of test then I can get her to pull it again.

For TRT purpose what should trough not exceed? I know the cap normal total test is around 1000-1100 depending on the lab reference range.

Thanks for the input.


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## snake (Oct 17, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Get bloods done yourself like DF is saying. I like labsmd but you have several options.
> 
> If your trough is 935ng/dl then it's very likely your peak is above 1100. That's too high for true TRT.



Well maybe on the upper level Doc but not unheard of. 1,100 still can fall into range. Not to start a TRT debate but I don't want him to think he's that far over.


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## snake (Oct 17, 2016)

With respect to the highs and lows; I wouldn't worry about it. Most guys will not see any problems with one 200 mg dose of Cyp a week. It's not the difference in the peak and valley but more about if that valley drops you too low.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 17, 2016)

snake said:


> Well maybe on the upper level Doc but not unheard of. 1,100 still can fall into range. Not to start a TRT debate but I don't want him to think he's that far over.



I don't think he's very far over the 1100 mark either but I do think he is.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 17, 2016)

Gruntwerkz said:


> I can't legally use privatemdlabs in NY, my state has crap laws. I have to drive to PA in order to have labs done which results in a 7 hour round trip, I did it on self TRT and it's tough depending on schedule. If I'm not blasting then having the labs ordered is so much easier but I may have no choice to see current peak.
> 
> Do you really believe when doing every 3.5 days there would be such a difference in peak that it went over 1100? Looks like I may have to step back to maybe 160mg as 120mg only gave me a 395 trough.
> 
> ...



One option is to try paying privatemdlabs with a visa gift card and using a bogus PA or CT address. I've personaly never been asked to show ID for these things. 

Yes I think it's over 1100. I'm not sayin you're at 2000+ or anything like that but over te 1100 mark. 

TRT isn't so much about treating the numbers but more the symptoms. Ideally, you'd use the lowest dose possible that alleviates any hypogonadal symptoms you suffer from and gets you somewhere within normal physiological range. Some might get relief from low test numbers where others might need a bit more.


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## Gruntwerkz (Oct 18, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> One option is to try paying privatemdlabs with a visa gift card and using a bogus PA or CT address. I've personaly never been asked to show ID for these things.
> 
> Yes I think it's over 1100. I'm not sayin you're at 2000+ or anything like that but over te 1100 mark.
> 
> TRT isn't so much about treating the numbers but more the symptoms. Ideally, you'd use the lowest dose possible that alleviates any hypogonadal symptoms you suffer from and gets you somewhere within normal physiological range. Some might get relief from low test numbers where others might need a bit more.



This is actually how I did it, minus the pre payed card. I have a family member in PA so I used his address for the billing address on one of my credit cards, I do the paperless option anyway so no mail to annoy him.

I was not ID'd at all either, it's just a long haul as the closest is 3 hours one way so it totals out at about 7 hours. It's really not too bad but if the schedule is tight (wife and 3 babies) then it can be a bit of pain, but I do and will do it when I have too.

Like I said above I'll know mid November if the VA will take over the care and if they do then I'm golding. The prices of all this stuff adds up quickly as I have no standard civilian insurance, anything outside the VA is on me. In the mean time I will be able to get one vial from my GP or family doc, civilian doc or whatever you want to call them, she's actually my wife's doctor but she helps me out when the Veterans Afairs drag their feet around. She has been the one ordering my lab scripts to get them done in NY since that TRT clinic ignored me after I paid them.

The thing is I feel great on 200mg a week, at 120mg a week I didn't feel much different then my original 149ng/dl honestly. So all numbers aside I feel good on this dose and my hematocrit and hemoglobin have not been an issue at all. But maybe I should considering dropping it a hair to see if I can still get the same benefits?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2016)

Gruntwerkz said:


> This is actually how I did it, minus the pre payed card. I have a family member in PA so I used his address for the billing address on one of my credit cards, I do the paperless option anyway so no mail to annoy him.
> 
> I was not ID'd at all either, it's just a long haul as the closest is 3 hours one way so it totals out at about 7 hours. It's really not too bad but if the schedule is tight (wife and 3 babies) then it can be a bit of pain, but I do and will do it when I have too.
> 
> ...



Yea that's a hike and then some just to get bloods lol. Hopefully the VA takes care of you especially considering your service to the country. It's a shame they drag their feet...

The alleviation of hypogonadal symptoms thru TRT can take some time. It isn't like a light switch where you'll feel better instantly. You'll most likely feel better at a higher dose, maybe almost euphoric in nature, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the optimal dose for you. We all feel better on a blast when running 500+my per week than when not on. If I were in your shoes I would probably drop to around 120-150mg/wk and give it 4-6wks or more before reassessing the dose and get bloods after the. 4-6wks to check your levels. I'm not saying you won't need a higher dose but in the field of medicine it's always best to titrate up rather than down unless it's something life threatening. 

Something else to monitor every now and then would be you cholesterol and lipids. High doses of test can affect these values and potentially cause hypercholesterolemia. It's just something to check once in a while bc hematocrit and hemoglobin aren't the only health markers affected by trt/steroids. 

Good luck!


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## Gruntwerkz (Oct 18, 2016)

Hey thanks for your input and information, this reply might end up lengthy but I'm going to try to explain easily as possible how it's all went so far for me.

I orginally started TRT on my own middle of April this year, so I've been on TRT for a little while now. I started off using UGL test e at 100mg a week and arimidex at .25mg twice a week. This gave me a test level of 730ng/dl which was right between the middle of trough and peak, so technically it was 12 hours past the initial 48 hour peak. I felt great this way but I did want to get on legal treatment this way doing labs would be easier, like I said in NY it's harder. I did this for a couple months, the self TRT that is.

Fast forward to wanting to get legal for labs and just general health reasons, 8 wanted to be able to be honest and not be labeled as abusing steroids in my medical files. So with that said I had found the ology which led me too IMT of course, seemed like many great reviews on it - now I realize they delete the bad ones. I picked up a 4 month package for TRT that included running the test at 120mg a week, aromasin at 12.5mg ED and hCG at 500iu a week total (split into two shots). My e2 came in perfect but my test trough was 395ng/dl and I had lost that good feeling I had when I was running the UGL test giving me the 736, most of the low T symptoms returned just not as severe as before any treatment. This is when they suggested I bump to the 200mg a week that led to the 900's trough range, but also led to feeling great again.

If I were to look back on the time frame I would say the self TRT lasted the about 3-4 months, so long enough to know I felt good.

Now I'm not disagreeing with your advice, I want to be able to use the least amount possible to obtain a healthy total T but most importantly feel good. I just didn't want you to think I started right off at such a high dose. When I tried the 120mg it was pretty rough, and that was directly after my self TRT with UGL.

So here's my dilemma now that I explained how it's went this far and the doses I've expiremented with, I have to way of knowing if the UGL was dosed accurately of course, and giving the fact that 100mg gave me a TT of 700s versus 120mg of pharmacy grade giving me 300s I assume the UGL was dosed extra high. BUT.....

I get that letter from wells which clearly shows they mess stuff up sometimes right? So now I have to speculate if their test-c was accurately dosed as well, I've been told some compounding pharmacies can be off and now knowing what I do about ology I could see tod using a pharm that under doses products just so they have to purchase more thru him by using a higher dose. This is speculation obviously but I certainly don't trust wells was accurately dosed either.

So now when I get a vial from a regular pharmacy like CVS or the like and it's Watson so I know it's accurately dosed, I have to dial in again. This will at least show me if wells was dosed right but I suspect not, just sucks that being a shady pharmacy that I can't count on my test results from them.

With that said I think I would back down to 120mg again when I get the real vial, then labs should show from there. At least I know about how much aromasin works for me.

My lipids were decent prior to TRT but then I over did arimidex and that hurt it for a bit, since switching back to aromasin and fixing diet of course my lipids have been pretty good but I would like to see my HDL higher. Blood pressure has also been stable.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2016)

Gruntwerkz said:


> Hey thanks for your input and information, this reply might end up lengthy but I'm going to try to explain easily as possible how it's all went so far for me.
> 
> I orginally started TRT on my own middle of April this year, so I've been on TRT for a little while now. I started off using UGL test e at 100mg a week and arimidex at .25mg twice a week. This gave me a test level of 730ng/dl which was right between the middle of trough and peak, so technically it was 12 hours past the initial 48 hour peak. I felt great this way but I did want to get on legal treatment this way doing labs would be easier, like I said in NY it's harder. I did this for a couple months, the self TRT that is.
> 
> ...



Now you know why we say "Fukk 'ology" here. 

Good on ya mate (I feel like NbleSavage when I speak like that) for going about this the right way. There's many good members here who can help you along your journey of getting everything dialed in right.


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## Gruntwerkz (Oct 19, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Now you know why we say "Fukk 'ology" here.
> 
> Good on ya mate (I feel like NbleSavage when I speak like that) for going about this the right way. There's many good members here who can help you along your journey of getting everything dialed in right.



I sure do!

So ultimately to answer to my question is that it is possible to swing over 200 points between peak and trough? On an E3.5D schedule that is, just clearing it up because before on the ology some folks were telling me my peak wouldn't be much different at all. Obviously now I question anything I ever read there.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2016)

Gruntwerkz said:


> I sure do!
> 
> So ultimately to answer to my question is that it is possible to swing over 200 points between peak and trough? On an E3.5D schedule that is, just clearing it up because before on the ology some folks were telling me my peak wouldn't be much different at all. Obviously now I question anything I ever read there.



I believe it is possible, yes, although to verify or discredit it in your specific case blood work is needed. I understand how difficult it is for you to get bloodwork lol


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## Gruntwerkz (Oct 19, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I believe it is possible, yes, although to verify or discredit it in your specific case blood work is needed. I understand how difficult it is for you to get bloodwork lol



Thank you, and yes I understand it's possible it could be a big swing or very little depending on person. I was just looking for the general consensus that I'm likely pushing the upper end of the TRT limit.

I deffinetly have room to back off a bit, I'll make the haul as well to find my peak once the adjustment has taken effect. Don't see much point in checking peak now if I'm lowering the dose next week.

Thanks again for all the help.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2016)

Gruntwerkz said:


> Thank you, and yes I understand it's possible it could be a big swing or very little depending on person. I was just looking for the general consensus that I'm likely pushing the upper end of the TRT limit.
> 
> I deffinetly have room to back off a bit, I'll make the haul as well to find my peak once the adjustment has taken effect. Don't see much point in checking peak now if I'm lowering the dose next week.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.



Not a problem. Anytime you adjust the dose, I'd wait 4-6wks before doing bloods so new steady state levels can be reached. Also, even without knowing the actual peak level, knowing you have such a high trough level tells us you're already pushing the TRT boundary so to speak. Again, what matters most is alleviating the symptoms and doing so with the minimal dose possible so my advice to you is not to only chase the number on the bloodwork bu to also rely on your subjective feelings of the symptoms as well. And be honest with yourself as there's a difference between taking enough to alleviate symptoms and taking a "little more" to feel amazing (not saying you won't be just pointing it out for others reading as well)


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