# Liver Supplements



## username1 (Jan 18, 2013)

So, when I was on my test 500/wk and var 50mg day blast. All the liver supplements I was taking didn't seem to have an effect on liver enzymes, I was in the 80's I believe for AST/ALT. I was taking Liver Juice, Liv 52, and UDCA. For my next blast I'm wanting to run dbol and was researching for liver protection for dbol and ended up coming across two supplements that seem to have positive reviews. I was wondering if anybody has heard of these:

- Tyler Liver Detoxification Factors
- Essentiale Forte N

From what I read Tyler's Liver Detox factors used to be prescription and hospitals and doctors used to use it and prescribe. For Essentiale Forte, according to Amazon's description it says, "Clinically proven to RE-BUILD the damaged liver's cells."

I know some people say that there's no such thing as a liver protection, I'm starting to believe that based on my own recent with all those liver supplements on my previous blast. However, I'm willing to continue to try and see if I can find anything that works. I already ordered each of those, and will start running them as soon as I get them. It's been a month since I ended the blast and right now my AST is 39 and ALT 44. I'm going to see if those supplements will lower it, it's still on the high end (though I know working out / lifting can increase it as well). I will update this thread on my progress and take those supplements on dbol as well and probably get tested during or at the end of the run.


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## username1 (Jan 18, 2013)

Some good info on Essential Forte N - here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentiale


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## username1 (Jan 18, 2013)

"integrative therapeutics detoxification factors" is the other name it goes by now


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## gymrat827 (Jan 18, 2013)

liver supps do help, but once you get off the oral is when your liver will regenerate itself.  its an amazing organ,  can handle so much abuse.  

Id still take the liver supps during cycle, pre cycle and post.  But theres lots of guys who run orals for short amounts of time with nothing.


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## AlphaD (Jan 18, 2013)

I have not ran any AAS cycles, yet.....but I have ran two prohormone cycles.  And I have always used AEGIS by Antaeus Labs.  I'm posting the detail from Antaeus site here below:


Aegis

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine + Tauroursodeoxycholic acid

There are many types of liver injury, but only one is normally associated with the use of oral androgens -- cholestasis. This condition is defined as a failure of normal bile to reach the duodenum, which may be due to a number of different pathological states between the hepatocyte and the ampulla of Vater. When one takes oral androgens (typically methylated at C17a) the physical structure of the hepatocyte is altered -- microfilaments and canaliculi become less contractile. Disruptions in the canalicular bile salt export pump may also occur. This leads to impaired bile flow and the retention of highly cytotoxic hydrophobic bile salts. At low concentrations, these retained bile salts cause apoptosis; at higher concentrations, necrosis and severe liver damage.

This is where AEGIS comes into the picture. It was designed with users of oral androgens in mind, and brings together the best anti-cholestatic ingredients available.

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid:
-Can prevent apoptosis during cholestasis. Toxic bile acids produce apoptosis Via fas- and TRAIL- death receptor mediated pathways. Both are, to some degree, dependent on the translocation of the 'bax' pro-apoptoic molecule from the cytosol of hepatocytes to the cell mitochondria. TUDCA prevents bax translocation, strongly stabilizes mitochondrial membranes, and activates the MAPK pro-survival pathway in hepatocytes. (1) These effects protect hepatocytes from bax-related apoptosis.
-Is a hydrophilic bile acid, and its presence markedly shifts the bile pool towards hydrophilicity, which, to some extent, detoxifies it. When used consistently, especially at pharmacological doses, TUDCA (along with UDCA) eventually becomes the predominant bile acid in the liver and in general circulation. (2)
-Directly stimulates bile secretion via modulating cellular signalling pathways in hepatocytes, such as ERK, src, PKC and others. These signalling pathways generally phosphorylate, or activate, the bile salt export pump (BSEP) and other processes involved in bile export/secretion. (For example, PKC-alpha-mediated secretion of HCO3-.) (3, 4, 5)

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine:
-Stabilizes cellular membranes and dilates bile canaliculi. This former effect has been shown to protect human cells from hydrophobic bile salt induced apoptosis (6), and the latter may serve to counteract the reduction in contractility seen in androgen-induced cholestasis. (7)
-Oral androgen administration may decrease hepatic Na+, K+-ATPase, Ca2+, Mg2+-ATPase and F-actin levels --- all of which may be restored, and even raised, by polyenylphosphatidylcholine administration. (8)
-Is secreted into bile by hepatocytes, where it serves as a major component of the micelles in which bile acids are emulsified. Increased levels of biliary phosphatidylcholine reduces the cytotoxicity of bile acids, whereas phosphatidylcholine-secretion impairment (as is often seen in ABCB4 disease) is characterized by extremely severe cholestatic liver disease. (9)

To summarize: Aegis is highly-potent, highly-specific liver protection for people taking hepatotoxic oral androgens. Superior protection cannot be bought, nor should it be needed.


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## username1 (Jan 18, 2013)

AlphaD said:


> I have not ran any AAS cycles, yet.....but I have ran two prohormone cycles.  And I have always used AEGIS by Antaeus Labs.  I'm posting the detail from Antaeus site here below:
> 
> 
> Aegis.



Thanks for the info. I've been taking UDCA but, I will get this also. What was your dosage? Did you monitor your enzyme levels, does it have any effect on that or you can't tell because it's purpose is to prevent cholestasis?


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## AlphaD (Jan 18, 2013)

No problem man.  Order it from a discount nutrition place so you save some money!  Any how I think I dosed (3) morn and (3) evening, per bottles directions.  I had no elevations occur.  I couldn't really tell of any other effect.  I needed to protect my liver because I was running some harsh compounds UD and EPI


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## gymrat827 (Jan 18, 2013)

the man power research liver support is 40 or 50 pills for 7 bux.  tough to beat that.


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## SAD (Jan 18, 2013)

STOP!!!  Everyone is missing the issue here.

If your liver values were elevated to that degree while running Var at 50mg/day, you have something else going on.  You either did not have legit var and it was actually winny or a mix of winny and something else, or you have a preexisting liver condition.  I guess it's a possibility that you were an idiot and drank hard liquor heavily every night, but I've seen enough of your posts to effectively rule that out.

So instead of asking what you can take to not have the same issues this time around, you should instead ask YOUR DOCTOR why your liver values are inflated and how to determine if it is a medical condition.  Also, if you're not 100% on your source's legitimacy, then cut ties and move on.


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## username1 (Jan 18, 2013)

The Var was scripted through my TRT clinic. I did get tested at my GI doc. there's where the liver values came back as elevated. I told her I was on TRT and that's the reason my values might be elevated, she asked me to get the medication adjusted and then she wants me tested again in about 6 weeks. So, after I ended the blast, I went back to get tested again (last week) and my liver values came back as AST 39 and ALT 44. At that point she told me everything else was normal. This was a hepatic blood panel. Not sure if I should be getting other blood tests done to check for other issues? I also had an abdominal ultra sound done and I think they were supposed to check for everything, including liver but, only thing they found was that I have a pollip on Gallbladder. 

I did used to drink a lot of alcohol, hard liquor for a while. However after I quit everything I had blood tests done and my liver values came back at AST 17 and ALT 17. I guess it's not to say that there wasn't any underlying damage done, maybe that's a reason. Once I started TRT my liver values went up to the 30's for AST/ALT. 




SAD said:


> STOP!!!  Everyone is missing the issue here.
> 
> If your liver values were elevated to that degree while running Var at 50mg/day, you have something else going on.  You either did not have legit var and it was actually winny or a mix of winny and something else, or you have a preexisting liver condition.  I guess it's a possibility that you were an idiot and drank hard liquor heavily every night, but I've seen enough of your posts to effectively rule that out.
> 
> So instead of asking what you can take to not have the same issues this time around, you should instead ask YOUR DOCTOR why your liver values are inflated and how to determine if it is a medical condition.  Also, if you're not 100% on your source's legitimacy, then cut ties and move on.


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## SAD (Jan 18, 2013)

username1 said:


> The Var was scripted through my TRT clinic. I did get tested at my GI doc. there's where the liver values came back as elevated. I told her I was on TRT and that's the reason my values might be elevated, she asked me to get the medication adjusted and then she wants me tested again in about 6 weeks. So, after I ended the blast, I went back to get tested again (last week) and my liver values came back as AST 39 and ALT 44. At that point she told me everything else was normal. This was a hepatic blood panel. Not sure if I should be getting other blood tests done to check for other issues? I also had an abdominal ultra sound done and I think they were supposed to check for everything, including liver but, only thing they found was that I have a pollip on Gallbladder.
> 
> I did used to drink a lot of alcohol, hard liquor for a while. However after I quit everything I had blood tests done and my liver values came back at AST 17 and ALT 17. I guess it's not to say that there wasn't any underlying damage done, maybe that's a reason. Once I started TRT my liver values went up to the 30's for AST/ALT.



Interesting.  If we rule out the possibility that it is a preexisting medical condition, then I would bet cash on your var being something else.  I've run var at 100-150mg/day for months on end with only slightly (less than you are currently at) elevated liver values.  Something is amiss here my friend, I can almost guarantee it.


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## SHRUGS (Jan 19, 2013)

I agree with SAD. My liver enzymes were up to 70 from drinkin whiskey. I stopped drinkin and took Liv-52 everyday for 4 months. Last blood work done AST 21 ALT 22. The whiskey is what had mine elevated and the Liv-52 does work. If you're lookin for somethin over the top for liver aid then pick up some Synthergine. It's not cheap but if used with Liv-52 or MPs liver aid you shouldnt need to use much. Also consider talkin to your doc about Hepatitis. !SHRUGS!


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## PFM (Jan 19, 2013)

My liver values were of moderate concern, one week later I tested again with only three days off all supplements and they're back in range.

Remember guys all those vitamins and BS are not regulated. Who knows WTF is in them.


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## username1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Well, to update the thread. I had mentioned "Tylers Detoxification" I tried it, was taking it regularly. I don't think this worked for me at all, it seems that my liver values actually went up. I dont' know for sure if it was because of that or not. I do know that I did not change anything. When I had gone off my first blast of var (50mg/for 7 weeks) + 500/test. I took a blood test after about 6 weeks and my results were: AST 39 and ALT 44. Which AST only out of range by 4 points and ALT within range. 

Around that time I started Tylers Detox, then I took another blood test almost 5 weeks later before I was going to start my next blast and I have not changed anything else all I can think of is adding the Tylers Detoxification, on this blood test I came back at AST 48 and ALT 47. I wasn't on blast, so you would think the numbers would continue to drop over time. If 6 weeks after quitting orals and your blast, and back to TRT dose and you're at AST 39 / ALT 44. Then 5 weeks later another blood test, your enzymes should continue to lower since you're giving them a break, shouldn't it? Well the Tylers Detoxification is the only thing added, everything else since the first blood test has been the same. Now, the AST/ALT values went up.

At that point I figured the Tylers hasn't done much of anything (if not worst) so I stopped taking it. Next, I started the Essential Forte N. I started taking this regularly and I'm on blast right now 650 test and 450 NPP. I had another recent blood test done 4 weeks after starting the NPP/TPP blast and my results are: AST 53 and ALT 55.

So it would make sense now that my values went up a bit after starting the blast but, they haven't gone up much from where they were before I started the blast. I also took this blood test immediately after the gym, had no choice had appointments that day. I know from working out it can make your enzymes go up but, to me whatever it's at is reasonable. So, I'm going to continue with the Essential Forte N only draw back is that it's expensive. I might try to take less than the daily recommended dose after some time to cut down on costs. Still need to do more blood tests with Essential Forte to just to confirm.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 24, 2013)

Nice log and I hope you find a winner, Mate.


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## username1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Also even though I'm trying to find ways to lower my AST/ALT its not really the best way to determine liver damage there are other values like GGT


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## username1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Accidentally hit reply before I was done but basically as I was saying there are other tests that need to be done if you're really concerned with liver damage AST/ALT isn't the definitive indicator those values can be skewed since hard exercise can alter those numbers as well.


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## RowdyBrad (Mar 27, 2013)

I use the MP liver aid and it seems to work great.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 27, 2013)

RowdyBrad said:


> I use the MP liver aid and it seems to work great.



You get bloods done while on it? What were your AST & ALT scores?


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## SHRUGS (Mar 28, 2013)

Liv-52 daily and a little bit of synthergine here n there does the trick just fine. And yes have bloods done with proof on these. Alt & AST were in the 70s and had bloods done 3months later after using these products and numbers came back at 20 & 21. !SHRUGS!


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## j2048b (Mar 28, 2013)

Nice shrugs! I want to give both a try, if ur on anavar will these def help? Just asking for future useage


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## username1 (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm on synthergine right now because of dbol. Will be interesting to see where my numbers are when I get bloods done.


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## gymrat827 (Mar 28, 2013)

MP liver and Liv52 are both great products.


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## username1 (Apr 13, 2013)

I've been on dbol, started with 20mg a day for a week, then 40mg, then 50mg. I think I'm on the 4th week going to run for two more weeks. Well, I've been taking synthergine, and also that Aegis supplement that was mentioned. My liver values came back at AST 44 and ALT 43 (within range), the AST is only slightly above the range. These values are better than when I was on just the TPP/NPP. Last week my numbers came back at AST 55 and ALT 71. I guess it takes some time for the synthergine to start working, next time I'll probably start it a couple weeks before I start the dbol. Can't believe my numbers are so close within range, I was worried at first.


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## username1 (Apr 14, 2013)

Here are screenshots of my blood tests, my AST/ALT is less on 50mg dbol than it was before I started the blast! There's a big difference. I'm never going to run orals without synthergine.


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