# AAS HPTA & the Endocrine System should I wait till I'm what age & why ?



## John Ziegler (Aug 14, 2015)

*AAS HPTA & the Endocrine System should I wait till I'm what age & why ?*

There are various opinions on when and why a young man should wait till he's at least a certain age to start dabbling in aas. I'n this thread we will discuss at what age a man should be more comfortable about taking the risk that is involved in aas cycles. In my opinion under 25 is way to early and highly illogical. Especially if the individual is not in any competition that is going to make or break his financial outcome in the future. 

Openers might start with the endocrine system & effects it might have on HPTA.


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## NbleSavage (Aug 14, 2015)

For sake of discussion, what happens physiologically at age 25 that makes one ready for gear?


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## ToolSteel (Aug 14, 2015)

Your balls drop


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## Beedeezy (Aug 14, 2015)

I don't think they is a magic number. It's a maturity issue. Does the person really understand the gravity of the situation, are they ok "if" for some they can't recover and have to go on TRT the rest of their life.


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## Megatron28 (Aug 15, 2015)

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/


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## MrRippedZilla (Aug 15, 2015)

This is going to be pretty detailed so for those who've seen my thread on the other board by all means skip this topic since the message is pretty much the same (albeit with more data). 
For others who simply cant stand reading long essays of scientific mumbo jumbo - skip to the conclusion 

There is no specific "age" with regards to steroid use but, IMO, there is an age range of around 23-25.  
Since we don't know how mentally developed the newbies posting here are, it is always better to go with the safer option of 25.
Here's why....


- A group of guys  were treated back in the 60s & 70s with Sustanon 250 for 1 1/2 years in order to stop them from getting too tall - this was seen as a social disadvantage back then.
They then did a follow up 21yrs later to see if there were any lasting side effects compared to base levels of untreated men:

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2010-0435

"High-dose sex steroid treatment of boys does not affect their fatherhood or semen quality, as assessed after a mean follow-up of 21 years; however, *serum testosterone levels are significantly reduced in androgen-treated tall men...* 

The treatment of tall stature is based on the understanding that *exposure to gonadal steroids leads to epiphyseal fusion of the long bones during pubertal development*.

 "Leydig cell function was significantly affected by androgen treatment. In treated men, both serum testosterone and non-SHBG-bound testosterone levels were significantly reduced compared with untreated men. *We hypothesize that the decreased T levels may be caused by reduced Leydig cell growth during puberty and suboptimal functioning of the Leydig cells in later life."*


_What does all this mean?_

- Steroids can stunt your growth; this is one of the ways they were used in a clinical setting decades ago. 
Therefore it should be obvious that cycling before 18-21 is a bad idea (no, not everyone magically stops growing at 18) but this alone doesn't justify the generic "25" recommendation.

- Good news is that fertility doesn't seem to be affected in the long term BUT your HPTA clearly doesn't recover fully either judging by the lower test levels.
- The main theory at the moment explaining why people don't recover after cycling concerns Leydig cell dysfunction, a problem that has no solution to it outside of TRT.


_Now some of you will say that the risk of not recovering has more to do with overall dosage & length of cycles rather than age right?_

That would be wrong - its a combination of age, dosage and cycle length. The Leydig cell theory is key to understanding why people shouldn't cycle before their early-mid 20s...

http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9781588291318-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-396766-p173728262.

"The precursor cells for adult Leydig cells begin their transformation at approx 10 yr of age, and differentiation is complete by 13 yr of age....*During puberty, the number of adult Leydig cells increases and reaches a maximum of 5x10^8 per testis in the early 20s*..."

Considering your Leydig cells don't stop developing until your early 20s, and Leydig cell dysfunction appears to be the main reason for not recovering from AAS, I don't think its a stretch to say that starting AAS before your early 20s INCREASES the risk of AAS-induced hypogonadism. 


And THEN you have the fact that steroids do impact brain development:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25986964

"This multimodal magnetic resonance imaging study of the brain compared 10 male weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use with 10 age-matched weightlifters reporting no AAS exposure...
*AAS users had larger right amygdala volumes than nonusers (P=0.002) and reduced rsFC between right amygdala and frontal, striatal, limbic, hippocampal, and visual cortical areas*." 


And the brain, a pretty important part of the endocrine system, isn't done developing until your early-mid 20s anyway...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11698594

"In this study, we conducted detailed spatial and temporal analyses of growth and gray matter density at the cortical surface of the brain in a group of 35 normally developing children, adolescents, and young adults...
Fourteen children (7–11 years; mean age, 9.3 ± 1.3 years; 7 boys and 7 girls), 11 adolescents (12–16 years; mean age, 13.8 ± 1.6 years; 6 boys and 5 girls), and 10 young adults (23–30 years; mean age, 25.6 ± 2.0 years; 5 men and 5 women) were studied...
In this report*...we have mapped the spatial distribution of late brain growth and demonstrate that it does indeed continue in the frontal and posterior temporal lobes during the postadolescent years regardless of whether individual differences in global brain size are controlled."*

Interesting, but completely coincidental, that the postadolescent group had a mean age of 25...


AND the impact of brain development MAY be stronger when its not yet fully developed...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23274699

""Studies in both humans and animal models indicate that *AAS exposure during adolescence alters normal brain remodeling, including structural changes and neurotransmitter function... The evidence suggests that the use of AAS during this critical period of development may increase the risk for maladaptive behaviors along with neurological disorders.*"

So considering the brain isn't fully developed, and steroids do have an impact on different aspects of your brain, and this impact may be stronger when the brain isn't fully developed...it seems like a good idea to NOT interfere with the process. 


*Conclusion*

- Steroids can stunt your growth.
- Leydig cell dysfunction is the main theory explaining why some guys don't recover post AAS cycle.
- Leydig cells are not done developing until the early 20s.
- AAS does alter certain aspects of the brain, implications of this are uncertain.
- Brain development continues until the early-mid 20s. 
- The impact of AAS on the brain MAY be stronger when the endocrine system isn't fully developed.

- Based on all this, it makes sense to err on the side of caution and recommend an AAS starting age of 25


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## TheLupinator (Aug 15, 2015)

I thought estrogen stunted growth, not androgens.....


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## TheLupinator (Aug 15, 2015)

I agree that 25 is a relatively safe recommendation, but when looking at what those studies reveal and what occurs in real life - like almost everything - there is separation.. Looking at your other points (minus stunting growth), they revolved around natty test production and brain function.


Test production - If you don't want to risk your natty testosterone production then don't cycle. There is no "safe" age


Brain function - In my experience most people are stone cold fuccking stupid. Gear, drugs, and alcohol will not turn you into a dumb piece of shit and skipping out on a couple test cycles isn't going to help you cure AIDS. You're either there or you're not


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## MrRippedZilla (Aug 15, 2015)

TheLupinator said:


> I thought estrogen stunted growth, not androgens.....



I never said androgens cause stunted growth, I said gonadal steroids do - that includes estrogen.




TheLupinator said:


> Test production - If you don't want to risk your natty testosterone production then don't cycle. There is no "safe" age
> 
> 
> Brain function - In my experience most people are stone cold fuccking stupid. Gear, drugs, and alcohol will not turn you into a dumb piece of shit and skipping out on a couple test cycles isn't going to help you cure AIDS. You're either there or you're not



The point was that cycling at an earlier age INCREASES the risk, not that the risk somehow disappears the older you get. 

The studies used neuroimaging to see the differences between a normal & AAS individuals brain - there were clear differences to the point where I cant see how you can make a rational argument against this.
Whether the changes are bad or whatever remains to be seen - the neuroscientists are clueless on what any of this stuff means so I'm certainly not going to make a guess. Hence my "implications are uncertain" comment in the conclusion


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## TheLupinator (Aug 15, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I never said androgens cause stunted growth, I said gonadal steroids do - that includes estrogen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with the information presented and I thank you for taking the time to post it. You always have good information even if we disagree 99% of the time.


But lets not forget this thread was started by Ziggy for the purpose of validating his opinion that at 24 years old you are too young to start gear because your endocrine system isn't fully developed. Again Ziggy I don't disagree with the 25 years being a solid recommendation, but do you see how this is very much a grey area? 25 is not the magic number - good recommendation - but it's not something to get all defensive on when another member disagrees with you by 1 fuccking year. 


Most here abide by the - knowing your body through years of sound diet and nutrition - rule. Even guys who get into PL and BB at a young age i.e. 17, 18 won't know there bodies until 21-22yo. Most here won't recommend a cycle to anyone under 21yo because you haven't gotten all the kinks out of your diet and training and have plenty of natural gains to be had. after that you've "earned" your right to gear up.

And this holds true for the 30 year olds who have been in the gym for 10 years but never trained seriously, made any noticeable gains, and never had a solid diet - these guys wanna hop on cycle after 10 years of "training on and off with the last year seriously" - fucck outta here


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## HDH (Aug 15, 2015)

I think 25 is a good "base" number. I wouldn't suggest to a 23 year old to start a cycle but if they are already cycling, I would give them advice since they're already there.

I would suggest it for a 24 year old depending on their maturity level, time training, how well they know their body and their ability to understand the positives and negatives of aas usage.

I say 25 as a "base" number because I believe everyone is different and people mature and develop at different levels.

This has been my thinking for years.

Thanks RZ for the detailed reply.

Thanks Z for the discussion topic.

H


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

Bump in the interests of posterity.


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## hulksmash (Mar 26, 2019)

This belief is the same information people *parrot in the echo chamber that is AAS forums.*

RippedZilla: You're *incorrect* saying only TRT is the only solution for Leydig cell dysfunction. Exogenous LH restores Leydig cell function remarkably well.

I've _never_ seen Leydig cell dysfunction be held as the main theory for loss of recovery after cycling off of AAS. That's a bold statrment, and would like to see the evidence of its universal acceptance.

If a younger male chooses to revolve their life around BBing/PLing, they have no reason to listen to the "rules" given for _when_ to start using AAS.

*NO ONE* needs to push "don't start gear until you're 25 or you'll **** your body up permanently" as a _fact_. It's not. No two people are the same. The only thing that should be parroted are factual risks with using AAS, and let the person decide.

*I'm not a ****ing babysitter* and I am sick and tired of being attacked through the years for not telling anyone "no". I have followed the script here and said the bullshit long enough. Everyone else here will scream about age limits and crap for me.

I'll present factual risks and let the person decide for themselves.

P.S. Zilla, I wasn't attacking you; I simply brought up 2 points. Had to say this because you were a little sensitive last time. I wrote those points in a calm, curious tone.


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