# Cashout's HRT Exit Strategy



## RowdyBrad

TRT is for life, but what if you wanted to try to get your own test levels back up after it was lowered by AAS or TRT.

Cashout did a great thread on Ology, but it is hard to find after being moved and is valuable, so I am posting the link and an excerpt here.


"As I have recently past my 2 year anniversary of HRT, I have spent some time reflecting on what I have accomplished with this program.
After extensive research, I turned to HRT a possible solution to my declining test levels in 2009. At the time Istarted HRT, my test level was 579 ng/dl. Not low by most standards but about 30% off my normal levels of 900+ ng/dl that I had maintain for some 15 years.
The symptoms of my declining test were as follows...
1. Frequent overtraining. I had reached a point for the first time in my bodybuilding lifestyle where about every 3 months, I would find myself overtrained. In 20 years daily committed train, this had never happened before.
2. Persistent and chronic minor illness. I had begun a steady process of developing repetitive colds and flu-like illnesses that were a function of #1 above.
3. Loss of muscle mass. Because of #1 & especially #2 above, I had drop about nearly 10 pounds of quality muscle.
4. Lack of metal focus. Again, I had never experienced this in my adult life in any capacity. Focus and will are the only things that I have ever possessed in abundance.

In my 2 years on HRT, I can say that I have remedied all of the above symptoms. So, I would declare my HRT a smashing success.
However, there is still one facet of my HRT that I have yet to assess my EXIT STRATEGY.
Like everything business related Ive owned and been involved in, I always have an exit strategy in the event that it is ever needed.
So, at this juncture, I am considering testing my HRT Exit Strategy to see if will indeed produce the results that I expect. 
I am considering this not as a means to quit HRT but to reassure myself that I have covered all my bases and can proceed forward on HRT for the indefinite future knowing that if there is ever an issue down the road, I have already operationalize and tested my exit strategy successfully.
I started constructing my exit strategy based on some of my own previous research and personal experiences from my days using AAS to supplement by competitive bodybuilding. Also, Ive spent a tremendous amount of time and energy in the past 4 weeks discussing my exit strategy with several very knowledgeable physicians. 
So, here is the plan that we have constructed and I will follow


Week HCG clomid Nolva letro
1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
7 40 1.25 M/Th
8 40 1.25 M/Th
9 1.25 M/Th
10 1.25 M/Th

I will take my last 100 mg shot of test cyp on the Monday one week before I start my exit. During the week before exiting, I will also have my blood work done for comparative purposes. 
My blood work will be done again on the Friday of the 3rd week towards the end of the HCG treatments, again when I discontinue the clomid treatments, and finally, two weeks after I complete the Nolva treatments.
So, I hope to kick this exit strategy off on the Monday Dec 5th.
I will chronicle the results here for those who are interested."


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## Zeek

I saw cashout posting on another board today.  somebody get that man over here where he will be respected and appreciated!!


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## AndroSport

He is very wise from the postings i read. 

Thanks rowdy - my head is spinning with TRT & HRT info right now so all of this is helpful.

ZEKE - did the ADVIL help at all?


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## Zeek

AndroSport said:


> He is very wise from the postings i read.
> 
> Thanks rowdy - my head is spinning with TRT & HRT info right now so all of this is helpful.
> 
> ZEKE - did the ADVIL help at all?



 actually the advil did help me that day, thx Andro!


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## DF

Yea, Cashout got a good old fucking on $@""&$ moving his thread.  Too bad we can't seem to reach him.


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## amore169

I also have a lot of respect for cashout, he's a very smart guy that will try to help others with his wisdom.


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## Cashout

Hey guys, just checking in here.

Many of you know, a couple of months ago I moved on from the other site. 

Someone here was kind enough to extend me an invite for a visit so I have opted to take him up on his offer.

Seems like a lot of the old regulars are here now.

Looks like a better place for me.


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## LeanHerm

Ya your talked about and you wernt even.here yet. Lol


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## Cashout

Thanks for the invite Herm!


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## Bullseye Forever

glad you're here Cashout


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## curls

Welcome over here


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## Cashout

I want to add a couple of comment to the original post in this thread....

1) The exit worked exceptionally well for me. In short, once I executed the plan I was able to restore my natural hormone levels to pre-decline levels of about 900 ng/dl.

2) From executing the plan, there is one minor change I'd recommend based on my expereience - increase the letro dosage to 1.25 mg EOD as opposed to M/Th. My estrogen elevated to over 40 during my HCG phase. While not terribly high, this did create some negative feedback and ultimately kept my natural test production lower. Blood works throughout the processes supported this idea and once I actually increase my letro my natural test did actually continue to increase.

3) Because of #2, I extended my taper down of Letro to avoid any type of estrogen rebound. I actually add 4 additional weeks to my taper of letro at the end of the exit.

My last blood profile, March 5th, looked great...my test was close to 900 ng/dl and all my related levels (LH, FSH, E) were all in a normal and acceptable range.

I am now starting my 5th month since the completion of the exit protocol and I have a blood draw scheduled for July 6th at 7:30 am.

So, I'll report some additional information next week.


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## DF

I'm very glad that this has worked out well for you.  Thank you for sharing your exit protocol. Excellent information.


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## Cashout

I've corresponded with a lot of folks about my 'Exit' over the past 6 months and I wanted to reinforce one very important fact again.

Before I did my first steroid cycle at age 18 (yup, you read that correctly) my natural test levels were around 900 ng/dl.

I did a number of cycles from the time I was 18 until I quit competing at age 23. 

After each cycle, which were never more than 12 weeks and never more than 900 mg a week total, I always follow an HCG, Clomid, Nolva PCT and had my test levels check via blood work. Without fail, I was always able to restore my natural test levels to +/- 900ng/dl using that formula.

From the time I was 23 until the time I started HRT in the Fall of 2009 (almost 17 years), I never cycled. I trained and dieted just like I always had but there was no reason for me to cycle since I was not competing.

In that time, my blood work consistently showed a natural test level of near 900 ng/dl.

So, that was clearly my normal natural level.

My point in stating this again is simple. It seems a lot of guys read my exit thread and think that if they follow what I did they too will get a 900 ng/dl natural test level.

Let me say this clearly. If you never had natural test levels that high previously, you are not going to achieve them but using my exit protocol. It very well may take you back to your normal natural test levels but it will not make you something that you never were.

So, if you are going to follow it as a "restart" which I know a lot of guys have done on the other site - your chances of success are pretty good that you'll get the HPTA up and functioning normally again. I know because I've had several guys from the other site do it and tell me it worked for them. One was even able to get his sperm count high enough to get his wife pregnant. Something the Drs told him he was not capable of doing.

That is well and good, just don't expect to hit a 900 natural test level if you have never had one previously...

Regards.


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## BigFella

Hi guys

Dfeaton: Thanks for the invite. You're looking great - except when your avatar is next to Cashout's.

Cash: great to see your posts are now more easily accessible. You are a complete and total inspiration. 

Me: old bastard on TRT for 6 months, 4 on cream, 2 on Test E. Totally transformed mentally, 10% of the way there physically. I'm detoxing off nearly everything at the moment, start the 3J diet - with the whole family - on the weekend.

Life is good again!


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## Cashout

BF - Mindset is by far the most important aspect of this. Strong mind = strong body. Where the mind goes the body follows.


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## DF

BigFella said:


> Hi guys
> 
> *Dfeaton: Thanks for the invite. You're looking great - except when your avatar is next to Cashout's.*Cash: great to see your posts are now more easily accessible. You are a complete and total inspiration.
> 
> Me: old bastard on TRT for 6 months, 4 on cream, 2 on Test E. Totally transformed mentally, 10% of the way there physically. I'm detoxing off nearly everything at the moment, start the 3J diet - with the whole family - on the weekend.
> 
> Life is good again!



OH nice invite you over & thats what I get?  j/k  I enjoy way too many things that Cashout has banished from his diet.  Mmmmm pie, cake, icecream ect....
BF enjoy your time here it is a great place to be.


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## corvettels3

Cashout is the man when it comes to TRT.. I've gain alot of knowledge from his threads..

Dfeaton, thanks for the invite.


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## DF

corvettels3 said:


> Cashout is the man when it comes to TRT.. I've gain alot of knowledge from his threads..
> 
> Dfeaton, thanks for the invite.



Not a problem Corvettels3.  This is a great place to be make friends, learn and add your .02.  Welcome aboard


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## RowdyBrad

Nice to see the TRT crew gaining speed. Let's get this party started.


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## LeanHerm

The old bastards of SI!!!  Lol.


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## Cashout

New numbers from last Friday's blood work...just faxed to me this morning.

Quick summary
Total Test - 893 ng/dl
E - 24.7 
LH - 5.9
FSH - 6.1
Crit - 48.4%

Still rockin' & rollin' au natural. 

I have to go pick up the full print outs later but hormone and CBC look good.

I am now 120 days past the exit.

Since March 5th the only drug that I have put into my body has been 1.25 mg of Proscar daily.

I have not had a test shoot since December 1st 2011.


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## DF

Damn, Cashout I'm jealous of those numbers.  I'm glad for you bro fantastic news.


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## juuced

wow this is amazing.  I would of bet big bucks that those total test numbers would be a lot lower.

btw I am glad I found you again Cashout.  Used to be called Packgus at ology.


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## Cashout

Glad you are here now and good to touch base again.

Things have gone exceptionally well with this exit.

In fact, I am even starting to think that the "one mistake" I made with let my estrogen creep up to +/-40 may have actually helped me overall and not hurt me like I first thought. That is a really long discussion grounded on some evolving theory and I'll save that for another day.


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## juuced

Cashout - will you ever go back on TRT again?   heck if you can maintain 900 ish total test why would you?

at what levels would you have to drop down to?


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## Cashout

juuced said:


> Cashout - will you ever go back on TRT again?   heck if you can maintain 900 ish total test why would you?
> 
> at what levels would you have to drop down to?



I don't plan on it. 900+/- is where my natural levels have always been since the time I was 16-17 years old.

Even after 5 years of cycle when I was competing, I was able to restore that natural test level.

The problem started when my levels dropped to to 579 in 06'. 

In 06' I got caught in what I call the "death spiral" of over training. I started getting colds and flu and that had never happened in my life. When I would recover, of course, I'd train even harder and it happen all over again.

So, I learned a lot about how much my body can actually handle. For the first time in my life, I had to admit that I could actually over train.

In 20 some odd years of training, I never was able to accomplish that. It is true, strange things start to happen as we age.

So, long answer to short question, I think I am smarter now and I can avoid what caused my drop in T the first go around.


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## BigFella

Great feedback Cash. Thanks. Those numbers are beautiful.


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## curls

Cashout how did you feel physically and mentally while on your exit?  Did you loose any muscle?


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## Cashout

As I noted in the original thread on another board, I never experienced and physical downturns, loss of energy, or mental swings during or since the exit. 

It went as smoothly as I could have hoped.

I attribute that to the extensive amount of planning and monitoring that I did with my physicians prior, during, and after the exit.

I have actually gain a couple of pounds of muscle since the exit.


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## mckinnj

Cashout,

I am thinking about starting your restart soon, and I'm hoping you can help me with a couple things?  

The restart calls for Nolvadex, but I seem to have some fairly serious side effects from it's use.  I tried Nolvadex 6+ years ago when I was trying to recover from this steroid induced shutdown, and again when I could not shrink some nagging gyno last year.  Both times I got inflammation in both eyes- red, dry, painful.  I didn't tell the eye doctor what the cause was, but he said the inflammation was fairly serious.  My vision had become extremely blurry for 2-3 weeks.  I wasn't sure it was the NOlvadex until it happened the second time- years later.

Clomid does not seem to cause me any issues at at least 50mg doses.  Can I just take clomid, or is there another SERM I can add that has visual sides nothing like Nolvadex, but can stimulate the same way?  I have heard that Raloxifen is a good alternative, and safe on the eyes.

My second question is regarding blood testing.  I don't have a ton of money to spend on a large panel of tests.  I found a site where I can labs online that would be cost effective, but I am not sure if it is enough, as it does not include SHBG as far as I can see unless it is under the comprehensive metabolic panel> Estradiol- Serum, Luteinizing Hormone (LH), Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH), Testosterone- Serum, Complete Blood Count (CBC), Comprehensive Metabolic Profile

Right now I am under the care of an HRT DR  He is completely against Scally's restart, so there is no hope that he would approve of this restart protocol.  He thinks that those levels of HCG could cause primary hypogonadism by desensitizing the Leydig cells in the testes- any thoughts on that? 


Thanks, Jim


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## Cashout

Jim,

As far as other substitutes for Nolva, I don't know how well, if at all, Ralox would work in place of Nolva. I've never used it personally for PCT/Restart nor have any of the guys with whom I've worked through PCT/Restart. So I don't have any solid evidence from which to form an opinion. I would say if the sides from Nolva are per your description, I would use Ralox instead. No point in those negative effects.

As far as the blood panel goes, there is a link here in another thread that has a blood panel through LabCorp I think that cost about $50 bucks and it includes every marker that you would need. I am not sure where the link is but I know there are guys on here who use it and they could tell you.

As for desensiting the Lydigs with 2000 iu of HCG per app, Lydig cell "desentation" is a theory that was described from research conduct in a petrie dish (in vitro) and has never been demonstrated in vivo. I am suprised your Dr is resistant to Scally's protocol based on that premise.


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## Spongy

Privatemdlabs.com is what you're thinking of (i think) cashout.  The hormone panel for females (yes, females) has everything you should need and is $59.99.  There is a coupon code every month that should give you 15% off and bring the total to $50.90 or so.  This is what i always use and am happy with it.


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## mckinnj

Cashout, Spongy, 

Thanks for the great information.

My Dr is well known in this field.  I believe he has some history with Scally, which may be why he is against his protocol.


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## Mountain Warrior

cashout I don't understand your exit strategy the way you have posted the drug doesage and breakdown.. Are you able to clarify it for us less knowledgable ones please?


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## PillarofBalance

Mountain Warrior said:


> Hi Guys, where is this forum based? The states? Little old New Zealand here.. cheers for the interesting read guys.. Im on TRT and am leaving a lot of this stuff up to my doc as Im unfortunately a real dummy when it comes to this stuff. Its frustrating as a lot of what you guys say just goes way over my head. I have so many questions that are unanswered and am struggling to find the right answers.
> I suspect im not in the right thread for all my questions on TRT but from everything I have read, you seem so knowledgable cashout.
> Can I give you a quick run down on who I am what im on and a few questions about it all?
> Should I start another thread on this topic else where?
> Can you guys help?
> Im not sure whether I should come off TRT.. I was lethargic with out TRT and on it Im fine. The only problem I have at the moment is thinking gets cloudy at times.. And a tinge of lethargy is coming back.. I think this is due to my estrogen levels being at 50 pmol/L. My doc seems to think this is ok but from what I read its too high for a 52 year old..
> Anyway, shall I go in to more detail or should I start another thread on this else where in the forum?



You would do better starting your own thread


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## Mountain Warrior

cheers  I have deleted content and put some thing much more appropriate.
"cashout I don't understand your exit strategy the way you have posted the drug dosage and breakdown.. Are you able to clarify it for us less knowledgeable ones please?"


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## jomamma007

anyone else think 1.25mgs letro eod is excessive? .25mg on 100mg a week TRT crashes my E 
let alone whilst going through a restart


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## UnderDosed

it is but its not a one size fits all type of thing. I am on 1 mg of armidex a day.  It is highly unlikely if you are able to get off it that your natural levels will come back to anything close what they were when you started or else you wouldn't be on it in the first place. There is a reason they say it is for life and it probably will remain that way, seeing how most research companies are not dropping mega bucks or any bucks trying to get people off trt! That is great it worked for you cash out but most people will not be able to get even half the results. Great job though and keep up the great work bro!


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## UnderDosed

Man those are amazing results!!!!


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## Rip

Hi Guys,
I imagine this wouldn't apply to me. I'll be 56yrs old in January and I've been on TRT for about 3 years. I probably need to stay on it.


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## UnderDosed

I would not at your age, you can pm cash out and see what he has to say!


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## jomamma007

UnderDosed said:


> it is but its not a one size fits all type of thing. I am on 1 mg of armidex a day.  It is highly unlikely if you are able to get off it that your natural levels will come back to anything close what they were when you started or else you wouldn't be on it in the first place. There is a reason they say it is for life and it probably will remain that way, seeing how most research companies are not dropping mega bucks or any bucks trying to get people off trt! That is great it worked for you cash out but most people will not be able to get even half the results. Great job though and keep up the great work bro!



Well being 22 my levels shouldn't be as low as they are. I've ruled out thyroid issues, sleep apnea, and pituitary tumors. Looking back through blood work of the last 3 years, (only been on trt for 6 months) I've always had low cortisol and dhea-s. I believe I have adrenal fatigue. After all I have trained over 3 hours a day for the last 7 years, under eat as to make weight for my sport, and indulged in heavy caffeine use to make it through training sessions. 

I believe if I can remedy my adrenals I can recover. I'm pretty sure cashout himself went through the same thing, 
over training + stress that led to his initial decline in testosterone levels. 

I'm not expecting a 900 test level but my natural 384 doesn't cut it, especially with super high SHBG. My normal level was around 20 naturally and after pct is stayed over 60 for 4 months until I began TRT. 

Last time I ran cash's restart my levels were great for 2 months, over 1000 then ended up dropping down the next 2 months into the gutter. Also my SHBG sky rocketed into the 70's plus giving me no free testosterone. 

I want to heal my adrenals as much as I can and gives this restart another shot but I woudln't know what to change to avoid elevated SHBG and to aid in recovery.


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## Rip

Thanks Underdeed. I imagine at my age I am hypogonadal without it. I've been taking 200MG/week for a while now. I'm not taking AI's because my doctor doesn't believe in them and won't prescribe them. Also, I'm not taking HCG, because last time I took it, my nipples started to get a little weird. 
I just got my bloodwork back and I know the Doctor is going to say my test is too high. Here's the results:
Total Testosterone - 938
Free Testosterone - 231.7
Estrodial - 10

What do you think. That's on 200mg/week of Testosterone.


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## jomamma007

results look fine as far as testosterone is concerned. The typical range is 348-1197. What's your docs problem with being in the upper ranges?
on 200mgs per week I'm around ~1500 test level.
Your Estradiol seems very low, you didn't post a range but 10 using the regular or sensitive panel is way too low imo.
You migh have to pay out of pocket to get a legit estradiol test. #estradiol sensitive through labcorp

What do you think. That's on 200mg/week of Testosterone.[/QUOTE]


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## UnderDosed

Rip, my urologist had me on 400 mg every two weeks for a long time with no ai, eventually I got gyno and was pissed at the dr and he still wouldn't give me an ai! I had to see another dr to get one. My uro told me some stupid shit like they have do not know the long term effects or it is not fda approved. Once I saw the dr I am seeing now he completely agreed with me and said the same thing as me testosterone aromatises and was put on my armidex dose. Since then I am at around 12.5 with a reference range going up to 27. I feel great, if your estrogen is very low you will probably have symptoms such as: achey joints,very low sex drive,decreased memory,muscle atrophy, tiredness if that's even a word. I think your results look good, and as long as you have no issues stick with it!


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## jomamma007

UnderDosed said:


> Rip, my urologist had me on 400 mg every two weeks for a long time with no ai, eventually I got gyno and was pissed at the dr and he still wouldn't give me an ai! I had to see another dr to get one. My uro told me some stupid shit like they have do not know the long term effects or it is not fda approved. Once I saw the dr I am seeing now he completely agreed with me and said the same thing as me testosterone aromatises and was put on my armidex dose. Since then I am at around 12.5 with a reference range going up to 27. I feel great, if your estrogen is very low you will probably have symptoms such as: achey joints,very low sex drive,decreased memory,muscle atrophy, *tiredness *if that's even a word. I think your results look good, and as long as you have no issues stick with it!



Lethargy


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## Rip

jomamma007 said:


> results look fine as far as testosterone is concerned. The typical range is 348-1197. What's your docs problem with being in the upper ranges?
> on 200mgs per week I'm around ~1500 test level.
> Your Estradiol seems very low, you didn't post a range but 10 using the regular or sensitive panel is way too low imo.
> You migh have to pay out of pocket to get a legit estradiol test. #estradiol sensitive through labcorp
> 
> What do you think. That's on 200mg/week of Testosterone.


[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know she's going to say it's too high. She always does. The E does seem on the low range. I stopped taking the AI I was taking for now. She refuses to prescribe them, because she says the Endocrinologist she trained with doesn't believe in them. LOL


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## Rip

I'm a 56 year old male who has been on Testosterone continuously for 5 years. 
Am I correct in assuming that this isn't something I should consider?


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## j2048b

Rip said:


> I'm a 56 year old male who has been on Testosterone continuously for 5 years.
> Am I correct in assuming that this isn't something I should consider?



It could work? Never know until u try it?


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## jomamma007

would love to know if Cashouts blood work was done using the standard or sensitive estradiol panel


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## mckinnj

Cashout, can you please expand on your statement regarding estrogen creeping up maybe helping you in the long run?  I've looked back through your posts, and couldn't find a follow up to that statement.



Cashout said:


> Glad you are here now and good to touch base again.
> 
> Things have gone exceptionally well with this exit.
> 
> In fact, I am even starting to think that the "one mistake" I made with let my estrogen creep up to +/-40 may have actually helped me overall and not hurt me like I first thought. That is a really long discussion grounded on some evolving theory and I'll save that for another day.


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## hogs4us2

Cashout,

Welcome back.....I started my HRT under your advise and it's been almost two years and things are great.......let me say a heartfelt thank you as I was totally new to AAS.....and you reached out to help.


Now I have another question.....I'm 47 male and starting HGH .....I need to lose maybe 20-25 pounds in the gym 5 days a week ...do cardio 30 minutes 4 days .....weights every day.....I eat a low carb diet...

I'm doing 1iu a day at 5 days on 2 off.


Any advise?

Again Thanks Cashout to being a friend to so may that will never be able to repay you.


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## j2048b

Guys cash no longer comes on this board... I am sorry but he hasn't in over a year....


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