# Minimum effective dose for NPP/Test cycle



## cavorite (Dec 8, 2021)

My first cycle was 500mg/week Test E and it went pretty smoothly.

I'd like to gain more mass, so I think the next logical step up is Test/NPP for the second cycle.

Nandrolone seems to have more sides than Test, so I want to keep the dose low. Is 250mg/week Test + 250mg/week enough to produce results? Should the Test be higher than the Nandrolone? (Also, does it matter if I'm using Test E but Nandrolone P)?

I rarely used an AI on my Test cycle, but I see a lot of people recommend starting it from day 1 on Nandrolone. Is that a good idea? I have the same question about Cabergoline. My usual preference is to hold ancillaries in reserve until sides appear. Actually, if sides appear I would probably just abort the cycle.

I'm going to cruise after the cycle – I'm aware that it's difficult to PCT from 19 Nor.

Any glaring problems with this cycle? Anything I'm missing?


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## wsmwannabe (Dec 8, 2021)

I would start running P5P the same day as you start your nandrolone @ 100-200 mg/day and you should be able to shelf the caber. As far as one being higher than the other, you have to play around with the dosages a little bit yourself to see what work best for you.

Me personally, I didn't see anything off of 300/200 test/npp so I had to bump it up. But it may work well for you at those dosages.

As far as the esters you're running, it'll be fine. I have always run test C even when using other compounds with short esters.

AI usage/dosage should be determined by blood work OR if you notice BP creeping up or spicy nips, you could try using it then at a low dose. But blood work is always important. If you didn't need AI on test only, you most likely would not need it for test/nand.

How long is the cycle? What will your cruise dose be?


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## CJ (Dec 8, 2021)

Nandrolone only aromatize at 20% the rate of testosterone, so if you rarely needed an AI on Test, it shouldn't be an issue here.

NPP should be an EOD injection frequency, or a MWF at minimum. Just making sure you are aware.

I've never run Test higher than a nandrolone, no issues. I've run it as high as 400/400 and my prolactin was fine. I'd still get some caber, just in case. It lasts awhile, so you can sell/trade it if you don't need it. 

That's just me though. You're your own experiment. Just be prepared if things go south.


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## cavorite (Dec 8, 2021)

wsmwannabe said:


> How long is the cycle? What will your cruise dose be?



8-12 weeks is what I read most places. Depends how it goes.

250mg/week, which is probably above "cruise". The pharmacies here carry Testoviron E 250 amps, so I just use those (125 E3.5 days).

They also carry Aveed/Nebido (Test undencanoate). I'd like to switch to those at some point, but I'm concerned about keeping levels stable. I need to do more research on that subject.


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## cavorite (Dec 8, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> NPP should be an EOD injection frequency, or a MWF at minimum. Just making sure you are aware.



Yes, thank you. I was planning to do daily. Shallow IM has become my preferred injection method since I read about backfilling slin pins.


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## shackleford (Dec 8, 2021)

cavorite said:


> They also carry Aveed/Nebido (Test undencanoate). I'd like to switch to those at some point, but I'm concerned about keeping levels stable. I need to do more research on that subject.


came across this, thought it might help.





						How To TRT/Cruise on Test Undecanoate (and why it's better)
					

PREAMBLE Most people seem to cruise or get TRT treatment using Test C or Test E. Typically that means pinning twice a week (every 3.5 days) for a reasonably consistent release of the drug (50mg E3.5D swings from ~7.5-~12.5mg of test released daily.)   For cruisers on UGLs, that means no long...




					canadianjuicemonsters.net


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## wsmwannabe (Dec 8, 2021)

cavorite said:


> 250mg/week, which is probably above "cruise". The pharmacies here carry Testoviron E 250 amps, so I just use those (125 E3.5 days).


It is above "TRT" but cruise is just whatever minimum dose you run year around, so 250 is absolutely a cruise dose if you don't go below that.


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## Send0 (Dec 8, 2021)

shackleford said:


> came across this, thought it might help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this, except you can actually go 14 days just fine. If you do every 14 days, then the peaks/troughs look just like if you were shooting cyp/enan every 3.5 days

Here's a screenshot... the big spike in the middle is a front load to get undecanoate to match the amount not test released by the enanthate ester. You'll see the peaks and troughs are close to identical between the two esters. 😁


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## Jonjon (Dec 8, 2021)

I dont get any sides from nandrolone. Nothing wrong with having some stuff on hand in case, but you should be fine.

I’d run the test at 500 and npp at 250 to start

I take 300mg p5p a day. I wouldn’t take caber personally


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## GreatGunz (Dec 10, 2021)

*Good read*


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## sharkbaitwhohaha (Dec 11, 2021)

Jonjon said:


> I dont get any sides from nandrolone. Nothing wrong with having some stuff on hand in case, but you should be fine.
> 
> I’d run the test at 500 and npp at 250 to start
> 
> I take 300mg p5p a day. I wouldn’t take caber personally



What is p5p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cavorite (Dec 11, 2021)

sharkbaitwhohaha said:


> What is p5p
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah I had to google that.






						Amazon.com: Country Life P-5-P (Pyridoxal Phosphate) 50 mg, 100-Count : Health & Household
					

Buy Country Life P-5-P (Pyridoxal Phosphate) 50 mg, 100-Count on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



					www.amazon.com
				












						(PDF) The Role of Vitamin B6 in Reducing Serum Prolactin in Comparison to Cabergoline
					

PDF | Hyperprolactinemia is a common endocrine disorder of hypothalamic-pituitary axis. It affect about 4-17% of women in reproductive age and about... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## Skullcrusher (Dec 11, 2021)

Test I have mostly run at TRT doses except while on a cycle.

NPP/Deca I have felt extremely mild benefits from as low as 40mg 3x a week, mostly in my joints. At 80mg 3x a week I get some strength increase.

Seems most beneficial to me when Test and NPP are roughly the same. 120mg NPP 3x a week + 125mg Test 3x a week. Probably everyone is different.

I take P-5-P and caber but the sides are just so shitty for me that it's not even worth it anymore. Switching to test and dbol only.


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## cavorite (Dec 17, 2021)

So far, so good, after a week. But one unexpected mental side:

Pretty much immediately after I started NPP I started having suspicions about my gf, which is something that never concerned me before. And it's really dumb, paranoid, highly improbable suspicions that would sound ridiculous if I asked about them.

I'm bringing it up because whenever I've read about this it's from someone taking Tren, not Nandrolone. Or is this a common issue with 19-Nors?

It could always be placebo effect, but I wasn't even aware it was a side. 

Not a major problem, I'm just curious. My mood overall is better if anything.


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## Jonjon (Dec 17, 2021)

Or it could just be a heightened sense of awareness… trust your senses!


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## cavorite (Dec 17, 2021)

I don’t really care if it’s true honestly. I’m more wondering if a lab would use tren in place of nandrolone, but they both seem fairly inexpensive.

It’s such a bizarrely specific mental effect - it’d be interesting to know the medical/chemical reason for the reaction.


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## Send0 (Dec 17, 2021)

cavorite said:


> I don’t really care if it’s true honestly. I’m more wondering if a lab would use tren in place of nandrolone, but they both seem fairly inexpensive.
> 
> It’s such a bizarrely specific mental effect - it’d be interesting to know the medical/chemical reason for the reaction.


Tren is much more expensive for the raw than nandrolone. I doubt anyone would use Tren in place of nandrolones... It just wouldn't make fiscal sense.


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## StayPewPewNu (Dec 17, 2021)

cavorite said:


> So far, so good, after a week. But one unexpected mental side:
> 
> Pretty much immediately after I started NPP I started having suspicions about my gf, which is something that never concerned me before. And it's really dumb, paranoid, highly improbable suspicions that would sound ridiculous if I asked about them.
> 
> ...


I've never ran npp or deca, but anything I've ever read seems to point that some of the mental sides from nandrolone are very similar to those of tren.


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## wsmwannabe (Dec 17, 2021)

I get the same mental sides from nand and tren. MENT alleviated all mental sides from both of the them though


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## Iamnatty (Dec 18, 2021)

cavorite said:


> So far, so good, after a week. But one unexpected mental side:
> 
> Pretty much immediately after I started NPP I started having suspicions about my gf, which is something that never concerned me before. And it's really dumb, paranoid, highly improbable suspicions that would sound ridiculous if I asked about them.
> 
> ...


I get alot of mental sides from deca.  I don't like it


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## cavorite (Mar 20, 2022)

I finished my first NPP/Test cycle a few weeks ago and added a little mast at the end. Now I look pretty similar to where I started.

Is this from mast, or were most of my gains just water? I’m hoping there was some recomp and I didn’t just waste an entire cycle.

My training was solid but NPP really killed my appetite, so calories are probably the issue. How bad did that screw me for adding muscle? I did get plenty of protein from shakes and bars.


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## Intel.imperitive (Mar 20, 2022)

Beware cos I'm just a noob, but I've actually ran this cycle with some average results. I ran 400 Test 300 NPP. 

You could run 200mg each, even 150mg and it's still a "cycle". 

Since you've already done 500mg test, and I assume you want to gain just as much or more, 400 test + 300 NPP will be plenty. Just like mine. I wish I was more responsible like you, I ran Tbol along with it at 40mg and it was my first cycle.


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## cavorite (Mar 20, 2022)

I already ran the cycle and my gains disappeared when I stopped. I’m trying to figure out where I screwed up. 

I looked like my photo on cycle but I flattened out a lot when I came off NPP and started mast.


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## cavorite (Mar 21, 2022)

sorry to bump my own post. hoping a vet will chime in


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## TomJ (Mar 21, 2022)

cavorite said:


> I already ran the cycle and my gains disappeared when I stopped. I’m trying to figure out where I screwed up.
> 
> I looked like my photo on cycle but I flattened out a lot when I came off NPP and started mast.


One or more of the following 3 things caused this. 

1. The gear was fake or heavily underdosed

2. Your diet plan wasn't sufficient, but even if you were low in calories, so long as you weren't crazy low you should have noticed some sort of recomp. 

3. Your training is insufficient. 

We can help more if you can tell us how detailed you tracked your meals and what your calories/macros were. As well as what you're training looked like. 

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


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## GSgator (Mar 21, 2022)

So you lost all your gains ? How was your diet and training post cycle? Did you do a proper PCT did blood work indicate that you fully recovered? Those factors would play a huge roll on why you lost your gains. How long was your cycle i see in the post 8-12wks ?


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## cavorite (Mar 22, 2022)

TomJ said:


> One or more of the following 3 things caused this.
> 
> 1. The gear was fake or heavily underdosed
> 
> ...



Thank you

1. unlikely. i got the nandrolone mental sides and looked good on cycle.

2. it was probably this. my diet was easy to track. i'm on a remote island (with no kitchen) so I got most of my calories and protein from bars, shakes, and milk. my carbs came from oatmeal. my BMR is 2000 so i made that my floor. i forgot to account for the fact i burned a lot of calories from walking miles every days and ocean swimming, etc.

there probably was some recomp but not nearly enough to justify running this cycle. i had a hard time with NPP so it stings to have it wasted like this. 

3. i did stronglifts my first cycle and switched to a volume workout this time. i don't know % of my 1RM but I do these at the max I can handle and still complete the reps. super basic i think.

PUSH
5 x 10 dumbbell bench 
5 x 10 incline bench
5 x 10 pec deck
5 x 10 overhead press
5 x 10 assisted dips
various isolation for delts, triceps, etc

PULL
5 x 10 dumbbell pullovers
5 x 10 bent over row
5 x 10 pull down
5 x 10 assisted pull ups
5 x 10 shrugs
isolation for traps, biceps, etc

LEGS
5 x 10 squat
5 x 10 leg press
5 x 10 quad leg extension
5 x 10 hamstring curl
5 x 10 hip thrust
abs


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## cavorite (Mar 22, 2022)

GSgator said:


> So you lost all your gains ? How was your diet and training post cycle? Did you do a proper PCT did blood work indicate that you fully recovered? Those factors would play a huge roll on why you lost your gains. How long was your cycle i see in the post 8-12wks ?


 
BNC. i should've mentioned. Cycle was about 12 weeks


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## Jonjon (Mar 22, 2022)

cavorite said:


> 2. it was probably this. my diet was easy to track. i'm on a remote island (with no kitchen) so I got most of my calories and protein from bars, shakes, and milk.



There’s a big problem. If you’re gonna build you gotta supply the raw materials. Bars and shakes don’t come close to real meat. I thi k if you fix this, next time will be better.


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## Intel.imperitive (Mar 22, 2022)

Jonjon said:


> There’s a big problem. If you’re gonna build you gotta supply the raw materials. Bars and shakes don’t come close to real meat. I thi k if you fix this, next time will be better.


I thought protein was protein. And calories are calories. Is it because of nutrients and shit inside meat?


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## cavorite (Mar 22, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> I thought protein was protein. And calories are calories. Is it because of nutrients and shit inside meat?



i think protein is still protein – it's just not ideal to get it this way. 

it was dumb of me to start a cycle here for a number of reasons. i mostly want to make sure I don't have a major error in my understanding of diet or training before moving forward.


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## Dsantos1987 (Sep 24, 2022)

Jonjon said:


> I dont get any sides from nandrolone. Nothing wrong with having some stuff on hand in case, but you should be fine.
> 
> I’d run the test at 500 and npp at 250 to start
> 
> I take 300mg p5p a day. I wouldn’t take caber personally


P5P works just fine man 150MG does it for me I'll adjust if need be but 50MG capsules x3 day seems be working fine.. caber is hard to find at times and always sold out can be expensive not cheapest drug not mention harsh drug If im correct a lot more then p5p that's for sure


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