# Leg Press vs Squats



## tochi121 (Nov 23, 2021)

Bad knees as always and never done leg pressing for any amount of time. Knees are just getting bad off and going to switch and be able to do stiff legged deads again post presses. I'm one of the biggest squat promoters there is but knees keeping me from hitting parallel. Not a true movement unless that is reached. Don't ask me to name the rips or strains on both caps..haa..long list just looking result wise and loss of overall body strength?

Anyone else ever switch over for good? Will bring my hams and lower back up by being able to add the deads just wondering on mainly overall and thigh mass. 16 year squatter and done..


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## BeefMince (Nov 23, 2021)

I do just heavy leg presses. No more squats. I like the pump better from leg presses anyways. Squats always hit my glutes more and lower back. I wear neoprene knee supports or wraps. No problems going with 20 plates right now. Deads are tough on your low back, as they put a lot of pressure on your discs. Try the shuttle leg press machine. They use it in physical therapy. Not as bad on the knees, with lunges maybe. Good luck.


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## BrotherIron (Nov 23, 2021)

Have you tried box squatting on a low box. When you squat is there any forward knee travel? That would put more sheering force on the knee.

As for leg presses, you could adjust your foot placement to keep pressure on the knee to a minimum.  But like I said, this can also be achieved by adjusting your squat.


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## dk8594 (Nov 23, 2021)

My thighs didn’t start growing until I started using leg presses as my primary thigh movement and ceased squatting altogether.  Growing up a fan a platz it was a blow to my ego, but a couple of observations.

- mobility plays a large part in being able to squat property.  If you don’t have it, you’ll likely be taxing your back as much as your legs; worse, you may be setting yourself up for injury

- for me safety is a concern.  I train to failure and feel much more comfortable doing it with a leg press with a catch than hoping I am going to safely  catch the bar in the squat rack.

- for strength athletes and power lifters there is no way around not squatting.   For BB, however, there are many roads to hypertrophy besides squats.

As a general rule, do the leg movements that don’t cause you knee pain; throw out those that do.  In the meantime, assess if you knee is still possible to rehab through corrective exercise.  

In specific regards to knees, assess your hips and glutes.  Most knee issues originate there.


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## Seeker (Nov 23, 2021)

I have been squatting for 40 years and not once have i ever had knee issues. Though this past year i have been experiencing some knee discomfort. Knee sleeves have helped, so has extra time warming up. Ive always adjusted my stance when squatting depending on my plan for the lift. Wider stance can help, and as Broiron suggested, box squatting with a low box. I am definitely a big advocate for squats. Always have been, always will be.  Most people who experience knee pain while squatting without having any pre existing issues just aren't squatting properly.


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## Gadawg (Nov 24, 2021)

Dorian did only leg press. Seems like it worked out ok.


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## galantra (Nov 24, 2021)

This has always been a debate for me. My legs grew from leg press. But everyone swears on squatting but I can never go truly that heavy. I can’t get any type of definition on my legs 


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## Ryu (Nov 24, 2021)

I just reintroduced squats after time off due to a knee issue. That said I don't go stupid heavy (with a lot of focus on the muscle connection) and good knee sleeves are the win. 

I wish I had of started using sleeves years ago. 

A mix of squats and leg press movements is great if you can manage both.


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## Jaydub (Nov 24, 2021)

Squats have a tendency to hurt my knees as well. What I found was that they just needed a THOROUGH warm up. I started with leg presses, after 5 sets or so my knees were ready to squat. Might just be me, but it worked.


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## TeddyBear (Nov 24, 2021)

I’ll say, after a year of trying to get my squat up, and trying to movie powerlift…

I’ve seen more leg improvement in the last three months to leg Press than a year of squatting.


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## dirtys1x (Nov 24, 2021)

in my opinion, stay away from anything that causes you pain. If that’s squats, dump em. You don’t NEED squats. You don’t need any exercise. No exercise is essential for muscle growth and there is a million variations to everything. Find what doesn’t cause pain and stick to it. Leg presses are great so just roll with that.


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## HeiseTX (Nov 24, 2021)

I can still squat, however not as strong and my hip flute medius tends to tighten up so I have to deal with that. Still love leg press for quads and main gluteus. Sumo Squats hit my inner thighs well it seems, like no other exercise


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## Methyl mike (Nov 24, 2021)

Seeker said:


> I have been squatting for 40 years and not once have i ever had knee issues. Though this past year i have been experiencing some knee discomfort. Knee sleeves have helped, so has extra time warming up. Ive always adjusted my stance when squatting depending on my plan for the lift. Wider stance can help, and as Broiron suggested, box squatting with a low box. I am definitely a big advocate for squats. Always have been, always will be.  Most people who experience knee pain while squatting without having any pre existing issues just aren't squatting properly.


Squatting my whole lifting life here, so 26 years now. Pain free. I attribute longevity to my warmup and stretching routine and never going too heavy. I push myself for sure, but you won't see me overload the bar and resort to shit form.

To OP try this after a warmup do some extensions to get a good pump and hit some 1 leg presses go to failure and pyramid so you start 12 reps next set 8 then 6. After go to hacks and go heavy for just 2-3really balls out sets deep reps break parallel. You should see good leg growth without knee stress.


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## BrotherIron (Nov 24, 2021)

Shocked to see so many ditch squats so easily. Squatting is a human movement and one everyone should be able to do safely, effectively, etc. Another human movement is hip-hinging ie. deadlift. If you can't do these things you have issues that need to be addressed. Unless you have some serious injury which is keeping you from properly performing the movement.

I'm 42yo and have had complete knee replacement (30yrs ago when knee replacements were in their infancy) as well as other surgeries and I still squat and have been for over 25yrs straight.

Look at the mechanics of how you perform the movement and I'd wager there are glaring issues that need to be addressed.


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## Methyl mike (Nov 24, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> Shocked to see so many ditch squats so easily. Squatting is a human movement and one everyone should be able to do safely, effectively, etc. Another human movement is hip-hinging ie. deadlift. If you can't do these things you have issues that need to be addressed. Unless you have some serious injury which is keeping you from properly performing the movement.
> 
> I'm 42yo and have had complete knee replacement (30yrs ago when knee replacements were in their infancy) as well as other surgeries and I still squat and have been for over 25yrs straight.
> 
> Look at the mechanics of how you perform the movement and I'd wager there are glaring issues that need to be addressed.


Absolutely this


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## dirtys1x (Nov 24, 2021)

BrotherIron said:


> Shocked to see so many ditch squats so easily. Squatting is a human movement and one everyone should be able to do safely, effectively, etc. Another human movement is hip-hinging ie. deadlift. If you can't do these things you have issues that need to be addressed. Unless you have some serious injury which is keeping you from properly performing the movement.
> 
> I'm 42yo and have had complete knee replacement (30yrs ago when knee replacements were in their infancy) as well as other surgeries and I still squat and have been for over 25yrs straight.
> 
> Look at the mechanics of how you perform the movement and I'd wager there are glaring issues that need to be addressed.


This is true to some extent. Everyone’s body is different and has different mechanical advantages. Yes squatting is a perfectly natural human movement. However, I think most peoples pain doesn’t come from body weight squats but rather squats under tremendous load. Let’s be honest, the human body wasn’t really designed to handle 2-3x your body weight squatted like that. We squatted to take shits, not to carry 400-500 lbs and then drop our ass to the ground for no reason.

Also, I would consider leg press pretty much just an assisted squat.


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## MrBafner (Nov 24, 2021)

I use to squat a fair bit when we did 5 years of CrossFit and have seen so many people with injuries that require an operation.
Have travelled and been coached by some of the best in this country and they will tell you that feet position is more of a personal choice .. whereas a lot of coach's that have done only a 1 day lvl 1 CrossFit coach course will try to fix your stance, feet position and some might even want more pressure on your heels than having a flat comfortable stance for your body.
I wouldn't listen to most CrossFit coaches .. they are like a PT without any qualifications.

Our kids had a full day training with Dmitry Klokov and he was amazing .. he did a 180kg hang snatch .. WOW. His comments where as long as the feet are shoulder width and comfortable that is fine, his thing is that your knees always have to press out while squatting upwards and most people bring their knees in and that causes injury.
I do barbell squats sometimes, not all the time .. I prefer hack squats combined with leg press these days.


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## The Phoenix (Nov 24, 2021)

dk8594 said:


> My thighs didn’t start growing until I started using leg presses as my primary thigh movement and ceased squatting altogether.  Growing up a fan a platz it was a blow to my ego, but a couple of observations.
> 
> - mobility plays a large part in being able to squat property.  If you don’t have it, you’ll likely be taxing your back as much as your legs; worse, you may be setting yourself up for injury
> 
> ...


same thing here, and i started angling the foot inward and got better results.  i however, institute both, some days for legs I will just have a squat party with the boys and do like 12-15 sets and that's it, maybe some calves to add in.


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## wotmeworry (Nov 24, 2021)

The quads extend the knee, so anything that works them will stress the knee to some extent.  Can only explore exercises to load the quads with least pain.  Oddly, I find cable sissy squats (with knees waaaay past my toes) to be one of the best ... might be the resistance curve, I don't know, but quad bang for knee pain buck is highest for me with those.

Volume can also be an issue, especially with joints over time.  As I retreat in the face of wear and tear, I have learnt to limit warm-ups to just what is needed to do working sets safely, do the working sets I can (sometimes just 2, sometimes 4) and avoid any "junk" volume after those.  Good recovery between workouts, too.


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## notsoswoleCPA (Nov 24, 2021)

Gadawg said:


> Dorian did only leg press. Seems like it worked out ok.


Didn't he injure his lower back which made him transition to the leg press machine over squatting?


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## Joliver (Nov 24, 2021)

Painful and inflammatory comment inbound:

The squat requires excellent metabolic and cardiovascular conditioning to achieve the kind of volume that delivers leg hypertrophy. 

If you are one that abandoned the squat for leg press volume, you've inadvertently made a terrible admission. 

But continue....


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## GymRat79 (Nov 24, 2021)

I would imagine squats are not necessary in bodybuilding to build quality muscle. Leg presses provide that just fine.. In powerlifting you better be able to squat.

Different sports require different training.


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## Fvckinashman (Nov 24, 2021)

For bodybuilding: leg press is superior in a lot of ways. 

Squats are still solid AF but don’t rely on them for leg development. Use them for strength base building. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## snake (Nov 24, 2021)

Right out of the gate the question is loaded. It's not Squats v. Leg Press it's will Leg Presses help after Squats: Squats are a given. I personally do not know anyone that built a good set of legs without squats.

I'm going to give you what I have learned. If you squat with all your heart, you really don't need to do much more unless you just want to empty the tank. During your growth stage; those first 5-10 years you better be squating heavy but you do not need to be doing reps of 15 or 3. I found 6-8 repssssss to be the sweet spot. Reps of 15 and 3's are just too dangerous. YES! BOTH!



Bottom line: Squats grow muscle, muscle moves weight. More muscle, more weight, more weight, more muscle.


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## Seeker (Nov 24, 2021)

snake said:


> Right out of the gate the question is loaded. It's not Squats v. Leg Press it's will Leg Presses help after Squats: Squats are a given. I personally do not know anyone that built a good set of legs without squats.
> 
> I'm going to give you what I have learned. If you squat with all your heart, you really don't need to do much more unless you just want to empty the tank. During your growth stage; those first 5-10 years you better be squating heavy but you do not need to be doing reps of 15 or 3. I found 6-8 repssssss to be the sweet spot. Reps of 15 and 3's are just too dangerious. YES! BOTH!
> 
> ...


For people to say squats don't build solid leg size and muscle just leads me to believe these people don't know a damn thing  about the exercise and its mechanics, functions and capabilities. My quads, as i know yours, and most people I know who


snake said:


> Right out of the gate the question is loaded. It's not Squats v. Leg Press it's will Leg Presses help after Squats: Squats are a given. I personally do not know anyone that built a good set of legs without squats.
> 
> I'm going to give you what I have learned. If you squat with all your heart, you really don't need to do much more unless you just want to empty the tank. During your growth stage; those first 5-10 years you better be squating heavy but you do not need to be doing reps of 15 or 3. I found 6-8 repssssss to be the sweet spot. Reps of 15 and 3's are just too dangerous. YES! BOTH!
> 
> ...


Interesting comments from a poster above saying squats don't build muscle. Being that you, I,  and countless others, many that i personally know have built impressive legs from mostly squats.


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## snake (Nov 24, 2021)

Seeker said:


> For people to say squats don't build solid leg size and muscle just leads me to believe these people don't know a damn thing  about the exercise and its mechanics, functions and capabilities. My quads, as i know yours, and most people I know who
> 
> Interesting comments from a poster above saying squats don't build muscle. Being that you, I,  and countless others, many that i personally know have built impressive legs from mostly squats.


Let's not leave out the weights we have used to get those legs.

 Shocked someone didn't post the squat poem. lol


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## Seeker (Nov 24, 2021)

snake said:


> Let's not leave out the weights we have used to get those legs.
> 
> Shocked someone didn't post the squat poem. lol


Lol ugh i double posted somehow. Yes, obviously ive been gone a bit and still trying to navigate the new look here


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## supreme666leader (Nov 24, 2021)

personally dont like squats, walking the heavy weight out and re racking i worry about stumbling. i do heavy leg press and hack squats good enough for me.


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## Uncle manny (Nov 24, 2021)

Lots of great feedback above! Sounds like you're knees are pretty beat so I'll offer you a different piece of advice that most of us men are reluctant to consider.... get them checked out to figure out what's the real deal. I'm suggesting so you could possibly adjust your stance/barbell properly or even do some Pt.

 If you completely cut out squats and did some more leg press you could still make gains on the legs. But from a functionality standpoint its not a great idea to use as a replacement. Squats are a primal pattern that should always be in our programming to a certain degree. You don't necessarily need to be burying 4 plates, but definitely working through a full range of motion with some lighter weight might be ideal. 

A belt squat might be a good alternative. Definitely helps with low back issues but even for the knees, you can play with how you sit your hips back easier.


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## dk8594 (Nov 24, 2021)

….


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## dk8594 (Nov 24, 2021)

For OP… John Meadows on legs without squats


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## dirtys1x (Nov 24, 2021)

Seeker said:


> For people to say squats don't build solid leg size and muscle just leads me to believe these people don't know a damn thing  about the exercise and its mechanics, functions and capabilities. My quads, as i know yours, and most people I know who
> 
> Interesting comments from a poster above saying squats don't build muscle. Being that you, I,  and countless others, many that i personally know have built impressive legs from mostly squats.


I don’t think anyone directly said squats don’t build muscle. They’re absolutely one of the best exercises to build leg mass. They’re not 100 percent needed. There are plenty of guys who build great legs without squats and thinking that an exercise is absolutely necessary to build big legs is kind of a weird statement to make.

Note: I am a squatter. It is not painful for me and I squat twice weekly. However if squatting is tough on your knees, especially for the older dudes here… it’s not necessary. Why would it be?


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## Seeker (Nov 24, 2021)

dirtys1x said:


> I don’t think anyone directly said squats don’t build muscle. They’re absolutely one of the best exercises to build leg mass. They’re not 100 percent needed. There are plenty of guys who build great legs without squats and thinking that an exercise is absolutely necessary to build big legs is kind of a weird statement to make.
> 
> Note: I am a squatter. It is not painful for me and I squat twice weekly. However if squatting is tough on your knees, especially for the older dudes here… it’s not necessary. Why would it be?


Where did I say you can't build quads without squats?  In any of my posts here i never made that reference.  What i have said is i am a big advocate for squats in quad development. 

Yes, it's  been said in this thread by another poster   squats are only for strength. Which is absolutely ridiculous.


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## BrotherIron (Nov 24, 2021)

dk8594 said:


> For OP… John Meadows on legs without squats


Do realize though that John built his legs with squats and other movements. He did not remove that lift from his regimen. There is plenty of vids of him training Squats with Dave Tate.


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## wotmeworry (Nov 25, 2021)

Uncle manny said:


> Lots of great feedback above! Sounds like you're knees are pretty beat so I'll offer you a different piece of advice that most of us men are reluctant to consider.... get them checked out to figure out what's the real deal. I'm suggesting so you could possibly adjust your stance/barbell properly or even do some Pt.
> 
> If you completely cut out squats and did some more leg press you could still make gains on the legs. But from a functionality standpoint its not a great idea to use as a replacement. Squats are a primal pattern that should always be in our programming to a certain degree. You don't necessarily need to be burying 4 plates, but definitely working through a full range of motion with some lighter weight might be ideal.
> 
> A belt squat might be a good alternative. Definitely helps with low back issues but even for the knees, you can play with how you sit your hips back easier.


+1 for belt squats. 
I can lift more going to the same depth (so more load on legs), and agree with you about being able to lean back etc for comfort.  Next to nil risk from going closer to failure too. ... and nice not feeling the niggles in the lower back.


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## CJ (Nov 25, 2021)

Belt Squats rock!!!


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## Seeker (Nov 25, 2021)

We have a Rhino Belt Squat Machine.  Its a great machine


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## BrotherIron (Nov 25, 2021)

Seeker said:


> We have a Rhino Belt Squat Machine.  Its a great machine


That's great for many things. You can also wear it and walk. It's great for hips and low back health.


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## dirtys1x (Nov 25, 2021)

Seeker said:


> Where did I say you can't build quads without squats?  In any of my posts here i never made that reference.  What i have said is i am a big advocate for squats in quad development.
> 
> Yes, it's  been said in this thread by another poster   squats are only for strength. Which is absolutely ridiculous.


I think you misread my post.

You said, others said, squats don’t build muscle and that you think it’s stupid. While I agree, I don’t think anyone really said that directly.


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## Skullcrusher (Nov 25, 2021)

High rep db split squats or db bulgarian split squats.

Trap bar deadlift as alternative to leg press for those who have home gym with no leg press.

I feel high rep leg extensions better than any other exercise for quads. Currently at 135 lbs x 25 reps.

I guess it depends on how screwed up your knees are and what they can handle.


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## dirtys1x (Nov 25, 2021)

Seeker said:


> Where did I say you can't build quads without squats?  In any of my posts here i never made that reference.  What i have said is i am a big advocate for squats in quad development.
> 
> Yes, it's  been said in this thread by another poster   squats are only for strength. Which is absolutely ridiculous.


Sorry just re read. I misunderstood you.


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## dk8594 (Nov 25, 2021)

….


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## Adrenolin (Nov 25, 2021)

Squats and Front Squats with both high bar/narrow stance squats as well as low bar/wide stance squats. Leg press was always an ego lift


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## FlyingPapaya (Nov 25, 2021)

Skwaaaaaats


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## dirtys1x (Nov 25, 2021)

FlyingPapaya said:


> Skwaaaaaats


Piss off paps


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## FlyingPapaya (Nov 25, 2021)

dirtys1x said:


> Piss off paps


Naaaaah


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## dirtys1x (Nov 25, 2021)

FlyingPapaya said:


> Naaaaah


Ok papa


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## CJ (Nov 25, 2021)

This is the equipment I use for squatting. When you use the higher shoulder pad and are facing in, it feels like the most perfectly locked in high bar squat ever. And it's pure output, no need to worry as much about stability, you squat until your legs actually give out. 

Face the other way with your back against the pad, it's a hack squat, quads screaming in pain. 

It's awesome!!!! 🥰🥰🥰 




Oh, and I have no issues whatsoever with barbell squatting, i just simply feel this machine more in my quads and I can push harder more safely.


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## BRICKS (Nov 26, 2021)

I've said this before on this board.  If quad hypertrophy is your goal, there are better exercises to this end than back squats.


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## Bro Bundy (Nov 26, 2021)

anyone else have a painful time sitting to shit after legs


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## dk8594 (Dec 12, 2021)

Something else for op to consider

Credit to @Joliver for the write up





__





						Box Squatting
					

Squatting is the most important thing you can do with your life.  You developed a unified theory of gravity because you studied harder under the longer lasting light bulb you invented while driving your Ferrari cross country to a perfect 10 coed beach you own to perform open heart surgery, but...



					www.ugbodybuilding.com


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## Fvckinashman (Dec 12, 2021)

Box squats are even more subpar for hypertrophy. Tate means well, but Tate doesn't know much about bodybuilding and plenty about powerlifting.


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## Yano (Dec 12, 2021)

I'm a squatter , Love em. I think there are two ways to squat that not many consider because with out a coach or trainer it's an automatic movement. One type of squatter uses his legs , wait we all use our legs ,, not really. Some folks are almost all legs they drive with their quads all the way to the top. Yano , every one does that .... not so much. Others of us drive our "legs into the ground" and push using our hips and ass to hinge and drive forward and that is a huge assistance so the quads take a bit less work.
 Another thing I think to consider is some ones feet when squatting , toes straight you get more legs , feet on a slight angle you can activate glutes and at least in my opinion more of your posterior chain. Not just the position but how they distribute the weight on the foot needs to be taken into consideration as well, are you out more on the ball of your foot causing your knee to be more out over your toes putting more stress on the knee , or are you some one that drives from the middle of their foot applying more linear force in a straight line with your joints stacked properly.
    I'm no expert mind you but I think squats could be just as beneficial to hypertrophy work as a hack it would just depend on form and execution much more.


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## CJ (Dec 12, 2021)

__





						Barbell Forces: Levers, Moments, and Torque | Barbell Medicine
					

By Jordan Feigenbaum MS, CSCS, HFS, USAW Club Coach DFM Director of Strength and Conditioning This article is all about force and it’s relationship to the body during a squat. While you might not ever think about what kinds of forces are going on when you squat (or should be squatting)...




					www.barbellmedicine.com


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## Fvckinashman (Dec 12, 2021)

I barbell squatted for years... YEARS.... as an athlete it was a must. It was embedded in my head as the king of all lifts, and I acted as such about them.

It took a monumental mental effort to stop squatting, but once I did and focused on these movements:

1. Hack Squats
2. Leg Press
3. Pendulum Squat
4. Leg Extension
5. Sissy Squats

My leg development exploded, and the same goes for my hypertrophy clients and gym members (who I convinced to trust me and squat less)

It also helps that I am 6'2" with very long femurs. I am built for speed, and I was fucking fast when I played sports. Squats were my nemesis as my max effort lifts were not what I wanted, but I could rep the fuck out of heavier weights.

I did a seminar in 2011 in Texas where I spoke about strongman training for rugby, and one of the speakers was Jack Reape. His topic was programming for powerlifting. His one phrase still stands out to me to this day, and in 2011 I didn't believe it... but I did in 2020.

"the first compound lift to go as you get older is the squat, but you can deadlift until you die"

I thought that was bullshit, but he was right. The spinal load, knees, hips, limitations from your back, etc. make this an exercise you do not need for training if your goals lie with bodybuilding, longevity, or just looking good naked.

Even athletes.... I know a LOT of college strength coaches who rely on machines like the Rogers Squat Pro, power squat machines, and other athletic development tools because they save wear and tear on the athlete, get them stronger, and helps them on the field.

The barbell back squat has been romanticized to the point of god-like status when it is just another tool in the box to use, and for some it may be like using a hammer to fix a burnt out light bulb.


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## The Phoenix (Dec 12, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


liked the article.  as an engineer, i totally understand how those forces work and the leverage the body uses for each form of squat.


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## Fvckinashman (Dec 12, 2021)

The Phoenix said:


> liked the article.  as an engineer, i totally understand how those forces work and the leverage the body uses for each form of squat.


It is a great article, but even with all that knowledge of lever arms and forces... the squat is never a NEED for a good hypertrophy-based program


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## CJ (Dec 12, 2021)

Fvckinashman said:


> It is a great article, but even with all that knowledge of lever arms and forces... the squat is never a NEED for a good hypertrophy-based program


100% agree


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## Test_subject (Dec 12, 2021)

Fvckinashman said:


> It is a great article, but even with all that knowledge of lever arms and forces... the squat is never a NEED for a good hypertrophy-based program


Back squats are great for overall leg development, but they’re completely replaceable and extremely high impact.

I front squat every week, but I only back squat maybe twice a month at most, mostly just to maintain my ankle mobility. I usually replace back squats with the hack squat machine or leg presses, depending on what I’m feeling that day.  Slow tempo reps with full ROM on the hack squat are deadly.

My back is much happier and my leg development has actually gotten better since I stopped doing them every week.


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## wotmeworry (Dec 12, 2021)

A long torso limits my back squat capability.  I put too much load on my lower back to hit my quads/glutes enough.  SSB squats helped a lot (I kept the load forward and stayed way more upright ... without the flexibility challenge of front squats).  

Now I belt squat and sissy squat (mostly in the hack machine with feet well in front of the platform, I can  load weight and measure progress better than bodyweight sissy squats).  No spinal impact with belt squats, and minimal with hack machine sissy squats.  With belt squats I can tap the weight on the ground to ensure a below-parallel depth every rep.

I find something missing without the heavy compound load on the glutes/quads.  With belt squats I can go heavy (for me) and get much more volume than I ever could with back squats.  My legs have improved too.  I expect to e able to keep doing this for years (knees being the next limiter).

For glutes I also do hip extensions using the leg extension machine (reverse direction, pad behind knees).  Probably the hardest exercise in my programme, really toasts my glutes.


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## Jonjon (Dec 12, 2021)

Leg press is my favorite. I don’t attempt to squat anymore. I’m happy with my quads. Need to start focusing on hamstrings though because they’re getting disproportioned


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## MrBafner (Dec 12, 2021)

Depends how you train and what you're training for.

Endurance .. train like a Crossfitter ... they're always doing squats, front squats, air squats, kb squats, pistol squats .. all kinds of squats .. yet, no big legs to be seen. They're always trying for 1rm.

Bodybuilder .. train for shape using leg curls, leg extensions, leg presses of all kinds, hack squats, some do traditional squats / front squats and some don't squat at all. Many of the really huge bodybuilders use big weights on the hack squat, pendulum squat or other machine instead of actually using the bar by itself so they don't damage their knees / hips while walking in and out.

Powerlifter .. they believe in big arse heavy squats and sure, it works for them .. they also have squat racks with a release so they don't have to move once the weight is on their shoulders / traps.


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## FinalOpus (Jan 5, 2022)

There are unexpected reasons for pain during squats. One reason is weak glutes. Another reason is tight quads. Bodybuilders often don’t work the gluteus medius, and rarely do exercises that focus specifically on gluteus stability, flexibility and strength. We are known for large muscle compound movements but not as much for smaller muscle movements. Stronger gluteus medius along with greater control and balance will reduce knee pain. I went to physical therapy for knee pain and was told to train these muscles and it worked for me it alleviated the pain. It is not intuitive how knee pain is connected to the gluteus and frankly I am not 100% aware of the pathway. I understand that muscles are connected however and tightness in one area can create pain in another. Also the common stretches for legs are for hamstrings but we often don’t stretch our quads as much. I find that when my quads are sore from training I experience it as knee pain. However my knees aren’t hurting, that’s just how the pain signal is experienced in the brain. 

Having focused more on flexibility and control especially of my hips and gluteus, I have gained greater control over my squat and have returned to squatting after many years away from the movement. Now it is not central to my training but just one exercise. I used to repeat the main powerlifting compound movements three times per week for several years which amounted in various pains and limping and not much in the way of gains. When I took a bodybuilding approach to all the muscles and not just a couple lifts however I felt much healthier stronger and pain free. In my case all that squatting did was create over use injuries.


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## CJ (Jan 9, 2022)




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## The Phoenix (Jan 9, 2022)

MrBafner said:


> Depends how you train and what you're training for.
> 
> Endurance .. train like a Crossfitter ... they're always doing squats, front squats, air squats, kb squats, pistol squats .. all kinds of squats .. yet, no big legs to be seen. They're always trying for 1rm.
> 
> ...



Excellent breakdown and quite accurate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Test_subject (Jan 9, 2022)

I feel like the “you have to squat, pussy” Nazis are just trying to be tough guys and regurgitating what other people have told them.

Squats are great for overall leg development, but unless you’re using a super-close stance they don’t target quads like leg presses with a low and close stance do.

Now the caveat to that statement is “if you use a full range of motion on the leg press”. If you ego-lift 1000lbs with a 2” ROM and do leg press knee-bends, they’re not going to do anything for you.


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 9, 2022)

From a bodybuilding perspective, that makes total sense

Personally I train for strength, hypertrophy, and athleticism so I incorporate all variations of squats (box squat, high bar, low bar, A2G, safety squat bar) 

My workouts are fairly typical 1-2 compound movements at beginning of workout followed by accessories to target the individual muscles more


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## Test_subject (Jan 9, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> From a bodybuilding perspective, that makes total sense
> 
> Personally I train for strength, hypertrophy, and athleticism so I incorporate all variations of squats (box squat, high bar, low bar, A2G, safety squat bar)
> 
> My workouts are fairly typical 1-2 compound movements at beginning of workout followed by accessories to target the individual muscles more


If you’re training for strength and athleticism, squats are a no-brainer over leg presses.  I’d never suggest that a strength athlete not program squats unless they were recovering from an injury that compromised their ability to do them.

For pure bodybuilding, though?  Not necessary.


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 9, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> If you’re training for strength and athleticism, squats are a no-brainer over leg presses.  I’d never suggest that a strength athlete not program squats unless they were recovering from an injury that compromised their ability to do them.
> 
> For pure bodybuilding, though?  Not necessary.


For strictly bodybuilding, compound movements don't merit the results you'd be seeking

Shoulder press, Barbell rows and Dumbbell bench are about the only ones mainly just for density


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## RiR0 (Jan 9, 2022)

I don’t do any barbell squats but I do squat movements, hack squats, belt squats, machine squats, plate loaded squat machine etc. these are better exercises for me. I can focus on isolating my quads more and take each movement beyond failure safely without having trust a spotter. 
No, barbell are not necessary at all to build big legs.  Barbells aren’t needed to build big muscles or a good physique period. I haven’t touched a barbell in years. The majority of my leg size came after I dropped barbell squats. 
For me a barbell squat was a shit movement for quad development. No one exercise is necessary. If you from leg pressing 2plates per side for 20 reps to leg pressing 5 to 10 plates per side for 20-30 reps then you will absolutely have a much larger pair of legs. The only time a free weight squat is necessary is if it’s sports specific. 
I’ve got a bad lower back, so I don’t want a lot of weight compressing my spine.


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## RiR0 (Jan 9, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> For strictly bodybuilding, compound movements don't merit the results you'd be seeking
> 
> Shoulder press, Barbell rows and Dumbbell bench are about the only ones mainly just for density


What is special about those specific exercises that build “density”? If I stick to lateral raises for shoulders I won’t build dense shoulders? Even if I’m doing 50-60lbs of 15-20 reps going beyond failure? I can’t build a dense back doing heavy t bar rows and pull downs?


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 9, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> What is special about those specific exercises that build “density”? If I stick to lateral raises for shoulders I won’t build dense shoulders? Even if I’m doing 50-60lbs of 15-20 reps going beyond failure? I can’t build a dense back doing heavy t bar rows and pull downs?


Lat pulldowns are better


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## RiR0 (Jan 9, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> Lat pulldowns are better


Why? Also you didn’t answer a single question that was asked. I’m always willing to learn something new. Can you explain the why behind everything you said?
I wasn’t asking if a lat pulldown was better than t bar row. But since you said they are explain to me why?


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 9, 2022)

Pulldowns are likely better for more range of motion and more recruitment of muscle fibers in the lats and biceps

But it's personal preference


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## RiR0 (Jan 9, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> Pulldowns are likely better for more range of motion and more recruitment of muscle fibers in the lats and biceps
> 
> But it's personal preference


You do lat pulldowns to engage your biceps? Is there a difference in full range of motion and active range of motion? Does every movement need to be full range of motion ti be more effective? Also can you answer any of the original questions I asked? Because I feel like at this point you’re spouting things off without actually knowing what you’re talking about. Reminds me of Alex Kikel


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## GymRat79 (Jan 10, 2022)

Going slow as Fuck on the eccentric part of a leg press with higher reps and lower weight will create much more development than heavy squats with shit form. I’ll guarantee if you do 30 reps this way with leg press only lifting 70% of your max you will get much better gains than a guy lifting at 90 % with only 10 shitty reps of squats.


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

GymRat79 said:


> Going slow as Fuck on the eccentric part of a leg press with higher reps and lower weight will create much more development than heavy squats with shit form. I’ll guarantee if you do 30 reps this way with leg press only lifting 70% of your max you will get much better gains than a guy lifting at 90 % with only 10 shitty reps of squats.


I like high rep widow makers on leg press. Use a weight that i can normally do about 15-20 reps with and stay under it until I get 30-50. When I get 50 I add 25 per side. 2-3 second controlled negatives with a pause at the bottom.


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## GymRat79 (Jan 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I like high rep widow makers on leg press. Use a weight that i can normally do about 15-20 reps with and stay under it until I get 30-50. When I get 50 I add 25 per side. 2-3 second controlled negatives with a pause at the bottom.


Been doing something similar this off-season. Working well!


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

GymRat79 said:


> Been doing something similar this off-season. Working well!


I think a lot of people don’t realize how much torture legs really need to grow or how hard you can really train them and how much torture legs can really handle.
I like the phrase “your legs will be as big as your pain threshold”


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## GymRat79 (Jan 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I think a lot of people don’t realize how much torture legs really need to grow or how hard you can really train them and how much torture legs can really handle.
> I like the phrase “your legs will be as big as your pain threshold”


And training your mind to tolerate pain is extremely important on leg days.


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## zedz (Jan 10, 2022)

Here's my two cents. I've been in my first bulk since September, and so I've been primarily focused on strength gains. That obviously means more weight and less reps. I've been working out four and a half years and I've never felt joint pain til now. The reason I go to the gym regularly is for my mental health and aesthetics. Since experiencing this joint pain, I've been going 4 days a week rather than my usual 6. I've never enjoyed squats, and now heavy squats have not only compromised my physical health, but more importantly, my mental health. Therefore, I've replaced the squat with the leg press for the time being. That's not to say I don't ever squat, I just worked in lighter front squats instead. They are easier on my hips, I feel them more in my quads (I am glute/ham dominant) and I actually have fun doing them. I don't go to the gym to hate my life. Ergo, don't do movements that cause you pain or that you don't enjoy doing. The gym should be the highlight of your day, and you want to enjoy it long-term, injury free.


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## Seeker (Jan 10, 2022)

Stfu and squat. Holy shit a board full of pansies


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## wallyd (Jan 10, 2022)

I feel I just get more out of leg presses. I give them hell & the burn & fatigue is crazy. I always pre-exhaust before jumping on the leg press. It’s usually the last thing I do for legs.


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## BrotherIron (Jan 10, 2022)

MrBafner said:


> Powerlifter .. they believe in big arse heavy squats and sure, it works for them .. they also have squat racks with a release so they don't have to move once the weight is on their shoulders / traps.



The "rack" is called a monolift.


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

Seeker said:


> Stfu and squat. Holy shit a board full of pansies


Do you get some kind of special award for squatting over other leg movements? I don’t give a shit about being “hardcore” or if somebody approves of my exercise selection. I care about the end result. Idk maybe you go into the gym and care about what people think or try to impress them, but my legs grew most and developed more when I gave up barbell squats. If I could go back I’d realize that I never needed to touch a barbell. Most of my size was built without going near one. If it’s most optimal for you awesome, but its dumb as fuck to say and cliche to say “shut and squat”.


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## Seeker (Jan 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Do you get some kind of special award for squatting over other leg movements? I don’t give a shit about being “hardcore” or if somebody approves of my exercise selection. I care about the end result. Idk maybe you go into the gym and care about what people think or try to impress them, but my legs grew most and developed more when I gave up barbell squats. If I could go back I’d realize that I never needed to touch a barbell. Most of my size was built without going near one. If it’s most optimal for you awesome, but its dumb as fuck to say and cliche to say “shut and squat”.




You are obviously new here and have the sensitivity of a little girl.  You don't  know me and YOU definitely dont know the history of this board. So take your hurt feelings go cry in a corner.
There was a time when this board had some thick skin.


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

Seeker said:


> You are obviously new here and have the sensitivity of a little girl.  You don't me and YOU definitely dont know the history of this board. So take your hurt feelings go cry in a corner.
> There was a time when this board had some thick skin.


Oh did you get triggered? Stfu and go squat or something. You don’t know me either and I don’t give a shit who you are.
I just call out stupid fucking shit from dumb mother fuckers


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## Seeker (Jan 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Oh did you get triggered? Stfu and go squat or something. You don’t know me either and I don’t give a shit who you are.
> I just call out stupid fucking shit from dumb mother fuckers



Triggered? Lol ok bye now


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

Seeker said:


> Triggered? Lol ok bye now


You still talking?


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## The Phoenix (Jan 10, 2022)

At least we know the gear is  Tempers flaring like a BBQ  & sh!t. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

The Phoenix said:


> At least we know the gear is  Tempers flaring like a BBQ  & sh!t.


I don’t need an hplc test I just need to hop on a forum.


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## CJ (Jan 10, 2022)

I know Squats can be a passionate topic, but we can have discussions without personal insults guys. 

Thank you gentlemen!!!


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## mugzy (Jan 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Oh did you get triggered? Stfu and go squat or something. You don’t know me either and I don’t give a shit who you are.
> I just call out stupid fucking shit from dumb mother fuckers


Please refrain from the disrespectful name calling of @Seeker.


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## FlyingPapaya (Jan 10, 2022)

Skwaaaaaats


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## RiR0 (Jan 10, 2022)

mugzy said:


> Please refrain from the disrespectful name calling of @Seeker


I wasn’t trying to violate the rules of the board. I called out one individual he literally insulted half the posters on this thread with his first post.


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## CJ (Jan 12, 2022)

Because I'm a pot stirrer 😏.....


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

CJ275 said:


> Because I'm a pot stirrer 😏.....
> 
> View attachment 17260


It’s like the recent post Phil Viz made about his chest growing most when switched to using all machines.
Edit: also I personally think barbell squats are a shitty exercise for quad development.


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## CJ (Jan 12, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> It’s like the recent post Phil Viz made about his chest growing most when switched to using all machines.
> Edit: also I personally think barbell squats are a shitty exercise for quad development.


I'm still searching for JP's 2 way program. Is It in his paid member's area only? I can't seem to find it.


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

CJ275 said:


> I'm still searching for JP's 2 way program. Is It in his paid member's area only? I can't seem to find it.


It’s in his Ebook. Growth Principles by Jordan Peters.


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## The Phoenix (Jan 12, 2022)

CJ said:


> Because I'm a pot stirrer 😏.....
> 
> View attachment 17260


Is that Jordan Peters?

Edit - It is, I saw his Youtube page, same name.  Was watching him on big man;  He has a huge gut.  Bigger than Phil Heath's.


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

The Phoenix said:


> Is that Jordan Peters?


Yes it is.


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

CJ said:


> I'm still searching for JP's 2 way program. Is It in his paid member's area only? I can't seem to find it.


I found this one

*link removed by CJ


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

*link removed by CJ


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## CJ (Jan 12, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> I found this one
> 
> *link removed


That's it, I read it last night.


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

CJ said:


> That's it, I read it last night.


Gotcha well in case anyone else is interested


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> Gotcha well in case anyone else is interested


Awesome I’m sure Jordan Peters loves it when people steal his work.

For anybody who actually wants to pay for it


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Awesome I’m sure Jordan Peters loves it when people steal his work.
> 
> For anybody who actually wants to pay for it


Type in the name of the book, it's the first option on Google

I stole nothing

But I'll write him a nice letter apologizing for my ability to use google


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

GhostPenguin said:


> Type in the name of the book, it's the first option on Google
> 
> I stole nothing


Anyone who down loads that is stealing and you’re the one who is promoting the theft. I know I like to be paid for my work. 
The first thing that popped up for me is Jordan Peters site 🤔 wonder why


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Anyone who down loads that is stealing and you’re the one who is promoting the theft. I know I like to be paid for my work.
> The first thing that popped up for me is Jordan Peters site 🤔 wonder why


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## RiR0 (Jan 12, 2022)

i believe you. Because of how google works it means you probably steal a lot of peoples work.


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## GhostPenguin (Jan 12, 2022)

The programs I actually run, I do buy believe it or not


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## CJ (Jan 12, 2022)

Ok guys, points were made. This thread has already caused a bunch of needless drama, so I'm asking if we can just let it go please.

Im going to go ahead and delete those links. People know where to find it if they want it, whichever way they choose.


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## white ape (Mar 31, 2022)

So what would be a full leg day then if squats were not involved? what exercises? I don't want no "do quads one day, Hammies and glutes two days later" type response please. An entire lower body in one day type of deal.


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## Test_subject (Mar 31, 2022)

white ape said:


> So what would be a full leg day then if squats were not involved? what exercises? I don't want no "do quads one day, Hammies and glutes two days later" type response please. An entire lower body in one day type of deal.


Here’s an example of what I typically do  for a leg day when I’m not programming squats:

Leg Extensions - 2 sets, 15-20 reps
_These are nice and light. Just to warm up the quads_

Leg Press -  4-5 sets, 8-12 rep range

RDL - 4 sets, 6-10 rep range 

Hack Squat - 3 sets in 10-15 rep range

Leg curls or GHR - 3 sets, last set AMRAP

Standing calf raises - 3 sets, all AMRAP


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## white ape (Mar 31, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> Here’s an example of what I typically do  for a leg day when I’m not programming squats:
> 
> Leg Extensions - 2 sets, 15-20 reps
> _These are nice and light. Just to warm up the quads_
> ...


That's pretty much what I do minus the hack squat. Will add in hack squat. Thanks!


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## Test_subject (Mar 31, 2022)

white ape said:


> That's pretty much what I do minus the hack squat. Will add in hack squat. Thanks!


Hack squats are deadly if you go slow and low through the whole range of motion.  It doesn’t take much weight to make your quads burn like fire.


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## white ape (Mar 31, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> Hack squats are deadly if you go slow and low through the whole range of motion.  It doesn’t take much weight to make your quads burn like fire.


So not much glute activation here? What would you add for that? Not trying to do glutes seperatly


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## Test_subject (Mar 31, 2022)

white ape said:


> So not much glute activation here? What would you add for that? Not trying to do glutes seperatly


If you want a bit more glute activation on top of the RDLs, you could always swap the leg curl/GHRs out for weighted hyperextensions or something like that.  They hit the glutes pretty hard on top of hammies.  Alternatively, you can widen your stance a bit on either the leg presses or hack squats.

I don’t do any direct glute training because my ass gets huge if I do.  This is just what I’d typically do. It’s by no means an exhaustive blueprint.


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## white ape (Mar 31, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> If you want a bit more glute activation on top of the RDLs, you could always swap the leg curl/GHRs out for weighted hyperextensions or something like that.  They hit the glutes pretty hard on top of hammies.
> 
> I don’t do any direct glute training because my ass gets huge if I do.  Your mileage will probably vary.  This is just what I’d typically do. It’s by no means an exhaustive blueprint.


I got a small old man booty but my wife calls me thunder thighs..... Skinny jeans look weird. Can barely get them up the legs but in the back in looks like I took a giant shit because I got no ass to fill it out.


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## RiR0 (Mar 31, 2022)

white ape said:


> I got a small old man booty but my wife calls me thunder thighs..... Skinny jeans look weird. Can barely get them up the legs but in the back in looks like I took a giant shit because I got no ass to fill it out.


Gotta start doing glute kick backs and hip thrusts.  Get as strong as possible within the 15-30rep range and you’ll get an ass that’ll be the envy of all your wife’s friends


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## white ape (Apr 1, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Gotta start doing glute kick backs and hip thrusts.  Get as strong as possible within the 15-30rep range and you’ll get an ass that’ll be the envy of all your wife’s friends


hell yeah. Thanks!


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## CJ (Apr 1, 2022)

white ape said:


> I got a small old man booty but my wife calls me thunder thighs..... Skinny jeans look weird. Can barely get them up the legs but in the back in looks like I took a giant shit because I got no ass to fill it out.


Bret Contreras is the guy to check out for glute specific training. That's his niche


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## white ape (Apr 1, 2022)

CJ said:


> Bret Contreras is the guy to check out for glute specific training. That's his niche


Yeah. Seen a lot of his stuff. He is the "glute guy"


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## RiR0 (Apr 1, 2022)

CJ said:


> Bret Contreras is the guy to check out for glute specific training. That's his niche


Paul Carter has some really good as well about glute training


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## Badleroybrown (Apr 1, 2022)

CJ said:


> That's it, I read it last night.


Paid members section?? Do tell


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## CJ (Apr 1, 2022)

Badleroybrown said:


> Paid members section?? Do tell


You're a horrible person 🤐


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## Methyl mike (Apr 1, 2022)

white ape said:


> So not much glute activation here? What would you add for that? Not trying to do glutes seperatly


Personally I do Dorians leg workout, it covers all bases and regarding hack squats the whole reason for them is that you get glute activation to help overload quads. Extensions pre exhaust quads, leg presses bring hams adductors little bit of hips glutes to overload quads, hack squats bring glutes jn the mix much moreso to both develop glutes also overload quads. 

I did not realize the glute hack connection until recently btw. I always saw them as a quad dominant movement but not so much. I drive with my glutes and my quads end up failing first doing them last in the routine (for quads.)


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## Methyl mike (Apr 1, 2022)

zedz said:


> Here's my two cents. I've been in my first bulk since September, and so I've been primarily focused on strength gains. That obviously means more weight and less reps. I've been working out four and a half years and I've never felt joint pain til now. The reason I go to the gym regularly is for my mental health and aesthetics. Since experiencing this joint pain, I've been going 4 days a week rather than my usual 6. I've never enjoyed squats, and now heavy squats have not only compromised my physical health, but more importantly, my mental health. Therefore, I've replaced the squat with the leg press for the time being. That's not to say I don't ever squat, I just worked in lighter front squats instead. They are easier on my hips, I feel them more in my quads (I am glute/ham dominant) and I actually have fun doing them. I don't go to the gym to hate my life. Ergo, don't do movements that cause you pain or that you don't enjoy doing. The gym should be the highlight of your day, and you want to enjoy it long-term, injury free.


I doubt you are warming up properly. I've been at this 23 years and no joint pain ever. Tennis elbow and golfers elbow yeah but that's it. Food for thought.


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## white ape (Apr 1, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Personally I do Dorians leg workout, it covers all bases and regarding hack squats the whole reason for them is that you get glute activation to help overload quads. Extensions pre exhaust quads, leg presses bring hams adductors little bit of hips glutes to overload quads, hack squats bring glutes jn the mix much moreso to both develop glutes also overload quads.
> 
> I did not realize the glute hack connection until recently btw. I always saw them as a quad dominant movement but not so much. I drive with my glutes and my quads end up failing first doing them last in the routine (for quads.)


So the order of moments is interesting. What I typically do is:
Squat
Leg press
Ham curl
leg extension
Stiff leg deads
Calves

In the specific order. Thoughts?


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## RiR0 (Apr 1, 2022)

white ape said:


> So the order of moments is interesting. What I typically do is:
> Squat
> Leg press
> Ham curl
> ...


Id do a leg curl first. 

So 
lying leg curl 
Squat
Single leg press
Leg extensions 
Stiff leg 
Adductor


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## Methyl mike (Apr 1, 2022)

white ape said:


> So the order of moments is interesting. What I typically do is:
> Squat
> Leg press
> Ham curl
> ...


Squats and leg press are almost identical movements, doing both in a workout is overlap and inefficient. Also squatting first is not ideal because you will get more out of them if fully pumped. Your knees especially need the blood to keep them lubed up, that's how I have avoided knee pain all these years. At minimum start with something else and do not do both in a single workout pick one or the other. 

Here are my thoughts- squats will build outer thigh sweep more effective than anything else. I guess it's because squatting is an actual useful movement, It recruits the quads to the max all heads. I tend to find leg extensions develop my quads more around the tear drop and rectus femoris. Only at the peak contracted state is the vastus lateralis engaged, or that's how it seems anyway. 

Downside to squats is that you cannot take your quads to or even close to failure usually. Something else will give first, glutes hips hams lower back lungs willpower you name it. Your quads are fucking resilient, you have to attack them with unique intensity. 

So I train them starting with quad specific leg extensions first. Well actually first I ride the stationary bike 5 minutes to get a good pump going, then I do a stretch routine that goes glutes hips groin ham calf quad and rectus femoris specific. I usually also do prayer stretches for back (you crawl forward with fingertips it's great) so once warmed up I do a few light supersets lyjng leg curl and leg extension back and forth. I just want to feel the muscles squeeze and release squeeze release get more blood in..

For leg extensions you have to work up to max poundage, max for maybe 8-10 reps and then either do a drop set or a couple forced reps. Watch blood and guts, Dorian is screaming at the end of his leg extensions. It must be this way if you want to really see improvement every week. 

Next I usually do leg press the idea is now youre hitting quads with ancillary muscles to help drive them to failure. If you are really about size at all costs work up over a few set to max weight for about 10 reps and do a drop set, it must be done exactly this way- get two helpers just recruit two people one on each side and at the end of your last rep each guy strips 2 plates off, your quads recover lightning fast so if your goal is size instruct or teach them to strip the plates OFF FAST. drop them to the ground, don't be careful etc. The idea is you are not going to rack the weight between drops, ideally you can keep your reps pumping when the weight is taken off. Only two weight drops required, so you do three back to back sets at once. Two plates a side for each drop. 

Now move to hack squats but with a twist, I want you to drive with your glutes not quads. Trust me, your glutes will be pretty fresh and keep the weight moving while your quads will actually fail first or the pain will make you quit. Two sets are all you need here. Make them count. 

Hamstrings start with lying or seated leg curls for midrange overload, then stiff leg deads finish with single leg curls one leg at a time for peak contracted. 

Calves standing and seated calf raises jn that order. 

A word on technique, subtle tweaks are what make all the difference. On leg extensions single leg curls or any peak contracted movement you want to briefly squeeze at the top of the rep, when the muscle is contracted. Mentally do it, every rep, just a split second. Thjs recruits more muscle fibers.

 For stretchjng movements like stiff leg deadlifts or say flyes for chest at the bottom of the rep when the muscle is stretched you want to bounce slightly to accentuate the stretch. Google "Myotatic Reflex" to get a solid idea what to do. This recruits more muscle fibers. 

FOr midrange like leg press squats etc keep the weight moving no pausing top or bottom and CONTROL THE NEGATIVE. Always slow controlled negative. 

sorry for the novel


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## The Phoenix (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Gotta start doing glute kick backs and hip thrusts. Get as strong as possible within the 15-30rep range and you’ll get an ass that’ll be the envy of all your wife’s friends



Good mornings and reverse hack squat will also help your lower back and glutes. 


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

The Phoenix said:


> Good mornings and reverse hack squat will also help your lower back and glutes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Reverse hack squat explain that one how does it feel? I've seen pro bodybuildes do them for years I was never sure why


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## The Phoenix (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Reverse hack squat explain that one how does it feel? I've seen pro bodybuildes do them for years I was never sure why



On the day I hit backsides, I do those with good mornings; the reverse hack hits low glutes-upper hamstrings while the good mornings hit the overall glutes & upper back. I typically superset them after laying leg curls and kick-backs, in that order- reverse hack then GM’s. 


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## RiR0 (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Reverse hack squat explain that one how does it feel? I've seen pro bodybuildes do them for years I was never sure why







Go to about 40seconds


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## notsoswoleCPA (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Go to about 40seconds


The hack squat at my gym actually is built to be used either way.  The reverse hack squat is called the super squat and I love doing those.  After pulling something in my knee for the umpteenth time doing barbell back squats, I think I am done with trying to lift heavy on them.  The sad thing is that I was in the warmup phase when I felt pain which was no different than what I have been doing for the past two months.


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## CJ (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Go to about 40seconds


Very similar to the Power Squat machine at my gym. Great piece of equipment.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Go to about 40seconds


Look at the belly on that dude ROFL 
Thanks for the video I will keep that in mind.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

notsoswoleCPA said:


> The hack squat at my gym actually is built to be used either way.  The reverse hack squat is called the super squat and I love doing those.  After pulling something in my knee for the umpteenth time doing barbell back squats, I think I am done with trying to lift heavy on them.  The sad thing is that I was in the warmup phase when I felt pain which was no different than what I have been doing for the past two months.


What do you do for warmup and stretching (pre workout stretching)???


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

The Phoenix said:


> On the day I hit backsides, I do those with good mornings; the reverse hack hits low glutes-upper hamstrings while the good mornings hit the overall glutes & upper back. I typically superset them after laying leg curls and kick-backs, in that order- reverse hack then GM’s.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Did you say upper hamstrings? 🤔


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## TODAY (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Did you say upper hamstrings? 🤔


The midwestern region of my hamstrings is lagging. What exercise do I use to address this area?


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

TODAY said:


> The midwestern region of my hamstrings is lagging. What exercise do I use to address this area?


On your own on that one haha. Maybe TPs trainer knows! As much as he costs he better.


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## The Phoenix (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Did you say upper hamstrings?



The more glute 


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## The Phoenix (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> On your own on that one haha. Maybe TPs trainer knows! As much as he costs he better.



I took a break from trainer for s couple of months cos of surgery. Starting up again after tax day. I don’t think he charges too much ($170mo.) The poor guys don’t have consistency in their clientele. I had to take time off


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## notsoswoleCPA (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> What do you do for warmup and stretching (pre workout stretching)???


I start out at the house by getting in the deep squat position and holding it for as long as humanly possible.  I probably do that for at least 10 minutes before heading over to the gym which is literally at the entrance to my subdivision.  I then head into the studio and stack up some aerobic steps to continue stretching each leg individually followed by using the TRX trainer straps to further support going into a deeper squat position.  I have at least 20 minutes of pre-squatting routine before I start with just the bar on my back, squat, rest, add a plate on each side, squat, rest, add another plate on each side, squat, rest.

This past week, in the middle of my 135 pound warmup, something went very wrong in my left knee.  This was different though as I can put pressure on it, but if I do something like a stupid light leg extension, it hurt like a mofo.  I'm better today, but I've been down this road before and it has taken MONTHS to recover before.  Granted, I usually don't injure myself in the gym, it's usually outside the gym where the freak knee injuries happen.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

notsoswoleCPA said:


> I start out at the house by getting in the deep squat position and holding it for as long as humanly possible.  I probably do that for at least 10 minutes before heading over to the gym which is literally at the entrance to my subdivision.  I then head into the studio and stack up some aerobic steps to continue stretching each leg individually followed by using the TRX trainer straps to further support going into a deeper squat position.  I have at least 20 minutes of pre-squatting routine before I start with just the bar on my back, squat, rest, add a plate on each side, squat, rest, add another plate on each side, squat, rest.
> 
> This past week, in the middle of my 135 pound warmup, something went very wrong in my left knee.  This was different though as I can put pressure on it, but if I do something like a stupid light leg extension, it hurt like a mofo.  I'm better today, but I've been down this road before and it has taken MONTHS to recover before.  Granted, I usually don't injure myself in the gym, it's usually outside the gym where the freak knee injuries happen.


I see zero preworkout stretching. I recommend in the following order

Groin
Glute
Hip
Ham
Quad
Calf
Lower back

There is specific technique to some of the stretches, do some research. Hold each stretch at least 20 seconds but not more than 30. 

Hope that helps.


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## RiR0 (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> I see zero preworkout stretching. I recommend in the following order
> 
> Groin
> Glute
> ...


I wouldn’t do static stretching prior.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I wouldn’t do static stretching prior.


I warm up on the bike first. You've seen blood and guts yeah? I do the same stretches Dorian did before his leg workout. But he doesn't go through all of them. I do the full routine. They work very well trust me.


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## RiR0 (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> I warm up on the bike first. You've seen blood and guts yeah? I do the same stretches Dorian did before his leg workout. But he doesn't go through all of them. I do the full routine. They work very well trust me.


Static stretching prior will make you weaker in your lifts and cause a decrease in performance. 
It’s counterproductive.


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## BRICKS (Apr 2, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Personally I do Dorians leg workout, it covers all bases and regarding hack squats the whole reason for them is that you get glute activation to help overload quads. Extensions pre exhaust quads, leg presses bring hams adductors little bit of hips glutes to overload quads, hack squats bring glutes jn the mix much moreso to both develop glutes also overload quads.
> 
> I did not realize the glute hack connection until recently btw. I always saw them as a quad dominant movement but not so much. I drive with my glutes and my quads end up failing first doing them last in the routine (for quads.)


Depends how you do your hack squats (foot placement, depth, etc).  Any pressing movement can be quad dominant or involve the posterior chain more or less as you engage it.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 2, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Static stretching prior will make you weaker in your lifts and cause a decrease in performance.
> It’s counterproductive.


I disagree 100% and at my stage of development I do everything I can to fatigue my legs with lighter weight so irregardless. Actually fuck it, YOU are the expert Dorian and I will take our opinions elsewhere. That about make you happy or not enough?


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## RiR0 (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> I disagree 100% and at my stage of development I do everything I can to fatigue my legs with lighter weight so irregardless. Actually fuck it, YOU are the expert Dorian and I will take our opinions elsewhere. That about make you happy or not enough?


You and Dorian or whoever can disagree it doesn’t change the fact that it decreases performance.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> You and Dorian or whoever can disagree it doesn’t change the fact that it decreases performance.


I never claimed it did or it didn't so your point is moot


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

The Phoenix said:


> I took a break from trainer for s couple of months cos of surgery. Starting up again after tax day. I don’t think he charges too much ($170mo.) The poor guys don’t have consistency in their clientele. I had to take time off
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


All I will say is that he is _very_ well compensated for the knowledge that he shares with you.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> I never claimed it did or it didn't so your point is moot


Plus I am bigger than you so I win no matter what.


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Plus I am bigger than you so I win no matter what.


Bigger than who? Bigger than me? Psh keep dreaming pass the pipe share once in a while


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Bigger than who? Bigger than me? Psh keep dreaming pass the pipe share once in a while


You heard what I said yeah I'm bigger than you punk so what???


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> You heard what I said yeah I'm bigger than you punk so what???


Bitch just wait till I see you it's on sight straight up


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Methyl mike said:


> Bitch just wait till I see you it's on sight straight up


Simmer your skinny ass down and stop acting like a child


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## Test_subject (Apr 3, 2022)

What is even happening right now?


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## joetastic82 (Apr 3, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> What is even happening right now?


Looks like Mike and Mike are at it tough....


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## Send0 (Apr 3, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> What is even happening right now?


Shhhh, just let it happen. I have snacks, just kick back with me and watch the world burn for a second.


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## shackleford (Apr 3, 2022)

on the subject of pre workout stretching, how do you all feel about the Agile 8? I'm thinking I should start putting more effort into injury prevention.


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## The Phoenix (Apr 3, 2022)

joetastic82 said:


> Looks like Mike and Mike are at it tough....



The first rule of Fight Club….


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## FlyingPapaya (Apr 3, 2022)

Light dynamic stretches only prior workouts....


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Send0 said:


> Shhhh, just let it happen. I have snacks, just kick back with me and watch the world burn for a second.


You DO understand!


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## Methyl mike (Apr 3, 2022)

Test_subject said:


> What is even happening right now?


I won the day.


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## RiR0 (Apr 4, 2022)

shackleford said:


> on the subject of pre workout stretching, how do you all feel about the Agile 8? I'm thinking I should start putting more effort into injury prevention.


I looked it up. I think I need to start doing it.


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