# Bench descent speed



## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

So after failing my 300lb bench yesterday. I believe due to stupidly slow descent taking away too much energy. I am looking for advice on speeding this up...


Things I have noticed

1. Once I get over 225 my descent slows down.
2. The slow descent is usually only on the first rep, it speeds up after that.
3. After my 300 press I dropped down to 245 and tried to drop it down quick and lost all my tightness and could barely get it back up, not to mention it hurt my shoulders. 

I am just over 2 weeks out from my meet and this threw a big wrench into it.


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## Joliver (Nov 4, 2021)

It's a practice issue. Or rather a neural programming issue. 

There's something called the golgi tendon organ (used to be called golgi tendon apparatus). It's the thing, or reflex specifically, that keeps you from tearing every muscle you have--every time you lift. 

It's analogous to a fuse. If too much current runs through a fuse...it pops....disconnects the circuit. If you pick up too much weight and your muscle's required force exceeds some pre-trained set point, the golgi tendon organ will inhibit the largest motor neurons from firing to reduce the force production in an effort to prevent injury. 

So, what I hear when you say "I'm slow" is that you have no neural  pattern at those weights. So your GTO says "no." In fact, you don't get loose when you try to speed up...you absolutely lose control, correct? Feels like the muscles just quit on you, right? 

At any rate, how to fix it: pause pressing. 3 seconds min. That's enough to disconnect the GTO. Sometimes I do up to 5. Any more than 5 seconds and you may as well press off a pin. But that's another thing...still...a good thing. 

Once you begin to neurally pattern weights, you body "knows" them...and allows for maximum force production. 

I hope this helps. I'll send an invoice within a week or two.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Joliver said:


> " In fact, you don't get loose when you try to speed up...you absolutely lose control, correct? Feels like the muscles just quit on you, right?


Bang on there.... exactly what happened.

I did paused pressing quite a bit during prep up to about 255, 3-5 seconds, never anything over that. 

If doing multiple reps the speed increases and makes sense with what you said. 

As for fix, 2 weeks out going to be tough...  all I have left for pressing before meet now is
4x4 245ish after comp squats tomorrow 
X2 RPE 9 then 9x3 240ish next Weds
Then deload week


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## Joliver (Nov 4, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Bang on there.... exactly what happened.
> 
> I did paused pressing quite a bit during prep up to about 255, 3-5 seconds, never anything over that.
> 
> ...



Of course. When the second rep is faster than the first at higher percentage work, it's a neural issue.

Now I'm going to say something that may or may not piss you off...but it's for your own good: you should be doing percentage training and not RPE training in the beginning stages of powerlifting. 

As for the meet, you're going to have to pause at the bottom...how long depends on how much of an ass the dude giving the press command is. You can't sink it. You can't bounce it. So with that said, just do the best you can. Take this new information and incorporate it into your training down the road. Plenty of meets to be had.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Joliver said:


> Of course. When the second rep is faster than the first at higher percentage work, it's a neural issue.
> 
> Now I'm going to say something that may or may not piss you off...but it's for your own good: you should be doing percentage training and not RPE training in the beginning stages of powerlifting.
> 
> As for the meet, you're going to have to pause at the bottom...how long depends on how much of an ass the dude giving the press command is. You can't sink it. You can't bounce it. So with that said, just do the best you can. Take this new information and incorporate it into your training down the road. Plenty of meets to be had.


Yes aware of pause, will do what I can at meet. Most of my numbers are derived from RPE to a % of my 1rm. Example, 
If looking to bench to RPE 8 for a triple I then use about 86% of my rm. If 1rm is 285 then will triple 245. Feels like the chart I use is pretty close....


No that dont piss me off all info is valuable.


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## Joliver (Nov 4, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Yes aware of pause, will do what I can at meet. Most of my numbers are derived from RPE to a % of my 1rm. Example,
> If looking to bench to RPE 8 for a triple I then use about 86% of my rm. If 1rm is 285 then will triple 245. Feels like the chart I use is pretty close....
> 
> 
> No that dont piss me off all info is valuable.


Roger that. And good luck to you in your meet. Let us know how it goes.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Joliver said:


> Roger that. And good luck to you in your meet. Let us know how it goes.


Thanks, feeling lost 2 weeks out.... bench was progressing well then not sure why yesterday went to shit... hit pr on DL Monday so thats going good, squat is hit and miss for me.. first meet now all I want is to get a total and not bomb out


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## Joliver (Nov 4, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Thanks, feeling lost 2 weeks out.... bench was progressing well then not sure why yesterday went to shit... hit pr on DL Monday so thats going good, squat is hit and miss for me.. first meet now all I want is to get a total and not bomb out


All of that is completely normal. You're making good progress...but are streaky. Happens to us all. 

Consistent training reduces inconsistent lifting.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Joliver said:


> All of that is completely normal. You're making good progress...but are streaky. Happens to us all.
> 
> Consistent training reduces inconsistent lifting.


Appreciate your advice


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## Trendkill (Nov 4, 2021)

Why are you trying to hit PRs in your lifts 2 weeks out from a meet?  Openers, ok, but not PRs.  Was this part of your programming?  When does your deload begin?

As for the slow decent, aside from what has already been said, this is usually indicative of an upper back weakness.  The ability to brace and maintain the correct posture when lowering the weight contributes greatly to stability and confidence and allows for a faster eccentric phase.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Trendkill said:


> Why are you trying to hit PRs in your lifts 2 weeks out from a meet?  Openers, ok, but not PRs.  Was this part of your programming?  When does your deload begin?
> 
> As for the slow decent, aside from what has already been said, this is usually indicative of an upper back weakness.  The ability to brace and maintain the correct posture when lowering the weight contributes greatly to stability and confidence and allows for a faster eccentric phase.


4 weeks out was overload which was 3rds plus 10lbs, wrapped, chains, or slingshot, these were a week ago. 

3 weeks out are 2nds which is this week... I got DL PR just because it was there.... these are this week.

2 weeks out, next week are my openers

Then  week out deload week 3 SBD days at 50%


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## Trendkill (Nov 4, 2021)

Ok this makes more sense.  I had my timeline for your meet a bit off.  My two cents - always save those PRs for the platform no matter how good your peak is feeling.  

And hammer that upper back every workout.


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## Powerlifter_500 (Nov 4, 2021)

One thing I've done to help me lower the weight faster while maintaining control is thinking about rowing the weight down into me instead of thinking about resting it on me. I feel consciously thinking of a row helps you keep your back tight which will help give you a more confident feeling with bigger weights.


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## MindlessWork (Nov 4, 2021)

Powerlifter_500 said:


> One thing I've done to help me lower the weight faster while maintaining control is thinking about rowing the weight down into me instead of thinking about resting it on me. I feel consciously thinking of a row helps you keep your back tight which will help give you a more confident feeling with bigger weights.


So you'd say bring the bar down to like an inch above your chest rather than touching and pushing back up?


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## Powerlifter_500 (Nov 4, 2021)

MindlessWork said:


> So you'd say bring the bar down to like an inch above your chest rather than touching and pushing back up?



I mean if you want. That's just a spoto press and they're a legit exercise. 

I was just talking about how you actually lower the weight to your chest. I feel how tight of a base you have to press off of has an influence on how confidently you can move the weight. If you can keep your back tight you'll feel more confident which will make it easier for most people to lower the weight faster.


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## Rot-Iron66 (Nov 4, 2021)

I like a slow descent, while squeezing shoulder blades together, digging shoulders upper back into bench, flaring lats, and slowly rowing/pulling the bar down to me (like coiling) basically tightening everything up on the descent.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Here is the video and there was no pause. Donated blood day before also an issue...


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## Trendkill (Nov 4, 2021)

Honestly your setup looks pretty good.  Sometimes the weight is just too heavy, simple as that.  It didn't appear as though your back flattened out in the bottom.  I can't tell where the spotter touched it but it looked like you struggled at the midway point.  Is that accurate?


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Trendkill said:


> Honestly your setup looks pretty good.  Sometimes the weight is just too heavy, simple as that.  It didn't appear as though your back flattened out in the bottom.  I can't tell where the spotter touched it but it looked like you struggled at the midway point.  Is that accurate?


He didnt say where just that he barely helped but did help.... looking at video yeah probably about halfway


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## FearThaGear (Nov 4, 2021)

I like a slow descent for the first rep on any weight that I use. I use it to gauge how difficult the next few reps will be and also if there will be another rep.

Whenever I see people doing a 20 second set of 10 to 15 reps I typically just wait for the injury to happen.

My rule of thumb is typically to go down as fast as I go up.

In terms of injury prevention, I can do anywhere from 3 to 10 sets of warm-ups before I even begin work sets.


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## Powerlifter_500 (Nov 4, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Here is the video and there was no pause. Donated blood day before also an issue...



It didn't look bad form wise. The only thing I really noticed were your elbows were a bit shaky coming down. It honestly just might not have been a 300lbs bench day that day though. Just don't let it get in your head and keep doing what you need to do to set yourself up for a good meet. You could still get it there.


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## Trendkill (Nov 4, 2021)

I would focus hard on rest, recovery and deloading the next couple weeks.  Obviously I'm not your coach and I'm sure that individual has a solid plan in place.  When you are peaking for a meet it can take a tremendous toll on your musculature but also on your CNS.  A proper taper and deload can lead to supercompensation and magic on meet day.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Powerlifter_500 said:


> It didn't look bad form wise. The only thing I really noticed were your elbows were a bit shaky coming down. It honestly just might not have been a 300lbs bench day that day though. Just don't let it get in your head and keep doing what you need to do to set yourself up for a good meet. You could still get it there.


All intents and purposes that was supposed to be my 2nd at the meet... I did donate blood day before and know that played a role...going to 242 should help bench #


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Trendkill said:


> I would focus hard on rest, recovery and deloading the next couple weeks.  Obviously I'm not your coach and I'm sure that individual has a solid plan in place.  When you are peaking for a meet it can take a tremendous toll on your musculature but also on your CNS.  A proper taper and deload can lead to supercompensation and magic on meet day.


Next week plan is openers the week after is deload. And yeah pretty happy with my coaching


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## FearThaGear (Nov 4, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Here is the video and there was no pause. Donated blood day before also an issue...


With almost no information to go on outside of you trying to perform a one rep max, it almost appears that you either didn't do enough warm ups or didn't properly increase weight enough so you're joints and muscles would be ready for a one rep max.

You look really shaky going down which is typically a sign that your muscles are not warm enough or you made too big of an increase in weight too fast.

It doesn't mean that you can't do the weight.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

FearThaGear said:


> I like a slow descent for the first rep on any weight that I use. I use it to gauge how difficult the next few reps will be and also if there will be another rep.
> 
> Whenever I see people doing a 20 second set of 10 to 15 reps I typically just wait for the injury to happen.
> 
> ...


Lead into that single was
Barx15 different grip widths
135x5
185x3
225x2
245x1
265x1
285x1
Then the 300 so not as much for warm ups as you have.


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## Trendkill (Nov 4, 2021)

When properly conditioned you don't need a lot of warmups for max attempts.  Just hang out in the warm up room at a big powerlifting meet and you'll see what I mean.  I think you progression for this attempt looks good.  I would have gone 225 - 275 -300 but that's just me.  We are contributing to you overthinking this right now which is not good.  Put it behind you, focus on success at the meet and address weaknesses in form and technique after the meet.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 4, 2021)

Trendkill said:


> When properly conditioned you don't need a lot of warmups for max attempts.  Just hang out in the warm up room at a big powerlifting meet and you'll see what I mean.  I think you progression for this attempt looks good.  I would have gone 225 - 275 -300 but that's just me.  We are contributing to you overthinking this right now which is not good.  Put it behind you, focus on success at the meet and address weaknesses in form and technique after the meet.


Will do and thank you


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## dirtys1x (Nov 5, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Lead into that single was
> Barx15 different grip widths
> 135x5
> 185x3
> ...


Glad @Trendkill beat me to it but the 245 265 and 285 are useless. I also think the 185 is too. Just take more time with the 135 to stretch into the movement. Double the reps maybe and slow them down. 135-225-275-300.

As for the slow descent. This is fine. This is only helping you seriously. It’s frustrating because you can see other guys around you slamming 315 on their chest and using it as a mechanical advantage. Lol, that won’t last long, and I promise you they aren’t building proper strength mechanics to push to the next level. Id say that around ~400 lbs that won’t fly. Don’t worry about it. Like everything else, your body will adapt to the pace of your reps and you’ll build the required strength to hit your PR under a controlled, mechanically smooth rep.


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## Worf (Nov 26, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Thanks, feeling lost 2 weeks out.... bench was progressing well then not sure why yesterday went to shit... hit pr on DL Monday so thats going good, squat is hit and miss for me.. first meet now all I want is to get a total and not bomb out


Ahh the old “ wtf” a couple weeks out. You’re on the right track


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## Adrenolin (Nov 26, 2021)

You have that meet yet @Btcowboy


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## Btcowboy (Nov 26, 2021)

Adrenolin said:


> You have that meet yet @Btcowboy


I did this past weekend. 
I ended up with a partial tear of my Adductor and hamstring 2 weeks out. It was looking like a bench only for me. However did the best I could with rehab and managed to do full power. 

Squat kept light due to injury went 3 for 3 top squat 275

Bench opener 265 3 whites, 2nd 285 2 reds they said I sunk the bar after press command, video review shows I did not. 3rd went 297 should have repeated 285 but didnt and couldnt finish the press, same reason too slow on descent.

Deadlift were easy 3 for 3 top set 501. Again had a lot more but still a PR.

Got 1st masters and 2nd open...


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## Steeeve (Nov 27, 2021)

I always end up tempo-ing my descent on my max squat and bench. Touching my chest at the right point and maintaining balance on the combo bench is the difference between 400 paused and 350 paused for me.


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## Btcowboy (Nov 27, 2021)

Steeeve said:


> I always end up tempo-ing my descent on my max squat and bench. Touching my chest at the right point and maintaining balance on the combo bench is the difference between 400 paused and 350 paused for me.


Yeah for sure, counted my tempo on the lower for my 3rd.....5 seconds no wonder I couldn't finish the press lol..... definately am off season thing to fix


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## Steeeve (Nov 27, 2021)

Btcowboy said:


> Yeah for sure, counted my tempo on the lower for my 3rd.....5 seconds no wonder I couldn't finish the press lol..... definately am off season thing to fix


ok ok ok 5 seconds is a bit of a stretch. Joe Sullivan is also a big fan of tempo-ing his descents, especially on his WR squat attempts. Dude is at least doing a 3 count going down


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## Btcowboy (Dec 4, 2021)

Steeeve said:


> ok ok ok 5 seconds is a bit of a stretch. Joe Sullivan is also a big fan of tempo-ing his descents, especially on his WR squat attempts. Dude is at least doing a 3 count going down


Yeah 3 I could live with.


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## Koolio (Dec 15, 2021)

I used to have the same issue...I could do 315x10 but on the descent for the first rep I would come to a complete stop about 5" off of my chest before touching for about 1 second...the next 9 reps were smooth....the issue was overtraining my biceps...they felt like they were going to rip off of my elbows on the first rep...something to consider


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## dragon1952 (Dec 17, 2021)

Koolio said:


> I used to have the same issue...I could do 315x10 but on the descent for the first rep I would come to a complete stop about 5" off of my chest before touching for about 1 second...the next 9 reps were smooth....the issue was overtraining my biceps...they felt like they were going to rip off of my elbows on the first rep...something to consider


That first heavy rep also has a lot to do with the muscle/mind connection. Your mind isn't quite sure yet how much muscle fiber to recruit and then after the first rep it goes, oh shit all hands on deck!


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