# Tren and Test; What are the best ratios for building lean mass



## gfunky (Aug 2, 2012)

I wanted to post this to find out from Tren experienced users what they feel is the best ratios and doses to run these compounds for a lean mass bulk. 
I have heard run tren higher than test, run test higher than tren, have seen many many logs of each way. Giving what seems to be good results from both.  It appears at some point the sides get higher.   

What I am really looking for is what are the reasons to go one way or another?  Is it all bro science or is there actual reasoning for going one way or the other??  Where do you find doses to have more success and less sides?


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## sfstud33 (Aug 2, 2012)

I ran test 500mg / week and tren homebrewed/finaplix first at 37.5mg eod then bumped to 75mg M/W/T

I had the night sweats, and also found that getting there during sex took longer. Otherwise everything was fine.


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## Infantry87 (Aug 2, 2012)

Bro, Ive heard the best is always tren higher because it gets the receptor and by far tren is highly more anabolic and androgenic than test. Honestly you could try test at around 200-300/wk and keep the tren around 400-475/wk (100mg EOD or 125mg EOD)and see where that gets you. Lower or higher the dose depending on how to react to the compounds and vice versa. Honeslty, there are by far way more guys experienced in this compound than I am. Just wait for them to chime in and give you the right direction to go. But what I just suggested to you is gonna be my next cycle but with masteron the same dose as tren.


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## gfunky (Aug 2, 2012)

The receptor thing makes some sense, but are there not enough receptors either way I mean there are people doing 1 gm per week of compounds and their receptors are processing it all??  I would really love Cash out or Moppy to chime in they seem to always have the real science behind their reasons.


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## Infantry87 (Aug 2, 2012)

gfunky said:


> The receptor thing makes some sense, but are there not enough receptors either way I mean there are people doing 1 gm per week of compounds and their receptors are processing it all??  I would really love Cash out or Moppy to chime in they seem to always have the real science behind their reasons.



I dont think that they CAN or ARE processing all the MG's from running the high doses. I personally think that at a certain dose, your body shuts the rest of it out of the receptors, so your actually wasting some of the compound more than actually benefiting from it .


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## DarksideSix (Aug 2, 2012)

I've ran this with test higher, tren higher, and same dose.  

from my experience, running tren at a higher dose yielded me the best results with much lower sides.  since they both compete for the same receptors, and we all know tren always wins because it is far more stronger than test, that means if you run test at higher amounts then you are wasting it.  the receptors can only take in so much and anything else gets converted to estrogen. which in turn leaves you with unwanted sides.  

I have found that running just enough test to keep your libido up.....roughly 250-300mg per week with tren around 500wk and that is the sweet spot.  you'll reap the benefits of the tren....which is what you want, and you should have very minimal sides.   of corse with tren you may sweat a little more, or have vivid dreams but you have to take the good with the bad.


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## Cobra Strike (Aug 2, 2012)

Basically what dark said. The only way for you to find your own sweet spot is through trial and error. No one can tell you what your sweet spot is but you...this is where personal experience comes into play


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## 63Vette (Aug 2, 2012)

X2 for what dark side said. Run the tren higher if you can and you will have fewer sides and get better results IMHO.


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## Four1Thr33 (Aug 2, 2012)

on my tren 500 test 400 cycle... had almost no sides, just like 4 nights of sweats out of my 20 week cycle (on week 17)
the recomp was amazing


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## Oenomaus (Aug 2, 2012)

I've only run them once & I ran test Higher. No libido sides but plenty of sleepless/Sweaty nights. For a bit of change (and experience) I'll run tren higher on my next run. (Test C 500/Tren E 400)


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## Zeek (Aug 2, 2012)

20 weeks of tren , wow is all I can say. I would jump of a bridge around week 15 lol  





Four1Thr33 said:


> on my tren 500 test 400 cycle... had almost no sides, just like 4 nights of sweats out of my 20 week cycle (on week 17)
> the recomp was amazing


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## biggerben692000 (Aug 3, 2012)

gfunky said:


> The receptor thing makes some sense, but are there not enough receptors either way I mean there are people doing 1 gm per week of compounds and their receptors are processing it all??  I would really love Cash out or Moppy to chime in they seem to always have the real science behind their reasons.



Hey there brother. Science is cool. But only to a point. Real life trial and error is the real teacher. I've run low dose test(250mg test e) and 800mg trenE week with a couple of other compounds as well. I looked lean and hard. I didn't get as big or gain as much weight as I did when my test was up to a gram and my tren was about even. 
Shorter ester tren hits me differently as well also. TrenA and para/tren hex I like better than enanthate. 
Some guys say they get less bloat with less test. I believe most bloating comes from their diet. People think they're eating clean and they're not. Processed food has so much sodium. Guys say they bloat from d-bol? Clean diet, an A1 d-bol and test equal no bloat gains.
You'll get different answers here. The fun is being your own guinea pig.


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## biggerben692000 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekiel said:


> 20 weeks of tren , wow is all I can say. I would jump of a bridge around week 15 lol



I just dropped the tren after 28 weeks.


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## gfunky (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok so here is what I am thinking guys tell me what you think.

week 1-10 Tren ace 140mg EOD
week 3-12/14  Test Cyp 400 mg
week 1-3 test prop 100mg EOD
week 1-3 test cyp 200mg working up to 400mg by end week 3
caber on hand not sure when to start or how much was thinking .5mg 3x per week
adex .5mg E3D

Diet lean bulk working with spongy for the next year straight

Sound like a winner?


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## Cobra Strike (Aug 3, 2012)

week 1-10 tren ace 150mg mon/wed/fri
week 1-14 test c 200mg mon/fri
week 1-4 test p 100mg mon/wed/fri
caber .5mg e3d (to start)
adex .5mg eod (to start)

I dont know why guys try to make it so hard with the eod bullshit...no need to keep track like that..mon/wed/fri is very simple

also...the tapering is never a good idea so leave that one out as well.

(this layout is my opinion based on the info you have given, it can be altered to your liking)


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## DarksideSix (Aug 3, 2012)

looks well laid out but i don't understand why you don't just run prop all the way through??  you'll be pinnine EOD anyways.  With prop i experience a lot less bloat and a more leaner loof through my cycle.  just my .02


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## gfunky (Aug 3, 2012)

DarksideSix said:


> looks well laid out but i don't understand why you don't just run prop all the way through??  you'll be pinnine EOD anyways.  With prop i experience a lot less bloat and a more leaner loof through my cycle.  just my .02



Well I have already a shit ton of cyp that needs to used at some point....  I did not get any bloat from my cyp last cycle.  I think that may be your diet man.......   I was thinking about prop for the whole thing but cyp is actually more anabolic and I dont mind gaining some water weight it is a lean bulk!


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## DarksideSix (Aug 3, 2012)

how is cyp more anabolic??  test is test.


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## gfunky (Aug 3, 2012)

DarksideSix said:


> how is cyp more anabolic??  test is test.





It is a good read.


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 3, 2012)

Pretty sure posting AR's bullshit is a grave sin on the boards. May admins have mercy on your soul!


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## 63Vette (Aug 3, 2012)

It is a good read but I see one MAJOR flaw - the study is based completely on ONE injection and does not account for the stability advantage of using a long ester over the minor fluctuations of frequent pinning of a short ester. If a long term study was preformed I would hypothesize that, if injections of a short ester (test P, Npp, etc) were given frequently enough to sustain stable hormonal levels  there would be no significant difference in anabolic or androgenic effects. 

Either way, in practical terms, matching esters IMHO is best practice and any all edged minor difference in the effects can be easily compensated for via diet and by controlling estrogen conversion.

But that's just my opinion....
Vette


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## Moppy1 (Aug 4, 2012)

DarksideSix said:


> I've ran this with test higher, tren higher, and same dose.
> 
> from my experience, running tren at a higher dose yielded me the best results with much lower sides.  since they both compete for the same receptors, and we all know tren always wins because it is far more stronger than test, that means if you run test at higher amounts then you are wasting it.  the receptors can only take in so much and anything else gets converted to estrogen. which in turn leaves you with unwanted sides.
> 
> I have found that running just enough test to keep your libido up.....roughly 250-300mg per week with tren around 500wk and that is the sweet spot.  you'll reap the benefits of the tren....which is what you want, and you should have very minimal sides.   of corse with tren you may sweat a little more, or have vivid dreams but you have to take the good with the bad.




I completely agree with Darksidesix.  Tren slightly higher (40-50mg/ED) then test (300 mg Test a week).  Works great for me, and some test is good, but there might be some risk of test competing for Tren on the androgen receptor (AR).  In addition to the AR, there is a protein in blood called SHBP (steroid hormone binding protein) that acts as a reservoir for for all steroids and is why increasing Test dosage gives more effect.  There are not really any strong medical studies in people to suggest that different steroids compete differently for the AR and for SHBP, but I bet my shrunken left nut that they do (there are studies in cultured cells that show this).  SO its not total dosage of a compound but also its affinity for the AR and SHBP.  Bottom line, try a cycle like Dark said as a start, with Tren slightly higher.  Adjust accordingly and to your sides.


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## Get Some (Aug 6, 2012)

Wow, can't believe I missed this...sit back and buckle up...


1. Anthony Roberts is a complete tool. Almost none of his articles are based on factual evidence and he is just in it for the money. He posts up people's personal information who try to call him out. He is an internet bully, period. I'm not going to go through his whole life story and background, but you can look it up.

2. In that AR article, here is a quote from Anthony Roberts:

"…I just can’t be 100% sure on it. But I hope you joined me in that logical leap…because it sure gives us a safe landing on the other side, doesn’t it?"

Once again, pure speculation on his part. Too bad it seems like I am smarter than he is and can come up with my own plausible conclusion. From what he is saying, if Test Prop give you that "harder look" it would most likely be more androgenic than test cypionate or other longer esters. But, what we know about esters already disputes that fact. Look at any other drug on the market and you'll see that many of them are available in a number of different esters or "release times." This does not in any way alter the way that the drug acts or it's properties beyond the point at which the ester is connected to the molecule. However, it is the time in which the delivery takes place that has everything to do with it. The longer it takes to get into your system, the more likely it is that you will be in an "anabolic" state. What AR fails to mention is that "FOOD" is the most anabolic thing on the planet. So mentioniong that something is more anabolic is rather useless without considering diet. Plus, why would being more anabolic than androgenic be useful to most? Another thing he failed to mention that was right in front of his face was *ESTER WEIGHT*. Few people realize that when esters are "cleaved" they attach to adipose tissue. Well, longer esters have a higher ester weight per mg. So, this would be another explanation for the "bloat" that people experience with longer esters of test. 

In just a few short minutes I have given you several reason never to read another article ever written by AR again and instead listen to the bros who know what they are talking about. AR confuses people with his "scientific" talk and then writes short summaries at the end that don't summarize the scientific point he was trying to make at all. But those "summaries" sound great to people who skip over the scientific stuff and just read the summaries. See how easy it is to deceive people on the internet? All you need is a computer and a little scientific knwoledge....just enough to confuse the average person into believing you know what you are talking about. It makes me sad that people like him dilute this world with their agonizingly impenetrable brains that just refuse to see the truth. He spent all that time telling you things about esters that are basicaly useless. He could have easily spent his time talking about how you can achieve higher levels with longer esters than short ones because of the larger single doses and infrequency fo dosing. But instead he chose to write an articel that most people don't get much out of. In fact, taking a picture of me taking a shit on his laptop would be more correctly educational than what he types and calls an "article." He really should retitle his blog, "Opinions of an Asshole"


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## Get Some (Aug 6, 2012)

Now to respond to the OP....

For the longest time, it was though that when you run deca or tren you should run the test at "double" the dose of either of the aforementioned. So, I tried this by running my test at double the tren dose....not a very good idea since I'm prone to gyno. As some of you have seen in my "Estrogen Conundrum" thread, the more estrogen you build up, the better the chance you will build up progesterone as well. If you can keep the estrogen under control, then you can easily keep the prog sides under control as well. Tren gyno is no joke either, closest thing to boobs that I've ever had, it was disgusting. 

So, now knowing that I go for the approach that seems to work best for just about everything. For me, that's about 200-300mg of test per week and whatever compound I'm running at higher than that. Really I'm just running the test to have it in my system because your natural T goes out the window with whatever compound you run. So, aside from an all out bulking cycle (which I don't think I'll run anymore of in my lifetime) you don't need much test. Test is the best injectable bulker you can use, bar none. It's the king of putting on weight. But if you are not looking to gain 40lbs in 15 weeks, then just run a cruise or maintenance dose and let the other compounds do the work. This is one reason why the low Test/High Primo cycles work so well. The primo gets to do it's job and you actually get to see the results because the test is not in the way.

I like the cycle that Cobra set up for you. It really doesn't have to be as complicated as it seems, as the simple cycle he laid out will work just fine. Don't go crazy on the tren dose, as most people don't need much of it to see nice gains. I'm one of the "supersensitive" type that sees gains at just 300mg per week of tren. However, I also experience more sides than most people including terrible night sweats, lethargy, and vivid dreams. 

If you have never run tren before it's good to get that first experience under your belt using tren A. You'll be able to see pretty quickly whether it's for you or not. Always share your tren experiences with other and be careful to be as objective as possible. Although you may feel awesome at sometimes and horrible at others, make sure you describe the overall experience with all aspects in mind. I see people post that they "love tren and had no side effects"... really? I find that hard to believe. Others say they experience no gains and only side effects. I also find that hard to believe. SO I would urge you all to be very objective and even keep a "journal" of sorts to document your experience. Because to be honest, it's hard to remember what happened each day of your cycle.


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