# Food Timing, Looking for Feedback / Suggestions



## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

My goal is to put on weight, so I'd love to hear from some of the bigger guys here.

So I have a hard time with breakfast, I have no appetite in the morning, and I go to the gym 2-3 hours after waking up so I don't want to feel bloated while I'm there. I usually just have a protein shake and a banana along with maybe a granola bar and or some greek yogurt. This is the toughest time of the day for me.

Post workout is lunch time, and I eat a huge lunch, probably 1000-1200 calories. I get a plate lunch from this soul food place by my office, and I order double meat. It typically consists of baked chicken leg quarters, meatloaf, or spaghetti and meatballs with sides like cornbread, green beans, red beans and rice, corn caserole. It's a huge filled to the top to-go plate, and I eat it all.

I get home a few hours later and pretty much snack on protein rich foods (like maybe nuts, jerky, yogurt, protein shakes) until dinner time then eat a normal human sized dinner (like 700 calories), then snack some more until bedtime.

I'm  averaging around 3200-3500 calories a day. I've cut out sugary drinks and desserts temporarily before a beach vacation next month, but after that I will be able to push my calories up to about 3700-4000 a day. I can't each much more than that without getting sick.

Anyone have the morning breakfast issue? Any suggestions? I can even post food logs if someone wants to give advice. I feel like breakfast is my biggest problem.


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

Ground oats with whey was always easy for me


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

Could even get down like 2 cups dry like that.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

PZT said:


> Ground oats with whey was always easy for me


How much do you put in a serving? How many cals / protein is it?


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

Think 1/2 c dry is like 150 cals.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> How much do you put in a serving? How many cals / protein is it?


Lol I just realized I literally have your food logs on the site, duh.


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

PZT said:


> Think 1/2 c dry is like 150 cals.


Wouldn’t count the protein from it only the whey


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Lol I just realized I literally have your food logs on the site, duh.


You’ll have to go back for the good times lol


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## CJ (May 18, 2022)

PZT said:


> Ground oats with whey was always easy for me





PZT said:


> Think 1/2 c dry is like 150 cals.


Yup, it is. I use 3 servings and a scoop of protein right before my hikes. 570 calories goes down in seconds.


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## CJ (May 18, 2022)

Also add granola and berries to my yogurt to bump up the calories. Goes down easy.


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## NbleSavage (May 18, 2022)

Aye, weighin in a just a scone over 150 kilos, bigger than some and smaller than others. I faced the breakfast / morning workout issue before. I found whey and peanut butter and whole milk to be a good bit of calories (30 grams of pb - just a couple tbsps for ye imperial yanks) is round 180 calories and 7gms protein - bit of fat but good fer ye if yer bulking. Couple scoops of whey get ye round 50 grams protein easy and a cup of whole milk adds round 150 kcals and another 7 or so grams of protein. 

Having that round 90 mins before yer gym session - add a shot of espresso to it if ye need a bit of motivation - should have ye right as rain.


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

Milk whey and oats is so delicious if the rest of your diet is bland. Easy to get down cause you look forward to it so much.


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## RiR0 (May 18, 2022)

Your issue is food choices and trying to push calories too high too fast


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

PZT said:


> Milk whey and oats is so delicious if the rest of your diet is bland. Easy to get down cause you look forward to it so much.


So what kind of oats and whey are you eating?


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## PZT (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> So what kind of oats and whey are you eating?


When I do it I use quick oats and optimum nutrition. But man them oats with some BSN brownie can’t be beat taste wise


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## snake (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> My goal is to put on weight, so I'd love to hear from some of the bigger guys here.


Your first mistake is assuming that someone that is fat knows how to eat. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 If you want to weigh more and don't care about anything but the scale, it's not that hard. Push the high caloric foods and lead a sedentary lifestyle. Find someone that's at 8% BF, ask them how they did it, then  do the complete opposite.

Here's something I have my one son do in the morning since he's a lot like you, can't get a big breakfast in. Get a weight gainer protein mix. Some of this garbage can get ya 1500 cals in a sitting. And if ya really want to push it, add in a bagel and cream cheese. At night, go to bed with a 20 oz glass of whole milk and 2 candy bars. 

And all day, don't do shit. Never run when you can walk, never walk when you can stand, never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lay, never lay when you can sleep. 

I can't believe I'm giving this advice but hey, you asked. Good luck Cohiba!


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## silentlemon1011 (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> My goal is to put on weight, so I'd love to hear from some of the bigger guys here.
> 
> So I have a hard time with breakfast, I have no appetite in the morning, and I go to the gym 2-3 hours after waking up so I don't want to feel bloated while I'm there. I usually just have a protein shake and a banana along with maybe a granola bar and or some greek yogurt. This is the toughest time of the day for me.
> 
> ...



What has helped a lot for my morning meals...

I have Autoimmune Gastritis, so nutrition can be my biggest obstacle.

A TBSP full of Magnesium Glycinate helps settle my stomach first thing in the morninf

I wake up at 0400, take a spoonful, get dressed, trimmed and ready for the gym, at about 0420 i can typically start to eat food.

Before adding this to my .morning, i was unable to consume food at all in the AM, usually for about 3 hours.
Now im able to eat Yogurt, Oats, 3 eggs (or substitute a protein shake for when i cant stomach eggs)

its a small change, but i found quite helpful, it wasnt immediate, but it slowly changed ovee time.until i could consume food in the morning


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

snake said:


> Your first mistake is assuming that someone that is fat knows how to eat. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> If you want to weigh more and don't care about anything but the scale, it's not that hard. Push the high caloric foods and lead a sedentary lifestyle. Find someone that's at 8% BF, ask them how they did it, then  do the complete opposite.
> 
> ...


Well I guess I should have been more specific, trying to gain muscle mass not fat. I lterally can't seem to get fat no matter how much I eat as long as I'm lifting. 

But I really like the advice, any of those weight gain protein mixes you guys like?


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

silentlemon1011 said:


> What has helped a lot for my morning meals...
> 
> I have Autoimmune Gastritis, so nutrition can be my biggest obstacle.
> 
> ...


That's really interesting I'll look into it.


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## snake (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Well I guess I should have been more specific, trying to gain muscle mass not fat. I lterally can't seem to get fat no matter how much I eat as long as I'm lifting.
> 
> But I really like the advice, any of those weight gain protein mixes you guys like?


In that case, gear and more protein.


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## RiR0 (May 18, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Well I guess I should have been more specific, trying to gain muscle mass not fat. I lterally can't seem to get fat no matter how much I eat as long as I'm lifting.
> 
> But I really like the advice, any of those weight gain protein mixes you guys like?


You’re at 15-17% estimated bf. You definitely are getting fat and for the purposes of putting on as much tissue as possible optimally you’re too fat.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 18, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> You’re at 15-17% estimated bf. You definitely are getting fat and for the purposes of putting on as much tissue as possible optimally you’re too fat.


Maybe it's my age (47) or metabolism, but my body seems to like hanging around 15% bf. I've had lower calorie diets in the past and gains were hard to come by, while my bf% stayed the same. The only places I really have visible fat are my lower abs and that little spot between my pec and underarm, and it's not much. You'd have a tough time grabbing anything with fat calipers anywhere else on my body. It really hasn't increased other than when I've been layed up for medical isssues.


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## Dex (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> You’re at 15-17% estimated bf. You definitely are getting fat and for the purposes of putting on as much tissue as possible optimally you’re too fat.


Being fat is clearly subjective. If he is in mid to upper teens bodyfat % and doesn't think he is fat, this could be an issue with putting on weight. 

Cohiba, how fat are you willing to get? My waist got big, 38", when bulked a few years ago. I started out in the upper teens BF and ended up in low 20s BF. 90% of my fat gain goes to my mid section as well. Arms and calves were still vascular.


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

Dex said:


> Being fat is clearly subjective. If he is in mid to upper teens bodyfat % and doesn't think he is fat, this could be an issue with putting on weight.
> 
> Cohiba, how fat are you willing to get? My waist got big, 38", when bulked a few years ago. I started out in the upper teens BF and ended up in low 20s BF. 90% of my fat gain goes to my mid section as well. Arms and calves were still vascular.


It’s not subjective. As far as optimal growth that’s too fat. For a bodybuilder that’s too fat. Insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning are worse at that level of body fat. Also drugs don’t work as well. 
There’s a reason the best coaches keep guys pretty lean even in a growth phase. 
When Dusty first worked with Dante Trudel the first thing he did was got him shredded. 
There’s no reason to go above 10-maybe 12%, especially if you’re on gear. 
Justin Harris has guys growing crazy staying at around 8%


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

Here's a couple of recent pics. Maybe you saw me say a while back I was 15-17% bf, I may be, idk. I err on the side of caution when I tell people my bf% because I don't want to act like I'm in better shape than I am.

I am willing to have more bf than this to get bigger. The problem with cutting calories for me, is that I have never grown muscle mass on less calories. I get stuck in this limbo, and the belly fat never seems to go away.


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Here's a couple of recent pics. Maybe you saw me say a while back I was 15-17% bf, I may be, idk. I err on the side of caution when I tell people my bf% because I don't want to act like I'm in better shape than I am.
> 
> I am willing to have more bf than this to get bigger. The problem with cutting calories for me, is that I have never grown muscle mass on less calories. I get stuck in this limbo, and the belly fat never seems to go away.
> View attachment 22489
> View attachment 22490


Closer to 20 
You’re not lean enough for a growth phase


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## Yano (May 19, 2022)

It's not all that clean a meal but , Peanut Butter Banana and Honey sandwich or two and a glass of whole milk  WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Closer to 20
> You’re not lean enough for a growth phase


Thanks for the feedback.


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## Dex (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> It’s not subjective. As far as optimal growth that’s too fat. For a bodybuilder that’s too fat. Insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning are worse at that level of body fat. Also drugs don’t work as well.
> There’s a reason the best coaches keep guys pretty lean even in a growth phase.
> When Dusty first worked with Dante Trudel the first thing he did was got him shredded.
> There’s no reason to go above 10-maybe 12%, especially if you’re on gear.
> Justin Harris has guys growing crazy staying at around 8%


I said being or thinking you are fat is subjective, Riro. I wasn't saying for optimal growth. I would also recommend dropping some bodyfat before bulking. 

@CohibaRobusto  without seeing your legs, it appears you are upper teens bodyfat. If you are fine with that and don't care to add more bodyfat, then go ahead and bulk. I wouldn't shoot to gain more than 1lb/wk though. Or you could follow Riro's advice and drop down to at least 12% or lower before beginning the bulk to optimize your gains. It is almost summer and a great time to drop the fat. With proper diet and training, you could be lean and ready by the end of September. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

Dex said:


> I said being or thinking you are fat is subjective, Riro. I wasn't saying for optimal growth. I would also recommend dropping some bodyfat before bulking.
> 
> @CohibaRobusto  without seeing your legs, it appears you are upper teens bodyfat. If you are fine with that and don't care to add more bodyfat, then go ahead and bulk. I wouldn't shoot to gain more than 1lb/wk though. Or you could follow Riro's advice and drop down to at least 12% or lower before beginning the bulk to optimize your gains. It is almost summer and a great time to drop the fat. With proper diet and training, you could be lean and ready by the end of September. Good luck with whatever you choose.


Thanks. Yeah I'm totally fine with it. I feel like the amount of time it would take for me to diet down leaner would not be worth the difference it would make to use that as a starting point. I'm also not disciplined enough with my diet to maintain that level of bodyfat long term while bulking.

I'm doing this for fun too, it's not like I'm trying to compete in any way. I'm pretty content with how I look right now for the most part. If you saw where I started at 4 years ago...

I just want to try to get to 220, and see how I feel at that point.


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Thanks. Yeah I'm totally fine with it. I feel like the amount of time it would take for me to diet down leaner would not be worth the difference it would make to use that as a starting point. I'm also not disciplined enough with my diet to maintain that level of bodyfat long term while bulking.
> 
> I'm doing this for fun too, it's not like I'm trying to compete in any way. I'm pretty content with how I look right now for the most part. If you saw where I started at 4 years ago...
> 
> I just want to try to get to 220, and see how I feel at that point.





CohibaRobusto said:


> Thanks for the feedback.


So you keep bulking, you’re 20% now where do you end up with how you bulk? 30-40%?
On top of taking gear that’s a lot of stress on the body. 
Bulking is not just pound food and put on fat. 
What you’re doing is eating too much and the wrong food at macros at the wrong times and gaining weight. You could go in a deficit right now and done right gain more muscle than you will in the direction you’re headed


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

Dex said:


> I said being or thinking you are fat is subjective, Riro. I wasn't saying for optimal growth. I would also recommend dropping some bodyfat before bulking.
> 
> @CohibaRobusto  without seeing your legs, it appears you are upper teens bodyfat. If you are fine with that and don't care to add more bodyfat, then go ahead and bulk. I wouldn't shoot to gain more than 1lb/wk though. Or you could follow Riro's advice and drop down to at least 12% or lower before beginning the bulk to optimize your gains. It is almost summer and a great time to drop the fat. With proper diet and training, you could be lean and ready by the end of September. Good luck with whatever you choose.


Being fat isn’t subjective. Ask a dr. Being fat is measurable and very objective.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> So you keep bulking, you’re 20% now where do you end up with how you bulk? 30-40%?
> On top of taking gear that’s a lot of stress on the body.
> Bulking is not just pound food and put on fat.
> What you’re doing is eating too much and the wrong food at macros at the wrong times and gaining weight. You could go in a deficit right now and done right gain more muscle than you will in the direction you’re headed


I'm only on trt 150/wk right now. No, my bf% doesn't get much more than this no matter how much I eat. I've gone up to like 5k calories a day before for an extended period. I got up to 210 and my bf% was about the same.

Now macros... where would you like to see those? Because I'm currently shooting for 45% carbs, 25% fat, and 30% protein at 3200 calories a day.


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## Achillesking (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> It’s not subjective. As far as optimal growth that’s too fat. For a bodybuilder that’s too fat. Insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning are worse at that level of body fat. Also drugs don’t work as well.
> There’s a reason the best coaches keep guys pretty lean even in a growth phase.
> When Dusty first worked with Dante Trudel the first thing he did was got him shredded.
> There’s no reason to go above 10-maybe 12%, especially if you’re on gear.
> Justin Harris has guys growing crazy staying at around 8%


The steroidify rep shit posted this 🤣🤣🤣


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

Achillesking said:


> The steroidify rep shit posted this 🤣🤣🤣


After he followed me


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## Achillesking (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> After he followed me


Fuckin probably don't know what any of the emojis mean since they aren't Chinese


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> I'm only on trt 150/wk right now. No, my bf% doesn't get much more than this no matter how much I eat. I've gone up to like 5k calories a day before for an extended period. I got up to 210 and my bf% was about the same.
> 
> Now macros... where would you like to see those? Because I'm currently shooting for 45% carbs, 25% fat, and 30% protein at 3200 calories a day.


Carbs pre, intra, and post only. No carbs on off days and carb meals and fat meals separate. 
Is probably how I’d arrange them.


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

Yano said:


> It's not all that clean a meal but , Peanut Butter Banana and Honey sandwich or two and a glass of whole milk  WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


A fucking honey samwich LOL, I love you dude.


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## Dex (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Being fat isn’t subjective. Ask a dr. Being fat is measurable and very objective.


Bodyfat is measurable, of course. Being or feeling fat is subjective. I'm sure his PCP wouldn't agree that he is fat but tell him that he is healthy. I feel fat if I have any noticeable fat on me. I grew up shredded sub 10% athletic until my late teens/early 20s. Is he fat for bodybuilding, sure. Is he fat for being an American, not even close.


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

🤔 there’s a lot of ways you could toy with it to figure out what works best for you. It’s hard to say without really knowing how you respond.


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## RiR0 (May 19, 2022)

Dex said:


> Bodyfat is measurable, of course. Being or feeling fat is subjective. I'm sure his PCP wouldn't agree that he is fat but tell him that he is healthy. I feel fat if I have any noticeable fat on me. I grew up shredded sub 10% athletic until my late teens/early 20s. Is he fat for bodybuilding, sure. Is he fat for being an American, not even close.


I wouldn’t use fat for an American as a standard for anything


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## Dex (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I wouldn’t use fat for an American as a standard for anything


Lets not leave the UK out of this, they have the same issue with obesity. lol


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Carbs pre, intra, and post only. No carbs on off days and carb meals and fat meals separate.
> Is probably how I’d arrange them.


Ok this sounds good. 

I haven't really been doing that good of a job timing carbs. I can definitely improve with that.

Tell me more about the carb meals and fat meals as separate and the reasoning if you have time so I can understand better.


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## Send0 (May 19, 2022)

I also agree with being lean before bulking. Insulin sensitivity is improved, your body will make better use of the nutrients, and a host of other benefits that are related to improving muscle protein synthesis... another way to phrase it is that your body becomes more sensitive to muscle protein synthesis.

There are also inflammatory cytokines given off by fat tissue that further make things less than optimal.  This also impairs muscle protein synthesis further. 

This article discusses obesity, and I don't like that they reference BMI. I won't pretend this article is perfect. However there's quite a lot we can extrapolate upon for our purposes. After all, it's not like you hit some magic body fat level that is considered "obese", and then all these processes get impacted. It's a sliding scale; as body fat goes up / down then anabolism in general is impacted or improved. It does cover the processes that do this fairly well, and cites it's references. 









						Obesity Alters the Muscle Protein Synthetic Response to Nutrition and Exercise
					

Improving the health of skeletal muscle is an important component of obesity treatment. Apart from allowing for physical activity, skeletal muscle tissue is fundamental for the regulation of postprandial macronutrient metabolism, a time period that represents when metabolic derangements are most...




					www.frontiersin.org
				




Can you bulk without being lean; absolutely you can. However it's won't be "optimal", and in my opinion a person would do themselves a service by getting lean first.

If we are going to put drugs in our body, then I believe we should be doing everything we can to maximize our results/outcome


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## CohibaRobusto (May 19, 2022)

Dex said:


> Lets not leave the UK out of this, they have the same issue with obesity. lol


I like to use the american waterpark as my benchmark for gauging fatness. I went to Schlitterbahn one time, and I felt shredded. LOL


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## Send0 (May 19, 2022)

Send0 said:


> I also agree with being lean before bulking. Insulin sensitivity is improved, your body will make better use of the nutrients, and a host of other benefits that are related to improving muscle protein synthesis... another way to phrase it is that your body becomes more sensitive to muscle protein synthesis.
> 
> There are also inflammatory cytokines given off by fat tissue that further make things less than optimal.  This also impairs muscle protein synthesis further.
> 
> ...


BTW, I hate to admit it.. but I wrote this while eating Trolli sour brite crawlers.

So in this moment I am a hypocrite. I feel like a fat piece of shit, but somehow I earned it since I came back from my business travels 3lbs lighter, and looking leaner.

I have zero clue how I managed this, but I'm rewarding myself by letting myself be a POS and have a hand full of these bitches 🤣


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## Dex (May 19, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> I like to use the american waterpark as my benchmark for gauging fatness. I went to Schlitterbahn one time, and I felt shredded. LOL


That's what my wife says about our waterpark. So many people in the wrong outfits! If I am over 15%, the shirt stays on. But these morbidly obese wear next to nothing. lol


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## CohibaRobusto (May 20, 2022)

Dex said:


> That's what my wife says about our waterpark. So many people in the wrong outfits! If I am over 15%, the shirt stays on. But these morbidly obese wear next to nothing. lol


It's crazy, but I'm glad they are so comfortable with themselves.


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Ok this sounds good.
> 
> I haven't really been doing that good of a job timing carbs. I can definitely improve with that.
> 
> Tell me more about the carb meals and fat meals as separate and the reasoning if you have time so I can understand better.


I’m looking at it from the standpoint of nutrient partitioning and when carbs are most needed. 
You really only need carbs as an energy source. 
Which is why I like them used in some cases only around workouts. 
If you add fat to the carbs it’s slow down the digestion. 
In this case I want your body burning through them and mainly used for restoring glycogen and also energy in the gym. So energy and repair. 
Keeping them around workouts only also helps with insulin sensitivity.
I really like gdas with all carb meals as well.


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

I’m not saying this is the only way as there’s many ways to skin a cat


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## Dex (May 20, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> It's crazy, but I'm glad they are so comfortable with themselves.


I'm not. They need to be less comfortable and get healthy and stop following this "big is beautiful" bullshit. The amount of health problems it comes with is insane. And it is a huge problem for lower income families with lack of education and resources. Many think they don't have diabetes or high blood pressure because they take medications to treat it. They need to be educated more about their diseases and the poor nutrition that is causing it.


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

Dex said:


> I'm not. They need to be less comfortable and get healthy and stop following this "big is beautiful" bullshit. The amount of health problems it comes with is insane. And it is a huge problem for lower income families with lack of education and resources. Many think they don't have diabetes or high blood pressure because they take medications to treat it. They need to be educated more about their diseases and the poor nutrition that is causing it.


It’s also the largest burden on the health care system and ends up costing non fatfucks  who work and pay taxes


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## CohibaRobusto (May 20, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I’m looking at it from the standpoint of nutrient partitioning and when carbs are most needed.
> You really only need carbs as an energy source.
> Which is why I like them used in some cases only around workouts.
> If you add fat to the carbs it’s slow down the digestion.
> ...


Ok this is good stuff. I had to look up GDA's. Thanks.


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## Dex (May 20, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> It’s also the largest burden on the health care system and ends up costing non fatfucks  who work and pay taxes


I was going to mention the costs but decided not to. Yes, it is a huge problem. Once again, the lower income families with these issues, who are on medicaid, are costing all of us.


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

Dex said:


> I was going to mention the costs but decided not to. Yes, it is a huge problem. Once again, the lower income families with these issues, who are on medicaid, are costing all of us.


Yessir and those are that’s the same people who have the most children


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## CohibaRobusto (May 20, 2022)

Dex said:


> I'm not. They need to be less comfortable and get healthy and stop following this "big is beautiful" bullshit. The amount of health problems it comes with is insane. And it is a huge problem for lower income families with lack of education and resources. Many think they don't have diabetes or high blood pressure because they take medications to treat it. They need to be educated more about their diseases and the poor nutrition that is causing it.





RiR0 said:


> It’s also the largest burden on the health care system and ends up costing non fatfucks  who work and pay taxes


I hear what y'all are saying and I mostly agree. It's a problem when it puts a burden on others. 

I just know how much genetics are involved too. I had a huge fat friend growing up. He ate less than me, and he was (and still is) a huge fat fucker. Meanwhile I was a skinny fucker.

He ate less than me, pretty much the same foods, and we did the same stuff. His digestive system was crazy slow. He shits like once a week. Now I'm sure he could turn it around with diet and exercise. But I know we had very different starting points.


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## CJ (May 20, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Carbs pre, intra, and post only. No carbs on off days and carb meals and fat meals separate.
> Is probably how I’d arrange them.


I fukkin hate my low carb off days. THEY SUCK ASS!!!  😡


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

CJ said:


> I fukkin hate my low carb off days. THEY SUCK ASS!!!  😡


@Badleroybrown has 2 days a week with lean protein and veggies only. 
He’s a fucking champ


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## CJ (May 20, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> @Badleroybrown has 2 days a week with lean protein and veggies only.
> He’s a fucking champ


Better man than I am.

I just looked, I'm about 500g on training days, and 150-200g on non training days, all carbs from veggies included too.

It will drop as required though, as I dig deeper.


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## wotmeworry (May 20, 2022)

Send0 said:


> I also agree with being lean before bulking. Insulin sensitivity is improved, your body will make better use of the nutrients, and a host of other benefits that are related to improving muscle protein synthesis... another way to phrase it is that your body becomes more sensitive to muscle protein synthesis.
> 
> There are also inflammatory cytokines given off by fat tissue that further make things less than optimal.  This also impairs muscle protein synthesis further.
> 
> ...


I think you nailed it: you can gain lean mass just as efficiently by bulking then cutting or cutting then bulking (see the article posted by CJ on Monday https://www.strongerbyscience.com/p...e=https://www.strongerbyscience.com/p-ratios/), but the mass gain is not the only consideration - adding fat when already fat likely has heath risks.  So nothing to lose by cutting first, and potential inflammation/hormone benefits from doing so.


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## Dex (May 20, 2022)

CJ said:


> Better man than I am.
> 
> I just looked, I'm about 500g on training days, and 150-200g on non training days, all carbs from veggies included too.
> 
> It will drop as required though, as I dig deeper.


I averaged 291g carbs daily this week, 294g last week. I have cardio every day and don't think I will ever do a no carb day. That sounds awful. I would need a padded room.


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

Dex said:


> I averaged 291g carbs daily this week, 294g last week. I have cardio every day and don't think I will ever do a no carb day. That sounds awful. I would need a padded room.


I’m big on insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. I believe it’s very overlooked. 
I think it’s as important as progressive overload, recovery and drugs
It’s why I cringe when I see guys asking for diet advice to grow and people say add in 1000 more calories


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## TODAY (May 20, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I’m big on insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. I believe it’s very overlooked.
> I think it’s as important as progressive overload, recovery and drugs
> It’s why I cringe when I see guys asking for diet advice to grow and people say add in 1000 more calories


That's what the chromium picolinate is for 🤥


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## RiR0 (May 20, 2022)

TODAY said:


> That's what the chromium picolinate is for 🤥


I like gdas 😂


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## Charger69 (May 27, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I’m looking at it from the standpoint of nutrient partitioning and when carbs are most needed.
> You really only need carbs as an energy source.
> Which is why I like them used in some cases only around workouts.
> If you add fat to the carbs it’s slow down the digestion.
> ...



I do agree with eating around the workouts and insulin sensitivity so maybe I misunderstood. I also agree with the energy and repair, but I do not feel that that will fully occur just eating carbs around the workout. 
Glycogen storage would be limited after your workout. NOTE: workout variables will effect this. 
I believe that you should ingest carbs at least 24 hours in advance (7-10 g) if you are going to have a workout less than 90 minutes. I would go 36-48 hours at 10-12 g if greater than 90 minutes. 
If you are low on carbs, taking protein will help with the reserve of glycogen storage. 
Glycogen storage is like charging a battery. You don’t just eat a lot of carbs and you are maxed out. 

I


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RiR0 (May 27, 2022)

Charger69 said:


> I do agree with eating around the workouts and insulin sensitivity so maybe I misunderstood. I also agree with the energy and repair, but I do not feel that that will fully occur just eating carbs around the workout.
> Glycogen storage would be limited after your workout. NOTE: workout variables will effect this.
> I believe that you should ingest carbs at least 24 hours in advance (7-10 g) if you are going to have a workout less than 90 minutes. I would go 36-48 hours at 10-12 g if greater than 90 minutes.
> If you are low on carbs, taking protein will help with the reserve of glycogen storage.
> ...


If you go hypo it doesn’t take 24-48 hours to return to normal. 
Lots of people even Scott Stevenson in his fortitude training book advocate carbs around workout only and lots of others like Shelby Starnes and Justin Harris advocate carb cycling where carbs are only used on training days. 
The point isn’t to refill glycogen stores. It’s to provide energy through the workout and to help to help shuttle the glycogen after. 
Carbs aren’t really that important for repair, amino acids are. 

What I’m talking about is in a recomp or cutting phase with carbs only around workouts. 
Not a growth phase but it would work then if calories were high enough.


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## Charger69 (May 27, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> If you go hypo it doesn’t take 24-48 hours to return to normal.
> Lots of people even Scott Stevenson in his fortitude training book advocate carbs around workout only and lots of others like Shelby Starnes and Justin Harris advocate carb cycling where carbs are only used on training days.
> The point isn’t to refill glycogen stores. It’s to provide energy through the workout and to help to help shuttle the glycogen after.
> Carbs aren’t really that important for repair, amino acids are.
> ...



Actually just starting my cutting for a show, however carb cycling but stil having carb consumption around workout. 
350/250/150 last day is depletion at 50 PW only. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MPM (Jun 4, 2022)

Nutrient timing is bull.  Not eating breakfast isn't going to affect your gains at all.  If anything extending your fasting window increases insulin sensitivity when you do decide to eat.  Just focus on getting calories in when you do eat and if you're having trouble try adding healthy fats to a shake or something.  Don't overthink it.


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## RiR0 (Jun 4, 2022)

MPM said:


> Nutrient timing is bull.  Not eating breakfast isn't going to affect your gains at all.  If anything extending your fasting window increases insulin sensitivity when you do decide to eat.  Just focus on getting calories in when you do eat and if you're having trouble try adding healthy fats to a shake or something.  Don't overthink it.


No! Nutrient timing isn’t bull. There’s more to it than just cals in cals out.
Fasting is shit for trying to be as big and lean as possible


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## CJ (Jun 4, 2022)

MPM said:


> Nutrient timing is bull.  Not eating breakfast isn't going to affect your gains at all.  If anything extending your fasting window increases insulin sensitivity when you do decide to eat.  Just focus on getting calories in when you do eat and if you're having trouble try adding healthy fats to a shake or something.  Don't overthink it.


I disagree with this as well. 👎👎


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## TODAY (Jun 4, 2022)

MPM said:


> Nutrient timing is bull.  Not eating breakfast isn't going to affect your gains at all.  If anything extending your fasting window increases insulin sensitivity when you do decide to eat.  Just focus on getting calories in when you do eat and if you're having trouble try adding healthy fats to a shake or something.  Don't overthink it.


For beginner/intermediate trainees, there are certainly bigger fish to fry.

For advanced and ESPECIALLY enhanced trainees, however, nutrient timing can be consequential.


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## MPM (Jun 4, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> No! Nutrient timing isn’t bull. There’s more to it than just cals in cals out.
> Fasting is shit for trying to be as big and lean as possible


Agreed in regards to cico.  But timing isn't of any concern to any meaningful extent unless you're on the top 10 Olympia stage....in which case you aren't here getting advice.  If anyone thinks eating a few grams of whatever for breakfast vs (insert any time here) is going to make a difference for 99% of you they're placing to much importance in the wrong areas.  Just eat real food and get adequate protein.  Stop over complicating crap that's honestly simple.


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## CJ (Jun 4, 2022)

MPM said:


> Agreed in regards to cico.  But timing isn't of any concern to any meaningful extent unless you're on the top 10 Olympia stage....in which case you aren't here getting advice.  If anyone thinks eating a few grams of whatever for breakfast vs (insert any time here) is going to make a difference for 99% of you they're placing to much importance in the wrong areas.  Just eat real food and get adequate protein.  Stop over complicating crap that's honestly simple.


OK, so this guy is having trouble gaining weight, but you're telling him it's ok to skip meals, just eat whatever whenever? 

What if he only has a bagel and cream cheese for breakfast, skips the mid day meals, but to get his daily protein in, he then eats 2 lbs of chicken breast for dinner to get his 200 grams of protein in? 

It matters.


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## RiR0 (Jun 4, 2022)

MPM said:


> Agreed in regards to cico.  But timing isn't of any concern to any meaningful extent unless you're on the top 10 Olympia stage....in which case you aren't here getting advice.  If anyone thinks eating a few grams of whatever for breakfast vs (insert any time here) is going to make a difference for 99% of you they're placing to much importance in the wrong areas.  Just eat real food and get adequate protein.  Stop over complicating crap that's honestly simple.


Bullshit. I’ll bet the physique matches the thought process. 
Wanting to maximize nutrition has nothing to do with stepping on the Olympia stage. 
It’s funny when people who no experience working with people or even doing much for themself speak with such authority. 

Even if you gained one gram of muscle extra a day over time that adds up to pounds. 

 fasted training or fasted anything is counter productive for building the best physique possible. 

Stop giving advice and stick to Bible study


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## RiR0 (Jun 4, 2022)

Dumbasses take gear but want to slack on nutrition 🤦🏻


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## MetatronTurtle (Jun 6, 2022)

I browsed through but didn't really see many good ideas suggested for breakfast. I'm in the no/light breakfast crew but you could try Greek yogurt/cottage cheese with fruits. Low fat, good protein. Casein to keep.that trickle feed going now that you started the day and before you gym. But that stuff digests pretty quick for me so shouldn't leave you too bloated.

I saw people calling you fat and bringing up insulin sensitivity. Here's a study I found recently regarding strongman and touches on football players a bit: https://journal.iusca.org/index.php/Journal/article/view/2/69

The part I wanted to call attention to is that despite the strongmen (and football players) being fat as shit, they had good fasted blood glucose levels. I know this is just a snapshot and can't really be extrapolated much, but I think it's worth noting. Despite being majorly fat, those groups had good blood glucose levels. I would take that to mean that their insulin can't be terrible, and that exercise/muscle mass having a protective effect against the beetus is pretty damn strong.

Also that other study (I can dig it up if needed but Dante/DoggCrapp references it) where in terms of LBM (and fatness), sumo > PL > BB. I'm not too familiar with sumo, but I'm sure it's safe to say that in general, BBers have higher activity levels compared to PL due to higher volume/frequency and cardio. If we expected insulin sensitivity be the sheer determinator of lean gains, we'd expect muscle gains to taper off to a plateau as fat mass and the resultant insensitivity reduced any muscle gains over fat to a negligible amount.

Finally, anecdotal, but all the pros that have those phases where they get fat as shit then diet down and are fuckhuge. Yates, Cutler, Priest. Even Ronnie got soft. If maintaining leanness for insulin sensitivity was the most important factor, then why would they have had those fat as fuck phases knowing that's extra time and work to diet it off? It had to have had a net tradeoff of being more efficient in the big picture.

I agree with Rir0 with regards to insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning being priority. The issue is that a lot of the studies/information we have on that is almost all in sedentary, obese populations. Unfortunately, that forces us to look more anecdotally and holistically but as far as the studies on exercise go, it has a hugely influential and almost protective effect on insulin/nutrient partitioning.


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## wotmeworry (Jun 6, 2022)

Personally, I treat studies as food for thought, not proof positive or negative.  Just too much complexity in our bodies and confounding factors in studies.  So, study conclusions can be true, but irrelevant to lean mass gain etc to me, personally.

My interest is as someone old enough to make everything harder (less anabolic response to exercise/protein, lower energy, more prone to injury, more need for recovery etc), and so keen to optimise whatever I can to keep healthy and happy longer ... which means working out, I want to keep mass and I get a buzz from pushing myself.

Mass gain is hard enough, so fasting is out for me.  I am trying supplements per David Sinclair's regimen as an alternative anti-senescence boost (RiR0 laughs at this, but I figure, why not? and, younger than me, has different circumstances).  Given my attitude to studies, experiential learning is my best way forward.

As for bodyfat, my experience is that small surpluses or deficits worked well but going faster cost me too much (too much fat up, too much muscle loss down).

I am interested in the protein recommendations on posts here.  Convinced me to go higher, up to two grams/kg (within calorie total).  I'll see what that does.


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## MetatronTurtle (Jun 6, 2022)

wotmeworry said:


> Personally, I treat studies as food for thought, not proof positive or negative.  Just too much complexity in our bodies and confounding factors in studies.  So, study conclusions can be true, but irrelevant to lean mass gain etc to me, personally.
> 
> My interest is as someone old enough to make everything harder (less anabolic response to exercise/protein, lower energy, more prone to injury, more need for recovery etc), and so keen to optimise whatever I can to keep healthy and happy longer ... which means working out, I want to keep mass and I get a buzz from pushing myself.
> 
> ...


Agree, which is why I put a premium more on coaching experience than studies since coaches are learning from the trenches with groups closer to us instead of gen pop. That said, far as what it says for older trainees, I see coaches recommend needing even more protein to stimulate a response and account for inefficiencies. And I think high-high protein has been touted for a long time and is safe so may as well, as long as your budget can handle it.


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## Koonj (Jun 6, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I like gdas 😂


Do you actually use them and if so anything you recommend? Also, what about studies stating that due to it using AMPK track it can inhibit protein synthesis? I’d seriously like thoughts. I’m interested in whatever can help.


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## Swiper. (Jun 17, 2022)

CohibaRobusto said:


> Well I guess I should have been more specific, trying to gain muscle mass not fat. I lterally can't seem to get fat no matter how much I eat as long as I'm lifting.
> 
> But I really like the advice, any of those weight gain protein mixes you guys like?














it’s good that you’re looking for help because you don’t have abs and you have very little muscle. something is not right with your diet and training unless this is your goal to look like this. 

is there a reason why you don’t have abs and are not lean?


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## RiR0 (Jun 18, 2022)

Koonj said:


> Do you actually use them and if so anything you recommend? Also, what about studies stating that due to it using AMPK track it can inhibit protein synthesis? I’d seriously like thoughts. I’m interested in whatever can help.


Yes I use them. Berberine 600mg 3-4x daily with bitter melon extract and caffeine free green tea extract. 
Don’t care about the studies honestly I’ve never seen one done on people trying to get as big and lean as possible on gear. 
Most studies whether diet, training or supplement related don’t really apply to my demographic


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## CJ (Jun 18, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> Yes I use them. Berberine 600mg 3-4x daily with bitter melon extract and caffeine free green tea extract.
> Don’t care about the studies honestly I’ve never seen one done on people trying to get as big and lean as possible on gear.
> Most studies whether diet, training or supplement related don’t really apply to my demographic


What have you noticed with the Berberine? I have some, and Metformin too, on the way. I was going to take 500mg 3x per day on the Berberine.


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## RiR0 (Jun 18, 2022)

CJ said:


> What have you noticed with the Berberine? I have some, and Metformin too, on the way. I was going to take 500mg 3x per day on the Berberine.


I didn’t like metformin personally. With berberine I notice better recovery, pumps and fatloss vs weight loss. I also don’t go hypo and feel like I’m having a stroke or heart attack like I do without it.


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## TODAY (Jun 18, 2022)

CJ said:


> What have you noticed with the Berberine? I have some, and Metformin too, on the way. I was going to take 500mg 3x per day on the Berberine.


Farts, man









So many farts.


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## CohibaRobusto (Jun 18, 2022)

Swiper. said:


> it’s good that you’re looking for help because you don’t have abs and you have very little muscle. something is not right with your diet and training unless this is your goal to look like this.
> 
> is there a reason why you don’t have abs and are not lean?


Those pics aren't bad, you should have seen me 3.5 years ago:



I had some heart issues the past year and a half that have slowed my progress.

Other than that, I'm not really trying to have abs right now, that's not a huge deal for me. I look so much better than I did in this pic, that I'd be happy even if I were stuck like I am now for the rest of my days.

Just trying to get bigger for the time being. My goal for the next few years is to get up to 220 lbs. My bf will stay about the same, it doesn't usually fluctuate much. I might try to lean out after I hit 220, but who knows.


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