# Do you train to failure?



## Adking29 (Sep 21, 2019)

Curious with everyones success, or lack thereof, with training to failure.

When Mike Matthews posted about this topic last week I thought, "I train to failure in all but my first set"

But, I've thought about it and went to the gym a few times since his post.
I found that I wasn't training to absolute failure but to technical failure (or can't do another rep without form breaking down).
Nearly every set was to or on-the-brink of technical failure which is way more than what studies show to be most optimal (the studies quoted by Mike Matthews).

Anyways, I've attached an except, from my short discussion with Mike, of my position and his response.

Where do you stand? How do you train?


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## Adking29 (Sep 21, 2019)

Adking29 said:


> .
> 
> Where do you stand? How do you train?




When you aren't on stuff?


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## dk8594 (Sep 21, 2019)

Yes, I train to failure.

I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure.  I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.

My criticism of proponents of those who recommend stopping 2-3 reps short of failure has always been how the hell do you know where failure is unless you reach it?  Guess?  Stop when it gets uncomfortable?  

If I remember correctly, though, you're also the guy who likes to workout with rubber bands.  I do not recommend failure with rubber bands.  The duration and lactic acid build up of going to failure with bands would make any grown man cry.

EDIT: Just looked up Mike Matthews.  If it makes you feel any better, I doubt he goes to failure (or has a leg day)


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## Spongy (Sep 21, 2019)

Technical failure with very few exceptions.  Waaaaay to many people, including many on this forum, are overtraining and not giving themselves the opportunity to grow.


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## Spongy (Sep 21, 2019)

dk8594 said:


> Yes, I train to failure.
> 
> I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure.  I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.
> 
> ...



You're not going to true failure if you are maintaining your form.  I think you and I are on the same page regarding drop sets to go beyond technical failure, etc.


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## dk8594 (Sep 21, 2019)

Spongy said:


> You're not going to true failure if you are maintaining your form.  I think you and I are on the same page regarding drop sets to go beyond technical failure, etc.



Good point.

To clarify for OP, I would stop curls when I can no longer do elbow flexion; not when my delts/ lower back give out.


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## Seeker (Sep 21, 2019)

lol there's been a thread on how to effectively use cheat reps. But that is another thread. My answer is, and this has been thoroughly discussed with another member who also wrote a great thread on failure, the closer your reps are to failure, the more effective they are at building muscle.  Mr. Mathews is one person I'll avoid on IG


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## Adking29 (Sep 21, 2019)

dk8594 said:


> Yes, I train to failure.
> 
> I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure.  I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.
> 
> ...



Yes, I'm that guy. lol I think the assumption is low-rep workouts can't be achieved with resistant bands. However, with the three packs of bands I had, each pack had about 140lbs worth of bands, I had low-rep workouts on chest, back and shoulders.

yeah, Mike dosen't really go to failure because he thinks it does more harm than good. And the studies seem to back him up


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## Adking29 (Sep 21, 2019)

Seeker said:


> the closer your reps are to failure, the more effective they are at building muscle



I have the same sentiment

The question is, have you gone too far if you reach absolute failure? Or technical failure? Have you done more harm than good, for instance. Are you crossing a threshold where the risk and reward ratio reaches the inflection point


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## Seeker (Sep 21, 2019)

Adking29 said:


> I have the same sentiment
> 
> The question is, have you gone too far if you reach absolute failure? Or technical failure?



the answer is no you have not gone too far.  you do not have to sacrifice form to go to absolute failure. As DK, suggested,  you can use drop sets, pause sets, and other variations. progression is always key.. partnered with tension and volume and you now have a formula for successful muscle growth.


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## Adking29 (Sep 21, 2019)

Seeker said:


> the answer is no you have not gone too far.  you do not have to sacrifice form to go to absolute failure. As DK, suggested,  you can use drop sets, pause sets, and other variations. progression is always key.. partnered with tension and volume and you now have a formula for successful muscle growth.



I like your answer

Wonder what others think...


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## Spongy (Sep 21, 2019)

Adking29 said:


> I like your answer
> 
> Wonder what others think...



This guy agrees 100%.  Progressive overload FTW


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## Straight30weight (Sep 22, 2019)

Unless it’s a warm up set, yes to failure.


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## snake (Sep 22, 2019)

Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4. 

Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.

The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.


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## Spongy (Sep 22, 2019)

snake said:


> Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4.
> 
> Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.
> 
> The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.



Very good point Snake.  Depends on goals, age, methods, etc...

I'm still not convinced everyone that says they train to true failure actually understands the difference between that and technical failure.


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## dk8594 (Sep 22, 2019)

Spongy said:


> Very good point Snake.  Depends on goals, age, methods, etc...
> 
> I'm still not convinced everyone that says they train to true failure actually understands the difference between that and technical failure.



Can you add a little definition here?  

In my mind, absolute failure means my heart stops, but I think you are defining it somewhat differently


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## Spongy (Sep 22, 2019)

dk8594 said:


> Can you add a little definition here?
> 
> In my mind, absolute failure means my heart stops, but I think you are defining it somewhat differently



Technical = form breaks down, can no longer perform rep

True failure = form breaks, rep fails, other methods are used to continue (drop sets, etc).

I take every working set to technical failure, not true failure.


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## Spongy (Sep 22, 2019)

so for me, for instance...  True failure would be along the lines of DC training followed immediately by a drop set.

heavy ass weight 6-10 reps to technical failure

rack weight, 15 deep breaths

same weight AMRAP

15 deep breaths (racked weight)

same weight AMRAP follow immediately by a drop set that has 2-3 drops


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## BigSwolePump (Sep 22, 2019)

Personally, I don't train to failure, if failure means that I can't do another rep at any cost. I am big on form. Once you lose form and start bending and stretching outside of the intended plain of the exercise, you are opening yourself to injury. God knows that I have had my share of injury and at my age, I am not putting myself in that situation anymore. I have two awesome torn pecs that cost me over a year of training between the two because I was a get it up at all cost kinda guy. No need for that shit IMO. Live and learn


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## Adking29 (Sep 22, 2019)

snake said:


> Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4.
> 
> Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.
> 
> The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.



very good take on it, thanks


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## Adking29 (Sep 22, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Unless it’s a warm up set, yes to failure.




you BB or PL?


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## Seeker (Sep 22, 2019)

there is no training to failure in powerlifting. Not in any of the popular programs I've followed


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## dk8594 (Sep 22, 2019)

Seeker said:


> there is no training to failure in powerlifting. Not in any of the popular programs I've followed



I have always wondered that. Can you expand on why not?


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## Seeker (Sep 22, 2019)

one reason I can say is that powerlifting is using heavy loads of weights,  focused 3 main compound lifts. Volume and intensity dont neccesarily go well together. fatigue can settle in pretty quickly.


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## Straight30weight (Sep 22, 2019)

Adking29 said:


> you BB or PL?


Just a gym rat.


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## snake (Sep 22, 2019)

Seeker said:


> Volume and intensity dont neccesarily go well together. fatigue can settle in pretty quickly.


Absolutely .That's the reason right there that only one set was to failure in what I what I did.


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## gymrat827 (Sep 23, 2019)

i do & i dont...

depending on lots of diff things....I go to 90/95% of failure and stop there.  Once get good muscle breakdown ill stop


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## HollyWoodCole (Sep 23, 2019)

Working to failure is a young man's game.  

I'm too old and won't risk the injury, plus I always work out alone.  I can go to failure on bench etc. due to obvious safety issues.


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## Seeker (Sep 23, 2019)

View attachment 8542


I would definitely rep her to failure


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## BigSwolePump (Sep 24, 2019)

Seeker said:


> View attachment 8542
> 
> 
> I would definitely rep her to failure



Speaking of reps...Ive got a nice shiny positive rep for nudz of that one


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## BRICKS (Sep 24, 2019)

Spongy said:


> Technical = form breaks down, can no longer perform rep
> 
> True failure = form breaks, rep fails, other methods are used to continue (drop sets, etc).
> 
> I take every working set to technical failure, not true failure.



This is typically how I train.  Say 4 working sets.  Three will be to technical failure, 4th will be a drop set.


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## HollyWoodCole (Sep 24, 2019)

BRICKS said:


> This is typically how I train.  Say 4 working sets.  Three will be to technical failure, 4th will be a drop set.


It was five sets on squats last night but same exact thing.  

The young man that came with me asked if I was going to failure....I asked him if putting yourself in a position to where your legs can't move and you have 400lbs+ on your back is a good idea....he got it.


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## hit4me (Nov 27, 2019)

TRUE failure means you fail in all three phases of the movement - not just concentric, but static and eccentric as well. Very few people do this and it is extremely difficult to truly achieve without a training partner, IMO.

I also think you can maintain form while doing this, given that you are not using momentum to begin with. Controlled concentric, pause for a static hold, controlled eccentric.  If your form breaks, practice the movement yo build your engrams so that your form stays tight.


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## Texan69 (Nov 27, 2019)

You can train like my girl and stop as soon as it gets heavy lol.

but I mix it up sometimes I will train to failure or even utilize a spotter and get some forced reps in. Or utilize drop sets, rest pauses and on the rare occasion a chest rep once I hit technical failure. I notice the best results when I do one set to technical failure per exercise (3-4 per muscle group for large and 2-3 for smaller) the other sets are difficult but not necessarily to failure. I have a tendency to overtrain.


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## Long (Nov 27, 2019)

Depends on what muscle group and what my goal is for that muscle group. 

Take chest. When I was trying to grow it fast and increase my max absolutely. Assisted reps past failure for sure helped me achieve my goals.

I'm doing lighter weight at the moment and I think 4 second negatives with a good strong positive on with a tight back contraction while bending the bar seems to be far more effective at overall pec growth than heavy weight and training to failure. 

I don't often go to failure on deadlifts because I think it is counterproductive. 

Muscles like the forearms, biceps and calves that already get used a lot in the day to day I think require training to failure for growth. One of my favorites for biceps is cheat curls and lining up the dumbbells and running the rack pyramid style. 

That said I did experience growth using the 8x8 program and doing body drag and wall curls Vince Gironda style. 

Perhaps the sum of my wisdom on the matter is a lot of shit works and doing the same thing over and over will have diminishing positive results.


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## tinymk (Nov 27, 2019)

I generally do not train to failure and if I do it will be on 1 set out of several
of the day.


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## Underdog12 (Dec 25, 2019)

Honestly I don't know there seems to be so much diversity in how people train and all techniques get you bigger.
Now the smartest way in my opinion is to not go all out like Ronnie Coleman for example his body is falling to peices.
My advice
do it till your form breaks down with a weight that's not comfortable
anyone disagree with me


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## CJ (Dec 25, 2019)

Underdog12 said:


> My advice
> do it till your form breaks down with a weight that's not comfortable
> anyone disagree with me



I wouldn't want to do a Squat or Deadlift with my form broken down. 

I'd say the safety of the movement has a lot to do with it. Squats.. Stay away from failure/form break down. Leg Press.. Get close, maybe hit failure. Knee Extensions... Go until your quads are going to explode, you'll be fine.


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## Jonjon (Aug 17, 2021)

Resurrecting an old thread…

I wonder how much is too much on failure… like how many sets to failure for a body part in one session. I always set out to do one set to failure per exercise, and do 4 different exercises for the body part I’m hitting. I’ll do a few warm up/pump sets. But I end up doing more failure sets because I don’t feel like I’ve accomplished anything unless I’m smoked.

Failure to me is last rep I can do with good form, then employ drop set or rest pause.

Stimulate don’t annihilate is hard for me to comprehend. Especially with my arms, because I’m trying so hard to get them to grow…


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## CJ (Aug 17, 2021)

Jonjon said:


> Resurrecting an old thread…
> 
> I wonder how much is too much on failure… like how many sets to failure for a body part in one session. I always set out to do one set to failure per exercise, and do 4 different exercises for the body part I’m hitting. I’ll do a few warm up/pump sets. But I end up doing more failure sets because I don’t feel like I’ve accomplished anything unless I’m smoked.
> 
> ...


Are you able to match, or exceed what you did in the prior workout, either by adding weight and/or reps most sessions? 

If not, probably too much, try backing off a bit. 

If so, keep on going until you need a rest, then take a light week or week off. You just don't want to have to do this too frequently.


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## Jonjon (Aug 17, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> Are you able to match, or exceed what you did in the prior workout, either by adding weight and/or reps most sessions?
> 
> If not, probably too much, try backing off a bit.
> 
> If so, keep on going until you need a rest, then take a light week or week off. You just don't want to have to do this too frequently.


That’s a good gauge. Thanks for the advice


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## CJ (Aug 18, 2021)

Jonjon said:


> That’s a good gauge. Thanks for the advice


I'm pretty much the same way, last set to failure. If I'm in a calorie surplus, I'll add in the rest pause sets, or some other intensity technique.

I've tried every set to failure (when safe) but the drop off from set to set was too great, plus you get worn down quickly.

That's just me though, your mileage may vary.


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## FearThaGear (Aug 18, 2021)

I don't have a gym partner these days and haven't for quite some time so no, I don't go to complete failure on any free weight exercise outside of curls.

I do however go to failure on my working sets of machine exercises where there is a safety catch of some sort to keep the weight from falling on me.

Like several others have mentioned, I also do drop sets and supersets which puts me very near absolute failure but that's as far as I go because a one rep max these days is just asking for an injury in my opinion.


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## Adking29 (Aug 18, 2021)

Jonjon said:


> Stimulate don’t annihilate is hard for me to comprehend. Especially with my arms, because I’m trying so hard to get them to grow…


I like “stimulate don’t annihilate”. It’s catchy and I’ve heard that before. haha

Maybe just maybe annihilating underdeveloped muscles puts them further behind compared to muscles that you just stimulate, for reason we are taking about on this thread. So, it goes back to this: at what point does a lifter hit negative marginal benefit? (Negative marginal benefit is adapted from negative marginal return. I studied economics)

of course, as this thread makes obvious, there is so much nuance to what does failure mean. It depends on the person, exercise, goal… 
What is stimulate for you maybe annihilate  for me

So, the solution for anyone trying to figure out if they should train to failure (whatever that means to you) is to experiment for yourself. Try different training methods, from the trendy routines to the ones on the fringes 

For me, after experimenting with various routines for 8+ years, I like Pavel Tsatsouline’s school of thought. That being, a simple and minimalist workout, doing less than what most people do now days, doing the opposite of CT Fletcher 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAEx9WDNKg


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## BRICKS (Aug 18, 2021)

Adking29 said:


> I like “stimulate don’t annihilate”. It’s catchy and I’ve heard that before. haha
> 
> Maybe just maybe annihilating underdeveloped muscles puts them further behind compared to muscles that you just stimulate, for reason we are taking about on this thread. So, it goes back to this: at what point does a lifter hit negative marginal benefit? (Negative marginal benefit is adapted from negative marginal return. I studied economics)
> 
> ...


Knowing the answer to your question of "what point does a lifter hit marginal benefits" os the difference between the advanced bodybuilder and the intermediate.  The advanced knows when enough is enough and when to double down.  Listen to your body, work the muscle not the weight.


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## Jonjon (Aug 18, 2021)

Adking29 said:


> I like “stimulate don’t annihilate”. It’s catchy and I’ve heard that before. haha
> 
> Maybe just maybe annihilating underdeveloped muscles puts them further behind compared to muscles that you just stimulate, for reason we are taking about on this thread. So, it goes back to this: at what point does a lifter hit negative marginal benefit? (Negative marginal benefit is adapted from negative marginal return. I studied economics)
> 
> ...


Lee Haney used to say that…

I like to stimulate… then, annihilate 🤣


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## Skullcrusher (Aug 18, 2021)

I believe in stimulate, not annihilate.

I do occassionally take some sets to true failure.

Like triceps in my most recent workout.

For myself, the last reps should hurt to finish.

If too many final reps hurt I might not be able to finish.

I mostly ignore the pain and finish any damn way.

If not enough final reps hurt then I'm pissing in the wind.

Was doing 3 sets of 10 on just about everything for a long time.

There were 2 lifts where I did sets of 25 reps. Leg extensions and trap bar shrugs.

Those are the two muscles that got the most growth.

Maybe because it was more pain, more TUT, or both...not really sure.

Decided to do my first/main lift 3 x 10 and the rest 2 x 25.

Going to go like this for a few months to see what happens.


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## BrotherIron (Aug 18, 2021)

I'll train to failure at times on small muscle groups, isolation movements... machine movements.  I do not train to failure on multi-joint compound movements.


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## MrRogers (Aug 30, 2021)

Interesting replies. Ive always felt like a set is made in the final reps, getting in your head and pushing just beyond what you think you're capable of. 

To the guys that don't train to failure, are you always increasing the weight? How do you achieve progressive overload or do you not try?


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## CJ (Aug 30, 2021)

MrRogers said:


> Interesting replies. Ive always felt like a set is made in the final reps, getting in your head and pushing just beyond what you think you're capable of.


I think so too, at least those reps do more. It makes it more efficient in my opinion, so you can do less sets to achieve the same thing. And less total reps is less overall wear and tear on the body. 


MrRogers said:


> To the guys that don't train to failure, are you always increasing the weight? How do you achieve progressive overload or do you not try?


Going to failure isn't required to achieve progressive overload. You can still get stronger by not failing. Some exercises, like Squats and Deadlifts, going to failure is more potential harm than good.


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## OldeBull1 (Aug 30, 2021)

I separate lifts into movers and builders. My movers are the big barbell lifts. I don't train those to failure, I prefer to keep all reps crisp and explosive.  Builders are more isolation and machine work. I'll often take those to, or past, failure.
70% of the time, no.


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## Xxplosive (Aug 30, 2021)

Adking29 said:


> Curious with everyones success, or lack thereof, with training to failure.
> 
> When Mike Matthews posted about this topic last week I thought, "I train to failure in all but my first set"
> 
> ...



When lifting heavy, i train to failure on my last 1-2 sets. I have always made dramatic size and strength gains this way when taking in adequate protein and calories.

That being said, you cant do this week in, week out, year round. You gotta take a 4-8 week break from heavy to failure or you are gonna wear out your CNS to where its counterproductive.


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## dirtys1x (Aug 31, 2021)

All my working sets are to failure. I hardly count rep ranges anymore and work most of my ancillary lifts (like flys, leg extension, etc etc) to failure. My compounds lifts are structured still because I work in pyramids of progressive overload to improve strength.. but yeah for the most part I’m working to failure


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