# Need to know best amino's to take for prevention on muscle loss



## lightwt44 (May 14, 2014)

I just think you know the best amino's to be taking while doing cardio to prevent from losing the muscle I have gained


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## Get Some (May 14, 2014)

Glycine, Ornithine, Arginine, Lysine

Those are really the only 4 you need to have in your arsenal but others won't do any harm. Consider adding some waxy maize as well!


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 14, 2014)

If you eat some carbs and protein before training it makes amino acid supplementation largely worthless. They become more important if you're training fasted.


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## Get Some (May 14, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> If you eat some carbs and protein before training it makes amino acid supplementation largely worthless. They become more important if you're training fasted.



This is true, but I also subscribe to the method of eating farther away from lifting sessions than most. That way I can eat 1.5 hrs or more prior to lifting to give my insulin levels a chance to spike and supplement the aminos much closer to lifting with something like grapefruit seed extract to enhance absorption


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 14, 2014)

Get Some said:


> This is true, but I also subscribe to the method of eating farther away from lifting sessions than most. That way I can eat 1.5 hrs or more prior to lifting to give my insulin levels a chance to spike and supplement the aminos much closer to lifting with something like grapefruit seed extract to enhance absorption



I'm not sure I understand this fully. Are you saying you eat 1.5hrs pre-workout or even more? Not that there's anything wrong with that but even after 3-4hrs the food you eat is still being digested and absorbed. 

Do you know which CYP enzymes are responsible for metabolism of amino acids? Reason I ask is bc to my knowledge grapefruit will only inhibit the CYP3A4 enzyme (which is what a good amount of drugs are metabolized by) and thus increase their absorption by allowing them to stay in the bloodstream longer. I don't think the CYP3A4 enzyme is responsible for metabolism of amino acids but I can't say definitively either. Perhaps you know?


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## Get Some (May 15, 2014)

I would imagine 3A4 and 2C9 are the most relevant here.... inhibition of digestive enzymes allows for higher peak plasma concentrations of the administered drug, which is why I have always argued that including GSE as a filler in oral steroid preparations is a good idea. In all the studies I have read, it appears that most grapefruit seed extract products available at local retailers include benzethonium chloride as a preservative and this is shown to be the main culprit for adverse reactions/complications. Some P450s show overlapping substrate selectivity, so I also cannot comment on whether or not individualized circumstances result in decreased metabolic rates for amino acids while supplementing GSE. 

In layman's terms, I was simply stating what works for me and sharing that with you guys. I am not a doctor but do have extensive knowledge in the field and am always looking to learn more. If any of you do have a medical background please feel free to chime in on any post at any time because I feel it would benefit us all to know things from that perspective. Anyone can copy/paste some info from an article written by someone else, but to digest that information (you see what I did there? haha) and regurgitate it in a manner that best suits our community is only beneficial. Very few people take the time to read articles but they would like to know the information contained in them. 

And yes I do eat 1.5 to 2 hrs before working out because I feel that timing suits me the best. Any longer than that and I'm not getting the benefit of increased mitochondrial activity. Eating too close to a workout can actually lead to mitochondrial retardation or failure.... eating too far away utilizes too much of the body's stored energy (for lifting anyway).


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 15, 2014)

Get Some said:


> I would imagine 3A4 and 2C9 are the most relevant here.... inhibition of digestive enzymes allows for higher peak plasma concentrations of the administered drug, which is why I have always argued that including GSE as a filler in oral steroid preparations is a good idea. In all the studies I have read, it appears that most grapefruit seed extract products available at local retailers include benzethonium chloride as a preservative and this is shown to be the main culprit for adverse reactions/complications. Some P450s show overlapping substrate selectivity, so I also cannot comment on whether or not individualized circumstances result in decreased metabolic rates for amino acids while supplementing GSE.
> 
> In layman's terms, I was simply stating what works for me and sharing that with you guys. I am not a doctor but do have extensive knowledge in the field and am always looking to learn more. If any of you do have a medical background please feel free to chime in on any post at any time because I feel it would benefit us all to know things from that perspective. Anyone can copy/paste some info from an article written by someone else, but to digest that information (you see what I did there? haha) and regurgitate it in a manner that best suits our community is only beneficial. Very few people take the time to read articles but they would like to know the information contained in them.
> 
> And yes I do eat 1.5 to 2 hrs before working out because I feel that timing suits me the best. Any longer than that and I'm not getting the benefit of increased mitochondrial activity. Eating too close to a workout can actually lead to mitochondrial retardation or failure.... eating too far away utilizes too much of the body's stored energy (for lifting anyway).



Fair enough brother. I appreciate you explaining your position to me and respect what you offer the community. I'm no doctor either but I do have an obsessive interest in digesting information and presenting it to others as you mentioned. Thanks again GetSome


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## Get Some (May 15, 2014)

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one! haha... thanks for questioning a few things, always gets my brain going and leads to more knowledge.


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## Anabolic Reality (May 15, 2014)

lightwt44 said:


> I just think you know the best amino's to be taking while doing cardio to prevent from losing the muscle I have gained



Grab a copy of "Body-opus" by dan duchaine. He has a real good section on amino acids in there. Helped me out a ton when deciding my diet and supplementation.


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## TheLupinator (May 15, 2014)

From what I've read, protein from whole foods provides amino acids that establish a semi constant rate of muscle protein synthesis, given you eat at least every 4hrs, and even whey protein wont absorb quick enough to really increase MPS rates around your workout.. Most pre & post workout nutrition studies use amino acids or hydrosylate protein. so like getsome, I eat meals away from workout times (bc it makes little difference) and supplement bcaas pre & 1hr post wo to increase mps rates around my workout


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## Anabolic Reality (May 15, 2014)

Amino acids are the broken down goodies that protein gives us. That's why doc said they are relatively useless if you consume plenty of protein throughout the day and you are not in deficit.


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## Get Some (May 15, 2014)

Amino acids are mostly hydrophilic, so you will piss them out if they are not used in a timely manner. P450 will not have enough time to latch them onto water molecules and dispatch of them if you take a big dose preworkout. Does some still get wasted? Yes. Is it more beneficial than eating a healthy diet alone? yes


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 15, 2014)

Anabolic Reality said:


> Amino acids are the broken down goodies that protein gives us. That's why doc said they are relatively useless if you consume plenty of protein throughout the day and you are not in deficit.



That's exactly my point Anabolic. If you consume adequate protein, especial if in a hypercaloric diet, their benefits are negligible since you're already getting plenty of them through diet or protein supplementation.


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## TheLupinator (May 16, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> That's exactly my point Anabolic. If you consume adequate protein, especial if in a hypercaloric diet, their benefits are negligible since you're already getting plenty of them through diet or protein supplementation.



But we are talking about during and post exercise - the time when your body can go into a negative protein balance. You need increased aminos at that time. BCAAs allow you to properly time amino acid needs bc they are quick bursts that help shift your NPB positive.


Whole food meals split throughout the day is like using an ak-47 to hit a pinpoint target - sure you'll hit it but there will be waste. easier to have a stream of amino acids tailored to what your body needs at that time.


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## TheLupinator (May 16, 2014)

I agree that building muscle requires a hypercaloric diet, and from a nutritional stand point, gains will always be influenced by total cals more than anything.. but she is talking about losing muscle, so I'd assume she's running a deficit 


Btw lightwt44, I take USP Labs Modern BCAA+

If you search around you can find it for less than $25 for 30 servings and really you only need half a serving right before exercise


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 16, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> But we are talking about during and post exercise - the time when your body can go into a negative protein balance. You need increased aminos at that time. BCAAs allow you to properly time amino acid needs bc they are quick bursts that help shift your NPB positive.
> 
> 
> Whole food meals split throughout the day is like using an ak-47 to hit a pinpoint target - sure you'll hit it but there will be waste. easier to have a stream of amino acids tailored to what your body needs at that time.



You will never fully prevent a negative protein balance regardless of the amount of gear and supps you run. Not only that but protein balance on it's own is not an accurate indicator of actual muscle store changes. Furthermore, the body is constantly going through muscle loss and gain periods. Think long term not short term. 

Why would you need to time BCCA's when eating whole protein sources (food, whey, casein, etc) will provide a sustained release of amino acids, including BCAAs, for hours and hours? Whey protein peaks blood amino acid levels in around 20min, casein slightly longer, whole food sources longer than that. Whey also has a high concentration of amino acids present in it so why buy another supplement specifically for BCAAs when I'm getting plenty from other sources? 

One way to help minimize muscle protein breakdown....take protein before training as well as carbs and make sure you don't dip into liver glycogen stores. Cheaper and more effective than spending money on more supplements.


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## TheLupinator (May 16, 2014)

Its not how long it takes to peak but rather how high is that peak. Its like comparing enanthate to prop, the difference is in how high the peak is bc they both peak within 48hrs


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## TheLupinator (May 16, 2014)

Not saying you're wrong, but I subscribe to the thought of spiking aminos around my workouts to help with muscle protein synthesis.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 16, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> Its not how long it takes to peak but rather how high is that peak. Its like comparing enanthate to prop, the difference is in how high the peak is bc they both peak within 48hrs



In that case the evidence would need to show some benefit of a quicker peak of serum amino acid levels which has not been shown in peer reviewed literature Time and time again. Conversely, it's been shown many times over that a mix of slower and faster release protein around the workout time is more beneficial than a quicker releasing protein. The reason being slower releasing proteins usually have a greater effect at preventing proteolytic responses from training. Casein is much batter at preventing catabolism than whey is. 

I noticed you mentioned hydrolysates earlier. On average for all protein sources, a hydrolyzed version will be absorbed 6min faster than a non-hydrolyzed version of the same protein. A 6min difference doesn't justify the dramatic price increase IMO and no benefits were found by having protein be absorbed and digested 6min faster. 



TheLupinator said:


> Not saying you're wrong, but I subscribe to the thought of spiking aminos around my workouts to help with muscle protein synthesis.



Neither am I brother. I always respect your opinions and enjoy reading your posts. We just see things differently in this case. I subscribe to the idea that if we're already getting adequate protein, and 15-25% of that already being BCAAs, means we're already getting a good amount of BCAAs, minimizing extra cals from not taking them, getting the extra benefits of other types of protein, et. 

End of the day if whT you're doing is working, don't change it until you hit a wall. As always. Lup, a good discussion stimulates thought


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## JAXNY (May 16, 2014)

Ok Spock, Einstein and the professor.  I'm sure you have the girl pulling the hair out of her head trying to interpret all that. 
Simply put you can drink 25 grams of whey protein before cardio. I am not a believer in taking carbs or waxy maze before cardio, that may be controversial with the dream team here. You can also fill a water bottle with some powdered aminos and sip it during your cardio or right before, not 100 percent that that would be completely beneficial but it wouldn't do any harm. That's exactly what I do. But if your doing cardio correctly and not doing an excessive amount of time your cardio should be aerobic and not anaerobic. 
What is it that you do and for how long?  
You ggentlemen can get back to solving the meaning of the universe LOL. Just jk.


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## gymrat827 (May 16, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> Ok Spock, Einstein and the professor.  I'm sure you have the girl pulling the hair out of her head trying to interpret all that.
> Simply put you can drink 25 grams of whey protein before cardio. I am not a believer in taking carbs or waxy maze before cardio, that may be controversial with the dream team here. You can also fill a water bottle with some powdered aminos and sip it during your cardio or right before, not 100 percent that that would be completely beneficial but it wouldn't do any harm. That's exactly what I do. But if your doing cardio correctly and not doing an excessive amount of time your cardio should be aerobic and not anaerobic.
> What is it that you do and for how long?
> You ggentlemen can get back to solving the meaning of the universe LOL. Just jk.



x2x...

for a more basic trainer or individual looking to preserve muscle.....take 20g whey before you workout, or anytime you see yourself going 4-6hrs without a meal.  No need to figure out what these two are discussing.


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## Get Some (May 16, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> Ok Spock, Einstein and the professor.  I'm sure you have the girl pulling the hair out of her head trying to interpret all that.
> Simply put you can drink 25 grams of whey protein before cardio. I am not a believer in taking carbs or waxy maze before cardio, that may be controversial with the dream team here. You can also fill a water bottle with some powdered aminos and sip it during your cardio or right before, not 100 percent that that would be completely beneficial but it wouldn't do any harm. That's exactly what I do. But if your doing cardio correctly and not doing an excessive amount of time your cardio should be aerobic and not anaerobic.
> What is it that you do and for how long?
> You ggentlemen can get back to solving the meaning of the universe LOL. Just jk.



I was speaking purely based on weight training, I apologize if I overlooked that in the OP's post if she was talking specifically about cardio. For me, I am a strict believer in early morning fasted cardio and post weight training cardio (because it's a nearly fasted state).


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## TheLupinator (May 16, 2014)

If I wasn't speaking in layman's terms, my suggestion is BCAA pre-workout / pre-cardio..... I'll try not to explain my reasoning as in-depth lol, I just know I wouldn't want someone's advice that basically ends with "trust me bro"


sorry lightwt, I know I'm a dork


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## Get Some (May 16, 2014)

I just realized I completely misread the original post... the best thing you can do to keep muscle is to do HIIT cardio and eat MORE OFTEN during the day... satiety is key to preserving muscle


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## JAXNY (May 17, 2014)

USP LABS modern BCAA micronized amino acid powder, is a good one that I'm using currently. I put 2 scoops in a water bottle and take it to the gym.


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## bvs (May 17, 2014)

i use scivation xtend not that its necessary at all but if you can afford it its not a bad little bonus and i like the taste so its an alternative to other way less healthy flavoured drinks


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