# Rebuttal to KStarr RE: Knees Out



## PillarofBalance (Nov 12, 2013)

The discussion out there in powerlifting land about Starret's insistance that the knees be trust out over the ankles when squatting to eliminate knee injuries continues on... Here is the latest rebuttal and what I believe to be the most true. It is also better documented in my opinion. 

If you're a technical lifting geek like me this is worth the read.  

http://dsstrength.com/2013/11/11/supple-leopards-vs-the-world-my-take-on-the-knees-out-debate/


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## bubbagump (Nov 14, 2013)

Do you have any links to vids to see what it actually looks like?  Must not have my feet right or something.  I always tend to bring my knees in mid lift.


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## yeti (Jan 29, 2014)

I don't know about Oly, but from a PL perspective, I think the "intent" to shove knees out is a good idea. Capt. Kirk, Ed Coan, etc etc... all the greats sorta-kinda do it. But then again, we use a much wider stance than the oly guys, whether it's raw or geared or w/e. 
Thanks for the article - it was a great read. Especially after Brandon Lilly's injury... scared the shitballs out of me, that did...


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 29, 2014)

True oly squats are a whole different animal then pl squats. P


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 29, 2014)

yeti said:


> I don't know about Oly, but from a PL perspective, I think the "intent" to shove knees out is a good idea. Capt. Kirk, Ed Coan, etc etc... all the greats sorta-kinda do it. But then again, we use a much wider stance than the oly guys, whether it's raw or geared or w/e.
> Thanks for the article - it was a great read. Especially after Brandon Lilly's injury... scared the shitballs out of me, that did...



Take a look at Dan Green. Watch his knees right as he comes out of the hole.


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## Big Worm (Jan 29, 2014)

1. I aint reading all that shit.
2. Kelly Starret is a fag.
3. Put your knees wherever they need to be for you to squat the most weight.


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## yeti (Jan 29, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Take a look at Dan Green. Watch his knees right as he comes out of the hole.



Didn't he do that video on JTS with the knees coming in? 
I think Chad Smith does that on his squats as well... 
You have a great point. I should really try looking at my knees the next time I squat. 
idk why people overthink this stuff... just squat. Babies squat Oly style perfectly...
It's awesome to delve deeper into the science of it all, but I just don't think it's worth it for these experts to be arguing all the time.


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## Joliver (Jan 29, 2014)

The following is a quote from the article:  _I found no evidence suggestion that “getting more” external rotation and abduction when squatting past 90 degrees maintains congruency and minimizes passive tension.  In fact, by shoving your knees out maximally, you would actually increase ligamentous (passive) tension, and limit your ability to attain more hip flexion.  It is shown that full hip flexion (≥120°) decreases passive tension of the capsular ligaments, and increases tension in the glute max.  Full hip flexion also mechanically prepares the adductors to help with hip extension.2  So, if you are limiting hip flexion in any way, you are limiting the rubber band effect of glute max and adductors.  Where I come from, the goal of a squat is to stand up, so maximally loading the muscles that help you do that is probably a good idea_



I am a wide stance, knee out squatter.  I need the stopping power ligamentous tension.  When the author suggests that the greater than 120° flexion decreases passive tension of the capsular ligaments and increases the tension of the glutes, he is telling me that I must travel greater than the required "hip crease lower than top of knee" position and lose the stopping power of that passive tension in order to obtain active glute tension--which for me, would necessitate a lighter load. 

A tight hip will ultimately lend itself to a shortened lifting career, but the potential of using your passive ligamentous tension is greater that relying on depth for increased active stabilization and tension--a la Pete Rubish.  

Someone mentioned Coan earlier--Ed had his hip replaced.  Ed's knee folded under a squat (similar to Mark Bell, and Brandon Lilly).  This is what powerlifters do.  Ride the lightning--knowing that one day we will be electrocuted.  Any load bearing structure, must pull its own weight--sadly enough, ligaments included.  

I believe this article is intended to satisfy the question of what is the maximum load that can safely be hoisted by a lifter that wants to enjoy a long and injury free career.  Tight hips, knees out will simply satisfy the maximum load portion of the equation.  

I welcome any thoughts.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 29, 2014)

joliver said:


> The following is a quote from the article:  _I found no evidence suggestion that “getting more” external rotation and abduction when squatting past 90 degrees maintains congruency and minimizes passive tension.  In fact, by shoving your knees out maximally, you would actually increase ligamentous (passive) tension, and limit your ability to attain more hip flexion.  It is shown that full hip flexion (≥120°) decreases passive tension of the capsular ligaments, and increases tension in the glute max.  Full hip flexion also mechanically prepares the adductors to help with hip extension.2  So, if you are limiting hip flexion in any way, you are limiting the rubber band effect of glute max and adductors.  Where I come from, the goal of a squat is to stand up, so maximally loading the muscles that help you do that is probably a good idea_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You and I have a similar squat it seems. If i try to "put the brakes on" in my decent I will always squat high but at my width I get that stretch reflex just barely below parallel.  It looks like you are saying that this makes us more injury prone than the "dive bombers" like Pete Rubish? Or do I have that backwards. Because the way Pete squats he loads his quad tendons in an unruly manner. That is worse. We are spreading the load out amongst the entire posterior chain. Pete simply doesn't have the leverages to accomplish this. It's why he is a fantastic deadlifter.


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## Joliver (Jan 29, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> You and I have a similar squat it seems. If i try to "put the brakes on" in my decent I will always squat high but at my width I get that stretch reflex just barely below parallel.  It looks like you are saying that this makes us more injury prone than the "dive bombers" like Pete Rubish? Or do I have that backwards. Because the way Pete squats he loads his quad tendons in an unruly manner. That is worse. We are spreading the load out amongst the entire posterior chain. Pete simply doesn't have the leverages to accomplish this. It's why he is a fantastic deadlifter.



It seems like we are on the same page here.  Actively braking my squat either stops me high, or makes the descent like taking 10 bebe's kids on a roadtrip--IT LASTS FOREVER.  I position my feet, knees, legs, and hips in a manner where my passive tension supremely aids in my reversal strength stopping power.  It's like having a suit made of your own tendons.  The ultimate result is injury, but it does enable maximal load.  I believe a higher maximal load than allowing your knees to naturally track.  

Pete Rubish loads his shit like he doesn't like it.  He uses more kinetic loading of his tendons than I have seen of many PLers.  I believe he is less likely to suffer lateral injury in favor of quadriceps/patellar tendon injuries.  Not throwing stones at his technique because it illustrates true strength--using reversal strength as your total braking power.  Probably ill advised...but that is the kind of guy Rubish is....I watched the "backyard" squat meet where he walked all of the squats out even though they used a monolift.


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