# Marginal Gains



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

Looking back on some old records I see that my weakest body part has added at best, 3/4" over the the last 3+ years. Fuuk calves! If someone told me 3 years ago that it was going to take that long to put on that little, I may have opted out. Hell I never really took them serious until 3 years ago but still did them. You would think I should of had some beginner gains in there but nope, worked for what little I got.

Is there a body part or a lift that you just gave up on?


----------



## maxmuscle1 (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Looking back on some old records I see that my weakest body part has added at best, 3/4" over the the last 3+ years. Fuuk calves! If someone told me 3 years ago that it was going to take that long to put on that little, I may have opted out. Hell I never really took them serious until 3 years ago but still did them. You would think I should of had some beginner gains in there but nope, worked for what little I got.
> 
> Is there a body part or a lift that you just gave up on?



Calves are a ****ing tough, stubborn muscle group!  I agree

Max


----------



## motown1002 (Apr 23, 2019)

I gave up on the d*ck muscle.  lol  Nothing helps that little guy.  

Calves same for me snake.  I gave up on them until about a year ago.  :32 (17):


----------



## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

I gave up on wrist curls many years ago


----------



## maxmuscle1 (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> I gave up on wrist curls many years ago



I can’t give up wrist curls, gotta keep my Jack Game strong!! Lol

Max


----------



## Viduus (Apr 23, 2019)

What do your workouts look like? Weight-wise how would you rate what you’re doing for each excessive vs a max. 

I’m curious since I’ve started training calves separately and I’m still trying to decide what I think “works” though your post appears to say nothing :32 (6):


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

Viduus said:


> What do your workouts look like? Weight-wise how would you rate what you’re doing for each excessive vs a max.
> 
> I’m curious since I’ve started training calves separately and I’m still trying to decide what I think “works” though your post appears to say nothing :32 (6):



What the hell are you saying or asking? I'm lost Vids


----------



## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

I think you lack mind muscle connection,  Snakey.


----------



## Rhino99 (Apr 23, 2019)

I don't even work calves,  they're pretty jacked as it is. 
Chest - different story. Fuk.


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

Rhino99 said:


> I don't even work calves,  they're pretty jacked as it is.
> Chest - different story. Fuk.


I unfriend you rhino!
Yeah, you're the Fuukers I hate. Bet ya walk around in the dead of winter with shorts on, don't ya? Lol


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> I think you lack mind muscle connection,  Snakey.



Well the calves are the furthest from the brain so there maybe some truth in that.


----------



## Long (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Looking back on some old records I see that my weakest body part has added at best, 3/4" over the the last 3+ years. Fuuk calves! If someone told me 3 years ago that it was going to take that long to put on that little, I may have opted out. Hell I never really took them serious until 3 years ago but still did them. You would think I should of had some beginner gains in there but nope, worked for what little I got.
> 
> Is there a body part or a lift that you just gave up on?



When I first started lifting my shoulders were shit. I disliked doing them at all. Frankly I hated doing shoulders. Then I decided that **** it I'm going to do them first, hardest and do more of them. I almost always hit them front, side, rear and pressing movements now. I feel like I cheated if I do less. Shoulders have been my favorite for years now. I also have a deep pain that radiates from both shoulders at night so...

Calves are a bitch. Like abs and forearms. Got to hit them every day, with the feet at all three different angles.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Apr 23, 2019)

Snake just get the damn calf implants and get it over with.


----------



## DieYoungStrong (Apr 23, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> Snake just get the damn calf implants and get it over with.



You've tried everything else. 

It's either implants or learn to swim in sweatpants


----------



## Rhino99 (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> I unfriend you rhino!
> Yeah, you're the Fuukers I hate. Bet ya walk around in the dead of winter with shorts on, don't ya? Lol



Lol, I do.
But I can't take my shirt off, so I'd trade places with you any day bro.


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Looking back on some old records I see that my weakest body part has added at best, 3/4" over the the last 3+ years. Fuuk calves! If someone told me 3 years ago that it was going to take that long to put on that little, I may have opted out. Hell I never really took them serious until 3 years ago but still did them. You would think I should of had some beginner gains in there but nope, worked for what little I got.
> 
> Is there a body part or a lift that you just gave up on?



*Because no one realizes the gastrocnemius is fast-twitch*

I tell everyone here *over and over* to STOP doing all the ****ing high reps, high sets bullshit! *Why does no one listen?*

If you want big calves, then do:

BB Toe raises only
Heavy weight in the 6-8 rep range, 5 sets minimum
Go barefoot or paper-thin soles
Full ROM, fully flexed when heel is high as possiblr
Pause when feet are on the ground, to stop the "spring reflex"
calves 2x a week

The *soleus* is slow-twitch fibers and don't give them the diamond look.

Now you can have huge calves snake, unless you do like I've done recently and forget to hit them at all lol


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> I gave up on wrist curls many years ago



People joke, but only FIVE bodybuilders are ever listed in "best forearms" discussions.

Everybody just hits the brachioradialis and calls it a day. How the hell ANYONE can be proud of forearms that aren't Frank mcGrath or Gunnar Rosbo level is beyond comprehension.

Then again, most people feel proud to *not* be #1 in their undertakings. That I can't understand, either.

How can anyone be happy and not be #1/die trying to be #1 in all areas of their life?


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> *Because no one realizes the gastrocnemius is fast-twitch*
> 
> I tell everyone here *over and over* to STOP doing all the ****ing high reps, high sets bullshit! *Why does no one listen?*
> 
> ...



Hulk did I mention what I do here? Can't say Im doing it wrong if I never put it in the thread now can ya?


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

Long said:


> Calves are a bitch. Like abs and forearms. Got to hit them every day, with the feet at all three different angles.



Well there's plenty of research done on the foot position and it's been shown not to matter.

Glad the shoulder thing worked out for ya, less the pain you got when ya sleep on them. I get that too.


----------



## snake (Apr 23, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> Snake just get the damn calf implants and get it over with.



GoCalfMeFund? Lol


----------



## maxmuscle1 (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Well there's plenty of research done on the foot position and it's been shown not to matter.
> 
> Glad the shoulder thing worked out for ya, less the pain you got when ya sleep on them. I get that too.



It’s so true that after a decade or two of lifting, you can find something new that sparks muscle growth.  All I do is, train, train, train.  Sometimes I find a new perspective and change my workout style completely and it sparks new growth!  BTW- I hate sleeping in my back! But, if I don’t, my arms, hands, shoulders all go completely numb and tingly.  Especially runnning GH and Tren!!

Max


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Hulk did I mention what I do here? Can't say Im doing it wrong if I never put it in the thread now can ya?



Not you snake

A memory of me talking about gastrocnemius being fast-twitch was my basis.

No snake involved at all! Shoulda said so, i just used as a platform to get the word out


----------



## Viduus (Apr 23, 2019)

snake said:


> What the hell are you saying or asking? I'm lost Vids



Hulk touched on it but I was asking what you do for each calf muscle and are you doing high rep or heavy?

I’ve heard conflicting opinions for each muscle. I’m less interested in the science and fast/slow and more curious about what has or hasn’t worked in real people.

For example: seated calf I’ve been doing about 5 sets at 70-80% of max because I’m dealing with cramps in my right calf. If I didn’t have that limitation, I might go higher and do limited reps with more weight but is that better or worse then 15 sets at 60%


----------



## Long (Apr 24, 2019)

snake said:


> Well there's plenty of research done on the foot position and it's been shown not to matter.
> 
> Glad the shoulder thing worked out for ya, less the pain you got when ya sleep on them. I get that too.



Probably true. I'm still doing things like it's two or three decades ago.


----------



## snake (Apr 24, 2019)

I have to say I put more on my calves then my bis but my arms are pushing my upper limits.


----------



## DieYoungStrong (Apr 24, 2019)

Snake threads generally are:

1. Snake complaining about young whippersnappers and what’s wrong with the world today.

OR

2. Snake complaining about his calves and lack of them


----------



## dk8594 (Apr 24, 2019)

Not saying this is you, cause you know what you're doing and have probably tried everything, but I didn't really start to see improvements in my calves until I drastically reduced the weight and really began to focus on the contraction.   I do seated calf raises now a days with 70 lbs (as opposed to days when I used 200 +) and it has paid dividends.


----------



## simplesteve (Apr 24, 2019)

How small are these Calves measurment wise?


----------



## bigdog (Apr 24, 2019)

I gave up cheese curls. I couldn't get the right gains from them so I switched it up to pop tarts again lol..  all bullshit aside I gave up on abs. My loose skin from my obese days hides them anyway. Full em.


----------



## snake (Apr 24, 2019)

simplesteve55021 said:


> How small are these Calves measurment wise?



16 1/2, no pump.


----------



## HollyWoodCole (Apr 24, 2019)

snake said:


> 16 1/2, no pump.


Its odd to me that we can grow our arms so much larger than our calves.


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 24, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> Its odd to me that we can grow our arms so much larger than our calves.



Is that true, though?

Everyone uses calves daily, so they adapt for slow-twitch work.

Giving your calves fast-twitch work (heavy loads in 3-6 rep range) is rarely done by anyone. Look at any forum.

Yet, people give arms plenty of heavy loads and attention. Thus, it appears that "arms grow easier". My hypothesis to that.


----------



## CJ (Apr 24, 2019)

Ballet dancers don't do heavy weight and low reps, and have pretty sweet calf muscles.

But they definitely do full contractions though. 

Just an observation.


----------



## snake (Apr 24, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> Its odd to me that we can grow our arms so much larger than our calves.





hulksmash said:


> Is that true, though?
> 
> Everyone uses calves daily, so they adapt for slow-twitch work.
> 
> ...



To put his to bed from a BB stand point; neck, calves and bi's should be the same.


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 24, 2019)

snake said:


> To put his to bed from a BB stand point; neck, calves and bi's should be the same.



Clarify "should be the same". It confused me lol

I assume you mean they should all be adapted to light loads?


----------



## snake (Apr 24, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> Clarify "should be the same". It confused me lol
> 
> I assume you mean they should all be adapted to light loads?



No size measurements


----------



## Long (Apr 24, 2019)

snake said:


> No size measurements



Yeah absolutely. When those three are balanced everything looks better.


----------



## Long (Apr 24, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Ballet dancers don't do heavy weight and low reps, and have pretty sweet calf muscles.
> 
> But they definitely do full contractions though.
> 
> Just an observation.



They also do about a billion reps every day.


----------



## CJ (Apr 24, 2019)

Long said:


> They also do about a billion reps every day.



Exactly, so maybe high volume/frequency in the extreme ends of range of motion is worth considering. 

I've been a member of the 'calves every day' club for a few months now, and they definitely have grown. Still look like kickstands, but now bigger kickstands.


----------



## snake (Apr 24, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Exactly, so maybe high volume/frequency in the extreme ends of range of motion is worth considering.
> 
> I've been a member of the 'calves every day' club for a few months now, and they definitely have grown. Still look like kickstands, but now bigger kickstands.



I assume you taped them before and now. What was the gains and in what time frame?


----------



## HollyWoodCole (Apr 24, 2019)

snake said:


> I assume you taped them before and now. What was the gains and in what time frame?


If this guy put on 2" Snake is going to come un-fukkin-glued


----------



## Viduus (Apr 25, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Ballet dancers don't do heavy weight and low reps, and have pretty sweet calf muscles.
> 
> But they definitely do full contractions though.
> 
> Just an observation.



Thats a really good point. Also to state the obvious we’re doing maybe 30-60 extra reps on calves a few times a week. That’s a very small percentage when you figure we do thousands of reps on any given day. Are we really stressing them at all?

30-50 heavy sets for biceps is a decent percentage of our normal daily use. I probably go through a few days a week we’re the heaviest thing I curl is a gallon of milk or a laptop case.


----------



## CJ (Apr 25, 2019)

snake said:


> I assume you taped them before and now. What was the gains and in what time frame?



I didn't, but they have a much more angled muscle edge, if that makes sense. It's not as rounded, has sharper edges.


----------



## Jin (Apr 25, 2019)

All obese people have massive calves.


----------



## snake (Apr 25, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> I didn't, but they have a much more angled muscle edge, if that makes sense. It's not as rounded, has sharper edges.



Yeah I'm a numbers guy. I need to quantify those gain.


----------



## CJ (Apr 25, 2019)

snake said:


> Yeah I'm a numbers guy. I need to quantify those gain.



Me too, usually. But I do want to believe that there's hope! :32 (18):

I know I have an old set of measurements in one of my numerous notebooks. I'll have to dig it out.


----------



## Long (Apr 25, 2019)

Jin said:


> All obese people have massive calves.



It's so many times your weight each step when you walk and way more when you run.

Soooooo high volume, daily, heavy weight?
Arnold did daily's, angles, seated, foot position, high weight, donkeys and he went from no calves to pretty damn good calves.


----------



## Bobbyloads (Apr 27, 2019)

I’m not a pro just a year in but I never realized the importance of shoulders nor did I work on them for like then first 6 months now I love to do them as well that’s when I really started noticing my arms that I’m actually making progress now I hit them twice a week but I’m having issues with my rear delts can’t seem to activate them to get the feeling of working just them. I guess need more time put in. 











Long said:


> When I first started lifting my shoulders were shit. I disliked doing them at all. Frankly I hated doing shoulders. Then I decided that **** it I'm going to do them first, hardest and do more of them. I almost always hit them front, side, rear and pressing movements now. I feel like I cheated if I do less. Shoulders have been my favorite for years now. I also have a deep pain that radiates from both shoulders at night so...
> 
> Calves are a bitch. Like abs and forearms. Got to hit them every day, with the feet at all three different angles.


----------



## Bobbyloads (Apr 27, 2019)

For me it’s legs in general had surgery on both knees and they aint the same so I feel like every time I do squats or any rough work out on the legs they start popping in hurting bad.


----------



## hulksmash (Apr 27, 2019)

CJ275 said:


> Ballet dancers don't do heavy weight and low reps, and have pretty sweet calf muscles.
> 
> But they definitely do full contractions though.
> 
> Just an observation.



The issue is defining "pretty sweet".

Went to the ballet around Christmas. They all had above-average size in calves, but we would say they have "small" calves.

18" is probably the minimum for "big calves" for 5'8-5'11 height. You see *everyone* saying "more reps, more reps" yet only a few have "big calves". 

Even Arnold admitted to using very heavy weight, albeit with a lot of reps. *Very heavy weight+full ROM+pause when feet are flat* is the key. 

Light weight wastes time AND changes your gastrocnemius to slow-twitch fibers, which is injurious due to its purpose of being "explosive".


----------



## Long (Apr 29, 2019)

Bobbyloads said:


> I’m not a pro just a year in but I never realized the importance of shoulders nor did I work on them for like then first 6 months now I love to do them as well that’s when I really started noticing my arms that I’m actually making progress now I hit them twice a week but I’m having issues with my rear delts can’t seem to activate them to get the feeling of working just them. I guess need more time put in.



Lying rears. A lot of them.


----------



## Jin (Apr 30, 2019)

Long said:


> Lying rears. A lot of them.



Please explain the movement. I’d like to try them.


----------



## Long (Apr 30, 2019)

Jin said:


> Please explain the movement. I’d like to try them.



Lay down on a bench or couch on your side. Let your upper arm hang down across your chest to the floor with dumbbell in hand. In a very controlled movement with a straight arm lift the weight in an arched movement. From the floor, out in front of you, to above you. It isolates the rear delt far better than something like bent rears in my opinion. 
It doesn't take much weight at first unless you are a beast. 

They are time consuming and I used to switch them out for bent rears when I was in a hurry.


----------



## Beserker (May 1, 2019)

I can vouch for that, really isolates the rear head... used to be a staple.  I first used them years ago to help rehab a torn labrum, then stuck with them.  Doesn’t take heavy weights get a good pump on this one.


----------



## gymrat827 (May 2, 2019)

Long said:


> Lay down on a bench or couch on your side. Let your upper arm hang down across your chest to the floor with dumbbell in hand. In a very controlled movement with a straight arm lift the weight in an arched movement. From the floor, out in front of you, to above you. It isolates the rear delt far better than something like bent rears in my opinion.
> It doesn't take much weight at first unless you are a beast.
> 
> They are time consuming and I used to switch them out for bent rears when I was in a hurry.



Ill give them a shot when i actually have more than 40 min in the gym.  9wk old little girl has me going in every direction than the one i intend.


----------



## HollyWoodCole (May 2, 2019)

My favorite way to hit the rear delt is the cable crossover.  Doesn't take much weight at all, 10-15lbs will kick your ass.


----------

