# Is the volume too low for a beginner-intermediate trainee?



## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

Greetings everyone!

Lately, because of the pandemic, gyms being closed and the lack of a home gym I've been looking into bodyweight programs, which got me to a program I found on ExRx, and I was wondering if the volume may be a little low for someone who's been training seriously for about 1.5 years. (This is the program btw: exrx. net/Workouts/CalisthenicWorkout)

Basically the program tells you to chose 5 exercises (or 10, depending on the week) and then perform 1 set of each every workout, and to train 3x/week. (Sometimes you train 2x/week, but you perform 2 working sets every workout.) There is also a warm-up set for each exercise in every workout.

Example: 
Workout A (warm-up sets not included):
Push-ups 1x10
Pullups 1x11
Squats 1x12
Hyperextension 1x12
Crunches 1x20

AxAxAxx (weekly training scheme)


I was wondering if only 3-4 weekly sets for each muscle group would be enough to stimulate growth or not (always assuming the exercises are performed at the prescribed intensity), given that I was used to performing 9-15 weekly working sets on average before this whole thing started.

Thank you for reading


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## Jin (Jul 19, 2020)

Moar volume!!!!


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## Boytoy (Jul 19, 2020)

So 10 push ups would be a workout?


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## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> Moar volume!!!!


What would you suggest?


Boytoy said:


> So 10 push ups would be a workout?


No, the whole thing is one workout (the pushups, pullups, squats, etc.). Three times a week.


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## brock8282 (Jul 19, 2020)

Depends completely on training intensity. Some of my best progress was made with 4 working sets Per muscle group every 5 day


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## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

brock8282 said:


> Depends completely on training intensity. Some of my best progress was made with 4 working sets Per muscle group every 5 day



Thanks, that's useful. What level of experience did you have at that point?


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## brock8282 (Jul 19, 2020)

Last year, I would say at a relatively advanced level


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## Jin (Jul 19, 2020)

brock8282 said:


> Depends completely on training intensity. Some of my best progress was made with 4 working sets Per muscle group every 5 day



you were not using body weight movements


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## BrotherIron (Jul 19, 2020)

Bodyweight movements doesn't illicit much of a response b/c there isn't much external stimulus.  I would say more sets and train EOD.  If you're truly an intermediate lifter, you won't maintain your results.  I would suggest you buy bands to get just that... the external stimulus you need to maintain and perhaps even gain.


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## CJ (Jul 19, 2020)

Yeah, unless you're a true beginner or coming off a long layoff, I don't see progress being made on this.

For an intermediate, if it were increased to 5 sets per exercise, done EOD, with all sets taken very close to failure, it could possibly maintain for awhile or slow down the rate of degradation.

As stated, grab some bands, and add weight to those exercises somehow. For example, a 60 lb bag of sand at Home Depot only costs a few dollars. Bear hug and squat with that, or throw it over your back. A couple of buckets full of rocks used for weighted carries, throw heavy shit that you find in your yard, like logs. 

Go to a local bar, ask if you can buy an empty keg. Their deposit on them is only ~$10, so they won't be too attached to them. Half fill it with water or sand. Get creative.


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## Sicwun88 (Jul 19, 2020)

I'd add more sets!
Intensity is the key!!


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## dk8594 (Jul 19, 2020)

Nomad said:


> Greetings everyone!
> 
> Lately, because of the pandemic, gyms being closed and the lack of a home gym I've been looking into bodyweight programs, which got me to a program I found on ExRx, and I was wondering if the volume may be a little low for someone who's been training seriously for about 1.5 years. (This is the program btw: exrx. net/Workouts/CalisthenicWorkout)
> 
> ...



What is the progression (I.e how is it harder each time?)

Every workout should be either more weight or more reps than the last.  If you can’t add those than your progression should be more volume each workout.   If each of your workouts is the same weights, reps, and sets as the one before it it’s called a plateau.


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## snake (Jul 19, 2020)

At a minimum, double it all and both sets to failure.


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## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> you were not using body weight movements


How is this bad? If I'm performing exercises at the required intensity, wouldn't it be the same as using free weights? (Please read the end of this post)


BrotherIron said:


> Bodyweight movements doesn't illicit much of a response b/c there isn't much external stimulus.  I would say more sets and train EOD.  If you're truly an intermediate lifter, you won't maintain your results.  I would suggest you buy bands to get just that... the external stimulus you need to maintain and perhaps even gain.


Why not? As I said, the intensity is on point. (Please read the end of this post)


CJ275 said:


> Yeah, unless you're a true beginner or coming off a long layoff, I don't see progress being made on this.
> 
> For an intermediate, if it were increased to 5 sets per exercise, done EOD, with all sets taken very close to failure, it could possibly maintain for awhile or slow down the rate of degradation.
> 
> ...


But what if the exercises are already hard enough for me? (Please read the end of this post)


Sicwun88 said:


> I'd add more sets!
> Intensity is the key!!


Intensity is on point for me. (Please read the end of this post)


dk8594 said:


> What is the progression (I.e how is it harder each time?)
> 
> Every workout should be either more weight or more reps than the last.  If you can’t add those than your progression should be more volume each workout.   If each of your workouts is the same weights, reps, and sets as the one before it it’s called a plateau.


Progression is achieved by increasing the amount of reps. The program recommends a given range for each muscle group, for example 11-15. Every workout I try to do as much as possible, and if I reach the top (15), I move on to a different exercise that is harder.


snake said:


> At a minimum, double it all and both sets to failure.


Ok, that seems reasonable. I'll try and see if I get too fatigued.

For those that spoke about intensity:

I'm not actually performing those exercises. I wouldn't be much of an intermediate if I could only perform 12 bodyweight squats. I only typed those exercises to keep the post simple.

In reality, the exercises I perform are more like pistol squats and one-arm pushups, but I didn't see the point in complicating the post with meaningless details.

The point is, the exercises are not easy at all.


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## Jin (Jul 19, 2020)

^^^^those aren’t meaningless details^^^^

pistol squats and one arm push ups make a big impact on how difficult the lift it.


We can only know what you tell us


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## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> ^^^^those aren’t meaningless details^^^^
> 
> pistol squats and one arm push ups make a big impact on how difficult the lift it.
> 
> ...



I know it may have been a mistake. That's why I said that the exercises were being performed at the recommended intensity.

But yeah, I guess it wasn't that complicated to type pistol squats instead of squats. My bad.


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## dragon1952 (Jul 19, 2020)

How do you make 1 set of 10 bodyweight pushups intense?


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## Nomad (Jul 19, 2020)

dragon1952 said:


> How do you make 1 set of 10 bodyweight pushups intense?



It was just a theoretical proposition. In reality those are one-arm pushups, weighted chinups and pistol squats.


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## CJ (Jul 20, 2020)

Yeah, those were important details that you left out. If you had said exercises like planche pushups, muscle ups, handstand pushups, pistols, Inverted rows, etc..., you'd have gotten a different response.


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## Nomad (Jul 20, 2020)

So, now that the information is whole, what do you guys think about the original question? Do you think 3-4 weekly sets are enough or not?

I'm checking because I got 2 conflicting responses and I'd like to confirm before tinkering with the program.

Thanks again!


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## CJ (Jul 20, 2020)

Nomad said:


> So, now that the information is whole, what do you guys think about the original question? Do you think 3-4 weekly sets are enough or not?
> 
> I'm checking because I got 2 conflicting responses and I'd like to confirm before tinkering with the program.
> 
> Thanks again!



I think you will make progress, especially because it seems like you'll be utilizing movements with a higher skill component to them. Practicing them 3+ times per week will hone those skills.


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## ATLRigger (Jul 21, 2020)

How is it possible somebody can only do 10 push-ups but knocks out 11 pull uups?


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## Nomad (Jul 21, 2020)

ATLRigger said:


> How is it possible somebody can only do 10 push-ups but knocks out 11 pull uups?



That was my bad. I just picked the exercises randomly. In reality those are assisted one-arm pushups and weighted chins.

Also, I can no longer edit the OP so I'm afraid it'll remain incorrect.


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## Seeker (Jul 21, 2020)

No, it's not enough to create growth. Sorry but if you're looking to GROW on  a muscular level it's not. If you're looking to maybe create a little definition with diet it's possible but you're not gonna grow with this especially it only being bodyweight.  one pushup times 10? How the hell is that going to spark any growth?? Bodyweight squats? I dont understand why there is even any debate. Its ridiculous.


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## Nomad (Jul 21, 2020)

Seeker said:


> No, it's not enough to create growth. Sorry but if you're looking to GROW on  a muscular level it's not. If you're looking to maybe create a little definition with diet it's possible but you're not gonna grow with this especially it only being bodyweight.  one pushup times 10? How the hell is that going to spark any growth?? Bodyweight squats? I dont understand why there is even any debate. Its ridiculous.



Please read post #23.

As I said, I can't change the OP so I fear this misunderstanding will keep repeating itself.

If a moderator could edit the OP for me to reflect the changes we discussed I'd greatly appreciate it.


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## CJ (Jul 21, 2020)

Nomad said:


> Please read post #23.
> 
> As I said, I can't change the OP so I fear this misunderstanding will keep repeating itself.
> 
> If a moderator could edit the OP for me to reflect the changes we discussed I'd greatly appreciate it.



Nope! You made your bed, now you lie in it!!!  :32 (18):


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## Seeker (Jul 21, 2020)

Nomad said:


> Please read post #23.
> 
> As I said, I can't change the OP so I fear this misunderstanding will keep repeating itself.
> 
> If a moderator could edit the OP for me to reflect the changes we discussed I'd greatly appreciate it.



Ok heres my answer to #23. Still not nearly enough. Get your self some resistant bands  and use them like a full workout 5-6 days a week and then the bodyweight exercises in addition


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## Jin (Jul 21, 2020)

CJ275 said:


> Nope! You made your bed, now you lie in it!!!  :32 (18):



The boss has spoken. Sorry.


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## DOOM (Jul 21, 2020)

You could also see what kind of response you can get out two a days. Its a great way to shock your muscles and stimulate growth and strength. 

I would suggest adding more volume with additional reps/sets. I would definitely start with training eod. If you are not having issues with recovery then you can add another day or two.

Good luck!


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## brock8282 (Jul 21, 2020)

If you can create enough muscular tension with body weight movements to hit true muscular failure then yes 4 sets can be enough. Especially if you do things like rest pause sets or cluster sets, I really like both a lot. My concern with your plan is things like pistol squats, things like stabilizer muscles will fail first instead of the actual muscles you are trying to grow, if you can get resistance bands, (elitefts makes great ones) this will help tremendously.


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## Nomad (Jul 21, 2020)

Seeker said:


> Ok heres my answer to #23. Still not nearly enough. Get your self some resistant bands  and use them like a full workout 5-6 days a week and then the bodyweight exercises in addition


Point taken about frequency and volume. 

However, I don't get why I need the bands. I can't do more than 12 reps on any of the exercises I mentioned. How will it benefit me to perform 4 assisted one-arm pushups w/bands instead of 8 assisted one-arm pushups?

If I wanted to make the one-arm pushups harder, why can't I just remove the "assisted" part instead of adding bands?



brock8282 said:


> If you can create enough muscular tension with body weight movements to hit true muscular failure then yes 4 sets can be enough. Especially if you do things like rest pause sets or cluster sets, I really like both a lot. My concern with your plan is things like pistol squats, things like stabilizer muscles will fail first instead of the actual muscles you are trying to grow, if you can get resistance bands, (elitefts makes great ones) this will help tremendously.



I've thought about that, especially when it came to pistol squats. I don't think it's a problem though. If my perception doesn't fail me, I actually feel my quads getting tired instead of other muscles. 

I think this is because I progressed toward the exercise in a reasonable manner. I started using boxes at first and started lowering the height until I didn't need it.

It's still an ongoing concern for me. I'd prefer replacing them with a bilateral exercise. I could really use the bands for that. I'll definitely try to buy some.


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## ATLRigger (Jul 21, 2020)

What’s the technique for one handed pushups?


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## Nomad (Jul 21, 2020)

ATLRigger said:


> What’s the technique for one handed pushups?



http://youtube.com/watch?v=mctH5fyzqqo

Something like that.


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## Boytoy (Jul 22, 2020)

dragon1952 said:


> How do you make 1 set of 10 bodyweight pushups intense?




Put fat girl on your back


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## ATLRigger (Jul 23, 2020)

Nomad said:


> http://youtube.com/watch?v=mctH5fyzqqo
> 
> Something like that.


Ive never been able to do them but i knew someone who could.  It’s all technique and doesn’t really require too much strength.


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## dragon1952 (Jul 23, 2020)

Handstand presses would be a good BW exercise come to think of it. Used to do those as a teen.


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