# Starting AND Ending with an Oral.



## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

Okay so here is the dealio'

Deca     600mg/w 1-14
TestE    500mg/w 1-16
DMZ3.0   30mg/w 1-5
stane 12.5mg ed
prami .25mg ed

Could I run dbol my last four weeks?  6 week gap in between the orals.  Probably run it at 40mg ed, never used dbol before just happened to get some and decide to go with the DMZ because it's said to yield better gainz!


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## Metalhead1 (Feb 27, 2014)

I dont see why not. Just be sure to take NAC throughout and bloodwork would be a good idea to make sure your liver values arent too high before starting your second oral


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

Yes sir.  Gonna get bloods in about 5 weeks and I'll check it out.

Ah yes current stats:
age:  24
weight: 195lbs
height: 6'2"
bf: 12%

Diet 3500 cals Fats: 69 Carbs: 378 Protein: 320.  Bulking up.


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## Metalhead1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Looks very similar to my ORIGINAL bulking diet. You could seriously lower the protein a bit imo. I gained 20lbs off a test/deca cycle with the diet macros youve mentioned without the orals


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## SFGiants (Feb 27, 2014)

I would run the test higher.

My current cycle

Test C 1g
NPP 600mg
Var 100mg
Aromasin 25mg day
Cabaser on hand

Plan is:

24 weeks on the NPP
Week 2 to 14 Var
Test I don't come off


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> I would run the test higher.
> 
> My current cycle
> 
> ...



Not sure if I'm ready for a gram of test brotha.  Plus from what I'm reading here I'm not sure if I wanna order anything else from an online source until I get bloods at least.  

Oh and by "not ready", basically I mean I'm a giant vagina.  (Just to beat you to the punch line =P)


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## TheBlob (Feb 27, 2014)

24 weeks on NPP? I love you SFG, was just thinking of extending my cycle.. Now im sure I am


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## SFGiants (Feb 27, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> Not sure if I'm ready for a gram of test brotha.  Plus from what I'm reading here I'm not sure if I wanna order anything else from an online source until I get bloods at least.
> 
> Oh and by "not ready", basically I mean I'm a giant vagina.  (Just to beat you to the punch line =P)



If I don't run Test higher then Deca or NPP my dick breaks until I up the Test.


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## SFGiants (Feb 27, 2014)

TheBlob said:


> 24 weeks on NPP? I love you SFG, was just thinking of extending my cycle.. Now im sure I am



Last time I did this I went from a real lean 225 to a real lean 250 then after the 250 I started getting fatter because I got a lot dirtier to reach 270 but today I'm back down to 250.


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## Metalhead1 (Feb 27, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> Last time I did this I went from a real lean 225 to a real lean 250 then after the 250 I started getting fatter because I got a lot dirtier to reach 270 but today I'm back down to 250.



Sound like a ****ing monster 

I had good results on a gram of test but honestly think i would have got about the same results with less. Felt like a waste in a way but thats just me


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## TheBlob (Feb 27, 2014)

OP. On my current cycle I went ahead and went less than everyone reccomended just to be safe, and sure enough everyone was right and I simply upped my dose to 750 test 400 deca (was running 500 test 300 deca) to be honest now ive decided to not only extend my cycle but probably up to a gram test and 600 deca.. Point is this. Next time you buy gear always buy more than you anticipate using. Anything can happen. Girlfriend throws it away, you drop a bottle and it breaks, as in my case cycle goes really well and you extend or up dosage..


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> If I don't run Test higher then Deca or NPP my dick breaks until I up the Test.



Forgot to mention I'm running HCG 500iu/w.

The Doc said combined with prami my libido may be ok.  Maybe if I weren't so sketchy about my source I would consider it but in light of the situation I've found myself in since visiting here... I'll wait til I get bloods to consider spending any more cash.


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## SFGiants (Feb 27, 2014)

Metalhead1 said:


> Sound like a ****ing monster
> 
> I had good results on a gram of test but honestly think i would have got about the same results with less. Felt like a waste in a way but thats just me



It's not a waste I have ran much higher then this.


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

TheBlob said:


> OP. On my current cycle I went ahead and went less than everyone reccomended just to be safe, and sure enough everyone was right and I simply upped my dose to 750 test 400 deca (was running 500 test 300 deca) to be honest now ive decided to not only extend my cycle but probably up to a gram test and 600 deca.. Point is this. Next time you buy gear always buy more than you anticipate using. Anything can happen. Girlfriend throws it away, you drop a bottle and it breaks, as in my case cycle goes really well and you extend or up dosage..



Are you on TRT man?  This is only my second cycle so I'm still learning.  Curious how closely related recovery time and cycle time are.

I can get more no problem. it's all the talk of .com gear being bunk/underdosed makes me hesitant.


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## Bro Bundy (Feb 27, 2014)

i like my sex like u like your cycles...starting and ending with oral


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## Bro Bundy (Feb 27, 2014)

when i ran deca i made sure to run test a good month after ...then with pct time thats plenty of time for the decanoate ester to clear..smart move on hcg..I recovered great from a deca cycle


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## will (Feb 27, 2014)

Agree with guys on upper ur test, a 2:1 ratio is what I like to use as a base on test decca. Dont always get it to that but ur test should always be higher than ur decca.


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## SAD (Feb 27, 2014)

Maybe I missed the part where you were asked if this was your first cycle.

What is your AAS/prohormone experience thus far?

You are 6'2" but under 200lbs.  IMO, you don't need anything but food.  Lot's of food.  I was 6'3" 225 @12%ish bodyfat when I started, and I STILL think I jumped the gun.


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## losieloos (Feb 27, 2014)

That's called around the world I think. Start with anal and end with anal instead.


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

SAD said:


> Maybe I missed the part where you were asked if this was your first cycle.
> 
> What is your AAS/prohormone experience thus far?
> 
> You are 6'2" but under 200lbs.  IMO, you don't need anything but food.  Lot's of food.  I was 6'3" 225 @12%ish bodyfat when I started, and I STILL think I jumped the gun.



Ran test-e at 12 weeks, 500mg/w with a SD kicker.  Started at 195 and got up to 203~ with the four weeks of SD, after that I gained 2-3lbs in the next 8 weeks on just the test.  I'll admit my diet wasn't as good as it is now at this time.  I just ate everything I could get my hands on so it was definitely a diry bulk but I find it hard to believe I was in that big of a caloric deficit.

During week eleven I got some knarley golfer's elbow and tried to work around it for my last week and developed some nice tennis elbow.  This, combined with going into PCT, put me out of the game for almost 4 months.  Got back in the gym because my elbow just was not getting any better at a certain point.  Been working out almost 2 months again and got back to my starting weight, and my elbow has gotten drastically better since returning to the gym.  Still can't full extend my arm to where my bicep loses load but I've been stretching and working on that.

Always been skinny AF.  Was like 165~lbs when I started working out, and also recently discovered that I have hypothyroidism (probably to compensate for the lack of my eating my whole life).  Recently got a diet coach to help me out on a clean bulk and everything is going great.

When I started working out: https://db.tt/P2U7JPfM

Where I got before using AAS: https://db.tt/o9dLk9BX

And that's my life story.

OH and also... I have really small ****ing calves.


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## SAD (Feb 27, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> Ran test-e at 12 weeks, 500mg/w with a SD kicker.  Started at 195 and got up to 203~ with the four weeks of SD, after that I gained 2-3lbs in the next 8 weeks on just the test.  I'll admit my diet wasn't as good as it is now at this time.  I just ate everything I could get my hands on so it was definitely a diry bulk but I find it hard to believe I was in that big of a caloric deficit.
> 
> During week eleven I got some knarley golfer's elbow and tried to work around it for my last week and developed some nice tennis elbow.  This, combined with going into PCT, put me out of the game for almost 4 months.  Got back in the gym because my elbow just was not getting any better at a certain point.  Been working out almost 2 months again and got back to my starting weight, and my elbow has gotten drastically better since returning to the gym.  Still can't full extend my arm to where my bicep loses load but I've been stretching and working on that.
> 
> ...




If that's the case, I'd recommend you take the diet coach's advice, double the calories, force feed until it's not forcing anymore, and then revisit a cycle as if it were your first.  Like 500mg test along with an oral kickstart, and that's it.  I'm not a monster, but I'm 6'3" 280+ and not overly fat, so my opinion is still an opinion, but it's coming from someone who's been there and done that.


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 27, 2014)

SAD said:


> If that's the case, I'd recommend you take the diet coach's advice, double the calories, force feed until it's not forcing anymore, and then revisit a cycle as if it were your first.  Like 500mg test along with an oral kickstart, and that's it.  *I'm not a monster, but I'm 6'3" 280+ and not overly fat*, so my opinion is still an opinion, but it's coming from someone who's been there and done that.



Jesus Christ?  Jay Cutler is like 310 during the off season. 

I've already started my cycle and am sure I'm at least slightly shut down even with HCG.  Being under my genetic potential, it was my understanding that my gains wouldn't be difficult to keep.  Not trying to be that hard headed dick internet kid, but just looking at the pro's and con's of stopping vs finishing, I don't see what would be so bad with finishing.

Again, not trying to be a hard head.  This isn't one of those situations where I'm going to do whatever I want anyways, so you aren't wasting you time.  So please provide me with your reasoning why I should drop and start PCT in 2 weeks (other than not being huge).  That's the reason I'm here, to get my hands on some of the knowledge you guys have gathered from experience.


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## will (Feb 28, 2014)

I wouldnt stop and pct that's just wasting what uve already started. I would change my ratio where ur getting more test than decca and eat like crazy. If u wanna be 250lbs then eat like u weight it now. Good luck


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 28, 2014)

will said:


> I wouldnt stop and pct that's just wasting what uve already started. I would change my ratio where ur getting more test than decca and eat like crazy. If u wanna be 250lbs then eat like u weight it now. Good luck



Right on brotha!  Been getting roughly 2 lbs a week since starting my new diet.

Got a 300 cal bagel, TBSP of pb, 40g whey, and a banana going down the hatch at this very moment!


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## SAD (Feb 28, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> Right on brotha!  Been getting roughly 2 lbs a week since starting my new diet.
> 
> Got a 300 cal bagel, TBSP of pb, 40g whey, and a banana going down the hatch at this very moment!



Fire your diet coach.

A bagel?  40g of whey?  If you're at home, why not eat whole food, instead of a shake?

Dude, you should be eating steak and chicken and whole eggs and sweet potatoes and white potatoes and white rice and veggies and avocados and coconut oil, in massive quantities, 3-4 times per day.  Obviously there are other things you can eat, but stay away from bagels and other breads, and get every gram of protein and carbs and fats from WHOLE FOODS whenever possible.

Sorry for the mini-rant.  I'll respond with more, later.


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 28, 2014)

SAD said:


> Fire your diet coach.
> 
> A bagel?  40g of whey?  If you're at home, why not eat whole food, instead of a shake?
> 
> ...



We got a flamer =P

That is my post workout meal and the only "bad" carbs I have all day.  It is meant to be short and sweet for my "anabolic window" and I also workout in the evening.  Get home from the gym late with another meal to eat before bedtime.  Which is usually either 40g casein, 1.5 cups greek yogurt + 1cup veggies


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 28, 2014)

Example:

Meal 1
- 10 egg whites
- 1.5 cup oats (uncooked)

Meal 2 & 3
- 9oz chicken (weighed raw) 1TBSP Olive Oil
- 1.5 cups brown rice (cooked)
- 1 cup veggies

Meal 4 (pre workout)
same as 2&3 + one apple

Meal 5 (post workout)
1 whole white bagel
1 banana
1 TBSP PB
40g whey

Meal 6
1.5 cups greek yogurt
1 cup veggies


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 28, 2014)

There is no bad carb and your anabolic window after training is approximately 24hrs in length. Your anabolic response to a meal as measure by nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis is even 5-6hrs in length. There's no specific need for short and sweet regarding PWO.

Esit* the PB will make sure that's not short and sweet and will lengthen digestion times bc of the fat. Not that that's a bad thing but...


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 28, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> There is no bad carb and your anabolic window after training is approximately 24hrs in length. Your anabolic response to a meal as measure by nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis is even 5-6hrs in length. There's no specific need for short and sweet regarding PWO.
> 
> Esit* the PB will make sure that's not short and sweet and will lengthen digestion times bc of the fat. Not that that's a bad thing but...



Dunno.  Sure you know who my coach is.  Seems pretty knowledgeable.


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## mistah187 (Feb 28, 2014)

Haha damn it bundy u just beat me to it. Was honna say if she is down with it thats the best way to go


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 28, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> Dunno.  Sure you know who my coach is.  Seems pretty knowledgeable.



I can guess pretty good yea. I never said it what you're doing doesn't work, I simply said it doesn't for the reasons you guys think it does. I'm not against HIS method if it suits you but it's no better than any other 'sensible' approach.


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## Tiny Calves (Feb 28, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> I can guess pretty good yea. I never said it what you're doing doesn't work, I simply said it doesn't for the reasons you guys think it does. I'm not against HIS method if it suits you but it's no better than any other 'sensible' approach.



I assumed it was for the "anabolic window" which I now see is just bro-science =P  But he probably did it because he knows I get in late from the gym with 2 meals left in the day.  Or maybe not.  I'll have to ask him.  Let you know if he gives me a specific!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 28, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> I assumed it was for the "anabolic window" which I now see is just bro-science =P  But he probably did it because he knows I get in late from the gym with 2 meals left in the day.  Or maybe not.  I'll have to ask him.  Let you know if he gives me a specific!





			
				Alan Aragon said:
			
		

> Protein synthesis
> Perhaps the most touted benefit of post-workout nutrient timing is that it potentiates increases in MPS. Resistance training alone has been shown to promote a twofold increase in protein synthesis following exercise, which is counterbalanced by the accelerated rate of proteolysis [36]. It appears that the stimulatory effects of hyperaminoacidemia on muscle protein synthesis, especially from essential amino acids, are potentiated by previous exercise [35,50]. There is some evidence that carbohydrate has an additive effect on enhancing post-exercise muscle protein synthesis when combined with amino acid ingestion [51], but others have failed to find such a benefit [52,53].
> 
> Several studies have investigated whether an “anabolic window” exists in the immediate post-exercise period with respect to protein synthesis. For maximizing MPS, the evidence supports the superiority of post-exercise free amino acids and/or protein (in various permutations with or without carbohydrate) compared to solely carbohydrate or non-caloric placebo [50,51,54-59]. However, despite the common recommendation to consume protein as soon as possible post-exercise [60,61], evidence-based support for this practice is currently lacking. Levenhagen et al. [62] demonstrated a clear benefit to consuming nutrients as soon as possible after exercise as opposed to delaying consumption. Employing a within-subject design,10 volunteers (5 men, 5 women) consumed an oral supplement containing 10 g protein, 8 g carbohydrate and 3 g fat either immediately following or three hours post-exercise. Protein synthesis of the legs and whole body was increased threefold when the supplement was ingested immediately after exercise, as compared to just 12% when consumption was delayed. A limitation of the study was that training involved moderate intensity, long duration aerobic exercise. Thus, the increased fractional synthetic rate was likely due to greater mitochondrial and/or sarcoplasmic protein fractions, as opposed to synthesis of contractile elements [36]. In contrast to the timing effects shown by Levenhagen et al. [62], previous work by Rasmussen et al. [56] showed no significant difference in leg net amino acid balance between 6 g essential amino acids (EAA) co-ingested with 35 g carbohydrate taken 1 hour versus 3 hours post-exercise. Compounding the unreliability of the post-exercise ‘window’ is the finding by Tipton et al. [63] that immediate pre-exercise ingestion of the same EAA-carbohydrate solution resulted in a significantly greater and more sustained MPS response compared to the immediate post-exercise ingestion, although the validity of these findings have been disputed based on flawed methodology [36]. Notably, Fujita et al [64] saw opposite results using a similar design, except the EAA-carbohydrate was ingested 1 hour prior to exercise compared to ingestion immediately pre-exercise in Tipton et al. [63]. Adding yet more incongruity to the evidence, Tipton et al. [65] found no significant difference in net MPS between the ingestion of 20 g whey immediately pre- versus the same solution consumed 1 hour post-exercise. Collectively, the available data lack any consistent indication of an ideal post-exercise timing scheme for maximizing MPS.
> ...


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## SAD (Mar 1, 2014)

Not a flamer, but I do use my mind.  You mentioned a "meal" and then posted up a bagel with PB and some whey protein and a banana.  That's not a meal.  That's a snack, and protein powder is useless and inferior IF you have the time to eat whole food, which you do when you're at home.

And I'll wholeheartedly disagree with Docd about "no bad carb".  Anything that's loaded with gluten and grains is not nearly as good as something that's not.  Pro-inflammatory gluten and grains, regardless of whether or not you have an allergy, are inferior to root carbs, such as sweet potatoes and white potatoes.

Bagels are crap.  Carry on.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 1, 2014)

SAD said:


> Not a flamer, but I do use my mind.  You mentioned a "meal" and then posted up a bagel with PB and some whey protein and a banana.  That's not a meal.  That's a snack, and protein powder is useless and inferior IF you have the time to eat whole food, which you do when you're at home.
> 
> And I'll wholeheartedly disagree with Docd about "no bad carb".  Anything that's loaded with gluten and grains is not nearly as good as something that's not.  Pro-inflammatory gluten and grains, regardless of whether or not you have an allergy, are inferior to root carbs, such as sweet potatoes and white potatoes.
> 
> Bagels are crap.  Carry on.



Inflammation is a necessary bodily response, unless an allergy predisposes you to issues, there is nothing wrong with gluten. While you are worrying about limiting inflammation, I will reap the benefits of increased muscle protein synthesis that a normal/physiologic response to inflammation can provide 



> -Anti inflammatory nation:
> Anti inflammatory drugs are some of the most used in the world.  If something hurts, pop an ibuprofen and get better.    Get injured, sprain a muscle, or sprain an ankle?  Take some NSAIDs, reduce the inflammation, and get better.  The theory is that if we reduce the inflammation, it’ll speed healing.
> 
> The problem with that theory is that the inflammatory response is one of the body’s natural responses to actually increase healing.  Let’s take a look at how that process works and what anti-inflammatories actually do.
> ...



Inferiority is context dependent. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without providing context. 

Considering the most recent studies show that around 1% of the population is suffering from Celiac disease and the gluten-TOLERANT population is in excess of 90%, considering dietary adherence is based a great deal on enjoying foods and not avoiding them, considering grains and glutens contain a vast array of phytonutrients and zoo nutrients that can help optimize health (if not allergic), considering "multiple beneficial effects attributed to the beta-glucan content, and other non-essential components of oats. These benefits range from appetite control (as indicated by increases in peptide Y-Y) to enhanced immune response, and improvements in blood lipid profile and glucose control" for example, and considering you made an absolutist statement which is indefensible as there is more than one instance in which grains may be better than root carbs I believe your statement to not be wholly correct. 

Furthermore, you are looking at single food items in isolation. A case can be made for any food to be bad in this light. WhAts important is to judge the food item in the context of the entire diet. Not illogically state anything with grains is not as good as no grains. 

Sage words:


> All foods in isolation can’t be judged without knowing their proportional contribution to the diet. Even seemingly “bad” foods such as donuts can be perfectly neutral (& even beneficial in a psychological sense) as long as they only comprise a minority of the diet. There’s no compelling research evidence suggesting that a diet whose composition is 80-90% whole & minimally refined foods (with the rest coming from miscellaneous indulgent foods) is not prudent enough to maximize health, particularly in physically active populations. Moderation & not tagging any foods as taboo or off-limits is the best way to sustain good dietary habits in the long-term.



SAD, are you a paleo dieter??


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 1, 2014)

Bagel is 300 easy cals that isn't going to leave me too full to eat again in an hour.  I'm starting to get your username, ya big grump!

DrD I <3 you, good read.  Making an attempt to gather insight on the internet is like sitting by a flowing river of shit.  Every now and then you can see a nugget of knowledge and pick it out, but mostly it's just shit.  You sir always dish out pure gold.  </kissass>


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 1, 2014)

Tiny Calves said:


> Bagel is 300 easy cals that isn't going to leave me too full to eat again in an hour.  I'm starting to get your username, ya big grump!
> 
> DrD I <3 you, good read.  Making an attempt to gather insight on the internet is like sitting by a flowing river of shit.  Every now and then you can see a nugget of knowledge and pick it out, but mostly it's just shit.  You sir always dish out pure gold.  </kissass>



try sweet potato as your long carb ..make them abs pop


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 1, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> try sweet potato as your long carb ..make them abs pop



Yeah I have a range of things I use for carbs that was just an example.

Red/Blue potatoes
Sweet Potatoes, Yams
3 pieces of wheat bread
3oz quinoa weighed dry
kidney/black beans


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## SAD (Mar 1, 2014)

Here we go with Docd's pedantic, didactic diatribes that are supposed to shut people up and make him the ultimate authority.  I thought you would've realized by now that that doesn't work on me.

I'm the last person to take ibuprofen for inflamed joint or muscle pain.  I've had PRP done to my left knee and if you're familiar with the process, the whole idea is to create inflammation and flood the area with platelet rich plasma so that the healing response is magnified.  But that's not the inflammation we're talking about here Doc.  NSAIDs don't touch inflammation caused by grains, excess omega 6s and 9s, and gluten.  Two different worlds that share the word inflammation and that's it.  In fact, Paleo diets recommend not taking NSAIDs for some of the very reasons you listed.  So that whole long quote isn't even relevant.

Now that I got the bulk of your C/P post out of the way, I can address where you actually wrote things yourself.  I stand by my statements wholeheartedly.  Grains are not a good source of carbs.  There are many, better, healthier choices.  I will not make this post unnecessarily long and wordy, and thus I will leave you to google the overwhelming empirical evidence that shows grains are NOT what they've been cracked up to be by the decades of FDA's food-pyramid-based eating recommendations.  Yes, this is a Paleo principle, but I do not follow it because it's Paleo.  I follow it because it is SCIENCE, which you love so much, and because I've tried both ways (and so have tens of thousands of others) and the difference is not only noticeable, but profound.  My father dropped 50 pounds, was able to stop taking his arthritis and diabetes medications, and feels significantly better since he made ONE SINGLE CHANGE.....HE STOPPED EATING GRAINS OF ANY SORT.

That said, I do adhere to a 95/5 rule, meaning if I eat 19 straight meals and don't touch breads or pastas (I don't exclude rice because I respond very well to it), then on my 20th meal I'll pig the fvck out on whatever I want.  And no, I don't actually count meals like that, but that's the gist of it.

You take your nickname way too serious.  You're not a doctor.  You're just a good author that google's the hell outta stuff until you find something that backs you up.  There is simply too much evidence against grains for anyone as smart as you to really believe that pasta and bread is as good (and "better in some cases" you said, smh) as sweet potatoes and other roots.

Still got love for you Doc, but get off your high horse for a little bit and come down here with us regular folks that also know a thing or two and can admit when we're wrong.




Tiny Calves, you have no idea what my nickname comes from.  There's a reason it's in all caps, because it's an acronym.  It stands for Super Angry Dude......wait, was it Sucks A Dick?  Anyway, you'll get used to me.  But don't ever compare what I write to a "flowing river of shit" again.  Best of luck.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 1, 2014)

SAD said:


> Here we go with Docd's pedantic, didactic diatribes that are supposed to shut people up and make him the ultimate authority.  I thought you would've realized by now that that doesn't work on me.
> 
> I'm the last person to take ibuprofen for inflamed joint or muscle pain.  I've had PRP done to my left knee and if you're familiar with the process, the whole idea is to create inflammation and flood the area with platelet rich plasma so that the healing response is magnified.  But that's not the inflammation we're talking about here Doc.  NSAIDs don't touch inflammation caused by grains, excess omega 6s and 9s, and gluten.  Two different worlds that share the word inflammation and that's it.  In fact, Paleo diets recommend not taking NSAIDs for some of the very reasons you listed.  So that whole long quote isn't even relevant.
> 
> ...



Thank you for being an adult through this...


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 1, 2014)

USDA takes money from grain manufacturers. I'll leave the scientific debate up to whomever. But the idea that the majority of our diet should come from grains when throughout history we have had to destroy nature to produce those grains makes no sense to me.


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## SAD (Mar 1, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Thank you for being an adult through this...



?? Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.  I thought it was pretty straightforward and tame, for ME especially.


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## Popeye (Mar 1, 2014)

I didnt read thru all the bickering, so I dont know if its been said, but...

The only problem Ive had with ending a cycle with an oral is that PCT is already tough enough to stay motivated. You will lose some drive and size already...add in being all jacked up from an oral at the end...it will be an even bigger drop of strength and size, and can be rather deflating on your ego.


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 1, 2014)

SAD said:


> Here we go with Docd's pedantic, didactic diatribes that are supposed to shut people up and make him the ultimate authority.  I thought you would've realized by now that that doesn't work on me.
> 
> I'm the last person to take ibuprofen for inflamed joint or muscle pain.  I've had PRP done to my left knee and if you're familiar with the process, the whole idea is to create inflammation and flood the area with platelet rich plasma so that the healing response is magnified.  But that's not the inflammation we're talking about here Doc.  NSAIDs don't touch inflammation caused by grains, excess omega 6s and 9s, and gluten.  Two different worlds that share the word inflammation and that's it.  In fact, Paleo diets recommend not taking NSAIDs for some of the very reasons you listed.  So that whole long quote isn't even relevant.
> 
> ...



That statement really had nothing to do with you personally.  Just the fact that most people on the internet want to point and say "you're wrong, and dumb" without any explanation.  I'm sorry if you feel like you fall into this category.  Was simply stating that I like how DrD takes the time to elaborate on his beliefs... as you just did.  Good post, I'll be looking into this myself.  Thanks for the input.


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## JackC4 (Mar 2, 2014)

TheBlob said:


> Girlfriend throws it away, you drop a bottle and it breaks, as in my case cycle goes really well and you extend or up dosage..



I'll kill that bitch, just sayin'.


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## Metalhead1 (Mar 3, 2014)

I know your coach. I used him on my test/deca cycle and used that exact diet basically. I put on 20lbs and ive been 230 ever since. Good luck in your bulking


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## Tiny Calves (Mar 3, 2014)

Metalhead1 said:


> I know your coach. I used him on my test/deca cycle and used that exact diet basically. I put on 20lbs and ive been 230 ever since. Good luck in your bulking



Boner achieved!


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