# A Primer for those considering HRT



## Cashout

This is not a specific protocol recommendation but more a 'HRT Theory' that I developed over the 3 years I was on HRT and 25 years of AAS study.

1) Use the least amount of pharmaceutics you can to elicit the most significant effect. Why? Because you are going to be taking these drugs for the rest of your life and you want to limit the overall potential for "long-term" side effects.By using less drugs, you will have a better chance of avoiding long term usage effects.

2) Most guys start with too much test! The goal of HRT should be to push you to a comfortable high level of test - approximating what your body would otherwise manufacture if you were 100% HPTA functional. I've seen protocol with guys starting at 300+ mgs of test a week. In my years of HRT and AAS usage and study, that is just way too much. In fact, it is a light cycle for 95% of the guys out there. If you are testing consistently above 1500 ng/dl, you are using too much test. 

When you start with too much test, you wind up having to use more support drugs to control the issues associated with too much test - read Adex. So, start your protocol with 100 mg split up over 2 injections every 84 hours (50 per shot) and get tested every 4 weeks so you can adjust upward. Adjusting 1 drug upward is a lot easier than trying to fine tune multiple drugs.

3) Inject more frequently with smaller amounts. The long ester test that is used by most is positioned IM and is released from the depot over time. HOWEVER, this release IS NOT LINEAR. It occurs in an elongated sinusoid pattern. I've done the computed area of the integral for myself using 5 days worth of consecutive blood draws and as I mention, 84 hours an injection schedule works really well for test cyp in terms of blood level stability with minimal highs and lows. More frequent injections really don't improve the distribution of highs and lows very significantly. What I found by doing this was that for me personally, if I had around 30 mgs of active drug in my blood daily, I did not aromatize to any marked extent and I didn't need to us an AI at all during my protocol. Above 30 mgs of active drug a day in the systems and I kick into significant aromatization and had to use an AI. Now, with 30 mgs of active test in my system, I was able to maintain a total test level between 1100 - 1500 ng/dl. So there is another reason to work to keep you test levels under 1500, it limits your need for other drugs, my Crit number never budged above 48.8% and my BP never moved out of the 120/60 range. Again, see point 2 above.

4) Depending on your goals, HCG is not a requirement for HRT. In men, HCG is a messy messy drug. I could write a dissertation on this from what I've learned over 25 years with and personally tested. Simply, if you are not concerned about having kids in the future, you may want to consider foregoing HCG although. Maintaining a sperm count is all it is really good for.


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## DF

Very nice information Cashout.  I plan on giving this a go shortly.


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## AndroSport

Good info broseph!


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## curls

Great post I will give this a try.  Now all we need to do is have a Cashout post his diet.


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## LeanHerm

Great post cash.


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## Cashout

curls said:


> Great post I will give this a try.  Now all we need to do is have a Cashout post his diet.



Gladly...I'll put it up in this section as a new thread and the mods are welcome to relocate it to the 'Diet' forum if they deem it a better fit there.


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## Zeek

Perfect right here where it is at IMO.  Also good enough for sticky status!  TY Cashout!


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## Lulu66

Great post cash. Thanks. You should make a post on the whole hcg thing. It wod be interesting.


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## Pikiki

Lulu66 said:


> Great post cash. Thanks. You should make a post on the whole hcg thing. It wod be interesting.



X2 Cash will love to have your thoughs on this and experience about HCG,  will be very helpfull for everyone.


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## sfstud33

Very good info. I was on TRT for two years with a HMO and my doc would give me 400mg in one shot each month. Needless to say id feel awesome first week!! He'd only order bloodwork twice a year and they insisted on doing the shots. If they would have given me a script i'd have divided the dose up for a more consistent administration. I had never thought of anything more frequently than weekly -this is def good info.


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## Bullseye Forever

as always brother excellent post and knowledge


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## Shane1974

Cashout said:


> This is not a specific protocol recommendation but more a 'HRT Theory' that I developed over the 3 years I was on HRT and 25 years of AAS study.
> 
> 1) Use the least amount of pharmaceutics you can to elicit the most significant effect. Why? Because you are going to be taking these drugs for the rest of your life and you want to limit the overall potential for "long-term" side effects.By using less drugs, you will have a better chance of avoiding long term usage effects.
> 
> 2) Most guys start with too much test! The goal of HRT should be to push you to a comfortable high level of test - approximating what your body would otherwise manufacture if you were 100% HPTA functional. I've seen protocol with guys starting at 300+ mgs of test a week. In my years of HRT and AAS usage and study, that is just way too much. In fact, it is a light cycle for 95% of the guys out there. If you are testing consistently above 1500 ng/dl, you are using too much test.
> 
> When you start with too much test, you wind up having to use more support drugs to control the issues associated with too much test - read Adex. So, start your protocol with 100 mg split up over 2 injections every 84 hours (50 per shot) and get tested every 4 weeks so you can adjust upward. Adjusting 1 drug upward is a lot easier than trying to fine tune multiple drugs.
> 
> 3) Inject more frequently with smaller amounts. The long ester test that is used by most is positioned IM and is released from the depot over time. HOWEVER, this release IS NOT LINEAR. It occurs in an elongated sinusoid pattern. I've done the computed area of the integral for myself using 5 days worth of consecutive blood draws and as I mention, 84 hours an injection schedule works really well for test cyp in terms of blood level stability with minimal highs and lows. More frequent injections really don't improve the distribution of highs and lows very significantly. What I found by doing this was that for me personally, if I had around 30 mgs of active drug in my blood daily, I did not aromatize to any marked extent and I didn't need to us an AI at all during my protocol. Above 30 mgs of active drug a day in the systems and I kick into significant aromatization and had to use an AI. Now, with 30 mgs of active test in my system, I was able to maintain a total test level between 1100 - 1500 ng/dl. So there is another reason to work to keep you test levels under 1500, it limits your need for other drugs, my Crit number never budged above 48.8% and my BP never moved out of the 120/60 range. Again, see point 2 above.
> 
> 4) Depending on your goals, HCG is not a requirement for HRT. In men, HCG is a messy messy drug. I could write a dissertation on this from what I've learned over 25 years with and personally tested. Simply, if you are not concerned about having kids in the future, you may want to consider foregoing HCG although. Maintaining a sperm count is all it is really good for.


 I wish I could stick a flash drive in Cash's ear and download everything he knows.


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## Adrian2401

Pikiki said:


> X2 Cash will love to have your thoughs on this and experience about HCG,  will be very helpfull for everyone.



Ditto on HCG info


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## Curiosity

Lulu66 said:


> Great post cash. Thanks. You should make a post on the whole hcg thing. It wod be interesting.



Yes Cash, please post your thoughts on proper HCG usage, both for TRT and for cycling! I'd really appreciate it!


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## Cashout

Sorry I haven't done this yet - at my beach house again for a month or so and that means I'm not online much...


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## Illtemper

Cash I missed reading your very knowledgeable posts on the ology.....   Im glad i found everyone again!


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## BigFella

Cashout said:


> Sorry I haven't done this yet - at my beach house again for a month or so and that means I'm not online much...


Feel so sorry for you.


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## R1rider

its a late post, but i just read this thread. very nice information Cashout, thank you

i may be going to Australia or Canada for grad school. So i want to be able to use AAS legally( at least test). I started my first cycle at 25 and after 4 years of blasting and crusing, im sure i will need TRT/HRT now @ 29 

what would be the best way to go about getting it?


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## TR90125

I started with too much test and felt like shit.

Regarding HCG, I am already taking a very low dose of Adex and I bet if I bailed on the HCG I could survive without taking any AI's at all.

Is there any way to know for a given protocol that inlcudes Test and HCG how much the HCG contributes to your test level?  In other words, if you quit taking HCG how much would test need to be increased to offset what HCG does if any?


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## Cashout

The HCG actually contributes nothing to the natural production when using exogenous test. 

I've proven that to myself over and over with blood work. 

What it does help with is spermogensis.



TR90125 said:


> I started with too much test and felt like shit.
> 
> Regarding HCG, I am already taking a very low dose of Adex and I bet if I bailed on the HCG I could survive without taking any AI's at all.
> 
> Is there any way to know for a given protocol that inlcudes Test and HCG how much the HCG contributes to your test level?  In other words, if you quit taking HCG how much would test need to be increased to offset what HCG does if any?


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## transcend2007

Hey Cash, what would be the point on using HCG while on trt if not to keep natural testosterone system working.  I am pretty sure that was the reason I was prescribed it to begin with.  To be honest it makes me breakout more than just external test alone.  At 46 I have no intention of having more children and would just as soon stop taking it (especial if it does not produce or keep natural test production rolling).


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## Cashout

If you are not concerned about spermogensis then there is no real reason to use HCG while on TRT. HCG will support spermogensis and as a result limit testicular atrophy. For guys that are not concerned about fathering children and can deal with the cosmetic effect of a reduction in testicular size, there is no need for HCG. 

HCG usage will not contribute to the production of natural test while on TRT assuming that the TRT is sufficent to produce levels in the blood consistant with the body's normal test range. The HPTA has BOTH positive and negative feedback loops built in that govern the production of substrates in the system. In short, the LH-like effect of HCG on the testes is not the only factor that is responsible for test production. The system itself is like a set of interconnected gears and when one turns they all must turn to stimulate production. Additionally, the system is governed by a set of ratios that are relatively finite in their allowable deviations.

Because of the interrelated nature of the HPTA's parts and the positive and negative feedbacks, the the system will detect multiple cues prior to allowing stimulation. So, it is not just a testes issue, it is a system-wide response that is need and the very presence of exogenous test will be the limiting factor as it will be picked up at several points in the system.





transcend2007 said:


> Hey Cash, what would be the point on using HCG while on trt if not to keep natural testosterone system working.  I am pretty sure that was the reason I was prescribed it to begin with.  To be honest it makes me breakout more than just external test alone.  At 46 I have no intention of having more children and would just as soon stop taking it (especial if it does not produce or keep natural test production rolling).


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## BigTruck

So glad I read this post cash! Will be reading more of your posts for sure!!


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## hogs4us2

Cashout

I'm new to the site and new to the whole bodybuilding thing. I'm 46 years old and have gotten into weightlifting and traning. I'm going on HRT newxt week my test was 297 and I was woundering if you would give me some help or insight.

I'm not looking to have children nmine are all grown.

Thanks!


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## Cashout

There are plenty of good resources around this place so post up an questions you have - these guys are sharp and they'll steer you through the rough waters...



hogs4us said:


> Cashout
> 
> I'm new to the site and new to the whole bodybuilding thing. I'm 46 years old and have gotten into weightlifting and traning. I'm going on HRT newxt week my test was 297 and I was woundering if you would give me some help or insight.
> 
> I'm not looking to have children nmine are all grown.
> 
> Thanks!


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## hogs4us2

Cashout,

I've post already on another one of your threads, but thought I would post again. I'm new to the site and relatively new to weight lifting. I'm a 46 year old male who is in great health, never smoked, drink or drugs, no health issues past or present excellent heart rate and blood pressure.

I'm going to start HRT in a week or so my Test scores were 297, just did a CBC and physical. I’ve never lifted weights but would like to bulk up some (more define then bulk) but look good. 
Can you give me some feed back? The reason I'm asking you is that it seems like a lot of the other long term posters on here value and admire your knowledge  of the industry.

Thanks in advance!


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## Cashout

Sure start a thread here in the HRT forum and post your *specific questions* there. Otherwise, I don't know what you are asking me for feedback regarding from just reading this post.



hogs4us said:


> Cashout,
> 
> I've post already on another one of your threads, but thought I would post again. I'm new to the site and relatively new to weight lifting. I'm a 46 year old male who is in great health, never smoked, drink or drugs, no health issues past or present excellent heart rate and blood pressure.
> 
> I'm going to start HRT in a week or so my Test scores were 297, just did a CBC and physical. I’ve never lifted weights but would like to bulk up some (more define then bulk) but look good.
> *Can you give me some feed back?* The reason I'm asking you is that it seems like a lot of the other long term posters on here value and admire your knowledge  of the industry.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


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## hogs4us2

Cashout, 

Have a question; I'm starting HRT as you suggested 50ml injections twice a week. My question is if you have a history with acne in the past are you more prong to have an issue with it during HRT, and if so should I start treatment before I see it appearing?

Thanks in advance for your help!.


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## PFM

hogs4us2 said:


> Cashout,
> 
> Have a question; I'm starting HRT as you suggested 50ml injections twice a week. My question is if you have a history with acne in the past are you more prong to have an issue with it during HRT, and if so should I start treatment before I see it appearing?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!.



50 MG's not 50 ml's


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## AndroSport

PFM said:


> 50 MG's not 50 ml's



Lol

Hi, my name is Andro & my TRT regimen is injecting 1 jug 2x per week.

That would sure cause some acne and other stuff going on.


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## brown1106

I battled acne all my adolescent life and I started test a while back and yes the acne came back. I so far, have been able to keep it off my face but my chest and back are bad. I just keep my shirt on and keep keeping on. The trade off to how I feel is worth it. Try the clearasil wipes a couple times a day and shower after workouts. It will still be there but you can limit it with a little effort.


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## Cashout

hogs4us2 said:


> Cashout,
> 
> Have a question; I'm starting HRT as you suggested 50ml injections twice a week. My question is if you have a history with acne in the past are you more prong to have an issue with it during HRT, and if so should I start treatment before I see it appearing?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!.



Most likely the answer will be yes you will be more prone to see a reemergence - IF - your acne in the past was a result of androgen-induced stimulation of the oil glands. These glands, like other tissue, poses androgen receptors and DHT has a notable affinity for these receptors. So, if your past issues where related to androgen stimulation of the glands then it is likely you may have some issues since there is certainly a strong prospect that your body reduces testosterone to DHT actively.


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## hogs4us2

Cashout,

Thanks so much for the reply. Do you have any kind of recommendation as far as what I might due to minimize the chance for acne to return or is it more of a wait and see thin?


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## Cashout

I'd wait and see first. I have seen great success with guys running testosterone who wind up with acne when they use a topical 1% clindamycin solution after a 5% benzyl peroxide foam wash.


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## hogs4us2

Cashout, or anyone else……

Well I'm about to start my HRT, supplies arrived today.....Cashout do you have any suggestions concerning my protocol as outlined below?


1) I am a 46-year-old white male 6'1 220 pounds (about 35 pounds overweight) never smoked, drank or did any kind of drugs.
a)	I work out five days a week, about an hour a day…… I got blood work done and I'll post it below and as you'll see my Total Testosterone came back, at 252 out of a reference range of 241 – 827.

b)	So I contacted HRT on demand and talked with Mike and they are recommending the following.

•	2 test CYP
•	1 5000IU
•	20 0.5mg anastrzole
•	1 MIC B-Complex…………………………………And all of the needles necessary for the dosage.

2) I intend on using this as follows, based upon the advice I read from a post on here from cashout.

a)	Start with a small amount (no more than 50 mgs per injection for starters) of test injected 2 times per week – every 84 hours ……

b)	Get  tested every 4 weeks so I can adjust accordingly

c)	 Only add an AI if necessary - i.e. estrogen levels are elevated on blood tests

d)	Not concerned about having kids in the future, I’m skipping the HCG ….I did order some to have on hand if I should need it


Any input or suggestions our greatly appreciated!!!!!!

Test Name	Results	Units	Reference Ranges

Testosterone Total	252	ng/dL	241 – 827

Testosterone Free	0.95	ng/dL	0.95 – 4.30
Estradiol	13.7	pg/mL	10 – 42

Estrone	11.8	pg/mL	9 – 36

Estrogens total	25.5	pg/mL	19 – 69

PSA Screening	0.74	ng/mL	0.00 – 4.00

WBC	7.4	K/uL	3.8 – 10.8

RBC	5.11	M/uL	4.200 – 5180

Hemoglobin	14.5	g/dL	13.2 – 17.1

Hematocrit	43.4	%	38.5 – 50.0

MCV	84.9	fL	80.0 – 100.0

MCH	28.4	pg	27.0 – 33.0

MCHC	33.4	g/dL	32.0 – 36.0

RDW	14.4	%	11.0 – 15.0

Platelet count	320	K/uL	140 – 400

Neutrophils  #	4.09	K/uL	1.50 – 7.80

Neutrophils  %	55.3	%	17.0 – 80.0

Lymphocytes    #	2.53	K/uL	0.85 – 3.90

Lymphocytes    %	34.2	%	7.0 – 40.0

Monocytes   #	0.48	K/uL	0.20 – 0.95

Monocytes   %	6.5	%	1.5 – 11.0

Eosinophils  #	0.25	K/uL	0.02 – 0.50

Eosinophils  %	3.4	%	0.5 – 4.0

Basophilis %	0.5	%	0.0 – 20


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## hogs4us2

I just got my "CMP TEST CYP" and I want to inject “50 Mg” twice a week or every 84 hours.......My needle measurements are in "ML" how do I convert that to "Mg"?


 My label says to inject 1 ML, twice a week......But I'm wondering how many "Mg" would that be. I'm following a protocol of 50 mg, twice a week.

 Label says CMP TEST CYP (10ML) 210 MG INJ.


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## whitelml

A 1/4 of a ml will equal 52.5mg


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## hogs4us2

Thanks Whitelml!


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## Live2Train

Cashout, I just read this for the first time and I'm going to give your 50 mg every 84 hour protocol a shot.  Honestly, I've been telling my wife that's what I want to start doing, but your post confirmed that it's in fact what I'm going to start this week.  I was doing 1 shot of 100 mg per week per docs orders, but it has caused swollen and sore nips.  I'm very sensitive to E2 and get it every cycle, but I can't stand to have this for the rest of the time I'm on TRT especially seeing how it could be the rest of my life.  Hopefully this makes all the difference as it did for you.  I'm with you in the fact that people use far too much AAS.  I feel that they should use as little as they can as long as they are seeing results.  Too much of a good thing is just that.  Everyone always thinks more is better and don't realize it wasn't until it's too late.  Anyhow, thanks for this post bro.  I'm sick of taking Adex EOD and Nolva ED to get this issue in check.


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## Cashout

You are very welcome and I hope the suggestions prove useful to you. I have had issues with E in my career as well so I know it can be a tedious task of finding the balance.

I think you will notice a difference by breaking it up but it will take several months to get the full effect of the process due to the overlapping effect of the half life of long esters. So, give it at least 3 months to get down to your new normal. 

I would suggest you hold your AI constant until you get a new equilibrium with the test. Then slowly reduce your AI over 4 weeks by cutting the dosage in half for each day you take it one day per week. That way you'll be less likely to see any kind of spike.



Live2Train said:


> Cashout, I just read this for the first time and I'm going to give your 50 mg every 84 hour protocol a shot.  Honestly, I've been telling my wife that's what I want to start doing, but your post confirmed that it's in fact what I'm going to start this week.  I was doing 1 shot of 100 mg per week per docs orders, but it has caused swollen and sore nips.  I'm very sensitive to E2 and get it every cycle, but I can't stand to have this for the rest of the time I'm on TRT especially seeing how it could be the rest of my life.  Hopefully this makes all the difference as it did for you.  I'm with you in the fact that people use far too much AAS.  I feel that they should use as little as they can as long as they are seeing results.  Too much of a good thing is just that.  Everyone always thinks more is better and don't realize it wasn't until it's too late.  Anyhow, thanks for this post bro.  I'm sick of taking Adex EOD and Nolva ED to get this issue in check.


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## vorcellian

Live2Train said:


> Cashout, I just read this for the first time and I'm going to give your 50 mg every 84 hour protocol a shot.  Honestly, I've been telling my wife that's what I want to start doing, but your post confirmed that it's in fact what I'm going to start this week.  I was doing 1 shot of 100 mg per week per docs orders, but it has caused swollen and sore nips.  I'm very sensitive to E2 and get it every cycle, but I can't stand to have this for the rest of the time I'm on TRT especially seeing how it could be the rest of my life.  Hopefully this makes all the difference as it did for you.  I'm with you in the fact that people use far too much AAS.  I feel that they should use as little as they can as long as they are seeing results.  Too much of a good thing is just that.  Everyone always thinks more is better and don't realize it wasn't until it's too late.  Anyhow, thanks for this post bro.  I'm sick of taking Adex EOD and Nolva ED to get this issue in check.



You were taking ADEX eod at 100mgT/wk?  Crazy.  Was it .25mg or .5mg eod?  What were your E levels with that protocol?


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## mrgeeky

Hi Cashout, can I ask what your thoughts are on two forms of trt.. Reandron 1000 which Im thinking of going on.. Injected once every 10 weeks give or take.. 
And 40mg of Andriol Testocaps which I have been on for the last few years.. 

Any thoughts please?


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## mrgeeky

To any one reading this thread, I absolutely love cashout's post, but  I think he is missing something.. Like most he talks about injecting, (cypionate) ? twice a week? 
Better options are available now.
With the oral testosterone (andriol testo caps 40 mg) you get no pituitary gland shut down and for those who hate injecting it makes life easier.. Pop a couple of pills a day and your done..  They work like a dream as I have been on them for years and no need for any other meds with them.

The other option I have heard a lot of good things about is reandron 1000 which you inject once every 7 to 12 weeks dependant on the individual taking them.. 

So another couple of options for you guys.. You don't have to be stuck with injecting twice a week.


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## DocDePanda187123

mrgeeky said:


> To any one reading this thread, I absolutely love cashout's post, but  I think he is missing something.. Like most he talks about injecting, (cypionate) ? twice a week?
> Better options are available now.
> With the oral testosterone (andriol testo caps 40 mg) you get no pituitary gland shut down and for those who hate injecting it makes life easier.. Pop a couple of pills a day and your done..  They work like a dream as I have been on them for years and no need for any other meds with them.
> 
> The other option I have heard a lot of good things about is reandron 1000 which you inject once every 7 to 12 weeks dependant on the individual taking them..
> 
> So another couple of options for you guys.. You don't have to be stuck with injecting twice a week.



Pituitary shutdown is secondary to hypothalamic shutdown. The lack of GNrH from the hypothalamus to the pituitary is what causes it to stop producing LH and FSH. This is NOT avoidable simply by using andriol testocaps. You will still be shutdown using them at relevant doses. They also may still require the use of an AI but that depends in the individual. I certainly wouldn't call them a better option.


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## Iron1

Docd187123 said:


> Pituitary shutdown is secondary to hypothalamic shutdown. The lack of GNrH from the hypothalamus to the pituitary is what causes it to stop producing LH and FSH. This is NOT avoidable simply by using andriol testocaps. You will still be shutdown using them at relevant doses. They also may still require the use of an AI but that depends in the individual. I certainly wouldn't call them a better option.


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## mrgeeky

Hi Doc, then can you explain why on testocaps, I have absolutey no nut shrinkage? Still shoot a good load.  When I was on injecatables, instant nut shrinkage.. 
Infact I read an article that stated the reason for this was your pituitary gland wasn't shut down on orals..  Will see if I can dig it up again for you..


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## DocDePanda187123

mrgeeky said:


> Hi Doc, then can you explain why on testocaps, I have absolutey no nut shrinkage? Still shoot a good load.  When I was on injecatables, instant nut shrinkage..
> Infact I read an article that stated the reason for this was your pituitary gland wasn't shut down on orals..  Will see if I can dig it up again for you..



We know all exogenous steroids will suppress natural production. That is a basic truth of every available anabolic androgenic. Teaticular atrophy is a side effect of suppression. Some ppl never experience the atrophy while others expereince it to a large degree. That's one reason and the other is bc absorption of oral testosterone like andriol is much lower than injectable preparations. If you took 100mg of each, the injectable test would be much more readily absorbed so at similar doses you'd potentially expereince increased testicular atrophy. Andriol boosts test levels which will also increase aromatization which by itself would further limit natural testoaterone production. Your pituitary is not shutdown directly. It's a downstream effect bc when taking exogenous test like andriol it will ultimately inhibit the hypothalamus from producing GNrH which acts upon the pituitary. So pituitary shutdown is secondary to the hypothalamus. 

If you've got the article please post it. I'd love to see it. And please don't let it be an article written by Joe Schmoe who has a column for Flex magazine or something. A published and peer reviewed study would be nice or something from Merck themselves.


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## mrgeeky

hmm, looked and looked, cant find the article.. mind you it was a few years ago.. wish I had of saved it now.. Oh well.. 
Cant seem to find any other info on it either so perhaps I must concede to your posts.. Im not silly enough to try to debate with some one who is obviously more knowledgeable than I lol... cheers Doc.


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## DocDePanda187123

mrgeeky said:


> hmm, looked and looked, cant find the article.. mind you it was a few years ago.. wish I had of saved it now.. Oh well..
> Cant seem to find any other info on it either so perhaps I must concede to your posts.. Im not silly enough to try to debate with some one who is obviously more knowledgeable than I lol... cheers Doc.



Don't make an appeal to authority brother. I've been wrong in the past and will continue to be in the future. No one is right 100% of the time. The forum is to discuss things so don't hesitate to do just that.


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## mrgeeky

interesting read.. not scientific but well, good read none the less.. Funny everything I read leans towards testocaps not being efficient yet Im making reasonable gains and feel great on them..  Even on one a day...  Going to be interesting to see the dif once I go on to injectables again.

http://www.anabolic-supplement.com/product_info.php?products_id=234


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## fourtotheflush

anyone hear anything about Testopel Implants?


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## mickems

Thanks for this post CASHOUT. I have been considering trt lately (I am fairly new to bb but older in yrs) and this was a very helpful read.


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## mrgeeky

Docd187123 said:


> We know all exogenous steroids will suppress natural production. That is a basic truth of every available anabolic androgenic. Teaticular atrophy is a side effect of suppression. Some ppl never experience the atrophy while others expereince it to a large degree. That's one reason and the other is bc absorption of oral testosterone like andriol is much lower than injectable preparations. If you took 100mg of each, the injectable test would be much more readily absorbed so at similar doses you'd potentially expereince increased testicular atrophy. Andriol boosts test levels which will also increase aromatization which by itself would further limit natural testoaterone production. Your pituitary is not shutdown directly. It's a downstream effect bc when taking exogenous test like andriol it will ultimately inhibit the hypothalamus from producing GNrH which acts upon the pituitary. So pituitary shutdown is secondary to the hypothalamus.
> 
> If you've got the article please post it. I'd love to see it. And please don't let it be an article written by Joe Schmoe who has a column for Flex magazine or something. A published and peer reviewed study would be nice or something from Merck themselves.



You might learn something new today..
Taking of andriol does not shut down the pituitary gland. 

I have been on andriol for about 3 years with no nut shrinkage.. 
I went on sustanon 250 inject during that time and nuts immediately shrivled.
Didn't like sustanon and went back on Andriol.. Nuts swelled back to normal size..
I was taking very high doses of Andriol..  7 x 40mg caps.. At no stage did I have nut shrinkage..



 Decided to drop the dosage down to recommended dosage of 2 x 40mg caps per day.. 
After a year give or take on this regime I went to an endocrinologist to get his thoughts on what I was doing. 
He told me to stop taking it.. 

I refused on the basis I didn't want to experience the down time, depression etc that comes of having no test in my system.. 

He ran blood tests which showed my pituitary gland was still functiong.. Good levels of FSH and LH. 

So I stopped cold turkey..  Didn't even notice the difference... 

So taking Andriol caps do not shut down the pituitary gland.


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## DocDePanda187123

mrgeeky said:


> You might learn something new today..
> Taking of andriol does not shut down the pituitary gland.
> 
> I have been on andriol for about 3 years with no nut shrinkage..
> I went on sustanon 250 inject during that time and nuts immediately shrivled.
> Didn't like sustanon and went back on Andriol.. Nuts swelled back to normal size..
> I was taking very high doses of Andriol..  7 x 40mg caps.. At no stage did I have nut shrinkage..
> 
> 
> 
> Decided to drop the dosage down to recommended dosage of 2 x 40mg caps per day..
> After a year give or take on this regime I went to an endocrinologist to get his thoughts on what I was doing.
> He told me to stop taking it..
> 
> I refused on the basis I didn't want to experience the down time, depression etc that comes of having no test in my system..
> 
> He ran blood tests which showed my pituitary gland was still functiong.. Good levels of FSH and LH.
> 
> So I stopped cold turkey..  Didn't even notice the difference...
> 
> So taking Andriol caps do not shut down the pituitary gland.



You might learn something new today.....

You have not proved anything just made simple and unquantifiable observations and claims. 

Not everybody experiences testicular atrophy even on blasts. Testicular atrophy is a poor measure of pituitary function as even on a gram of test my nuts remained the same size while blood tests showed LH and FSH to be tanked. According to you this would mean I wasnt shutdown which is preposterous since blood tests confirmed I in fact was. 

You took 7-40mg caps a day which is 280mg total. Consider the bioavailability of andriol is about 7% meaning that much of your 280mg was actual absorbed and could act on site specific locations or become active in target tissue. 



			
				William Llewellyn; Anabolics 10th Ed. said:
			
		

> “The actual oral bioavailability of Andriol is estimated to be approximately 7%.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.






> “A more common effective dosage, however, would fall in the range of 400-480 mg (10 to 12 capsules) per day. These doses can be quite costly given the relative price of Andriol preparations, making injectable testosterones much more cost effective and popular. Given the relative low potency of Andriol, when taken by athletes it is most commonly used in combination with other agents.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.





> “Andriol Testocaps supplies 40 mg of testosterone undecanoate in castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate, contained in small soft gelatin capsules. Packaging is commonly as bottles of 30 or 60 capsules, or foil/plastic strips of 10 capsules. Subtracting the ester weight, each 40 mg Andriol capsule contains 25.3mg of (base) testosterone.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.



When all is said and done you were on less than a TRT dose of hormones when factoring in bioavailability at the 2caps a day period and it's no wonder your pituitary wasn't fully shut down, but you can bet it was certainly suppressed to some degree. Had you taken enough to constitute a real blast there's no question you would be shutdown. 

So taking andriol will suppress the pituitary gland just like all other forms of exogenous anabolic/androgenic hormones and if taken in large enough amounts will shutdown the pituitary. 

Ps. You still haven't linked any study or scientific article backing your claim, you link and article from anabolic-supplement.com which we all know is a credible source of information , you did not provide a copy of the bloodwork you claimed to have, you took a TRT dose and a dose much less than TRT levels and claimed you made reasonable gains off that which could be true bc you were hypogonadal or a novice but can't be expected to have the same results in advanced lifters or those who are eugonadal, and you had claimed that no orals can shutdown pituitary function which is ridiculous at best. I don't know where your info is coming from but I wouldn't put any stock in your sources.


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## Godfather2112

Very interesting info! Thanks bro


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## Utm18

Old thread but good read.


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## Logger

That's a great post!  Very different from what I've seen in years past and seems safer.


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## Beezy

Thank you!


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## Tren4Life

Cashout was a smart fukker. I wish he was still around.


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## Jamz

Agreed! This is still a great post. Some fantastic info in here. Where's our #BringBackCashout hashtag? ;P Anyways, great stuff. Especially for someone currently on the fence about how I'm going to tackle this. As for my own contribution, there isn't _too _much that hasn't been said already. I've been reading up on the odd post here and there. This one on trt sticks out as not being too bad. Covers some stuff I hadn't considered yet. But yeah, where's Cashout when you need him. Can't like this post enough.


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## Killlller

DocDePanda187123 said:


> We know all exogenous steroids will suppress natural production. That is a basic truth of every available anabolic androgenic. Teaticular atrophy is a side effect of suppression. Some ppl never experience the atrophy while others expereince it to a large degree. That's one reason and the other is bc absorption of oral testosterone like andriol is much lower than injectable preparations. If you took 100mg of each, the injectable test would be much more readily absorbed so at similar doses you'd potentially expereince increased testicular atrophy. Andriol boosts test levels which will also increase aromatization which by itself would further limit natural testoaterone production. Your pituitary is not shutdown directly. It's a downstream effect bc when taking exogenous test like andriol it will ultimately inhibit the hypothalamus from producing GNrH which acts upon the pituitary. So pituitary shutdown is secondary to the hypothalamus.
> 
> If you've got the article please post it. I'd love to see it. And please don't let it be an article written by Joe Schmoe who has a column for Flex magazine or something. A published and peer reviewed study would be nice or something from Merck themselves.




Sorry for replying to an old topic but this is of much interest to me.

I am not allowed to post linkbut google"Merck leaflet Andriol"

From the official Merck leaflet:




Human Pharmacology
*In healthy men daily oral doses of 160 mg/day for 14 days did not suppress plasma FSH and LH 
levels nor pituitary responsiveness to stimulation by LHRH.
*

This is a replacement dose of Andriol.
With limited absorbtion rate of 7% of the 100mg testosterone contained in 160mg Andriol(4 caps),it translates to at least 7 mg testosterone daily in the bloodstream.

This equals a dose of about 100mg test-e given per 10 days.
Easy to find studies show that 100mg of injectable test a week brings LH FSH to a complete zero.
The non stop circulating effect of injected test is far more suppressive that the highs and lows/spikes that you get with Andriol. Also,the Andriol way of administration yields less estrogen conversion I presume.

All being said,I have a boatload of Andriols to try out(I have never taken it before).I will be doing blood work and reporting it.


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## Lt. Dangles

Hello, I'm new to the forums.  I signed up for one reason, my wife works for a plastic surgeon who was telling us about a legal FDA regulated trans dermal HGH gel.  Thought the people on this site would know more about it and if it is even possible.

Thanks


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## Jin

Lt. Dangles said:


> Hello, I'm new to the forums.  I signed up for one reason, my wife works for a plastic surgeon who was telling us about a legal FDA regulated trans dermal HGH gel.  Thought the people on this site would know more about it and if it is even possible.
> 
> Thanks



Hey Dangles,

how’s it hanging?

pretty sure that’s 100% horse shit. 

Start a new thread about it and you’ll get better responses.


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## DevilDoc87

Tell me Dangles, you still work for the Reno police department? :32 (18):


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## Chillinlow

Berry Dangles


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## lilman2019

My blood work just came back and I have low test levels.  My Dr. prescribed me test and I am getting my first dosage today.  Are there any immediate side effects I should be worried about?  I'm 38, pretty damn healthy but have noticed a significant drop in energy over the last 5 years.


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## Beezy

lilman2019 said:


> My blood work just came back and I have low test levels.  My Dr. prescribed me test and I am getting my first dosage today.  Are there any immediate side effects I should be worried about?  I'm 38, pretty damn healthy but have noticed a significant drop in energy over the last 5 years.



Severe rage, heart attacks and uncontrollable urges to eat hot womens’ asses.
Other than that, just a few more pimples on the back.


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## Rigorhead

lilman2019 said:


> My blood work just came back and I have low test levels.  My Dr. prescribed me test and I am getting my first dosage today.  Are there any immediate side effects I should be worried about?  I'm 38, pretty damn healthy but have noticed a significant drop in energy over the last 5 years.



You'll have more energy, your sex drive will go through the roof, and you'll burn fat/build muscle more efficiently. You'll feel better than you've felt in years. It takes 5-6 weeks to feel the full affects of TRT. Try to be patient.


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## Joey_2_clutch

lilman2019 said:


> My blood work just came back and I have low test levels.  My Dr. prescribed me test and I am getting my first dosage today.  Are there any immediate side effects I should be worried about?  I'm 38, pretty damn healthy but have noticed a significant drop in energy over the last 5 years.



very similar age and 295 total T, check my new member intro.
ive been on it two weeks and my mood is already better. So far, no insane mood swings that low T gave me. 
I have a lot to learn but worth the risk, which should be low if not abused, as I was going downhill fast.


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