# Misconception in "knowing how to eat"



## TheLupinator (May 31, 2014)

We all know that eating more calories is what puts on muscle - And a lot of guys come here looking for exactly that. Now the easy answer is to EAT MORE FOOD.. But somehow eating more became synonymous with eating dirty - So tell me this, when did eating healthy become counter productive to gaining muscle? I'm not saying optimal, I'm saying counter productive - think about that. Nobody comes on here asking to put on as much muscle as humanly possible regardless of how much fat they put on. 


For guys with sufficient training habits - I always recommend eating healthy first, regardless of where you want your weight to go. Why? bc if you're eating 99% clean you will either drop fat (caloric deficit) or gain muscle (caloric surplus) and proper training will keep you from losing muscle or gaining fat - depending on the net calorie consumption. Whether you're losing primarily fat or gaining primarily muscle you are heading in the right direction - A jacked ripped mutha fckker. Then it's as simple as increasing or decreasing proportions depending on your goals.


WE ALL KNOW eating dirty will help build muscle bc of the sheer # of calories, but what happens when young'ns hit 40, 45, 50 years old and their metabolism takes a dive, or they can't train how they use to, or their testosterone dips (not everyone wants to be on TRT for life). They will have bad eating habits ingrained in them... not gonna be a pretty picture


This whole conception of "you are small, you don't know how to eat bro" is a double standard. Especially when we concentrate on someone's overall weight way too much - isn't that what women do? Bros being medium height 200+ with ZERO muscle definition is BS. Dudes are built and that's cool but if your fat makes your entire body look rounded like cheese puff, well those 200lbs just aren't impressive. 


So next time someone says "you don't know how to eat" I hope you're under 18% bf because you clearly don't know how to eat either.


----------



## JAXNY (May 31, 2014)

This has just always been common sense to me right from the get go. I remember right before my first cycle my buddy told me, just eat everything and anything. McDonald's burger king etc. I was like F you!
I've always wanted to gain mass but be lean as F as well. I constantly eat clean.  I have still always gained size. Even on my bulking phases the diet is cleaner than the normal persons but I'll dirty it up a little but still sensible and not ridiculous. You're just creating extra work for yourself when you have to burn all of that lard off. Once you get used to eating clean it just becomes a way of life, a piece of cake. 
I know what you're saying Lup and good point. 
I tell people to eat eat eat as well. I guess I might be taking it for granite that they assume I mean eat but eat clean. But in fact they may be going out eating everything in sight because as you said so many people do suggest that. I'll be sure to make sure I clarify in the future. 
I've never suggested to anyone to eat dirty just to eat. Its counter productive and just UN healthy.


----------



## Bro Bundy (May 31, 2014)

i really feel if u dont have abs your diet is off..now we all know i think my way but a ripped mid section is the first sign of a healthy diet


----------



## JAXNY (May 31, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> i really feel if u dont have abs your diet is off..now we all know i think my way but a ripped mid section is the first sign of a healthy diet


Or that you're from Ethiopia


----------



## Pinkbear (May 31, 2014)

This goes Along with peoples perception on eating "heathly" at work all the time while eating lunch I get asked why are you eating healthy or why are you in a diet. 

I always tell people I'm not eating healthy or on a diet this is how you're suppose to be eating.

But I'm also not strict on my diet.


----------



## Bro Bundy (May 31, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> Or that you're from Ethiopia



200 is the cut of line..anything under doesnt count lol i bet them fuks can run for 500 miles lol


----------



## PillarofBalance (Jun 1, 2014)

What does eating clean mean? Please define it.


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 1, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> What does eating clean mean? Please define it.



no pop tarts


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> What does eating clean mean? Please define it.



Eating clean means staying away from this shit right herrrrrrr

- Bleached white flour
- Partially* hydrogenated oils
- Refined sugars
- High fructose corn syrup
- Processed meat




^^Cutting this shit out is what I consider the most basic sense of eating clean


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

I get that there is no clinical definition of eating clean, but it's not rocket science. I listed 4 ingredients (plus processed meats) that are clear cut not healthy for you and that are probably in 99% of people's diet.


But this is what I mean by "step #1" in the process of building your body for a purpose. I'm not saying cut out egg yolks, dairy, or go keto (although that might be your ticket to single digit % bf). Just the shit that is not helping you get anywhere.


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 1, 2014)

fish chicken eggs turkey bison rice oats beans fruits nuts all kinda green shit like spinach and kale..this is eating clean


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 1, 2014)

when ever i stray away from this type of diet i always get fat


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> fish chicken eggs turkey bison rice oats beans fruits nuts all kinda green shit like spinach and kale..this is eating clean




Spot on bro. I listed ingredients to stay away from bc the list of clean foods goes on and on


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> What does eating clean mean? Please define it.



Eating clean....not eating foods that will make you fat or prevent you from burning fat. 
Staying away from,
Salts, sugars, butter, mayonnaise, oils, dairy fried foods processed foods etc...You basically know what's bad. 
A clean meal would be like, 
Grilled fish, no butter salt tartare  sauce etc. 
GGreenbeaans, same. Plain no butter salt. 
Yam, sweet potato. No butter salt etc. 
The opposite of that would be say. fettuccine Alfredo.  
Fried chicken potatoes with butter. Beans with salt. 
Cheeseburger,  fish fry. Cereal. Ham sandwich.  
Not the best examples but I think you get the idea.


----------



## Seeker (Jun 1, 2014)

Fat is not your enemy . You list fat as if it was bad for you.


----------



## DieYoungStrong (Jun 1, 2014)

From this day forward I will order my double quarter pounders with no cheese . 

I agree with a lot of what's said to some extent, but when 6', 140 lb guys come on here looking to gain mass, they are not going to get fat packing in some "dirty" calories to gain some size. They are also not going to get very big eating grilled chicken breasts, green beans, and rice, unless they can force feed themselves 10 or so chicken breasts a day. Most can't do that.


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Fat is not your enemy . You list fat as if it was bad for you.



You have your good fats and bad fats. I just didn't clarify it because I'm sure PB already knows that. But I guess it would have been a good idea to do so for the beginners.
The fat in almonds would be good for you. 
The fat in butter would not be.


----------



## Hero Swole (Jun 1, 2014)

So salt is a dirty food ahhaa


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> From this day forward I will order my double quarter pounders with no cheese .
> 
> I agree with a lot of what's said to some extent, but when 6', 140 lb guys come on here looking to gain mass, they are not going to get fat packing in some "dirty" calories to gain some size. They are also not going to get very big eating grilled chicken breasts, green beans, and rice, unless they can force feed themselves 10 or so chicken breasts a day. Most can't do that.



Sure you can. You can pack on size and still eat clean. I wouldn't eat as clean as if I were dieting down to rip up. But that's why I say on my bulking phase I'll dirty it up a bit but still keep it sensible and not ridiculous. 
You do not have to eat shit foods such as burgers and fries to gain mass. You will just have to burn more fat afterward to get rid of the blubber you put on or in a not so bad scenario you'll still have to work extra hard to lean out to get rid of the smoothed over look you got by eating dirty. 
When you could have packed on the mass and kept it clean and wouldn't have to diet down as hard afterward had you eaten meals like steak and yams. Pasta. Veggies turkey breast chicken fish. You can use cleaner carbs and less saturated fats and salts to put the mass on. 
Eat all of your meals. Use protein powders and carb powders in between meals and when ever You can so you are eating practically every 2 hours. 
Protien powders with carb powder are a great and useful addition. Never to be used in place of a meal. But when used in between meals and when there are those times where there isn't the time to eat they become extremely useful and will help you put the mass on in a much cleaner manner.


----------



## Seeker (Jun 1, 2014)

I eat raw whole butter all the time, I also make homemade lard every now then. Generations of healthy Europeans have lived well into there 90's and 100's eating tons of fat in butter, whole raw milk, cheese, oils, and yes wine. Ever see that picture of a bunch of ants totally ignoring the Marjarine stick but they are swarming the butter?


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

Hero Swole said:


> So salt is a dirty food ahhaa



Sodium makes you hold water. Especially if you are taking test. That is why you need to really watch your sodium while on a cycle to prevent you from getting that puffy bloated look. 
Some guys will be on a cycle and eat a pizza or bag of chips one day and then wonder why they look like a blow fish the next day. 
It also raises your blood pressure.


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

7 oz chicken breast -------------250cals
2 medium sweet potatoes ------200cals
2 tbsp olive oil ------------------250cals
12oz unsweetened soy milk ----150cals

850 cals x 4 meals = 3,400 calories


That meal does not constitute force feeding and 3,400 cals is a great starting place for 95% of the population


----------



## Azog (Jun 1, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> 7 oz chicken breast -------------250cals
> 2 medium sweet potatoes ------200cals
> 2 tbsp olive oil ------------------250cals
> 12oz unsweetened soy milk ----150cals
> ...



Soy milk? You trying to transgender us bro?


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 1, 2014)

Azog said:


> Soy milk? You trying to transgender us bro?



whats wrong with trannies?


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

Seek, my man! Like were your heads at - Swap out the soy milk for red wine!! Now we're talking


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

I haven't come off the breast milk yet.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Jun 1, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> 7 oz chicken breast -------------250cals
> 2 medium sweet potatoes ------200cals
> 2 tbsp olive oil ------------------250cals
> 12oz unsweetened soy milk ----150cals
> ...



I would have to be chained to a chair with a car battery attached to my nuts for someone to get me to eat one single bite of a chicken breast.  I ate like you describe above for a few years. It got from from 198 to 220.  It got to a point where I was so disgusted by eating like this that I found myself skipping meals.  I like my food to taste good.

There absolutely is no one definition to eating clean and for good reason. You have some guys making fat out to be the anti-christ.  But you say egg yolks are fine.  Nobody can follow a "clean eating" diet if nobody can even agree on what one is. It makes no sense.

It also isn't backed up not only with any sort of scientific research but actual experience as well.  I have a training partner who cut from 240 to under 198. He has an elite total in 3 weight classes and competed at Raw Unity.  When he cut to 198 this was his typical diet:

Breakfast
5 eggs, 4 slices bacon, oats, milk

Lunch
Cheeseburger with avacado, egg, bacon and sweet potato fries with ketchup

Dinner
Ribeye steak, baked potato, milk

Dessert
Big ass cup of orange leaf frozen yogurt with all sorts of candy toppings

He ate that day in and day out. He is as I said under 198lbs and is about 5 feet 5 inches tall.  He did this without coming close to what anyone would agree is eating clean.

How do you explain IIFYM or flexible dieting?  How do you explain seeker's physique? How do you explain John Meadows? Or any other number of bodybuilders who don't eat chicken breast and sweet potatoes and broccoli at every meal?  

The clean eating kind of diet is simply from a lack of creativity and in depth knowledge of nutrition.

Will eating packaged foods make you fat? No.  But the trick with them is that they have more calories per bite.  You simply have to eat a smaller portion.  

And I haven't even brought up those high metabolism guys that have to eat INSANE calories to make gains.  Fortunately I'm not one of them!


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

Azog said:


> Soy milk? You trying to transgender us bro?




http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/expertvoices/post/2012/08/02/the-bottom-line-on-soy-and-breast-cancer-risk.aspx



"Furthermore, while isoflavones may act like estrogen, they also have anti-estrogen properties. That is, they can block the more potent natural estrogens from binding to the estrogen receptor.  In addition, they stop the formation of estrogens in fat tissue and stimulate production of a protein that binds estrogen in the blood (to make it less able to bind to the receptor).  They also have anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties and work in other ways to reduce cancer growth."


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I would have to be chained to a chair with a car battery attached to my nuts for someone to get me to eat one single bite of a chicken breast.  I ate like you describe above for a few years. It got from from 198 to 220.  It got to a point where I was so disgusted by eating like this that I found myself skipping meals.  I like my food to taste good.
> 
> There absolutely is no one definition to eating clean and for good reason. You have some guys making fat out to be the anti-christ.  But you say egg yolks are fine.  Nobody can follow a "clean eating" diet if nobody can even agree on what one is. It makes no sense.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately PB a lot of it is trial and error. Most of the diets described are guidelines and you are going to have to learn how to tweak them for your own personal self as everyone is not the same and what works for one guy may not work as well for another. 
When I started I took a basic dieting plan implemented cardio and training and then it took several dieting cycles to really find out what works well for my body. 
Also everyone's goal is different So you will have to tweak a diet accordingly. 
If you want shredded abs your diet is going to be quit different from someone who is just looking to lower body fat percentage ands so forth. 
All of these diets are basically guides. Then depending on your specific goal you'll have to figure out what needs to be tweaked for it to work well with your personal body.


----------



## f.r.a.n.k. (Jun 1, 2014)

Great post brother! Good read


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

POB I think you're missing the point.


First, that meal was an example of what one can eat that is healthy and has a good amount of calories - not the only meal.


Second you mention IIFYM... Again you're missing the point. When did I say you can't stay lean eating a little dirty? I said dirty foods are not helping you, I never said that they will 100% stop you from achieving anything - AND btw the only items that don't fit my standard of eating clean from the sample meal plan you have up there is the cheeseburger bun, the ketchup, and the frozen yogurt w/ candy.... 

Again I simply stated that given an individual's caloric needs for his desired goals, that the source of those calories are better off coming from clean foods. I told you the ingredients to stay away from and never did I say fat was bad. 


Again I'm not trying to start a "my diet is better than your diet, look at my gainz" bullshit arguement - I'm calling out fat asses telling guys the best way (and only way) to get big is to eat dirty. it's bullshit


----------



## PillarofBalance (Jun 1, 2014)

You are no fun lupi. I am changing your name to buzzkillinator


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> You are no fun lupi. I am changing your name to buzzkillinator




How bout we split a pack of pop-tarts and call it even?


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 1, 2014)

this goes back to the pl diet vs the bb diet...like i always say i hate bb and pl the same


----------



## woodswise (Jun 1, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> Eating clean....not eating foods that will make you fat or prevent you from burning fat.
> Staying away from,
> Salts, sugars, butter, mayonnaise, oils, dairy fried foods processed foods etc...You basically know what's bad.
> A clean meal would be like,
> ...



I disagree with having to avoid butter, mayonnaise, oils and other fats.  Fats are good for building muscle.  Fats are critical to a ketogenic diet.  If you're trying to stay lean, you just don't want a lot of fat while eating excess carbs at the same time.  

So when I bulk and am eating 300g + of carbs, I make sure my fats are around 100g per day or less.  

But when I am cutting and on Keto (eating less than 50g carbs per day), I am eating 150g + per day of fats including butter, mayonnaise, oils and bacon fat.


----------



## coltmc4545 (Jun 1, 2014)

I was just about to make a post about keto. Damnit woodswise. 

Unless you're prepping for a show and are only a few months out, there's absolutely no reason why you HAVE to eat clean every meal a day. You can easily eat 5 cleaner (and when I say cleaner I mean some steak or lean burgers and not pizza and pie) and then eat some sort of shit food once or twice a day. It's about moderation and caloric expenditure. If you enjoy eating clean every meal of everyday then to each his own. I like to enjoy my good. If I have to spend 2-300 a week on good I'm gonna make damn sure I enjoy my money.


----------



## JAXNY (Jun 1, 2014)

woodswise said:


> I disagree with having to avoid butter, mayonnaise, oils and other fats.  Fats are good for building muscle.  Fats are critical to a ketogenic diet.  If you're trying to stay lean, you just don't want a lot of fat while eating excess carbs at the same time.
> 
> So when I bulk and am eating 300g + of carbs, I make sure my fats are around 100g per day or less.
> 
> But when I am cutting and on Keto (eating less than 50g carbs per day), I am eating 150g + per day of fats including butter, mayonnaise, oils and bacon fat.



I tend to go to the extreme Woodswise.  My diet is not for everyone, it's not for most people as a matter of Fact. I like to be absolutely shredded in the summer. And decent fall and winter. When you want to stay this lean you have to avoid the saturated fats and butter is loaded with saturated fat and sodium. 
I'll enjoy myself during my bulking phase.  This is when I don't care so much if my abs are smoothed over, its winter, the shirt doesn't come off much. Although I don't get ridiculous about it I'll still maintain some definition.  If you let yourself go too much it'll be all the more work when spring comes to burn it off. I do have a cheat day once a week. Sundays. Where I'll eat everything and everything. 
I go to this extreme because it's the way I like to look. 
Its overboard for most people. But over the years of continually doing this I've learned how to shred up quickly.  So when you guys hear me speaking of dieting it's usually to the extreme. And you can not get that lean by eating butter and mayonnaise,  bacon etc.
A lot of you guys here are power lifters so I think you guys are more concerned with keeping the body fat percentage down vs being extremely ripped up. There fore you can do that with your diet without being as strict about it.


----------



## RJ (Jun 1, 2014)

great thread topic. My take is, and has always been, unless its your job, enjoy your ****ing life. Hell, after 24 years of this shit, one of the only reasons I workout is so i can eat what i want, wen i want. 99% of you aren't making a living being ripped, so if it means i'm 12-14%Bf instead of 8-10%, but i can still enjoy ice cream, burgers, pizza, mac and cheese, etc., who gives a ****. mlp

That being said, there is no cookie cutter diet for everyone because everyone is different. Shit, ecks can eat wtf he wants all day and still be bigger and leaner than 95% of guys out there. Yes he's 10 years my junior, but he's smart enough to know that if he ever started having problems dropping fat he may need to start cleaning up a bit. i highly doubt he would wait until he's 50lbs overweight before he made that decision. As i don't see anyone in this game who has built a decent physique doing that either. In the last 20+ years i have had to change my diet so much because of age, hormones, etc. But i don't ever let myself get obese and than say "oh shit... i better fix my diet!"

Lup, i think the best point you made was fat ****s telling people they need to eat dirty to get big. But i truly believe without adding in dirty cals weekly, you won't get nearly as big as someone who does (within reason). Just my $.02. Again, great topic.


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 1, 2014)

Agreed, we all have specifics diets tailored to our goals, I just wanted to weed out some of the blatantly bad food recommendations - Especially if the newcomer is not willing to blow up fat-wise just to maximize muscle gains. 


BTW regular butter made with sweet cream I consider clean (no partially hydrogenated oils) whereas margarine is the Anti-Christ.... Obviously Jax is looking to stay more than just lean so he eats for his goals - we all do. But when I say "clean" I mean the foods that aren't really helping you regardless of your goals.


Lastly cheat meals are not the enemy and they are fine in moderation as Colt pointed out, but we shouldn't recommend cheat meals as the foundation for even a bulking diet, they're are better alternatives.


----------



## Joliver (Jun 1, 2014)

I know that is true. Also, your body type is going to dictate how much leeway you have with clean vs dirty calories.  Some guys never gain fat, some people jiggle for a week when they see a bday cake.


----------



## stonetag (Jun 2, 2014)

I eat beef and fish and potato's....uh...that's all I got to say.


----------



## frak (Aug 4, 2014)

We used to run a weight loss clinic.  For weightloss phase we used to cycle the calorie intate every few days (from memory it was 1 day in 5 was higher).  We used a medical grade body fat analyzer (like a doctor would use) and calculated the calorie requirements based on the body composition.

One of the key parts of the diet was to consume good fats - you need these for the body to function well.  So many clients came in on almost zero fat in their diet.

For people on stupidly low fats we would increase their fat consumption for a week before they started the diet proper.

Quite a few of these people would start losing stored body fat during that week just because they were no longer on a dangerously low fat diet.

Hope this was a useful first post for sombody


Mathew


----------



## Gabrial (Aug 5, 2014)

lmao @ eating clean some of you need science


----------



## TheLupinator (Aug 6, 2014)

frak said:


> We used to run a weight loss clinic.  For weightloss phase we used to cycle the calorie intate every few days (from memory it was 1 day in 5 was higher).  We used a medical grade body fat analyzer (like a doctor would use) and calculated the calorie requirements based on the body composition.
> 
> One of the key parts of the diet was to consume good fats - you need these for the body to function well.  So many clients came in on almost zero fat in their diet.
> 
> ...




Weight loss clinic, huh? I've seen lots of times fats calculated as a % of total calories, which never made much sense to me. I'm curious what you consider "too low" in terms of dietary fat


----------

