# opinions on ENDO or HRT CLINIC?



## Illtemper (Nov 5, 2012)

What would you go with???  Or what do you go with??  

Recently my blood levels were slightly off in bilirubin and my GP said i need to see an endo cause he doesnt feel that online HRT clinics are worth anything and i should only go to an ENDO for anything that has to do with hormones.... Now i know and read all the bad stuff that peopled complained about endos when i was first diagonsed with Low t. I went with Maximus Hrt,  I never questioned what, why or how.  I was simply feeling good again after a few weeks and i was happy! 
Well the hemo\crit was creeping up and i didnt know much back then and didnt think much about it. After being on 200mg every 5 days for more then 6months my RBC got high and then i found out i was supposed to be donating every 56days..  Well things were fine and i was doing good.  About 6months ago from today i got some deca and peptides to try to help heal some shoulder issues i was having... I was doing 100mg of deca every 7 days and 125mg of test every5..  I was feeling great but when i went for a blood test my rbc was high along with hemo and crit plus my bilirubuin was elevated also..  GP didnt like it and told me to go see an endo.
to make this story shorter i went to an endo just to see for myself what she had to say... In an nut shell she doesnt like the online hrt clinics either and i can somewhat understand her point on it. But for now she told me not to take anything for 2months so she can get a baseline on me and see if my bilirubin levels come down. Then she also said she wanted to make sure i wasnt misdiagonsed and i dont have a problem elsewhere.... 

Here i sit after 3 full weeks of no test or anything here is what i notice:

:I feel run down and tired a lot lately. I run my own business and when people call i dont even wanna answer the phone.. Seriously im not depressed (yet) but my drive to work and talk to people is getting to be less and i getting worried that its only gonna get worse.. I cant lose business, i need more not less....   

:My libido is going down, me and the wife had a wedding to go to last night and the kids were at her moms house, lets just say we had the house to ourselves and when we got home all i wanted to do was go to sleep............  WTF! the KIDS werent home and i went to sleep! i realized it this morning that i wasnt even wanting sex as usual and even my wife said "whats the matter".. 

:I get up about 4 times a night lately to piss...... Why i dont know but maybe its the protein drink i have before bed that is doing it now.... IDK

:I dont really sleep well, but that might not be because of anything, i dont really sleep good no matter what.... especially with getting up to piss.........

muscle soreness is longer 

Lifting, im still killing it in the gym which is nice. On some stuff my strength has gone up a bit but on others like legs the strength is less....

Now Ive been on for over a 1.5yrs straight and stopping cold turkey like this im sure im pretty shut down at this point and explains why im feeling this way.. Now as i said Right now at this point in time my attitude is still good and im still for the most part happy, I just cant get myself moving and focused to work anymore... 


So i need opinions, should i continue with the ENDO or should i contact this HRT clinic that i found here by my house?  My doc will not fill out the forms required for me to continue with HRT on demand (maximus) since he feels its doing more harm then good for me........


Also this endo doesnt believe in AI or hcg for therapy...... She said its not something in the endo guidelines and she would not prescribe it to me and if i wanted it i would have to go through someone else...    
I think most of us in here know exactly what happens once that e2 builds up.......  I asked how can you not provide an AI for your patients that you are prescribing test to, she said its not in the guidelines so she doesnt do it.............
This is a red flag to me....

The next time i see this endo is on the 20th of dec. I not sure if i feel this is gonna work for me. Maybe going to the HRT clinic i found by my house will be a lot better??  The question is for hrt docs, what are they exactly? are they docs like endos but trained differently?  I really dont know who is over seeing my care from an online source as i never see a doc.. Im told a doc looks at it but now im wondering what it actually is..............


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## DF (Nov 5, 2012)

Does this endo even check E2?  IMO I'd got with the HRT clinic by your house.  I look at it as the HRT guys are the specialists in this field.  However, like any profession you have good & not so good docs/endos ect.... You really need to shop around to find a good one.


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## ken Sass (Nov 5, 2012)

mine did the whole pnl on me


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## Christosterone (Nov 5, 2012)

Older adults, if you inject some deca a week before getting tested, it will kill your hpta and give u better chance at getting a script. I say go to an endo first because they can bill insurance under a necessity cause whilst hrt clinic is elective.


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## DF (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree that it would be great if he could go the endo & be covered by insurance, but this endo is not going to give him an AI or check his E2.  That being said this means that the OP will have to get his own tests to check his estro & he'll have to get his own AI if its needed.


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## Illtemper (Nov 5, 2012)

Df you are right, this endo said she has never prescribed an AI and its not in the endo guidelines so she will not prescribe it.. I asked what if the estrogen jumps up what do you do then, first she said she's never had anyone with an issue and if it does creep up they cut your test level down. She thought me running my test level at 800-1000 was way to high and it should be more at the 500 range... I just remembered her saying this.. When I was there we were quizzing each other Lol... This endo also told me taking hcg is not going to keep my own production working and she will not give prescriptions for that either. Absolutely not in the guidelines at all....

These reasons for me is why I'm leaning on going with the HRT clinic.. The "guidelines" for endos will not help me out compared to what a specialist in HRT would..  

First and foremost though I just wanna be healthy and safe. Finding an endo that knows how to treat the patient and not just the numbers is not something I can do since my ins only let's me see certain docs.. 
For the HRT clinic, ill pay out of pocket just like I did with Maximus.....


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## DF (Nov 5, 2012)

I believe that the HRT clinics are more than willing to work with you & listen to your concerns.  Unless you can find that one in a million GP/Endo that actually knows what is what & not go by stupid guidelines.


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## TheGenuineArt (Nov 6, 2012)

endo's are useless


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## Christosterone (Nov 6, 2012)

Endo would prob be better covered on insurance


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## Bullseye Forever (Nov 7, 2012)

if i had it to do over,i would go to a HRT clinic,just my opinion affter the shitty luck ive had with Endos,usually they dont to prescribe but 75mg/week and no hcg and no aromasin


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## juuced (Nov 7, 2012)

If you want to go with HRT on Demand aka Maximus dont go to your regular doctor.

Just find one of those walk in clinics that will give you a sports physical.  Thats all you need.

I asked Mike and he said you dont need to use his forms.  they will take any physical report from a doc


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## Illtemper (Nov 7, 2012)

So as it is, I'm not to concerned if HRT is covered under insurance. I have been paying out of pocket all along with Maximus for over a year now so that's not my issue.

Bullseye with what you said this is what make me wonder, where would I get the best care HRT clinic or endo??? 

I appreciate all the replys on this as I'm still pondering what I should do. 
I personally think the HRT clinic is the only way to go, on another hand I feel maybe an endo watching everything might not be a bad idea either....

I only truly care about the level of health care I will receive. I wanna be healthy and safe


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## Cashout (Nov 7, 2012)

Ill....no one here is going to be able to give you specific guidance on this unless they actually have experiences with the clinic and the endo to which you are referring.

That's why I haven't answered until now.

There are good clinics out there. I know of a couple and they do a very good job of supporting the health of their patients. However, there are also very bad clinics out there. 

Likewise, there are good endos out there that really do have wonderful insights and valuable capabilities in this area. There are ones that have no clue and should be avoid.

This is one choice where you will need to be willing to work with and explore your options personally to get the insight you need to make the right choice for your health.

Just because an endo says she won't prescribe an AI doesn't mean she doesn't know what she is doing. Frankly, I don't think an AI is absolutely necessary for HRT. Once I dailed my test downward from 200 mgs a week I never needed and AI and my blood levels stayed in a very good range fro both TT and E.

Similarly, I've seen some of these "online clinics" prescribing Winstrol for their patients to manage SHBG. To me, that should be a big "red flag." 

So, again, this is going to take some work on your part to be willing to commit to a healthcare provider and work with them for a long enough period of time to establish an understanding of what is best fro your health and well-being.


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## Bullseye Forever (Nov 8, 2012)

thanks Cashout,really good point,yea Ill i may have mislead you when i posted about the hcg and aromasin,the endo's im talking about knew thier stuff and was smart,but a couple of them would help you with an a.i. or hcg ONLY if they were needed,thats what i meant.But for my part,i would look into both,the Endo is gonna be more knowlegable when it comes to your test doses,and how your pituritary gland works with your testes for test production etc,they are the professionals for your endocrine system,and sometimes they are a little hesitant to try things that might help you,but it may not agree with thier philosophy.

I just had one bad experience with one endo,he would prescrib me an A.I. said it wasnt necessary,but my regular doctor hhad checked my estradoil,and it was really high,and i just asked the endo,and he wasnt agreeable

I would check into both and find one that you are comfortable with


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## Illtemper (Nov 8, 2012)

I was just looking for opinions from personal experiences on what others feel is better to go with. I wish I knew someone that went to this clinic so I like ask if the docs were bullshit or actual knowledgeable people, unfortunately I don't. 

Years ago on ology before I got with Maximus everyone seemed to have stories about how the endos sucked and how much better Maximus, palm beach life etc. was...  I never read anything from anyone that had anything good to say about their endo so when I was diagnosed with low t I simply called Maximus from day 1. I never went to an endo before now and still don't know if its worth the time and if I'm just spinning my wheels.  It's not that I don't think this endo knows what she is doing but I also don't know yet if she does and waiting around till I find out is what's difficult....  

Again, I appreciate the comments!


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## BigFella (Nov 9, 2012)

Hi Ill. I've been to one Endo and he was a disgrace to his profession. One example: I told him I was on a transdermal T cream and he said before he treated me I'd have to get off those injections for a month. Got it? There's a disconnect there if you look hard. He had no idea that transdermal T has a half life of hours. (Or that its not injected.)

But I did a heap of research and found a doctor who knows his shit. Ok, he's across the other side of Australia, so I have a fair way to travel when I need to see him, like about 3,500ks. But he's the gun here.

If I was starting again I'd be *visiting* compounding pharmacies in a 50 mile radius and asking who writes T scripts. I've found that if you go and chat, and you are a real TRT prospect, people will help. (Don't try it over the phone - visit.)


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## Illtemper (Nov 16, 2012)

Update...

so this has now been over a month...  I feel like HELL!!  My wife keeps asking me whats wrong, whats the matter what what what waht ahahaeahr......   you get the idea....  Fuck im getting depressed again.....   Im trying to hold off and to see if doing the endo thing is a good way to go, i actually went for blood to see if my bilirubin level came back to normal before i decide what to do....    I should find out tomorrow..    

So heres the thing, with running my own business all it takes is one asshole to set off your entire day and make you feel depressed..  Well last week was good for work but damn do i get so fricken tired at around 4ish and its hard already cause the modivation isnt as strong as it was a month ago anyways....  This week has been a different story, IDK if small things are just getting to me more lately or what but i had a situation with a shop i do work for and it has seriously put me in such a slump. Now it wasnt anything big i didnt have a falling out with the shop or anything just found out some of the work id like to get is going to a different place and it is a place they have been dealing with before me...  So IDK why it is bothering me so much....  

sex drive is def lower.... 
ive lost 10lbs.......  this is depressing!
my modivation to go to the gym is much less..... I should be at the gym now but im on here typing this sob story..... Sorry.....
my recovery time from the gym is longer.... I hit legs pretty good mon, still pretty sore on thursday.........  CMON!
im getting weaker.....  what i was lifting, is heavier to me now... some i cant pickup...
sleep  IDK,, i still wake up to piss and i dont think i sleep very sound cause i wake up tired.......     
my outlook on life, honestly is worse..  Depression is developing, im not caring about much anymore. Im losing drive, focus, happiness, and my wife is noticing and to me it seems like she is turning screws but i know its me and i cant stop over reacting to stupid shit...  

I dont know WTF is going on right now, im trying to make sure this isnt made up in my head (if that makes sense).  Now even my wife is saying you need to go back on your trt cause you seem miserible....  she said this today......  if she is noticing, that worries me! if been feeling crappy for a couple weeks now, this week is def worse so far.......  

As i sadi before, what i was afraid of is now coming back to me and that makes me wanna jump back on trt even more.  Im just trying to be smart and safe about everything..  This endo telling me to take a break i think was a mistake for me! i know she wanted a baseline but feeling the way i feel right now, i wont make it another month like this and wont go back to her anyways!


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## TheGenuineArt (Nov 16, 2012)

You should have never gone to an endo and a female endo at that. Never ever let a female "doctor" be responsible for your male hormones. I'm not here to be polite and be respectful of women regardless of any of their professional shortcomings. I don't pull my punches.I'm here to give valid and valuable information from experience. Female docs simply do not have the ability to empathize or understand a male's specific needs for remaining vital, potent, and full of energy. They lack the psychology. Fuck it's hard enough for decent male doctors to empathize with a guy suffering from low-T let alone a female endo...Holy shit...I've said it once and I'll say it again. Endo's are useless. 

Yeah I'm sure some of them out there are knowledgeable enough but you are searching for the needle in the haystack. As another poster had mentioned, his visit to one was a disgrace to the profession. Well that's been the norm in most all men's cases for quite some time now who have sought medical help with low-T. I'm sick and tired of endo's being regarded as these all knowing omnipotent rock stars of the hormone world with infinite knowledge. Well they aren't! They are arrogant assholes that are afraid to admit that regular guys know more about TRT than they do. Endo's should stick to treating diabetes or choose what may be  a more natural career path such as mopping up jizz in peep booths. 

I have heard countless horror stories where guys with abysmally low levels of T ( 150-250ng/dl hypogonadal by almost any lab standards) get turned down by them. Now if that isn't medical negligence I don't know what is. These assholes should be hung out of their office windows for such ( there isn't even a word for it). Additionally I've heard that it's not just exclusively like this for testosterone therapy with them but also with thyroid issues....Godamnitt I think I may go pay a $50 co-pay just so I can visit one and slap the holy fuck out him/her....FUCK ENDO'S!!!!!

Get back on your T or try a low dose of clomid until you are feeling a bit better(12.5-25 mg every day). Give blood and take a baby aspirin each day if you decide to go back on the shots at the dose you were taking. In the meantime try to search and find a GP that understands male hormones and go with him. They are out there. Let him be the one to order the labs you want until you get dialed in....


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## Illtemper (Nov 17, 2012)

Genuine your post is a classic!! I LMAO!!!  I feel the same way you do and the only reason I went is 1. I tought it was a male doc, the name got me.. 2. I thought I would hear them out and I was hoping to find the needle in the haystack abd haing ins pay for meds would of been nice. 3. With some of my blood levels being off I was and still am concerned with what is going on. Recent test shows my levels did come down for bilirubin just not as much as I thought they would of, but still very good, I'm still flagged high but only by0.1.  So I'm happy with the numbers And I can't stop thinking of just going back on because of how crappy I feel lately. I feel as if its addiction! Lol!


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## TheGenuineArt (Nov 17, 2012)

What can I say? Glad people can relate to the hate(hey that fucking rhymes) ..I've been low T now for abut two years that I'm aware of and it's turned me into one of the biggest A holes that ever graced the universe. I guess you can only wake up with a limp dick for so long, experience ED when you are trying to have sex, see your once powerful 430 pound bench press at 210 pounds go down to about 365, muscle mass slowly disappearing, gut growing bigger, and not get any doctor help with test levels as low as 294 ng/dl for morning readings before you go a little psycho... This was mild in a sense. You should see some of the rants I've made on some other boards. The anger is so intense towards these prick doctors that if I were able to I'd probably pick up the fucking planet earth and throw it into the sun. That's a little extreme isn't it? Yeah I don't think one can get any angrier than that....


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## Illtemper (Nov 17, 2012)

Fuck it, took a long walk with the dog and decided I'm going back on. I simply can't take feeling like this anymore when I was feeling so good 2 months ago. I'm gonna low dose and see where I'm at and how I feel and go from there..  It's easy enough to pay my 50 through lab corp for tests to watch everything. I'm gonna try to find a GP that's not a retard but if anything ill just go to the HRT clinic by the house and get treated by their docs.. Thanks for the help and sharing your thoughts on this topic!


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## Illtemper (Nov 17, 2012)

Check this out!

I went for a blood test to see what my test levels were at since i was feeling so horrible.  I had the test done yesterday morning at about 10am..  I just got an email with my results from private med labs........ 

my bilirubin is still slightly high but lower then it was. 
Crit is at 51.9% so that got flagged also     chart is 37-51.0%....      

Test level----------- 83!     Fuck me!  LOW      no wonders ive been feeling so horrible!
LH-------------------0.1     1.7-8.6     LOW
FSH------------------0.9     1.5-12.4   LOW
Estradiol-------------5.1     7.6-42.6   LOW

Now keep in mind, my endo appointment still isnt for another month........      Before i started TRT, my test levels were 126., The highest its been is 1200 and on lab-corps chart 1197 is the high side of the chart..... I wish i never would of went to the endo at this point.........


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## TheGenuineArt (Nov 19, 2012)

Holy shit Batman!....I can say with certainty that you are totally in a hormone hell at this moment. I bet there are some women with more testosterone in their bodies than what you have. In fact I know there are. I feel like ass in the mid 300's and here you are in what is literally the bread line of the Auschwitz death camp regarding testosterone. I can only imagine how you must feel. 

Estrogen low like that just like low testosterone also is very unhealthy for the heart, bones, immune system, and brain. Get back on the T man or some clomid. Hormone profiles like that are literally death sentences. There is no reason for you to have to endure feeling this way. I would at the very least go online and put in an order for a 4 week clomid cycle just to get your HPTA working more optimally again. Additionally it should raise your estrogen some and boost LH, FSH, and testosterone. From the looks of it I would say you are definitely secondary hypogonadal and in this case due to hypergonadotropic causes and use of exogenous T which has led to HPTA shutdown or severely impaired function. Out of curiosity what were your labs like before you ever started TRT? Were you secondary before TRT just because of low LH and FSH or had you used gear in the past which may have led to hypogonadism?


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## 20YO (May 13, 2013)

hey bigfella, am also from oz. would be interested in details of said doc/pharmacies!


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