# which cycle should I run??



## jyoung8j (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's my dilemma!!! No I'm not shredded but have made great progress over the yr by dropping 56lbs and adding a good amout of mass.. However I'm not sure if I should go with a full out bulk with test cyp deca dbol or a lean kinda recomp bulk of tpp npp mast.. I'm not happy with muscle size now as I wanna b bigger but also dnt wanna gain anymore fat either.. I'm right now 5'4" 187 and 15% bf.. I also dnt really bulk on tren..just fyi if someone was thinking tht..


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## Infantry87 (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm a tren supporter all the way since my last run with it but it's all about how you react to the compounds you run bro and what your body reacts the best to. Some people can run certain shit while others can even think about those compounds.


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## coltmc4545 (Oct 18, 2013)

Just keep your diet clean and you can run anything you want and bulk or cut. Diet determines everything. If you're worried about gaining fat, figure out your bmr and add 3-500 clean cals in. Then up it again when you stop gaining.


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## jyoung8j (Oct 18, 2013)

I used test e and npp last winter and got good gains.. leaned out and got size but hoping ill b happy this time around..


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## chicken wing (Oct 18, 2013)

listen to colt


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## don draco (Oct 18, 2013)

Colt and Infantry are spot on..


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## hulksmash (Oct 18, 2013)

coltmc4545 said:


> Just keep your diet clean and you can run anything you want and bulk or cut. Diet determines everything. If you're worried about gaining fat, figure out your bmr and add 3-500 clean cals in. Then up it again when you stop gaining.



^this

You can stay lean on cyp, dbol, deca cycle


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 18, 2013)

run the hulk death stack


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## jyoung8j (Oct 18, 2013)

Lets hear the hulk death stack..lol


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## hulksmash (Oct 18, 2013)

jyoung8j said:


> Lets hear the hulk death stack..lol



LOL

Jyoung, Bundy always picks on me

Budem zdorovy muy vor v zakone droog!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

I don't buy into the 'clean calories' BS but as has been mentioned, eat in a slight caloric surplus with proper macros and training and you can use any compound/cycle to do a slow bulk. Diet is what determines if a cycle is a cutting cycle or bulking cycle, not the specific compounds themselves.


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## jyoung8j (Oct 18, 2013)

So ill pick whts cheap!!! Lol


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

jyoung8j said:


> So ill pick whts cheap!!! Lol



That works or if you're feeling adventurous maybe choose a compound you've been wanting to try, or if you know you respond very well to some compound to with that. Your options are many here lol


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## jyoung8j (Oct 18, 2013)

Yea had good results with npp just wanted to see if deca was any diff..I still wanna put on 20pds lol


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## coltmc4545 (Oct 18, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> I don't buy into the 'clean calories' BS but as has been mentioned, eat in a slight caloric surplus with proper macros and training and you can use any compound/cycle to do a slow bulk. Diet is what determines if a cycle is a cutting cycle or bulking cycle, not the specific compounds themselves.



What clean calorie bs don't you buy into? Just wondering.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

coltmc4545 said:


> What clean calorie bs don't you buy into? Just wondering.



Can you objectively define a calorie that is 'clean'? What makes a calorie 'clean' and what makes it 'dirty'? What's the difference between a 'clean' calorie and a 'dirty' calorie?


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## Gravitysdefiance (Oct 18, 2013)

A clean diet is absent of fat and sodium


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

Gravitysdefiance said:


> A clean diet is absent of fat and sodium



So a clean diet can't have fish oil, eat salmon, steak, burgers, peanut butter, almond butter, whole milk, yogurt, avacados, olive oil, grape seed oil, coconut oil, pork, turkey, almonds, cashews, pistachios, macedamias, etc. And on top of that a clean diet can't have an essential nutrient and electrolyte? Excuse me while I choose the 'dirty' diet for myself


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

Also forgot to mention a diet devoid of fats and sodium will kill you. I'm sure the goal of bodybuilding is not to kill oneself.


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## HDH (Oct 18, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Can you objectively define a calorie that is 'clean'? What makes a calorie 'clean' and what makes it 'dirty'? What's the difference between a 'clean' calorie and a 'dirty' calorie?



I've heard this come up a few times. It just seems to be a new play on words to unsimplify things. 

As far as I knew clean and dirty meant the difference between lean meats, veggies, slower digesting carbs and of course foods lower in sodium compared to candy bars, saturated fats, trans fats, sugars, fast acting carbs, ect...

Some people even think a carb is just a carb and it doesn't matter what you eat as long as the macros are correct.

HDH


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## Gravitysdefiance (Oct 18, 2013)

HDH said:


> I've heard this come up a few times. It just seems to be a new play on words to unsimplify things.
> 
> 
> As far as I knew clean and dirty meant the difference between lean meats, veggies, slower digesting carbs and of course foods lower in sodium compared to candy bars, saturated fats, trans fats, sugars, fast acting carbs, ect...
> ...



,^^ yeah, that  ^^^^^


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## Rage Strength (Oct 18, 2013)

I'd go with npp and tpp. You could even add in some var for the hell of it and that'd be one kickass recomper. NPP actually tends to harden me up as strange as that is. Never ran mast. so I can't speak for that one. Just keep diet clean and you'll definately add some quality mass and drop bf.


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## coltmc4545 (Oct 18, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Can you objectively define a calorie that is 'clean'? What makes a calorie 'clean' and what makes it 'dirty'? What's the difference between a 'clean' calorie and a 'dirty' calorie?



I guess the difference is simple like HDH said. It's the difference between eating 5 oz of grilled chicken breast with 3 tbsp of PB and eating 5 oz of fried chicken. Same as eating brown rice vs the same carb equivalent of cinnamon rolls. You can't tell me a carb is a carb whether it's simple or complex. Same goes with fats. Huge difference when it comes to a bodybuilding diet. If that was the case more bodybuilders would be eating fried chicken and cake to cut. What I don't buy into is the "as long as it fits your daily macros" excuse. If I'm allowed 200g of carbs a day, I could eat 280 grams of oats throughout the day or I could eat gummy bears. Hmmmm, which one is going to build muscle and which ones going to make me a fat diabetic eventually?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 18, 2013)

HDH said:


> I've heard this come up a few times. It just seems to be a new play on words to unsimplify things.
> 
> As far as I knew clean and dirty meant the difference between lean meats, veggies, slower digesting carbs and of course foods lower in sodium compared to candy bars, saturated fats, trans fats, sugars, fast acting carbs, ect...
> 
> ...



It's as much a play on words as defining foods clean and dirty is. Why would you define a food as clean or dirty outside the context of a whole diet in the first place? Saturated fats are important for natural hormonal production, are you suggesting to remove them from a diet and hinder your endogenous hormones?

Protein and fat slow digestion and absorption so even a fast acting carb can be digested slowly. Unless you're diabetic why are you even worried about the absorption rate of carbohydrates? What biological differences or physiological ones occur when eating slow digesting carbs vs fast digesting carbs and to make the explanation easier we'll stipulate carbs will be ingested alone so fat and protein won't slow their digestion. 

It really matters little to body composition, the source of food. Macros and calories are important for that. Sources are important for micros which are required for good health but the source of macros has little if any impact on body composition. 

And to top it all off we have 3 different definitions of clean from 3 ppl...my point about objectivity is made.


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## hulksmash (Oct 18, 2013)

HDH said:


> I've heard this come up a few times. It just seems to be a new play on words to unsimplify things.
> 
> As far as I knew clean and dirty meant the difference between lean meats, veggies, slower digesting carbs and of course foods lower in sodium compared to candy bars, saturated fats, trans fats, sugars, fast acting carbs, ect...
> 
> ...



And others, like me, say calories is ALL that matters for LBM increase and fat loss...and all that other is BS  (as long as you get 100g-200g protein in)


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## hulksmash (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh, and ESPECIALLY if you're on gear

I guess that concept is too simple for folks..makes everyone mad they waste time dealing with fats/carbs/pro

Occam's razor and KISS is always used by me in everything, and that has saved me so much time and given me so many sucesses


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> Oh, and ESPECIALLY if you're on gear
> 
> I guess that concept is too simple for folks..makes everyone mad they waste time dealing with fats/carbs/pro
> 
> Occam's razor and KISS is always used by me in everything, and that has saved me so much time and given me so many sucesses



Occam's razor and KISS simple is used by me as well. I want to add that it's not just calories for lbm gain and specifically fat loss. Calories will make you gain or lose weight, macros and training will determine whetebr you gain muscle or fat or lose muscle or fat. I see you added your protein requirements at the end lol. Inagree with you!


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## hulksmash (Oct 19, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Occam's razor and KISS simple is used by me as well. I want to add that it's not just calories for lbm gain and specifically fat loss. Calories will make you gain or lose weight, macros and training will determine whetebr you gain muscle or fat or lose muscle or fat. I see you added your protein requirements at the end lol. Inagree with you!



I feel the only macro that matters is protein, and even then over-used (companies gotta make $$ though), especially with gear

As long as I get 50-200g protein and eat enough cals, i'll gain muscle..same with fat loss but calorie deficit

Last time I randomly added up carbs and fat I ate 500g carb and 300 or 400g of fat with 130g protein that day LOL

But, goin by Occams razor, everyones different though


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## Rage Strength (Oct 19, 2013)

The biggest difference between a clean calorie and "dirty" calorie is how processes it is.. Generally the less processed the food, the healthier and "cleaner" it will be.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Rage Strength said:


> The biggest difference between a clean calorie and "dirty" calorie is how processes it is.. Generally the less processed the food, the healthier and "cleaner" it will be.



So whey protein, the multi vitamin you take, tuna fish, oatmeal, milk, yogurt/Greek yogurt, cereal, granola, casein protein, pre workout drinks, cheese, canned beans, canned vegetables, canned chicken, salt you use to season your food, peanut butter, almond butter, cashew butter, tomato paste, tomato sauce, etc are not healthy and dirty? Excuse me once again while I choose the 'less healthy and dirty' foods.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Now we have a fourth definition of clean from a fourth person. This isn't a huge board in terms of traffic yet; I wonder how many different definitions we can get if we went from board to board and asked this same question? I guarantee we'd have many different definitions from just as many different people. Can you not see the lack of objectivity in trying to define foods in this manner? Everyone has a different opinion and science, in its numerous attempts to label foods, has consistently failed to this day. Furthermore, removing an isolated food from the context of the whole diet and attempting to label it is ridiculous anyway. Why is chicken breast 'clean'? You can't eat just chicken breast and expect to live for a very long time. Fats are essential to human survival. What about micros not found in chicken breast? Where will we get vitamin C from? What about vitamin D? What about minerals? Do you see how stupid it is to remove one food and label it?


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## hulksmash (Oct 19, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Now we have a fourth definition of clean from a fourth person. This isn't a huge board in terms of traffic yet; I wonder how many different definitions we can get if we went from board to board and asked this same question? I guarantee we'd have many different definitions from just as many different people. Can you not see the lack of objectivity in trying to define foods in this manner? Everyone has a different opinion and science, in its numerous attempts to label foods, has consistently failed to this day. Furthermore, removing an isolated food from the context of the whole diet and attempting to label it is ridiculous anyway. Why is chicken breast 'clean'? You can't eat just chicken breast and expect to live for a very long time. Fats are essential to human survival. What about micros not found in chicken breast? Where will we get vitamin C from? What about vitamin D? What about minerals? Do you see how stupid it is to remove one food and label it?



If you keep context, then the definitions become clear

Foods avoided in specific diets= "dirty" foods

Foods negatively associated with health= "dirty" foods

The confusion arises from the amalgamation of those two groups, which commonly happens on bb'ing forums lol

If people would keep it _simple_, there'd be no problems

Especially on the health side-to have a LONG, healthy life is fully dictated by genetics, NOT diet

That's why ALL centenerians don't do ANYTHING for a long life (like daily alcohol and cigarettes) and live past 110 years

That's another issue though


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> If you keep context, then the definitions become clear
> 
> Foods avoided in specific diets= "dirty" foods
> 
> ...



I'm not going to lie, I rarely drink alcohol but I'm a smoker (of everything really). I realize it's not the best thing to do but then again death is the only guaranteed thing in life and I'm ready when my time is called. My idea of simple is this:

Calculate how many calories you need from BMR and TDEE calculators. Get 1g/lb BW of protein and .4g/lb BW of dietary fat. The rest of your calories can be carbs, more protein, more fat, or any combination of the three. Choose mainly whole and minimally processed food sources to cover your micronutrient needs. But only eat the foods you enjoy. There's no reason to stuff your face with cottage ch**se if you hate the shit lol. There's also no reason to avoid ice cream or a dessert like the plague bc it's got simple sugars and whatever other nonsense one can come up with to avoid eating it. Hell, I love brownies ad am eating them a few times a week ON A CUT and still dropping fat. But OMG the brownies are high GI, spike insulin, carbs are the devil, it's processed etc. So what? My needs in both calories and macros and micros is being met, I eat a wide variety of foods so why should I not eat something I want to that I can reasonably fit into my diet? Bc Gary Taubes tells me sugar is the root of evil ad all fat gain? No thank you, I'll continue seeing results and using my brain while idiots like him continue to spout bS


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 19, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> I'm not going to lie, I rarely drink alcohol but I'm a smoker (of everything really). I realize it's not the best thing to do but then again death is the only guaranteed thing in life and I'm ready when my time is called. My idea of simple is this:
> 
> Calculate how many calories you need from BMR and TDEE calculators. Get 1g/lb BW of protein and .4g/lb BW of dietary fat. The rest of your calories can be carbs, more protein, more fat, or any combination of the three. Choose mainly whole and minimally processed food sources to cover your micronutrient needs. But only eat the foods you enjoy. There's no reason to stuff your face with cottage ch**se if you hate the shit lol. There's also no reason to avoid ice cream or a dessert like the plague bc it's got simple sugars and whatever other nonsense one can come up with to avoid eating it. Hell, I love brownies ad am eating them a few times a week ON A CUT and still dropping fat. But OMG the brownies are high GI, spike insulin, carbs are the devil, it's processed etc. So what? My needs in both calories and macros and micros is being met, I eat a wide variety of foods so why should I not eat something I want to that I can reasonably fit into my diet? Bc Gary Taubes tells me sugar is the root of evil ad all fat gain? No thank you, I'll continue seeing results and using my brain while idiots like him continue to spout bS



do u smoke crack since u said" a smoker of everything"?


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 19, 2013)

now enough with the bullshit lets get back to the question...I think u should just run test and find what foods work for your body u seem to be confused on a few things like compounds and diets.This takes years of playing around with food to understand.keep lifting all the time and eat health CLEAN foods like those two fukers up there are arguing about and in time u will have the look u want..and hey if u dont big fukin deal we all still look better then the average shmo off streets..It all comes down to pussy are u getting some hot ass then its all good baby .. dropin nuts on bitchs


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> do u smoke crack since u said" a smoker of everything"?



I should have clarified, no not crack lol.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> now enough with the bullshit lets get back to the question...I think u should just run test and find what foods work for your body u seem to be confused on a few things like compounds and diets.This takes years of playing around with food to understand.keep lifting all the time and eat health CLEAN foods like those two fukers up there are arguing about and in time u will have the look u want..and hey if u dont big fukin deal we all still look better then the average shmo off streets..It all comes down to pussy are u getting some hot ass then its all good baby .. dropin nuts on bitchs



I'm just arguing clean food and dirty food bc in an objective analysis it's impossible to define foods as such. At the end of the day I agree it comes down to pussy or lack thereof. There's more to nuts than just dropping them on girls lol


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 19, 2013)

bahahahahahaha I love it


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> bahahahahahaha I love it



It's a quick way to boost their protein intake (I'll use the term 'clean' protein this one time lol)  or if your girl wants a pearl necklace for your anniversary or something, why spend money at the jewelry store when 'homemade' is the best


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 19, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> It's a quick way to boost their protein intake (I'll use the term 'clean' protein this one time lol)  or if your girl wants a pearl necklace for your anniversary or something, why spend money at the jewelry store when 'homemade' is the best



i like to eat dead animal and a sweet potato with some greens on side.I have always done well with this style diet.Ill drink shakes i eat a ton of oatmeal.Whole clean foods and very hard training with some good steroids is all i need.If your not gonna be a pro really no need to drive your self crazy with all the #..ps i love to smoke too


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> i like to eat dead animal and a sweet potato with some greens on side.I have always done well with this style diet.Ill drink shakes i eat a ton of oatmeal.Whole clean foods and very hard training with some good steroids is all i need.If your not gonna be a pro really no need to drive your self crazy with all the #..ps i love to smoke too



What I would advocate is to eat the foods you enjoy in quantities that meet your calorie and macro goals. If someone wants a food that is deemed 'dirty' by some, will it kill your progress when it would account for so little of your daily or weekly intake? I love dead animals and veggies so I eat a lot of them. I also like brownies (it's an addiction I'm willing to admit) so instead of gorging on brownies and completely ****ing up my calorie allotment, I eat them in moderation or eat more than usual and spend an extra 5min on the elliptical or prowler sled to burn that excess calories. No harm no foul and the fact that it's processed and/or a simple carb has no bearing on my body composition or long term health when taken in the context of my compete diet. One cannot make progress if they're miserable on their diet and inconsistent bc the food choices they picked were labeled 'clean' by some. 

I just finished my 6whole eggs, oatmeal with honey and a bit of dark chocolate mixed in and blueberries. Off to the gym in a bit to lift some heavy ass things and sweat and bleed lol.


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 19, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> What I would advocate is to eat the foods you enjoy in quantities that meet your calorie and macro goals. If someone wants a food that is deemed 'dirty' by some, will it kill your progress when it would account for so little of your daily or weekly intake? I love dead animals and veggies so I eat a lot of them. I also like brownies (it's an addiction I'm willing to admit) so instead of gorging on brownies and completely ****ing up my calorie allotment, I eat them in moderation or eat more than usual and spend an extra 5min on the elliptical or prowler sled to burn that excess calories. No harm no foul and the fact that it's processed and/or a simple carb has no bearing on my body composition or long term health when taken in the context of my compete diet. One cannot make progress if they're miserable on their diet and inconsistent bc the food choices they picked were labeled 'clean' by some.
> 
> I just finished my 6whole eggs, oatmeal with honey and a bit of dark chocolate mixed in and blueberries. Off to the gym in a bit to lift some heavy ass things and sweat and bleed lol.


i wont lie i love a brownie..eat what makes u happy im all for that..pob loves poptarts


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 19, 2013)

POB reminds me of Lucky Charms...I always think I'm going to find him at the ed of the rainbow waiting for me but I'm always left disappointed . Where are you POB??? Complete my rainbow brother hahahaha


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## hulksmash (Oct 20, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> now enough with the bullshit lets get back to the question...I think u should just run test and find what foods work for your body u seem to be confused on a few things like compounds and diets.This takes years of playing around with food to understand.keep lifting all the time and eat health CLEAN foods like those two fukers up there are arguing about and in time u will have the look u want..and hey if u dont big fukin deal we all still look better then the average shmo off streets..It all comes down to pussy are u getting some hot ass then its all good baby .. dropin nuts on bitchs



I E̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶y̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶g̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶h̶u̶g̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶x̶ ̶p̶a̶c̶k̶

Slapped myself because the majority can NOT eat whatever the hell and be lean and huge, gear or not

Listen to muy droog bundy


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## HDH (Oct 20, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> I E̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶y̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶g̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶h̶u̶g̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶x̶ ̶p̶a̶c̶k̶
> 
> Slapped myself because the majority can NOT eat whatever the hell and be lean and huge, gear or not
> 
> Listen to muy droog bundy



There has been a lot said in this thread, more than I care to reply to. Pretty much longer versions of what has already been posted.

I will say that I see there are different views of what clean and dirty can mean to people. What I stated was more of a good/bad that people went by for decades. 

You couldn't imagine the smile on my face when I saw this post as the last one posted. I know guys that eat shit I don't dare look at.

I have been saved a $hit load of time because this post states what I thought was the obvious, everyone is different. Not everyone can eat what they want because everyone is different.

There are three different body types with 88 yes, 88 subtypes. Once again proving great differences. 

Besides the body types and their sub types, people range from slow to mid to fast muscle growth and or fat gain. There are fast metabolisms, slow metabolisms, Different types of muscle cells, some have more some have less. Same goes with fat cells. Even different levels of endurance. 

By saying a calorie is just a calorie, that would mean anyone could bulk on sugar packets and trans fats if the macros were just right. Extreme example, yes but it is an example none the less that makes "a calorie is just a calorie" hard to swallow.

If a calorie is just a calorie then it shouldn't make a difference during contest prep right? Few days out from a show, sugar packets and trans fats because a calorie is just a calorie. 

"I'm gonna get shredded for this show at 6%, hand me those sugar packets and put that broccoli and those oats away"... Right?... Wrong. 

I'm mainly saying this because I know what does and doesn't work for me. I tried the softer, easier eat what I wanted to with the correct macros and got less than satisfactory results compared to eating my version of clean.

I was born endo so I know what it's like NOT to be able to eat just anything.

I don't really know what else to say. There is nothing anyone can say to change my view because I live it every day. It's called experience. It's not something one can get from a book.

HDH


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## hulksmash (Oct 20, 2013)

HDH said:


> By saying a calorie is just a calorie, that would mean anyone could bulk on sugar packets and trans fats if the macros were just right.



Anyone can. I said OVER AND OVER:

-minimum intake of fat/vitamins/minerals essential to health
-minimum 75g-200g protein daily
-Deficit if cutting
-surplus if bulking

Calories are all that matter.



> If a calorie is just a calorie then it shouldn't make a difference during contest prep right? Few days out from a show, sugar packets and trans fats because a calorie is just a calorie.



*CONTEST PREP IS COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE WITH BASIC BODY COMPOSITION PROTOCOLS*

Contest Prep:
-WATER MANIPULATION
-METABOLISM MANIPULATION 
-INFLAMMATION MANIPULATION

it is idioticy to EVEN BRING UP CONTEST PREP when discussing calories are all that truly matter.

The only time EVERYTHING matters, even swelling due to inflammatory processes, IS CONTEST PREP!!

That argument only serves to be a strawman-thus, it is a moot point that should NOT even be brought up.



> I don't really know what else to say. There is nothing anyone can say to change my view because I live it every day. It's called experience. It's not something one can get from a book.



My experience-that's why I espouse others to K.I.S.S.

Calories only matter-once I realized this, I saved TONS OF MONEY, TIME, and FOOD.

Only 3 rules:
-minimum fat/vitamin/mineral intake for life
-50-200g daily
-deficit or surplus dependent on goal.

Same with training (remember my focus is BODYBUILDING):

-Only need to hit all body groups ONCE a week
-Only 1 or 2 days per week (so long as all body parts are hit in the 1-2 days)
-Only focus is muscle damage (which is best done with heavy, partial reps, 12-15 reps)

Same with gear (remember my goal is HUGE 70s size-a la SERGIO OLIVA)
-Only 2 injectables are needed (blasting allows temporary 1 oral+2 injectables)
-never come off
-Blasts are no less than 1gram/week and last 16-20 weeks

Keep things as simple as you can
Keep the FASTEST and most EFFECIENT paths to your goal

Have fun guys


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## Jada (Oct 20, 2013)

Really nice inputs in this thread, but young I'll say why not run test  bold cyp and dbol , I can't remember u runnin that cycle. Plus for what I've read eq gives u nice appetite


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## jyoung8j (Oct 20, 2013)

Thinking I'm just going to do the usual bulk and eat as clean as I can.. test e and deca.. now just wonder if should run dbol androl or superdrol??  Never ran drols b4 whts ur guys exp with them..


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 20, 2013)

jyoung8j said:


> Thinking I'm just going to do the usual bulk and eat as clean as I can.. test e and deca.. now just wonder if should run dbol androl or superdrol??  Never ran drols b4 whts ur guys exp with them..



use dbols ddt cycle is awesome


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## HDH (Oct 20, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *HDH*
> 
> 
> 
> By saying a calorie is just a calorie, that  would mean anyone could bulk on sugar packets and trans fats if the  macros were just right.



 Anyone can. I said OVER AND OVER:

-minimum intake of fat/vitamins/minerals essential to health
-minimum 75g-200g protein daily
-Deficit if cutting
-surplus if bulking

Calories are all that matter.

You have heard absolutely nothing I've said. I'm talking about quality gains. You know, muscle to fat ratio?? Calories are not all that matter. You need to go back and reread my whole post because you have skated around the whole point so you could just repeat yourself.

People respond differently. You missed the part about where I tried it and it's not for everyone??





> If a calorie is just a calorie then it shouldn't make a difference  during contest prep right? Few days out from a show, sugar packets and  trans fats because a calorie is just a calorie.


 

*CONTEST PREP IS COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE WITH BASIC BODY COMPOSITION PROTOCOLS*

Contest Prep:
-WATER MANIPULATION
-METABOLISM MANIPULATION 
-INFLAMMATION MANIPULATION

it is idioticy to EVEN BRING UP CONTEST PREP when discussing calories are all that truly matter.

The only time EVERYTHING matters, even swelling due to inflammatory processes, IS CONTEST PREP!!

That argument only serves to be a strawman-thus, it is a moot point that should NOT even be brought up.

You need to slow your role jackass, you might as well just call me an idiot. You don't think guys aren't fighting to lose those last few LBS up to the show? The last few that can really make a difference?

You are going to have to do better than that. Everything you have said so far in this reply has been a repeated waste of time and board space.



> I don't really know what else to say. There is nothing anyone can  say to change my view because I live it every day. It's called  experience. It's not something one can get from a book.


 

My experience-that's why I espouse others to K.I.S.S.

Calories only matter-once I realized this, I saved TONS OF MONEY, TIME, and FOOD.

Only 3 rules:
-minimum fat/vitamin/mineral intake for life
-50-200g daily
-deficit or surplus dependent on goal.

Same with training (remember my focus is BODYBUILDING):

-Only need to hit all body groups ONCE a week
-Only 1 or 2 days per week (so long as all body parts are hit in the 1-2 days)
-Only focus is muscle damage (which is best done with heavy, partial reps, 12-15 reps)

Same with gear (remember my goal is HUGE 70s size-a la SERGIO OLIVA)
-Only 2 injectables are needed (blasting allows temporary 1 oral+2 injectables)
-never come off
-Blasts are no less than 1gram/week and last 16-20 weeks

Keep things as simple as you can
Keep the FASTEST and most EFFECIENT paths to your goal

Have fun guys 

That's right, YOUR EXPERIENCE. One day when you finally realize you don't know everything, and keep in mind when you know everything you lose your ability to learn, you will realize that there is more to it than what you know or think you know. You will see that different people will have different experiences than yourself.

When you are able to combine what you read in books along with studies, see other's experiences and your own then are able to really see how something can or can't work, even for some but not for others, you will truly have learned something.

I gotta be honest bud, know it all guys like you are the reason I gave up my mod position here and stay away from the big boards. I'm getting to old to argue with walls. I've got better things to do than waste my time with someone that won't listen.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, I'm saying it doesn't work for me.

I hope you get it one day.

HDH


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## hulksmash (Oct 21, 2013)

HDH said:


> You have heard absolutely nothing I've said. I'm talking about quality gains. You know, muscle to fat ratio?? Calories are not all that matter. You need to go back and reread my whole post because you have skated around the whole point so you could just repeat yourself.




Your premise="if calories only mattered...people should be able to bulk on sugar packets..."

THEY CAN! 

you COMPLETELY just ignored your premise

 now you're saying its about "quality gains" and NOT just gaining LBM.

ONLY CALORIES MATTER...it was a simple rebuttal to your premise and I gave 3 criteria for that rule and was a sound defense against your premise 

Now youre changing the premise, and getting mad at me because you did



> You need to slow your role ass, you might as well just call me an idiot. You don't think guys aren't fighting to lose those last few LBS up to the show? The last few that can really make a difference?




First-you are NOT an idiot, and NO ONE here is...statements can be stupid to me, but no UG is an idiot or anything bad for that matter.

YOU IGNORED THE POINT!!

CONTEST PREP CAN *NOT APPLY TO "CALORIES ONLY MATTER"*

Contest prep is *NOT ABOUT STRICTLY GAINING LBM AND LOSING BODY FAT*!

It is about WATER CONTROL, SWELLING CONTROL WITH SYNTHOL, INSULIN CONTROL, AND BLOOD VOLUME CONTROL

CALORIES=ONLY THING MATTERS applies because fat loss/LBM gain is worked in the offseason and right before weeks out prep...



> I gotta be honest bud, know it all guys like you are the reason I gave up my mod position here and stay away from the big boards. I'm getting to old to argue with walls. I've got better things to do than waste my time with someone that won't listen....
> 
> I hope you get it one day.




Thats why I wrote, "ITS MY EXPERIENCE.." 

People see that, then say-oh, its HIS experience; I'll take from it and experiment with things"

*YOU did not listen*

YOU gave me a premise.

 I gave a rebuttal: for gaining LBM or losing fat, calories only matter, with 3 rules.

I showed how KISS not only appliees to calories, but also GEAR and TRAINING.

I SAID IT WAS MY experience so others can take and run with it.

I did not call you names (I did say a THINKING PATTERB was idioticy)

Sorry you got mad, i hope i didnt make it more so

Everyone take what you can from my posts

Sorry for being a know it all if I come as such

Have fun and stay healthy guys


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm not here to make anyone feel like an idiot. I just like open and honest discussion in hopes of furthering the knowledge pool. Indulge me if you would be so kind and let's see if we can all learn something. My goal isn't to make you change your mind or force you to eat foods you don't enjoy, my goal is to stop these rampant myths and let ppl make informed decisions about their diet and nutrition and possibly include foods they love in their diet but are afraid to bc of these persistent bodybuilding/supplement marketing myths. 




HDH said:


> There has been a lot said in this thread, more than I care to reply to. Pretty much longer versions of what has already been posted.
> 
> I will say that I see there are different views of what clean and dirty can mean to people. What I stated was more of a good/bad that people went by for decades.



This is my point exactly about labeling foods clean and dirty, you cannot do so objectively bc everyone has her own definition of clean and dirty. Science has tried to and failed. Bodybuilders have tried to and continually contradict themselves. You have your definition I have mine, and Joe down the street has his own. How can you define a term that has a different meaning to everybody? Why would you bang to dichotomize food into a clean or dirty category or a good and bad category, what purpose would that serve? Why would you judge individual foods outside the context of the whole diet? Every food item can be dirty outside the context of the whole diet be it candy canes or broccoli.

How can you "good/bad that people went by for decades" when there is no such thing. In the early 80s low fat and no fat diets were the fad and fat was dirty. Enter the 90s and the scare of protein on kidney health left people with the idea that prtoein was dirty. Enter more recent times and now carbs make you fat. Or was it carbs make you fat after 6pm? Was it 8pm? My point is every decade or so there's a new definition of clean/dirty or good/bad. Saying good/bad as people went by for decades is not based on reality. 



> You couldn't imagine the smile on my face when I saw this post as the last one posted. I know guys that eat shit I don't dare look at.i
> 
> I have been saved a $hit load of time because this post states what I thought was the obvious, everyone is different. Not everyone can eat what they want because everyone is different.



Why does everyone being different change the foods we can eat? Food and nutrition should be based upon our needs and include foods we enjoy eating. Saying people eat shit you wouldn't even look at is a bit melodramatic don't you think? 



> There are three different body types with 88 yes, 88 subtypes. Once again proving great differences.
> 
> Besides the body types and their sub types, people range from slow to mid to fast muscle growth and or fat gain. There are fast metabolisms, slow metabolisms, Different types of muscle cells, some have more some have less. Same goes with fat cells. Even different levels of endurance.



What are these 3 body types and the 88 subtypes? The fast and slow muscle/fat gains is called nutrient partitioning or p-ratio. All it means is how much of a calorie goes towards muscle building or fat storage. He's everyone has different nutrient partitioning and metabolisms but all that really changes is the amount of calories or macros you eat, it has nothing to do with sources of those macros (unless a medical condition exists that necessitates otherwise like diabetes). All you have proven with this statement is that we are all different, not that the sources of where we get our macros and calories needs to be different. And if those 3 body types are what I think they are, I hope you clarify that point, then those three body types are one of the biggest loads of crap in the fitness world. 



> By saying a calorie is just a calorie, that would mean anyone could bulk on sugar packets and trans fats if the macros were just right. Extreme example, yes but it is an example none the less that makes "a calorie is just a calorie" hard to swallow.



First off, you were the first one here saying a calorie is a calorie. No one said that in here until you did. Secondly, as I'm trying to explain, is that macros are indeed important for lbm considerations. No one said macros weren't important. Thirdly, your bulking dieting sugar and transfats is technically deficient in protein and will kill you eventually so no, no one could bulk on that. Fourthly, that's an appeal to an extreme, a logical fallacy and one that doesn't need to be debated since it's a fallacy. And finally, would you bulk on broccoli and olive oil? "Extreme example, yes but it's an example that makes "clean/dirty" foods hard to swallow . 



> If a calorie is just a calorie then it shouldn't make a difference during contest prep right? Few days out from a show, sugar packets and trans fats because a calorie is just a calorie.



Again, no one said a calorie is just a calorie, only you have. Then contest prep is more than about just lbm and fat as Hulk has pointed out. Manipulation of many variables is necessary to come in stage ready. CAlorie restrictions are far tighter when getting contest prep and the only thing limiting your food choices is the fact that you're only taking in so little calories, the source of those calories again is irrelevant on body composition once needs have been met. 

Few days out from a show, NOTHING but broccoli and olive oil bc those are clean foods right? Again you're making the same fallacy by appealing to an extreme. This does nothing to help your argument and only serves to weaken it if that's the only thing you have to attack the counter argument. 



> "I'm gonna get shredded for this show at 6%, hand me those sugar packets and put that broccoli and those oats away"... Right?... Wrong.



"Watch me as I get shredded for this show at 6%, hand me that broccoli and olive oil, put that steak away"

We can keep making the same fallacy all day on top of red herring arguments my man, again this does not help prove anything. 



> I'm mainly saying this because I know what does and doesn't work for me. I tried the softer, easier eat what I wanted to with the correct macros and got less than satisfactory results compared to eating my version of clean.
> 
> I was born endo so I know what it's like NOT to be able to eat just anything.



There's no such thing as endo. What works for you works for everyone else, just in different quantities. You may require more calories or less, you may be bigger or smaller, you may need more protein or less, that changes. Whether you get protein from a shake or a steak doesn't change. Sources of food are sources of micros, macros, and calories. Nothing more nothing less. You've made my point again, "your version of clean". How many versions are there? How can you tell someone to eat clean? Do you mean your version of clean? POB's version of clean? My version of clean? And according to you everyone is different and this changes what works so how do you know clean works for OP here? Maybe bc he's different dirty is the only thing that will work. See how asinine labeling foods as clean and dirty can become? There is no standard objective definition thus they should not be used as labels. 



> I don't really know what else to say. There is nothing anyone can say to change my view because I live it every day. It's called experience. It's not something one can get from a book.
> 
> HDH



So you admit to being closed minded and decide to describe it as experience? That's a warped view to hold. Don't you wish the general population had a more accurate picture of AAS and it's users and that they wouldn't shun us or look at us differently like they do now? Or should they be as closed-minded as you make yourself out to be and have them say "oh it's only roid rage, you can't change my mind it's experience".


----------



## hulksmash (Oct 21, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> use dbols ddt cycle is awesome



+1 on this since it's a bulk


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## jyoung8j (Oct 21, 2013)

Well aiming more as a lean bulk.. however u all say its base on wht I stick in my mouth... lol no gay jokes!!


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## Infantry87 (Oct 21, 2013)

Personally I love adrol instead of dbol. Dbol honestly makes me bloat like a bitch.


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## HDH (Oct 21, 2013)

Your premise="if calories only mattered...people should be able to bulk on sugar packets..."

THEY CAN! 

you COMPLETELY just ignored your premise

 now you're saying its about "quality gains" and NOT just gaining LBM.

ONLY CALORIES MATTER...it was a simple rebuttal to your premise and I gave 3 criteria for that rule and was a sound defense against your premise 

Now youre changing the premise, and getting mad at me because you did

First of all, I got mad because you said "it is idioticy to EVEN BRING UP CONTEST PREP" we can resort to name calling if that's what you want. Do you think because you worded it differently, it changes the meaning? No. Not everyone will let you just talk to them any kind of way.

And don't think I didn't notice how you changed what I said from jackass to- "You need to slow your role ass, you might as well just call me an idiot."
 
Glad you did it, it shows everyone what kind of integrity you really have. Besides, I would have said asshole, not ass.

It's obvious that we have two different ideas of bulking. I don't bulk to put on unnecessary body fat and neither should anyone else.. If you're arguing that eating bigmacs, brownies and fried chicken (for brother shine), will put weight on you then you are absolutely correct. When I talk about bulking, I'm talking about efficiently. Meaning not having to spend a lot of time on a cut.

I see we're not on the same page with what a bulk means. 

You can ask around about me, over the years my rep has been about looking out for the new guy for many years and trying to make sure they get the correct info. Sometimes half the info can make it incorrect when there is room for a new guy to assume. When you say a calorie is just a calorie, the new guy that doesn't know much can take that as eat anything and it's ok. 

Maybe I should have been more specific at the beginning but I didn't think I was dealing with new guys in this conversation.

You should be more specific so new people don't base bulking diets on bigmacs and ice cream. I'm living proof that a calorie is just a calorie is not true for all. I have to be careful and choose my diet wisely. As I have stated, fast carbs and bad fats will make a BF% difference to me. Not all of us do this as a hobby only. Every little bit counts. A lot of little bits can equal something on a bigger scale.


First-you are NOT an idiot, and NO ONE here is...statements can be stupid to me, but no UG is an idiot or anything bad for that matter.

YOU IGNORED THE POINT!!

CONTEST PREP CAN *NOT APPLY TO "CALORIES ONLY MATTER"*

Contest prep is *NOT ABOUT STRICTLY GAINING LBM AND LOSING BODY FAT*!

It is about WATER CONTROL, SWELLING CONTROL WITH SYNTHOL, INSULIN CONTROL, AND BLOOD VOLUME CONTROL

CALORIES=ONLY THING MATTERS applies because fat loss/LBM gain is worked in the offseason and right before weeks out prep...

Are we not discussing a calorie is just a calorie?  Contest prep starts for some months out. But you're saying nobody is trying to lose BF right up to the show? 

Besides, I was talking about the weight loss aspect of prep and you turned it into something different because you really have no defense.


Thats why I wrote, "ITS MY EXPERIENCE.." 

People see that, then say-oh, its HIS experience; I'll take from it and experiment with things"

This discussion will not go anywhere if we are not on the same page.

*YOU did not listen*

YOU gave me a premise.

 I gave a rebuttal: for gaining LBM or losing fat, calories only matter, with 3 rules.

I showed how KISS not only appliees to calories, but also GEAR and TRAINING.

I SAID IT WAS MY experience so others can take and run with it.

I did not call you names (I did say a THINKING PATTERB was idioticy)

Sorry you got mad, i hope i didnt make it more so

Everyone take what you can from my posts

Sorry for being a know it all if I come as such

Have fun and stay healthy guys

This convo is starting to bore me. I love how you like to cheer everyone on at the end of your posts. Remember, they are reading both sides weather you can see what's being said or not.

I'm going to repost this last part that you have conveniently skipped over. Perhaps you should read it again since it was the most important part of the post-

That's right, YOUR EXPERIENCE. One day when you  finally realize you don't know everything, and keep in mind when you  know everything you lose your ability to learn, you will realize that there is more to it than what you know or think you know. You will see that different people will have different experiences than yourself.

When you are able to combine what you read in books along with studies,  see other's experiences and your own then are able to really see how  something can or can't work, even for some but not for others, you will  truly have learned something.

I gotta be honest bud, know it all guys like you are the reason I gave  up my mod position here and stay away from the big boards. I'm getting  to old to argue with walls. I've got better things to do than waste my  time with someone that won't listen.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, I'm saying it doesn't work for me.

I hope you get it one day.


----------



## HDH (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm not here to make anyone feel like an idiot. I just like open and honest discussion in hopes of furthering the knowledge pool. Indulge me if you would be so kind and let's see if we can all learn something. My goal isn't to make you change your mind or force you to eat foods you don't enjoy, my goal is to stop these rampant myths and let ppl make informed decisions about their diet and nutrition and possibly include foods they love in their diet but are afraid to bc of these persistent bodybuilding/supplement marketing myths. 

No worries, I don't feel like an idiot, I just don't like being called one.

After your reading everything in this thread so far, I'm assuming you know I'm talking about the types of gains and not just gaining. 

I don't see where this is a myth for everyone. I monitor my diet closely. I was a fat ass a good part of my life. I need to stick to what I consider clean, you know my personal definition because I have stated it, it's what works for me and keeps my BF% lower. I know because I tried both.

I hear what your saying but it doesn't apply to everyone. I know this from personal experience.


This is my point exactly about labeling foods clean and dirty, you cannot do so objectively bc everyone has her own definition of clean and dirty. Science has tried to and failed. Bodybuilders have tried to and continually contradict themselves. You have your definition I have mine, and Joe down the street has his own. How can you define a term that has a different meaning to everybody? Why would you bang to dichotomize food into a clean or dirty category or a good and bad category, what purpose would that serve? Why would you judge individual foods outside the context of the whole diet? Every food item can be dirty outside the context of the whole diet be it candy canes or broccoli.

I thought we agreed on this after I read what others thought it meant.

How can you "good/bad that people went by for decades" when there is no such thing. In the early 80s low fat and no fat diets were the fad and fat was dirty. Enter the 90s and the scare of protein on kidney health left people with the idea that prtoein was dirty. Enter more recent times and now carbs make you fat. Or was it carbs make you fat after 6pm? Was it 8pm? My point is every decade or so there's a new definition of clean/dirty or good/bad. Saying good/bad as people went by for decades is not based on reality. 

You are talking about fad type stuff, you said it yourself. How many fad diets do you know work? So why bring it up? There was a short period in those decades where people were trying new things. Protein was never considered dirty. It just got limits on how much we need for it to be affective. 

As far as carbs, yes they can and will make you fat. You have got to remember that bodybuilders went years just stuffing their faces with as much as they could. Just trying to put on weight before macros were even heard of. They tried the best they could to keep the fat off while gorging themselves out. That includes my version of clean eating. Unfortunately, it's not based on your reality.

Is it really that tough to see that not everything works the same for everyone?

How many pros do you think eat whatever they want?

There can't be such a thing as good or bad for someone who believes it is ok to eat anything. Unless you monitor everything closely and fight for every inch, how would you know?

Not saying that you haven't done that but like a study, it would take many doing the same thing being closely monitored. What works for you won't always work for me. I am my own study.



Why does everyone being different change the foods we can eat? Food and nutrition should be based upon our needs and include foods we enjoy eating. Saying people eat shit you wouldn't even look at is a bit melodramatic don't you think? 

No I don't think it's melodramatic. You can try to make it out to be but it's not. Your tag team partner even said he can eat anything he wants and still be huge with a 6. I can't because I'm not him. Still sound melodramatic?

It's called genetics. 

Speaking of genetics, if one person can put muscle on faster than another, why wouldn't one person be able to put fat on faster than another?



What are these 3 body types and the 88 subtypes? The fast and slow muscle/fat gains is called nutrient partitioning or p-ratio. All it means is how much of a calorie goes towards muscle building or fat storage. He's everyone has different nutrient partitioning and metabolisms but all that really changes is the amount of calories or macros you eat, it has nothing to do with sources of those macros (unless a medical condition exists that necessitates otherwise like diabetes). All you have proven with this statement is that we are all different, not that the sources of where we get our macros and calories needs to be different. And if those 3 body types are what I think they are, I hope you clarify that point, then those three body types are one of the biggest loads of crap in the fitness world. 

I'm going to assume the first part of the question is rhetorical, at least I hope so. The subtypes are based on what percentages of each body type you are. It's rare that an individual is one certain type. Just as someone that gets fat gains more fat cells and someone that gains muscle gets more muscle cells. If someone loses weight the fat cells don't go away, they lie dormant just the same as muscle cells do.

I have more dormant fat cells. Have you ever been fat?

You are correct in saying all I have done is prove we are all different. That's what I've been trying to prove all along. Because one size does not fit all.

How can you say I have proven nothing when you have proven nothing. All you have is your experience and what you read. All I have is my experience which differs from yours. I don't want to sound like a broken record so I'll stop so I don't have to keep repeating myself.


First off, you were the first one here saying a calorie is a calorie. No one said that in here until you did. Secondly, as I'm trying to explain, is that macros are indeed important for lbm considerations. No one said macros weren't important. Thirdly, your bulking dieting sugar and transfats is technically deficient in protein and will kill you eventually so no, no one could bulk on that. Fourthly, that's an appeal to an extreme, a logical fallacy and one that doesn't need to be debated since it's a fallacy. And finally, would you bulk on broccoli and olive oil? "Extreme example, yes but it's an example that makes "clean/dirty" foods hard to swallow . 

Wrong, I stated some guys think a calorie is just a calorie. You should go back and reread it. Why in the world would I say that and then  waste my time writing all of this. Your responses are starting to look  like you just want to sound good like your second paragraph.

It was you and HS that started with calories are all that matter.

Your secondly- no one is arguing about macros. It's the foods eaten.

Your thirdly- We are not discussing protein or what kills us. Now I'm certain you are just trying to sound knowledgeable. Can you say ego check?

Your fourthly- Broccoli is not a bulking food. You are starting to sound silly. I used sugar because it's in brownies. Do you think you could eat all brownies for your fats and carbs and keep the same BF%? I can't. 

What I'm saying is if a lot can make a difference, so can a little.

You seem like a smart guy, don't blow it with your ego and trying to sound good.


Again, no one said a calorie is just a calorie, only you have. Then contest prep is more than about just lbm and fat as Hulk has pointed out. Manipulation of many variables is necessary to come in stage ready. CAlorie restrictions are far tighter when getting contest prep and the only thing limiting your food choices is the fact that you're only taking in so little calories, the source of those calories again is irrelevant on body composition once needs have been met. 

Again, I heard you the first time and that is not what I stated. I understand contest prep. When losing weight for a contest are brownies sufficient as long as macros are in order? Before manipulation of the variables?

That must be how the pros do it.

Few days out from a show, NOTHING but broccoli and olive oil bc those are clean foods right? Again you're making the same fallacy by appealing to an extreme. This does nothing to help your argument and only serves to weaken it if that's the only thing you have to attack the counter argument. 

It's called sarcasm. You can't tell the difference?

Oh, that's right, just have to have something to say.


"Watch me as I get shredded for this show at 6%, hand me that broccoli and olive oil, put that steak away"

We can keep making the same fallacy all day on top of red herring arguments my man, again this does not help prove anything. 



There's no such thing as endo. What works for you works for everyone else, just in different quantities. You may require more calories or less, you may be bigger or smaller, you may need more protein or less, that changes. Whether you get protein from a shake or a steak doesn't change. Sources of food are sources of micros, macros, and calories. Nothing more nothing less. You've made my point again, "your version of clean". How many versions are there? How can you tell someone to eat clean? Do you mean your version of clean? POB's version of clean? My version of clean? And according to you everyone is different and this changes what works so how do you know clean works for OP here? Maybe bc he's different dirty is the only thing that will work. See how asinine labeling foods as clean and dirty can become? There is no standard objective definition thus they should not be used as labels. 

Ahhh, so you do know what body types are. Good to hear. Body types just describe what it takes for someone to accomplish their goals and gives a general idea of what a body might look like. A simple classification. Once again, unsimplified.

The only version of clean I need to know is what works for me. It's what I think is good and what I think is bad. I know what works for me, you don't as much as you would like to think so.

Once again if you go back to my post when I stated what it was, I said as far as I knew. I wasn't boasting that my way was the only way as you have throughout this whole thread.

You just take the cake bud. I agreed with you that people have different meanings in the first quote of your post. But once again, here you are still going on about it.

Do you see how asinine it is when people post things over and over but don't fully read what they are posting about? All for the sake of looking good?

It's rare that I'm speechless about something so I'll just leave this part alone and everyone can come to their own conclusions.



So you admit to being closed minded and decide to describe it as experience? That's a warped view to hold. Don't you wish the general population had a more accurate picture of AAS and it's users and that they wouldn't shun us or look at us differently like they do now? Or should they be as closed-minded as you make yourself out to be and have them say "oh it's only roid rage, you can't change my mind it's experience".

LOL, the only closed minded person in this post is you. It is closed minded to think that there is only one way. 

What I'm saying is there is there is more than one way. I have experienced it on my own. How can you just brush my experience off just because you are right.

You are as closed minded as they come. The only way is your way. That's not closed minded?

I know what works for me and what doesn't. I'm not saying my way is what works for everyone. Get it?

You started off like you really wanted to have a good discussion. You certainly didn't finish it like that.

You know what they say, you can only hold an act up for so long.

Now, I'm going to post this here because I see that it applies to you as well. You have lost credibility in my eyes because you don't take the time to really think things out, not that it matters to you.

That's right, YOUR EXPERIENCE. One day when you   finally realize you don't know everything, and keep in mind when you   know everything you lose your ability to learn, you will realize that  there is more to it than what you know or think you know. You will see  that different people will have different experiences than yourself.

When you are able to combine what you read in books along with studies,   see other's experiences and your own then are able to really see how   something can or can't work, even for some but not for others, you will   truly have learned something.

I gotta be honest bud, know it all guys like you are the reason I gave   up my mod position here and stay away from the big boards. I'm getting   to old to argue with walls. I've got better things to do than waste my   time with someone that won't listen.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, I'm saying it doesn't work for me.

I hope you get it one day.


Did you know...

Some believe you can also eat as much as you want  at one time and get the same results. Does that mean the Glycemic index  is out the window?

Some believe that the nutrient timing after a  workout is 24 hours and not in the first few. Does that mean it's ok for  slin users to inject their slin 12 hours after a workout and expect the  same results?

See where I'm going with this?
 
I'm through with you crackerjacks. I've got better things to do with my time.


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## hulksmash (Oct 22, 2013)

> It's obvious that we have two different ideas of bulking. I don't bulk to put on unnecessary body fat and neither should anyone else.. If you're arguing that eating bigmacs, brownies and fried chicken (for brother shine), will put weight on you then you are absolutely correct. When I talk about bulking, I'm talking about efficiently. Meaning not having to spend a lot of time on a cut.
> 
> I see we're not on the same page with what a bulk means.
> 
> ...



You did it again-ignored EVERYTHING and talk about unwritten subjects

The ONLY Argument: 
Me: only calories matter for gaining LBM/losing body fat

You: Calories matter but macros do too

I gave a rebuttal:
Me: Calories only matter, so long as 
-1) protein intake is 50-200g daily
-2) minimum fat/vitamins/minerals intake to live 
-3) deficit if cutting, surplus of calories if bulking

YOUR reply to my rebuttal
-1) I'm talking about quality gains. You know, muscle to fat ratio??
-2) Calories are not all that matter.
-3) People respond differently. "...I tried it..."

NOW MY DEFENSE TO YOUR "REBUTTAL"

-1) TRY IT AGAIN with my 3 rules for calories only matter

-2) BULKING IS GAINING LBM WITH MINIMAL FAT, WE DO NOT DISAGREE WHAT "BULKING" IS 

-3) DO #1, WITHOUT TOO BIG OF A CALORIE SURPLUS=TA DA! BARELY ANY FAT GAIN!



> Are we not discussing a calorie is just a calorie?  Contest prep starts for some months out. But you're saying nobody is trying to lose BF right up to the show?
> 
> Besides, I was talking about the weight loss aspect of prep and you turned it into something different because you really have no defense.



*YOU IGNORED AGAIN*

THE ONLY ARGUMENT

YOU: "You don't think guys aren't fighting to lose those last few LBS up to the show? The last few that can really make a difference?"

ME: THose last few lbs are more about
-*water weight*
-*sodium manipulation*
-*metabolism increasing*

YOUR REBUTTAL
-Contest prep starts for some months out. 
-you're saying nobody is trying to lose BF right up to the show? 
-I was talking about the weight loss aspect of prep...you really have no defense."

MY REPLY TO YOUR REBUTTAL
-contest prep IS MORE than just calories 

-they are trying to lose BF; however they stay relatively lean (always see watery 6-packs in the offseason)

-I was talking about that aspect too! That aspect=*MORE ABOUT WATER, SODIUM, AND METABOLISM*

*I NOW, ABOVE, WROTE EVERYTHING IS A SIMPLE, EASY TO READ FORMAT SHOWING OUR ARGUMENTS AND DEFENSES

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR YOU NOT TO RESPOND CORRECTLY NOW *(I hope)



> I love how you like to cheer everyone on at the end of your posts.
> 
> I'm going to repost this last part that you have conveniently skipped over. Perhaps you should read it again since it was the most important part of the post



I do nt cheer anyone on, I Tell everyone to have fun and stay healthy

everyone, including you, is my UG brother-it's just a forum and everyone should remember that no matter how heated the convos 

*I DID NOT SKIP THAT PART-THAT'S WHY I WROTE "IT'S JUST MY EXPERIENCES"*

-that way people can take from it and use what they can

-shows you that I agree that everyone is different (but still ask they try only worrying about calories, with the 3 rules of it)



HDH said:


> First of all, I got mad because you said "it is idioticy to EVEN BRING UP CONTEST PREP" we can resort to name calling if that's what you want. Do you think because you worded it differently, it changes the meaning? No. Not everyone will let you just talk to them any kind of way.



It is idioticy to bring up contest prep

THAT DOES NOT MEAN IM CALLING YOU AN IDIOT-THE SUBJECT IS! 
CONTEST PREP IS MORE THAN JUST CALORIES, THUS CONTEST PREP=IDIOTICY WHEN DISCUSSED WITH CALORIES BEING THE ONLY IMPORTANCE



> And don't think I didn't notice how you changed what I said from jackass to-"You need to slow your role ass, you might as well just call me an idiot."
> 
> Glad you did it, it shows everyone what kind of integrity you really have. Besides, I would have said asshole, not ass.




That was an error

Didn't even notice

Had to happen while I was writing BBcode and editing the quotations, etc

I apologize for the error


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## jyoung8j (Oct 22, 2013)

Jesus guys!!! Lol


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## hulksmash (Oct 22, 2013)

Also HDH, I challenge you to eat: 

275g carbs
70g protein 
60g fat 

SHITLOAD of fat and carbs 

Only 1,920 cals though

This will PROVE only calories matter for you with fat loss

Do it for several months, 

what type of carbs and fat doesn't matter as long as its those grams I listed 

Enjoy and don't be mad when the truth comes out


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## Bro Bundy (Oct 22, 2013)

lmao this is great! I dont have a clue what the fuk u guys are talking about


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 22, 2013)

HDH said:
			
		

> That's right, YOUR EXPERIENCE. One day when you finally realize you don't know everything, and keep in mind when you know everything you lose your ability to learn, you will realize that there is more to it than what you know or think you know. You will see that different people will have different experiences than yourself.
> 
> When you are able to combine what you read in books along with studies, see other's experiences and your own then are able to really see how something can or can't work, even for some but not for others, you will truly have learned something.
> 
> ...



So you too have nothing better to do than make ad hominen attacks and hide behind them. I have not even proposed a method for me to say my method is better and that's not what I've tried to do. If it was guys like me that made you give up I'm flattered, science should be used to prove and disprove theories. Now that you're a normal member I hope you'll take the time out and research things more. Have a great day.


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 22, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> So you too have nothing better to do than make ad hominen attacks and hide behind them. I have not even proposed a method for me to say my method is better and that's not what I've tried to do. If it was guys like me that made you give up I'm flattered, science should be used to prove and disprove theories. Now that you're a normal member I hope you'll take the time out and research things more. Have a great day.



Science is not always the final answer. That's why there are clinical trials


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 22, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Science is not always the final answer. That's why there are clinical trials



Clinical trials are a part of the scientific process so I'm not sure where you're going with this POB?


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 22, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Clinical trials are a part of the scientific process so I'm not sure where you're going with this POB?



Why do you get so defensive about science? I stated my opinion and you are asking me where I am going. Which I will reply where ever I please  most likely to McDonald's for some pumpkin pies though.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 22, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Why do you get so defensive about science? I stated my opinion and you are asking me where I am going. Which I will reply where ever I please  most likely to McDonald's for some pumpkin pies though.



Who said I was defensive? I stated my opinion in the same manner you're entitled to and responded bc you quoted my post and commented on it. Ironically, I've got my coworker going out to McDonald's for me in about 20min for some apple pies, salad, and burger


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 22, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> Who said I was defensive? I stated my opinion in the same manner you're entitled to and responded bc you quoted my post and commented on it. Ironically, I've got my coworker going out to McDonald's for me in about 20min for some apple pies, salad, and burger



Try the pumpkin they are TDF. 

I said you were defensive and I based that off a comment you made to HDH that kinda got under my skin. 

You were talking down to him referring to him as a normal member. Not cool at all. HDH has been helping guys on the boards get better at these things since before I was born. He is well respected wherever he goes. No reason to be condescending is all. He has a proven record of results whether he has scientific backing or not.  

Let's all tone it down in here. Not talking to just you of course doc. Just seems everyone needs a deep breath. Or a blow job.


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## powermaster (Oct 22, 2013)

I found out the hard way diet is the key to what you want to accomplish. Just by getting my diet in check I have gained almost ten lbs. now this is just over all weight muscle and fat but hey by next cycle be able to do some serious damage


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 22, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Try the pumpkin they are TDF.
> 
> I said you were defensive and I based that off a comment you made to HDH that kinda got under my skin.
> 
> ...



Too late to try the pumpkin but I will next time. Didn't even know they made pumpkin but I love pumpkin in a lot of things. Thanks for the tip. 

I apologize if I got under your skin but I'm not sure if you read his entire reply to me or just he part I quoted bc I didn't quite the whole thing. I started off telling him I'm not here to make him or anyone feel like an idiot bc of his interaction with another member made him question it. I also told him I'm here to further knowledge. In his response to me he implies I'm egotistical and asks to get an ego check for me. I don't know about you but that rubbed me the wrong way like my comment did to you. I admit I took the bait and stooped down into the fray as well when I shouldn't have. I'm rarely the first to start hurling insults but I have no qualms defending myself. 

My issue with anecdotal evidence without scientific backing is that variables are not controlled for and thus you can't leap to conclusions as confounding factors could have caused the effect from a stimulus. I ask you to reread our interaction with each other and see if you can see where the conversation started turning to shit. 

I appreciate you keeping a level head and talking to me on equal footing. I'll do my best to keep my tone down when an issue arises and hope others can do the same. I'll also skip that deep breath and go straight for the blow job when I leave work


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 22, 2013)

HDH, I apologize to you for stopping down to a childish level. I should have had better restraint over myself. Hopefully what's done is done and we can move in from here in a positive manner.


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 22, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> HDH, I apologize to you for stopping down to a childish level. I should have had better restraint over myself. Hopefully what's done is done and we can move in from here in a positive manner.



This says a lot about you doc. Thank you.


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## hulksmash (Oct 23, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Let's all tone it down in here. Not talking to just you of course doc. Just seems everyone needs a deep breath. Or a blow job.



Yea after my wife glanced and saw how big of font I used she made me get off and drink LOL

Not gonna argue since it's usually me getting told not to have a drink


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## HDH (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks POB, I appreciate the kind words.

I kind of skimmed through some of the reading.

I can't really say much else except to me, it matters what type of calories I ingest for a leaner look and lower BF%.

If I eat sweets, even if I stay within my macros, my BF% is higher. Therefore for me, what type of calories I put in me do make a difference.

To me, a calorie isn't just a calorie.

That is my experience.

Guys, don't let status of members fool you. Just because I'm a regular member doesn't mean I don't know anything.

I left the board and stayed gone for a while without checking in. Proper protocol is to drop status for safety and security reasons.

I don't like being handed status and would rather re earn it.

Besides, after you've been around for so long status just doesn't matter as much anymore.

Doc, I think you're a smart guy and I believe I can learn from some of your posts. 

The one thing I'm the most grateful for learning over the years is we never stop learning, you never know who you will learn from and there is always room for improvement. I've learned from the new guys waking in the door. We all have different experiences and knowledge.

It took me sticking my foot in my mouth a few time to learn that.

Anyways, I'm not here to argue or fight with people but I do speak my mind if I have some input. I've never been one to back down from anything but I do have limits now on how long I will be involved in discussions that won't go anywhere.

I will be around and hope to get along with everyone.

jyoung, sorry to take up so much space in your thread.

You've gotten a lot of good info at another place from some good people with a good starting point and some simple adjustments on your part to reach your goals.

My advice to you is consistency. Your diet will take you the furthest. The gear pretty much all does the same thing as an end result. Some can make you gain water, dry out, give you a hard look, give you a vascular look, or can make you stronger than other aas. 

In the end it will all put you in an anabolic state that will grow muscle on a bulk, help retain muscle on a cut or do both cycling carbs.

The biggest part will be your diet. When that is locked in, goals are made easy.

HDH


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 23, 2013)

HDH said:


> You've gotten a lot of good info at another place from some good people with a good starting point and some simple adjustments on your part to reach your goals.
> 
> My advice to you is consistency. Your diet will take you the furthest. The gear pretty much all does the same thing as an end result. Some can make you gain water, dry out, give you a hard look, give you a vascular look, or can make you stronger than other aas.
> 
> ...



HDH, no matter how our views on nutrition differ they will always be In agreement with this ^^^. No diet will work without consistency and some fine tuning. None. And no amount of gear can really make up for a horrible diet.


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