# Pecs vs Front Delts



## Viduus (Feb 23, 2019)

I’ve mentioned this in past threads but I’m still having issues with it so I apologize in advance for the repeat topic.

Anyone have any good tricks for engaging your pecs instead of your front delts? Other then Cable and machine flys, I always struggle to connect with my pecs and not engage my front delts. 

I’ve improved a lot but it’s still really holding me back. Thinking of dropping the weight real low and just work on feel for a bit.


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## BRICKS (Feb 23, 2019)

Check out some of the Jeff Cavaliere vids (Athlean X). I think he's got some stuff that may help you.


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## November Ajax (Feb 23, 2019)

BRICKS said:


> Check out some of the Jeff Cavaliere vids (Athlean X). I think he's got some stuff that may help you.


Lol I thought the same thing.

He made a video on that specific topic. He was mostly mocking another youtuber who copied his content (Vshred), but he does present an exercise that does what you are looking for.

Edit: here it is: https://youtu.be/NJD3WyAyzzE


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## Trump (Feb 23, 2019)

Try a 10lb plate squeeze your hands either side of it as hard as you can and press it. Have used it as a finisher to burn my pec end of chest day. You can use bigger weight I suppose but you won’t get the same stretch at the bottom.

Also while I had a shoulder injury I could still press with my elbows tucked right in. It seemed to take away the stress on my shoulder and more onto pec and tris


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## bigdog (Feb 23, 2019)

I do dumbell champagne presses. I do a regular set of db presses then rotate the dbs together close right into champagne press. Basically 20 reps per set, 10 regular, 10 champagne. Lights my pecs up.


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## Gadawg (Feb 23, 2019)

Do you have long arms?  This is pretty typical for taller people.  Ive found that doing more dumbells and less bar allows for more pec engagement in those situations.  You must have to mess with the width, depth, etc til you find the sweet spot


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## CJ (Feb 23, 2019)

Maybe try burning out your front delts before you hit chest. The delts will be fatigued, so the chest will hopefully pick up the slack, theoretically.


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## Gadawg (Feb 23, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Maybe try burning out your front delts before you hit chest. The delts will be fatigued, so the chest will hopefully pick up the slack, theoretically.



Complete opposite


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## Viduus (Feb 23, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Maybe try burning out your front delts before you hit chest. The delts will be fatigued, so the chest will hopefully pick up the slack, theoretically.



I’m up for all suggestions but my gut tells me it’s more of a mind muscle issue. I believe I really need to focus on engaging my pecs since I habitually use delts. What your suggesting could work but my fear is it would reinforce my bad habits and I’d just feel fatigued delts.

But I guess since I’m asking for help I should consider all options


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## BRICKS (Feb 23, 2019)

Big hard squeeze at the top.  Do you train at home or public gym? Wondering if you have access to a hammer chest machine.


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## Viduus (Feb 23, 2019)

BRICKS said:


> Big hard squeeze at the top.  Do you train at home or public gym? Wondering if you have access to a hammer chest machine.



Both, I bought a gym last year 

What would you suggest with the hammer piece?


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## hulksmash (Feb 23, 2019)

Viduus said:


> I’ve mentioned this in past threads but I’m still having issues with it so I apologize in advance for the repeat topic.
> 
> Anyone have any good tricks for engaging your pecs instead of your front delts? Other then Cable and machine flys, I always struggle to connect with my pecs and not engage my front delts.
> 
> I’ve improved a lot but it’s still really holding me back. Thinking of dropping the weight real low and just work on feel for a bit.



*READ EVERY WORD OR HULK BREAK YOU!​*
Triceps had their turn and thread, now for pecs. This all you need:

1. *Feeling* your pecs is the only thing that matters.

2. Get rid of every exercise except for flat bench+flat bench flyes.

3. Only use dumbbells.

4. The _stretch_ at the *P. Major Sternocostal head* is your target:






The _pectoralis major_'s insertion point is at the *sternocostal head*, as you can see below. It attaches to the humerus:





Notice in Pic #1 the *clavicular* head lays _above_ the sternocostal head. It is easier to activate the clavicular head. *Your clavicles play a role*:

The anterior delt's origin is the *clavicles*:





*Your body engages your delts more than your pecs because of your clavicles and your training choices!* Now you know why and have your rules above.

*Hulk, how do I make my body recruit my pecs, rather than my delts?*

1. Go as far down _as possible_ in your DB flat bench press during the negative (eccentric) phase of your rep.

2. The *stretch* at the bottom activates your pectoralis major and minor, and withdraws delt usage.

3. The wider your arms are apart, the bigger the stretch. Go as comfortably wide as you can *without ruining bench press form*.

4. Always have a wide gap between your fists during flyes. Never have your arms locked straight out during flyes. Think of "bear hugs".

5. The width that gives you the biggest *stretch* at the bottom of reps during flyes is the width to use.

6. Go as far down _as possible_ in your DB flat bench Flyes during the negative (eccentric) phase of your rep.

7. Never go too light.

8. It's too heavy if you can't maintain width during reps.

*That's all, folks! Remember, the most important thing is using width, with plenty of weight, and causing the stretch at your pecs' insertion point. You'll no longer have those pesky delts getting in your way.*


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## BRICKS (Feb 23, 2019)

Viduus said:


> Both, I bought a gym last year
> 
> What would you suggest with the hammer piece?



 Sit sideways on the hammer chest machine, can be the hammer flat or incline, and basically do a single arm crossover/press.  This pretty much takes the front delt out of it and you get good adductuon/internal rotation of the humerous.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt6KSr4BOBN/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=x12ompy2g7la

Not a big fan of Joey Swole, but I did these the other day and gonna keep them for a while.


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## hulksmash (Feb 23, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> *READ EVERY WORD OR HULK BREAK YOU!​*
> Triceps had their turn and thread, now for pecs. This all you need:
> 
> 1. *Feeling* your pecs is the only thing that matters.
> ...



I forgot to add the reason I only picked those 2 exercises+DBs only:

1. Machines and even a barbell puts you on a fixed plane, and you can not escape the noticeable activation of your anterior delts.

2. DBs are use solely for the same principle as #1; they allow a better range of motion and a way to escape your body's preference for its anterior delts.

Go kill that chest!

Addendum: BRICKS above also utilizes my same tactic.


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## Viduus (Feb 23, 2019)

BRICKS said:


> Sit sideways on the hammer chest machine, can be the hammer flat or incline, and basically do a single arm crossover/press.  This pretty much takes the front delt out of it and you get good adductuon/internal rotation of the humerous.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt6KSr4BOBN/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=x12ompy2g7la
> 
> Not a big fan of Joey Swole, but I did these the other day and gonna keep them for a while.



This makes a lot of sense to me. I do single arm cable work in a similar fashion for exactly that reason. This looks easier to get better angles on though. Thanks!


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## Viduus (Feb 23, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> *READ EVERY WORD OR HULK BREAK YOU!​*
> 
> Triceps had their turn and thread, now for pecs. This all you need:
> 
> ...



I’ll give this a try! Interesting idea to use the stretch as a mental cue on what tomcontract. Almost like the trick of having someone touch the muscle. Might not be what you meant but I like it!


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## Gadawg (Feb 23, 2019)

Several studies have been done that concluded that 30 degrees on incline is optimal for overall pectoral activation.  That's typically the first pin on an adjustable bench.  If I cared nothing about strength on the bench press and was only a bodybuilder, this would be the angle I would focus all my major pressing on.  Give it a try, youll feel it.


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## hulksmash (Feb 23, 2019)

Viduus said:


> I’ll give this a try! Interesting idea to use the stretch as a mental cue on what tomcontract. Almost like the trick of having someone touch the muscle. Might not be what you meant but I like it!



Not a bullseye at all, Viduus LOL

Your pecs don't engage because of your delts, and your delts have 1 thing in common with your pecs:

They both are joined with your clavicles. Take your clavicles out of the picture to erase your delts. Focus *only* on your pectoralis major insertion point. How? By doing what I wrote.

The *stretch*=your P. Major+minor are engaged more than anything else.

You were partly right! *The stretch is your tool to create mind-muscle connection* and your brain's signal to engage the pec more. If your brain doesn't utilize your pecs, it would rip off the humerus if you were to continue to stretch further and further.

Yes, your pecs are already activated, but we want the delts to be benched.

DB flat bench press and DB flat bench flyes+the rules are the answer to what you want.


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## hulksmash (Feb 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> Several studies have been done that concluded that 30 degrees on incline is optimal for overall pectoral activation.  That's typically the first pin on an adjustable bench.  If I cared nothing about strength on the bench press and was only a bodybuilder, this would be the angle I would focus all my major pressing on.  Give it a try, youll feel it.



I love studies but I would die refuting it and proving it wrong lol


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## Uncle manny (Feb 23, 2019)

You’re always going to activate your anterior delts while pressing. If you’re tending to feel it in the delts more than chest, you’re delts could be really tight and active and kind of take over in you’re pressing movements. What you can do to counteract this is throw in some rowing in your warm up get some blood in your rear delts and upper back. Also stretch your anterior delt. Pull your left hand behind your back using you’re right hand. You can also lean your anterior delt onto a lacross ball. What the stretching does is kind of turn off the muscle and makes it a bit harder to activate allowing you to focus on the mind muscle connection of your dumbell press. I’d try that out first then on to what they listed above.


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## hulksmash (Feb 23, 2019)

Viduus, I also have proof backing up my claims:

"...*the anterior deltoid...are more proficient at performing shoulder flexion rather than horizontal adduction*...

...Consequently, the contribution of the clavicular head and anterior deltoid during horizontal adduction (the horizontal bench press) would have been limited, thus placing greater force demands on the *sternocostal head* of the pectoralis major. *These greater force demands may account for the highest activation levels of the sternocostal head occurring during the flat bench press*..."

1. Delts suck at doing adduction° during flat bench

2. The *sternocostal* head, which you target by getting the *stretch* at your pec's insertion point, is activated MORE by doing what I told you to do.

3. Your pectorals will be the chosen, activated muscle due to #1 and #2 above.

°adduction=portion of bench press where you lift the dumbbells up from the bottom, where you get the stretch

Source is:

An Electromyography Analysis of 3 Muscles Surrounding the Shoulder Joint During the Performance of a Chest Press Exercise at Several Angles

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/...lectromyography_Analysis_of_3_Muscles.31.aspx


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## November Ajax (Feb 24, 2019)

I'd also like to say that Jeff doesn't really focus on strength training, since it seems like his qualifications and experience make him more of a rehabilitation expert.

Like Hulk said, I would just focus on the bench press (incline or flat) since it allows you to work with proper volume and intensity. Maybe add flies if you think you could use more volume and some of you muscles (triceps or delts) are not allowing you to do more sets or use more weight on the bench.


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## hulksmash (Feb 24, 2019)

November Ajax said:


> I'd also like to say that Jeff doesn't really focus on strength training, since it seems like his qualifications and experience make him more of a rehabilitation expert.
> 
> Like Hulk said, I would just focus on the bench press (incline or flat) since it allows you to work with proper volume and intensity. Maybe add flies if you think you could use more volume and some of you muscles (triceps or delts) are not allowing you to do more sets or use more weight on the bench.



Doing _anything_ other than flat bench press or flat bench flyes will cause the opposite of what he wants.

Incline does not belong at all; hell even the study backed up my belief and intuition that ONLY flat bench will keep the delts out.

The study also showed how the anterior deltoid and clavicular head were used *more* than the sternocostal head. *The sternocostal head of the pec is his ticket to pec activation and delt withdrawal!*


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## November Ajax (Feb 24, 2019)

I'm not just talking about leaving the delts out, I'm talking about overall chest development. There is really no point of leaving the delts out, just do more bench and less lateral raises if chest development and strength is what you want.


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## Viduus (Feb 24, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> Doing _anything_ other than flat bench press or flat bench flyes will cause the opposite of what he wants.
> 
> Incline does not belong at all; hell even the study backed up my belief and intuition that ONLY flat bench will keep the delts out.
> 
> The study also showed how the anterior deltoid and clavicular head were used *more* than the sternocostal head. *The sternocostal head of the pec is his ticket to pec activation and delt withdrawal!*



Gotta agree with hulk on this one. I actually prefer incline because it feels better to me - since it involves more delts 

I’ve started decline benching to overcompensate. I’ll stick to what Hulk and Bricks mentioned for now. Thanks guys.


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## hulksmash (Feb 24, 2019)

Viduus said:


> Gotta agree with hulk on this one. I actually prefer incline because it feels better to me - since it involves more delts
> 
> I’ve started decline benching to overcompensate. I’ll stick to what Hulk and Bricks mentioned for now. Thanks guys.



I understand the logic you used: if no angle=less delts, then i will do a decline and erase delts 100!

Stick to flat. Decline=lose pec activation. Your go right back to your problem, and decline just means different muscles steal the spotlight from your pecs.


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## November Ajax (Feb 24, 2019)

May I ask why you want to isolate your chest so badly? Why not just stick to bench press and its variations and simply do less volume for your delts?


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## hulksmash (Feb 24, 2019)

November Ajax said:


> May I ask why you want to isolate your chest so badly? Why not just stick to bench press and its variations and simply do less volume for your delts?



Not Viduus, but I know where hes coming from.

Sometimes you have to isolate a muscle group or else you won't have proper mind-muscle connection with it. Your body can favor one muscle over the other, so isolation is required.


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## Viduus (Feb 24, 2019)

November Ajax said:


> May I ask why you want to isolate your chest so badly? Why not just stick to bench press and its variations and simply do less volume for your delts?



This is actually what I’m trying to do. The problem is a majority’s of the work being done on my flat bench is by my delts instead of my pecs. It’s a psychological issue, my brain subconsciously fires my front delts instead of my pecs.

The heavier I try to go the more instinct takes over and it makes the problem worse. I’ve slowly fixed my basic form since I never learned to pin my shoulders back properly. The bad habit is still there with the muscle recruitment. 

Good news is that my delts are a great body part for me, bad news is my chest needs a hell of a lot of work :/


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## transcend2007 (Feb 24, 2019)

Good thread ... nice to see a thread a out working out ... lol

I was going to contribute add declines ... I've been doing them the past 6 weeks ... never done it before ... I personally think flat bench is overrated (outside of powerlifting) ... I'm currently doing inclines and declines only ... hard to argue with Dorian Yates ... even though many will ...


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## Jin (Feb 24, 2019)

Use less weight and focus on squeezing your pecs at the top and expanding the chest as the bottom. You have to get form and mind/muscle connection down before you go heavier.


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## hulksmash (Feb 24, 2019)

Jin said:


> Use less weight and focus on squeezing your pecs at the top and expanding the chest as the bottom. You have to get form and mind/muscle connection down before you go heavier.



100% agree with the last sentence!

People don't stress feeling and mind-muscle connection enough when threads pop up.

It's the most important thing and separates winners from losers.


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## El Gringo (Feb 24, 2019)

Iso grip dumbbell presses. I've injured my front delt many times. One time it was so bad i could barely push a door open. Forget about bench pressing or any chest movements, but when I gripped the weight with my thumbs pointed up (iso)  rather than diagonal (flat) I felt no pain in my shoulders and could work my chest.


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## Viduus (Feb 24, 2019)

El Gringo said:


> Iso grip dumbbell presses. I've injured my front delt many times. One time it was so bad i could barely push a door open. Forget about bench pressing or any chest movements, but when I gripped the weight with my thumbs pointed up (iso)  rather than diagonal (flat) I felt no pain in my shoulders and could work my chest.



I’m assuming this caused your elbsows to be tucked by your sides more and less flared out?


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## El Gringo (Feb 24, 2019)

Viduus said:


> I’m assuming this caused your elbsows to be tucked by your sides more and less flared out?



Yes, without even thinking about it. But there's something about gripping the weight that way that deactivates the delts, other than just tucking the elbows


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## Whicked-impulse (Apr 6, 2019)

Athlean x is who i normally watch to get ideas. But then again im all over youtube watching bunch of people tricks and form. Just a bunch of research and giving it the good old fashion try yourself is how i get by


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## Long (Apr 15, 2019)

Heavy upright rows 4x8
Heavy pressing movement like push press or dumbell press standing 4x8
Heavy dumbbell side raise 4x8

Then your shoulders are absolutely smoked....

Heavy bench press with enough weight you can do strict form 4x8
Dumbbell flies 4x8 slowly with full stretch and full contractions, feel it, and legs bent and in the air. Make sure your balance is coming from your chest holding the weight. Make sure you bounce the flex at the top back and forth from one pack to the other if people are watching:32 (1):
Then go immediately to flexing for a couple min. In a mirror. In the corner hiding from the cat, whatever. Flex deep and full holding the contraction feeling the entire peck.


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## dk8594 (Apr 15, 2019)

I've always liked John Meadow's approach to activation.  Started feeling my chest a lot more after incorporating some of his techniques.

https://mountaindogdiet.com/basic/training-basic/chest-activation-how-to-feel-your-chest/


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## IronDarling (Apr 15, 2019)

dk8594 said:


> I've always liked John Meadow's approach to activation.  Started feeling my chest a lot more after incorporating some of his techniques.
> 
> https://mountaindogdiet.com/basic/training-basic/chest-activation-how-to-feel-your-chest/


Good stuff there


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