# Thoughts on short 2-4 week cycles?



## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

Hey guys, if this is a topic that's been discussed at length then I want to apologize in advance as I haven't been able to find it.

Some time ago, there were arguments on the forums being made favoring short 2-4 week cycles as opposed to the usual 10-16 week cycle.  Obviously the shorter cycles would consist of faster acting components (i.e. dbol, test prop, winny, tren, etc) as opposed to the longer acting components (test enanthate, EQ, deca, you get the point).

From what I recall, the reason the shorter cycles were being favored by many was based mainly around the belief that the body's natural test would not become suppressed after only 2-4 weeks - meaning no PCT would really be needed.  The other obvious benefits would be not having to deal with sh*tty bloodwork, as well as recovery time being shortened so one could get more cycles in.

Did this theory every take off and has anyone on here tried it with any success or failure?  I'm curious to hear anyone's stories regarding this approach as it does sound enticing assuming it's effective - although I imagine your ass would look like a pin cushion after sticking yourself with prop/tren ED/EOD for a month straight.

Experiences?  Thoughts?  Thanks in advance for any info on short cycling!


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 7, 2014)

It's false to assume a short cycle won't suppress you. You will experience suppression shortly after the very first injection of anything or once metabolized in the liver if using an oral. Will you be fully shut down after such a short cycle, in most cases probably not but that doesn't change the fact that suppression is still happening. A single shot of nandrolone can shut you down. Tren possibly even moreso. 

Some ppl do prefer shorter cycles. Me personally I would rather do longer length cycles. HCG or HMG is a great way to aid in recovery from suppression after a 12-16wk cycle. It's never guaranteed but it certainly helps.


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## ECKSRATED (May 7, 2014)

2 week cycles are cool. If you wanna be small.


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## Dtownry (May 7, 2014)

I was going to go 4. Decided on 20...sighhhh.


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## Northerner (May 7, 2014)

Thing with time on and dose is, there's a bell curve.

You either need to be on long enough for the compounds to start reaching peak plasma levels to start effecting anabolism/metabolism, or, you need to be doing such big doses that half lives become less important, because you're not waiting for the compound to concentrate enough to start having an effect; it's taking effect almost immediately because there's so much of it.

If you want your short cycles to be just as effective as your long ones, you'll have to experiment with dosages and cycle lengths - this can take years to perfect.

Personally I find 6 weeks cycles  to be great. 4 weeks has never felt long enough personally. It's short enough to the point where you're not getting sick of it, long enough to feel like you're making use of the compounds in your body. Also with 6 weeks, I'm not running stupid doses, like I'd feel the need to do with a 4 week cycle to make up for the short cycle duration. This is more relevant to injectable/oral cycles and not oral-only cycles. 

Either way, your HPTA will be negatively effected. Best thing you can do is run HCG along the cycle and after, with consistent dosing.


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

Northerner said:


> Thing with time on and dose is, there's a bell curve.
> 
> You either need to be on long enough for the compounds to start reaching peak plasma levels to start effecting anabolism/metabolism, or, you need to be doing such big doses that half lives become less important, because you're not waiting for the compound to concentrate enough to start having an effect; it's taking effect almost immediately because there's so much of it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply.  This is great information.  You mention HCG both during and post cycle - Is the HCG effective from a standpoint of preserving one's natural test in a way?  Or is it more effective due to some sort of anti-catabolic effect it may have similar to something like Clenbuterol.

Also, forgive the odd question, but are Clomid/Nolva still relevant choices in regards to pct?  I've been away from this for a while and am noticing that the way people are cycling has advanced considerably since the time that I was active on the forums nearly a decade ago.

Thanks again for the reply.


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> It's false to assume a short cycle won't suppress you. You will experience suppression shortly after the very first injection of anything or once metabolized in the liver if using an oral. Will you be fully shut down after such a short cycle, in most cases probably not but that doesn't change the fact that suppression is still happening. A single shot of nandrolone can shut you down. Tren possibly even moreso.
> 
> Some ppl do prefer shorter cycles. Me personally I would rather do longer length cycles. HCG or HMG is a great way to aid in recovery from suppression after a 12-16wk cycle. It's never guaranteed but it certainly helps.



Thanks for the reply.  Back when the idea of shorter/more frequent cycles was being talked about so heavily, there was heavy debate as to whether or not one would be suppressed and if so, it would be on a minimal level.  From what I'm getting from you, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case (it sounded too good to be true at the time).

Also, you mention that a single shot of nandrolone or tren can shut you down.  I'm curious if that's because those are non-androgenic?  Or is there another reason you mentioned those two?  I know that this isn't really relevant to the subject at hand but it got me curious.

Thanks again for the input, it's greatly appreciated.


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## Northerner (May 7, 2014)

Akkura said:


> Thanks for the reply.  This is great information.  You mention HCG both during and post cycle - Is the HCG effective from a standpoint of preserving one's natural test in a way?  Or is it more effective due to some sort of anti-catabolic effect it may have similar to something like Clenbuterol.
> 
> Also, forgive the odd question, but are Clomid/Nolva still relevant choices in regards to pct?  I've been away from this for a while and am noticing that the way people are cycling has advanced considerably since the time that I was active on the forums nearly a decade ago.
> 
> Thanks again for the reply.



This is all my personal opinion. Some people may disagree so it's always worth doing some deeper research.

Yes, to put it simply, you're using HCG to 'trick' your body into producing natural testosterone, even with exogenous testosterone being introduced. Ideally on any cycle, you want your body to run as regular as possible. The more your body starts to act differently, the more it will do to counter-act (such as decreasing natural testosterone, increasing other sex hormones, etc) and find homeostasis.

I don't like using HCG for too long. Because I run short cycles, I get to use it throughout the cycle. I'm pretty confident I know what my body best responds to in terms of frequency, dose, and duration. Most people would say if you're running HCG during the cycle, there's no need for it in PCT. Problem is, whatever compounds you were using during cycle may still be active post-cycle, depending on half lives. Though on the other hand, at least your HPTA hasn't been shut down for too long.

So there's a lot of factors involved when it comes to planning your HCG and PCT. Duration, dose, and of course how much of an effect the AAS you're taking has an effect on your body's HPTA. As a lot of people know, 19-nor compounds such as Tren and Deca are harsh on the HPTA, and may take more time to recover than non 19-nor compounds.

I'm not too sure as haven't bothered much with Clen, as have always felt there are more effective, and more comfortable alternatives. Though I personally believe the anti-catabolicism effects you may get from Clenbuterol are outweighed by Clenbuterol's myotoxic effects (necrosis of the heart). If you're looking for an anti-catabolic agent, I'd much rather use a low dose of Testosterone (which has no controversies or confusion when it comes to its anti-catabolic effects, unlike Clenbuterol), or the good old fashioned way, managing calories and macros efficiently.

Yes Nolva and Clomid is still relevant. There hasn't been forward progression (that I've seen) that's worth mentioning when it comes to the classic Nolva/Clomid PCT.


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

Northerner said:


> This is all my personal opinion. Some people may disagree so it's always worth doing some deeper research.
> 
> Yes, to put it simply, you're using HCG to 'trick' your body into producing natural testosterone, even with exogenous testosterone being introduced. Ideally on any cycle, you want your body to run as regular as possible. The more your body starts to act differently, the more it will do to counter-act (such as decreasing natural testosterone, increasing other sex hormones, etc) and find homeostasis.
> 
> ...



Northerner,

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge.  Clearly I have some "catching up" to do regarding my knowledge regarding all this.

If I can just pick your brain one last time, would you mind giving me an example of a 6 week cycle thats worked for you as well as your stats?  Also, are you using Clomid/Nolva for PCT or do you find that the HCG is enough for you given the 6 week duration of your cycle(s).

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge.  While I know I still have plenty of researching to do, your 6 week cycle approach sounds like something I'd really be leaning toward doing for my first cycle after not being "on" for so many years.


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## TheBlob (May 7, 2014)

6 weeker.. Sounds good to me. 8 weeks sounds better. I like the short esthers so I am biased. Test P with NPP is a good one.


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## TheBlob (May 7, 2014)

Hell to be honest Test P all by itself is great... Seriously


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

TheBlob said:


> 6 weeker.. Sounds good to me. 8 weeks sounds better. I like the short esthers so I am biased. Test P with NPP is a good one.



Thanks for your input.  Was wondering about Test P alone but your post below addressed that.  Sometimes simple is the best way to go 

Thanks again!


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 7, 2014)

Akkura said:


> Thanks for the reply.  Back when the idea of shorter/more frequent cycles was being talked about so heavily, there was heavy debate as to whether or not one would be suppressed and if so, it would be on a minimal level.  From what I'm getting from you, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case (it sounded too good to be true at the time).
> 
> Also, you mention that a single shot of nandrolone or tren can shut you down.  I'm curious if that's because those are non-androgenic?  Or is there another reason you mentioned those two?  I know that this isn't really relevant to the subject at hand but it got me curious.
> 
> Thanks again for the input, it's greatly appreciated.



The reason suppression is more harsh with those two is bc they act as progestins which will negatively impact the HPTA ontop of what all asteroids do anyway, in the case of deca it is in your system for a very long time and it's metabolites even longer so suppression continues for a longer period of time, in the case of deca it aromatizes which negatvkely impacts HPTA also. 

There's more info in my book Anabolics and in a article by Nandi which I'll try to find later.


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## snake (May 7, 2014)

Like Doc and Northerner said, look into HCG.

As for a short cycle; here are my thoughts....
Longer is better even at less of a dose. Everyone agrees, AAS without training will give you nothing. If training is such an impotant factor in AAS use, shouldn't the exposure time to training be as important? Think of how many more training sessions you will have on a 12 week run.

Again, just my thoughts.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 7, 2014)

snake said:


> Like Doc and Northerner said, look into HCG.
> 
> As for a short cycle; here are my thoughts....
> Longer is better even at less of a dose. Everyone agrees, AAS without training will give you nothing. If training is such an impotant factor in AAS use, shouldn't the exposure time to training be as important? Think of how many more training sessions you will have on a 12 week run.
> ...



Your thoughts are spot on Snake


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## NbleSavage (May 7, 2014)

snake said:


> Like Doc and Northerner said, look into HCG.
> 
> As for a short cycle; here are my thoughts....
> Longer is better even at less of a dose. Everyone agrees, AAS without training will give you nothing. If training is such an impotant factor in AAS use, shouldn't the exposure time to training be as important? Think of how many more training sessions you will have on a 12 week run.
> ...



This is well-said, Mate.


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> The reason suppression is more harsh with those two is bc they act as progestins which will negatively impact the HPTA ontop of what all asteroids do anyway, in the case of deca it is in your system for a very long time and it's metabolites even longer so suppression continues for a longer period of time, in the case of deca it aromatizes which negatvkely impacts HPTA also.
> 
> There's more info in my book Anabolics and in a article by Nandi which I'll try to find later.



Thanks for the info Doc.  Also, where would I be able to buy your book?  Sounds like something I'd be interested in.

Thank you again!


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## DieYoungStrong (May 7, 2014)

Bill Roberts is the guy who came up with these short cycle ideas. He's not half as cool as he thinks.


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## Akkura (May 7, 2014)

snake said:


> Like Doc and Northerner said, look into HCG.
> 
> As for a short cycle; here are my thoughts....
> Longer is better even at less of a dose. Everyone agrees, AAS without training will give you nothing. If training is such an impotant factor in AAS use, shouldn't the exposure time to training be as important? Think of how many more training sessions you will have on a 12 week run.
> ...



Thanks Snake, definitely something to consider.  The allure of shorter acting components is heavy but at the same time a shorter cycle structure almost seems counter-productive from a training standpoint.

Thanks again for your input


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 7, 2014)

Akkura said:


> Thanks for the info Doc.  Also, where would I be able to buy your book?  Sounds like something I'd be interested in.
> 
> Thank you again!



I didn't write the book, it's just I bought a copy to use as reference material. It's called 'Anabolics' 10th edition by William Llewellyn.


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## RJ (May 8, 2014)

My biggest problem with short cycles is homeostasis. Longer cycles don't eliminate it, but they do afford your body a chance to acclimate to the new weight you have gained. Our bodies don't wanna be all big and jacked. It's not how were bred over years of evolution. And your body will always fight to go back to its natural comfort zone.

Of course long cycles mean longer recovery. I for one have always been ok with trt because IMO men over 40 should consider it anyway. It's been 6 years and I feel great. And I'm much bigger than most short cycle believers. Mlp


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## shredd3r (May 8, 2014)

I'm a firm believer in getting those receptors saturated. I came across this article awhile back about using the short cycle method to shock the system

I'm still not on board with the idea, a good read none the less.


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## Yaya (May 8, 2014)

My first cycle was supposed be only 4 weeks..look where that got me.

It's like being starving and only having one bite of the the slice of pizza someone just gave u..

And it will mess with ur levels


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## snake (May 8, 2014)

RJ said:


> Our bodies don't wanna be all big and jacked. It's not how were bred over years of evolution. And your body will always fight to go back to its natural comfort zone.



I agree! We were not built to stand our ground and fight. It amazes me that we made it this far, only thanks to our brain. In the animal kingdom we are inferior, almost defenseless; no claws, a short and weak bite pattern, weak compared to amimals of equal size. All we could do is run and hope the fat guy got it.


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## Get Some (May 8, 2014)

You can add 20 lbs in 4 weeks with just test prop and dbol. The doses you have to run are higher than normal and I don't recommend it, but it can be done. 6 week cycles with short esters are actually the way to go IMO, especially for very suppressive compounds like Tren. Run tren ace and test ace/prop for 6 weeks with an oral like var/winny/dbol (depending on desired result) and you should have good success, shorter PCT, and quicker recovery time. 

PCTs are all out of whack these days, there is not a "one size fits all" method for each cycle. There is no way a 4 week PCT with both clomid and nolva should be done for a 6 week cycle, yet I see people recommend it all the time. That's my next subject for a write up, PCTs for different cycle lengths and compounds


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## PillarofBalance (May 9, 2014)

Get Some said:


> You can add 20 lbs in 4 weeks with just test prop and dbol. The doses you have to run are higher than normal and I don't recommend it, but it can be done. 6 week cycles with short esters are actually the way to go IMO, especially for very suppressive compounds like Tren. Run tren ace and test ace/prop for 6 weeks with an oral like var/winny/dbol (depending on desired result) and you should have good success, shorter PCT, and quicker recovery time.
> 
> PCTs are all out of whack these days, there is not a "one size fits all" method for each cycle. There is no way a 4 week PCT with both clomid and nolva should be done for a 6 week cycle, yet I see people recommend it all the time. That's my next subject for a write up, PCTs for different cycle lengths and compounds



When people recommend short cycles like this GS is the benefit just the recovery?


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## RJ (May 9, 2014)

Get Some said:


> You can add 20 lbs in 4 weeks with just test prop and dbol.



i think its key to note this is bodyweight, not actual muscle. I know that inexperienced guys get confused sometimes hearing this.


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## Akkura (May 9, 2014)

snake said:


> I agree! We were not built to stand our ground and fight. It amazes me that we made it this far, only thanks to our brain. In the animal kingdom we are inferior, almost defenseless; no claws, a short and weak bite pattern, weak compared to amimals of equal size. All we could do is run and hope the fat guy got it.



Your obversation had me thinking.. but your last sentence had me rolling!!

In all seriousness though thank you Snake for your input into this thread.  I took a lot away in terms of updating my knowledge base.

Hope you have a great weekend!


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## Akkura (May 9, 2014)

RJ said:


> i think its key to note this is bodyweight, not actual muscle. I know that inexperienced guys get confused sometimes hearing this.



Yeah.. but we can all dream


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## Akkura (May 9, 2014)

Get Some said:


> You can add 20 lbs in 4 weeks with just test prop and dbol. The doses you have to run are higher than normal and I don't recommend it, but it can be done. 6 week cycles with short esters are actually the way to go IMO, especially for very suppressive compounds like Tren. Run tren ace and test ace/prop for 6 weeks with an oral like var/winny/dbol (depending on desired result) and you should have good success, shorter PCT, and quicker recovery time.
> 
> PCTs are all out of whack these days, there is not a "one size fits all" method for each cycle. There is no way a 4 week PCT with both clomid and nolva should be done for a 6 week cycle, yet I see people recommend it all the time. That's my next subject for a write up, PCTs for different cycle lengths and compounds




Thanks so much for your input.  I'm thinking a simple 6 straight weeks of Test P is a great way to start back up.

So you're not with the idea of doing 4wks PCT w/ Clomid/Nolva, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on HCG.  Run both during and after?  Ditch it altogether?

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.


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