# Programs with strength progression AND bodybuilding elements?



## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

Hey everyone,

I'm currently running Layne Norton's PHAT and have been for a while. I'm thinking of switching up my program because I've been platued for a while and want to focus on getting my lifts back up, and PHAT doesn't have a set progression really. I'm looking for something that has strength progression built in (ie after running one cycle of the program you max again and see some strength gains), but also some bodybuilding elements as that's my ultimate goal. Basically, powerbuilding.

I've been thinking of doing Jacked and Tan 2.0 (if anyone has done this let me know your thoughts), or maybe one of Jonnie Candito's programs. I've done 5/3/1 BBB before but wasn't a fan. 


Any ideas?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 5, 2017)

Pillar is gonna be in here any minute now to warn you about maxing too often. You want to spend your time building strength not constantly showing it. 

Candito to has some pretty decent stuff but it all depends where you're at. What are your stats and numbers like? You're going to spend a lot of your time in the 70-85% range on your specific lifts if you're serious about gaining strength. Constantly maxing out a la Westside style just isn't the best way to go about things IMO.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

I actually haven't maxed in a very long time, those are just rough estimates based on my current rep maxes. I just know that at the end of a lot of program's cycles they max so that you can see the difference in strength you gained. I'm not looking to max every week, working 70-85% zone is exactly what I'm looking for. 

Stats: 5'5", 19yrs old, natural, 150lbs. BP ~245-250, DL ~330, Front Squat  ~245, back squat = ****ed (lower back pain, going to try and fix it by  moving my way up from 135lbs focusing on form).

My highest lifts were end of last winter; BP ~250-260, DL ~380-390, Squat ~345-350


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 5, 2017)

Grab one of the sheiko templates floating around online. Sheiko 29 is a good place to start.  You will do a shitload of volume in the 70 to 80% range and will blow up. So will your lifts.


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## snake (Dec 5, 2017)

I think there's a good chance you need less of Norton, Candito and what ever the fuuk PHAT is and more Squat, Bench and Dead lift. As for Jacked and Tan 2.0, I'm so old, I have been running that program when it was in it's Beta format. 

Start thinking outside the Cube and find out what works best for you. That will take you to the next level my friend.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

snake said:


> I think there's a good chance you need less of Norton, Candito and what ever the fuuk PHAT is and more Squat, Bench and Dead lift. As for Jacked and Tan 2.0, I'm so old, I have been running that program when it was in it's Beta format.
> 
> Start thinking outside the Cube and find out what works best for you. That will take you to the next level my friend.



Good advice. I'm going to take a deload next week, and cut out a lot of the extra volume and accessory work, and really focus on bench / squat / deadlift instead of the accessories.

Just wondering, how are you like J&T 2.0? I've heard really good things about it, and the guy who created it seems like a smart dude.


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## tinymk (Dec 5, 2017)

No one program will fit with everyone. My advise is try em all and take the stuff that worked for you and continue to use it and flush the rest. I have touched into most programs being 25+ years as a powerlifter. I take the parts of each program that I felt worked well and I keep em. Now I train instinctive but have several elements/ concepts of several programs in my workouts.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

tinymk said:


> No one program will fit with everyone. My advise is try em all and take the stuff that worked for you and continue to use it and flush the rest. I have touched into most programs being 25+ years as a powerlifter. I take the parts of each program that I felt worked well and I keep em. Now I train instinctive but have several elements/ concepts of several programs in my workouts.



Yeah this makes sense. Ive kind of already done that a little bit as I've found programs with a mix of strength type training and traditional Bodybuilding training work the best for me, and are the most enjoyable for me.


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 5, 2017)

tinymk said:


> No one program will fit with everyone. My advise is try em all and take the stuff that worked for you and continue to use it and flush the rest. I have touched into most programs being 25+ years as a powerlifter. I take the parts of each program that I felt worked well and I keep em. Now I train instinctive but have several elements/ concepts of several programs in my workouts.





UrogenitalSubsect said:


> Yeah this makes sense. Ive kind of already done that a little bit as I've found programs with a mix of strength type training and traditional Bodybuilding training work the best for me, and are the most enjoyable for me.



Just don't knock a program until you give it an honest run. Nothing will make you go nowhere fast like program hopping.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

PillarofBalance said:


> Grab one of the sheiko templates floating around online. Sheiko 29 is a good place to start.  You will do a shitload of volume in the 70 to 80% range and will blow up. So will your lifts.



Do you know if there's any 4 day sheiko templates? 3 days a week wouldn't be enough for me, I prefer to be in the gym more days than not


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 5, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> Do you know if there's any 4 day sheiko templates? 3 days a week wouldn't be enough for me, I prefer to be in the gym more days than not



Well...run sheiko for a few months and see if you still feel the same. You can do some conditioning on the off days.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Just don't knock a program until you give it an honest run. Nothing will make you go nowhere fast like program hopping.



I've been one to do this in the past, so I always make sure to try and give everything a good run first before switching.


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 5, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> I've been one to do this in the past, so I always make sure to try and give everything a good run first before switching.



Trust me...3 days of sheiko is enough. You need to rest days. That's when you grow.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Well...run sheiko for a few months and see if you still feel the same. You can do some conditioning on the off days.



Could I maybe due abs too on some of the off days? I'm not a fan of doing abs after being dead tired of lifting, and it'd be a good way to keep me sane as at least I'll be in the gym.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Trust me...3 days of sheiko is enough. You need to rest days. That's when you grow.



Another sheiko question, sorry to ask so many. 

So I pull sumo, and I don't see any direct upper back work in sheiko 29, is the deadlifting enough or should maybe some chin ups be included? That also goes along with my other question of adding in bicep work, and chin ups could fill both the bicep and upper back work.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 5, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> Another sheiko question, sorry to ask so many.
> 
> So I pull sumo, and I don't see any direct upper back work in sheiko 29, is the deadlifting enough or should maybe some chin ups be included? That also goes along with my other question of adding in bicep work, and chin ups could fill both the bicep and upper back work.



Dude this program will ****ing destroy you. Do not add anything... how can you say there is not enough upper back work anyway? Do you think sumo doesn't use upper back? The weight hangs from your traps. 

Run the program


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

PillarofBalance said:


> Dude this program will ****ing destroy you. Do not add anything... how can you say there is not enough upper back work anyway? Do you think sumo doesn't use upper back? The weight hangs from your traps.
> 
> Run the program



Fair enough, I'll run a 29/30/31/32 (I think that's the right numbers?) 16 week cycle real soon.

Thanks for your help.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 5, 2017)

I have never grown as fast as when I started training for strength.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

ToolSteel said:


> I have never grown as fast as when I started training for strength.



Guess it's time to run some sheiko then.... time to get swole as fuark.


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## snake (Dec 5, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> Good advice. I'm going to take a deload next week, and cut out a lot of the extra volume and accessory work, and really focus on bench / squat / deadlift instead of the accessories.
> 
> Just wondering, how are you like J&T 2.0? I've heard really good things about it, and the guy who created it seems like a smart dude.



Okay, the Beta was a joke. I've been around before they started giving names to all these programs. My summer goal was always jacked and tan.

Find what works for you and you'll go far.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

snake said:


> Okay, the Beta was a joke. I've been around before they started giving names to all these programs. My summer goal was always jacked and tan.
> 
> Find what works for you and you'll go far.



Ah, got it &#55357;&#56834;. J&T 2.0 actually did have a beta, it was GZCL, so saying you did it from the beta actually made some sense


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 5, 2017)

PillarofBalance said:


> Dude this program will ****ing destroy you. Do not add anything... how can you say there is not enough upper back work anyway? Do you think sumo doesn't use upper back? The weight hangs from your traps.
> 
> Run the program



Last question (for now) - what would you recommend for length of rest periods between sets for the compounds?


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 6, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> Last question (for now) - what would you recommend for length of rest periods between sets for the compounds?



As much as you need.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 6, 2017)

DieYoungStrong said:


> As much as you need.



Okay great. Looking forward to starting it next week. It'll be perfect actually; I'll have more days off to study for finals / work over break and will be able to take out my frustrations with studying at the gym &#55357;&#56834;


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## Seeker (Dec 6, 2017)

Sheiko is a blast. Make sure you're eating well and getting the proper rest.  Something to add to what you are about to take in. It's the  experience itself. Its a very challenging program and every session would take me about two good hours to complete. There is no rushing through this. Make sure your gym bag is complete with all the tools you'll need to get through your workouts. Chalk, wraps, straps, tork, towel, extra shorts and shirt, good pair of squat shoes, deadlift socks, Gatorade, pop tarts. You will have a new understanding and total respect for strength training. I recall going through the deadlift to the knees, deficit deads, all the benching, then bsck to squats. Very technical too so you better be focused and bite anyone's head off who interrupts you. You will walk away from Sheiko stronger, thicker, and have a new knowledge and respect for the big three that will carry you over to a new level of training.


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## BigJohnny (Dec 6, 2017)

Seeker said:


> Sheiko is a blast. Make sure you're eating well and getting the proper rest.  Something to add to what you are about to take in. It's the  experience itself. Its a very challenging program and every session would take me about two good hours to complete. There is no rushing through this. Make sure your gym bag is complete with all the tools you'll need to get through your workouts. Chalk, wraps, straps, tork, towel, extra shorts and shirt, good pair of squat shoes, deadlift socks, Gatorade, pop tarts. You will have a new understanding and total respect for strength training. I recall going through the deadlift to the knees, deficit deads, all the benching, then bsck to squats. Very technical too so you better be focused and bite anyone's head off who interrupts you. You will walk away from Sheiko stronger, thicker, and have a new knowledge and respect for the big three that will carry you over to a new level of training.


Damn seek, you should be a salesman! Now I’m going to look into this Sheiko!


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## Seeker (Dec 6, 2017)

BigJohnny said:


> Damn seek, you should be a salesman! Now I’m going to look into this Sheiko!



At first I too thought oh fuk 3 days a week?? I'm a gym rat, i need the stimulus of the weights more often, but man let me tell you. Those 3 days were damn hard ass work and looked forward to those other days off. I spent my time off stretching, rolling, taking baths and just eating


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## BigJohnny (Dec 6, 2017)

Seeker said:


> At first I too thought oh fuk 3 days a week?? I'm a gym rat, i need the stimulus of the weights more often, but man let me tell you. Those 3 days were damn hard ass work and looked forward to those other days off. I spent my time off stretching, rolling, taking baths and just eating


I’ve been reading over the Sheiko programs since you posted! When this torn pec is healed I’m going for it. Looks Like fun/hell all rolled into one!


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## Seeker (Dec 6, 2017)

BigJohnny said:


> I’ve been reading over the Sheiko programs since you posted! When this torn pec is healed I’m going for it. Looks Like fun/hell all rolled into one!



Damn, torn pec? Sorry to hear man. I'm finally injury free after that fuked torn groin. Heal up bro.


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Dec 6, 2017)

Seeker said:


> Sheiko is a blast. Make sure you're eating well and getting the proper rest.  Something to add to what you are about to take in. It's the  experience itself. Its a very challenging program and every session would take me about two good hours to complete. There is no rushing through this. Make sure your gym bag is complete with all the tools you'll need to get through your workouts. Chalk, wraps, straps, tork, towel, extra shorts and shirt, good pair of squat shoes, deadlift socks, Gatorade, pop tarts. You will have a new understanding and total respect for strength training. I recall going through the deadlift to the knees, deficit deads, all the benching, then bsck to squats. Very technical too so you better be focused and bite anyone's head off who interrupts you. You will walk away from Sheiko stronger, thicker, and have a new knowledge and respect for the big three that will carry you over to a new level of training.



With winter break just around the corner, I think now is the perfect time to start this program. Can't wait to start.


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