# Kill my raloxifene gyno cycle.



## gymrat827

well yes, i have it.  Had it as a teen, made it way way worse when i was sr. in college and had no clue what i was doing with AAS. Time for raloxifene gyno treatment.

here it goes

mast p 200 1-4
mast e 700 1-12

TPP 200 1-4
tes E 250 1-12

caber .25mg M/W/F  1-14  (or 15/16)
stane 6.25mg ED     1-14 (or 15/16)
Ralox 45mg ED        1-14

pct
Nolva, 6wks  40/40/20/20/10/10
osta @ 20mg (sarm)

Im really hopeful that it will be pretty much gone by pct and the nolva will take care of the last bit and any rebound that may take place.  If its not gone by pct i may just continue on nolva long term.  Caber/ralox/stane will all be pharm grade....taking no chances here on bunk stuff

posting this input from others.


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## TheLupinator

No letro?..personally I hate letro but it's supposed to be good at shrinking gyno.. I ran ralox last year for some pubertal gyno I aggrevated during my first cycle just like you - 60mg/day for 4months...didn't notice much of a difference, maybe it was bunk, who knows.


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## Azog

Good luck GR! Just don't get your hopes up, brother. I don't wanna be a party pooper, but from my own experience and what I have read, these protocols don't often work terribly well on pubertal gyno. Still worth a shot though! I gave it a good year with such protocols....but eventually said **** it and got it knife'd out.


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## DocDePanda187123

SERMs like raloxifene and tamoxifen have been proven to be very effective at reversing gyno, even pubertal gyno. Taking raloxifene at 60mg/day for 10days and 30mg/day after that until gyno reverses is a very good treatment option. You don't want to keep the ralox at 60mg for much longer than 10days as it can lead to BDL (bone density loss). Tamoxifen can be ran at 40mg daily for 2wks and 20mg daily after that, again the drop in dosage is related to loss of bone density. A good option would be to supplement with vitamin D (2000-5000iu daily) and calcium to help manage and bone density issues. Hope this helps 

Edit* forgot to mention that tamoxifen has been shown to cure gyno in up to 76% of cases and ralox eve more. These cases can take months so don't get discouraged if you see no results after only a few weeks.


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## gymrat827

if i use letro....it would be post pct.  prolly 1.5mg ED, .25mg caber EOD.  that would my last, final attempt.

Im aware i may be on ralox/nolva for 6 months +


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## Azog

Docd187123 said:


> SERMs like raloxifene and tamoxifen have been proven to be very effective at reversing gyno, even pubertal gyno. Taking raloxifene at 60mg/day for 10days and 30mg/day after that until gyno reverses is a very good treatment option. You don't want to keep the ralox at 60mg for much longer than 10days as it can lead to BDL (bone density loss). Tamoxifen can be ran at 40mg daily for 2wks and 20mg daily after that, again the drop in dosage is related to loss of bone density. A good option would be to supplement with vitamin D (2000-5000iu daily) and calcium to help manage and bone density issues. Hope this helps
> 
> Edit* forgot to mention that tamoxifen has been shown to cure gyno in up to 76% of cases and ralox eve more. These cases can take months so don't get discouraged if you see no results after only a few weeks.



Mind posting the studies you have read? I have only seen a few floating around. Just curious .

Also, there is no "cure" for gyno. I don't want anyone to be misled. It is not a disease. It is just breast tissue, and everyone has it. You can shrink it back to a less noticeable size, but it will always be there and always have the potential to increase in size again. Even after excision, a small amount of tissue is left in order to prevent a collapse of the nipple structure. Meaning, even after surgery the potential for an increase in the size of the tissue is still there.


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## Seeker

Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late. 

Good luck though. I wish you the best


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## DocDePanda187123

Azog said:


> Mind posting the studies you have read? I have only seen a few floating around. Just curious .
> 
> Also, there is no "cure" for gyno. I don't want anyone to be misled. It is not a disease. It is just breast tissue, and everyone has it. You can shrink it back to a less noticeable size, but it will always be there and always have the potential to increase in size again. Even after excision, a small amount of tissue is left in order to prevent a collapse of the nipple structure. Meaning, even after surgery the potential for an increase in the size of the tissue is still there.



Of course brother. 



> Treatment of gynecomastia with tamoxifen: a double-blind crossover study.
> 
> AuthorsParker LN, et al. Show all Journal
> Metabolism. 1986 Aug;35(8):705-8.
> Affiliation
> Abstract
> Benign asymptomatic or painful enlargement of the male breast is a common problem, postulated to be due to an increased estrogen/testosterone ration or due to increased estrogenic or decreased androgenic stimulation via estrogen or androgen receptor interactions. Treatment at present consists of analgesic medication or surgery. However, treatment directed against the preponderance of estrogenic stimulation would seem to represent a more specific form of therapy. In the present double-blind crossover study, one-month courses of a placebo or the antiestrogen tamoxifen (10 mg given orally bid) were compared in random order. Seven of ten patients experienced a decrease in the size of their gynecomastia due to tamoxifen (P less than 0.005). Overall, the decrease for gynecomastia for the whole group was significant (P less than 0.01). There was no beneficial effect of placebo (P greater than 0.1). Additionally, all four patients with painful gynecomastia experienced symptomatic relief. There was no toxicity. The reduction of breast size was partial and may indicate the need for a longer course of therapy. A followup examination was performed in eight out of ten patients nine months to one year after discontinuing placebo and tamoxifen. There were no significant changes from the end of the initial study period except for one tamoxifen responder who developed a recurrence of breast tenderness after six months, and one nonresponder who demonstrated an increase in breast size and a new onset of tenderness after ten months. Therefore, antiestrogenic treatment with tamoxifen may represent a safe and effective mode of treatment for selected cases of cosmetically disturbing or painful gynecomastia.
> 
> PMID 3526085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3526085/




> [Influence of size and duration of gynecomastia on its response to treatment with tamoxifen].
> 
> AuthorsDevoto C E, et al. Show all Journal
> Rev Med Chil. 2007 Dec;135(12):1558-65. doi: /S0034-98872007001200009. Epub 2008 Feb 13. Article in Spanish.
> Affiliation
> Sección Endocrinología, Servicio de Medicina, Hospital Clínico San Borja Arriarán, Santiago, Chile. edevoto@vtr.net
> Abstract
> BACKGROUND: Gynecomastia is treated when it is painful, there are psychosocial repercussions or it does not revert in less than two years. It is treated with the antiestrogenic drug tamoxifen, but there are doubts about its effectiveness in high volume gynecomastias or in those lasting more than two years.
> 
> AIM: To assess the effectiveness and safety of tamoxifen for gynecomastia and the influence of its volume and duration on the response to treatment.
> 
> PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty three patients with gynecomastia, aged 12 to 62 years, were studied. Twenty seven patients had a pubertal physiological gynecomastia, in eight it was caused by medications, in four it was secondary to hypogonadism, in three it was idiopathic and in one it was due to toxic exposure. Twenty patients had mastodynia and in 33, gynecomastia had a diameter over 4 cm. It lasted less than two years in 30 patients, more than two years in nine and four did not recall its duration. All were treated with tamoxifen 20 mg/day for 6 months. A follow up evaluation was performed at three and six months of treatment.
> 
> RESULTS: Mastodynia disappeared in all patients at three months. At six months gynecomastia disappeared in 26 patients (62%), but relapsed in 27%. All gynecomastias caused by drugs with antiandrogen activity disappeared. Fifty two percent of gynecomastias over 4 cm and 90% of those of less than 4 cm in diameter disappeared (p<0.05). Fifty six percent of gynecomastias lasting more than two years and 70% of those of a shorter duration disappeared (p=NS). Two patients had diarrhea or flushes associated to the therapy.
> 
> CONCLUSIONS: Tamoxifen is safe and effective for the treatment of gynecomastia. Larger lesions have a lower response to treatment.
> 
> PMID 18357357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18357357/




> Lawrence and colleagues report their experience with the use of either raloxifene or tamoxifen, both antiestrogenic agents, in reducing breast size in adolescent boys with benign gynecomastia. The data presented are from a retrospective review of 37 patients: 12 received reassurance alone, 10 received raloxifene (60 mg once daily for 3 to 9 months), and 15 received tamoxifen (10 to 20 mg twice dialy for 3 to 9 months). Baseline studies including LH, FSH, testosterone, and estradiol levels were normal in all subjects and there were no significant differences among the groups with regard to age at initiation of treatment, Tanner stage, BMI or baseline hormone levels. Significant reductions in breast diameter were measured with both raloxifene (2.5cm, 66% reduction) and tamoxifen (2.1cm, 46% reduction). However, a 50% or greater reduction was seen more often in the raloxifene treated group (86% vs 41%). No side effects of the medications were reported.



^^^ Growth, Genetics, & Hormone Journal Volume 20, Issue 4, December 2004




> Tamoxifen therapy for painful idiopathic gynecomastia.
> 
> AuthorsMcDermott MT, et al. Show all Journal
> South Med J. 1990 Nov;83(11):1283-5.
> Affiliation
> Department of Medicine, Fitzsimons Army Medical Center, Aurora, CO 80045-5001.
> Abstract
> We have evaluated the efficacy of the antiestrogen tamoxifen in six men with painful idiopathic gynecomastia. Subjects were given either tamoxifen or placebo for 2 to 4 months and then were given the other agent for an identical period. Breast size was considered to have been reduced only if it had decreased by one or more Marshall-Tanner stages during the treatment period. Pain reduction with tamoxifen therapy was statistically significant for the group, occurring in five of six subjects during tamoxifen treatment and in only one of six during the placebo period. Size reduction with tamoxifen was only marginally significant for the entire group, but occurred in all three subjects who were initially in Marshall-Tanner stage III and in none of the three subjects who were initially in stage V. During tamoxifen treatment, there was a significant increase in the serum levels of luteinizing hormone and total estradiol and a marginally significant increment in the total testosterone level.
> 
> PMID 2237557 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2237557/


There are a few more I have indexed and bookmarked at home if you'd like some more studies brother.


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## DocDePanda187123

Seeker said:


> Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late.
> 
> Good luck though. I wish you the best



SERMs have been shown to reduce and in many cases reverse gyno even in pubertal gyno cases where the patients had it for years and years. 

I too wish you luck OP. Whatever method you try I hope works for you


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## gymrat827

Seeker said:


> Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but *it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery*. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late.
> 
> Good luck though. I wish you the best



kinda of right.

Treatment is long term.....most blast letro + caber for 2wks thinking it will go away.  

I am also thinking of going 20wks on the cycle if theres little to no progress by wk 12.  



My been reading on this for 6 months.  I dont think theres anything better i could be using.  now time to put it to the test.  It will start in about 5wks.  Dec 1.


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## Azog

Docd187123 said:


> SERMs have been shown to reduce and in many cases reverse gyno even in pubertal gyno cases where the patients had it for years and years.
> 
> I too wish you luck OP. Whatever method you try I hope works for you



Interesting studies! Thank you for sharing them. Guess I'm just unlucky .

My main point was just to make sure people know there is no cure for gyno. Even if these treatments are successful (or even if you have had surgery), gyno CAN come back! Maybe I am paranoid, but shit...gyno is ugly and I don't want that shit coming back!


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## Seeker

Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?


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## gymrat827

Seeker said:


> Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?



A hi dose of masteron will create an unfavorable environment for gyno....Thats the 1 thing you need.  A few guys have already done this exactly cycle and i am essentially copying them.  Next would be the long term dosing of ralox or nolva... like 18-24wks.


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## DocDePanda187123

Azog said:


> Interesting studies! Thank you for sharing them. Guess I'm just unlucky .
> 
> My main point was just to make sure people know there is no cure for gyno. Even if these treatments are successful (or even if you have had surgery), gyno CAN come back! Maybe I am paranoid, but shit...gyno is ugly and I don't want that shit coming back!



Not at all my man, I'm happy I could be of help. Gyno is ugly and you're absolutely right, even if reversed with SERM treatment, it is capable of coming back in which case another round of SERMs Or surgery would be in order. Mind if I ask how you treated your gyno?



Seeker said:


> Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?



If you're on a cycle I personally wouldn't cut it short as many anecdotal experiences and studies have shown that not only can gyno be treated/reversed while on cycle but that androgen abuse induced gyno is one of the most easily treatable forms. If you're on cycle though, the gyno may not reverse while you're on cycle (it can take up to 6-9months or longer in some cases) so continued treatment may be required. Also if on cycle, managing estrogen is CRITICAL. I can't stress that enough, estrogen management is critical and the first line of defense. Get blood work mid cycle, preferably a sensitive E2 assay, take your AI, monitor for sides, etc. Stay on top of it. 

Gyno is weird bc is etiology is not 100% known. Certain medications can lead to gyno, elevated estrogen, estrogen dominance (elevated estrogen levels in relation to progesterone), recreational drugs, AAS (androgenic drugs), etc have all been shown to lead to gyno but as far as I'm aware the exact mechanism of action or pathway is still unknown. Gyno can only happen in the presence of estrogen, IGF-1, and HGH. They're all concomitant factors, meaning in the absence of one, gyno won't present itself. Taking HGH and IGF-1 if susceptible to gyno could make things worse, aromatizable cycles without managing estrogen is another cause, etc. 

Technically speaking gynecomastia is the hyperplasia  or growth of the ductal cells in breast tissue. Only estrogen affects the ductal tissue cells while progesterone affects the aereal cells in breast tissue, and prolactin will lead to lactation if too high for too long. So only estrogen can cause gyno as we define it but progesterone can lead to gyno bc of the estrogen to progesterone ratio and high progesterone can make you more susceptible to the effects of elevated estrogen. Prolactin similarly can amify the effects of elevated estrogen but does not play a direct role like the other two.


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## #TheMatrix

GR...
long term ,  while ON.  or OFF?  
I love mast too.


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## gymrat827

#TheMatrix said:


> GR...
> long term ,  while ON.  or OFF?
> I love mast too.



on or off.  a low dose of tes and a hi hi dose of mast is a good start.


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## hulksmash

Just run test

Then run letro with Nolva

Goodbye gyno

In fact, I had pubertal gyno (puffy nips)...it left after I started cruising on test oddly enough

Probably has something to do with how my body is with DHT (lack of body/facial hair, no balding issues, et al)


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## DocDePanda187123

hulksmash said:


> Just run test
> 
> Then run letro with Nolva
> 
> Goodbye gyno
> 
> In fact, I had pubertal gyno (puffy nips)...it left after I started cruising on test oddly enough
> 
> Probably has something to do with how my body is with DHT (lack of body/facial hair, no balding issues, et al)



One cause of gyno is hormonal imbalance. An improper ratio to testosterone to estrogen or estrogen to progesterone both could have been likely factors. By going on cycle you increase your testosterone levels and lower estrogen (from baseline or at least control it).


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## hulksmash

Docd187123 said:


> One cause of gyno is hormonal imbalance. An improper ratio to testosterone to estrogen or estrogen to progesterone both could have been likely factors. By going on cycle you increase your testosterone levels and lower estrogen (from baseline or at least control it).



Which I figured, and one of the variables that help convince my wife to let me stay on


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## DocDePanda187123

hulksmash said:


> Which I figured, and one of the variables that help convince my wife to let me stay on



If that's all it takes to convince her she is one special woman. A keeper!


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## Austinite

Agree with SERM therapy. Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor. One of the most powerful aromatase inhibitors available today. Far too many people are considering this method because many moons ago it was touted as a good tool for reversal. We've learned a lot since then and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERM) studies on gynecomastia reversal are readily available for confirmation. 

I did a short experiment myself recently when my E2 came back at 46 pg/mL (Range < 29 for a sensitive E2 assay). I did not experience gynecomastia, but I wanted to bring that down back to range. The increase was likely due to switching my Testosterone Therapy administrations from subcutaneous (SubQ) to intramuscular (IM). IM injections have more of an impact on E2 due to faster absorption. This result came about on July 2nd. I had a Letrozole prescription laying around and figured I'd give it a go. It's been so long since I've used Letrozole. My prescription was for 100 microgram capsules. 

I administered 100 mcg. (Micrograms) daily. After the 10th day I felt miserable and so I discontinued use. One week _after _I stopped, I tested E2 again and it came back 2 pg/mL. Remember, this is a full week after Letrozole was discontinued. So it had to be at zero, or "too low to count" for several days. I was bedridden for several days. Completely useless and couldn't find a reason to get up and about. If you've killed your E2 before, you know exactly what I mean. I don't wish this on anyone.  Really amazes me that some folks are running this thing using milligram after milligram several times per week. And these "Gynecomastia Reversal" threads using these astronomical doses are just mind boggling. Pretty eye opening once again. Anyway, I waited a while and got back on DIM.

The entire letrozole for gynecomastia reversal came about in 2001 when a study was published. This study was done on mice, not humans. So don't be a mouse, be a man. PMID: 11850204 if you want to look it up. 

To give you an example of how low this drug is supposed to be dosed, it was studied in extremely obese hypogonadal men. Overweight men convert far more estrogen than non-overweight men. This is because they carry far more aromatase enzymes. Using Letrozole, these highly aromatizing men were treated with doses of 2mg to 2.5mg once per week. If we break that up, you're looking at about 285 micrograms per day. That's it. This powerful drug never, under any circumstances should be used in a milligram + basis on a daily administered protocol. It is simply outrageous. Reference here. 

_Let's look at some more recent studies:_



> Dated: 2011 - *Effects of aromatase inhibition on male breast
> 
> *Tamoxifen was much more effective, however, in the prevention of gynecomastia in these men. Due to these disappointing results, *aromatase inhibitors are not recommended as a first-line treatment for gynecomastia* in men.
> 
> ^ Click here for the source of the excerpt above.






> Dated: 2004 - *Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia*
> 
> Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. *No side effects were seen in any patients*.
> 
> ^ Click here for the source of the excerpt above.






> Dated: 2004 - *Management of physiological gynaecomastia with tamoxifen*
> 
> Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20mg once daily for 6-12 weeks. Oral *tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia*, especially for the lump type.
> 
> ^ Click here for the source of the excerpt above.



So we've learned a couple things here. We know that an Aromatase Inhibitor is a poor choice, and we also learned that SERM's are more effective, safer and with no side effects. Lastly, we learned that while Tamoxifen is effective, it is superseded by the superior SERM; Raloxifene. 

Aromatase inhibitors are not selective and will demolish your estradiol levels with prolonged use, rendering you miserable and useless. In the case of Letrozole, you could deplete your E2 levels to nothing in no time. SERMs like Tamoxifen and Raloxifene are pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. This is what mainly makes a SERM the clinically preferred drug for gynecomastia reversal. 

*TO REVERSE GYNECOMASTIA WITH SERMS:*

*Raloxifene:* 60mg daily. You should see improvement in approx. 4 to 6 weeks. If not increase by 20 mg for every 3 weeks, never to exceed 100mg daily. (If using over 90 days, drop dose to 30mg daily)

*Tamoxifen:* 40mg daily for one week. Then 20mg daily until gynecomastia is reversed. 

Both protocols above will take time. This is not a 2 week process. Reversal will require patience. But it most certainly is effective, side-effect-free and cost incredibly effective when compared to surgery.


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## hulksmash

Docd187123 said:


> If that's all it takes to convince her she is one special woman. A keeper!



Definitely!

I also want to add that I only use letro for water, and used letro long after my puffy nips was gone

And since cruising got rid of gyno, I can't give much anecdotal backing to my advice


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## HDH

I've used Letro in the past with success. Of course it's a good way to punish your E2. It seemed a lot of guys did but for new gyno. It could remove a lump in a matter of weeks. We knew about the E2 issues but hey, dry like the desert or grow tits. It was a no brainer at that time. LOL

It's good to see better research for us to go by as time goes on. Back then we didn't know extended higher dosed treatment of SERMS would help with long term issues.

HDH


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## corvettels3

Just cut those ****ers out and be done with it. I used nolvadex many years ago and it did to a certain degree shrink my gyno, but I still had it. I got the surgery a few years ago with zero regrets. Good luck brother..


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## Azog

Docd187123 said:


> Not at all my man, I'm happy I could be of help. Gyno is ugly and you're absolutely right, even if reversed with SERM treatment, it is capable of coming back in which case another round of SERMs Or surgery would be in order. Mind if I ask how you treated your gyno?



I attempted several reversal protocols with zero success. 
I ran 2 months of letro. I worked up to 2.5 or 5mg a day. I can't recall. Luckily I don't suffer when my e2 is 0 haha.
I also tried ralox. I ran it for 8months, if my memory serves me correctly. Dosage was 60mg for the first few months, but I bumped it to 120mgs for majority of the time.
These attempts yielded no noticeable results . I ended up going under the knife about 14months ago. The excision was the best decision I ever made! Man it feels good to be rid of those lumps. My pubertal gyno was pretty nasty! One gland was rather thin, but a bit larger in diameter than a baseball.The other was smaller and thicker...a bit bigger than a golf ball. Crazy and nasty!


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## DocDePanda187123

Azog said:


> I attempted several reversal protocols with zero success.
> I ran 2 months of letro. I worked up to 2.5 or 5mg a day. I can't recall. Luckily I don't suffer when my e2 is 0 haha.
> I also tried ralox. I ran it for 8months, if my memory serves me correctly. Dosage was 60mg for the first few months, but I bumped it to 120mgs for majority of the time.
> These attempts yielded no noticeable results . I ended up going under the knife about 14months ago. The excision was the best decision I ever made! Man it feels good to be rid of those lumps. My pubertal gyno was pretty nasty! One gland was rather thin, but a bit larger in diameter than a baseball.The other was smaller and thicker...a bit bigger than a golf ball. Crazy and nasty!



Consider yourself lucky at least you didn't feel like complete crap with tanked E2 lol, can't say the same about myself! Not everyone responds to SERM treatment or letro, I've been trying to dig into why it doesn't work on some but I'm not finding much info. What I have found was that in almost all cases illicit androgen-induced gynecomastia is reversible or treatable to a great degree. Pubertal on the other hand is a lot less forgiving. Glad to hear you got rid of that shit and are G2G brother!


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## DF

I had good success in reducing gyno that I had for years using Letro a couple years ago.  I did the standard protocol that is out there fro the reduction.  I also managed to crash my E2 elbows hurt like a mofo & ended up with bad tendonitis in both forearms.  I'd say the reduction was 75-80% and the pain was eliminated.  Of course I still do have flair ups depending on what AAS I'm cycling.  

Very good info posted up here thanks guys.  I plan on sifting thru this when I have a bit more time.


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## DocDePanda187123

DF said:


> I had good success in reducing gyno that I had for years using Letro a couple years ago.  I did the standard protocol that is out there fro the reduction.  I also managed to crash my E2 elbows hurt like a mofo & ended up with bad tendonitis in both forearms.  I'd say the reduction was 75-80% and the pain was eliminated.  Of course I still do have falir ups depending on what AAS I'm cycling.
> 
> Very good info posted up here thanks guys.  I plan on sifting thru this when I have a bit more time.



If it flares up or rears it's ugly head again, may I suggest SERM treatment, specifically raloxifene or tamoxifen. There are plenty more studies out there about their efficacy if anyone is interested in reading and as you and I both experienced: crashing E2 is not a fun task or one I look forward to doing again hahaha. Now that you mention it, this may be the reason why my tendinitis flared up not too long ago after everything feeling great for a while.


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## DF

I'm on cycle now & kicked off with Dbol.  I was hoping to avoid a flair up by taking 1mg Adex M,W,F.  I do have some mild tenderness on the left side at the moment.  I'm going to check my reseach place for the raloxifene & tamox.


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## Austinite

It's rare that a surgeon would complete removal. very rare. Many patients had recurrent cases.


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## gymrat827

DF said:


> I'm on cycle now & kicked off with Dbol.  I was hoping to avoid a flair up by taking 1mg Adex M,W,F.  I do have some mild tenderness on the left side at the moment.  I'm going to check my reseach place for the raloxifene & tamox.



PM me about the ralox.  Got pharm grade cheap....and shipping was only a 1.5 wks


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## don draco

Bumping this.  Lots of great information here.


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## TheBlob

Thank you Doc once again


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## RISE

yo what do you guys know about liquidcaber?  From what ive read its more unstable as a liquid and the potency takes a hit after a certain amount of time.  Also should i keep this in my fridge/freezer to help with this?


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## DocDePanda187123

I would not trust liquid caber personally


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## gymrat827

RISE said:


> yo what do you guys know about liquidcaber?  From what ive read its more unstable as a liquid and the potency takes a hit after a certain amount of time.  Also should i keep this in my fridge/freezer to help with this?



dont buy research chemical shit man....dont chance things.  I sure wouldnt ..


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## DocDePanda187123

gymrat827 said:


> dont buy research chemical shit man....dont chance things.  I sure wouldnt ..



Everything I've gotten from RC companies has been good so far. You take a chance regardless of where you get your stuff from unless it's directly from a pharmacy.


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## RISE

well the only site i knew that sold caber in pill form is no longer around.


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## DocDePanda187123

RISE said:


> well the only site i knew that sold caber in pill form is no longer around.



Prami is just as good if not better than caber so if you can find some you won't need the caber.


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## gymrat827

but it does make you sick/ feel terrible for a while...


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## DocDePanda187123

gymrat827 said:


> but it does make you sick/ feel terrible for a while...



Yes but that's why you start with a low dose before bed on a full stomach. After a few days increase dosage slightly and repeat. Most prami sides can be minimized or negated with following the above. It also has other benefits over caber which is why I prefer it


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## Maintenance Man

Docd187123 said:


> Yes but that's why you start with a low dose before bed on a full stomach. After a few days increase dosage slightly and repeat. Most prami sides can be minimized or negated with following the above. It also has other benefits over caber which is why I prefer it



Doc i haven't felt sick at all with my prami at .25mgs EOD. Maybe tired but NEVER sick. Hell I even take it in the morning, noon, night, it doesn't matter. 

Before you ask its from ADC lol


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## SHRUGS

RISE said:


> yo what do you guys know about liquidcaber?  From what ive read its more unstable as a liquid and the potency takes a hit after a certain amount of time.  Also should i keep this in my fridge/freezer to help with this?



Liquid Caber if its legit degrades after day one and very quickly after about 28 days. After a month I'd probably toss it. The problem with the liquid even after day one is its constantly degrading so each day you can never be really sure what damn dosage you're taking. If you can get "real" liquid Caber and get it fresh every 3-4 weeks then great.


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## RISE

is there an RC company anyone would recommend that carries caber in something other than liquid form?


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## TheBlob

Rise I dont think RC companies carry anything other than liquid stuff.. Does the prami degrade as well?


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## Maintenance Man

TheBlob said:


> Rise I dont think RC companies carry anything other than liquid stuff.. Does the prami degrade as well?



You're correct, they don't. Its illegal to sell RCs in anything BUT liquid form.


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## RISE

How's the cycle going gym rat?  did you get your ralox from a docs prescription?  I've been researching it and have found a few places that sell it without a prescription, just don't know how legit it is.


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## TheLupinator

Docd187123 said:


> You don't want to keep the ralox at 60mg for much longer than 10days as it can lead to BDL (bone density loss).



Ralox won't lead to bone density loss. It's used to treat/prevent breast cancer as well as osteoporosis   

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a698007.html


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## DocDePanda187123

TheLupinator said:


> Ralox won't lead to bone density loss. It's used to treat/prevent breast cancer as well as osteoporosis
> 
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a698007.html



Yea I'm aware of a study saying the same thing. What I based my recommendation on is a conversation with Austinite. He was told by a leading surgeon/endo about chronic high doses leading to issues with bone density. The doctor and Austinite were heading a study on raloxifene and don't know if it's been published in the journals yet. He has promised to send me references to back the claim up. Until that time this is what he told me just yesterday about it:



			
				Austinite said:
			
		

> The main issue is extended use. I’ve always pitched that it takes months to fully reverse gynecomastia. I don’t want anyone using 60mg for months on end. So it’s fine to use 60 for a month or so, but then it’s already saturated, there is no need for excessive use and dropping to 30mg is more than plenty to continue treatment at the same pace 60mg would, without potential damage.
> 
> When I get some time I will find some references for you


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## gymrat827

TheLupinator said:


> Ralox won't lead to bone density loss. It's used to treat/prevent breast cancer as well as osteoporosis
> 
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a698007.html



look into ralox in general.......It does lead to density loss over long periods of time.  

its one of the things a real Doc would be paying constant attention to if you had you on it.


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## gymrat827

RISE said:


> How's the cycle going gym rat?  did you get your ralox from a docs prescription?  I've been researching it and have found a few places that sell it without a prescription, just don't know how legit it is.



never started it.  have other issues pending.  

i got the ralox for safemeds4all.  its pharm grade.  GTG spot to get it.


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## Fsuphisig

Some good info in this thread I forwarded to a buddy, we should make a gyno sticky if we haven't already


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## French813

Hey guys new to this... Im 26 was supposed to compete in my first ohysique show but had to withdraw due to some very bad gyno... Normally i can defeat it but i dont know where to get any pharm grade letro anymore😔... Possible chance anyone could point me in the right direction?


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## Maintenance Man

French813 said:


> Hey guys new to this... Im 26 was supposed to compete in my first ohysique show but *had to withdraw due to some very bad gyno... Normally i can defeat it but i dont know where to get any pharm grade letro anymore*... Possible chance anyone could point me in the right direction?



Have you been reading this thread at all? 

Why don't you introduce yourself in the new members section? A 1st post asking where to be led to buy illegal scripts is never a good start bruh.


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## makuzi

hi guys. i wanted to start my first cycle and i have a preexisting gyno. wondering if i can start it with raloxifene and reverse/minimize gyno or will it affect my pre existing gyno or do i just run raloxifene by itself to reverse/monimize gyno. thank you guys. this thread is really imformative!


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## knightmare999

makuzi said:


> hi guys. i wanted to start my first cycle and i have a preexisting gyno. wondering if i can start it with raloxifene and reverse/minimize gyno or will it affect my pre existing gyno or do i just run raloxifene by itself to reverse/monimize gyno. thank you guys. this thread is really imformative!



How many posts are you going to make about your gyno?
If you run ralox, be aware of its effects on bone density.
You might start at 60 mg for 10-14 days, then 30 mg a day after for as long as it takes.


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