# Stand Alone Deca Cycle Debate



## John Ziegler (Aug 18, 2016)

Back in the late 80's & early 90's I ran a couple of nandrolone decanoate at 100mg eod cycles for roughly 14 weeks a piece no pct.

The first stand alone deca cycle I ran I went from 140 to 160 and at 160 looked bigger than a couple friends of mine that weighed 180 and 190.

The second time I ran a deca only cycle I weighed in at 180 and gained another 20 pounds on it and looked way bigger than a normal 200 pounder.

Not to mention the epic strength gains no bloat fat or ridiculous amounts of water retention no gyno.

Nowadays the standard issue say's you need run test with deca, have caber on hand if you don't want get limp dick, have AI on hand.

I agree with all the new knowledge and scientific approach to combat sides and stay safe this and that also lost some gains due to no pct.

But on the deca stand alone cycles I had great size and strength gains no limp dick as a matter of fact remember humping two different chicks within hours of each other with the same dirty dick on many occasions because I was so damn horny I would wreck the one pussy cum then need to go get some more pussy.

Are test, an AI and caber totally necessary ? 

Or are they only good to have around for just in case ?


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## Jada (Aug 18, 2016)

Well speaking from experience  , I wouldn't run deca  without test.  Im not willing to take that chance or experiment  like you did, I can't afford to have a dead  PP now with the whole caber situation  that I say u have to keep at hand depending on ur history with prolactin  because  this cycle not once did I have to use it.  Everyone is different  and what works for u might not work for me . Having a AI I wouldn't fk around with that. I have the at all times and  use. Now like it is always said u have to try and the only way you going to know what's going on and if it's working is with BLOODWORK other than that u just playing a guessing game.


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## snake (Aug 18, 2016)

Well Z, we know better now so stick to close to the current cycle layouts. Don't fuuk with Deca if you're not 99% sure about it going in. Deca is a grab your balls and jump AAS and once in, getting out the back door is far away.

As for bangin' all that tail; you were much younger then and that's just normal at those ages. Therefore I don't think you should give Deca all the credit.


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## Joliver (Aug 18, 2016)

I am not sure about the 80's, but if you were to tell me that this was after the 1990 steroid ban, I'd tell you that it was testosterone you were taking and not deca.  Deca is more expensive.  Test is cheap.  Better markup and the average rookie wont know the difference.


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## grizzldsealpoacher (Aug 18, 2016)

I did this also but it was 2001 so maybe it was just test . it was Mexican gear that some buddies brought back with them from spring break . I ran what I thought was 250mg deca for 15 wks I got good results . I dieted hard lost 20 lbs or so (i was fat ) made some moderate strength gains . I would never try that again though knowing what I know and I don't know much


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## ECKSRATED (Aug 18, 2016)

I've ran a deca only cycle. It sucked. Was good at first but after about 8 weeks my cock didn't work. Floppy cock syndrome. Def run test


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## thqmas (Aug 18, 2016)

I know some guys that ran deca only with no problems.... But Z... Why?

I mean, if you were going to run one drug alone why would you want to choose deca?


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## Maijah (Aug 18, 2016)

I ran a deca only only cycle when I was 18, it was Norandren 200, I took 1 cc for 10 weeks. I had great strength and weight gain, i also knew nothing about pct and recovered naturally. I felt like shit and had no motivation to go to the gym for a long time after I stopped and I lost most of my gains


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## Rip (Aug 19, 2016)

How long after beginning taking it should you wait before having the bloodwork done?

Also, on this one site where you can buy deca, they say to take proviron with it. It's confusing, because I've always heard it was caber. Do you have any idea why they said proviron instead? They don't mention Caber at all. 




Jada said:


> Well speaking from experience  , I wouldn't run deca  without test.  Im not willing to take that chance or experiment  like you did, I can't afford to have a dead  PP now with the whole caber situation  that I say u have to keep at hand depending on ur history with prolactin  because  this cycle not once did I have to use it.  Everyone is different  and what works for u might not work for me . Having a AI I wouldn't fk around with that. I have the at all times and  use. Now like it is always said u have to try and the only way you going to know what's going on and if it's working is with BLOODWORK other than that u just playing a guessing game.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 19, 2016)

Rip said:


> How long after beginning taking it should you wait before having the bloodwork done?
> 
> Also, on this one site where you can buy deca, they say to take proviron with it. It's confusing, because I've always heard it was caber. Do you have any idea why they said proviron instead? They don't mention Caber at all.



They are trying to sell as many steroids as possible.

Ive heard proviron has a slight A I effect this and that but I wouldnt count on it.

The safest way to run the nandrolones is with test also have caber and an a i handy.


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## ToolSteel (Aug 19, 2016)

I've personally never understood the "AI on hand" mentality. Run it from the beginning. Long term you're better off having an e2 crash than rocks under your nipples.


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## zenergy (Aug 19, 2016)

always have all the proper tools
I am a PhD converted to bodybuilding 25 years ago and tend to believe and know the more knowledge and understanding one has to any space is the real answer.
1) always have post recovery,  on a microcellular level it's all relative
2) Run test with Deca but don't mix them in the same syringe. Don't have time to explain the antagonist issues
3) your first year on AAS is a free be after that always have pct, hcg, etc


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## zenergy (Aug 19, 2016)

vertical truth


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## Bro Bundy (Aug 19, 2016)

Why can't u mix deca and test in the same syringe?  This should be good


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## MrRippedZilla (Aug 19, 2016)

Honestly, I don't really see how this is even debatable.

Deca doesn't cover the same pathways as test and since your going to be shutting down your own production....it makes perfect sense from a health standpoint to at least add in a TRT level dose. 

I don't see how its going to be magically better for bodycomp, strength, whatever compared to deca + plus test.

The whole AI/DA thing has always been individual specific. 
Some people need an AI, others don't, with experience (and bloodwork) you tend to get a good idea of what camp you'll fall into. I've always been a fan of DAs for reasons that have nothing to do with this thread so won't comment too much there due to my bias on the subject.

Also, trying to justify a decision based on an experience you had 20-30yrs ago, when you know the recent data is against you, isn't a very good use of logic Z. Just saying.

Of course I don't have the experience you guys have so if someone can come up with an objective (none of this it worked for me bs) reason why deca only cycles are superior, then I'm all ears


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## zenergy (Aug 19, 2016)

Long story short these 2 anabolics are always competing for senior status. By separating the drugs don't intermix this giving you less aromitization. It's called osmosis,  very simple truth. Now with that being said, mixing test and eq is of greater value vs the previous theory. As you know never mix tren e and test e as the test e will slightly cancel.out the tren. Now if one chooses not to shoot separately I don't think it makes a significant difference early on but after long term use it absolutely does 1000%.


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## thqmas (Aug 19, 2016)

zenergy said:


> ...these 2 anabolics are always competing for senior status...



Do they actually "compete", I always seen it as a "first come first served". There's a connection, the receptor is occupied until synthesis is complete. If the receptor is occupied that's it. So if I'm not mistaken, the "competition" is in fact a race to the receptor site, no?


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## Runningwild (Aug 20, 2016)

zenergy said:


> Long story short these 2 anabolics are always competing for senior status. By separating the drugs don't intermix this giving you less aromitization. It's called osmosis,  very simple truth. Now with that being said, mixing test and eq is of greater value vs the previous theory. As you know never mix tren e and test e as the test e will slightly cancel.out the tren. Now if one chooses not to shoot separately I don't think it makes a significant difference early on but after long term use it absolutely does 1000%.



So this is only if the oils are mixed together but doesn't apply when both hormones are released in your body


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## Ryand (Aug 20, 2016)

Deca only = risk not worth reward.

Unless you wanna be a muscly lady


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## ECKSRATED (Aug 20, 2016)

Oh now u can't mix test and deca in the same syringe? Ok well I've been doing that for years and have no problems with that. And the test and Tren competing for receptors is bullshit in my opinion too. So much ****ing regurgitated bullshit bro science garbage it's ridiculous


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## Milo (Aug 20, 2016)

Even with test my pp doesn't get along with nandrolone. Couldn't imagine the misery taking it solo.


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## ken Sass (Aug 20, 2016)

deca without test, i will pass


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## DieYoungStrong (Aug 20, 2016)

Some of the absolute nonsense being said here is almost funny


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## MrRippedZilla (Aug 20, 2016)

zenergy said:


> Long story short these 2 anabolics are always competing for senior status. By separating the drugs don't intermix this giving you less aromitization. It's called osmosis,  very simple truth. Now with that being said, mixing test and eq is of greater value vs the previous theory. As you know never mix tren e and test e as the test e will slightly cancel.out the tren. Now if one chooses not to shoot separately I don't think it makes a significant difference early on but after long term use it absolutely does 1000%.



Bullshit.

The data on AR binding affinity is weak as hell so there is no way you can possibly come to those conclusions.

Binding affinity is also just one piece of the puzzle. 
For example, Dbol has weak binding affinity to the AR but more than makes up for it with a prolonged half life and increased tendency to stay in an unbound state (C17 alpha alkylation ftw brah). So the time the compound stays in your system, and it's ability to not be bound up by a serum protein (think SHBG) can make up for the fact that compound A binds to the AR "before" compound B.

Your also ignoring the fact that AR numbers increase over time (so we don't have the issue of limited receptor sites) and overall dosage MORE than makes up for any "competition" issues.

Like I said, bullshit.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

Guess its all about definitions and perceptions.
Do folks mix certain meds in solution? Yes, and with and without effects. Bottom line injecting different anabolics vs a combination serum has different effects. Now can the novice lifter notice? Not at first but after a significant amount of time they will have a totality different effect. Its called osmosis . Some people are hyper focused and pay attention to details. Its all about different pathways. Very simple process, just the way God made it. Trust me   i am not just following diacritics but have been involved in big drug studies within the FDA.Many off label applications through 3rd party funders. I would love to share some without revealing  any funding entitys or test subjects.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

agree, very true. Simple process.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

ECKSRATED said:


> Oh now u can't mix test and deca in the same syringe? Ok well I've been doing that for years and have no problems with that. And the test and Tren competing for receptors is bullshit in my opinion too. So much ****ing regurgitated bullshit bro science garbage it's ridiculous



Its all about perception for some folks that have no real experience in Chemistry. Chemistry is basic math numbers and mixing anabolics isn't a sin, but if you have the understanding and know why its not the BEST practice on a microcellualr level you will concur. Does it make a difference? Well, lets say everything matters and even what side the silverware is placed on. Guess we can also say osmosis is misunderstood. For me anything i put in my body will be ingested the most safe, effecient, and potent way possible. Why? its my body and i want perfection. Those that want an 85% outcome are welcome to follow the traditional views. Dont pour the coffee in the cup til its finished brewing.


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## Runningwild (Aug 20, 2016)

I really wanted to like this guy but don't


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> The data on AR binding affinity is weak as hell so there is no way you can possibly come to those conclusions.
> 
> ...



Respectively, my background is in Chemistry, PHD. i have been involved in NFL drug studies with various Pharmaceutical companies and i respectively totally disagree. Do you have any data to support your assumptions. Real Data exists- "Real data" if one has the understanding and background training to interpret.


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## Bro Bundy (Aug 20, 2016)

Ive been around long enough to know when ever one of these so called experts or dr or phds come around bragging who they are 99% of the time its a lie and total bullshit..Im gonna have fun watching u get taken apart zenergy u prick


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## Runningwild (Aug 20, 2016)

zenergy said:


> Respectively, my background is in Chemistry, PHD. i have been involved in NFL drug studies with various Pharmaceutical companies and i respectively totally disagree. Do you have any data to support your assumptions. Real Data exists- "Real data" if one has the understanding and background training to interpret.



You make a lot of claims but haven't really shown us any "real data" either.  Sorry bud but we aren't going to believe you just because you claim you are a chemist and have done drug studies


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

Runningwild said:


> I really wanted to like this guy but don't



Sorry you dont like me but most people dont like what they interpret wrongly. Many assumptions here. If you want me to form an abstarct and present it i would love to do that but that wouldn't go well as most folks understand body building vs invasive medicine. Just saying. No offense. When asked i try my best to provide people with real data and experiences not just based on injecting myself for the last 25 years but injecting others and animals as well. Working within a Level 1 Neuroscience institute supporting FDA studies funded by 3rd parties.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

Runningwild said:


> You make a lot of claims but haven't really shown us any "real data" either.  Sorry bud but we aren't going to believe you just because you claim you are a chemist and have done drug studies



And what data, abstracts, or studies have you shown. I am a lifter also and with my work and real world experience i dont have to prove myself. i challenge you to show me through real data not something you read in a book but real tangible eveidence.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

Runningwild said:


> You make a lot of claims but haven't really shown us any "real data" either.  Sorry bud but we aren't going to believe you just because you claim you are a chemist and have done drug studies



Please show me your data not from something you read. We all have injected serums, thats not data. We all claim to notice major differentials from cycle to cycle but  I am talking about real logged data....I will Mention one name and its probably going overboard as i signed a NCNDA with this md years ago  to protect our work from being posted outside of our projects and the test samples i sent to him - Research this MD Julian Bailes, his work is in head trauma and i personally helped him and worked with him on several projects involving anabolics.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 20, 2016)

What is a good ratio to use while running Test & Nandrolone ?


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

Runningwild said:


> So this is only if the oils are mixed together but doesn't apply when both hormones are released in your body



I am stating the fact that osmosis is a true effect in any chemical reaction. Ill break it down in a better street smart approach , its my fault for not explaining better, drink some coffee black, now clean your palate and mix some fiber in your cofee and see how it taste and how much off the stimulate you respond to.


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## zenergy (Aug 20, 2016)

good ratio for what goal. I ran test e 250 mg/ml  and deca 400 every 7 days for 10 weeks, Every month 10,000 ius of hcg and clomid 50 mgs or more every day at the age of 35 with fabulous effects. Continued on clomid for 4 MONTHS monitoring my blood work and also have my sperm tested under a microscope from an expert fertility MD in VA. No cycle again for 7 months. A man could run clomid (low dosage) for a substantial amount of time with no real significant bad long term damaging effects.


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## thqmas (Aug 20, 2016)

zenergy said:


> Please show me your data not from something you read. We all have injected serums, thats not data. We all claim to notice major differentials from cycle to cycle but  I am talking about real logged data....I will Mention one name and its probably going overboard as i signed a NCNDA with this md years ago  to protect our work from being posted outside of our projects and the test samples i sent to him - Research this MD Julian Bailes, his work is in head trauma and i personally helped him and worked with him on several projects involving anabolics.



You mean the guy portrayed by Alec Boldwin in the movie 'Concussion'?


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## MrRippedZilla (Aug 20, 2016)

zenergy said:


> Respectively, my background is in Chemistry, PHD. i have been involved in NFL drug studies with various Pharmaceutical companies and i respectively totally disagree. Do you have any data to support your assumptions. Real Data exists- "Real data" if one has the understanding and background training to interpret.



My background is in Biology, BA. What's your point?
No offence, but I've seen people boasting about their credentials on forums before....yet it rarely stops them from spouting complete bullshit. 

Now let's get down to business. You are the one who made some pretty bold claims to begin with and therefore the burden of proof is on YOU to provide evidence for those claims. So, please cite evidence for the following:
- You can have less aromatization by separating the injection of deca & test.
- Mixing Tren and Test will cause test to cancel out the tren. 

Once you have cited said evidence, I will respond in kind


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## Runningwild (Aug 20, 2016)

Looks like zenergy does not like when being called out to backup his claims


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## John Ziegler (Aug 21, 2016)

zenergy said:


> good ratio for what goal.



What would be a minimum dose ratio of Npp to add to a trt dose of 50mgs test c every 3.5 days ?

The goal would be to add a little strength & size over the course of 10 weeks without needing to run an A I.


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## Runningwild (Aug 21, 2016)

Zeigler Robertson said:


> What would be a minimum dose ratio of Npp to add to a trt dose of 50mgs test c every 3.5 days ?
> 
> The goal would be to add a little strength & size over the course of 10 weeks without needing to run an A I.



Do you need an AI while on your trt dose?  I would at least keep the test at a trt I hate being shut down and the sides that come along with it, which is one of the big reasons I got on trt to begin with because life was just about miserable i could not think about doing that intentionally to myself.  I would say run your npp like you would have run it if you were going to run it alone and just throw in your trt dose and see how you feel and get some blood work.  If you don't need an AI at your trt dose you shouldn't need it


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## BigGameHunter (Aug 22, 2016)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Honestly, I don't really see how this is even debatable.



Pretty much sums up this entire thread as far as Im concerned.  Thank you RIP.  

These are the kind of threads that drive me nuts.  Not because of the question but because of the roaches and armchair qb mentality that crawls out of the woodwork in the process. 

Zig I think that if your on TRT it should be TRT.  Minute doses of NPP etc are just a waste of time and money.  Dude, I know you know what to do.  Your a stick to the basics kind of guy from what I remember.  I think it is possible to over complicate things and loose sight of the importance of the process of doing it right.  In short, if your on TRT do that and if your going to run a cycle, run it until its done then for fuks sake come off of it and repeat.


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