# TRT guy : Advice wanted!



## espy (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi!

So I have been on TRT for a little while ... and since I am not particularly maccho dude, somehow expected to gain some muscle, well which I did - but not exactly what I was looking for. So my doctor recommended me to do some peptides. I was using Dual Blend and it didn't work well? It made me hungry but didn't really contribute to gain anything. (probably some water weights) 

Now, I started Tri-Blend. As you all know it makes you hungry like hell and I always eat three eggs after I shoot the peptide but I started to lose weight??? Please see the picture attached. That's my weight from last year. 

I have been working out about 4 x a week, and I usually eat

Morning : Trout + Tofu Miso soup with three eggs
Lunch : Two fist sized protein and Fruits (honeydew... pineapples..)
Afternoon snack : Protein shake
Dinner : Two fist sized protein and white rice (I can't really do brown rice, come on, it's like, my life source.)
After GHRP : two to three eggs, or protein shake 


I'm *partially* muscled now, Since I ride bicycle and usually ride around 20 miles or so on weekends and (Don't LAUGH) Squat about 200LBS. But although I think I workout pretty hard - I don't really see any results. My arms are "wait, do you really work out?" shape.

I'm 40. I don't except to have a big gain so kinda started to realize the need of further enhancement. Thinking about adding Tren on my TRT.

What do I do wrong?


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## Chairman510 (Mar 8, 2014)

You need to eat more to grow. What do you workouts look like? You probably want up lift more than 4 days a week


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## espy (Mar 8, 2014)

Hey Chairman thanks for a quick reply !

I change body parts to work out weekly - so here's what I did this week. (as far as I can remember)

Tue : Bench Press 8 x 4
        Bent over two dumbbell row 8 x 4
        Incline dumbbell flies 8 x 4
        T-Bar row 8 x 4
        Some Abs
       (work out with a trainer)

Thu : Dumbbell shoulder press 8 x 4
        Front two dumbbell raise 8 x 4
        Standing Bradford press 8 x 4
        Shrug 15 x 4
        Bicep curls 8 x 4 
        Tricep  8 x 4

Fri : Squat 8 x 4
       Deadlift 8 x 4
       Holding dumbbels and walk around 24 steps x 4
       Cowbell squat 8 x 4
       Seated Legcurl 8 x 4

Sat : Work out with a trainer 


And eat - I am not really good at eating. I mean, I cook, so the quality of food are awesome, I can't do volumes. Only when I shoot GHRP - then I can eat like three eggs.


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## transcend2007 (Mar 8, 2014)

Espy ~ how long have you been on TRT (exactly).  And, what is your regimen (how much testosterone per week)?

Building muscle takes time.  I have been on TRT for more than 3 year.  I have completely changed my body.  But, it did not happen in the first month or even the first 6 months.

I have averaged 200mgs of Test cyp over that time.  However, I have increased that dosage a few times a well.  I started my HRT at 44 years old and I will be 48 this month.


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## espy (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi Transcend!

I have been on since september. So roughly 7 months or so. Under my doc's supervision, I self-administrate 200mgs Test cyp once a week. It started out 150, and it did not give me any mood change so I talked to my doc, and he increased the dosage to 200. 
Prior to that - I had been working out regularly as well. But (with my fault included) The result was just not there. I think the fault was food - it was highly carb centric (I'm a Japanese, I can eat 3 cups of rice with 1 little piece of seaweed) But besides that - I think I was undernourished. Needed to eat more. And workout intensity. I always focused on lifting heavy - so I didn't think about intervals. I was lifting... checking email.... drinking water...  really sad.  I now give myself 45 ~ 60 sec intervals, and lift like (well, puny tiny weights) there is no tomorrow. Results are astonishing... I was doing all wrong.

So conditions are set, but with all that - the progress isn't exactly what I nearly imagined. Working out for 3 years - Age, genetically poor on muscle, carb driven ... I just have to keep going.


After initial researching - I would like to go with one of two options.

1. Blasting : I think I can have enough test cyp to blast for about 8 weeks without sacrificing weekly dosages. My main question is If I go 400mgs - Do I need aromatase inhibitor or is my regular HCG (1ml a week) enough ? Doc is kinda weird, he supplies me with ample amount of test with trust - but when it comes to aromatase inhibitor he tells me to use herbs. O_O Also - important thing that I would like to know, is after the blasting is done and I'm going back to 200, will that make me crash? (mood,physically) 

2. Adding Tren : Besides I have the vague idea of how difficult to procure it - sounding like this will give me a good base. Because of TRT I came to learn basics of hormone balance and how to control, and live with it - I'd like to give it a try.

Lots of questions!

I didn't really have anyone else to talk to, so pretty much figured out there was something wrong with me physically and got my testo level stable. Now it's about the time to try harder and be the person I wanted to be!


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## Chairman510 (Mar 8, 2014)

Your trt dr didn't give you an AI? You shouldn't even think of adding tren! I would just stick to trt for a while and adjust your diet. Gains will come it takes time. You most likely need to add another day of lifting and change up your workouts. Look up some of the bros workouts on here I'm sure you can some great workouts. I'm an oly lifter so I can't really help you with a body building workout.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 8, 2014)

espy said:


> Hi Transcend!
> 
> I have been on since september. So roughly 7 months or so. Under my doc's supervision, I self-administrate 200mgs Test cyp once a week. It started out 150, and it did not give me any mood change so I talked to my doc, and he increased the dosage to 200.
> Prior to that - I had been working out regularly as well. But (with my fault included) The result was just not there. I think the fault was food - it was highly carb centric (I'm a Japanese, I can eat 3 cups of rice with 1 little piece of seaweed) But besides that - I think I was undernourished. Needed to eat more. And workout intensity. I always focused on lifting heavy - so I didn't think about intervals. I was lifting... checking email.... drinking water...  really sad.  I now give myself 45 ~ 60 sec intervals, and lift like (well, puny tiny weights) there is no tomorrow. Results are astonishing... I was doing all wrong.
> ...



It's not possible to exhaust your natural gains in 3yrs of training. There's a problem with either your training, nutrition or diet. Hormones too but that should be in check if you're on TRT. To answer your questions:

1) an 8wk blast of test Cyp isn't much. Most will recommend you blast 12+wks. What is your estradiol level at? If it's not too high you can get away with adding DIM, copper, and zinc but if it's high you'll need an AI such as adex or aromasin. Talk to your doctor about prescribing one of these meds if E2 is an issue for you. Bring references with you on efficacy and safety of AI use in makes to treat elevated E2. If he doesn't accept either get your own AI or find a new doctor. 

HCG has nothing to do with AI besides making you need one even more. HCG is aromatizable so this means it will lead to an elevation in E2. It will NOT treat high E2 nor is it supposed to. HCG is added to cycles and TRT protocols to maintain the P450SCC enzyme which is primarily responsible for producing sex steroids. It act as as a LH analog so it stimulates testicular function and prevents atrophy. LH also serves many other functions especially with the adrenal system so it can also help prevent adrenal issues that may arise. If you haven't already, I'd pin the HCG at 250iu twice weekly. Two days before you pin your TRT dose and the day before (if doing once a week shots) and pin it the day before each TRT shot (if doing bi weekly injections). 

After a blast you'd just go back to PCT and while you won't feel the same as you would on supraphysiological levels while on your TRT dose, you won't exactly crash like someone who runs PCT. 

2) you're not ready for tren IMO. You do know a bit about hormone management but you've never dealt with them on a blast. Blasting and TRT are different beasts. Figure out what's wrong with your training diet or recovery, run a standard test only cycle (maybe add an oral) and worry about ten for future runs.


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## espy (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi Docd!

I really appreciate your in-detail explanation - many things has become crystal clear!
My E2 is currently at 48 pg/ml And my test is 570 last time I checked (2 months ago) I started to have very mild, but persistent acne on my shoulder and upper back (I was never an acne kid)  I asked my doc if I can have AI but he said I should be taking DHT blocker supplement *or* Saw Palmetto (I made a big mistake and took DHT blocker and Saw Palmetto together.... you know what happens when you do? ***BOOOOOM****)  I picked Saw Palmetto. It actually made my acne better to some extent, but still having acne. I understand that's least of my concern... Need to get the level balanced. 

Oh so, When I told him about Saw Palmetto is kinda sorta working but not quite - (Because I believed acne being manifested means my E2 is still not at right level) Doc told me if it continues for more than 2 months, he will prescribe Finasteride (Propecia????) I.. uh..am far away from bald. It looks like it converts testo to DHT.  Isn't it like opposite of AI?

Oh well.

for 1) I understand, I will try 12 weeks and see how far I can push. Also I'll switch to 2 x half potion HCG injection instead of 1 X full a week. Doc currently putting me 1 x 1000iu - suppose this is probably causing me to have more E2?

Although you gave me the detail answer - I'm still very interested in knowing how on blast / off blast make me feel. Will I crash so hard to the point I can't work? Depression? Also - when I stop blasting - Should I adjust the dosage at once from 400 - 200, or stage process like 400, 350, 300, 250, 200?


2) I understand, I will hold off Tren and see the blast can do some magic. Although I sill feel the need to have a boost / kick start to bring me to where I want to be, for now I do not feel anything I do works.


Thanks again Docd!! you are awesome.


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## meat (Mar 9, 2014)

espy said:


> Hi!
> 
> So I have been on TRT for a little while ... and since I am not particularly maccho dude, somehow expected to gain some muscle, well which I did - but not exactly what I was looking for. So my doctor recommended me to do some peptides. I was using Dual Blend and it didn't work well? It made me hungry but didn't really contribute to gain anything. (probably some water weights)
> 
> ...



What did you do wrong? It's what you've not done yet. Your diet is a train wreck. Fix that like yesterday. Btw, I'm on TRT for life, and am 41. Here's what you need to do:
1. Fix diet. It's really bad.
2. Stop messing around with peptides. You'd be surprised at what just plain and simple test can do. KEEP IT SIMPLE. 
3. Start adding SMALL amounts of weight each week to the barbell. Yes, that can mean adding 1/2 lb magnets. Last, fix diet.


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## meat (Mar 9, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> It's not possible to exhaust your natural gains in 3yrs of training. There's a problem with either your training, nutrition or diet. Hormones too but that should be in check if you're on TRT. To answer your questions:
> 
> 1) an 8wk blast of test Cyp isn't much. Most will recommend you blast 12+wks. What is your estradiol level at? If it's not too high you can get away with adding DIM, copper, and zinc but if it's high you'll need an AI such as adex or aromasin. Talk to your doctor about prescribing one of these meds if E2 is an issue for you. Bring references with you on efficacy and safety of AI use in makes to treat elevated E2. If he doesn't accept either get your own AI or find a new doctor.
> 
> ...



Agreed. And once he fixes that nightmare of a diet, I'd recommend 16 weeks of higher-dose test only.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 10, 2014)

espy said:


> Hi Docd!
> 
> I really appreciate your in-detail explanation - many things has become crystal clear!
> My E2 is currently at 48 pg/ml And my test is 570 last time I checked (2 months ago) I started to have very mild, but persistent acne on my shoulder and upper back (I was never an acne kid)  I asked my doc if I can have AI but he said I should be taking DHT blocker supplement *or* Saw Palmetto (I made a big mistake and took DHT blocker and Saw Palmetto together.... you know what happens when you do? ***BOOOOOM****)  I picked Saw Palmetto. It actually made my acne better to some extent, but still having acne. I understand that's least of my concern... Need to get the level balanced.
> ...



You're welcome Espy. 

 570ng/dL is pretty low for being on TRT and while you're AI isn't ridiculously high, many TRT patients feel better in the 20-30pg/ml range and that may help somewhat with the acne. I'm not versed on finasteride so maybe someone else could chime in here. I do know there are some OTC things that may help. Here is a popular one from a friend of mine:

[QUOTE





austinite said:


> There's been quite a few threads regarding acne and how everyone treats it. I'll explain what I've done to keep acne under control and go into a bit of detail on how it actually works. I typically only get acne on some cycles, but once in awhile I'll change my diet and get hit with some acne. Keep in mind, while the evidence is there, your experience may vary. Severity of acne could be affect how well this protocol may work. But this will be a great place to start and whether it cures your acne or not, it will certainly minimize it. It's not a guessing game, it works.
> 
> It's important to understand that nothing happens overnight. Even prescription medication is not a magical-instant-cure. However, this will allow those who don't have access to prescription medication to supplement with Over-the-Counter products at a cost effective price.
> 
> ...



1) you'll be pleasantly surprised what a 12-16wk 'blast/cycle' can do to you, ESPECIALLY considering your TRT has your test levels at only 570 . That 570 will multiply lol. A 1000iu shot of HCG each wk will definitely cause a spike to your E2 levels and is somewhat of a waste since the body can only metabolize so much HCG in a single injection and the Ledyig cells in the testes can only be stimulated so much and there is a limited supply of those cells as well. 250iu twice a week is plenty and well within those parameters and will not cause the same spike in E2. 

2) you should not crash that hard no. It can happen to ppl who aren't on TRT bc when they come off cycle there's a period of time where endogenous testosterone production has not picked up and the exogenous testosterone has been fully metabolized. This is the 'crash'. You're going back to TRT levels so you'll experience a more gradual decline in levels and not hit a point of no testosterone bc you're injecting it with TRT. No, when you finish the blast go straight to the TRT dose. No need to taper down. 

3) you feel like nothing works bc of the diet/training/recovery issues I brought up as well as your relatively low TRT levels. A blast in and of itself will change the low levels without tren and without a kick start. IMO your primary focus should be on fixing the non-hormonal issues first as doing so will net you progress without the blast. Remember you have to control the cycle not let it control you so don't out the cart before the horse...fix the issues presented to you, run a test only blast, reap the rewards, and while you go back to the TRT dose think about what you'd like to run next


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## espy (Mar 12, 2014)

meat said:


> What did you do wrong? It's what you've not done yet. Your diet is a train wreck. Fix that like yesterday. Btw, I'm on TRT for life, and am 41. Here's what you need to do:
> 1. Fix diet. It's really bad.
> 2. Stop messing around with peptides. You'd be surprised at what just plain and simple test can do. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
> 3. Start adding SMALL amounts of weight each week to the barbell. Yes, that can mean adding 1/2 lb magnets. Last, fix diet.




Hey Meat, awesome suggestions! Thank you so much!
• I am going to review what I eat once again and will increase the calorie intake as well. Probably more food in general, breaking up in 5 - 6 times, and add some complex carbs... yeah?
• I'll stop using GHRPS - It is actually not quite? doing anything but making me hungry. Since I don't eat enough it may be a good thing though, but other than that.. got it.
•*The weight I can lift is actually going up - With personal trainer x 3 and additional gym day x 1 or 2, total of 4 ~ 5 days for a week - I think I'm doing great now.


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## espy (Mar 12, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You're welcome Espy.
> 
> 570ng/dL is pretty low for being on TRT and while you're AI isn't ridiculously high, many TRT patients feel better in the 20-30pg/ml range and that may help somewhat with the acne. I'm not versed on finasteride so maybe someone else could chime in here. I do know there are some OTC things that may help. Here is a popular one from a friend of mine:
> 
> ...



This is a great advice. Thank you SO much!
Non-hormone issues is now my top priority. 
Also since I read the first feedback from this thread - I changed my HCG dosage and cut it by half and injecting 2 x a week instead of giving a full dosage a week. You know what happened? 

PIMPLES ARE GONE

O_O

(and excuse my Japanese..) and my balls really feeling like it's "normal" As it really should be. When I was giving a full dosage and twice the amount They were just little on tighter side. Just changing this made a total difference!


This forum provided me awesome amount of stuff to reconsider, re-plan and I am glad that I was able to find this place! (and thanks for providing me great deal of info to a stranger...!!!)

I decided to go with 600ml (300 x 2) blast a week for 12 then if I see I could go further - i'll extend it to 16. I have NPP with me, Because I would very much like to have a good base -  (grow big now, then incremental size increase in coming years) I'll probably add 200 (100 x 2) a week as well.


I'll create a meal plan and will share them with you guys shortly!


Thanks guys!


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## meat (Mar 13, 2014)

espy said:


> Hey Meat, awesome suggestions! Thank you so much!
> • I am going to review what I eat once again and will increase the calorie intake as well. Probably more food in general, breaking up in 5 - 6 times, and add some complex carbs... yeah?
> • I'll stop using GHRPS - It is actually not quite? doing anything but making me hungry. Since I don't eat enough it may be a good thing though, but other than that.. got it.
> •*The weight I can lift is actually going up - With personal trainer x 3 and additional gym day x 1 or 2, total of 4 ~ 5 days for a week - I think I'm doing great now.



Sounds better. There's quite a bit of nutrition information on this board. That's the key to it all.


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## NavyChief (Mar 17, 2014)

Get rid of the GHRP.  Add in some EQ to your cycle to help with your diet/eating more.


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## espy (Mar 18, 2014)

So, I changed my diet - eating about 4 times (I get full and cannot stuff my face anymore lol) a day, and added complex carb (white rice --> Brown rice) and upped protein intake. Also as NavyCheif suggested, I stopped taking GHRP. I wanted to add EQ but I'm sourceless so it'll probably be impossible for me to get stuff. I did however though. got 2 bottles of NPP. so I'm doing

Test e (600ml a week, divided into 2 shots)
NPP (200ml a week, divided into 2 shots)
HCG (500ml a week, divided into 2 shots)

I haven't started Arimidex or Nova - My nipples feels fine and haven't really seen any problems on my body. (After I changed HCG dosage - pimple stopped as well.)


So I was imagining this much test e and NPP (this is my 2nd week) I'll be growling screaming raging steroid monster who is about to slaughter people on sight, but actually I'm calm as ever and so are my muscles. It's as puny and skinny as usual (Well, I started to lose weight, notably fat)... and since I'm getting test from a doc... it shouldn't be fake. Well, Libido is up. (I'm using the same test that I use for TRT, I just happened to have more of it so using for a 16 week cycle.) And yup, I'm doing intense workout about 4 to 5 days for a week with a trainer.


When will I see this thing work?


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## Rip (Mar 18, 2014)

If a person knows how to eat and train, you can become pretty muscular. If you're not eating right or you're lifting with improper FORM, then even steroids aren't going to do much. 
I see so many guys in the gym, who have no idea of what they're doing with regards to executing a particular exercise correctly. 
If you're one of those guys, you're not going to get results. (e.g. A lateral raise isn't supposed to be a rotation exercise).
Then, if we were to ask them what they eat on a typical day, it would say a lot about why they look the way they do. Combine that with their lifting technique, and you have a big waste of time and energy. 
Steroids can help,  but it's important that everything else is in order too.


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## espy (Mar 19, 2014)

I think training-wise (even though I'm quite a noob) I am following strict form and direction from my trainer, whom I think he's pretty great - knows what he is doing and he trains me very intensely. 

Foodwise.... really is about eating more. although that is a very difficult thing for me to accomplish! From your eyes, I think I eat very little. So far I haven't been able to find an effective way to shove everything in my mouth.. I am depending on protein shakes when possible. 

Long Journey ahead!


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## Rip (Mar 25, 2014)

After being on TRT for about 5 years, I just switched insurance and they refuse to pay for Testosterone. What do they expect me to do, go off of it, cold turkey? 
I'm going to have to self-medicate. I do anyway.


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## Megatron28 (Mar 25, 2014)

Rip said:


> After being on TRT for about 5 years, I just switched insurance and they refuse to pay for Testosterone. What do they expect me to do, go off of it, cold turkey?
> I'm going to have to self-medicate. I do anyway.



Go to GoodRX.  You can get a coupon to buy a 10ml vial of testosterone cypionate for about $42 from pharmacies like CVS.  On TRT that should last you 2-3 months easy.  That is a better deal than going UGL.


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## espy (Apr 9, 2014)

My insurance covers it for now as well as HCG - I'm not really worried about Testosterone pricing but holy shit, HCG 1 viral costs like $260 without insurance. (with insurance it's like $10) Without HCG - I can hear the sound of my nuts shrinking ... and omg, the size - It's sad to have Asian nuts, so HCG is really essential to me.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Apr 9, 2014)

espy said:


> My insurance covers it for now as well as HCG - I'm not really worried about Testosterone pricing but holy shit, HCG 1 viral costs like $260 without insurance. (with insurance it's like $10) Without HCG - I can hear the sound of my nuts shrinking ... and omg, the size - It's sad to have Asian nuts, so HCG is really essential to me.



Asian nuts?


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