# Israeli and American relationship



## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

It pisses me off that the Americans have this do what you like in the middle east friendship, and we'll give you the armoury. I might be wrong but is it for middle east intel?

If I was China, I would step in and sort the mess out "Stop fucken firing before we take you down and if the Americans try and back you up we'll take them out too" - but whats their incentive? Everyone needs an incentive


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

Dude put down the Bourbon and back away from the bottle. I am sure you are just trying to get a conversation going but this kind of Drama we don't need.


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Thats not what it is, look at the situation and tell me its right


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## BigGameHunter (Nov 24, 2012)

TheMinister said:


> Thats not what it is, look at the situation and tell me its right



Minister, Pardon me, Ive been away from the TV.  Whats going on?


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> Dude put down the Bourbon and back away from the bottle. I am sure you are just trying to get a conversation going but this kind of Drama we don't need.


There's no need to get personal with my drinking either, but since we are, you are out of order.


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

TheMinister said:


> Thats not what it is, look at the situation and tell me its right



innocent children getting killed in gaza.... and the americans just watching from the sidelines


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

I'd be more than happy to share my views with you, I don't think we need to clutter up the forum with it. It will get heated and I don't doubt to the point Bans may occur. I really enjoy the company of all my Bros and sisters on this forum because we have these things in common. I always tell my kids, Don't go shopping for trouble, it will find you soon enough on its own.  

BTW  if you are going to be thin skinned about drinking take up a different pass time. I am part Irish and most of my family are happy drunks.


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> I'd be more than happy to share my views with you, I don't think we need to clutter up the forum with it. It will get heated and I don't doubt to the point Bans may occur. I really enjoy the company of all my Bros and sisters on this forum because we have these things in common. I always tell my kids, Don't go shopping for trouble, it will find you soon enough on its own.
> 
> BTW  if you are going to be thin skinned about drinking take up a different pass time. I am part Irish and most of my family are happy drunks.



I'll let it go, but to say one thing its not for you to tell me to put the bottle down (you dont even know if I have had a drink) and the drama caused from this topic is caused by your reaction. We at SI have many times talked about subjects that are not relevant - we are a brotherhood, just like you are my brother.

The subject is sensitive, and I understand your reaction - especially if you are an american


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

No offence intended Minister. I have only positive thoughts for you, and for drinking for that matter. If I wasn't on cycle I'd enjoy throwing a few back with you. I enjoy having a good debate with someone that can logically defend their position, and at the end of the day if we don't see eye to eye still remain friends. If you are going to still be up for a bit we could take it to PM and I'll let you know my position and maybe you can persuade me to yours.


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Capt Ron, I appreciate your response but lets do it here - I am interested in the question I have posed or else I wouldnt have asked it - especially to the a majority which are Americans on this board. I dont expect to see eye to eye on every subject matter, its okay to agree to disagree.

As for forum clutter, dont worry about that - we've had topics like 'why would you ban the person before you' and other 'in the news topics unrelated to steroids' This is also in General Chat and Conversation forum which is fine.


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## Yaya (Nov 24, 2012)

Minister i agree that the shit and fighting needs to stop BUT china taking the USA out?? LOL, take it easy...


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Yaya said:


> Minister i agree that the shit and fighting needs to stop BUT china taking the USA out?? LOL, take it easy...



heheheh......


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

I think key is the US support for Israel


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

If you insist. First I mourn the loss of every innocent in this conflict on both sides. Women and children should be spared the horrors of war. We all come to issues like this with our own biases, some we are aware of others we are not. One flaw in the thinking of many in the west in my view is, we believe that people would prefer to live in peace with their neighbors, and see their children grow and prosper. Unfortunately this is not the case in much of the middle east where Martyrdom and hatred are idealized and even worshiped.  The stated goal of Hamas and their supporters in Gaza is not to establish a two state solution and live in peace it is to take over all of Israel and to eliminate all Jews. To achieve that goal they will sacrifice any life and preach hatred and death to their children. For months Hamas has fired rockets into Israel directly targeting civilians.  They do so from sites strategically located near mosques hospitals and schools. When the Isrealies


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

WTF not ready to post and no F ing edit button


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> If you insist. First I mourn the loss of every innocent in this conflict on both sides. Women and children should be spared the horrors of war. We all come to issues like this with our own biases, some we are aware of others we are not. One flaw in the thinking of many in the west in my view is, we believe that people would prefer to live in peace with their neighbors, and see their children grow and prosper. Unfortunately this is not the case in much of the middle east where Martyrdom and hatred are idealized and even worshiped.  The stated goal of Hamas and their supporters in Gaza is not to establish a two state solution and live in peace it is to take over all of Israel and to eliminate all Jews. To achieve that goal they will sacrifice any life and preach hatred and death to their children. For months Hamas has fired rockets into Israel directly targeting civilians.  They do so from sites strategically located near mosques hospitals and schools. When the Isrealies



I couldnt have put it better myself, and yes you are right, we could ink a few and debate various topics!


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## Yaya (Nov 24, 2012)

"either you're with us or your with the terrorists"

- George W Bush


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

TheMinister said:


> I couldnt have put it better myself, and yes you are right, we could *sink* a few and debate various topics!


......................................


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Yaya said:


> "either you're with us for your with the terrorists"
> 
> - George W Bush



GW Bush isnt a good person to quote..... hes been you worst president


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

When the Israelis respond as they must and certainly have a right to they do so in a targeted manner trying to limit civilian casualties.  Of course when the innocents that are being used as shields are harmed it is beamed around the world even when it is false and manufactured.  To try to shift the stage, how long do you think China would put up with random rocket fire from Taiwan?


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## theminister (Nov 24, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> When the Israelis respond as they must and certainly have a right to they do so in a targeted manner trying to limit civilian casualties.  Of course when the innocents that are being used as shields are harmed it is beamed around the world even when it is false and manufactured.  To try to shift the stage, how long do you think China would put up with random rocket fire from Taiwan?


That random rocket wouldnt come from Taiwan lets be honest. I dont believe anyone has the right to take a life from anyone. I dont believe in an eye for an eye. The Americans - worlds supposed super power should have stepped in earlier and ended this politically with incentives to save those lives of the children. I have been to Gaza and Palestine, which is why I probably feel so strongly about this


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## Capt'n Ron (Nov 24, 2012)

How can you stop Hamas from Hating the Jews to the point they celebrate the martyrdom of their own children. They have tried to give them land and we do send them a lot of money. Every step that is attempted toward peace is Twisted and corrupted by the hatred. How can one negotiate peace when your adversaries only goal is your extermination. The US can and has held Israel's feet to the fire to get concessions. Nothing on earth will make the Jews place their lives in the hands of those that would slaughter them.


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## DarksideSix (Nov 24, 2012)

As someone who is a combat veteran and who has trained with the Israilies let me tell you this, if they were half as big as the U.S they would probably be running shit!  One of the best militaries in the world, hands down!

Now, to the question at hand.  The U.S supports Israel because nobody else will.  In case you are not familiar with the region or what is going on there, the Arabs and Palastinians have been trying to invade and take the land from the Jews for over 30 years.  it's non stop war there and attacks on Israel.  Sure, the United Nations try and step in and form peace treaties, but Hamas and Hezbollah do not listen, they are terrorist groups.  Yes, the U.S supports them for Middle East intel but it's also to protect themselves.  They are a Christian nation surounded by islamic nations who consider them the infadels.  For the last 3 decades the Soviet Union supplied Iran and Syria with AK47's and Mig's.  

As far as inoccent people dying....it's war. happens every day.  no it's never good but I don't think that is Israels intent, but as said, these Hamas fuckheads are evil people who have made their base in an apartment building filled with cevilians so that nobody will bomb them.


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## mabdelrasoul (Nov 24, 2012)

Dark side why do u say Palestinians have been invading Israel . What makes you think it's not the other way around?


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## DarksideSix (Nov 24, 2012)

mabdelrasoul said:


> Dark side why do u say Palestinians have been invading Israel . What makes you think it's not the other way around?



The land (Jeruselum) belonged to the Jews since biblical times, then the Roman invaded and disbanded them all.  After Rome left, it was fought over for centuies between the crusaders and muslims.  Finaly in the 1940's someone stepped up and said..."hey, you took this land from the Isralites and never gave it back"  so it was declared Jewish land and a a broder was established.  Palastine has been furious ever since and want to take it back.


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## mabdelrasoul (Nov 24, 2012)

The only thing I will say is god banned the people of Israel to enter Jerusalem.  (As stated in the taura)


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## DarksideSix (Nov 24, 2012)

mabdelrasoul said:


> The only thing I will say is god banned the people of Israel to enter Jerusalem.  (As stated in the taura)



actually that is from the Qur'an.  As staited in the Torah, as well as the bible "God promised the land to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, and the first  kingdom of Israel was established"


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## mabdelrasoul (Nov 24, 2012)

I will look in to that some more. Now u have me interested in this topic.


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## transcend2007 (Nov 24, 2012)

The reason the US supports Israel is that they are the only true democracy in the middle-east.  

And were you joking about China getting involved.  Their military and navy is a joke.  Their hands are full seeing if they can continue oppressing their own people.  It’s getting harder everyday for them as the social media and internet (even highly regulated) has shown their people a brief glimpse of how the west lives.

Be thankful that Israel has not yet dealt with Iran.  As they are the ones backing Hamas and the other anti-democracy or anti-jewish/Christian groups.  However Iran’s days of openly supporting terrorist organizations are numbered.  This year I believe we’re going to see some massive changes there either internally from the economy and currency being absolutely trashed or externally from paying for their very poor decisions they’ve made over the past 5 years including killing many Americans in Iraq as well as many others.


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## Curiosity (Nov 24, 2012)

I don't think it was the best idea in the interest of peace to put a jewish state in the middle of a whole bunch of states and people who all hate jews. I mean, OK there was the holocaust, sure we should give the jews a state of their own so they can live in safety, but the location chosen couldn't have been more likely to piss off people and start continuous wars, as it has. 

Its very possible that the location was chosen so a US ally, essentially an extension of the US government, could be situated right in the middle of the hot zone so we could have military bases there, etc. Don't be deceived, we give Isreal almost all of their weaponry and tons of money, and the political support to do whatever they want to the palestinians without consequences. Anything they do is sanctioned by the US, we might not openly support it but behind closed doors they have the go-ahead. 

It's definitely unfortunate the living situation of the palestinians. They live in possibly the worst place on the planet earth to live, Their land is divided up by the Isrealis, whenever the Isrealis want to expand their settlements they just push into whatever part of gaza they want, palestinians have to deal with all kinds of checkpoints and harassment daily from Isreali security forces. And, whenever a terrorist from palestine fires a rocket into Isreal, Isreal retaliates by attacking them with weapons that are 100 times more destructive, and plenty of civilians die, many many more than in Isreal.

At this point its hard to say who's right, both sides have a legitimate claim to the land. In all honesty this could have been avoided by putting the jewish state in a different location.


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## BigGameHunter (Nov 24, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> I don't think it was the best idea in the interest of peace to put a jewish state in the middle of a whole bunch of states and people who all hate jews. I mean, OK there was the holocaust, sure we should give the jews a state of their own so they can live in safety, but the location chosen couldn't have been more likely to piss off people and start continuous wars, as it has.
> 
> Its very possible that the location was chosen so a US ally, essentially an extension of the US government, could be situated right in the middle of the hot zone so we could have military bases there, etc. Don't be deceived, we give Isreal almost all of their weaponry and tons of money, and the political support to do whatever they want to the palestinians without consequences. Anything they do is sanctioned by the US, we might not openly support it but behind closed doors they have the go-ahead.
> 
> ...



Or it could be avoided by the arabs being tolerant of their neighbor.  Since that is not going to happen, Israel quite frankly cannot afford  to be anything but ruthless.  BTW I dont see any of the other Arab countries offering to take the Palestinans in.  The check points are there for a reason.  The car bombs planted by the Palestinian terrorists kill plenty of Israeli civilians.  There have been plenty of times the US has got involved and stopped Israel from finishing this.  I wonder who would be complaining if the arabs had won the war the last time they invaded Israel?

Curiosity the whole thing is a mess.  At some point We all need to say out of it and let them settle it once and for all.


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## Curiosity (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah its a huge mess. No resolution in sight either, the world has been trying to get them to come to terms for 40 years with no success. I don't know what the answer is. 

I didn't mean to come off sounding pro-palestinian, I'm not, but I think here in the US we do tend to hear one side of the story more than the other.


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## BigGameHunter (Nov 25, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> Yeah its a huge mess. No resolution in sight either, the world has been trying to get them to come to terms for 40 years with no success. I don't know what the answer is.
> 
> I didn't mean to come off sounding pro-palestinian, I'm not, but I think here in the US we do tend to hear one side of the story more than the other.



You definately have a point there.  You dont sound biased to me Bro. I think we get numb to this after a while.  Its their battle let them settle it.


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## theminister (Nov 25, 2012)

transcend2007 said:


> The reason the US supports Israel is that they are the only true democracy in the middle-east.
> 
> And were you joking about China getting involved.  Their military and navy is a joke.  Their hands are full seeing if they can continue oppressing their own people.  It’s getting harder everyday for them as the social media and internet (even highly regulated) has shown their people a brief glimpse of how the west lives.
> 
> Be thankful that Israel has not yet dealt with Iran.  As they are the ones backing Hamas and the other anti-democracy or anti-jewish/Christian groups.  However Iran’s days of openly supporting terrorist organizations are numbered.  This year I believe we’re going to see some massive changes there either internally from the economy and currency being absolutely trashed or externally from paying for their very poor decisions they’ve made over the past 5 years including killing many Americans in Iraq as well as many others.




Yes, China is not so stupid to get involved when they have their American counterpart to do the dirty work. As for their military and especially Navy I think you'd be surprised.its Its unfortunate how the states lie, but since the Americans are holding the Israelis hands on this one, I wish someone would stand up for David, in the David and Goliath situ


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## BigFella (Nov 25, 2012)

Minister, thanks for stirring the pot. If we can discuss movies and TV shows then we can also discuss more "important" things.

There will be a considerable disconnect between various members, mostly caused by our location and our exposure and vulnerability to main stream media. "You will believe what we tell you to believe."

A few random points which are ignored by MSM:

*Numbers of deaths*
Deaths in the Gaza Strip outnumber deaths in Israel by about thirty to one - in 2008 868 Palestinians died, 20 Israelis died; in the recent hostilities 162 Palestinians died, 5 Israelis died. Women and children account for more than half the casualties in Palestine. Non-combatant men are probably the majority of the remainder, but let's leave that out for a moment. These figures mean that Israel kills about fifteen women and children in Palestine for each military death in Israel. You don't get that flavour in what you see on TV, do you?

*Women and children as shields*
This is a very sad argument. Check out Google Maps and just have a look at a satellite view of the Gaza Strip. Have a look also at the luxurious, verdant pastures lying just across the border in Israel, across from the incredibly heavily crowded refugee camps in Gaza. The Palestinians look at them too - and they know that was their land, stolen from them.

Anyway, if you wanted to defend yourself - or commit acts of aggression - where could you put your rocket launcher that was away from women and children? And would that matter anyway? Because the vast majority of strikes by Israel have not been against rocket launching targets - they have targeted the residences of alleged militants. (What is a "militant" in Palestine anyway? It seems to me that "militant" = "dead Palestinian male"; “dead women and children” = “human shields”.)

*History of Palestine*
It's been around for a long time - at least 3,000 years. History gets a bit fuzzy prior to that. Does it have a right to exist? I'm not sure, but I think so. Is it fair to move the vast majority of Palestinians into a tiny portion of their country, blockade it by land, sea and air and continually threaten it with extinction? I don't think so either. Is it understandable that Palestinians will do whatever they can to fight against this? I think so. Would a Palestinian father be less of a man if he lay down and accepted what Israel was doing? I think so.

The Minister represents a non-American view, one less influenced by the American MSM. I believe I also have a less US-centric, less MSM-influenced view.

One poster said that the only country supporting Israel was the US. If that's the case you really have to ask "Why?" But it actually isn't the case - many other countries do support Israel, in order to curry favour with the US. My own country is one, to our shame.

*Democracy*
There is an underlying feeling that "democracy" should be imposed on all countries, and is worth fighting - and therefore kllling - for. Why? Is it really that good a system of government? And if it is worth killing for is it really that different to a religious war - "My belief is best therefore I will kill you"? The twin beliefs: Belief in a particular religion and belief a particular political system have caused what proportion of violent deaths in the world over time? 95%? I'd guess at about that figure. Is it really anyone's right to impose a belief on anyone else?

*Retaliation*
About 3,000 people died in 9/11. To some degree the Iraq war was retaliation for that. About 6,000 US military have died in this retaliation. (Over half a million have been wounded, but who's counting?) The first casualty in war is accuracy, so we will never know for sure, but somewhere between 130,000 and 1,000,000 civilian casualties have occurred. The official US figures for the period January 2004 and December 2009 in Iraq alone were 66,081 civilian deaths. (Thanks, Bradley Manning. We would never have known without you.)

3,000 dead in the twin towers, a million dead – including 6,000 of your own servicemen – as retaliation. It makes no sense – until you think it through.

*Why does this happen?*
Deep Throat gave us the tip: Follow the money. It's not about democracy, or religion, or being nice to our neighbours. It's about getting richer.

Every time anything goes "bang" in the world money moves from the poor to the rich. That's all it is. And Israel is part of the world. Every time a rocket gets fired by Israel money moves from the poor to the rich in America.

And that's terribly hard for us to comprehend, and absolutely impossible for the majority of servicemen. It's something to fight viciously against, as the last thing they want to believe is that their sacrifice has only been for financial reasons – to make the rich richer. 

So that’s why the US will not move out of the Middle East. There’s too much money in being involved.

*Don't worry about China. It's over.*
China was mentioned: China will not do anything in Israel. China is China-centric. China will fight, and fight hard, for its interests in Taiwan, in Korea, in Tibet, for countries close to China - but not in a far-distant land. And anyway, they know the war in the 21st century will be won economically, not militarily. It has probably already been won, actually.

*Rupert Murdoch*
Don't anyone suggest he's Australian. We disowned him years ago.

As The Minster said: "The subject is sensitive, and I understand your reaction - especially if you are an American". But it needs to be raised.

And if I lose every friend I have ever made on SI – thanks for the ride, guys. You’re a wonderful family.


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## theminister (Nov 25, 2012)

I agree; not really stirring the pot cos I'm English or that most members are Americans. I think Israel apart from its regional Intel, can be a base for us troops should anything fire up in that region. Therefore the almost feel hand and endless supplies.. It's not like the Israelis respect the Americans, they just do what they want.


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## BigGameHunter (Nov 25, 2012)

Big Fella you wont loose me as a friend, I respect your opinion and courage to post this.  You know there is a however comming ...right?

I think youve raised some valid points about the money and land. Although I believe in God, I think evolution has a way of cleaning up things like this.  You cant deny that the Palestinians arent the only "group" of people that have gotten less than a fair shake.  But they definately havent been able to move on and let it go or take responsibility for the part of their life they are able to control.  There are plenty of things that can be done to move on, instead of revenge, that doesnt include bombing civilians.  Those fathers could teach their children perseverance instead of terrorism, those same fathers have chosen the later in many cases.  I dont believe America is the only one exploiting the situation, the entire Arab world does so everyday.  As I said,  have they opened their doors to these folks?    

Without breaking out into a country song,  I wish you would put the same judgement on the good things this country does.  And some of the responsibility for bad behavior where it needs to be (Hamas maybe).  War is hell brother and Palestine either needs to let it go or find another way to fight this.  The road their going down is going to get more of them killed maybe all of them...  Your still my bro and if you need a reference for a green card Ill be here this is a good country.  LOL


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## BigFella (Nov 25, 2012)

BigGameHunter said:


> Big Fella you wont loose me as a friend, I respect your opinion and courage to post this.  You know there is a however comming ...right?
> 
> I think youve raised some valid points about the money and land. Although I believe in God, I think evolution has a way of cleaning up things like this.  You cant deny that the Palestinians arent the only "group" of people that have gotten less than a fair shake.  But they definately havent been able to move on and let it go or take responsibility for the part of their life they are able to control.  There are plenty of things that can be done to move on, instead of revenge, that doesnt include bombing civilians.  Those fathers could teach their children perseverance instead of terrorism, those same fathers have chosen the later in many cases.  I dont believe America is the only one exploiting the situation, the entire Arab world does so everyday.  As I said,  have they opened their doors to these folks?
> 
> Without breaking out into a country song,  I wish you would put the same judgement on the good things this country does.  And some of the responsibility for bad behavior where it needs to be (Hamas maybe).  War is hell brother and Palestine either needs to let it go or find another way to fight this.  The road their going down is going to get more of them killed maybe all of them...  Your still my bro and if you need a reference for a green card Ill be here this is a good country.  LOL


Thanks mate

(I have read my post and know I have to duck!)

I agree - bombing anyone isn't a good look, but the numbers are stacked against them. Over the last ten years there have been about fifteen times the number of Palestinian women and children killed compared to Israeli. But you never get to read that in the western press. The impression you get it that it's the Palestinians doing the killing. The numbers are so far reversed it's crazy. And if I was a Palestinian father I'd be pretty emotionally involved. I wouldn't know what to do, but I know I'd have to do something.

There is little we can do, but we can understand it better. Most people hearing of the Gaza Strip don't even know where it is. All they "know" is that those bloodthirsty crazy Arabs are killing peace-loving Israeli women and children somewhere in the Middle East and our boys are dying trying to protect them from themselves. A half hour overview of the history of Gaza on Wikipedia and a look at Google maps' satellite image might bring a bit of an understanding as to what it might be like to be a Palestinian in the Gaza Strip.

Phew. It's a tough one.


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## BigGameHunter (Nov 25, 2012)

Yeah its tough, but youve really made my point.  That something the fathers are doing isnt working.  Fact is there is a reason the arab world hasnt opened its doors to the Palestinians.  They enjoy exploiting the situation IMO.  They also know the point Im trying to make.  Regardless of whats in the press,  rock throwing, bomb making and hell raising  is not a trade most other countries seek in a new citizen even in the middle east.  Its their choice to go down this path.

This country had a civil war and managed to reunite,  let it be and move on.  These 2 will never be able to live side by side. Quite frankly the arab culture will not allow it.   As for the death numbers being lopsided I usually dont get my research from Wikipedia but for this its OK.  It simply doesnt change anything.  If some one bombed my daughter I would make a shit list so long it would make your fucking head spin.  Palestinians needs to stop allowing themselves to be exploited by Hamas, and the real bood thirsty arabs in the region if they dont want to be lumped in with them.  They have 2 choices as I see it,  accept that War is hell and quit complaining about it when it doesnt go their way. Or educate themselves and offer something besides bombs, stones and complaints to the world and their culture.


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## Bro Bundy (Jul 20, 2014)

faggot ass minister


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