# Sleep stuff



## MrRippedZilla (Nov 28, 2017)

Sleep is a topic that comes up often enough on the board so here is some literature that may interest some folks (if you can't find the full paper to some of these, PM me and I'll send it): 
Effects of tryptophan loading on human cognition, mood, and sleep
The efficacy and safety of exogenous melatonin for primary sleep disorders. A meta-analysis
Effectiveness of Valerian on insomnia: a meta-analysis of randomized placebo-controlled trials
This is a monster, free to read, review paper from one of my favorite researchers: Sleep in Elite Athletes and Nutritional Interventions to Enhance Sleep 


For those too lazy to go through this, here is a brief summary:
- In order to influence sleep, you need to target certain neurotransmitters. Specifically -* 5-HT, gamma-aminobutyric (GABA), histamine, melanin-concentrating hormone (MCH), norepinepthrine and orexin.

*- Diets high in *carbs* tend to help reduce the time it takes to fall asleep. 

- Diets high in *protein* tend to help improve the quality of sleep. 

- Diets high in *fat* tend to negatively impact total sleep time. 

- Being in a *caloric deficit* will reduce sleep quality primarily due to the lower levels of serotonin (although other stuff is involved that I won't get into). 

- In terms of nutritional support, *high GI carbs* (white rice, pasta, bread, etc) are helpful so long as you don't consume them too close to bedtime (1hr window at least). 

- 1g of *tryptophan* can improve both time to fall asleep and quality of sleep. Supplementation or consuming 300g-ish of turkey are two ways to go about it.

- *Melatonin* can improve the time to fall asleep and can be found both in supplement form and some foods (tart cherries for example).

- *Valerian* may also help improve sleep quality. 

- A bunch of other stuff might be useful but the data isn't strong enough for me to include them here.


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## John Ziegler (Nov 28, 2017)

One hour window on the carbs <---- interesting


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## NbleSavage (Nov 28, 2017)

Great posts and good summary - thanks as always, 'zilla.


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## motown1002 (Nov 28, 2017)

Thanks Zilla!  You know that most of us are lazy.  lol


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## snake (Nov 29, 2017)

Ambien (Zolpidem) is the only thing that works for me. I tried almost everything from peptides to melatonin. The 2 things that I think may affect my sleep is eating too close to bedtime and going to sleep with the TV on. I do not see either one of those no-no's changing anytime soon.

Personally, I think my poor sleep is a byproduct of two things; age and having children. The day the wife dropped the first puppy was the end of any good sleep for me.


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## snake (Nov 29, 2017)

Sidenote; That had to be one of the shortest Zilla read in recent history. :32 (18): Thanks brother!


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## Bro Bundy (Nov 29, 2017)

with out some good tree i wont sleep a wink..


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 29, 2017)

snake said:


> Ambien (Zolpidem) is the only thing that works for me. I tried almost everything from peptides to melatonin. The 2 things that I think may affect my sleep is eating too close to bedtime and going to sleep with the TV on. I do not see either one of those no-no's changing anytime soon.
> 
> Personally, I think my poor sleep is a byproduct of two things; age and having children. The day the wife dropped the first puppy was the end of any good sleep for me.


Similar past experience in my case except it was Doxylamine (anti-histamine) that saved me. Then I focused on dialing in my sleep routine (being mindful, not ****ing around with my phone, etc) and slept like a baby with no need for any supps. Though I will say that TRT helped a lot too. 


snake said:


> Sidenote; That had to be one of the shortest Zilla read in recent history. :32 (18): Thanks brother!


And they say I don't listen to feedback...


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## PFM (Nov 29, 2017)

Another amazing post.


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## grizzldsealpoacher (Nov 29, 2017)

I personally use xanax for sleep it works wonders. However I try not to string multiple days together using it, my memory starts to cloud. I have tried natural remedies and nothing seems to work. Mary J is very effective also but unfortunately for me I am not where its legal and I have a job that may test me so I try not to partake


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## stanley (Nov 29, 2017)

I sleep like a baby ,nice wee bit THC before bed time.then its 
zzzzsheep zzzzzz sheep zzzzzzz sheep ,


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## Rot-Iron66 (Nov 29, 2017)

Piss poor sleeper here.

I use Xanax or Valium only when I know I'm wired/cant sleep. (I have a tiny supply of Ambien I use for rare occasions).

Things like Phenibut/Gaba really help on normal nights.
Also the Unisom Gels or Liquid.

Lately I use "Comatize" and "Vicaine PM" together. (I try to have different options so I dont get reliant/tolerance to one substance).
Hope to be retired in 9 years (goal) so I hope the issue goes away as I wont have a set schedule...


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## jennerrator (Nov 29, 2017)

snake said:


> Ambien (Zolpidem) is the only thing that works for me. I tried almost everything from peptides to melatonin. The 2 things that I think may affect my sleep is eating too close to bedtime and going to sleep with the TV on. I do not see either one of those no-no's changing anytime soon.
> 
> Personally, I think my poor sleep is a byproduct of two things; age and having children. The day the wife dropped the first puppy was the end of any good sleep for me.



I couldn't do Ambien as I woke up fuuuked up lol .....and...I have to have darkness/quietness besides having a fan on...lmao


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## John Ziegler (Nov 29, 2017)

Xanex is very addictive and really horrible to kick 

not a good choice for someone trying to find a sleep aide 

IMO


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## Uncle manny (Nov 29, 2017)

I have a one month old and am lucky if I get 3 hours straight but If I do it does me good!


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## BRICKS (Nov 30, 2017)

Good read, thanks Zilla


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Nov 30, 2017)

I think it is important to note caffeine's role in sleep (or how it prevents it). I've definitely noticed that when I workout in the evening and take preworkout before, even if it's only at ~6pm and 100mg caffeine, I still will feel more "energized" and less likely to fall asleep easily (at 11:30pm) than if I workout at 3-3:30pm and take preworkout (even if it's a lot higher amount of caffeine, say 300mg). If you're really worried about sleep, I'd take a look at caffeine intake, whether it be coffee, tea, preworkout, ECA stack, etc, before resorting to drugs. Caffeine can stay in the system as long as 5-6 hours, so if you're working out after work at 6pm and take some preworkout, that might be the reason you're having trouble sleeping. Or, if you're even drinking a cup of coffee at let's say 5 or 6pm, that could also hurt your sleep. 


Has anyone done any research on 5-HTP and sleep? I've seen that it is supposed to help sleep be more "restful", but I mainly take it for appetite suppression and mood boost (definitely noticed the latter, I honestly think it's helped my anxiety and depression tremendously).


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## UrogenitalSubsect (Nov 30, 2017)

Zeigler said:


> Xanex is very addictive and really horrible to kick
> 
> not a good choice for someone trying to find a sleep aide
> 
> IMO



Agreed, if you're at that level I'd recommend contacting your doctor or sticking to weed as a sleep aide. Xanax is not something you really want to be messing around with.


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## Hurt (Nov 30, 2017)

I take Emergen-Zzz every night before bed and it puts me right to sleep


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 30, 2017)

UrogenitalSubsect said:


> I think it is important to note caffeine's role in sleep (or how it prevents it). I've definitely noticed that when I workout in the evening and take preworkout before, even if it's only at ~6pm and 100mg caffeine, I still will feel more "energized" and less likely to fall asleep easily (at 11:30pm) than if I workout at 3-3:30pm and take preworkout (even if it's a lot higher amount of caffeine, say 300mg). If you're really worried about sleep, I'd take a look at caffeine intake, whether it be coffee, tea, preworkout, ECA stack, etc, before resorting to drugs. Caffeine can stay in the system as long as 5-6 hours, so if you're working out after work at 6pm and take some preworkout, that might be the reason you're having trouble sleeping. Or, if you're even drinking a cup of coffee at let's say 5 or 6pm, that could also hurt your sleep.
> 
> Has anyone done any research on 5-HTP and sleep? I've seen that it is supposed to help sleep be more "restful", but I mainly take it for appetite suppression and mood boost (definitely noticed the latter, I honestly think it's helped my anxiety and depression tremendously).


Your point about the impact of stimulants on sleep is a valid & welcome addition. 

Tryptophan (Trp) is the precursor to 5-HTP but an argument could be made that 5-HTP is the better choice since it's used exclusively for serotonin synthesis and doesn't need to compete with other AAs to pass the blood-brain barrier, unlike Trp. Of course by simply adding some carbs into the mix you solve the Trp issue anyway since the rise in insulin promotes skeletal muscle uptake of the other AAs, increasing circulating levels of Trp, which promotes uptake into the brain. 
Either way, I don't recall any human data comparing the effects of the two on sleep but will say that at 300mg per night, 5-HTP did nothing for me. And I was dieting with low serotonin levels so...yea. 

I'm not surprised that it helped with your anxiety & depression since one theory suggests that both are caused by depleted levels of Trp (and therefore 5-HTP). Plenty of data for anxiety (1, 2 & 3) but conflicting, and relatively weak, for depression (1, 2 & 3).  
The appetite suppression is also well documented but I consider it far too weak in this regard to be worthy of any consideration. The serotonin system in general is one of the weaker pathways to target if appetite suppression is the goal. The data suggests it's awesome for this purpose. The multiple experiments I've conducted with different individuals says otherwise. 

Back to the topic at hand, theoretically 5-HTP should be better for sleep than Trp but no comparison has been made within the literature


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## Rot-Iron66 (Nov 30, 2017)

Zeigler said:


> Xanex is very addictive and really horrible to kick
> 
> not a good choice for someone trying to find a sleep aide
> 
> IMO



Its weird, I find it not enjoyable if taken as a "party drug", Dr. prescribes for "as needed" for anxiety.
Makes me too tired during the day, so I just use Phenibut for that if needed. It does put me to sleep though.
Ive never been a pill-guy except when I tore my lower back 25 years ago, the SOMA was good stuff and easily addict-able if continued.
Im glad I ran out of them back then.

But yes, Xanax can be nasty, Ive seen what it did to others...


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## Seeker (Nov 30, 2017)

I've never had trouble sleeping. But this last run with tren gave me a serious case of insomnia. But now that I'm off I'm back to sleeping good again. I look forward to my sleep. I love sleep


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## NbleSavage (Dec 1, 2017)

Seeker said:


> I've never had trouble sleeping. But this last run with tren gave me a serious case of insomnia. But now that I'm off I'm back to sleeping good again. I look forward to my sleep. I love sleep



Tren gets me every time. Night sweats and insomnia. Low dose melatonin helps a wee bit and the occasional ganja does me some good but Tren is a cruel mistress.


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## IHI (Dec 2, 2017)

Been to the damn store twice in last three days, forgot nyquill both times- argh
didnt wanna take the ole trazedone since i have to squat in the morning, but i dont know if its this new cycle or what, but my ass is NOT sleeping for shit


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## Coastie10 (Feb 3, 2018)

Dude great post...I've always slept like shit.  I've done sleep studies, sleep aids, you name it.  I'm most definitely going to incorporate this info into my diet to give it a try


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## mighty (Feb 6, 2018)

For me I notice the higher my protein, the crappier my sleep is


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