# HotNFit E/C Method



## PillarofBalance (May 2, 2012)

The HotnFit E/C Method
Usually when someone asks whats the best way to incorporate ephedrine into their supplementation I wind up referring them to this site. Figured I'd do a c&p and just keep the traffic here 

Introduction

The EC stack is a term meaning ephedrine HCL and caffeine taken together to aid fat loss. Do NOT take the EC stack if you are under 18 years of age. 

If you take an EC stack, I suggest taking 2-3 g of NOW Ultra Omega-3 (fish oils) daily as it may help counteract an increase in blood pressure. Check your blood pressure frequently to be sure it is within the safe range (not pre-hypertension or hypertension range) before and during use of an EC stack. Do not exceed the recommended dose of fish oils as this will put you at risk for internal bleeding (similar to overdosing on aspirin). You may want to add 2 NOW EGCg (green tea extract) daily to the EC stack. Coffee may be substituted for caffeine, 5 oz of coffee contains approximately 80-100 mg of caffeine.

The EC stack was shown through clinical trials (length up to 24 weeks) to increase the basal metabolic rate (calories burned at rest) significantly. It was also shown to help preserve lean body mass on a caloric deficit.

The EC stack is usually taken in 6-8 week cycles, 2-3 times per day, for maximum fat loss. Using the EC stack in a continuous fashion may cause the stimulant effects (such as possible increased blood pressure, increased heart rate, jitters) to dissipate. However, as suggested by the clinical trials, the fat burning effects and muscle sparing effects should continue.

Regarding Aspirin

Popular ephedra supplements of the past often contained aspirin (or its herbal equivalent, white willow bark). I do not endorse adding aspirin to the EC stack. If you wish to add it, stick to the baby aspirin (81mg). I have several reasons for this

1) The major study(24 weeks!) on the efficacy and safety of the EC stack when used over a long term for weight loss did not include aspirin. Yes, it is VERY effective without the aspirin.
Quoting Brian Haycock's article,

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by a calorie restricted diet and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20 mg), caffeine (200 mg) or placebo three times a day for 24 weeks. Average weight loss was significantly greater with the combination than with placebo from week 8 to week 24. Weight loss in both the ephedrine only and the caffeine only groups was similar to that of the placebo group.
2) The "effective dosage" at which aspirin was added to the EC stack was at 325 mg. 325 mg of aspirin 3 times a day puts you at risk for developing ulcers and other gastrointestinal symptoms. Again, if you would like to use it to decrease risks/chances of high blood pressure, stick to the 81mg aspirin.

Quoting RxList's aspirin page
Doses of 1,000 mg per day of aspirin caused gastrointestinal symptoms and bleeding that, in some cases, were clinically significant. In the largest postinfarction study (the Aspirin Myocardial Infarction Study (AMIS) with 4,500 people), the percentage of incidences of gastrointestinal symptoms for the aspirin (1,000 mg of a standard, solid-tablet formulation) and placebo-treated subjects, respectively, were stomach pain (14.5%, 4.4%), heartburn (11.9%, 4.8%), nausea and/or vomiting (7.6%, 2.1%), hospitalization for GI disorder (4.9%, 3.5%). In the A.I. and other trials, aspirin-treated patients had increased rates of gross gastrointestinal bleeding. Symptoms and signs of gastrointestinal irritation were not significantly increased in subjects treated for unstable angina with buffered aspirin in solution.
3) Aspirin is an NSAID (nonsteriodal antiinflammatory drug), and NSAIDs should not be used long term at dosages of ~1000 mg a day except if under the supervision of a physician. 

Dosing based on 20 or 25 mg ephedrine HCL pills (or ephedrine sulfate)

Note: 1E = 20 or 25 mg ephedrine 
and .5E = 10 or 12.5 mg ephedrine

I am assuming caffeine tablets of 200 mg. So 1C = 200 mg, .5C = 100 mg 
The caffeine tablets do not break in half well, approximate is fine.

A pill splitter works well on the ephedrine (can get at any pharmacy).

Day 1 - This day you would just take 1 dose to test whether you are hypersensitive to ephedrine (very rare). The dose will be .5E .5C
- symptoms of fast heart rate, and slight jitters are typical - like the feeling you get from having a lot of coffee.

Day 2-3 - You take 3 doses of .5 E .5C minimum 4 hours apart. I suggest keeping it so your last dose is at least 6 hours away from your bedtime.

Day 4-7 - Your dosing will be 1E 1C, .5E .5C, .5E .5C That is, you take full dose for your first dose only.

Day 8-14 - 1E 1C, 1E 1C, .5E .5C 

Day 15 and onward - 1E 1C 3x/day

If you have trouble sleeping, keep your last dose 6-8 hours pre bed and/or decrease to 2 doses per day.




Dosing based on 8 mg ephedrine HCL pills

Note: 1E = One 8 mg ephedrine HCL pill

I am assuming caffeine tablets of 200 mg.
The caffeine tablets do not break in half well, approximate is fine.

A pill splitter works well on the ephedrine (can get at any pharmacy).

Day 1 - This day you just take 1 dose to test whether you are hypersensitive to ephedrine (very rare). The dose will be 1 E .5C
- symptoms of fast heart rate, and slight jitters are typical - like the feeling you get from having a lot of coffee.

Day 2-3 - You take 3 doses of 1 E .5C minimum 4 hours apart. I suggest keeping it so your last dose is at least 6 hours away from your bedtime.

Day 4-6 - Your dosing will be 2E 1C, 1E .5C, 1E .5C

Day 7-9 - 2E 1C, 2E 1C, 1E .5C

Day 9-11 - 2E 1C 3x/day

Day 12-14 - 3E 1C, 3E 1C, 2E 1C 
Day 15 and onward - 3E 1C 3x/day

If you have trouble sleeping, keep your last dose 6-8 hours pre bed and/or decrease to 2 doses per day.

Things to Note

Note 1 - Do NOT take any other caffeinated products while on EC such as tea, cola, coffee. Drink additional water since caffeine is a diuretic. 

Note 2 - If you have bladder issues/discomfort decrease your dose (either cut it in half, or take 2 doses per day instead of 3).
Note 3 - After ~4 weeks the loss of appetite and extra energy will mellow out, but the thermogenic effects continue for a very long time, so it is your choice whether to cycle off. The fat loss effects should continue. If you choose to take a 2 week break after 6-8 weeks, you can stay on the caffeine. You would go back to day 2 and raise the ephedrine slowly according to the schedule above when you go back on. I do not recommend exceeding 8 straight weeks. Take a minimum 2 week break after 8 weeks. Then restart with day 2.

Note 4 - The loss of appetite can be so severe that you may feel like throwing up if you eat a lot (in the first 1-2 weeks). I suggest eating very small meals (eg. 200 cals each) frequently, and feel free to add things which are not filling eg. cereal with milk, fruit, whey shakes.. try to ensure you eat at least at your BMR.

Note 5 - Taking an asthma inhaler while on EC may lead to overdose (they have similar activity). If you need to take inhalers for asthma, I would suggest NOT taking an EC stack.

Note 6 - Do NOT use in the heat. It is very easy to get overheated due to the thermogenic effects and this puts you at risk. You may want to avoid using this is very warm climates and/or outdoors.

Discontinue use if you experience: irregular heart beat, skipped heart beats, high blood pressure, panic, dizziness, agitation, or any other symptoms that concern you.

An EC Stack can cause your heart rate to rise, and extremely intensity activity should be avoided (eg. HIIT). I suggest not raising your heart rate above 80% MHR during cardio, that is 0.8*(220 - age). Weightlifting is not the same as HIIT as your heart rate does go up high, but you are resting frequently and it goes down. Some sports could be an issue. Remember you can always skip a dose before an activity where this would be an issue!




Contraindications (there may be more, these are some main ones)

Do not use if you are hypersensitive to stimulants or ephedrine.

Do not use EC with SSRIs, SNRIs, MAOI, or other forms of antidepressants, or within 2 weeks of halting/taking antidepressants. Do not use if you have a psychoneurosis (bipolar disorder, severe depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc).

Do not use if you have kidney problems, impaired adrenal function, hypoxia, hypercapnia, acidosis, hypertension, hyperthyroidism, prostatic hypertrophy, diabetes mellitus, cardiovascular disease, or are pregnant or breastfeeding.

Do not use if you have heart palpitations or heart defects. Do not use if you have diabetes.

Additional contraindications for the use of ephedrine include: closed angle glaucoma, phaeochromocytoma, asymmetric septal hypertrophy (idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis), tachyarrhythmias or ventricular fibrillation.

Ephedrine should NOT be used at any time during pregnancy or breastfeeding, or while trying to become pregnant (unless under direction of a doctor).

Ephedrine should not ordinarily be used in those cases where vasopressor drugs may be contraindicated, e. g., in thyrotoxicosis, diabetes, and other cardiovascular disorders.




Shopping in the US

In Stores 

Ephedrine can be found behind the counter in drug stores (eg. Walgreens) in a product called Bronkaid (which is an over the counter asthma med). You can use Bayer's product locator to see which stores have it. Caffeine can be found in drug stores, wal-mart and supplement stores. 

Shopping in Canada

Info for Canada deleted by PoB... Fuck you Canada, ya bunch of inferiority complex having, cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Frequently Asked Questions
1. What is EC? How do I dose it?
EC is a combination of ephedrine and caffeine used for fat loss. People typically use 20-25mg ephedrine and 200mg caffeine, 3 times a day. For safety reasons, it is recommended that dosages are increased very slowly as described above.

2. Can I take EC with xyz supplement?
As a general rule, avoid taking any stimulants with EC. If you have a preworkout product, you can skip a dose of EC to take it.

3. Which supplements would you recommend in addition to the EC?
EGCG, fish oils (see links here) 
Creatine (mono or a non-stim product) - good for keeping strength/lean mass 
Multivitamin (for general health)

4. Why not take aspirin?

I described this above. I HIGHLY suggest you take fish oils, at a EPA + DHA dosing of 1-2 g per day (so 3-6 regular, or 2-3 concentrated omega 3 caps) as it may help lower blood pressure slightly. Some people take 81mg aspirin with the stack and have not reported any issues.

5. What are things to watch out for NOT mentioned thus far? 
Especially if you are low carbing, watch that your potassium intake is at least 2000 mg per day. Low potassium combined with EC can put you at risk for heart palpitations. In reality, you should be getting a 2:1 potassium:sodium ratio. So around 3000-4000 mg of potassium and 1500-2000 mg sodium. Potassium is in a TON of foods. Do not try to supplement it with pills or powders. This can be dangerous too.

If you want to know how much potassium is in your diet, input your diet into NutritionData

Avocado's are rich in potassium and a good choice if you are low carbing.

Also, monitor your blood pressure. If your blood pressure goes outside the normal range, STOP the ec stack. And do not take it if you have borderline high blood pressure.

Don't use it in the heat. People have gotten heatstroke while on EC in the heat, esp. playing sports. This is because it raises your body temperature AND can make you sweat more, and thus you will be more likely to get dehydrated.

6. What is the difference between ephedrine sulfate and ephedrine hcl?
There is very little difference, people have used both.

7. How do I take it in relation to meals?
Up to you, I always took it every 4 hours upon waking INDEPENDENT of when my meals were. Some people take it 30 minutes before meals and report better results.

8. Can I take it just preworkout/precardio?
Some people have, HOWEVER, start with a small dose and ONLY increase if you are not having jitters. And I don't suggest doing workouts with jitters. And don't do your first ever dose preworkout. Remember NOT to get overheated and/or dehydrated.

9. Is EC dangerous?
It's not foolproof. Use with caution, listen to your body, stop taking it if you get negative symptoms. There have been a number of adverse events. Use with extreme caution. If you are worried, don't take it!

10. How to come off of EC with minimal sides?
Drop the ephedrine immediately, taper caffeine at 100 mg less every third day.

11. I have 30 mg ephedrine pills, how do I dose them?
I don't suggest this.

12. Is 2 doses per day effective?
Yes. Go for it if this works better. Sleep is VERY important too.

13. Shouldn't I cycle it every 2 weeks, 4 weeks (whatever)?
Not necessary, as it keeps working even taken for long periods of time.

But I do suggest stopping after 6-8 weeks for a break, otherwise you risk adrenal fatigue from all that caffeine. If you want to take it LONGER than you may want to consider dosing it only 2x/day or 1x/day.

14.Where can I read some scientific studies?
Check out this thread here
Ephedra/Ephedrine Information - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Also, go to Google Scholar and search away.

15. What is this about not doing HIIT?
Well, you can skip an EC dose and do HIIT if you like. The danger is that your heartrate may go too high. If you have a heart rate monitor, keep track of your heart rate. I definitely would not go above 160 bpm. Otherwise, go at a moderate pace. Running should be ok (IF you are used to it), it's sprinting that would be an issue.

16. I've decided I don't want to do an EC stack, do you have other suggestions?

Prolab Thermo Fire, 120 Capsules 
MAN Scorch, 168 Thermo-Caps (If too strong, try 2 capsules only 2-3 times a day)

17. What is a good diet/weightlifting/cardio routine to do on EC stack? 
For information on premade diet and exercise routines as well as information on designing your own diet and exercise routine, see one of the following guides:


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## grizzldsealpoacher (May 2, 2012)

wow bro I thought i broke it down pretty good then I go one thread down and you made me crawl back in my shell lol. Good post my friend


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## gymrat827 (May 2, 2012)

very nice sir


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## Pikiki (May 2, 2012)

Just looking for an answer on this great POB..


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## Lulu66 (May 3, 2012)

Awesome info, right on time too, i was just looking into eca.


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## Curiosity (May 17, 2012)

It's my understanding that the NSAIDs(A component of ECA stack) also interrupt the muscle repair cycle, shit I've been reading so much the last few months I can't find the exact reference.... But aside from the risk of internal bleeding from continuous NSAID use, essentially my understanding is that post-workout inflammation is a crucial part of the muscle healing/building process, and that inflammation is blocked by NSAIDs, and so using NSAIDs before workouts can interfere with the process significantly. If I can find the exact place I read that I will try to remember to add it to this post.


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## Curiosity (May 17, 2012)

alright, found it! quoted directly from Anabolics, 9th edition, by William Llewellyn, under the chapter 'Endocrinology of Muscle Growth':

"Note: Inhibition of the cyclooxygenase-2 enzyme : with anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen, acetaminophen, or aspirin, prevents the
formation of active prostaglandins. The anabolic
cascade is stalled without sufficient
prostaglandin formation (Am J Physiol 'Endocrinol Metab 282:E551-6), interfering with
the normal increase in protein synthesis rates
after exercise. It is often advised to use such
drugs only when necessary if muscle growth is a
key focus."

I knew I read it somewhere.


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## PillarofBalance (May 17, 2012)

This thread doesn't suggest adding asprin... Having said that I offer two points. The effects of NSAIDs on muscle building are over-stated and more importantly, if you're trying to put on muscle, you shouldn't be taking ephedrine anyway. Dont send the body mixed messages.


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## Curiosity (May 18, 2012)

Yes, you are right, the thread didn't suggest taking aspirin. I was just throwing out another reason to not include aspirin. 

And yes, you are right again, most people wouldn't try to take ephedrine to cut and try to build muscle at the same time. I was thinking that even if you aren't trying to build muscle, every time you work out there is some catabolism and some rebuilding of those muscle tissues, even if there is no net gain of muscle mass. And so possibly, according to the quote I posted, taking NSAIDs regularly even when you aren't trying to build muscle could interfere with that process and cause more muscle wasting during a cut than would happen if NSAIDs weren't being used. 

But I've read a lot of your posts POB, and you definitely know your stuff. Certainly not trying to argue with you, I think we both agree that NSAIDs shouldn't be used. Just wanted to add that information and contribute to the knowledge in this thread.


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## PillarofBalance (May 18, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> Yes, you are right, the thread didn't suggest taking aspirin. I was just throwing out another reason to not include aspirin.
> 
> And yes, you are right again, most people wouldn't try to take ephedrine to cut and try to build muscle at the same time. I was thinking that even if you aren't trying to build muscle, every time you work out there is some catabolism and some rebuilding of those muscle tissues, even if there is no net gain of muscle mass. And so possibly, according to the quote I posted, taking NSAIDs regularly even when you aren't trying to build muscle could interfere with that process and cause more muscle wasting during a cut than would happen if NSAIDs weren't being used.
> 
> But I've read a lot of your posts POB, and you definitely know your stuff. Certainly not trying to argue with you, I think we both agree that NSAIDs shouldn't be used. Just wanted to add that information and contribute to the knowledge in this thread.


 
Argue all ya can bro. It's how we learn sometimes 

For me the concern with asprin has always been what is it doing to your stomach. Mmmmmmm ulcers


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## Curiosity (May 18, 2012)

Yeah for sure, it can have some nasty effects if you get in the habit of taking it all the time. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who assume that because its OTC and commonly used that its totally safe and can't have any negative side effects, and they start taking it all day every day just because they're a little sore or something.


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## Malevolence (May 23, 2012)

I want some!!  I remember when I first started working out in 01  You could find that shit anywhere.  I bought ripped fuel from albertsons that was loaded with ephedrine and also preworkout drinks came with that stuff too.  Love that stuff  really gonna have to get some once I am done with this cycle.  Probably good to take after cycle when your Test drops off the earth and your energy is low


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## k_grl9 (Jun 1, 2016)

Hi I'm a female 24 years old, weight 126lbs, 5'2 and I started using the EC stack last month on June 4th. I followed the schedule on this forum and was on my 3 EC pills/day.  I was only on my 2nd day for the 3 pills/day and felt a little breathing problem.  On the 2nd day of the 3 pills I took my last pill around 630pm and went to play some basketball around 730pm. The best way to describe what I felt would be an asthma attack, I couldn't breathe and took a break from the game.  I stayed down the whole game and rested all night but felt like I couldn't breathe. It's been 3 days since the accident but I'm still feeling shortness of breath. My question is do I go on to following the reducing caffeine route or should I just wait it out to see if my body will get back to normal? My current blood pressure is 108/67 and my heart rate is at 46/minute.  I still have a hard time breathing at this rate.  Help! I don't have asthma or any heart problems.


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## NbleSavage (Jul 22, 2021)

k_grl9 said:


> Hi I'm a female 24 years old, weight 126lbs, 5'2 and I started using the EC stack last month on June 4th. I followed the schedule on this forum and was on my 3 EC pills/day.  I was only on my 2nd day for the 3 pills/day and felt a little breathing problem.  On the 2nd day of the 3 pills I took my last pill around 630pm and went to play some basketball around 730pm. The best way to describe what I felt would be an asthma attack, I couldn't breathe and took a break from the game.  I stayed down the whole game and rested all night but felt like I couldn't breathe. It's been 3 days since the accident but I'm still feeling shortness of breath. My question is do I go on to following the reducing caffeine route or should I just wait it out to see if my body will get back to normal? My current blood pressure is 108/67 and my heart rate is at 46/minute.  I still have a hard time breathing at this rate.  Help! I don't have asthma or any heart problems.



You need to come off this stack immediately and see a doctor if you're still having trouble breathing.


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