# Anabolic Steroids and Sterility



## widehips71 (Jan 4, 2014)

So I've read up a lil about the correlation between AAS and sterility in men, but I'd like to hear from some guys who have either had this problem, or maybe still have a good count of strong swimmers after AAS use.  Which begs the question, HOW MUCH use do you bros feel contributes to this problem?  I understand everybody is different and we won't react or recover from the things we do to our bodies exactly the same, but I'd like to hear some personal experiences or advice on the subject.

And yes.  Since someone is bound to ask whether or not I think I might fall into that demographic, I AM questioning my lil guys.  However, I am holding out hope because I've only cycled twice and don't want to believe that I've damaged myself permanently from those two runs.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 4, 2014)

I guess it's possible, but I doubt 2 cycles are hurting you that much. I was on for pretty much 6-7 years before I had my first kid. But everybody's different. Ever get a sperm count done? Then you'd know for sure.


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## mabdelrasoul (Jan 4, 2014)

get a sperm count done bro. I know of a lot of people that cycle for years and still have kids


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## Yaya (Jan 4, 2014)

I've been juicin off and on for 15 years... Got 1 kid and another on the way... Got the wife pregnant while on high levels of test and mast..


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## widehips71 (Jan 4, 2014)

Damn.  Yeah I haven't been tested.  Only reason I question it is because I buried it to the hilt for over a year with my ex, and nothing.


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## Jada (Jan 4, 2014)

mabdelrasoul said:


> get a sperm count done bro. I know of a lot of people that cycle for years and still have kids



This right here^^ I've done 2cycles with no issue at all , plus branch warren just  had a child. He's been juicin  for yrssss.


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## stonetag (Jan 4, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Damn.  Yeah I haven't been tested.  Only reason I question it is because I buried it to the hilt for over a year with my ex, and nothing.



You may, or your ex, may have other underlying issues, hopefully the ex bro! Get checked out.


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## Big Worm (Jan 4, 2014)

If you need me to stop by and throw a nut in your old lady I'm more than willing to help. 

If you really think there is a problem, go get a test done.  Hcg and clomid works wonders.


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## sfstud33 (Jan 4, 2014)

Clomid is good for pumping up the nuts. I use it twice a week...


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 4, 2014)

From anecdotal evidence (bro's on the boards) it seems like there is a 50/50 chance. Only way to tell is through bloodwork and sperm analysis


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## widehips71 (Jan 5, 2014)

sfstud33 said:


> Clomid is good for pumping up the nuts. I use it twice a week...



Year round?  I've never heard of someone using clomid outside the parameters of PCT


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 5, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Year round?  I've never heard of someone using clomid outside the parameters of PCT



I have.... When she complains about atrophy or when I takes me 3 hours to get off. I will run it 25 mg for a couple weeks.


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## FreeBirdSam (Jan 6, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> From anecdotal evidence (bro's on the boards) it seems like there is a 50/50 chance. Only way to tell is through bloodwork and sperm analysis



Pob forgot to add his contact information to this post so I'll do it for him:

POB@spermTasteTesting.com

He's within a 100,000 variance on his testing, most all of my lab's he's done on mine have came back good.


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## FreeBirdSam (Jan 6, 2014)

As for the OP, frequent HCG/Clomid therapy helps tremendously.  What did your PCT's look like?   And also, to be 100% sure talk to your doctor and they will confirm or deny your fears.   Good luck bro!


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## widehips71 (Jan 6, 2014)

samcooke said:


> As for the OP, frequent HCG/Clomid therapy helps tremendously.  What did your PCT's look like?   And also, to be 100% sure talk to your doctor and they will confirm or deny your fears.   Good luck bro!



Clomid and Nolva the first time.  Can't remember the exact dosage because it was almost 10yrs ago.  

Dude....the second time was almost 8yrs ago and I have one of those nightmare stories where my live in gf became suspicious 8wks in after I magically gained 20lbs.  So she decides to start snooping around the house and found my PCT (which was also clomid and nolva).  Well, finding "drugs" in the house and not knowing better, she throws it away thinking she was doing me a favor.  Yeah you read that right.  Bitch threw away my PCT 2wks before the end of my cycle.  It took everything, including a few prayers to Zues himself, to keep me from putting that bitches head through a wall.  And I mean like repeatedly until she was no longer breathing.  I've actually not wanted to share that story with anyone because of how much of a complete chode I feel like for letting it happen.  Anyways, my source was a buddy I was in the Army with and I didn't have a way to get anything last minute, so I was just pretty much f*cked.  

Which brings me to another point in that I don't actually have a source now so I don't have a way to get clomid or HCG if I wanted to.  Or anything else for that matter.  I've been giving serious thought to trying one of the .net open sources that a couple bros at my gym have directed me to.  But everyone on here is like "don't do it!" and I'm like "I don't have any other choice" and ya'll are like "yes you do it's better to not buy anything" and I'm like "but it's been almost a decade and I really f*ckin want to and I'm pretty sure that's where my Army bro got his stuff anyways" and ya'll are like "but they're all scams" and I'm like "well f*ck me".


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## Stevethedream (Jan 6, 2014)

U should look into greatwhitepeptides.com I for one never bought any pct from them but I have bought some exemestane and letro and was pretty legit. I believe they might even have 30% off too if u use coupon code GWP30 all caps.


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## widehips71 (Jan 6, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I have.... When she complains about atrophy or when I takes me 3 hours to get off. I will run it 25 mg for a couple weeks.



25mg how often POB?


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## widehips71 (Jan 6, 2014)

Stevethedream said:


> U should look into greatwhitepeptides.com I for one never bought any pct from them but I have bought some exemestane and letro and was pretty legit. I believe they might even have 30% off too if u use coupon code GWP30 all caps.



Good lookin out bro!  But I do have some questions...

They have a disclaimer that it's NOT for human use.  I assume that is more of a legality disclaimer to allow it to be sold for "research" purposes?  Also, with it being sold in liquid form how would the preferable method of ingestion/injection be?  Would it need to be diluted or have anything added to it, or is it g2g straight out the bottle?


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> 25mg how often POB?



Every other day


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## AlphaD (Jan 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Good lookin out bro!  But I do have some questions...
> 
> They have a disclaimer that it's NOT for human use.  I assume that is more of a legality disclaimer to allow it to be sold for "research" purposes?  Also, with it being sold in liquid form how would the preferable method of ingestion/injection be?  Would it need to be diluted or have anything added to it, or is it g2g straight out the bottle?



Hey Widehips of course it is a disclaimer not for human use, research peps are to be used for research purposes........!  Yes that is a legal disclaimer, because guess what, you don't have a real prescription to get pharm grade.........  Each bottle come with a oral syringe that you pull up the amount of you run.  Each bottle has a label that says for ex: 25 mg per dose 60ml bottle. Well if whatever your running if you need 25mg, then one full syringe you would pull........


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## widehips71 (Jan 6, 2014)

AlphaD said:


> Hey Widehips of course it is a disclaimer not for human use, research peps are to be used for research purposes........!  Yes that is a legal disclaimer, because guess what, you don't have a real prescription to get pharm grade.........  Each bottle come with a oral syringe that you pull up the amount of you run.  Each bottle has a label that says for ex: 25 mg per dose 60ml bottle. Well if whatever your running if you need 25mg, then one full syringe you would pull........



And drop it under the tongue?  Straight down the hatch?  Or does it matter? 

Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions but I wanna make sure I get it right


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## AlphaD (Jan 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> And drop it under the tongue?  Straight down the hatch?  Or does it matter?
> 
> Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions but I wanna make sure I get it right



Good question.  I just swish around in my mouth then swallow.  Now shit like MK-2866 taste like satans piss itself so I follow down with some water.......


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## Stevethedream (Jan 6, 2014)

AlphaD said:


> Hey Widehips of course it is a disclaimer not for human use, research peps are to be used for research purposes........!  Yes that is a legal disclaimer, because guess what, you don't have a real prescription to get pharm grade.........  Each bottle come with a oral syringe that you pull up the amount of you run.  Each bottle has a label that says for ex: 25 mg per dose 60ml bottle. Well if whatever your running if you need 25mg, then one full syringe you would pull........



This right here widehips↑↑↑↑↑↑ And bro u don't have to apologize for asking to many questions cuz that's why were here bud, to help each other out. It's good to ask more questions. Lol. Its ur health bud...Anyways yea ur gonna wanna mix it with something like milk Gatorade juice etc. whatever ur comfortable wit drinking cuz this stuff taste super bad. Lol. Kind of like when u put ur tongue on a battery n get that zapp feeling. Lol.


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## Stevethedream (Jan 6, 2014)

Alpha ur pretty hardcore bro cuz when I tried it for the first time right outta the plunger I almost threw up. Lol. Or maybe I'm just a big wuss.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> And drop it under the tongue?  Straight down the hatch?  Or does it matter?
> 
> Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions but I wanna make sure I get it right



Most RC's don't taste great - my rats won't touch the stuff. I get the little paper Dixie cups and put some water in them. Drop the dose in the water, and the rats drink it like a shot.

Some guys have tougher rats and just "raw dog" it, if you will, but this method works for me.


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## Hittin (Jan 6, 2014)

I have had 3 children in 5 years all on fairly heavy doses of AAS.  Cruise and you should be fine so long as you get your bloodwork monitored.


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## AlphaD (Jan 6, 2014)

Stevethedream said:


> Alpha ur pretty hardcore bro cuz when I tried it for the first time right outta the plunger I almost threw up. Lol. Or maybe I'm just a big wuss.



Hahaha!  It all taste like shit but i want to get it down quickly!  I don't mind most of them, but MK-2866 thats tough....be easier drinking kerosene....


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## widehips71 (Jan 6, 2014)

You guys have been a huge help and I sure appreciate it!!

Hey Alpha, a lil off topic perhaps but you got me curious about MK-2866 which I had never heard of, so I googled it and read up on it a bit and now I'm fascinated about it's potential with what seems to be very low sides.  What's your take on it?  Worth trying?  How would you cycle the dosages and for how long?  Anything else that should be taken with it?


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## AlphaD (Jan 7, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> You guys have been a huge help and I sure appreciate it!!
> 
> Hey Alpha, a lil off topic perhaps but you got me curious about MK-2866 which I had never heard of, so I googled it and read up on it a bit and now I'm fascinated about it's potential with what seems to be very low sides.  What's your take on it?  Worth trying?  How would you cycle the dosages and for how long?  Anything else that should be taken with it?



I ran it in my pct after a test cycle.  It really worked great. I used it so my strength wouldnt fall off in pct and it kept it up.......as a standalone not sure so take my word for it, you could run 4-6 weeks. Mg not sure exactly where you'de want to be.  Hit up gymrat.....very knowledgeable in this area as well as others. I actually consulted with him about it and peptides and ran after my cycle.  I will tell you this though it is one of the most nastiest tasting things ever!  But it works.  I think Pob also talked about it in a thread here too.


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## Big Worm (Jan 7, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Good lookin out bro!  But I do have some questions...
> 
> They have a disclaimer that it's NOT for human use.  I assume that is more of a legality disclaimer to allow it to be sold for "research" purposes?  Also, with it being sold in liquid form how would the preferable method of ingestion/injection be?  Would it need to be diluted or have anything added to it, or is it g2g straight out the bottle?



its best as a suppository.


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## Tadger (Jan 17, 2014)

WideHips, in response to your initial question:

You are not going to do any permanent damage to your boys by running a cycle.  Hell, you can do it a long time and when you stop, assuming you're not an old geezer that wouldn't have shit for natural test levels anyway, you'll be perfectly fine.  It's akin to running hormonal birth control in females... no different at all.  The male endocrine system is actually far simpler than that of females, so recovery is much easier for us than them.  That said, it may take a good 6 months to fully recover (sure, you'll be back to like 80-90% relatively quickly, but it can take much much longer to get back to normal completely).  Either way, simply because the machinery shuts down for a while doesn't mean you're doing any damage to it.  Your body has a bunch of feedback loops built in, and it's pretty resilient.  The AAS do not have any direct effect on the machinery itself.  When androgen levels simply exceed the threshold limit pre-determined by your genetics in that feedback loop, the control node (hypothalamus) just shuts off the signal to the machinery.  When you come off, testosterone levels drop below that threshold level, and the control node kicks the machinery back into production... might take several weeks/months to come back up to full production, but it will level out eventually.

Now, that said... nandrolones can totally **** up that process.  There is evidence to show that it actually causes the leydig cells to become desensitized to pituitary hormones.  That means, even when the control node is cranking out the ramp up test/spermatogenesis signal... nothing happens... actually, it's just a dramatically diminished response.

As far as the "research" chems go... the boys hit that one on the head.  They only way they can be sold legally without a prescription is if they are "not for human consumption."  They are just as effective, since they are the same compounds... just not as pure, well packaged, etc, as the pharm stuff.  They will still do the trick.  Don't stress about how you take it... just swallow the stuff.  It'll do the job.  They all taste like crap, even the Iron Dragon stuff that is all nice n flavored.  It's a bit more palatable than some placed, but... meh... whatever... it does the job.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 17, 2014)

Tadger said:


> WideHips, in response to your initial question:
> 
> You are not going to do any permanent damage to your boys by running a cycle.  Hell, you can do it a long time and when you stop, assuming you're not an old geezer that wouldn't have shit for natural test levels anyway, you'll be perfectly fine.  It's akin to running hormonal birth control in females... no different at all.  The male endocrine system is actually far simpler than that of females, so recovery is much easier for us than them.  That said, it may take a good 6 months to fully recover (sure, you'll be back to like 80-90% relatively quickly, but it can take much much longer to get back to normal completely).  Either way, simply because the machinery shuts down for a while doesn't mean you're doing any damage to it.  Your body has a bunch of feedback loops built in, and it's pretty resilient.  The AAS do not have any direct effect on the machinery itself.  When androgen levels simply exceed the threshold limit pre-determined by your genetics in that feedback loop, the control node (hypothalamus) just shuts off the signal to the machinery.  When you come off, testosterone levels drop below that threshold level, and the control node kicks the machinery back into production... might take several weeks/months to come back up to full production, but it will level out eventually.
> 
> ...



So what is the basis of this ridiculous claim that running a cycle of steroids won't do permanent damage to you? 

Have you not heard of Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH). Every time you cease testosterone production naturally you lose responsiveness in the testes. HCG can help avoid this but isn't foolproof. Talk to the many people on TRT from juicing and tell me again it doesn't cause lasting damage.


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## cotton2012 (Jan 17, 2014)

Jada said:


> This right here^^ I've done 2cycles with no issue at all , plus branch warren just  had a child. He's been juicin  for yrssss.




Ive often questioned this myself, but just because Branch Warren just had a kid does not mean he was the donor, his wife may have just wanted a baby that bad to go with a third party sperm donor. Or it's possible at some point in the past he had some frozen.


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## widehips71 (Jan 17, 2014)

Thank you Doc.  I was about to jump all over this, but I'll play nice and just see if dude can understand what the actual research says without explaining it in layman's terms as I have done in the past.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764075


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## widehips71 (Jan 17, 2014)

cotton2012 said:


> Ive often questioned this myself, but just because Branch Warren just had a kid does not mean he was the donor, his wife may have just wanted a baby that bad to go with a third party sperm donor. Or it's possible at some point in the past he had some frozen.



Cotton, you have a very insightful and valid point.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 17, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Thank you Doc.  I was about to jump all over this, but I'll play nice and just see if dude can understand what the actual research says without explaining it in layman's terms as I have done in the past.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764075



I haven't seen that study before. Great post Wide!


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 17, 2014)

Tadger said:


> WideHips, in response to your initial question:
> 
> You are not going to do any permanent damage to your boys by running a cycle.  Hell, you can do it a long time and when you stop, assuming you're not an old geezer that wouldn't have shit for natural test levels anyway, you'll be perfectly fine.  It's akin to running hormonal birth control in females... no different at all.  The male endocrine system is actually far simpler than that of females, so recovery is much easier for us than them.  That said, it may take a good 6 months to fully recover (sure, you'll be back to like 80-90% relatively quickly, but it can take much much longer to get back to normal completely).  Either way, simply because the machinery shuts down for a while doesn't mean you're doing any damage to it.  Your body has a bunch of feedback loops built in, and it's pretty resilient.  The AAS do not have any direct effect on the machinery itself.  When androgen levels simply exceed the threshold limit pre-determined by your genetics in that feedback loop, the control node (hypothalamus) just shuts off the signal to the machinery.  When you come off, testosterone levels drop below that threshold level, and the control node kicks the machinery back into production... might take several weeks/months to come back up to full production, but it will level out eventually.
> 
> ...



This post is just garbage. Sorry dude, you shouldn't give out bunk information with a subject as serious as this.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 18, 2014)

Tadger said:


> WideHips, in response to your initial question:
> 
> You are not going to do any permanent damage to your boys by running a cycle.  Hell, you can do it a long time and when you stop, assuming you're not an old geezer that wouldn't have shit for natural test levels anyway, you'll be perfectly fine.  It's akin to running hormonal birth control in females... no different at all.  The male endocrine system is actually far simpler than that of females, so recovery is much easier for us than them.  That said, it may take a good 6 months to fully recover (sure, you'll be back to like 80-90% relatively quickly, but it can take much much longer to get back to normal completely).  Either way, simply because the machinery shuts down for a while doesn't mean you're doing any damage to it.  Your body has a bunch of feedback loops built in, and it's pretty resilient.  The AAS do not have any direct effect on the machinery itself.  When androgen levels simply exceed the threshold limit pre-determined by your genetics in that feedback loop, the control node (hypothalamus) just shuts off the signal to the machinery.  When you come off, testosterone levels drop below that threshold level, and the control node kicks the machinery back into production... might take several weeks/months to come back up to full production, but it will level out eventually.
> 
> ...



Wow. None of that is true. Doc and others will taken care of most of it. I just want to add that research chemicals are NOT legal simply because they are labeled not for human consumption.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 18, 2014)

Is the ghb in my rape kit legal because it says "not for human consumption"?


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## Seeker (Jan 18, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Is the ghb in my rape kit legal because it says "not for human consumption"?



I blame GHB for my 1st born. 

Note: I decided to come back and edit out the rest my post. Being that we have a lot of young guys here and a number of people just starting out, I felt it was the right thing to do.

Seek.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 18, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I blame GHB for my 1st born.
> 
> Note: I decided to come back and edit out the rest my post. Being that we have a lot of young guys here and a number of people just starting out, I felt it was the right thing to do.
> 
> Seek.



I blame ghb for a lot of stuff...

I haven't seen the stuff in like 10 years which isn't a bad thing IMO.


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## Tadger (Jan 19, 2014)

Docd187123 said:
			
		

> Every time you cease testosterone production naturally you lose responsiveness in the testes.


Granted, I've been out of the game for a while, but I really don't recall seeing any research showing that.  If you've got something, I am more than willing to take a look.  I am definitely curious to see the mechanism by which that happens.  



			
				widehips71 said:
			
		

> Thank you Doc.  I was about to jump all over this, but I'll play nice and just see if dude can understand what the actual research says without explaining it in layman's terms as I have done in the past.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764075



I'll take a look to see if I can find where you have addressed this in the past, but you might have to break this one down for me.  I don't have PubMed access anymore, so all I can see is the abstract.  From that all I can tell from the abstract all it says is that 6000+ guys ended up with hypogonadism after a cycle.  Does it detail which compounds they used while on cycle, the duration of the hypogonadism, time since their last cycle, whether or not they ran any PCT, or the type of PCT following their cycles?  I'm also curious if they did any sort of differentiation between low androgen production, and actual suppression of gamete production or if they just lumped all if it together.   Did they make any conclusions about any specific mechanism that causes permanent damage?

 In this game, we all know that if you don't come off correctly, you'll run into issues... and people don't bounce back to 100% for several months, even following good PCT.  I have yet to actually run across anything that definitively shows AAS causing permanent problems.  I have seen some research about nandrolones and metabolites desensitizing leydig cells to pituitary hormones.  It basically showed that even when treated with HCG, that androgen production was still very low for quite a few months following cessation of the nandrolone. Beyond that, all I've seen is essentially that test and or sperm production suppressed for several months following a cycle, and usually the doc uses a combination of HCG and clomiphene to try to correct it... which is not anything new to us.  If you've got more than that, I am definitely interested in seeing it.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tadger said:


> Granted, I've been out of the game for a while, but I really don't recall seeing any research showing that.  If you've got something, I am more than willing to take a look.  I am definitely curious to see the mechanism by which that happens.



It is basic male physiology. The testes while in an atrophied state are largely unresponsive to LH. The longer they remain in this condition the harder it is to reverse. This is a reason for HCG use while on the cycle; it helps prevent it from happening. It is not guaranteed you'll recover even with HCG though and it is reckless to advise anyone that



			
				Tadger said:
			
		

> You are not going to do any permanent damage to your boys by running a cycle. Hell, you can do it a long time and when you stop, assuming you're not an old geezer that wouldn't have shit for natural test levels anyway, you'll be perfectly fine



No one can guarantee recovery. One cycle is enough to cause hypogonadism. A member on another forum I'm on tried a PH cycle and now at the age of 19 is on TRT for life. Multiple restart attempts have failed. He is shutdown. 



> I'll take a look to see if I can find where you have addressed this in the past, but you might have to break this one down for me.  I don't have PubMed access anymore, so all I can see is the abstract.  From that all I can tell from the abstract all it says is that 6000+ guys ended up with hypogonadism after a cycle.  Does it detail which compounds they used while on cycle, the duration of the hypogonadism, time since their last cycle, whether or not they ran any PCT, or the type of PCT following their cycles?  I'm also curious if they did any sort of differentiation between low androgen production, and actual suppression of gamete production or if they just lumped all if it together.   Did they make any conclusions about any specific mechanism that causes permanent damage?
> 
> In this game, we all know that if you don't come off correctly, you'll run into issues... and people don't bounce back to 100% for several months, even following good PCT.  I have yet to actually run across anything that definitively shows AAS causing permanent problems.  I have seen some research about nandrolones and metabolites desensitizing leydig cells to pituitary hormones.  It basically showed that even when treated with HCG, that androgen production was still very low for quite a few months following cessation of the nandrolone. Beyond that, all I've seen is essentially that test and or sperm production suppressed for several months following a cycle, and usually the doc uses a combination of HCG and clomiphene to try to correct it... which is not anything new to us.  If you've got more than that, I am definitely interested in seeing it.



HCG and clomid do not always work to 'cure' hypogonadism. Many many many ppl on TRT sections of the forums have tried clomid, HCG, or both. It does not always work. Let me ask you this question: how many people have you heard coming off TRT from secondary hypogonadism and successfully *maintained* normal testosterone production? 

http://www.asih.net/ASIH%20–%20Towards%20a%20unified%20hypothesis%20of%20anabolic%20steroid%20action.pdf


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## widehips71 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tadger said:


> Granted, I've been out of the game for a while, but I really don't recall seeing any research showing that.  If you've got something, I am more than willing to take a look.  I am definitely curious to see the mechanism by which that happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In this study of 6000+ patients who sought treatment, profound hypogonadism (50 nanograms per deciliter or less) was identified in 97.  43% of those 97 were found to have prior anabolic steroid exposure.

In a follow up survey of 382 men (different men I believe), they found 21% who had previous anabolic steroid use.  Evidence shows that hypogonadal men younger than 50 were greater than 10 times more likely than those over 50 to have "juiced".

It's a fairly new published study so I expect more research to be done in the near future.


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## hulksmash (Jan 19, 2014)

Studies aren't needed for this area of juicing

50/50 chance you will still get a bitch pregnant if you use gear, even if never coming off

HCG will help your chances to get a bitch popped

Just a roll of the dice...especially for those never coming off

And don't take chances even if on-shit ain't fun if it happens and you THOUGHT you were sterile


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