# Caber and Prami drawbacks



## Joliver (Jun 2, 2014)

Lots of guys run NPP, deca, and tren.  The most common ancillaries associated with progestin use are caber and prami.  There is an inherent complexity with using these drugs on a regular dosing schedule as a precaution.  Dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome or DAWS.  

For our purposes, dopamine is the primary neuroendocrine inhibitor of the secretion of prolactin, but it does a lot of other shit too. A basic copy and paste from wikipedia tells me that it is also controls motor control, motivation, arousal, cognition, and reward, as well as a number of basic lower-level functions including lactation, sexual gratification, and nausea.

So why do we care?  

If you take too much Dopamine Agonist (DA), you may be the very unlucky bastard who winds up with DAWS.  Someone who winds up with DAWS will find that anyone of the aforementioned functions may be impaired.  You dont want to find yourself on the ass end of the "my sexual gratification button is broken" trip. You CAN become addicted to DAs.  You will withdraw if you become addicted.  

In fact, a lot of the guys who have issues with nandrolone and trenbolone during their cycle end up taking too much to combat the sides and end up attributing the depression and dysfunction from DAWS to their discontinuing the progestin. 

DAWS isnt a light switch.  It isnt a "do i have it" or not.  There are many subtle levels of dopamine level impairment.  

What can you do?

Well, you can stay on a regimented low dose of DAs to prevent prolactin sides.  Also, from personal experience, estrogen can aggravate the problem. Control the E2, and you will be better off than you would be otherwise.  

What you shouldn't do is to solely rely on DAs to alleviate all of the problems from progestin AAS usage.  Sometimes, discontinuing the AAS is better than the alternative.  Brain chemistry is not something that any of us should be tinkering with for recreational purposes.  Though I have no experience with DA withdrawal, rumor on the street is that it is pure hell.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 2, 2014)

They are completely unnecessary as well. I think you forgot to mention that.


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## TheLupinator (Jun 2, 2014)

Good point Joli. I just recently picked up caber for tren, still have yet to use it. I think we jump the gun with DAs a lot of times before we even know for sure where our prolactin and estrogen levels are - as you pointed out estrogen increases prolactin - I have even shown this with my own blood tests - high estro and high prolactin without running nandro or tren.


Also we generally recommend .5mg 2 -3 x / week - Caber also comes in .25mg - This might be a safer starting dose if someone is getting prolactin sides and already have their estrogen in check. 



Great thread Joli


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## DieYoungStrong (Jun 2, 2014)

If you keep your E2 in check, you shouldn't have any need for DA's.


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## DreamChaser (Jun 2, 2014)

Good read have to rethink some things


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 2, 2014)

A post from another Board by Dr. Jim




dr jim said:


> ALL of the side effects you mentioned have been reported with Gaber use, although their frequency and severity are directly proportional to the dosage.
> 
> On average the most common side effects are
> 
> ...


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## DieYoungStrong (Jun 2, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> A post from another Board by Dr. Jim



And Dr. Jim is a smart Dude. Arrogant SOB sometimes, but I would be to if I was him...


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## snake (Jun 2, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> If you keep your E2 in check, you shouldn't have any need for DA's.



All due respect, are you sure about that?


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## SFGiants (Jun 2, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> If you keep your E2 in check, you shouldn't have any need for DA's.



Not true they are 2 different issues.



DieYoungStrong said:


> And Dr. Jim is a smart Dude. Arrogant SOB sometimes, but I would be to if I was him...



And not always correct!



snake said:


> All due respect, are you sure about that?



Keeping e2 in check with an AI will not stop you from lactating and that is why Caber and Prami are use for the lactation.


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## gymrat827 (Jun 2, 2014)

snake said:


> All due respect, are you sure about that?



pretty sure SFG is right........they both have different uses.  And if you have your E2 in check you will still need a tiny dose of prami/caber

Anybody else wana put in their .02......??????


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## SFGiants (Jun 2, 2014)

gymrat827 said:


> pretty sure SFG is right........they both have different uses.  And if you have your E2 in check you will still need a tiny dose of prami/caber
> 
> Anybody else wana put in their .02......??????



Most don't use it unless they start to lactate.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 2, 2014)

Go read Get Some's estrogen conundrum and you will see why you don't need a DA if you control e2.


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## Get Some (Jun 2, 2014)

These are not needed if you keep E2 in check but they will work if things become an issue. The problem is that most who think they are "controlling" their e2 in fact aren't.... without labs you'll never truly know where you are at. Tren actually reduces PR binding affinity more than anything! It only becomes an issue in the presence of high E2.... You can't just take AI's based on a standard protocol and hope things are working out. Get labs done a couple times during one cycle and you should have a pretty good idea of how to run things from there on out! 

BTW... prami will make you sicker than you've ever been and if you don't take it before bed you'll fall flat asleep during the middle of the day


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## TheLupinator (Jun 2, 2014)

Agreed. Estrogen should be in check before considering caber


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## SFGiants (Jun 2, 2014)

I wanna see POB produce milk, video or it didn't happen!


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## Get Some (Jun 2, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> I wanna see POB produce milk, video or it didn't happen!




In for this!


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 2, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> I wanna see POB produce milk, video or it didn't happen!



I will start a puppy rescue and nurse them back to health


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## grizzldsealpoacher (Jun 2, 2014)

So what I am comprehending from this thread is that the majority of you feel that caber is a good thing to have on hand when running 19nor but truly isn't needed unless to combat problems from high e2 levels. So if your e2 is in check you shouldn't run into high prolactin levels ? Could your e2 be in perfect order and you still run into issues from prolactin ?


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## gymrat827 (Jun 2, 2014)

Get Some said:


> BTW... prami will make you sicker than you've ever been and if you don't take it before bed you'll fall flat asleep during the middle of the day



I learned the hard way


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## gymrat827 (Jun 2, 2014)

grizzldsealpoacher said:


> So what I am comprehending from this thread is that the majority of you feel that caber is a good thing to have on hand when running 19nor but truly isn't needed unless to combat problems from high e2 levels. So if your e2 is in check you shouldn't run into high prolactin levels ? *Could your e2 be in perfect order and you still run into issues from prolactin* ?



well not from what has been said so far.  You should just get caber/prami to be kept on hand, in case of quick need.  If you are following GS's advice and getting bloodwork you will know where your E2 is at so you should be able to gauge your AI doses to keep it in good standing........which than you would not need a DA.  


but better to have and not need than to need and not have


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## grizzldsealpoacher (Jun 2, 2014)

gymrat827 said:


> well not from what has been said so far.  You should just get caber/prami to be kept on hand, in case of quick need.  If you are following GS's advice and getting bloodwork you will know where your E2 is at so you should be able to gauge your AI doses to keep it in good standing........which than you would not need a DA.
> 
> 
> but better to have and not need than to need and not have



agreed . bloods are cheap enough if your gonna spend the effort to use aas everyone should di a mid cycle/blast just to see whats doing and that your assumptions of e2 spikes are correct. 

Anyone want to weigh in my other question though can you have prolactin issues with your e2 in check?


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## snake (Jun 2, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Go read Get Some's estrogen conundrum and you will see why you don't need a DA if you control e2.



POB,
Can you point me in the right direction? I'm sure one may play off the other. I think under normal situations they can rise and fall together but with other compounds added, all bets may be off. Teach me, I'm all ears.

God I miss Doc already!


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## ken Sass (Jun 2, 2014)

dopamine also has a effect on depression. shut dopamine down and prepare for a little trip thru hell


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## nastyNate (Jun 2, 2014)

In my experience its not super common to see clinically significant prolactin elevations on the 19-nor compounds. That being said I'm a fan of having dostinex around for good measure but to be honest thats primarily because I just like having chemicals at ready disposal. I also don't mess with the research chems when it comes to dopamine agonist, strictly pharm grade which i'm lucky to have. I've got some concerns with running caber for long periods due to the potential of cardiomyopathy even if it is a small risk. The interaction between prolactin and estrodiol is pretty complicated and, like most other things in physiology, dependent on the individual. 

What I'd say specifically on estrogen is first control your body fat. This is a major determinant of symptomatic gyno and fluid retention from unregulated estrogen production. I also am not a fan of chasing numbers when it comes to estrogen. Treat symptoms not the number, this is a pretty safe bet across the board in medicine. I'm not saying ignore the numbers but if your on cycle doses of test and expect your estrogen to always stick at 30 most people are going to be in for a surprise. Yea, some will sit nice and low most of the time but many will bump up to 5 times normal but have no symptoms of gyno or fluid retention or issues with sex drive. If thats the case I don't sweat it. I'd rather sit at 100 or 200 e2 than crash it. The AI's also are rough on lipid metabolism which is not great considering the effects aas already have on lipids. Personally I'd rather let tren tank my hdl than be obsessed with keeping e2 at 30 and have that trash it. people end up chasing a ghost on this one all too often. 

Another thing to consider with the dopamine agonist is amantadine. Its an old antiviral that has dopamine agonist properties. Ive been surprised that there has not been more mention of this as an ancillary in the setting of prolactin control. It has a milder side effect profile for most people than does caber but is also not as strong an agonist. Its something to consider. 

I would agree with what is posted about the sexual effects of caber. Ive used a good amount of rx caber and not noticed anything on that front.


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## TheLupinator (Jun 3, 2014)

A lot of good shit has been said here and I think this notion of "needing a DA" stems from the belief that you can have low estrogen and still develop "progestin gyno" from tren and deca. I also think we have gotten away from that notion and established the importance of controlling estro as the primary defense against gyno.


Assuming your estrogen is confirmed high out of the normal range and you are encountering gyno symptoms, you should start an AI or SERM. To me bitch tits is more of a worry than maintaining optimal cholesterol levels. 


Once estrogen is at a level where your gyno symptoms dissipate, then you can start to worry about lowering prolactin directly, assuming tests confirm prolactin is high and you are encountering prolactin sides. 


I know for me personally, running test only had my estrogen and prolactin out of range and I still had zero dick issues and my nips didn't leak unless I started pinching them to see if they would leak..... don't do that


Bottom line - if estrogen control does not keep prolactin in range and sides persist, start Caber and try to get away with the least amount possible (.25mg twice a week) - A good principle to follow with all ancillaries


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 3, 2014)

snake said:


> POB,
> Can you point me in the right direction? I'm sure one may play off the other. I think under normal situations they can rise and fall together but with other compounds added, all bets may be off. Teach me, I'm all ears.
> 
> God I miss Doc already!



It's spelled out right in here:

http://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threa...drum-a-Full-Report-of-the-Basic-Understanding


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