# 0 to 500?



## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

I want to squat. And not just squat but heavy. My current max is nothing. Literally. Ok actually its 45. A bar. I've had a lot of knee damage and I gave up on legs completely about....a long time ago. They are weak. Very weak. 

I train at home and don't have leg equipment. I do have a power rack. I tried box squats last week, and while I dont think the pain was too much my legs just don't have strength. I've babied them for years. 

Anyone wanna give me some suggestions? Squat and squat and squat and gradually add weight as I can? Something else?


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## CohibaRobusto (Jan 12, 2021)

Is it something you did before and had to stop because of the injury, or is it your first time getting into doing squats?

Reason I ask is to find out if you know the mechanics / form. I am still kind of learning, and it has helped me to have a trainer critique my form every now and then. Also the people on here give good feedback when people post vids.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 12, 2021)

Start with 5x5 and linear progression. There's nothing magic about it.

Say right now you can 5x5 135. When you hit all your reps add 10lbs to the bar and hit 145 for 5x5. If you move up 10 lbs and can't complete the 5x5 - stay at that weight until you do. And then start bumping 5lbs per jump after your first stall at 10lb jumps. That should keep you going for awhile. Simple shit works. There's no reason you can't ride that wave all the way up to 5x5 at 405. There's no magic bullet. Just takes time.

Even if your starting off only being able to do 5x5 with the bar - this will work.

With your age and injury history there is no reason for you to ever attempt anything heavier then a triple. It's just not worth it.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Is it something you did before and had to stop because of the injury, or is it your first time getting into doing squats?
> 
> Reason I ask is to find out if you know the mechanics / form. I am still kind of learning, and it has helped me to have a trainer critique my form every now and then. Also the people on here give good feedback when people post vids.


I've squatted in the past. Never anything crazy. And never properly. I dont think at least. Today I will need to try to get a good understanding of the mechanics of it. Both my bench and deadlifts took off when I learned the proper setup and the mechanics. I want squats in line too. I need goals and that seems like a healthy one.


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## JackDMegalomaniac (Jan 12, 2021)

I had a bad injury which destroyed my left quad, made me vere off to the left while walking. I could barely squat my own body weight. 

I couldn't even squat the bar, but I just took it gradually building confidence in my knee. I can do 8 reps of 135 now, but it took a long time. 

The most important thing is building up the confidence by starting out lighter. The mind is a hard thing to fight, It will try to stop you. So you have to be confident that you are safe lifting the weight.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Start with 5x5 and linear progression. There's nothing magic about it.
> 
> Say right now you can 5x5 135. When you hit all your reps add 10lbs to the bar and hit 145 for 5x5. If you move up 10 lbs and can't complete the 5x5 - stay at that weight until you do. And then start bumping 5lbs per jump after your first stall at 10lb jumps. That should keep you going for awhile. Simple shit works. There's no reason you can't ride that wave all the way up to 5x5 at 405. There's no magic bullet. Just takes time.
> 
> ...



Thank you for replying. Yeah my age is a bastard and so is my body, knees and shoulders are sensitive. I will absolutely give that a go. What about frequency?


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## BrotherIron (Jan 12, 2021)

You have a power rack and a bar.  You can make a box.  You tried box squats but elaborate on that.

Technique?  Many if not most perform this movement incorrectly. Were you wide stance or narrower (you should be wide), did you rock forward or squat up (you shouldn't rock forward), did you pause on the box and stay tight or touch and go (don't touch and go), what your shin angle vertical or still angled (should be vertical), did you sit back or down (not down).  

Many use to much weight for box squats in the beginning which causes them to bastardize the movement.  If you can only use the bar correctly in the beginning... then use the bar.  Add weight slowly, linear progression that DYS is an easy way to do it.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 12, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> Thank you for replying. Yeah my age is a bastard and so is my body, knees and shoulders are sensitive. I will absolutely give that a go. What about frequency?



Start with once a week. I have my son doing a similar program for football. But he's 13 so he squats 3 days a week. You need to recover and stay in one piece.

If it starts to seem like once a week isn't enough for you to grease the groove, you can add a second day of 3 sets of 5 with a 20% drop in weight from your 5x5 day. This is more like an active recovery day to keep the groove going without killing yourself.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

JackDMegalomaniac said:


> I had a bad injury which destroyed my left quad, made me vere off to the left while walking. I could barely squat my own body weight.
> 
> I couldn't even squat the bar, but I just took it gradually building confidence in my knee. I can do 8 reps of 135 now, but it took a long time.
> 
> The most important thing is building up the confidence by starting out lighter. The mind is a hard thing to fight, It will try to stop you. So you have to be confident that you are safe lifting the weight.



I like to think im at a point where I can make safe decisions. In the past, no. Definitely not. But today I have to be smart because I don't heal like I used to and I have responsibilities. Honestly if I body weight squatted without the bench (box), I wouldn't be able to come back up.


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## Adrenolin (Jan 12, 2021)

I remember when ecks finally got his squat up over his bench years ago.. maybe ask him about the cube method he used. There's a sub-forum for the cube method here as well.

Cube Method


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## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> You have a power rack and a bar.  You can make a box.  You tried box squats but elaborate on that.
> 
> Technique?  Many if not most perform this movement incorrectly. Were you wide stance or narrower (you should be wide), did you rock forward or squat up (you shouldn't rock forward), did you pause on the box and stay tight or touch and go (don't touch and go), what your shin angle vertical or still angled (should be vertical), did you sit back or down (not down).
> 
> Many use to much weight for box squats in the beginning which causes them to bastardize the movement.  If you can only use the bar correctly in the beginning... then use the bar.  Add weight slowly, linear progression that DYS is an easy way to do it.



Tough to elaborate really, I did a couple sets of 5 to get the feel. I dont know stance, shin angle, etc. I didn't touch and go and i didn't sit back. I came down til my ass touched and paused. Then tried to go straight up. It's going to take some playing around to get the actual mechanics down. I have no rush, im happy to start at the very lightest and gradually add. I dont need to get this in the next 6 months. And even if I never see 500 its ok too. But I want something.


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## Adrenolin (Jan 12, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> I like to think im at a point where I can make safe decisions. In the past, no. Definitely not. But today I have to be smart because I don't heal like I used to and I have responsibilities. Honestly if I body weight squatted without the bench (box), I wouldn't be able to come back up.


Utilize some knee wraps to assist your knees until you develop enough muscle strength to squat without them (likely with 50-75lbs less weight)


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## Straight30weight (Jan 12, 2021)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Start with once a week. I have my son doing a similar program for football. But he's 13 so he squats 3 days a week. You need to recover and stay in one piece.
> 
> If it starts to seem like once a week isn't enough for you to grease the groove, you can add a second day of 3 sets of 5 with a 20% drop in weight from your 5x5 day. This is more like an active recovery day to keep the groove going without killing yourself.



Awesome, thank you. I'll start with once and go from there. I'll likely need assistance as I go, but I want to get started.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 12, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> Tough to elaborate really, I did a couple sets of 5 to get the feel. I dont know stance, shin angle, etc. I didn't touch and go and i didn't sit back. I came down til my ass touched and paused. Then tried to go straight up. It's going to take some playing around to get the actual mechanics down. I have no rush, im happy to start at the very lightest and gradually add. I dont need to get this in the next 6 months. And even if I never see 500 its ok too. But I want something.



Here's a nice little vid on box squatting by Max Wenning. He knows his shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACQizQOvLb8


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## Adrenolin (Jan 12, 2021)

Another way to ease your knees into it, would be using bands, but not in the typical way, you can also use bands at the top of a power rack down to the bar, so that the weight is progressively lighter as you go up. It would help pull you out of the hole.


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## JackDMegalomaniac (Jan 12, 2021)

Adrenolin said:


> I remember when ecks finally got his squat up over his bench years ago.. maybe ask him about the cube method he used. There's a sub-forum for the cube method here as well.
> 
> Cube Method


 Im coming off a break from lifting, I think ill try this. It looks real interesting


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## snake (Jan 12, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> Today I will need to try to get a good understanding of the mechanics of it.



My advice will probably clash with everything you will hear and or read but I'll lay it out anyway for a good brother like yourself. 

You don't have to learn to squat; you're born with it. Watch a young child get up and down; no one teaches them how to do it. That said, let's start there with listening to your body and some kinesiology. 

Forget about putting weight on a bar or even a bar for that matter. Stand with your feet apart, now drop down. Move your feet in and out, toes in and out. Found that comfortable position that you see a child squatting down as the play with a toy. Once you have that at the bottom, stand up and keep your feet in the position you just had. Go up and down a few times and make some minor adjustments until it feels right. Now you have your stance. 

Right about now some PLer has puked his protein mass gainer 3000 through his nose but stay with me. This is the most productive way for your body to move; do anything else and you're fighting your body's basic mechanical movements. Now I'm not saying you shouldn't deviate from this because once you add weight to your back, some things change slightly such as leverage and forces applied differently to indualvidual muscle groups. Other factors could change if and when you add equipment. 

Lastly I keep in mind that for every action, there needs to be an equal and opposite reaction with the body to keep the weight somewhat centered. An example starts before you even start the movement. The weight is on the back of your body, therefore you need to lean forward to stabilize the weight. The hips break first (backward) and then the knees and ankles (forward). I Will be the first to admit, I get out over my toes and the weight goes onto the balls of my feet more than most PLers are use to seeing. This does work for me though, maynot for you.

Ultimately you need to find what works for you S30 and hold true to it. The weight will come in time.


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## Uncle manny (Jan 12, 2021)

Fk the 0-500 at the moment and go, squat with pain to squating with minimal- no pain. Like Snake mentioned, you’re gunna have to play with angles that are comfortable ie foot positioning and bar placement. 

Maybe you’d be better suited low bar as you use a lot more hips as opposed to knee. Maybe start off with just goblet squats to build some joint integrity. Learn proper box squat technique etc. Ultimately you’re gunna have to play around and see what’s most comfortable/least painful and slowly try to build that up like you said. 

side note atg squats aren’t necessarily necessary either, so don’t chase depth. You’re a taller guy so if you can get to parallel that’s a win.


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## Jin (Jan 12, 2021)

I remember when you couldn’t deadlift either and then some weeks later you’re pulling 500. Assuming this goes the same route.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 13, 2021)

Jin said:


> I remember when you couldn’t deadlift either and then some weeks later you’re pulling 500. Assuming this goes the same route.



Perhaps. I think it wont be weeks. More like years. But I can pull ok these days, I have gotten to 600 and I won't do it again likely. I have to go to a very interesting place in my head to do so and its not always pleasant.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 13, 2021)

snake said:


> My advice will probably clash with everything you will hear and or read but I'll lay it out anyway for a good brother like yourself.
> 
> You don't have to learn to squat; you're born with it. Watch a young child get up and down; no one teaches them how to do it. That said, let's start there with listening to your body and some kinesiology.
> 
> ...



Excellent info snake. Thanks for taking the time to write it.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 13, 2021)

Uncle manny said:


> Fk the 0-500 at the moment and go, squat with pain to squating with minimal- no pain. Like Snake mentioned, you’re gunna have to play with angles that are comfortable ie foot positioning and bar placement.
> 
> Maybe you’d be better suited low bar as you use a lot more hips as opposed to knee. Maybe start off with just goblet squats to build some joint integrity. Learn proper box squat technique etc. Ultimately you’re gunna have to play around and see what’s most comfortable/least painful and slowly try to build that up like you said.
> 
> side note atg squats aren’t necessarily necessary either, so don’t chase depth. You’re a taller guy so if you can get to parallel that’s a win.



Definitely prefer low bar. I'm much more comfortable that way although it does hurt my wrists.


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## SFGiants (Jan 13, 2021)

Adrenolin said:


> Utilize some knee wraps to assist your knees until you develop enough muscle strength to squat without them (likely with 50-75lbs less weight)



I would do the opposite, develop stabilizing strength 1st.

He needs to build stability 1st, he is only at 135lb.

Once he can walkout and smash 315 for 3 reps consistently then think about wraps.

Wraps can also cause him to buckle and cave in  his knees without stability.

This stuff takes time with no shortcuts.

He will have to do a lot more accessory work just to get the stability. An example, Yes-No's with bands would help since he don't have access to a machine.

Box will help a lot especially starting at a high position, possibly real high.


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## snake (Jan 13, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> Excellent info snake. Thanks for taking the time to write it.



You're welcome, it's what I do. Brothers helping brothers.


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## snake (Jan 13, 2021)

SFGiants said:


> I would do the opposite, develop stabilizing strength 1st.
> 
> He needs to build stability 1st, he is only at 135lb.
> 
> ...



I was trying not to overwhelm the man with a lengthy post so I just made a quick reference to equipment. 

Since SFG opened up the topic, I'll dive in. I'm on board with SFG saying to hold off for now on the knee wraps. He's absolutely right about how they can alter your form as I alluded to in my previous post. In general, if you're squatting below 50% of your max, no wraps regardless of the number of reps. Over 50%, start wrapping. Only exclusion to that rule is if you're competing raw classic. 

Without going on about it, I'll give ya a good example of how the equipment can change the movement. I have more than once seen some big boy who was squatting over 500 put a Z-suit on, load up 500 and without ever training with the suit on, attempt a single. Hips fly up and they fold like a lawn chair. Maybe someone should have listen to the old man in the corner of the gym who whispered, "That's not a good idea"


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## Straight30weight (Jan 13, 2021)

I dont think wraps are a good idea for me,at least not at this point. I own a pair from when I used to squat but my knee has a real problem with going full lock. And im afraid the wraps will make it at least want to. Sleeves probably will become a thing at some point but for the time being there won't be any real weight on my back. I plan to start this evening, ill work it in with my back workout since my knees get hammered during deadlifts anyway. They'll be all warmed up lol.


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## BrotherIron (Jan 13, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> I dont think wraps are a good idea for me,at least not at this point. I own a pair from when I used to squat but my knee has a real problem with going full lock. And im afraid the wraps will make it at least want to. Sleeves probably will become a thing at some point but for the time being there won't be any real weight on my back. I plan to start this evening, ill work it in with my back workout since my knees get hammered during deadlifts anyway. They'll be all warmed up lol.



You don't want to wrap your knees all the time.  That can cause issues in and of itself.  Sleeves... YES, wraps... NO.  

Your knee locks up?  That's a bucket tear of your meniscus.  You're better off with a full than the partial you have now if your knee is in fact locking up.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 13, 2021)

Stay away from wraps. You don't need them, and it's a false sense of security anyways.

Sleeves are ok.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 13, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> You don't want to wrap your knees all the time.  That can cause issues in and of itself.  Sleeves... YES, wraps... NO.
> 
> Your knee locks up?  That's a bucket tear of your meniscus.  You're better off with a full than the partial you have now if your knee is in fact locking up.



My knee does lock up. Not so much lately, but it does. I need a replacement at some point but they have been hesitant because of my age. 

I'm not following what you mean by full/partial?


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## JackDMegalomaniac (Jan 13, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> My knee does lock up. Not so much lately, but it does. I need a replacement at some point but they have been hesitant because of my age.
> 
> I'm not following what you mean by full/partial?


I think the lock up is from inflammation and swelling. I used to get them and it'd feel like bone grinding. If I was walking Id nearly fall on my face. 

Mine got better though after adding some muscle amd giving it time to tighten up


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## Mind2muscle (Jan 14, 2021)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Here's a nice little vid on box squatting by Max Wenning. He knows his shit.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACQizQOvLb8



Form on the squat and box squat is something I struggle with too.  Thanks for posting this vid!  Wish I had a SS bar.


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## BrotherIron (Jan 14, 2021)

Straight30weight said:


> My knee does lock up. Not so much lately, but it does. I need a replacement at some point but they have been hesitant because of my age.
> 
> I'm not following what you mean by full/partial?



I am being a but presumptuous in my assumption but I'd wager it's a tear.  A full tear rather than a partial tear is what I was talking when I said full/ partial.  If it is in fact a bucket tear of the meniscus (a common tear that causes what you are talking about) then you would be better off having it rupture completely than stay partially torn if you're not going to have it fixed.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 14, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> I am being a but presumptuous in my assumption but I'd wager it's a tear.  A full tear rather than a partial tear is what I was talking when I said full/ partial.  If it is in fact a bucket tear of the meniscus (a common tear that causes what you are talking about) then you would be better off having it rupture completely than stay partially torn if you're not going to have it fixed.



I've had it repaired 3 times. First injury was in 09. Theres very little left to repair. I think my last surgery was 3 or 4 years ago. I need another but im over it. They never make it better.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 14, 2021)

Little update. Took DYS advice and did 5x5. Warmed up with the bar (a lot) then went 65, 95, and finished at 135. All of them went just fine with minimal pain. Lots of popping and cracking but not a ton of pain. I took each rep slow and paid a lot of attention to how I was doing it. I'm now sure there's more in there than just the 135 but I'm easing into it. It felt pretty ok....


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## BrotherIron (Jan 14, 2021)

Even with light weights, wearing a sleeve isn't a bad idea.  You'll get a little compression and support to the joint without restricting your ROM.


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## Mind2muscle (Jan 14, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> Even with light weights, wearing a sleeve isn't a bad idea.  You'll get a little compression and support to the joint without restricting your ROM.



Agreed.  I’m no heavy squatter but the compression definitely helps support my chicken legs!


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