# Possible Gyno?



## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey guys, would be grateful for some help from you more experienced members.

I was on an oral cycle, 100mg tbol and 75mg Anavar every day. I started to get symptoms or gyno - my nipples became really sore, could feel them all the time. Now I know some of you may view it impossible to get gyno with tbol and var since neither aromatise. However it could've been caused purely by the hormone fluctuations or maybe one of my compounds isn't what I thought it was.

So I started taking 20mg Nolva everyday and these symptoms went away so I dropped the dose to 20 EOD. a week later (3 days ago) the symptoms come back again despite still taking 20mg Nolva EOD. 

So I decided enough, started my pct and stopped the AAS. So yesterday I took 100mg clomid, 40 mg Nolva and threw in 0.5mg letro (bit paranoid about gyno). Same today but 1mg letro. Nipples are less sore today but there seems to be a deeper ache in my general central/lower pec area.

Is this going to fix my issues? My serm's and letro are all pharma grade. 


Thanks for taking the time to read this!


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## jyoung8j (Dec 9, 2013)

May wanna post up in new members forum... say hey and tell us a little about urself.. y just a oral only cycle.. this is weird to me.. sure bros will chime in shortly..


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## Joliver (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Hey guys, would be grateful for some help from you more experienced members.
> 
> I was on an oral cycle, 100mg tbol and 75mg Anavar every day. I started to get symptoms or gyno - my nipples became really sore, could feel them all the time. Now I know some of you may view it impossible to get gyno with tbol and var since neither aromatise. However it could've been caused purely by the hormone fluctuations or maybe one of my compounds isn't what I thought it was.
> 
> ...



Oral only cycle...not the best idea.  Generally, you wont see many estrogen related issues with tbol or anavar.  I got tbol that turned out to be dbol once.  Not saying that happened here, but to answer your question, letro will annihilate your estrogen, and nolva should compete for the receptors, so you shouldn't have a problem with gyno now.  Watch out with letro, it will put your dick in the dirt.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

joliver said:


> Oral only cycle...not the best idea.  Generally, you wont see many estrogen related issues with tbol or anavar.  I got tbol that turned out to be dbol once.  Not saying that happened here, but to answer your question, letro will annihilate your estrogen, and nolva should compete for the receptors, so you shouldn't have a problem with gyno now.  Watch out with letro, it will put your dick in the dirt.



No probably not, with hindsight. Didn't want to pin first time though. 

Thanks, that was my logic as well, but I'm fairly new so wanted to get feedback on it.


How long till the soreness/other symptoms start to go down?


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## ImDennis (Dec 9, 2013)

you obviously have no researched anything mogy, u just took stuff, letro shuts you down... why would you pct and take letro? also if your taking 100mg of tbol and 75mg of var, why not just man up and stick a needle in your ass.. its alot cheaper and alot more safer... gl with your pct and gyno though.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

ImDennis said:


> you obviously have no researched anything mogy, u just took stuff, letro shuts you down... why would you pct and take letro? also if your taking 100mg of tbol and 75mg of var, why not just man up and stick a needle in your ass.. its alot cheaper and alot more safer... gl with your pct and gyno though.



Thanks for that presumptive post. You seem pretty convinced I did no research.

Yet;
I have pharma grade serms and AI to hand for the off chance gyno occurred, pretty forward thinking for someone who just took stuff? I mean ****, I'd be impressed someone who hadn't done research knew what serms and AI's even were. 
I understand my compounds, their anabolic/androgenic ratios.
Letro was not part of my pct, but has been temporarily added in to combat the gyno. Other than that my pct is spot on, only other thing you could do would be add HCG in but that would be overkill (also funny how I know what HCG is with no research). 
I also appreciated the possibility of not getting the compounds I thought I was getting.

So yeah, I didn't go into this with my eyes closed, I did research.


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## ImDennis (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Thanks for that presumptive post. You seem pretty convinced I did no research.
> 
> Yet;
> I have pharma grade serms and AI to hand for the off chance gyno occurred, pretty forward thinking for someone who just took stuff?
> ...




hcg and pct together would be pointless, just like taking letro and pct is pointless... just because you have pharma grade doesn't mean much nor does knowing the aa ratios halotestin has 1,900/850 and yet you wont see much size gain from it, running oral only cycle makes me believe you did just do it with ur eyes closed

edit- no one can tell you if you got gyno, go to a doc, he'll send you get scans, they'll rub some kinda gel on your chest, use this little thing and slide it around, within 2 weeks you'll know.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

ImDennis said:


> hcg and pct together would be pointless, just like taking letro and pct is pointless... just because you have pharma grade doesn't mean much nor does knowing the aa ratios halotestin has 1,900/850 and yet you wont see much size gain from it, running oral only cycle makes me believe you did just do it with ur eyes closed
> 
> edit- no one can tell you if you got gyno, go to a doc, he'll send you get scans, they'll rub some kinda gel on your chest, use this little thing and slide it around, within 2 weeks you'll know.



Right, forgive me if I question the opinion of someone who criticises someone's research and then decided HCG in pct is completely pointless. I've read a lot of articles, from respected people advocating it.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. 
When you take AAS LH levels decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, this causes you're testes to shrink
Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hCG administered everyday was enough to preserve or restore full testicular function without causing desensitization/saturation associated with high doses of hCG. 

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH. 
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.



From some research (taken from a recent article by the Endocrinology Society) 

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation.
Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results. 
A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion.
Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma.
The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response.


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## SuperBane (Dec 9, 2013)

Cmon Dennis the guy more or less said he wasn't ready for needles. 
A lot of people get excited and rush in. Can't thrash him over the spilled milk bro.
He found himself in the right place = UGBB.

Mogy, There are a lot of guys who can help you here.
Best advice I have to give is be humble. Some of these guys come off as dickheads but they have the best intentions.

I think you need to learn more about the basics. Then find your feet.
If needles aren't your thing? Better figure out how to make a transdermal - Test.
OR just stay natty.
Oral only cycles are a no-no. (most people coming from a pro hormone background tend to make this mistake.)

Goodluck.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

ImDennis said:


> hcg and pct together would be pointless, just like taking letro and pct is pointless... just because you have pharma grade doesn't mean much nor does knowing the aa ratios halotestin has 1,900/850 and yet you wont see much size gain from it, running oral only cycle makes me believe you did just do it with ur eyes closed
> 
> edit- no one can tell you if you got gyno, go to a doc, he'll send you get scans, they'll rub some kinda gel on your chest, use this little thing and slide it around, within 2 weeks you'll know.



Also how would I be bandying terminology around with you such as lh, fsh, HCG, serm, AI etc if I haven't researched?


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## SuperBane (Dec 9, 2013)

Most guys run HCG during cycle or after their last pin for two weeks prior to starting PCT bro.
Show a little bit more respect to Dennis as he was only trying to help.

If help is what you are looking for .....


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## ImDennis (Dec 9, 2013)

all that researching and i dont really care... you take hcg before you start your nolva and clomid... basic protocol is either 500 during cycle or blast 1k ed for 10 days and on the 11th day start pct, i never said hcg wouldn't help, you use it as a jump start but theres no point in taking it while already in ur pct with nolva and clomid


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## SuperBane (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Also how would I be bandying terminology around with you such as lh, fsh, HCG, serm, AI etc if I haven't researched?



Then if you had researched you would have found out an oral only cycle is a no,no.
Rookie mistake number one.
Two orals at once on top of that?

C'mon man did you come here for help? Or are you trolling for a war of words?

This is going to be good...


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

SuperBane said:


> Cmon Dennis the guy more or less said he wasn't ready for needles.
> A lot of people get excited and rush in. Can't thrash him over the spilled milk bro.
> He found himself in the right place = UGBB.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'll do my best. I'm here to learn. 

Next time I cycle I'll just pin, decided this isn't worth the effort in the end!


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

SuperBane said:


> Then if you had researched you would have found out an oral only cycle is a no,no.
> Rookie mistake number one.
> Two orals at once on top of that?
> 
> ...



I'm here for help, totally.

However I don't like being likened to those that literally buy the first compound they find and start slamming it into themselves, surely my posts have made it clear I'm not _that_ type of person? 

I agree I've probably not respected the health risks of two 17 alpha alkylated steroids. But what I was taken technically should have been very unlikely to give me the problem I currently have. 

I'm not trolling, I apologise if I offended anyone.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

SuperBane said:


> Most guys run HCG during cycle or after their last pin for two weeks prior to starting PCT bro.
> Show a little bit more respect to Dennis as he was only trying to help.
> 
> If help is what you are looking for .....



Of course. I was just arguing that if you didn't run it beforehand, it would only improve your pct if you added it in. 

Anyway, let's not argue about pct protocols.

I agree I should have researched more, though I have yet to learn anything new which would have caused me to avoid my current problem..


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## SuperBane (Dec 9, 2013)

You said it yourself ..... your t-bol may have been dbol.
Or you var was a low dosed dbol & winny mix.

As for learning something new, You could wait til the rest of the guys get online or search the site.
There are plenty or very imformative threads located here at UGBB


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## Joliver (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> No probably not, with hindsight. Didn't want to pin first time though.
> 
> Thanks, that was my logic as well, but I'm fairly new so wanted to get feedback on it.
> 
> ...



I would think that you would be in the clear in a couple of days.  Unless you feel hard knots under your nips, you don't have anything lasting.  Letro is potent.  Some say potent enough to reverse gyno.


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## Popeye (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Of course. I was just arguing that if you didn't run it beforehand, it would only improve your pct if you added it in.



Mogy...reading your scientific articles and learning words does not mean you understand shit...your 'know it all' attitude is comical...example^^^^^WRONG!

Listen...Nobody here owes you shit, so if you want to be part of our community and would like to discuss AAS, diet, lifting...grow some thicker skin and have some respect for our members. 

Hopefully some nice guy here will still help ya, because your attitude is immature as fuk...


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 9, 2013)

how do u get gyno from drugs that dont convert to estrogen...unless your shit is not tbol but dbol


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 9, 2013)

oral only cycle lol


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

Popeye said:


> Mogy...reading your scientific articles and learning words does not mean you understand shit...your 'know it all' attitude is comical...example^^^^^WRONG!
> 
> Listen...Nobody here owes you shit, so if you want to be part of our community and would like to discuss AAS, diet, lifting...grow some thicker skin and have some respect for our members.
> 
> Hopefully some nice guy here will still help ya, because your attitude is immature as fuk...



Okay, biologically, why is HCG detrimental to pct? Providing you use a low enough dose to avoid desensitising the leydig cells.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

Brother Bundy said:


> how do u get gyno from drugs that dont convert to estrogen...unless your shit is not tbol but dbol



Could be weak dbol in the tbol. Could just be it messing with my hormones, eg test:e2 ratio getting messed.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

joliver said:


> I would think that you would be in the clear in a couple of days.  Unless you feel hard knots under your nips, you don't have anything lasting.  Letro is potent.  Some say potent enough to reverse gyno.



Cheers bud


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## gymrat827 (Dec 9, 2013)

keep taking the nolva @ 20mg every day, get on a low dose of aromasin to get E down.  Continue on for 5 months (if it takes that long).....than blast the last tit bits with letro @ 2.5mg for 10-12 days.  

You could take ralox instead.  works better than nolva.....pretty much the exact same dosing schedule.


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## shenky (Dec 9, 2013)

Yo Mogy, if there's a next time, just pin, my man. IMO, it sound worse than it is because needles have a horrid stigma attached to them.


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

gymrat827 said:


> keep taking the nolva @ 20mg every day, get on a low dose of aromasin to get E down.  Continue on for 5 months (if it takes that long).....than blast the last tit bits with letro @ 2.5mg for 10-12 days.
> 
> You could take ralox instead.  works better than nolva.....pretty much the exact same dosing schedule.



Yeah letro is a little to powerful but all I have for the moment. Thanks.



shenky said:


> Yo Mogy, if there's a next time, just pin, my man. IMO, it sound worse than it is because needles have a horrid stigma attached to them.



I will, lesson learnt haha!


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## DF (Dec 9, 2013)

Hell dont worry about pinning.  You could even use slin pins to start.....


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## jyoung8j (Dec 9, 2013)

Imo and I'm sure everyone will agree.. never do a oral only cycle again and every cycle must use test as a base.. a test cycle should of been ur first cycle.. dntb a pussy needles dnt hurt tht bad.. my girl has even pinned..


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## Mogy (Dec 9, 2013)

Popeye said:


> Mogy...reading your scientific articles and learning words does not mean you understand shit...your 'know it all' attitude is comical...example^^^^^WRONG!
> 
> Listen...Nobody here owes you shit, so if you want to be part of our community and would like to discuss AAS, diet, lifting...grow some thicker skin and have some respect for our members.
> 
> Hopefully some nice guy here will still help ya, because your attitude is immature as fuk...



Still waiting for you to enlighten me on the negative impact of HCG on your hpta.


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## Azog (Dec 9, 2013)

Take gymrat's advice on how to get rid of the gyno.

Bundy is also spot on. The "fluctuations" in hormones you think may be occuring are not what caused your gyno. Your "tbol" and "var" did. I put them in quotations, because at this point they are most certainly not what you think they are. Tbol and Var will not give you gyno. It is simply not possible. What you have is likely fake, and some other AAS (prolly dbol). Good luck in getting rid of the gyno. Find yourself a new source too!


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## gymrat827 (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Yeah letro is a little to powerful but all I have for the moment. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I will, lesson learnt haha!



get some ralox than.  caber would be nice too, but not 100% necessary.


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## Popeye (Dec 9, 2013)

Mogy said:


> Still waiting for you to enlighten me on the negative impact of HCG on your hpta.




First off...you probably don't need HCG for your oral only cycle anyway...HCG is typically used for long and/or heavy cycles, not pussy ones.

Second...If you want your poor little nipples to continue makin you shed tears, go ahead and blast the shit out of HCG during your PCT. HCG is suppressive on your endo testosterone...exactly what you don't want to do during PCT...AND it has a very HIGH aromatization rate. You sound like you have more than enough estrogen as it is...

Third...HCG is used during and/or after cycle to help your tiny little balls plump up in preparation for the drugs Nolva/Clomid to do their work...using all three simultaneously is counter-productive to recovery. HCG causes a rise in test and aromatized estrogen that will interfere with the HPTA making your recovery situation worse! However...if you get your HCG straight from the source...you can drink pregnant womens piss during PCT with little to no HPTA interference...


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## SuperBane (Dec 9, 2013)

Popeye said:


> However...if you get your HCG straight from the source...you can drink pregnant womens piss during PCT with little to no HPTA interference...



I'm ****in dying over here LOL!


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