# Bloodwork done, Test ordered



## Herculeshero (Sep 18, 2021)

Hey guys. I did an intro about a month ago and have been in the shadows, reading a lot since then. I was really intrigued by Cashouts posts on TRT and not doing it long term. I do understand that generally speaking TRT is for life but the clinic I’m going through(you can ask questions about experience) structured their program with HCG and using a “cleanse phase” after 20 weeks on. I got blood work done and don’t believe I’d be low enough for an Endo to prescribe me but I want to give it a shot to see if it helps improve my quality of life and I’m willing to pay the extra for pharm quality and support when needed for my first go around. 

Bloodwork is as follows:
Total test-302 ng/dL
Free test-9.9 pg/mL
Estradiol-<5. Too low for their panel I’m assuming
All of my other numbers, such as WBC and RBC all fall within range and look good. Cholesterol is a touch high but my diet needs to be adjusted for that and I’ll get back on my fish oil regimen. Also, my IGF-1 is at 298 ng/mL so that’s cool I guess. 

With all that being said I just put in my first order for my first 10 weeks. 200mg a week test c, 1mg Anastrozole twice weekly(will most likely cut this down given my current Estradiol levels), 600IU HCG sub q once weekly and then 1 mL of MIC plus B12 once weekly. 

With all that I’ve read about the TRT regimens some of you guys have done I’m very interested in going the “less is more” route and not doing the full 200mg shot once a week and possibly not even doing the full 200 if not necessary. Given my Estradiol I don’t think I’ll see too many sides if I did the full 200 but won’t know for sure until I start. Would it be beneficial to start with two 100mg shots 84 hours apart, hold off on the AI and still do the HCG and MIC according to schedule?
Any questions about other blood work results are welcomed since this is my first go around and you are all incredibly knowledgeable on this topic and I’m looking to get the most out of my experience and hope this is something that I can try to continue with an Endo so I’m not paying SO much for the products.


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## JoelR314 (Sep 24, 2021)

I have had several different prescribers over the last 6 years and they all seem to agree that ~75 weekly is standard. The first time I bumped up to 300 weekly  I slowly increased and topped out for a few weeks at 300. Having never used T before the TRT 300 was 100% a cycle with amazing gains. After 3 weeks at the high dose I tapered down. Your levels are low normal and your body isn't going to know how to use 200mg at once anyways. Too much will convert to estrogen. You should start at 75 and stay there for a while then check your levels. Then taper up to 200 for a cycle. There is a good chance that you will experience great gains, bit too high sex drive, sore nipples and so on. This would indicate 200 is a high dose and you would not want to live on a permanent cycle (you could but it's not a great idea). If you don't respond well to 75 and 200 isn't a big del and your levels come back less than 1000 then yes it's ok. This 200 weekly thing by endocronologist standards is ridiculous. Or if your levels are high normal on 75 then just stay there if you don't want to do a cycle.
I had one prescriber who let me stay at 125 weekly and 6 months later I tested higher than the test could go (over 1500). She left and the new doc was like Dude you are nuts if you think I'm letting you do 125 weekly?
So go slow. If you don't need 200 and you stay there for a long time there will be a crash when you go down to standard doses.
Some of these guys online on TRT are ex bodybuilders who may have done 1 or more grams weekly so 200 isn't as effective. Also yes breaking up whatever dose you take to bi-weekly is better. Your body doesn't naturally produce 75 on one day, that's a weekly average for a healthy male. It's also why 75 is the standard dose. Most Endo doctors do not play the "TRT for better gains" game. I mentioned better muscle growth once and she was like "no, I do not care about your physique, how is your sex drive and energy". She was letting me know what was up. I was allowed TRT because I tested around 150. 
I have had some terrible experiences back in the day with doctors getting really pissy about prohormones and side effects as well.


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## Send0 (Sep 24, 2021)

JoelR314 said:


> I have had several different prescribers over the last 6 years and they all seem to agree that ~75 weekly is standard. The first time I bumped up to 300 weekly  I slowly increased and topped out for a few weeks at 300. Having never used T before the TRT 300 was 100% a cycle with amazing gains. After 3 weeks at the high dose I tapered down. Your levels are low normal and your body isn't going to know how to use 200mg at once anyways. Too much will convert to estrogen. You should start at 75 and stay there for a while then check your levels. Then taper up to 200 for a cycle. There is a good chance that you will experience great gains, bit too high sex drive, sore nipples and so on. This would indicate 200 is a high dose and you would not want to live on a permanent cycle (you could but it's not a great idea). If you don't respond well to 75 and 200 isn't a big del and your levels come back less than 1000 then yes it's ok. This 200 weekly thing by endocronologist standards is ridiculous. Or if your levels are high normal on 75 then just stay there if you don't want to do a cycle.
> I had one prescriber who let me stay at 125 weekly and 6 months later I tested higher than the test could go (over 1500). She left and the new doc was like Dude you are nuts if you think I'm letting you do 125 weekly?
> So go slow. If you don't need 200 and you stay there for a long time there will be a crash when you go down to standard doses.
> Some of these guys online on TRT are ex bodybuilders who may have done 1 or more grams weekly so 200 isn't as effective. Also yes breaking up whatever dose you take to bi-weekly is better. Your body doesn't naturally produce 75 on one day, that's a weekly average for a healthy male. It's also why 75 is the standard dose. Most Endo doctors do not play the "TRT for better gains" game. I mentioned better muscle growth once and she was like "no, I do not care about your physique, how is your sex drive and energy". She was letting me know what was up. I was allowed TRT because I tested around 150.
> I have had some terrible experiences back in the day with doctors getting really pissy about prohormones and side effects as well.


Could you clarify and summarize you're feedback to the OP? You kind of are coming at this from all over the place, and it's difficult to follow your post or what you are suggesting because of that.


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## ATLRigger (Sep 24, 2021)

At least ur free to total is at 3%, an optimal percentage.  But low numbers yet. 
Lay off that Adex.


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## JoelR314 (Nov 8, 2021)

Send0 said:


> Could you clarify and summarize you're feedback to the OP? You kind of are coming at this from all over the place, and it's difficult to follow your post or what you are suggesting because of that.


75 mg weekly is a standard dose. A healthy 30 y.o. produces about 75mg weekly.
That is a good dose to start out with. If you go higher your body may not know what to do with the testosterone and will convert too much to estrogen and your levels may go over 1000. 
I found 75 weekly was a good dose to maintain normal levels. I usually tested around 5- 700. This went on for about 3 years.

After 3 years I got extra testosterone and ran a 300mg weekly  cycle (slowly tapered up over 4 weeks then maintained 300 for 4 weeks).
I experienced excellent gains, sore nipples, super high sex drive. So 300 for me was a full cycle rather than TRT.
I believe for someone new to TRT 200mg weekly  might also be more like a cycle rather than TRT.

So start with 75mg weekly, Test Cyp, then after 3 months get blood work and see where your levels are.
If near 1000 then you don't need to go higher. Also your doctor will not allow you to go higher once you approach 1000. 
If your levels are only 3-400 then you could raise your dose.
In the U.S. testosterone is measured as 300 low/normal to 1000 high/normal. It's nanograms per decaliter of blood (or something like that).

After the 300mg cycle I stayed  on 75 weekly for several more years and I had a new doctor take over and she allowed me to go up to 125mg weekly. I told her I really liked the results and was into fitness and lifting and she was like "oh then you could go up a bit"?
I had tested around 500 prior to the appointment with the new doctor. 6 months later I tested >1500. Other aspects of blood work were also high like red blood cell count. After that blood test I went back to the doctor another new endocronologist had taken over and she was not happy. She lowered me to 60mg weekly and remarked that 125 was a ridiculous dose. She was baffled why the previous doctor allowed me to go so high. At 60mg weekly my levels are still around 600. However it's  hard to say exactly where your levels are because they fluxuate radically.
I took a blood test 2 days after a shot and was 1300, then took another test 5 days after a shot and was 600. I was surprised because I didn't feel like my levels were 600. 

So start as low as possible. Even 60mg weekly could be a good dose for you. It's better to have to raise your dose than lower your dose and let all your red blood cells, creatinine, testosterone, estrogen, levels go high.
Obviously if you do an actual cycle then those things are going to get higher but that is just a controlled amount of time. TRT is long term so you want your blood work to be good for the majority of the time.


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## Send0 (Nov 8, 2021)

JoelR314 said:


> 75 mg weekly is a standard dose. A healthy 30 y.o. produces about 75mg weekly.
> That is a good dose to start out with. If you go higher your body may not know what to do with the testosterone and will convert too much to estrogen and your levels may go over 1000.
> I found 75 weekly was a good dose to maintain normal levels. I usually tested around 5- 700. This went on for about 3 years.
> 
> ...


We produce 75mg weekly with no ester attached. When you take exogenous Testosterone you have to factor in the ester weight. If you are using cypionate, then out of every 100mg you only get 70mg of testosterone.

This means that if you are taking 60mg of cypionate per week, then you are only getting 42 mg of actual testosterone.

Then you have to factor in aromatization; as we aromatize exogenous Testosterone differently from endogenous testosterone.

Most men here don't have your experience of being hypersensitive to exogenous Testosterone at low dosages. I think it's best to let blood work, and anecdotal feedback from the patient, dictate the correct dosage.


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## JoelR314 (Nov 8, 2021)

Send0 said:


> We produce 75mg weekly with no ester attached. When you take exogenous Testosterone you have to factor in the ester weight. If you are using cypionate, then out of every 100mg you only get 70mg of testosterone.
> 
> This means that if you are taking 60mg of cypionate per week, then you are only getting 42 mg of actual testosterone.
> 
> ...


I see, interesting.
Of course blood work and patient feedback will be the primary indicators of dose, he asked for opinions  based on experience so I just gave mine. 4 out of 5 (sounds like a commercial) doctors I've seen for TRT were adamant that 75 weekly is the standard dose. Of course I've only had limited experience but from that I am under the impression that endocrinologists generally stick to that dose.
Those 4 doctors claim all of their TRT patients are on that amount. I suspect the TRT clinics allow higher doses but Endocrinologists seem to be more conservative.
One time I mentioned I was having good results in the gym and the doctor was irritated and said " I do not care about your physique, please only tell me about your energy and sex drive". 
And another doctor was very surprised to learn I was on 125 weekly and was asking me "why were you allowed to use 125" as if it was unheard of?


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## Send0 (Nov 8, 2021)

JoelR314 said:


> I see, interesting.
> Of course blood work and patient feedback will be the primary indicators of dose, he asked for opinions  based on experience so I just gave mine. 4 out of 5 (sounds like a commercial) doctors I've seen for TRT were adamant that 75 weekly is the standard dose. Of course I've only had limited experience but from that I am under the impression that endocrinologists generally stick to that dose.
> Those 4 doctors claim all of their TRT patients are on that amount. I suspect the TRT clinics allow higher doses but Endocrinologists seem to be more conservative.
> One time I mentioned I was having good results in the gym and the doctor was irritated and said " I do not care about your physique, please only tell me about your energy and sex drive".
> And another doctor was very surprised to learn I was on 125 weekly and was asking me "why were you allowed to use 125" as if it was unheard of?


The endocrine society recommends starting between 75-100mg/week. However this is only a recommendation, sticking to this as a hard and fast rule is an out dated way of thinking and many endocrinologists (i.e. not doctors at TRT clinics) are changing their approach.

Unfortunately, your description of your experience with the doctors is not unusual. We are often treated like drug addicts for some reason, when all we want is to feel better. For some people they will feel better at 600ng/dL, and for others they will feel better at 1000ng/dL.

It's sad that we have to go through such scrutiny and criticism from the doctors we are trying to get help from.


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## JoelR314 (Nov 8, 2021)

Yes I have had many strange comments from medical personnel. Even once when I had to take an ambulance because of kidney stone pain the guy asked me what prescriptions I was taking and when I said testosterone he looked at me with his eyes wide and asked why I was taking testosterone? He was genuinely perplexed. I said hypergonadism and he  said "oh". But it was odd. Of course he was a super overweight middle-age man.  My Urologist recently called me to tell me I had a stone fragment remaining and he brought up the testosterone. He was asking weird questions about who was prescribing it (it's a different hospital network) and I could tell he didn't approve.
I did have one cool doctor anyways who recognized my commitment to a healthy lifestyle (except for a few runs on gear)) and was the fist to prescribe TRT. Before that she even gave me a beta-blocker during a 1AD run without a lecture. Compared to testosterone 1AD/androstenediol  was a nightmare of side effects.
I was considering a short cycle of a higher dose of testosterone and I was seeing a different PCP and inquired about a possible beta blocker if my BP went up and she said "you want me to prescribe you a medication to block effects from another medication?"
I said "maybe". She angrily told me to get a cuff and keep records and show her and she would consider it. I was too butthurt to deal with it.


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