# Order of exercise



## Koonj (Jul 9, 2022)

On push day, should I do the press movements for shoulders and chest first follow up with accessory lifts for each or do all of one before the other (all chest then shoulders or vice versa)


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## CJ (Jul 9, 2022)

Koonj said:


> On push day, should I do the press movements for shoulders and chest first follow up with accessory lifts for each or do all of one before the other (all chest then shoulders or vice versa)


I'd suggest to completely do first whichever is your priority. If you want to focus on growing your chest this block, do your chest movements, then your shoulders, then your triceps or whatever smaller muscle group. 

If you want to bring up your shoulders, you can do it in reverse. 

Generally, whatever we do first gets the most out of our training. Fatigue builds up over the course of a workout.


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## OldeBull1 (Jul 9, 2022)

I like big to small, compounds before isolation. It might go bench press, military press, chest flyes. Move weight first, then follow up with pump and burn.


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## silentlemon1011 (Jul 9, 2022)

OldeBull1 said:


> I like big to small, compounds before isolation. It might go bench press, military press, chest flyes. Move weight first, then follow up with pump and burn.



Im in the same boat
I predominantly Powerlift though, so im pretty biased
Ill look around the same on push day (Im currently PPLL, but with an emphasis on the big lifts)

My last push day was

Flat bench
Incline Bench
Close grip bench
DB shoulder Press
DV Lateral raises
Cable tricep extension


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## Koonj (Jul 9, 2022)

Right now on push day 1 I do chest first then shoulders then triceps. Push day 2 I put shoulders first. I was just trying to see if people find it more advantageous to do the compounds for both first.


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## CJ (Jul 9, 2022)

Koonj said:


> Right now on push day 1 I do chest first then shoulders then triceps. Push day 2 I put shoulders first. I was just trying to see if people find it more advantageous to do the compounds for both first.


It's all YOUR priorities and needs. 

On one of my push days, I do Laterals before Shldr Presses, so my shoulders are the limiting factor in my presses, and not my triceps.


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## Skullcrusher (Jul 9, 2022)

I've done both ways. But I think I prefer to fatigue front delts first to recruit more chest muscle fibers when I do bench press. RPE for OHP can be kind of high and if I go heavy it makes it a little tougher to do later in my workout.


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## silentlemon1011 (Jul 9, 2022)

CJ said:


> It's all YOUR priorities and needs.
> 
> On one of my push days, I do Laterals before Shldr Presses, so my shoulders are the limiting factor in my presses, and not my triceps.



Yes
A good piece of advise i got for shoulder growth was actually what you just said, that saw me break through a shoulder plateau.

Turns out, i was so tired after shoulder press (Whatever variation i happened to do that day) that i never massacred my lateral delts.

In the defense if my previous post, i did mention i was biased due to Powerlifting being my main driver


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## Koonj (Jul 9, 2022)

Definitely want to bring up my delts. May give laterals before presses a shot


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## RiR0 (Jul 9, 2022)

I’d say do your biggest movements first. 
What do you think will provide more growth 
A bench press of a fly? A overhead press or a lateral raise? 
A DC push day for example would be 
Incline bench 
Smith shoulder press
Weighted dips 

Why would you do something that’ll take away from the movement that will provide the most mechanical tension first


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## RiR0 (Jul 9, 2022)

There’s studies show preexhausting with a isolation movement leads to less growth


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## iGone (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> There’s studies show preexhausting with a isolation movement leads to less growth


This pretty much summarizes how I've always tried to prioritize my lifts. 
Big compounds first, finish with isolation accessories.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

Koonj said:


> Definitely want to bring up my delts. May give laterals before presses a shot


I wouldn't, unless you're already big enough to truly know what your weak points are.

I'm just experimenting. May work, may not. 🤷‍♂️


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

Skullcrusher said:


> I've done both ways. But I think I prefer to fatigue front delts first to recruit more chest muscle fibers when I do bench press. RPE for OHP can be kind of high and if I go heavy it makes it a little tougher to do later in my workout.


Because front delts are greater than>> chest?

Crazy talk once again. That nuts and makes zero sense.

Start with the biggest muscle or lift that recruits the most muscles. That’s the compound movements. They will also work the smaller muscles around the main muscles. Then fine tune with accessory movements to hit the front delts.

When you “pre-fatigue” the smaller muscles and then do a compound movement you’re going to be risking injury if you use any weight heavy enough to adequately stimulate the larger muscle. The smaller muscles are already exhausted and you’re going to toss heavier weights around? Dumb.


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## silentlemon1011 (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I’d say do your biggest movements first.
> What do you think will provide more growth
> A bench press of a fly? A overhead press or a lateral raise?
> A DC push day for example would be
> ...





RiR0 said:


> There’s studies show preexhausting with a isolation movement leads to less growth





BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Because front delts are greater than>> chest?
> 
> Crazy talk once again. That nuts and makes zero sense.
> 
> ...



So there is zero benefit to, say,
Doing lateral raises before DB shoulder press or military press?

I kinda figured that Lateral heads are not a major mover, so it wouldnt affect my OHP too much as long as i give myself adequate rest time.

Didnt know that.
I rarely do it, like i said, PL being my driver, but it looks like its going from Rare, to never


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## wotmeworry (Jul 10, 2022)

Puts me in mind of that rocks, pebbles and sand in the jar metaphor: put the sand in first and you run out of room for the rocks.

With legs pull push I prefer to do any compound exercises first and top up any stimulus needed with isolation/machine work.  Get the best return possible on the heavier lifts (with best control/less risk of injury) then move to easier exercises (easier to push to failure with less concentration needed).

Makes progress tracking on compound lifts more accurate, too.


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## Texan69 (Jul 10, 2022)

I start with a compound lift and go heavy for that rep range. I try to keep my first lift 6-12 reps heavy. 

Lot of guys will do a chest focus push day and then a shoulder focus push day the next one. 

I do a lot of heavy incline pressing so that hammers my delts good. My shoulder presses are usually lighter weight focused on time under tension and a nice slow tempo 
Especially after some heavy incline and dips my front delts are fried 

Current push day 
20/12/8/6 barbell incline last two sets are heavy AF 
4x8-12 flys 
3x dips to failure 
3x 8shoulder press DB or machine 
3x 15 side laterals 
4x 12 rear delt 
3x6-8 skullcrusher
3x20 tricep pushdown 

Add some push ups at the end and I’m smoked


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

silentlemon1011 said:


> So there is zero benefit to, say,
> Doing lateral raises before DB shoulder press or military press?
> 
> I kinda figured that Lateral heads are not a major mover, so it wouldnt affect my OHP too much as long as i give myself adequate rest time.
> ...


I dunno, during covid when I had limited equipment, I was doing leg extensions before squats because I simply don't get the best quad involvement from squats.

Squats is all ass and adductors for me, but when I was doing leg exts first, squats became much much much better for my quads.

It's also only been 1 session of Laterals before Presses, but in that session, it actually felt like I was getting better shoulder work in the presses vs triceps being the limiting factor


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> When you “pre-fatigue” the smaller muscles and then do a compound movement you’re going to be risking injury if you use any weight heavy enough to adequately stimulate the larger muscle. The smaller muscles are already exhausted and you’re going to toss heavier weights around? Dumb.


I've heard a few pros argue the exact OPPOSITE. John Meadows and Fouad Abiad specifically come to mind. 

John Meadows for example brought up the argument that by pre fatiguing with other exercises, you HAVE TO use less weight on squats later, thus lessening axial loading and injury risk. 

Granted that was due to an absolute weight issue, repping out 4 pps squats vs 6 pps was safer, in his example. 

This is from a BB perspective though, not a PL.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> I dunno, during covid when I had limited equipment, I was doing leg extensions before squats because I simply don't get the best quad involvement from squats.
> 
> Squats is all ass and adductors for me, but when I was doing leg exts first, squats became much much much better for my quads.
> 
> It's also only been 1 session of Laterals before Presses, but in that session, it actually felt like I was getting better shoulder work in the presses vs triceps being the limiting factor


Feeling more doesn’t mean more productive. Hex presses or sideways chest presses people feel more than a barbell bench.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> I've heard a few pros argue the exact OPPOSITE. John Meadows and Fouad Abiad specifically come to mind.
> 
> John Meadows for example brought up the argument that by pre fatiguing with other exercises, you HAVE TO use less weight on squats later, thus lessening axial loading and injury risk.
> 
> ...


I love John but he wasn’t a stranger to wacky nonsense and Fouad isn’t really who I’d listen to for training advice


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Feeling more doesn’t mean more productive. Hex presses or sideways chest presses people feel more than a barbell bench.


No, but if I'm failing at RiR5 for my shoulders or quads in a press or a squat in the target muscle, what's the point? 

Wouldn't that be just as silly as failing rows or DLs due to a grip issue when simply using straps could fix the issue?


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

People are often advised to do Pec Deck before benching as well, to feel and/or pre fatigue the pecs, and get more out of them during pressing.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

I don't think it's ALWAYS beneficial, but I do think it CAN be, in the proper context/circumstances.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> People are often advised to do Pec Deck before benching as well, to feel and/or pre fatigue the pecs, and get more out of them during pressing.


And that’s nonsense. 
People are advised to do all sorts of wacky shit


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

Effects of exercise order on upper-body muscle activation and exercise performance - PubMed
					

With the purpose of manipulating training stimuli, several techniques have been employed to resistance training. Two of the most popular techniques are the pre-exhaustion (PRE) and priority system (PS). PRE involves exercising the same muscle or muscle group to the point of muscular failure...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> I don't think it's ALWAYS beneficial, but I do think it CAN be, in the proper context/circumstances.


Under what circumstances would less mechanical be more beneficial for growth


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> No, but if I'm failing at RiR5 for my shoulders or quads in a press or a squat in the target muscle, what's the point?
> 
> Wouldn't that be just as silly as failing rows or DLs due to a grip issue when simply using straps could fix the issue?


Not even close to the same.
How is using straps? Which will help you move more weight the same as making yourself weaker? 
How are you failing at rir of 5?
Sounds like you need to work on technique. 
Preexhaust is bullshit tbh.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

Hey you wanna grow bigger legs? How about you make yourself squat less. 
Yep you’ll definitely grow bigger from 100pb leg extensions than a 300lb squat
Feeling doesn’t matter


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Effects of exercise order on upper-body muscle activation and exercise performance - PubMed
> 
> 
> With the purpose of manipulating training stimuli, several techniques have been employed to resistance training. Two of the most popular techniques are the pre-exhaustion (PRE) and priority system (PS). PRE involves exercising the same muscle or muscle group to the point of muscular failure...
> ...


OK, but that was studying performance for the specific main exercise, not hypertrophy of a target muscle. Big difference. 

And I agree with you MOST of the time on this, that the big compound is, best the vast majority of the time. Just not always.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> OK, but that was studying performance for the specific main exercise, not hypertrophy of a target muscle. Big difference.
> 
> And I agree with you MOST of the time on this, that the big compound is, best the vast majority of the time. Just not always.


You’re completely wrong they showed less growth overall. 
You don’t need to prexhaust you need to work on your technique.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Under what circumstances would less mechanical be more beneficial for growth


If by mechanical you're referring to absolute load....

When the target muscle isnt as active in the main movement as other muscles.

Like quads in a squat for many, myself included.

Or maybe the back gives out before the legs do perhaps in squats. Pre fatiguing the legs might allow better leg stimulus with lighter loads, which the back can handle?

Many don't get get the best pec involvement in benchpress either.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Not even close to the same.
> How is using straps? Which will help you move more weight the same as making yourself weaker?
> How are you failing at rir of 5?
> Sounds like you need to work on technique.
> Preexhaust is bullshit tbh.


Not all muscles involved in a compound exercise have the same exact point of failure. There's always a muscle that will fail before other(s)

I already brought up grip on a deadlift as an easy example.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Not all muscles involved in a compound exercise have the same exact point of failure. There's always a muscle that will fail before other(s)
> 
> I already brought up grip on a deadlift as an easy example.


Deadlift was a stupid example. 
How is making yourself move more of a load the same as decreasing mechanical tension?


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> You’re completely wrong they showed less growth overall.
> You don’t need to prexhaust you need to work on your technique.


Unless you linked the wrong study, that one was not measuring growth, merely the output for a specific exercise. 

Not saying that you're wrong, but that study did not show that, nor was it measuring that. Granted, I can only see the abstract, but it makes no mention of measuring hypertrophy for any muscle.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> If by mechanical you're referring to absolute load....
> 
> When the target muscle isnt as active in the main movement as other muscles.
> 
> ...


Cool sounds like they need better exercise selection or to ya know work on technique.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Unless you linked the wrong study, that one was not measuring growth, merely the output for a specific exercise.
> 
> Not saying that you're wrong, but that study did not show that, nor was it measuring that. Granted, I can only see the abstract, but it makes no mention of measuring hypertrophy for any muscle.


Because the actual study is $50


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Deadlift was a stupid example.
> How is making yourself move more of a load the same as decreasing mechanical tension?


Because you will be able to get closer to failure for a SPECIFIC muscle that you are targeting for whatever reason. Thus making that set more productive for THAT SPECIFIC MUSCLE.

I am in no way suggesting that it's optimal for overall growth, only as a potential way to target a specific muscle in a lift.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Cool sounds like they need better exercise selection or to ya know work on technique.


Exercise selection is definitely an option. No argument there. But not always possible 

But technique isn't always the issue. Assistance lifts exist for a reason.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Because you will be able to get closer to failure for a SPECIFIC muscle that you are targeting for whatever reason. This making that set more productive for THAT SPECIFIC MUSCLE.
> 
> I am in no way suggesting that it's optimal for overall growth, only as a potential way to target a specific muscle in a lift.


How is the set more productive if you’re weaker? 
Again, technique of exercise selection. 

If I fatigue my chest before a bench press my triceps will take over, the chest isn’t “activated” more


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Exercise selection is definitely an option. No argument there. But not always possible
> 
> But technique isn't always the issue. Assistance lifts exist for a reason.


If you’re not hitting the target muscle then yes it is a technique issue. What are you even saying


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Deadlift was a stupid example.
> How is making yourself move more of a load the same as decreasing mechanical tension?


It is not a stupid example. If one fails in a row or dl due to grip issues, are they getting as good of a back workout as they could have? 

My example was showing that different muscles fail at different points in a compound lift. 

It was actually a fantastic example. 😊


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> It is not a stupid example. If one fails in a row or dl due to grip issues, are they getting as good of a back workout as they could have?
> 
> My example was showing that different muscles fail at different points in a compound lift.
> 
> It was actually a fantastic example. 😊


No its not! You’ve made yourself able to move more of a load with the wrist straps. 
 Preexhaust you’ve weakened the muscle

It’s a shit example


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> How is the set more productive if you’re weaker?
> Again, technique of exercise selection.
> 
> If I fatigue my chest before a bench press my triceps will take over, the chest isn’t “activated” more


Your triceps will take over after once chest muscles start to tire out, and the set will ultimately end because your pecs can no longer handle enough of the load.

Your pecs now get great stimulation from the Benchpress, whereas before maybe the shoulders were the weak link, and you reached failure well before the pecs reached the best stimulation. 

Great set for the shoulders, not so much for the pecs, in that example.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> No its not! You’ve made yourself able to move more of a load with the wrist straps.
> Preexhaust you’ve weakened the muscle
> 
> It’s a shit example


It wasn't an example of pre exhaustion, merely how not all muscles fail at the same time in a compound lift. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Same as in a squat, or a bench, or a press... All the muscles involved do not have the same capacity. One will fail before the others.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Your triceps will take over after once chest muscles start to tire out, and the set will ultimately end because your pecs can no longer handle enough of the load.
> 
> Your pecs now get great stimulation from the Benchpress, whereas before maybe the shoulders were the weak link, and you reached failure well before the pecs reached the best stimulation.
> 
> Great set for the shoulders, not so much for the pecs, in that example.


Jesus Christ no! That’s literally not what happens. Oh, wait you feel it more. So it must be working.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

I do have to get back to bed though, I woke up to piss and got sucked in. I have to be up in 3 hours, we can continue tomorrow if you'd like. It's a decent conversation.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

The study showed that the muscles of the chest were not more efficiently recruited as EMG signals confirmed. The only muscle that had a higher EMG during the bench press was the triceps, and this was simply because the chest was fatigued and motor units from the pectoralis region could not be as effectively recruited. This study concluded that if you want to get better at a particular exercise, perform it first in the training session.


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## Texan69 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> No, but if I'm failing at RiR5 for my shoulders or quads in a press or a squat in the target muscle, what's the point?
> 
> Wouldn't that be just as silly as failing rows or DLs due to a grip issue when simply using straps could fix the issue?


Good point


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> The study showed that the muscles of the chest were not more efficiently recruited as EMG signals confirmed. The only muscle that had a higher EMG during the bench press was the triceps, and this was simply because the chest was fatigued and motor units from the pectoralis region could not be as effectively recruited. This study concluded that if you want to get better at a particular exercise, perform it first in the training session.


If you want to use EMG as a metric, then unfortunately you'll have to go back and give @Skullcrusher an apology, as DB Tricep Kickbacks have a higher EMG than both CGBP and Dips, per the study he linked. Awkwarrrrrddddd!!! 😬

And again, getting better at a multi joint compound exercise is not the same thing as hypertrophy of a particular muscle.

Did you happen to purchase that study? I was curious if ALL the individual data points supported your argument, or if there were outliers. It's out of my budget to buy a bunch of studies on a whim, unfortunately.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

Oh, and I also hate you @RiR0 because you cost me a bunch of sleep last night. I'm lying in bed, but couldn't stop going over this in my head, so fukk you!!!  🤣

That being said, I think I concede a good amount of the argument. In fact I'm going to drop my Laterals before Presses experiment. I'll just do the Laterals afterwards. I think I'll end up in the same place, probably more quickly. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.

But I will hold firm that it's a viable option if injury is a concern. Or equipment/weight availability is lacking. Or possibly in other circumstances that I'm just not thinking of at the moment.


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## Yano (Jul 10, 2022)

uhhh .,... huh ?

I dont know compound movements from bowel movements an all this fancy hoorah and horse hockey and no i aint no BB ... what makes sense for me is

Main movers - bench squat or dead
main accessories that help that first lift -
and a filler like abs at the end

So a bench day would look something like
Flat Bench
Incline Bench or Seated 
Spoto Presses
JM Press
Standing Rows - I dont have cables to do cabely things
Abs - left lifts , Russian Twists , wtf ever.

I realize thats not BB stuff so to speak.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

Yano said:


> uhhh .,... huh ?
> 
> I dont know compound movements from bowel movements an all this fancy hoorah and horse hockey and no i aint no BB ... what makes sense for me is
> 
> ...


Well powerlifting is stupid, so there's that!!!  😁


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## Yano (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Well powerlifting is stupid, so there's that!!!  😁


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> It is not a stupid example. If one fails in a row or dl due to grip issues, are they getting as good of a back workout as they could have?
> 
> My example was showing that different muscles fail at different points in a compound lift.
> 
> It was actually a fantastic example. 😊


It’s a dumb example because I don’t do rows or deadlift to work or target grip strength. Straps are easy to use and would allow anyone to work the muscles you are ACTUALLY targeting in a DL or row.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> It’s a dumb example because I don’t do rows or deadlift to work or target grip strength. Straps are easy to use and would allow anyone to work the muscles you are ACTUALLY targeting in a DL or row.


Yes, that's exactly my point. You train to target the back, but it's possible for another muscle to give out first, this limiting the effectiveness of an exercise.

Say your back gave out before your quads on squats. Isn't doing leg exts prior a viable option if you're targeting your quads?

And you took my statement out of context anyway. It was made in reference to a claim being made that a non target muscle failing being a form issue. We all know one's grip can still fail in a deadlift, even with pristine form.


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## TODAY (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Yes, that's exactly my point. You train to target the back, but it's possible for another muscle to give out first, this limiting the effectiveness of an exercise.
> 
> Say your back gave out before your quads on squats. Isn't doing leg exts prior a viable option if you're targeting your quads?


Eh, I think there's a practical issue at play here:

By pre-exhausting your quads prior to squatting, you are likely to reduce knee extension potential to such a degree that the movement pattern changes in fundamental ways, IE: more forward lean. As such, the exercise could very well lead to even _less_ quad stimulation.


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Yes, that's exactly my point. You train to target the back, but it's possible for another muscle to give out first, this limiting the effectiveness of an exercise.
> 
> Say your back gave out before your quads on squats. Isn't doing leg exts prior a viable option if you're targeting your quads?
> 
> And you took my statement out of context anyway. It was made in reference to a claim being made that a non target muscle failing being a form issue. We all know one's grip can still fail in a deadlift, even with pristine form.


I still don’t get it. If your lower back hurts from squats your technique is off. Simply bracing the core gets you around that. And if your lower back hurts so much that you physically can’t complete squats, then you have an injury and you shouldn’t be doing squats at all. Simply select a more suitable exercise in the meantime. 🤷‍♂️

You seem to be taking a compound movement and making it less effective.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Not all muscles involved in a compound exercise have the same exact point of failure. There's always a muscle that will fail before other(s)
> 
> I already brought up grip on a deadlift as an easy example.





TODAY said:


> Eh, I think there's a practical issue at play here:
> 
> By pre-exhausting your quads prior to squatting, you are likely to reduce knee extension potential to such a degree that the movement pattern changes in fundamental ways, IE: more forward lean. As such, the exercise could very well lead to even _less_ quad stimulation.


Possibly. I'm not knowledgeable enough on kinesiology to say for certain.

Squats was just an example. Swap in leg press.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> I still don’t get it. If your lower back hurts from squats your technique is off. Simply bracing the core gets you around that. And if your lower back hurts so much that you physically can’t complete squats, then you have an injury and you shouldn’t be doing squats at all. Simply select a more suitable exercise in the meantime. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> You seem to be taking a compound movement and making it less effective.


Not talking about pain, rather a non target muscle can fail first before the desired muscle.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Not talking about pain, rather a non target muscle can fail first before the desired muscle.


Yes if you’re doing it wrong.


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Not talking about pain, rather a non target muscle can fail first before the desired muscle.


Perhaps you can provide a scenario that’s better than deadlift/row because the solution to that is “use straps”. Easy. 

Why would the uninjured lower back “fail” before leg muscles when doing a squat?

Bigger muscle groups do the vast majority of the work in compound exercises. You then work on isolation or accessory movements to work the smaller muscles, the purpose for this is to provide those secondary muscles enough stimulus to ALSO grow. If all you do is squat/bench/deadlift then you’re a powerlifter but a weak one because they didn’t do the accessory work and THOSE guys regularly have the situation that you are trying to describe. It still means that you do the compound movements/bigger movements first.


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## wotmeworry (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Not talking about pain, rather a non target muscle can fail first before the desired muscle.


Don't know why your point keeps getting missed in this thread, CJ.  It is really an argument for efficiency: pre exhaust the target muscle before an inherently untargeted compound exercise (untargeted as in hitting several muscles, any one of which could limit the exercise).

Why pound away on squats if your intent is to target quads ... you impose a shitload of extra effort on your body to hit your quads.  Different if you want to compete, do squats for fun, or want to hit quads and glutes and hit your back with an isometric stress in one movement.

Assume form is perfect and the argument is unchanged: pre-exhaust cuts down unnecessary load on the compound exercise to get the result you want (target muscle stimulus).  You are more likely to fail with the targeted muscle before others. Simply self-evident.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Perhaps you can provide a scenario that’s better than deadlift/row because the solution to that is “use straps”. Easy.
> 
> Why would the uninjured lower back “fail” before leg muscles when doing a squat?
> 
> Bigger muscle groups do the vast majority of the work in compound exercises. You then work on isolation or accessory movements to work the smaller muscles, the purpose for this is to provide those secondary muscles enough stimulus to ALSO grow. If all you do is squat/bench/deadlift then you’re a powerlifter but a weak one because they didn’t do the accessory work and THOSE guys regularly have the situation that you are trying to describe. It still means that you do the compound movements/bigger movements first.





BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Perhaps you can provide a scenario that’s better than deadlift/row because the solution to that is “use straps”. Easy.
> 
> Why would the uninjured lower back “fail” before leg muscles when doing a squat?


Because in every multi joint compound movement, one muscle will fail first. All muscles don't have the exact save strength and endurance. If they did, accessory lifts would not exist, as there'd be no need for them.


BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Bigger muscle groups do the vast majority of the work in compound exercises. You then work on isolation or accessory movements to work the smaller muscles, the purpose for this is to provide those secondary muscles enough stimulus to ALSO grow. If all you do is squat/bench/deadlift then you’re a powerlifter but a weak one because they didn’t do the accessory work and THOSE guys regularly have the situation that you are trying to describe. It still means that you do the compound movements/bigger movements first.


Agreed, and I've already backed off my position somewhat of pre fatiguing with isolation before compounds except for isolated circumstances, in prior posts this morning.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Yes if you’re doing it wrong.


You know that's simply not true.

If that were true, why can the best deadlifters in the world lift more with straps, even with perfect form.

You 100% know that the smaller muscles of the forearm can fail before the larger muscles of the glutes or back.

Or we can talk about Thrusters, and how that's not a great exercise for the legs because of the lack of relative shoulder strength. 😉🤣


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> If you want to use EMG as a metric, then unfortunately you'll have to go back and give @Skullcrusher an apology, as DB Tricep Kickbacks have a higher EMG than both CGBP and Dips, per the study he linked. Awkwarrrrrddddd!!! 😬
> 
> And again, getting better at a multi joint compound exercise is not the same thing as hypertrophy of a particular muscle.
> 
> Did you happen to purchase that study? I was curious if ALL the individual data points supported your argument, or if there were outliers. It's out of my budget to buy a bunch of studies on a whim, unfortunately.


EMGs have their limitations but it’s ridiculous to dismiss them all together. 

Skullcrusher is too stupid to understand what he posted and there are obvious common sense issues with a db kickback which are fixed by laying on your back to do them.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

wotmeworry said:


> Don't know why your point keeps getting missed in this thread, CJ.  It is really an argument for efficiency: pre exhaust the target muscle before an inherently untargeted compound exercise (untargeted as in hitting several muscles, any one of which could limit the exercise).
> 
> Why pound away on squats if your intent is to target quads ... you impose a shitload of extra effort on your body to hit your quads.  Different if you want to compete, do squats for fun, or want to hit quads and glutes and hit your back with an isometric stress in one movement.
> 
> Assume form is perfect and the argument is unchanged: pre-exhaust cuts down unnecessary load on the compound exercise to get the result you want (target muscle stimulus).  You are more likely to fail with the targeted muscle before others. Simply self-evident.


Well except that’s not what actually happens and this is where you get people trying to use logic on shit they don’t understand.


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## silentlemon1011 (Jul 10, 2022)

Okay
Actual question,

So weak point of main moving/Heavy compound lifts.

The research is saying, from what i can understand, that weak point accessories should be done POST heavy mover

IE, Forearm/Grip strength, after DL.

Thoughts on guys that lift raw?

Like, i NEVER use straps for DL


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> EMGs have their limitations but it’s ridiculous to dismiss them all together.


Agreed, no argument from me.


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

wotmeworry said:


> Don't know why your point keeps getting missed in this thread, CJ.  It is really an argument for efficiency: pre exhaust the target muscle before an inherently untargeted compound exercise (untargeted as in hitting several muscles, any one of which could limit the exercise).
> 
> Why pound away on squats if your intent is to target quads ... you impose a shitload of extra effort on your body to hit your quads.  Different if you want to compete, do squats for fun, or want to hit quads and glutes and hit your back with an isometric stress in one movement.
> 
> Assume form is perfect and the argument is unchanged: pre-exhaust cuts down unnecessary load on the compound exercise to get the result you want (target muscle stimulus).  You are more likely to fail with the targeted muscle before others. Simply self-evident.


Right. So instead of bench pressing heavy which is FAR more mechanical tension, do pec deck or flies FIRST so you can bench less weight. I see why that makes sense. 

You guys aren’t even answering OP’s original question now. We’re far off topic and OP stabbed himself in the neck. Sorry OP. We definitely let you down. We can have UGBB members killing themselves when we argue a point that’s only relevant for a small percentage of situations. Does it work, sure. But it doesn’t work as effectively.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Right. So instead of bench pressing heavy which is FAR more mechanical tension, do pec deck or flies FIRST so you can bench less weight. I see why that makes sense.
> 
> You guys aren’t even answering OP’s original question now. We’re far off topic and OP stabbed himself in the neck. Sorry OP. We definitely let you down. We can have UGBB members killing themselves when we argue a point that’s only relevant for a small percentage of situations. Does it work, sure. But it doesn’t work as effectively.


Still ended up being a good conversation though. Everyone was respectful, didn't turn into a shitshow.


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Still ended up being a good conversation though. Everyone was respectful, didn't turn into a shitshow.


Agreed. I’m not sure if newbs would read the entire thread though. But fuck them if they don’t. That’s on them.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> Agreed. I’m not sure if newbs would read the entire thread though. But fuck them if they don’t. That’s on them.


I ended up abandoning my experiment as a result. If they don't want to read, they can go to YouTube.  🤷‍♂️


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## Texan69 (Jul 10, 2022)

BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> It’s a dumb example because I don’t do rows or deadlift to work or target grip strength. Straps are easy to use and would allow anyone to work the muscles you are ACTUALLY targeting in a DL or row.


This ^^^


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## Koonj (Jul 10, 2022)

I followed the whole thing and thought the conversation was interesting and I think I even learned a few things. Thank you all


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 10, 2022)

Koonj said:


> I followed the whole thing and thought the conversation was interesting and I think I even learned a few things. Thank you all


No problem. Can we still fight with each even though you got your question answered? 🤣


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## Koonj (Jul 10, 2022)

have at it. No holds barred.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

I just want to see somebody grow as quick possible using prexhaust and eating .8g of protein per lb.


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I just want to see somebody grow as quick possible using prexhaust and eating .8g of protein per lb.


Challenge accepted sir. Can I use PB to fulfill my protein requirements?


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Challenge accepted sir. Can I use PB to fulfill my protein requirements?


Fuck yeah. Count all protein sources even incomplete ones


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## CJ (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Fuck yeah. Count all protein sources even incomplete ones


Call me the Quinoa Kid!!!  😎


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## silentlemon1011 (Jul 10, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Fuck yeah. Count all protein sources even incomplete ones



You can complete the protein by eating them with Carbs


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## TODAY (Jul 10, 2022)

CJ said:


> Call me the Quinoa Kid!!!  😎


Easy there, Collagen Cowboy.

That much protein could put your kidneys in jeopardy.


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## RiR0 (Jul 10, 2022)

TODAY said:


> Easy there, Collagen Cowboy.
> 
> That much protein could put your kidneys in jeopardy.


I’m very health conscious that’s why I limit protein intake to 100g a day and make up for it with superdrol


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## wotmeworry (Jul 11, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Well except that’s not what actually happens and this is where you get people trying to use logic on shit they don’t understand.


Hasn't happened in your experience, maybe.

Definitely happens.  Example: recovering elbow extensor tendons, need some load in latter part of recovery but cannot handle heavy presses, don't want to miss chest workout for the duration ... so pec deck to hit chest and finish with lighter presses that still stress the (somewhat) fatigued pectorals.

Not the norm, but happened to me, so I definitely understand.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than dreamt of in your philosophy"


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## dk8594 (Jul 11, 2022)

CJ said:


> I'd suggest to completely do first whichever is your priority. If you want to focus on growing your chest this block, do your chest movements, then your shoulders, then your triceps or whatever smaller muscle group.
> 
> If you want to bring up your shoulders, you can do it in reverse.
> 
> Generally, whatever we do first gets the most out of our training. Fatigue builds up over the course of a workout.


KoonJ.  Look up the Weider principles: The Priority One echoes what CJ said and the other ones may address other things for you.


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## Skullcrusher (Jul 11, 2022)

dk8594 said:


> KoonJ.  Look up the Weider principles: The Priority One echoes what CJ said and the other ones may address other things for you.


Is this what you are talking about?








						The Weider Principles | Muscle & Fitness
					

Put these tried-and true training principles, collected by Joe Weider, to use to see an increase in muscle growth now.




					www.muscleandfitness.com


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## RiR0 (Jul 11, 2022)

wotmeworry said:


> Hasn't happened in your experience, maybe.
> 
> Definitely happens.  Example: recovering elbow extensor tendons, need some load in latter part of recovery but cannot handle heavy presses, don't want to miss chest workout for the duration ... so pec deck to hit chest and finish with lighter presses that still stress the (somewhat) fatigued pectorals.
> 
> ...


Goddamn are you dense or retarded? People aren’t that damn special. This has already been explained away. 
Take your feelings and go drink some life extension snake oil
The pecs are fatigued so regardless of your feelings the triceps and delts take over.


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## RiR0 (Jul 11, 2022)

Skullcrusher said:


> Is this what you are talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Such great principles like muscle confusion


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## snake (Jul 11, 2022)

OldeBull1 said:


> I like big to small, compounds before isolation. It might go bench press, military press, chest flyes. Move weight first, then follow up with pump and burn.


This 

One exception is if you are super setting.


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## dk8594 (Jul 11, 2022)

Skullcrusher said:


> Is this what you are talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you wanted to find the originals you’d probably need a VHS player.

 However, I always liked the way Jeff Everson grouped them in this article and they are (at least to my recollection) close to the originals that Joe spoke to in the tapes.



			https://www.joeweider.com/2018/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/lawsofphysiques.pdf


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## Skullcrusher (Jul 11, 2022)

dk8594 said:


> If you wanted to find the originals you’d probably need a VHS player.
> 
> However, I always liked the way Jeff Everson grouped them in this article and they are (at least to my recollection) close to the originals that Joe spoke to in the tapes.
> 
> ...


Okay thank you will check these out.


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## wotmeworry (Jul 11, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Goddamn are you dense or retarded? People aren’t that damn special. This has already been explained away.
> Take your feelings and go drink some life extension snake oil
> The pecs are fatigued so regardless of your feelings the triceps and delts take over.


Ahhh RiR0, showing that your emotional development stopped at 12, again.  A big work on, for you, these maturity lapses.


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## Dex (Jul 11, 2022)

I just read the entire thread. I don't know why, but I did. 

@Skullcrusher I don't know why you are hated so much. Sorry about your accident. Injuries can be difficult and it is good that you are making progress. And if you are over 50 years old, 200lb bench isn't too bad. I'm not very strong at the moment either. I've had some setbacks. I am looking better now and have my kids' teenage friends scared of me and others ask how much I lift. My answer...not much. lol  All we can do is keep improving ourselves. FYI, I'm not big at all. I just have an athletic build and leaned out this summer. I might be one of the smallest on here at 176lbs (mainly due to chick quads).


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## RiR0 (Jul 11, 2022)

wotmeworry said:


> Ahhh RiR0, showing that your emotional development stopped at 12, again.  A big work on, for you, these maturity lapses.


Ah Whatmeworry showing your inability to stfu and keep your uneducated opinion to yourself when you don’t have the slightest clue what you’re talking about. 
A shining example that nad and resveratrol really aren’t neuroprotective from radiation treatment.


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## shackleford (Jul 11, 2022)

🤦‍♂️


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## FlyingPapaya (Jul 11, 2022)

CJ said:


> Well powerlifting is stupid, so there's that!!!  😁


Fight me. I'll bring the singlets


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## FlyingPapaya (Jul 11, 2022)

As much as I love the back and forth I'd suggest you fine modern gentlemen keep it in the flame forum so no bans get handed out lol

Otherwise I can't keep sitting here with me popcorn🤗🙃


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## CJ (Jul 11, 2022)

FlyingPapaya said:


> As much as I love the back and forth I'd suggest you fine modern gentlemen keep it in the flame forum so no bans get handed out lol
> 
> Otherwise I can't keep sitting here with me popcorn🤗🙃


I moved 107 posts of fighting to the Flame Forum. There were more fight posts than actual pertinent thread posts. 🤦‍♂️


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## BigBaldBeardGuy (Jul 11, 2022)

CJ said:


> I moved 107 posts of fighting to the Flame Forum. There were more fight posts than actual pertinent thread posts. 🤦‍♂️



OP did give us his permission to keep fighting though! 🤣



BigBaldBeardGuy said:


> No problem. Can we still fight with each even though you got your question answered? 🤣





Koonj said:


> have at it. No holds barred.


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## FlyingPapaya (Jul 11, 2022)




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## Bridgestone (Jul 11, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Because the actual study is $50


For anyone looking to read through an entire study behind any wiley, elsevier, etc. paywall - type in the DOI# of the article or the URL into sci-hub and you'll be able to read the entire study for free.





__





						Sci-Hub: removing barriers in the way of science
					

The first pirate website in the world to open mass and public access to tens of millions research papers



					www.sci-hub.st
				




the .st changes every few weeks/months as to remain active.


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## TODAY (Jul 11, 2022)

Bridgestone said:


> For anyone looking to read through an entire study behind any wiley, elsevier, etc. paywall - type in the DOI# of the article or the URL into sci-hub and you'll be able to read the entire study for free.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sci-Hub is an incredible resource.

If any of y'all have even a passing interest in research and a dollar to spare, I'd HIGHLY encourage you to donate.


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## Test_subject (Jul 11, 2022)

Bridgestone said:


> For anyone looking to read through an entire study behind any wiley, elsevier, etc. paywall - type in the DOI# of the article or the URL into sci-hub and you'll be able to read the entire study for free.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





TODAY said:


> Sci-Hub is an incredible resource.
> 
> If any of y'all have even a passing interest in research and a dollar to spare, I'd HIGHLY encourage you to donate.


Sci-hub is excellent.  Good call @Bridgestone.

Another option is contacting one of the study authors directly. Most of the time they’ll happily send you an electronic copy of their research.


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## TomJ (Jul 11, 2022)

Bridgestone said:


> For anyone looking to read through an entire study behind any wiley, elsevier, etc. paywall - type in the DOI# of the article or the URL into sci-hub and you'll be able to read the entire study for free.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


holy shit how have i not heard of this yet


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## TODAY (Jul 11, 2022)

TomJ said:


> holy shit how have i not heard of this yet


Because there are well-moneyed interests out there who are devoting a great deal of time and money to combat the Open Science movement.


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