# The Use of Hcg between cycles



## animal87 (Jan 9, 2014)

The Use of Hcg between cycles
Q: “How can I best use HCG between steroid cycles?”

A: My most common recommendation with HCG is to use it only during cycles to avoid testicular atrophy and to maintain testicular responsiveness. When this is done, then as soon as LH production is restored with SERM use or with time, the testes are immediately responsive to produce testosterone.

However, as your question suggests, HCG can also provide benefit between cycles.
I recommend avoiding HCG for at least the first two weeks after the recovery period has started. By the start of the recovery period, I mean the time point where androgen levels from steroids taken during the cycle have fallen sufficiently to allow LH production to begin to resume. HCG use during this early phase can interfere with recovery of LH. I’m not saying it’s impossible to recover LH production while using HCG, but HCG use impairs the process.

HCG use during recovery does make it impossible to determine by “feel” whether recovery of LH is occurring. LH could be near zero while testosterone is normal or high-normal.

Ideally, a blood test for LH is taken at about 2-4 weeks into the recovery to establish for a fact whether LH production has recovered. This is optional: many don’t do it but instead go simply from how they feel and perform, which can be a good basis if HCG was not used during recovery.

When confident for either of these reasons that a good recovery has occurred, then a bridging, or between cycle, use of HCG can begin. I recommend starting with a modest amount, such as about 250-275 IU 3x/week. At this usage level, a 5000 IU vial lasts 6 weeks.
If you already have been using letrozole or another aromatase inhibitor when off-cycle and have found a dosage suitable for you to maintain ideal estradiol levels (low 20′s pg/mL), then at first use the aromatase inhibitor at that same dosage while using HCG. If you don’t already have information on your estradiol levels, then at first don’t add an aromatase inhibitor. Save it for when you have blood test results.

HCG use between cycles is one time that blood work really should be taken more seriously than it commonly is. If wanting to use HCG between cycles, I strongly recommend against guesswork. If it’s gotten wrong, then LH production will be shut down not only during the cycles, but in most of the off weeks as well. For the hypothalamus and pituitary, it can become the equivalent of using steroids almost every week of the year.

In most cases when estradiol is kept at a good level, normal LH production can be maintained while using HCG at about 200-275 IU 3x/week. This can provide substantially higher testosterone levels, typically high-normal, than when HCG is not used. The benefit between cycles can be noticeable, with no adverse side effects at all.

About 2 weeks into HCG use, LH and estradiol should be tested. If estradiol is outside the low 20′s pg/mL range, aromatase use should be adjusted. If estradiol is good but LH is low, HCG use should be decreased, for example to 250 IU twice per week.
Where estradiol and LH levels are good, optionally HCG dosage may be increased. There’s no reason to go past about 1500 IU/week, as further benefit past that level is unlikely. Retesting should be performed after each adjustment of HCG dose.

by:Bill Roberts


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 9, 2014)

I don't agree with this article about HCG use off cycle. HCG is suppressive and the purpose of coming off cycle is to allow your HPTA to go back to homeostasis plus give your body a break from supraphysiological levels. Why use HCG during this time and suppress yourself instead of extending the cycle length, running TRT, or cruising?


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## j2048b (Jan 9, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> I don't agree with this article about HCG use off cycle. HCG is suppressive and the purpose of coming off cycle is to allow your HPTA to go back to homeostasis plus give your body a break from supraphysiological levels. Why use HCG during this time and suppress yourself instead of extending the cycle length, running TRT, or cruising?



Im on trt and use hcg at all times...


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## Rumpy (Jan 9, 2014)

J20 said:


> Im on trt and use hcg at all times...



J, you're using HCG while on TRT, so you're never trying to recover your natural production.  Doc's point is to not use it while you're completely off, so what he said does not apply to you.

I'm curious how you use it on TRT.  I have heard like 10 weeks on 10 weeks off, or two 10 week HCG cycles pre year.  Is that about right?  I ask because I'm considering cruising/TRT after this cycle.


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## j2048b (Jan 9, 2014)

Rumpy said:


> J, you're using HCG while on TRT, so you're never trying to recover your natural production.  Doc's point is to not use it while you're completely off, so what he said does not apply to you.
> 
> I'm curious how you use it on TRT.  I have heard like 10 weeks on 10 weeks off, or two 10 week HCG cycles pre year.  Is that about right?  I ask because I'm considering cruising/TRT after this cycle.



Ok thanks,

I use it 1 time a week at 250iu and thats along with my test so my numbers stay low so my doc doesnt lower my amount of test i take as he is slight crazy, if i push hcg 2 times per week along with my trt 100 mlg test per week he gets crazy when my numbers come back over 1000

Some say 2 times per week, some advocate 3 times a week, 

I feel good on 1 time a week at 250iu's per week, and run it as long as i like and my e2 stays in check... Never cycled hcg thruout my trt...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 9, 2014)

J20 said:


> Im on trt and use hcg at all times...



Rumpy nailed it...you're on TRT so you're not worried about suppression. For someone who isn't on TRT it's a different story and they will be suppressed at the level of the pituitary gland by using HCG off cycle.


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## animal87 (Jan 9, 2014)

I know everybody is a genius. Just trying to share some knowledge.


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## gymrat827 (Jan 9, 2014)

animal87 said:


> I know everybody is a genius. Just trying to share some knowledge.



no, were not.....but that isnt really going to help anyone.  we appreciate you sharing though.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 10, 2014)

animal87 said:


> I know everybody is a genius. Just trying to share some knowledge.



Which is what everyone else in this thread is attempting to do so we all can be geniuses.


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## Bigwhite (Jan 10, 2014)

I would use hcg between cycles. Let your body recover and do what is supposed to do naturally. As far as trt, I don't use hcg, why, I'm never coming off and so my balls shrank a little, if it don't bother me it shouldn't bother you…


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## Bigwhite (Jan 10, 2014)

Bigwhite said:


> I *would *use hcg between cycles. Let your body recover and do what is supposed to do naturally. As far as trt, I don't use hcg, why, I'm never coming off and so my balls shrank a little, if it don't bother me it shouldn't bother you…



"Wouldn't"


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 10, 2014)

Bigwhite said:


> I would use hcg between cycles. Let your body recover and do what is supposed to do naturally. As far as trt, I don't use hcg, why, I'm never coming off and so my balls shrank a little, if it don't bother me it shouldn't bother you…



I like the correction in your second post lol, I ended up scrapping my original reply hahaha.

As far as you being on TRT without the HCG, it's more than just about cosmetic issues and atrophy of the testicles. LH is used to backfill many pathways besides just stimulating Ledyig cells in the testes. It has importance for adrenal function as well as the natural (albeit minor)  test production in your adrenal glands. Furthermore LH and by extension HCG is actively involved in the stimulation (or depression) of P450CC (P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme) which is responsible for the conversion of cholesterol into pregnenolone and then into other sex steroids, glucocorticoid, and mineralcorticoids. 

Here's an excerpt from a paper written by Dr. Crisler



			
				Dr. Crisler said:
			
		

> But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol.  The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.



I can link the whole paper or quote it here if anyone's interested in reading  the entire thing but this is the most relevant part of it. You're other choices besides HCG would be either HMG (which is similar to HCG but mimics FSH as well as LH, whereas HCG only is an analog to LH and a poor FSH analog) or to supplement with DHEA and prenenolone. In the end the choice is up to you and your doctor but if I were you I'd at least research HCG as more than just a 'cosmetic' drug.


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## Rumpy (Jan 10, 2014)

Doc, what dosage do you recommend while on TRT?  I seem to recall hearing you should cycle it, but I cannot recall the source, so I may have been bro science.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 10, 2014)

Rumpy said:


> Doc, what dosage do you recommend while on TRT?  I seem to recall hearing you should cycle it, but I cannot recall the source, so I may have been bro science.



Everyone is different Rumpy and this should be worked out alongside your doctor but in the opinion of Dr. Crisler most ppl will suffice with 2 weekly injections of HCG at 250iu (500iu/wk). He has never had a reason to go above any one single injection of 375iu and recommends to NEVER go above 500iu in any given day. The injections of HCG should be done the day before you pin: if you pin once a week or less frequently than that he suggests taking the 250iu 2days before your injection and 250iu the day before (so two consecutive days) and if you do twice weekly injections of test than take 250iu the day before each injection for 500iu total weekly. He recommends this based on sub-q HCG injections so if doing IM you would have to slightly tweak the timing for the difference in absorption rates.


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