# Gyno during cycle



## Alpinehua (Oct 24, 2016)

Last year i did my first cycle of test e 500mg EW for 12 weeks and i got gyno near the end of my cycle that stayed for a couple months. I am looking into doig anothwr cycle and i want to stop the chance of getting gyno early. I want to run the following cycle:

Week 1 - 12 Test E 500mg EW 
Week 6 - 14 anavar 40mg ED
Week 14-18 Nolva 40/40/20/20/10

My question is.....what should i do during my cycle to prevent gyno. Should i take arimidex every other day for the second half of my cycle and then stop it at week 14 when i start my pct or what wiuld you guys do?...thanks. 

Im 5'11" 185lbs been training for 5 years and this is my second cycle.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

Your adex won't stop gyno. The best things you can do to prevent gyno are avoiding or minimizing the use of aromatizing compounds or compounds that interact with the estradiol receptor and/or taking nolva on cycle.


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## stonetag (Oct 24, 2016)

Welcome to the UG.


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## gymrat827 (Oct 24, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Your adex won't stop gyno. The best things you can do to prevent gyno are avoiding or minimizing the use of aromatizing compounds or compounds that interact with the estradiol receptor and/or taking nolva on cycle.



start the nolva now.  20 a day for a few weeks, goto 40 for a couple weeks if it doesnt begin to subside.  

But dont stay on 40mg for too long.  Get more clomid & nolva for pct.


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## Shane1974 (Oct 24, 2016)

I typically don't argue with the Doc, but I would think that running Adex from start to finish should help offset test to estro conversion...which SHOULD help avoid gyno. Right? Am I wrong here?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

Shane1974 said:


> I typically don't argue with the Doc, but I would think that running Adex from start to finish should help offset test to estro conversion...which SHOULD help avoid gyno. Right? Am I wrong here?



You would think so but it doesn't work remotely as well as many are led to believe. 

Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole.
Randomized controlled trial
Saltzstein D, et al. Prostate Cancer Prostatic Dis. 2005.
Show full citation
Abstract
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 107 men receiving bicalutamide ('Casodex') 150 mg/day therapy following radical therapy for prostate cancer assessed tamoxifen ('Nolvadex') 20 mg/day and anastrozole ('Arimidex') 1 mg/day for the prophylaxis and treatment of gynecomastia/breast pain. Tamoxifen, but not anastrozole, significantly reduced the incidence of gynecomastia/breast pain when used prophylactically and therapeutically. Serum testosterone levels increased with tamoxifen relative to placebo but prostate-specific antigen levels declined in all treatment groups. Further studies are needed to define the optimum tamoxifen dose and to assess any impact on cancer control. The use of tamoxifen in this setting remains to be investigated.

PMID 15685254 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 24, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> You would think so but it doesn't work remotely as well as many are led to believe.
> 
> Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole.
> Randomized controlled trial
> ...



What in the ****... 

I'm scratching my head here.  Eliminating/reducing e2 won't stop gyno? 

Reducing the use of aromatizing compounds - test - isn't really an option.

This is contrary to what we all "know" to be true.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> What in the ****...
> 
> I'm scratching my head here.  Eliminating/reducing e2 won't stop gyno?
> 
> ...



Nope. There's an analogy here that's found in the medical literature and also used by Dr. Scally. 

It goes like this:

Think of E2 as marauders trying to overtake a castle. You can either choose to kill half the marauders (use an AI) or block the gates to the castle (use a SERM). Which would you choose?


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## DieYoungStrong (Oct 24, 2016)

I did a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled study on myself and found that if you keep your E2 in check, you GENERALLY won't get gyno trouble. If you have gyno or get gyno, you need nolva. AI's do nothing for actual gyno.


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 24, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Nope. There's an analogy here that's found in the medical literature and also used by Dr. Scally.
> 
> It goes like this:
> 
> Think of E2 as marauders trying to overtake a castle. You can either choose to kill half the marauders (use an AI) or block the gates to the castle (use a SERM). Which would you choose?



This is why I generally go with aromasin instead. No marauders to begin with.


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## DieYoungStrong (Oct 24, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> This is why I generally go with aromasin instead. No marauders to begin with.



You haven't used an AI since 1997.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> This is why I generally go with aromasin instead. No marauders to begin with.



Incorrect. It is an even weaker AI then arimidex is along with no proven clinical benefit to the suicidal properties. Even with a 50mg dose of aromasin DAILY, you're only getting a max of about 60-70% E2 suppression whereas with adex you can get significantly more. Aromasin is inferior to adex in most aspects if not all.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

Here's a few posts of Scally's



Michael Scally MD said:


> How much E2 control do you think you can achieve with an AI while ON cycle (TE 500 MG/WK)? What dose AI do you think you would need? Is any AI dose sufficient to bring E2 to a level that gyno is not a concern?  It is counter intuitive, thus the reason for the castle analogy. I have treated this very problem. And, the solution was a SERM first. An AI will NOT prevent gyno.





Michael Scally MD said:


> Go for it! AIs do not prevent gyno while on cycle. I have had many cases of gyno where this strategy was used. I am not against an AI. I am wholly against the idea it will prevent gyno. AIs are not new. They have been around for decades.


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 24, 2016)

I'm starting the I hate doc club.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> I'm starting the I hate doc club.



If you make gorgonzola ch**se as club president I swear I will drive to your house and shit on your lawn....... I swear that on Tool's asshair


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## conan (Oct 24, 2016)

@Doc - Are you suggesting it's better to take a two prong approach while on cycle?  Both Adex and Nolvadex to both block and kill?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

conan said:


> @Doc - Are you suggesting it's better to take a two prong approach while on cycle?  Both Adex and Nolvadex to both block and kill?



No. For gyno treatment and prevention only a SERM. For managing E2 take an AI. I prefer not using an AI unless high E2 becomes symptomatic


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 24, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> No. For gyno treatment and prevention only a SERM. For managing E2 take an AI. I prefer not using an AI unless high E2 becomes symptomatic



This sounds like you are saying gyno isn't e2 related


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## DF (Oct 24, 2016)

I can verify what Doc is saying by experience.  I get gyno symptoms even with crashed E2.  I now have to use both Adex & Nolva.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 24, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> This sounds like you are saying gyno isn't e2 related



If it does it's not my intention. 

Gyno is estrogen/estradiol related but lowering E2 doesn't prevent gyno.


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## gymrat827 (Oct 24, 2016)

DF said:


> I can verify what Doc is saying by experience.  I get gyno symptoms even with crashed E2.  I now have to use both Adex & Nolva.



Same here. 

I've been scripted to a med for about 4yrs now n one side effect is lowering E badly.  

I've had single digit E bloods for a few long long time, and all post cycle tests I'm talking.  Straight natty.  

Still have my tiny bit of gyno.


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## justbecool1234 (Jan 8, 2017)

God I love this forum lol


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