# Diet help for cutting cycle



## Beefcake (Jan 27, 2015)

Hello everyone.  I just started my cutting cycle of test e/mast e both 600 and var.  Var is for 3 cycles 1ml twice a day.  I'm currently at 242, 5'9 bf%--not sure but I would like to lose 20lbs in my stomach area.  40 yrs old.  I have been lifting for over 10 years, was an active athlete in HS and College.  I'm always busy and on the go.  I work out 5 days a week, lifting and 20 minutes cardio.  Cardio is walking fast then slow 1 minute alternating.  My diet has been the following:

Breakfast--3 egg whites, 1 whole, 2 slice cheese.  

10am meal--1 cup oatmeal, 1 protein shake whey

lunch--2cups tuna salad/ham salad/chicken salad, whole grain wrap, 2 slice cheese.

workout

post protein shake

dinner choices--homemade beef or chicken tacos, skinless chicken, frozen chicken patty, steak and brown beans, occasional baked potato, 2 slice cheese.

I've been using myfitnesspal to track all of my daily meals.  It says with this rate in 5 weeks I will weigh 226lbs.???  This includes my cardio but does not calculate lifting for 40 minutes, high intensity, no breaks.

Supps include--3 creatine pills pre workout, concentrated protein pills--4 a day after lunch, vitamin C pill, multi vit, NO2 post workout.

What improvements could I make to my diet plan to cut 20 lbs???

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.



Totals

1,959 Calories

124 Carbs

82 Fat

143 Protein

5,961 Sodium

57 Sugar

Your Daily Goal 

2,372 Calories

 297 Carbs

 79 Fat

 119 Protein

 2,300 Sodium

 89 Sugar

Remaining

 413 Calories

173 Carbs

-3 Fat

-24 Protein

-3,661 Sodium

32 Sugar


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 27, 2015)

Obviously I think your cardio is good for burning fat without burning muscle. This is the same cardio that my procard trainer has me do and also the same cardio that 3J had me do when I was using him. If you had time you could bump it to 30 minutes.

Do you measure your portions out? How much protien do you put in a shake? 

I think you should cut out all the cheese. Also stay away from wraps and taco shells...just eat the meat plain with veggies...like sauteed green beans or steamed whatever. Condiments are your friends lol. 

Stop eating the tuna salads as well...you dont need the fat from the mayo and cream those are made with. Keep it as clean and simple as possible.

Are you taking in any carbs pre workout or immediately post work out?


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## Beefcake (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks Cobra.  I put 1 scoop in the protein shakes, sometimes two.  As for the tuna and wraps, what could I use, canned or fresh tuna?  Then mix it with what?  I'm a cheeseaholic, so I have to find other condiments to mix with it.  I'm also not big on veggies, but will occasionally have a salad.  I'm a very picky eater which is why I have trouble with dieting.  However I do want to stick to one for this cycle, and hopefully afterwards.  The ketchup with eggs was a good idea.  I'm also not taking any other carbs (besides fruit) pre or post workout besides what's listed.  I guess whole wheat or grain bread may be a good source??


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 27, 2015)

Im a pizza, deep fried, twinkie and all the worst food you can think of lover..but i dont eat it except on my one cheat meal...thats usually pizza and a massive dessert lol mind over matter..remeber...its not like its forever and you have plenty of life left to eat all the shit you want

Keep your fruit down to like an apple a day and in the am. Fruit is sugar so you dont want to much of it in a cut. You can also use salsa on eggs..hot sauces as well. For your meat what I do is just make taco meat from ground turkey/chicken/beef then weigh it up for as much as i need to hit my macros...right now that is 5 ounces lol. The taco meat you can mix with shredded lettuce and salsa, peppers, onions to make a taco salad or its just good to eat plain. Stay away from breads. Ezeikel bread is best and limit that to 2 slices a day. Bbq sauce is good to put on stuff as well as asian sauces...i use asian sauces on my veggies. 

The hardest part is putting all this together to form hit your macros..portion size is important. You gotta get creative with food flavoring to eat clean. If you need a snack then go with pickles or celery..low low cal things to keep the hunger pangs down.

If your really eating 2000 cals a day yoour def going to drop the lbs...thats eating like a bird.


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## JAXNY (Jan 27, 2015)

Cobra pretty much said what I was going to. Cut that cheese out 100 percent. Same with the tuna and chicken salads. Eat your tuna plain. Bump your cardio to 30-40 min.  I prefer the stationary bike at 90-100 rpms over walking fast. I think your protien may be too low. But I can't tell from your post exactly how much your intake is.


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## Beefcake (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks guys for the input.  I did cardio for 30 minutes today then my weights.  I'll have to try the bike too.  Based on the food web site my protein is a little low.  I want to lose fat and gain muscle--just like everyone else.  On this cycle I hope to cut and lose weight but still increase muscle mass.  I'll increase the egg whites for protein and try to add some clean carbs for pre-workout or post.  What if I up the oatmeal or low fat yogurt?  Are triscuits and wheat things okay or not?


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 27, 2015)

No crackers or chips bro lol look at your nutrition labels. Sugar = bad. oatmeal is good for carbs...so is rice. You want your carbs to be 40%/protien 40%/fat 20%. Right now if your eating 2k cals a day your approx. 1200 cals less then maintenance. You should only be about 500 Less for awhile. 

Try to keep your protien to about 40g i take when you do get your protien in. The largest protien shake I drink has 30g protien in it max. You want to get your protien from food not a shake if possible because food will fill you up.

Light and fit dannon greek yogurt is good...one cup a day is plenty. Just have to figure out what you can stand to eat everyday and figure out how much of each meal to eat. Each meal does not need to be equal to the other. Shoot for about 6 meals a day with your last meal being right before bed. For example mine is 30g casien protien shake with 15 almonds.


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## Beefcake (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for the input cobra.  I really haven't been too hungry lately, but I have to get my protein and carbs in.  6 meals a day will keep me pretty satisfied.


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## JAXNY (Jan 27, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> Thanks guys for the input.  I did cardio for 30 minutes today then my weights.  I'll have to try the bike too.  Based on the food web site my protein is a little low.  I want to lose fat and gain muscle--just like everyone else.  On this cycle I hope to cut and lose weight but still increase muscle mass.  I'll increase the egg whites for protein and try to add some clean carbs for pre-workout or post.  What if I up the oatmeal or low fat yogurt?  Are triscuits and wheat things okay or not?



I would do your weight training first,  then your cardio. You'll have more stregnth and energy to lift and build. You don't need so much to do cardio. Save cardio for last.  Increase your protien or you're on your way to stripping down musle mass as most guys do when they diet down. Eat food for protien but don't hesitate to drink a few protien shakes through out the day inbetween meals to keep your protien intake high. 
I'll drink a protien shake imediately after my work out then eat a meal about an hour later. You'll utilize that shake before your body can break down and digest a solid meal an hour or so later.


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## Beefcake (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks Jax.  I usually do cardio first to break a sweat and get warmed up but I'll try doing it afterwards instead.  I workout at work during my shift and if someone calls me then I often have to leave asap and then come back to it later.  The gym is 40 feet from my office so I've been sneaking over there to workout for an hour.  Can't beat getting paid to workout!!!  I'll increase my protein intake and drink shakes inbetween meals.  I'm also buying more high protein sources like steak, chicken, etc.  

Thanks everyone for the input.  It's greatly appreciated and I hope to hit my goal of losing at least 20 lbs during my cycle.

Beefcake


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## Paolos (Jan 28, 2015)

Beef the bros gave you some good information to get you started. All of the nutritional stuff is kinda custom and everybody will react a little different.
You should be documenting what changes you make and give it time to work. SOOO many people make tweaks to their diet and don't give it time
to work. For me it takes 2-3 weeks to really see how my body is responding.

Processed foods will be your downfall if your not careful. Like the bros said any protein the word "SALAD" on the end is big trouble (fat, sodium & sugar).
If you must have fat eat nuts (raw almonds or walnuts) or a minimal amount of good oils (non hydrogenated only). If you can afford quality meats
(chicken, fish and beef) you are better off. I try to avoid canned meats unless it's a 911.

Just my observation I don't think your eating enough but I'm not qualified to say for sure. Huge swings in my macros tend to shut me down. Like cobra said
ease your macros up or down to meet your goals. One time I cut my macros by 1000 calories/ day doing a test cut and actually shut down my metabolism
BC my body thought I was starting. 

Sorry to ramble good luck bud!


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## Beefcake (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the advice Paolos.  I'm just going off of what the web site has as far as what my goal is and trying to meet my daily intake.  If I'm over then the weight goal readjusts.  So yesterday it said in 5 weeks I will be at 226.  Today it said 229, so I had to adjust some of my intake a little.  I know it will vary from day to day depending on what I consume but it's a good guideline for me.  Plus I have the time at work to do it.  Also the food counter varies on similar homemade foods and doesn't have them all listed.  Ie--chicken sausage for dinner.  Thanks for the input and being on week 3 of my cycle and on var I hope to see some good results.


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## jennerrator (Jan 28, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Obviously I think your cardio is good for burning fat without burning muscle. This is the same cardio that my procard trainer has me do and also the same cardio that 3J had me do when I was using him. If you had time you could bump it to 30 minutes.
> 
> Do you measure your portions out? How much protien do you put in a shake?
> 
> ...



and yes...bump up the cardio if he is going at a truly slow pace as 20 min isn't going to cut it...or do 20 min of HIIT


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## Beefcake (Jan 28, 2015)

I thought HIIT wasn't recommended for weight loss because it will burn muscle?  That's why Cobra suggesting doing 20, now 30 minutes fast walk, slow, fast walk, 1 minute fast 1 minute slow, etc.


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## jennerrator (Jan 28, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> I thought HIIT wasn't recommended for weight loss because it will burn muscle?  That's why Cobra suggesting doing 20, now 30 minutes fast walk, slow, fast walk, 1 minute fast 1 minute slow, etc.



No.....................

45 min of slow/low heart rate for fat burning

20 min of HIIT for fat burning


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 28, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> I thought HIIT wasn't recommended for weight loss because it will burn muscle?  That's why Cobra suggesting doing 20, now 30 minutes fast walk, slow, fast walk, 1 minute fast 1 minute slow, etc.



You don't need any cardio to lose fat bc diet alone is enough. It's better to think of Cardio in terms of burning calories not fat. Yes there is a fat burning zone so to speak but it's misleading in the way it's applied. Any type of cardio will effect muscle building and retention to some degree but HIIT will effect it to a lesser degree than other types. Bottom line is cardio just increases your caloric expenditure which MAY help create a caloric deficit.


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## jennerrator (Jan 28, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> *You don't need any cardio to lose fat bc diet alone is enough*. It's better to think of Cardio in terms of burning calories not fat. Yes there is a fat burning zone so to speak but it's misleading in the way it's applied. Any type of cardio will effect muscle building and retention to some degree but HIIT will effect it to a lesser degree than other types. Bottom line is cardio just increases your caloric expenditure which MAY help create a caloric deficit.



This can be true when/if....

1. You are not in a hurry to lose fat
2. You don't have a ton to lose
3. You are pretty damn strict and can stick with your diet


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 28, 2015)

Jenner said:


> This can be true when/if....
> 
> 3. You are pretty damn strict and can stick with your diet



That's the biggest point.

I've had people diet down to contest shape within 8-16 weeks with zero cardio activity - its simple more efficient to increase fat loss through diet than it is through cardio. Plus, IMO, the negatives of cardio during dieting far outweigh the positives. 

As for the HIIT vs low intensity debate, it completely depends on how far along the dieting process you are.
If your 15%bf and only just starting a cut, then HIIT 2-3x week is a nice addition. 
If your 10%bf and been dieting for 8 weeks straight, then HIIT is going to cause more problems (increased hunger, increased fatigue, decreased recovery, tendency to binge, etc) than it solves. Coincidently, this is also why competitors stick to low intensity cardio during contest prep.


I also have to go against most of the advice given to the OP regarding his diet.
He has already admitted to being a picky eater and not having a great record when it comes to losing fat, so telling him to get rid of everything (no cheese, no fruit, etc) is a setup for failure. 
OP, make sure your protein intake is high and be flexible with your food choices. Try to incorporate the food sources you enjoy into your macros & remember that we all have setbacks along the way - a slice of cheese or an apple doesn't mean your diet is ruined


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## jennerrator (Jan 28, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> As for the HIIT vs low intensity debate, it completely depends on how far along the dieting process you are.
> If your 15%bf and only just starting a cut, then HIIT 2-3x week is a nice addition.
> If your 10%bf and been dieting for 8 weeks straight, then HIIT is going to cause more problems (increased hunger, increased fatigue, decreased recovery, tendency to binge, etc) than it solves. Coincidently, this is also why competitors stick to low intensity cardio during contest prep.



The above comments are not for people who are competing it's for the norm...my experience only of course


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## JAXNY (Jan 28, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> That's the biggest point.
> 
> I've had people diet down to contest shape within 8-16 weeks with zero cardio activity - its simple more efficient to increase fat loss through diet than it is through cardio. Plus, IMO, the negatives of cardio during dieting far outweigh the positives.
> 
> ...



Hes not some fat twinkie eater that can't stick to a diet because he has no will power,  If you're going to do this beefcake do it the right way,  set your mind to it,  find the will power and discipline you need to acomplish your goal. Cut that cheese out 100 percent along with all of the other crap,  a little is a little to much. 
You'll get your results a lot quicker, that'll be motivating enough to keep you on the program,  instead of dragging it out slowly with a little piece of cheese here a little icecream there ect ect ect. All of those little pieces adds up to a lot of set back.


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 28, 2015)

JAXNY said:


> Hes not some fat twinkie eater that can't stick to a diet because he has no will power,  If you're going to do this beefcake do it the right way,  set your mind to it,  find the will power and discipline you need to acomplish your goal. Cut that cheese out 100 percent along with all of the other crap,  a little is a little to much.
> You'll get your results a lot quicker, that'll be motivating enough to keep you on the program,  instead of dragging it out slowly with a little piece of cheese here a little icecream there ect ect ect. All of those little pieces adds up to a lot of set back.



You noticed that I advised him to fit it into his macros and calories right?
That means the size of the caloric deficit will be the same, which also means there will be no "set backs" since fat loss results will be the same. 
It sounds like your one of those guys who thinks that the food source influences fat loss results even when macros & calories are the same - in which case your very wrong but I cant be bothered to get into yet another argument over this, go read Doc's IIFYM sticky 

Beefcake said he's a picky eater and has had problems in the past - limiting his food sources even further is only going to cause more problems. Flexible dieting on the other hand will give him a boost psychologically because there is no such thing as a banned food choice (therefore avoiding the negative mindset this creates). 
In other words, I'm giving him advise based on the info he gave - rather than regurgitating a bunch of nonsense that you may use when your dieting.


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## JAXNY (Jan 28, 2015)

Im one of those guys?  Nonsense?
I know this, I'm one of those guys who has the results that shows I know what I'm talking about,  year after year after year. 
Put the cheese with his macros… cheese is cheese when you're dieting and the only place you should put it is in the trash. 
A little junk here a little junk there equals weakness.


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## Beefcake (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the advice guys, it's all good advice.  what works for some, may not work for others.  I'm in week 3 of my test e/ mast e 600, var cycle and hoping to lose 20lbs. at least.  So if I stick to a strict diet, workout like I usually do, and get my carbs and protein in then I should be good.  I have to admit, on the weekends it's tough to turn down pizza, but a cheat meal once a week won't kill me right?  I've always had a little bit of a belly, a spare tire, or love handle but nothing big.  I don't have a belly hanging over and shirts bursting.  It's just time that I make a committment to lose some weight during this cycle.  I know I can do it, and with everyone's help and self discipline I should be able to do it.  I'm always busy at home so it's easier to eat less than normal then to eat more to bulk.  Plus this is my first cutting cycle so I'm rather new to it.  I workout during my workday so HIIT isn't really possible.  I'd be drenched with sweat.  So 30 minutes cardio, walking fast is a good start.  All advice is good advice.  Thank you everyone.  I'm currently at 142 and looking to see 122.  If I hit that then I'll be happy if I pass it then even better.


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## JAXNY (Jan 28, 2015)

Btw beefcake, I always incorporated one cheat day a week, must be the same day every week, 7 days apart. On this day you can have more than a cheat meal, eat what ever you wish for the day just don't go overboard. This will help keep you on the program when you feel like cheating during the week knowing that you only have another couple of few days before your cheat day, you'll be able to hold out better. Plus it helps keep you from plateauing. This is all you need. One day not little bits of junk all day every day.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> You noticed that I advised him to fit it into his macros and calories right?
> That means the size of the caloric deficit will be the same, which also means there will be no "set backs" since fat loss results will be the same.
> It sounds like your one of those guys who thinks that the food source influences fat loss results even when macros & calories are the same - in which case your very wrong but I cant be bothered to get into yet another argument over this, go read Doc's IIFYM sticky
> 
> ...



Wtf kind of advice is this? Seriously? you dont get to eat cheese because you fit it into your macros...if your making room for cheese then your taking out good carbs and protien. He will get his 20% fat from his meat and other things he is eating. Im sorry but this is shit advice. 

Also beefcake by doing the slow cardio I suggested you will only burn fat, not muscle or carbs. The goal while dieting is to always try and retain as much muscle as possible unless your a dam marathon runner. It works and if anyone says it doesnt then they dont have any dam clue. Im doing that same cardio now and while it is a slow process it most definitely works. Slow is the name of the game anyway.

I also am on jaxnys team although I limit my cheat to one meal...its whatever I want how ever much I want and that ine meal  creates a zone for me....i rarely have cravings. I eat so shitty on that one meal that I cant wait to get back to my diet. A cheat meal does much more than just satisfy your cravings though...it also shocks your metabolism. After eating clean for a while your bodies metabolism slows and certain hormones are released less so a cheat meal, or day, is guilt free brother. Just think...while your smashing 2 pizzas a nd feeling great everyone around you is smashing pizza but feeling guilty...ENJOY THAT SHIT CAUSE YOU EARNED IT!!!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Mr. Ripped Zilla is VERY knowledgeable in regards to nutrition. I wouldn't be so quick to disregard him or his advice bc it goes against what you guys believe in. You should get to know him before you pass judgement. I'll say this again, he is one of the smartest ppl I've ever talked to and I have learned a great deal of information from him. 

Bottom line is the name of the food you eat has no impact on your body composition. As much as BB'ers and others preach that it does....it DOES NOT. The anecdotal and scientific evidence is clear on this. If you'd like to make an argument for eating clean or whatever let's hear it if you have objective information to back up the claims.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> Mr. Ripped Zilla is VERY knowledgeable in regards to nutrition. I wouldn't be so quick to disregard him or his advice bc it goes against what you guys believe in. You should get to know him before you pass judgement. I'll say this again, he is one of the smartest ppl I've ever talked to and I have learned a great deal of information from him.
> 
> Bottom line is the name of the food you eat has no impact on your body composition. As much as BB'ers and others preach that it does....it DOES NOT. The anecdotal and scientific evidence is clear on this. If you'd like to make an argument for eating clean or whatever let's hear it if you have objective information to back up the claims.



Im not judging him. Your not going to get me to agree with swapping cheese for other macros. I get that he is trying to ease beefcake into the diet but unless he is going to be there to tell beefcake when its time to cut out the cheese he shouldnt lead him to believe cheese is ok while trying to eat clean. We are tryin to show beefcake what a cut diet is really like so he has an idea of what he needs to work towards. If he wants to cut then he will do what is right. Half assing it with a mediocre diet will take alot longer to see results and he will lose faith in his purpose. 

Im not saying all his advice was bad but i dont agree with telling the guy cheese is ok when there are maby other things healthier to use to flavor your food, save the cheese for your reward..for your cheat meal.


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## Seeker (Jan 29, 2015)

Oh doc not the iifym argument again. Lol.  we know scientifically that it indeed works, remember the discussing with Don Draco, you and myself? We all agreed that iifym is does in fact work. Don and myself though were arguing the point of falling into bad habits with bad food choices and not  properly following what iifym is really meant to be.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

I dont have any scientific studies to post up to prove im right amd I am by no means a certified nutritionist...I just know what works and what has worked for years. If its worth doing then give it your best. So doc no disrespect but you can post all the scientific studies you want...it wont change my mind. Ive read so much shit on dieting that for every one way to do it there is another way that says that way is bullshit (did that come out right? Lol) also out of the ifbb pros Ive talked to on this subject cheese has bever been part of the convo. I guess I just tend to listen to the guys who ha e walked the walk...


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## Seeker (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra, I'm a bit surprised you have not heard of IIFYM yet.


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## TriniJuice (Jan 29, 2015)

Fuk all these guys beef;
I eat chicken n waffles drizzled in syrup er'day and still manage to look like wolf blitzer....


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Cobra, I'm a bit surprised you have not heard of IIFYM yet.



Ive heard of it bro i just dont believe in it...but I am an all or nothing guy. I dont like sloppy and I also take muscle retention serious. I am not going to cut if I am cutting fat and muscle...only fat. The way that IIFYM works does not account for this...it simply is helping you cut fat without considering muscle retention.  They dont make a calculator for that


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Ive heard of it bro i just dont believe in it...but I am an all or nothing guy. I dont like sloppy and I also take muscle retention serious. I am not going to cut if I am cutting fat and muscle...only fat. The way that IIFYM works does not account for this...it simply is helping you cut fat without considering muscle retention.  They dont make a calculator for that


Cobra IIFYM works. It's how I gain and lose weight. Only thing that's ever worked for me. If i had to eat shiken breast egg whites and oats I would kill myself. But it works for many others.

If you eat the typical 40 40 20 diet then you use those macros. And you can eat whatever you want to fill those macros up.  Even cheese.

In time someone using this approach of "flexible dieting" learns that maybe eating a bunch of cheese isn't best because it makes it difficult to keep within your target macros. Maybe the fat content is too high or protein is inadequate. Whatever to reason you just adjust.

I can get away with eating whatever the hell I want on a cut so long as my calories do not exceed maintenance levels.  I choose not to eat like shit though as performance can suffer. I follow the rule of 90%. 90 percent of what I eat is the kind of stuff people consider "clean" in general. 10% is poptarts.  

Because the only cause of weight loss is a caloric deficit. 

This is tough to swallow for old school guys like you and seek and thousands of others. It inevitably ends in fights.

And for no reason. Nobody is saying what you do is wrong. It's just not the only way to skin the cat.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> Cobra IIFYM works. It's how I gain and lose weight. Only thing that's ever worked for me. If i had to eat shiken breast egg whites and oats I would kill myself. But it works for many others.
> 
> If you eat the typical 40 40 20 diet then you use those macros. And you can eat whatever you want to fill those macros up.  Even cheese.
> 
> ...



I completely agree brother. Im not saying it doesnt work Im just saying I dont believe in it. If I can "eat clean" while loving what I am eating then I can eat better quality and more quantity then if i ate some bullshit treat lol. If i substitute in a treat then I have to substitute out better food. Of course I do have a hunger problem and could eat this world bare so better quality gives me more quantity. I also believe that sugar creates sugar cravings as I know that happens to me so splurge on some junk food and you will want to splurge on some more which requires even more will power to say no and then your thinking one pop tart was fine so two wont kill me and so on...now your diet is taking longer to see results. I suppose it comes down to mental strength...you either got it, develop it, or dont. It is my firm belief in bodybiulding that ones physique is not only a testament to their strength but also a testament to their mental capabilities. 

And ya..i am old school lol


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## Seeker (Jan 29, 2015)

Thats the whole basis of the ongoing argument from both sides. There are clean eaters that only chicken breast and broccoli just as there are IIFYM eaters that only eat junk food all day. The theory behind IIFYM does come from a good place, its purpose is for people like POB to make a diet less strict so you don't feel like hanging yourself lol while still reaching your goals by sticking to your macro count. but like other diets, there are those who  are just taking it to the extremes or misunderstanding. 
Like POB said, in reality to hit your macros you're gonna have to stick to a pretty healthy diet to be able to still eat a fair amount of food throughout the day because those pop tarts add up really quick on the carb side.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> I completely agree brother. Im not saying it doesnt work Im just saying I dont believe in it. If I can "eat clean" while loving what I am eating then I can eat better quality and more quantity then if i ate some bullshit treat lol. If i substitute in a treat then I have to substitute out better food. Of course I do have a hunger problem and could eat this world bare so better quality gives me more quantity. I also believe that sugar creates sugar cravings as I know that happens to me so splurge on some junk food and you will want to splurge on some more which requires even more will power to say no and then your thinking one pop tart was fine so two wont kill me and so on...now your diet is taking longer to see results. I suppose it comes down to mental strength...you either got it, develop it, or dont. It is my firm belief in bodybiulding that ones physique is not only a testament to their strength but also a testament to their mental capabilities.
> 
> And ya..i am old school lol


I think you and I are on the same page.  I am always hungry so eating less packaged foods tends to let me eat more food.

You aren't far off from rippedzilla  either if you can believe that.  I doubt he will preach to an athlete to eat sugary crap all day long either.  But eating a piece of cheese on a sammich or hell  even some homemade pizza will not diminish results.  I think? He can speak for himself I don't mean to put dick... I mean words in his mouth.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Im not judging him. Your not going to get me to agree with swapping cheese for other macros. I get that he is trying to ease beefcake into the diet but unless he is going to be there to tell beefcake when its time to cut out the cheese he shouldnt lead him to believe cheese is ok while trying to eat clean. We are tryin to show beefcake what a cut diet is really like so he has an idea of what he needs to work towards. If he wants to cut then he will do what is right. Half assing it with a mediocre diet will take alot longer to see results and he will lose faith in his purpose.
> 
> Im not saying all his advice was bad but i dont agree with telling the guy cheese is ok when there are maby other things healthier to use to flavor your food, save the cheese for your reward..for your cheat meal.



That's what he was trying to do. I'm like POB, if you told me to cut out foods I liked for something else, I'd not last long and hate you for telling me that lol. Notice how he didn't advise Beefy to begin eating margarine, twinkies, and pop tarts as the entire diet. What was said was simply find the foods you like the most and eat them in ratios that fulfill your macro needs. I had brownies today bc I was craving them. I made sure to eat less rice and use less oil in my other meals today. Tomorrow I may want some fruit instead, the day after maybe I crave munching in some veggies, the possibilities are endless. The point is I can eat anything I like without fear of getting fat by manipulating the rest of my diet to incorporate the foods I do want. That's not to say I had 2000cals of brownies today but out of all the food I ate can anyone seriously tell me 2 pieces of brownies is going to make me fat? 



Seeker said:


> Oh doc not the iifym argument again. Lol.  we know scientifically that it indeed works, remember the discussing with Don Draco, you and myself? We all agreed that iifym is does in fact work. Don and myself though were arguing the point of falling into bad habits with bad food choices and not  properly following what iifym is really meant to be.



No Seek I don't want to drudge that up lol. Bad habits in terms of food fall on both ends of the spectrum Seek. You have people who eat nothing but twinkies and soda but you also have people who continue to force themselves to eat shit they hate bc of some magical ability of clean foods to not lead to fat gain. Neither side is above the extremism. A middle ground is a much easier place to be plus it allows flexibility to adapt. I've never told anyone to eat a diet completely devoid of whole foods and neither is Ripped. 

PS: I do remember the chat we had in the chat of between the three of us. I left the convo with respect for the both of you. Nothing has changed since then


----------



## jennerrator (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> It is my firm belief in bodybuilding that ones physique is not only a testament to their strength *but also a testament to their mental capabilities.
> *
> And ya..i am old school lol



x2 and the red is when most people break....


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Im not judging him. Your not going to get me to agree with swapping cheese for other macros. I get that he is trying to ease beefcake into the diet but unless he is going to be there to tell beefcake when its time to cut out the cheese he shouldnt lead him to believe cheese is ok while trying to eat clean.
> If he wants to cut then he will do what is right.
> Half assing it with a mediocre diet will take alot longer to see results and he will lose faith in his purpose.



You were judging me dude, your first response to my post was "wtf is this??" It only became a sensible debate when both POB and Doc defended me (thank you btw). 
My posts had nothing to do with your personal dieting methods, it was all about showing beefcake alternatives if he, like millions of others (no I'm not exaggerating), has failed with the "clean" dieting approach in the past. 
"If he wants to cut he'll do what's right" - my turn to respond with "wtf is this??" Dieting is not some philosophical process where you must eat clean, its almost as if your offended by people who can successfully lose fat (at the SAME rate) by selecting more enjoyable food choices. 



Cobra Strike said:


> I dont have any scientific studies to post up to prove im right amd I am by no means a certified nutritionist...I just know what works and what has worked for years. If its worth doing then give it your best. So doc no disrespect but you can post all the scientific studies you want...it wont change my mind. Ive read so much shit on dieting that for every one way to do it there is another way that says that way is bullshit (did that come out right? Lol) also out of the ifbb pros Ive talked to on this subject cheese has bever been part of the convo. I guess I just tend to listen to the guys who ha e walked the walk...



I have read all the relevant scientific studies up to this point and know for a fact that flexible dieting works plus I have a masters in nutrition - but since this wont get anywhere with you, I'll use the "walk the walk" approach.
I used to compete as a natural bodybuilder and believed the same stuff that you do - I must eat clean (chicken, broccoli, brown rice, etc). 
Then when I became a coach I saw how very wrong I was. I've had natural athletes get in contest shape using IIFYM principles all the way apart from the final week or two & its also the same approach I now use for my annual summer cut. 
It did NOT take them any longer to get into contest shape compared to those following clean diets, despite similar starting points. 
In fact, I've had clients use fruit (something you refer to as junk that should be cut out - really?) exclusively as their carb source during prep and I would argue that they looked BETTER than those using the traditional clean starchy carbs choices. 

Your personal idea of junk food is also very confusing to me. I can understand twinkies and donuts but cheese & fruit?
Dairy in general is arguably the BEST source of protein and there are a lot of correlations between individuals who consume a lot of dairy (cheese included) and success following diets.
Fruit is absolutely essential to being healthy and contains all 3 types of carbs - glucose, sucrose & fructose. So no, its not just sugar. This old myth of guys not being allowed to eat fruit while dieting is complete nonsense and, as I already said, I've had clients get into prep shape with fruit as their main source of carbs. They looked awesome. 

And I wont comment on what sort of diet the IFBB pros use because they are using compounds (insulin for example) where carb choices most certainly do become important. That is not the case here. 



PillarofBalance said:


> I think you and I are on the same page.  I am always hungry so eating less packaged foods tends to let me eat more food.
> 
> You aren't far off from rippedzilla  either if you can believe that.  I doubt he will preach to an athlete to eat sugary crap all day long either.  But eating a piece of cheese on a sammich or hell  even some homemade pizza will not diminish results.  I think? He can speak for himself I don't mean to put dick... I mean words in his mouth.



Lol no - eating for performance and eating for bodyrecomposition involved different approaches, though its good that you brought this up because some people still don't really understand the distinction.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 29, 2015)

The fruit thing can make a huge difference too zilla.  Guys on a calorie deficit sometimes run out of gas while training.

So for those who don't know, eating fruit replenishes your liver glycogen. As you expend the glycogen stored in your muscles in the gym your body releases the liver glycogen to be used as additional energy to keep you going all out in the gym.

I don't like a lot of fruits but I pick the ones I like and make sure they are in my first couple meals during the day.

Plus ya know... vitamins and all...


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## Paolos (Jan 29, 2015)

I think if you stick to the IIFYM guidelines it can work in some cases. With that said the people I have seen (known personally) use it have been unsuccessful
because... A) They just could not stick to anything thing that required complete detail or discipline or B) They were just looking for more flexibility
in their diet and took advantage of it.

I'm older and yes old school so I like a traditional diet plan that utilizes true clean food choices. Cheat meals, cheat windows, cheat days or
whatever applies to me in my plan will satisfy all my desires for a greasy burger or pizza. At that point I want nothing more to do with it
until the next time I'm eligible. The cheat meal is intended to be a reward for hard work! Yeah I did say old school right


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## jennerrator (Jan 29, 2015)

Paolos said:


> I think if you stick to the IIFYM guidelines it can work in some cases. With that said the people I have seen (known personally) use it have been unsuccessful
> because... A) They just could not stick to anything thing that required complete detail or discipline or B) They were just looking for more flexibility
> in their diet and took advantage of it.
> 
> ...



Excellent post!


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> You were judging me dude, your first response to my post was "wtf is this??" It only became a sensible debate when both POB and Doc defended me (thank you btw).
> My posts had nothing to do with your personal dieting methods, it was all about showing beefcake alternatives if he, like millions of others (no I'm not exaggerating), has failed with the "clean" dieting approach in the past.
> "If he wants to cut he'll do what's right" - my turn to respond with "wtf is this??" Dieting is not some philosophical process where you must eat clean, its almost as if your offended by people who can successfully lose fat (at the SAME rate) by selecting more enjoyable food choices.
> 
> ...



1. No i was not judging you, i said your cheese advice was shitty...i did not say you are shitty.

2. You can eat "clean" and still eat foods that are very delicious...especially now a days with all the options out there.

3. I am not saying fruit is junk food. I am saying there are proper amounts and certain fruits that should be eaten instead of others...such as oranges which are high in sugar. I do not like to spike blood sugar at the wrong times.

4. You talk like fructose is a good sugar. It is not. It does not get converted. It gets stored as fat. 

5. I am not saying iifym does not work. For the 4th time I am saying I dont believe in it and in my experience it does not produce the results I want in my time frames. I also am pretty serious about dieting though so I admit I am most likely passed the average dieter level.  

6. With my experience in the medical field studies only mean so much to me. Paper does not convert well to real life and conform to everyone. Its called practice for a reason. Every decade the uses of certain meds are found to actually work so we use them...then they find that they dont work...then boom they work again and so on. Its not a bad guideline but its not gospel.

7. I mean no disrespect to you but I dont have to agree with using iifym...if you need to have a twinkie or a piece of cheese it most likely wont make you fat but its also not beneficial. 

So with all this being said I am still going to recommend eating "clean" while using other options for seasoning and a cheat meal for a good diet. I do appreciate the discussion though and please accept my sincere apologies for offending you.


Ps...last thing...its almost impossible to offend me


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

This is the problem with dieting for newer or less educated guys. There are a million ways to do it and going at it alone trying to decipher all the info out there is very confusing and can cause a guy to go bi polar.


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## Beefcake (Jan 29, 2015)

Well thanks for all of the advice guys.  Good discussions here.  At the present time I am going to try to eat clean, using seasoning and condiments for flavoring.  I want to keep my proteins up or even a little higher than normal to retain muscls and to keep on building it.  I am going to try to stay away from food high in fats and preservatives.  Last night I was supposed to have chicken sausage in a bowel for dinner but with the baby teething and my 5yr old son running around, before I knew it, it was late.  So I tossed in some fish sticks to eat.  Not the best choice I know, but I was starving and had to eat something.  I know a better choice would have been skinless chicken, but time was a factor.  Now when I plugged it in myfitnesspal it said that all of my numbers were under, esp. fat for the day, and protein was -3.  It calculated that if I maintain this diet I will weigh 223 in 5 weeks.  Now I'm not sure if this is the best system for keeping track out there, as I already found some differences among food brands, and types already, but it's a guideline for me.  As for daily macro's WTF??  I will have to do some research on that one.  

Thanks everyone for their input and advice.  I still think dieting/cutting/eating cleaner will be easier for me than trying to bulk with a 5k+ intake a day.  We'll see, I'll keep everyone posted as to my progress.  Any and all input is greatly appreciated.  (except for the smart ass comments) lol


----------



## MrRippedZilla (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> 4. You talk like fructose is a good sugar. It is not. It does not get converted. It gets stored as fat.
> 
> So with all this being said I am still going to recommend eating "clean" while using other options for seasoning and a cheat meal for a good diet. I do appreciate the discussion though and please accept my sincere apologies for offending you.
> 
> Ps...last thing...its almost impossible to offend me



Apology accepted 

Just as a side note, people focus on how fructose in excess gets turned to fat but they ignore the data showing that, after fructose ingestion, fat oxidation is higher than after other sugars because of the lack of insulin increase. 
Yes, fructose in excess converts to fat in the liver but the body also burns more fat after fructose conversion - our bodies are good at working this stuff out.
Something to be aware of.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Fructose also happens to replenish liver glycogen which if depleted can lead to catabolism especially in times of a hypocaloric state or metabolic stress.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Apology accepted
> 
> Just as a side note, people focus on how fructose in excess gets turned to fat but they ignore the data showing that, after fructose ingestion, fat oxidation is higher than after other sugars because of the lack of insulin increase.
> Yes, fructose in excess converts to fat in the liver but the body also burns more fat after fructose conversion - our bodies are good at working this stuff out.
> Something to be aware of.





Docd187123 said:


> Fructose also happens to replenish liver glycogen which if depleted can lead to catabolism especially in times of a hypocaloric state or metabolic stress.



Lol perfect example for every piece of data found there is other data stating opposite information. Gotta love it!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Lol perfect example for every piece of data found there is other data stating opposite information. Gotta love it!



I'm not sure I follow. What are you saying the contradiction is between the two statements?


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 29, 2015)

There is no contradiction.

I clearly stated that EXCESS fructose goes to fat, the normal amounts replenish liver glycogen as doc stated. 

Fructose >>replenish liver glycogen>>liver glycogen full
Excess fructose >> fat stores >> increased fat oxidation


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 29, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> I'm not sure I follow. What are you saying the contradiction is between the two statements?



I should have worded it differently. I was sitting in a medical lecture on pulmonary embolisms and couldnt give my full attention to the post. Thats my fault.

Everything has a positive and a negative. Fructose I try to avoid because my liver will replenish its glycogen from other sources rather than fructose. Sure it may prefer fructose but it doesnt have to be fructose. That being said if your liver doesnt need replenishing then what happens to the fructose? Its not used by the liver and gets stored as fat. There are better times for fructose intake but in reality in not going to look for a food to get my fructose from like I look to meat for protien. I just avoid fructose every chance I get. You guys get so scientific on things lmao alot of this stuff really isnt crucial to anything. I just know fructose is an overall bad sugar so I try to avoid it..no need to get detailed on the patho of fructose gents  

What do you want to dive into next? Magnesium deficiency and how it effects the heart? Haha just joking


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

Fructose gets unfairly demonized. By most people's definition in POB's clean thread, it fits the bill for a clean food when eaten in the form of fruit at least. Fruit is not processed, whole, and chalk full of micros. I don't see the reason for the fructose hate many people have but then again I have been known to eat upwards of 5pbs of fruit in a day if I want to lol n


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 29, 2015)

PS....next I'd like to dive into the reason(s) for why Seeker stopped sending me nude photos of himself n


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## anewguy (Jan 29, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> Thanks Cobra.  I put 1 scoop in the protein shakes, sometimes two.  As for the tuna and wraps, what could I use, canned or fresh tuna?  Then mix it with what?  I'm a cheeseaholic, so I have to find other condiments to mix with it.  I'm also not big on veggies, but will occasionally have a salad.  I'm a very picky eater which is why I have trouble with dieting.  However I do want to stick to one for this cycle, and hopefully afterwards.  The ketchup with eggs was a good idea.  I'm also not taking any other carbs (besides fruit) pre or post workout besides what's listed.  I guess whole wheat or grain bread may be a good source??



I agree with Cobra on the cheese.  It's tough, but it's worth it.  Also, I use a bit of mustard with my tuna instead of mayo if need be.


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## Beefcake (Jan 29, 2015)

Mustard, wow could use some now with my tuna.


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## Seeker (Jan 29, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> PS....next I'd like to dive into the reason(s) for why Seeker stopped sending me nude photos of himself n



I'm bulking. You don't want my bulky nudes. Lol


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## JAXNY (Jan 30, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> You were judging me dude, your first response to my post was "wtf is this??" It only became a sensible debate when both POB and Doc defended me (thank you btw).
> My posts had nothing to do with your personal dieting methods, it was all about showing beefcake alternatives if he, like millions of others (no I'm not exaggerating), has failed with the "clean" dieting approach in the past.
> "If he wants to cut he'll do what's right" - my turn to respond with "wtf is this??" Dieting is not some philosophical process where you must eat clean, its almost as if your offended by people who can successfully lose fat (at the SAME rate) by selecting more enjoyable food choices.
> 
> ...



Your post had nothing to do with our dieting methods?  Sure it did. In your own words you said our methods were "regurgitated nonsense ". And that you were showing beefcake an alternative way because you already classified him as a failure and that
 he didn't have what it takes to do it our way. And the only way he would succeed  is your way or he was doomed to fail as many others. I can imagine your lifting advice,  "dont push yourself or lift too heavy or youll realize its tuff and uncomfortable and youll give up" Wow… thats inspirational. 
I don't sugar coat shit or hold someones hand when im trying to encourage them,  I help push them beyond their limit to make them better and to get them to the next level. Not show them an easy less effective way because I think they will fail otherwise. 
If someone is strong enough to be in our game at least give that person the benefit of the doubt of having the capability of accomplishing something tuff before deeming them an automatic failure. 
Btw we are speaking of a rapid aggressive dieting program,  not year long mild wight loss one. 
These guys are lifters,  not jenny craig patients.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 30, 2015)

JAXNY said:


> Your post had nothing to do with our dieting methods?  Sure it did. In your own words you said our methods were "regurgitated nonsense ". And that you were showing beefcake an alternative way because you already classified him as a failure and that
> he didn't have what it takes to do it our way. And the only way he would succeed  is your way or he was doomed to fail as many others. I can imagine your lifting advice,  "dont push yourself or lift too heavy or youll realize its tuff and uncomfortable and youll give up" Wow… thats inspirational.
> I don't sugar coat shit or hold someones hand when im trying to encourage them,  I help push them beyond their limit to make them better and to get them to the next level. Not show them an easy less effective way because I think they will fail otherwise.
> If someone is strong enough to be in our game at least give that person the benefit of the doubt of having the capability of accomplishing something tuff before deeming them an automatic failure.
> ...



But it is regurgitated... although so is what we are saying.

Nobody "classified him as a failure." He said he is a picky eater himself. Why would you choose to torture him and set him up for failure when there is another way. 

You called it a less effective way and have nothing to back up that claim.

What's wrong with using an easier way?

all of this really is nonsense.  My biggest example of how stupid it is to act like there is only this one way to do it and all this eating clean nonsense was that pompous jack off cashout. ****ing guy wouldn't eat the cake at his own wedding.

If your body can't handle fruit. Or a piece of cake then your training is probably pretty bad.


----------



## don draco (Jan 30, 2015)

IIFYM works for losing bodyfat.. yes.. but if your goal is to attain the best conditioning possible, it isn't your best bet.  IIFYM is also usually interpreted the wrong way by those who adopt it as their approach to dieting.  Typically because they are misinformed & are looking for a way to maintain their poor dietary choices.  I believe it's why most of the guys who use IIFYM don't have physiques worth looking at lol.  Their choice to use it is often made out of laziness & lack of willpower.. and it shows. The name in itself -- "if it fits your macros" -- implies that you can eat anything if it fits your macronutrient requirements, and obtain the same results that you would eating 100% 'clean' foods.  We can all agree that isn't the case.  If it were, I could get all my fats from chocolate, all carbs from skittles & all protein from whey, and look like a competitive bodybuilder. 

The most overlooked part of food is micronutrient content.. I don't know why, but people seem to focus solely on their calorie / macronutrient intake, when micronutrients also play a huge role in muscle preservation & body composition.  The more nutrient-void junk you introduce into your diet, the higher the chances of you robbing yourself of the muscle that you worked hard to build.  From my own experience, food choices also play a massive role in your ability to lose fat & push your body to its peak conditioning.  For me, the difference is night & day.  When cutting, my goal is always to minimize error in order to maximize my chances of maintaining the muscle I worked to build.  Eating 100% 'clean' has allowed me to do that, so I'll stick with it.  The long-term results I get are more satisfying to me than a moment of pleasure. 

Quality foods = Quality results..


----------



## JAXNY (Jan 30, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> But it is regurgitated... although so is what we are saying.
> 
> Nobody "classified him as a failure." He said he is a picky eater himself. Why would you choose to torture him and set him up for failure when there is another way.
> 
> ...



I don't mind having a respectful debate with anyone on the difference of opinions, training methods techniques or what. But when someone is going to tell me that my true tried and proven ways proven by myself many times over and by others I know, that they are "regurgitator nonsense" I take that offensivly and it tells me that this person has his head up his ass.  
I wasn't disrespeful about his believed scientific "proven" ways. Even though he probably has no idea about the people who conducted them ,how they were conducted and who or what type of people they were conducted on it even the credcredibility of whoever conducted these test. 

  As far as the fact that I have nothing to back up my methods as far as being scientifically documented they are proven and backed up by people like myself, Cobrastrike, Don Draco and many others throughout the years. And repetedly. 
There are people out there who are just not happy unless they are debunking something for an alternative way. 
I nor anyone else here said that iifym doesn't work,  we just believe it doesn't work as effectivly or as quickly than the way we are saying. And that is coming from people who have used both ways. Imo that is all the proof you need. You try them both and see which is more effective,  which I have done and so have others. 
And I disagree PB, he classified him as a failure when he stated that our way would be setting him up for failure just like many others who have tried this approach just because he is a picky eater. That imo is having no confidence in someone before they even have a chance to try. If someone wants something enough they will find the stregnth to overcome obstacles, but certainly not if you are going to tell them that they can't before they even try. I have helped so many people in my lifetime get into phenomenal shape,  fat people with eating  issues as well. They were very successful and it wasn't from me telling them they will fail at a certain approach because they already have a weakness. Its how you beat the weakness by overcoming it and doing away with it,  not continuing to incorporate it. 
Sure if someone tries and just can't do it then sure use an easier way but atleast give a guy a chance to overcome his weakness and do away with it and better himself. 
And its not torture PB,  its a meir several weeks of uncomfort for a huge reward,  no pain no gain. 
Also im not saying that there is only one way to do this,  what I am swing is that if you want to yield the maximum results in the shortest period of time then our method would be the better Choice. And thats been proven by myself many times over,  Cobra strikes and Don Dracos along with many others out there. 
If you don't need quick rapid maximum yielding results then im sure the iifym way could work for you as well. 
I just don't believe it can yield the the same or better results at the same rate as our way. 
But hey,  give them both a try and find out for sure like I have and many others hav .


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 30, 2015)

Both sides can play the extreme case. Is anybody willing to say this is a good diet? It's certainly clean by most people's definition. 






Its funny how RippedZilla has taken his clients to the stage and only cut out IIFYM a week or two before stepping on stage. Seems to me if you can do it that long and deep into contest prep neither method works faster or more effective than the other. It's which one fits the lifestyle of the person in question better.


----------



## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

Just as I thought this argument was over lol

Not to stir the pot but I did text my iffbb pro (super heavy class) about his thoughts on the IIFYM diet and he said...

"That diet is crap and is for pussies and I will never utilize  that with any of my team especially when we are here for one purpose - to present the best packages and take home the trophies!" 

The guy has a team of about 20 right now....men and women. I have to say though, I love this fukin coach!!


----------



## MrRippedZilla (Jan 30, 2015)

JAXNY said:


> Your post had nothing to do with our dieting methods?  Sure it did. In your own words you said our methods were "regurgitated nonsense ". And that you were showing beefcake an alternative way because you already classified him as a failure and that
> he didn't have what it takes to do it our way. And the only way he would succeed  is your way or he was doomed to fail as many others. I can imagine your lifting advice,  "dont push yourself or lift too heavy or youll realize its tuff and uncomfortable and youll give up" Wow… thats inspirational.
> I don't sugar coat shit or hold someones hand when im trying to encourage them,  I help push them beyond their limit to make them better and to get them to the next level. Not show them an easy less effective way because I think they will fail otherwise.
> If someone is strong enough to be in our game at least give that person the benefit of the doubt of having the capability of accomplishing something tuff before deeming them an automatic failure.
> ...




Its amazing how you could completely misinterpret my post - its a bad habit that I hate but I'll try to respond in a respectful manner. 

My "regurgitated nonsense" comment was referring to the comments you made about cutting out fruit/cheese and the fact that you keep claiming that clean dieting will produce faster results when I know, not just from studies but from my own experiences with my body & clients, that it wont. 
It had nothing to do with the clean dieting philosophy per se, only your strict interpretation of it. 

My advice about flexible dieting was based on what the OP stated about struggling with dieting in the past - in other words my advice was based on his individual circumstances, I don't go around telling everyone to try flexible dieting, if the clean approach works for you then fine. 
However, YOUR advice was based completely on what worked for YOU, you didn't take the OPs specific circumstances into consideration whatsoever - I did. 

And LOL at the "mild weight loss comment", if you actually saw the size of the caloric deficits I create for myself and specific clients you would not be saying that.
If someone wants to lose fat rapidly, as in as fast as possible without sacrificing muscle, I would create the largest caloric deficit I can while adjusting the macros in an appropriate manner. I would NOT simply focus on the actual food choices - adjust calories & macros, then everything else falls into place. 




don draco said:


> IIFYM works for losing bodyfat.. yes.. but if your goal is to attain the best conditioning possible, it isn't your best bet.  IIFYM is also usually interpreted the wrong way by those who adopt it as their approach to dieting.  Typically because they are misinformed & are looking for a way to maintain their poor dietary choices.  I believe it's why most of the guys who use IIFYM don't have physiques worth looking at lol.  Their choice to use it is often made out of laziness & lack of willpower.. and it shows. The name in itself -- "if it fits your macros" -- implies that you can eat anything if it fits your macronutrient requirements, and obtain the same results that you would eating 100% 'clean' foods.  We can all agree that isn't the case.  If it were, I could get all my fats from chocolate, all carbs from skittles & all protein from whey, and look like a competitive bodybuilder.
> 
> 
> The most overlooked part of food is micronutrient content.. I don't know why, but people seem to focus solely on their calorie / macronutrient intake, when micronutrients also play a huge role in muscle preservation & body composition.  The more nutrient-void junk you introduce into your diet, the higher the chances of you robbing yourself of the muscle that you worked hard to build.  From my own experience, food choices also play a massive role in your ability to lose fat & push your body to its peak conditioning.  For me, the difference is night & day.  When cutting, my goal is always to minimize error in order to maximize my chances of maintaining the muscle I worked to build.  Eating 100% 'clean' has allowed me to do that, so I'll stick with it.  The long-term results I get are more satisfying to me than a moment of pleasure.



I am defending the actual dieting method, not how people interpret it - I have no time to help those who automatically respond with "so I can get all my carbs from syrup right?"
I have coached natural competitors (not just one or two people) who have won their comps with IIFYM through the majority of their prep and it didn't take long. Now I can easily ignore all of this and claim that these individuals are somehow genetically superior to others and that's why they can have flexible diets. Or, I can see the truth and admit that flexible dieting gives you to the same bf%, with the same muscle preservation, as clean eating. 
The only differing factor tends to be water retention, but we can fix that within a week so I don't see it as a big deal IME. 

Its funny that you bring up micronutrients...
I have been saying for years that the whole idea of eating "healthy" while dieting is complete bullshit. 
The process of dieting itself, as in not eating enough to actually sustain your current position, is unhealthy and always will be. You can eat clean all you want you will still have deficiencies at the end of the journey. 
People thought I was clueless but then, of course, a bunch of studies and reviews on different dieting methods and their micronutrient profiles proved me right. No matter what dieting method you use, no matter how clean you eat, your going to be risking micronutrient deficiencies when dieting - its inevitable. 
I'm too lazy to find the reviews myself but go search pubmed - trust me they exist 

But again, if clean dieting works for you then great - my posts were target at the OP. 




JAXNY said:


> I wasn't disrespeful about his believed scientific "proven" ways. Even though he probably has no idea about the people who conducted them ,how they were conducted and who or what type of people they were conducted on it even the credcredibility of whoever conducted these test.
> 
> As far as the fact that I have nothing to back up my methods as far as being scientifically documented they are proven and backed up by people like myself, Cobrastrike, Don Draco and many others throughout the years. And repetedly.
> There are people out there who are just not happy unless they are debunking something for an alternative way.
> ...



My "believed scientific proven ways" hmm..
Firstly, I've actually had conversations with some of the authors of those studies and read the studies in full unlike typical keyboard warriors - it amuses me just how clueless you seem to think I am. 

My personal coaching approach is to take those studies and use them on MANY different types of clients (men, women, lean, fat, insulin sensitive, insulin resistant, etc). Then I see what sticks and what doesn't.
This means I combine what I read in the studies with actual real life experiences with NOT just myself, but many others. 
This isn't a case of me spewing what I read in studies (as many people seem to see me in this role) or spewing what works for me personally. This is a case of me interpreting the OP's post carefully and giving him advice that I have seen work on many, many people. 

Your the only person in this thread who has interpreted my posts as me calling the OP a failure - I never said nor implied it. 
I don't find it a coincidence that he mentioned that he was a picky eater. I have read enough messages from clients in my time to know exactly what that means. 
Your response to that is to give him some short term motivation & encourage him to be mentally tough. That's great if your going to be there all the way to keep him disciplined, otherwise not so much. 

A final point that hasn't been brought up yet - I'm assuming the OP is not a bodybuilder in prep mode and actually wants to keep the 20 pounds of fat off his waist for the long term. 
If this is the case, then the clean dieting stuff has a very low chance of actually working since your telling him to eat certain foods for a TEMPORARY period when he may want to keep the fat off for the LONG TERM. 
For decades now we have been told, through different dieting philosophies to eat clean in order to lose fat. Go take a look at the obesity statistics in the western world - eating clean has been awesome...


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## JAXNY (Jan 30, 2015)

Im far from a keyboard warrior pal. You say a clean diet wont produce faster or better results based on your own experience and from your clients experience, funny how myself and many others say it does,  maybe you should try and figure out what you were doing wrong. And if you were showing your clients then that makes sense why they didn't get good results either. 
OP was asking for advice on how to better his diet and thats what we were giving him,  it was you who was trying to sell him on a copletely different approach. 
Op said that he is a picky eater, not that he is incapable of overcoming any weaknesses and being sucessful. His diet actually was on the right path other then the cheese and other crap you were trying to get him to cram down his throat. And yeah the more i hear of it the more it sounds like crap. His diet  needs some tweaking but was at a decent start. His main interest is to loose that fat around his mid section,  he stated he was beginning his cutting cycle, we were giving him our advice on the quickest way to achieve it not to put him on some slow puss diet. So I think it was you swaying him for your own interest and not his by pitching him what ever it is you're selling,  Hence your clients. 
And our way we are speaking of is not a permanent sustainable diet,  its a rapid short term cutting diet as which he stated he was beginning, then once thats finished you switch over to a more sensible sustainable maintance diet. Its not that difficult for almost anyone to endure a strict disiplined diet in order to make significant changes in body composition in a short period of time,  although it seems like you are swaying him to believe it can't be done, he can't do it and chances are almost certain he will fail before he has even started as you claim most people do fail. 
You say your advice is based off of OP circumstances, you need to re read OP post. You interpret picky eater into more of a negative than op said. 
With the diet OP laid out there it doesn't seem like he's struggling to me or not being capable of being more disciplined in order to achieve his goal if someone showed him how.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

I think beefcake might think he is a picky eater because as this thread has developed you can see that not only is he just learning about cutting fat he is also learning that there are many ways to flavor his food than he originally thought. He didnt know about ketchup/hot sauce/salsa for eggs in the am or mustard on his tuna. He did have a decent base diet already it just needed some tweaking. I believe beefcake is not as picky of an eater as he thinks he is  

This is also an obvious observation that I believe any good coach would have picked up on after a small conversation with beefcake and seems to be a good piece of insight for developing the best and fastest way to produce the results he is after.

My opinions though


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 30, 2015)

I never made any negative remarks regarding the OPs ability to diet - its you that is constantly referring to this mental weakness, your going to fail stuff and then claiming that I'm saying it all.
Isn't it amazing how you both criticize me for trying to sell him a different approach, forcing him to eat cheese, etc when in reality its YOU that haven't bothered to actually read his responses properly but instead spew the generic clean diet stuff. 

Ok lets ignore the picky eater comment he made then shall we?
What about the fact that he was already consuming fruit around his workouts and you scared him off of it hmm?
What about the fact that he admitted to being a "cheesaholic" but you convinced him that it wasn't clean and needed to go hmm?
Your right cobra, a good coach can pick up on small things like this - EXACTLY what I did and you guys didn't. 

My advise would allow him to KEEP these food sources that he self-selected in his diet and still lose fat at the same rate. 
This will also allow him to maintain that fat loss because he's eating food that he normally eats anyway but with portion control making the transition back to maintenance smoother.
Your way has him eating stuff he NEVER eats and then he will need to either eat them permanently at maintenance or go back to his favourite food sources but recalculate everything again. If you cant see how this is CLEARLY a much more difficult approach for preserving long term fat loss then there your clearly irrational & I'll stop trying to debate with you. 

As for the comments attempting to discredit my rep as a coach - lol.
Several have my clients have won their comps using the IIFYM approach, but I see no need to start boasting about this across forums since its their accomplishments & not mine. 
It intrigues me how you can have a coach giving free advice on a forum based on his knowledge, and somehow turn this into a bad thing because he's clearly selling something right?


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I never made any negative remarks regarding the OPs ability to diet - its you that is constantly referring to this mental weakness, your going to fail stuff and then claiming that I'm saying it all.
> Isn't it amazing how you both criticize me for trying to sell him a different approach, forcing him to eat cheese, etc when in reality its YOU that haven't bothered to actually read his responses properly but instead spew the generic clean diet stuff.
> 
> Ok lets ignore the picky eater comment he made then shall we?
> ...



Ok man you need to take a chill pill with all thisaccusation bullshit. I never accused you of anything except telling beefcake that it was ok to eat cheese while trying to cut...and I still stand behind that. You talk anout us being one sided but have you looked in the mirror? You are trying so dam hard to prove this iifym is the way to go that you are trying to discredit our way. Your just as guilty bro. 

How long has the iifym diet been around? How long has the tried and true "clean" eating approach been around? Yea exactly. I dont know how many Mr. Olympias have won the trophy using the iifym diet but my guess would be zero. 

I was never trying to call you a bad coach. My comment was a simple observation and I am not even a coach. And who the hell are you to say that our form of dieting would set the op up for short term progress and long term failure? Wether its our way or your way if a coach isnt there for all the stages then the dieter has the same chance at failure...just as you said ya eating clean will work if your going to be there for him....well are you going to be there for him?

You want to form his diet to allow for him to keep eating the poorly selected food he loves to eat so he will succeed with the same fat loss at the same rate? What about maintaining the same amount of muscle? You start spiking blood sugars and eating processed shit there is no way the iifym will keep up with clean. Im not even going to get into the cravings sugar and processed food cater either...your such a pubmed, studies show kinda guy so there is no reason for me to have to post thise studies cause you already know about the mental game right? 

I am also pretty sure I didnt scare him away from fruit. I never said OH CRAP BRO STOP EATING FRUIT!!! I simply stated that there is better fruit to eat and portion sizes are important. And really...who gives a **** about fruit. There is a study showing years of data involving two people where one ate veggies only and the other ate meat only...in the end their health was no different. You dont need fruit in your diet period. Your going to be vitamin deficient anyway so take some vitamins instead.

What competitions have you won zilla? I wasnt trying to discredit you as a coach but now I am curious to how far you have gotten yourself...what kind of experiences havenyou had? Do you hold a pro card? You talk about your clients winning comps on iifym...what does that mean? Is first place winning? Is second place or 10th place considered winning? Just curious as to what type of packages your presenting. 

This last post has really set your rep back brother...your locked in on defending iifym. As a coach you should know that wether iifym works or not it is NOT the BEST choice for bodybuilders regardless of what pubmed says. Hell why do they change ACLS protocols every two years? They do studies on certain meds....they find one works better than the other...in two more years they take one med out claiming it doesnt work well....in 6 years they add that med back in saying ok ya that med does work...while the whole time the people who work with the meds new it worked because we have seen it work. How many studies have been done then overturned only 5 years later because more time has went by and more results have been attained? So using "studies" in an argument is not actually end all be all. That is why nobody on these boards sees me saying here look at thisnscientific data which proves I am right lol have you ever seen Evolution of Iron (name? One with phil heath) they talk about different ways to train. They have one guy on there that literally trains with a bunch of diagnostic machines and skinny dudes with lab coats on. They calculate the peaks in muscle breakdown and biulding ect...the scientific approach. That guy is the smallest dude on the dam show


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## TheLupinator (Jan 30, 2015)

I'd like to hear from someone who started overweight i.e. ~18% body fat or higher and successfully made it to single digit % body fat using IIFYM


I know I dropped from 25% body fat to single digits. I know what that journey takes. I'm skeptical you can achieve that kind of success feeding someone Cap'n Crunch for carbs and 1% milk for fat and protein..... in theory sure, but I don't want theoretical veins popping out of my abs - I want real fuccking ones


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 30, 2015)

This is hysterical. Nobody has said eating clean sucks for everyone involved. All we have said is that it isn't necessary like you seem to think and can produce like results. 

You guys are the ones who keep insisting that flexible dieting doesn't work and that anyone who says it does must be small and has no credibility.

Saying that the discussion is over because my ifbb friend says you are wrong is as stupid as someone else saying you are wrong because my friend in this lab coat says so.


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## Beefcake (Jan 30, 2015)

Mom Dad stop arguing please!!!  I'm gonna roll up in the fetal position in the corner and cry until the arguing stops!!!  Why can't we all just get along?  lol.  Wow, what a debate!!  I think from my perspective taking several steps to try to accomplish my goal will be needed.  Instead of a cheesteak and french fries, maybe steak ums in a bowl with ketchup?  It's an alternative that I can do.  Eggs with ketchup instead of cheese may be a good start too.  Now if I'm visiting my parents and my mom makes cheese eggs tomorrow morning, then I'm not going to turn them down.  A little cheating on weekends for a meal or two is okay.  (PIZZA!!)  My 5yr old son saved some cheese puffs for me to eat, so I had to have a couple of them then that was it.  I said yummy thanks.  I didn't proceed to eat the whole bag, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings.  I used to eat cheese eggs, sausage and toast with butter every morning for breakfast, or a wawa breakfast sandwich.  Then for lunch a meat sandwich or hoagie with mayo and chips.  Then for dinner pizza, grilled cheese, mac and cheese and hot dogs, or pasta with garlic bread.  (just examples)  All of my meals contained bread, cheese, and unhealthy snacks.  I rarely eat fruit and I don't like many vegitables or rice, and hate nuts. Don't get me wrong I was never a couch potato because I am always active at home, work and at the gym.  I recently went to the doctors and I gained 10 lbs over the past year.  Now I would hope that was all muscle???, but even my doc said I need to cut back on the pasta's and carbs based on tests.  I'm 40 and it's time to make some positive changes, so why not now.  I'm on a cutting cycle and a lean, healthy diet would help me to lose some unwanted love handles.  I'm not a big fat beer belly guy by any means, but I can pinch about 2 inches of stomach fat in the front that I want to lose.  So with everyones input, guideance and experience I am confident that I can meet and or exceed my goal of losing 20 lbs in 14-16 weeks during my cycle if I set my mind to it.  So once again that you for the continued input and support!!!

Question--how many people have lost weight and kept it off?  I would suspect that once the weight is lost one would want to keep eating healthy to keep it off, if not to make new goals to lose more?  How many people got 6 pack abs from dieting and how long did it take?  With bulking you gain weight, sometimes fat, then cut to lose it.  So it's a roller coaster ride back and forthe.  Is it possible to bulk clean??


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> This is hysterical. Nobody has said eating clean sucks for everyone involved. All we have said is that it isn't necessary like you seem to think and can produce like results.
> 
> You guys are the ones who keep insisting that flexible dieting doesn't work and that anyone who says it does must be small and has no credibility.
> 
> Saying that the discussion is over because my ifbb friend says you are wrong is as stupid as someone else saying you are wrong because my friend in this lab coat says so.



Pob...no one said iifym doesnt work. We are saying its not the best choice. Just because my coach thinks the diet is shit doesnt mean its the end of the conversation I was simply repeating what he said, take it how you want. We all know that phil heath doesnt use iifym while training for Mr. Olympia lol this is bodybuilding and to me the best way while being the fastest way is the only way. I dont have time to dick around with stretching things out. If dieting was meant to be easy everyone would be walking around shredded...this is a mentally tough sport...you have one of two things...motivation or excuses...simple as that. If you cant cut the bullshit for 12 weeks then its time you look at a new goal...like crossfit


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> Mom Dad stop arguing please!!!  I'm gonna roll up in the fetal position in the corner and cry until the arguing stops!!!  Why can't we all just get along?  lol.  Wow, what a debate!!  I think from my perspective taking several steps to try to accomplish my goal will be needed.  Instead of a cheesteak and french fries, maybe steak ums in a bowl with ketchup?  It's an alternative that I can do.  Eggs with ketchup instead of cheese may be a good start too.  Now if I'm visiting my parents and my mom makes cheese eggs tomorrow morning, then I'm not going to turn them down.  A little cheating on weekends for a meal or two is okay.  (PIZZA!!)  My 5yr old son saved some cheese puffs for me to eat, so I had to have a couple of them then that was it.  I said yummy thanks.  I didn't proceed to eat the whole bag, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings.  I used to eat cheese eggs, sausage and toast with butter every morning for breakfast, or a wawa breakfast sandwich.  Then for lunch a meat sandwich or hoagie with mayo and chips.  Then for dinner pizza, grilled cheese, mac and cheese and hot dogs, or pasta with garlic bread.  (just examples)  All of my meals contained bread, cheese, and unhealthy snacks.  I rarely eat fruit and I don't like many vegitables or rice, and hate nuts. Don't get me wrong I was never a couch potato because I am always active at home, work and at the gym.  I recently went to the doctors and I gained 10 lbs over the past year.  Now I would hope that was all muscle???, but even my doc said I need to cut back on the pasta's and carbs based on tests.  I'm 40 and it's time to make some positive changes, so why not now.  I'm on a cutting cycle and a lean, healthy diet would help me to lose some unwanted love handles.  I'm not a big fat beer belly guy by any means, but I can pinch about 2 inches of stomach fat in the front that I want to lose.  So with everyones input, guideance and experience I am confident that I can meet and or exceed my goal of losing 20 lbs in 14-16 weeks during my cycle if I set my mind to it.  So once again that you for the continued input and support!!!
> 
> Question--how many people have lost weight and kept it off?  I would suspect that once the weight is lost one would want to keep eating healthy to keep it off, if not to make new goals to lose more?  How many people got 6 pack abs from dieting and how long did it take?  With bulking you gain weight, sometimes fat, then cut to lose it.  So it's a roller coaster ride back and forthe.  Is it possible to bulk clean??



Yes it is very possible to bulk clean brother. Just cause your bulking doesnt mean you have to gain alot of fat. Alot of people use bulking as an excuse to eat like shit.


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 30, 2015)

Cobra, not all of my comments were directed at you (the discredit stuff at jaxny) - I simply couldn't be bothered to organize the post properly.

As POB said, my original post simply provided the OP with an alternative way of reaching his goals. From there, you guys attacked me and refused to believe that IIFYM produces the same results as clean dieting. I was simply defending myself (with some help from POB & Doc). 
If you actually read my posts with an open mind, everything I have said makes perfect sense. 

I will leave this debate with a few examples of well known natural bodybuilders & coaches who I know for a FACT used IIFYM through contest prep (not including my own clients who aren't big names like these guys):
- Ryan Doris
- Kane Sumabat
- Alberto Nunez
- All layne Norton clients
- All Alan aragon clients
- All 3DMJ clients

Google some of those names and then tell me that they don't look awesome.
The real reason the ifbb pros don't use IIFYM is because they're taking a bunch of stuff that makes food choices matter - like insulin for example. Your going to find its actually common place for natural bodybuilders to use IIFYM, rather than the minority.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Cobra, not all of my comments were directed at you (the discredit stuff at jaxny) - I simply couldn't be bothered to organize the post properly.
> 
> As POB said, my original post simply provided the OP with an alternative way of reaching his goals. From there, you guys attacked me and refused to believe that IIFYM produces the same results as clean dieting. I was simply defending myself (with some help from POB & Doc).
> If you actually read my posts with an open mind, everything I have said makes perfect sense.
> ...



I can understand that. IIfym for natural might work the same or better than for guys like most of us who are incorporating alot of other supps. Maybe that is the thought behind my coaches statement as well? I cant attest to the results iifym has produced as I have never used it myself and most likely wont but to each their own. If you have had success with it then good...no skin off my back. 

This is what I am taking from this thread...

We all have a great passion, respect and love for this sport and this thread obviously shows how serious we all take this  

No hard feelings and I still love you guys


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## Beefcake (Jan 30, 2015)

Oh BTW based on a chart that I just got, I'm at 25% body fat.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

One thing is for sure brother...you have a tough challenge in front of you but its definitely a challenge you can destroy if you really want it..but you have to really want it. Nobody can lose the fat for you. Cant wait to hear your results and if you ever have any questions along the way there are many of us here willing to help you!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 30, 2015)

TheLupinator said:


> I'd like to hear from someone who started overweight i.e. ~18% body fat or higher and successfully made it to single digit % body fat using IIFYM
> 
> 
> I know I dropped from 25% body fat to single digits. I know what that journey takes. I'm skeptical you can achieve that kind of success feeding someone Cap'n Crunch for carbs and 1% milk for fat and protein..... in theory sure, but I don't want theoretical veins popping out of my abs - I want real fuccking ones



Me. At one point I was probably about 20% BF or so. At the end of losing weight I could see my abs. Brownies and ice cream, among other 'junk' foods were always a part of the diet. 

Very funny ending to the post. An appeal to an extreme or a logical fallacy. Let's see your real, not hypothetical, abs by using olive oil as your only fat source and brown rice for your only carb and protein source. We can play this game both ways...


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## TheLupinator (Jan 30, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> Me. At one point I was probably about 20% BF or so. At the end of losing weight I could see my abs. Brownies and ice cream, among other 'junk' foods were always a part of the diet.
> 
> Very funny ending to the post. An appeal to an extreme or a logical fallacy. Let's see your real, not hypothetical, abs by using olive oil as your only fat source and brown rice for your only carb and protein source. We can play this game both ways...


Probably 20%? Then you could see your abs? I can see my abs at 15% (while flexing)..... And how often did you eat ice cream and brownies?.. Not saying you're full of shit, only you know, but I know personally I wouldn't be able to do that - whether that's a nutritional/physical block or a mental one is up for debate.


The ending was an extreme bc you guys stated the source of the calories n macros doesn't matter. I never said that you could get away with eating only one source of fat, carbs, protein given it's healthy, so you hand cuffing me to only olive oil and brown rice doesn't make sense. 


Overall I'm a firm believer in quality of food not just macros. This is my bias bc it's what worked for me. I'll leave it at that.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 30, 2015)

TheLupinator said:


> Probably 20%? Then you could see your abs? I can see my abs at 15% (while flexing)..... And how often did you eat ice cream and brownies?.. Not saying you're full of shit, only you know, but I know personally I wouldn't be able to do that - whether that's a nutritional/physical block or a mental one is up for debate.



I cannot see a a at 15% and it also wasn't when I was flexing or pumped from a workout. It was 24/7. It's not a physiological block I can assure you of that. Some people cannot control how much they eat of certain things. They take one bite which turns to 50. Of you cannot limit yourself to moderatE amounts you might be better off with the none at all approach. 




> The ending was an extreme bc you guys stated the source of the calories n macros doesn't matter. I never said that you could get away with eating only one source of fat, carbs, protein given it's healthy, so you hand cuffing me to only olive oil and brown rice doesn't make sense.
> 
> 
> Overall I'm a firm believer in quality of food not just macros. This is my bias bc it's what worked for me. I'll leave it at that.



And you handcuffed me to cheese and cereal. I make mention of moderation in almost all of my posts but didn't specifically say it here. Context and dose. I ALSO never said you could get away with one source so why present an example to me that does just that? The source matters very very little, almost to the point of not mattering at all, when you look at the big picture. Everything in moderation.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 30, 2015)

I just finished my cup of rice mixed with 5 ounces of lean ground taco turkey with some salsa...that shit right there is so dam good it could be considered  cheating from taste alone mmmmmm mmmm


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## jennerrator (Jan 30, 2015)

Beefcake said:


> Oh BTW based on a chart that I just got, I'm at 25% body fat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can handle up to 15% lol


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 30, 2015)

Jenner said:


> I can handle up to 15% lol



Just got dexa scanned at 14.99997%.....FUKK YEA, DOC MAKES THE CUTOFF!!!!!!!!


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## jennerrator (Jan 30, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> Just got dexa scanned at 14.99997%.....FUKK YEA, DOC MAKES THE CUTOFF!!!!!!!!



hahahahahahahahahhahaha.....lmao!


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