# Cycling age



## PillarofBalance (Mar 25, 2019)

A 20 year old comes here and wants to run a first cycle. 

Someone is telling them to run test and deca 

You tell them no jewce because of their age.

Are you wrong? If I tell them how to cycle safely am I wrong? Is there a right age to start?

I for one will never tell someone under 18 how to cycle but 18 and up if they are going to do it, then you know it's gonna happen. May as well make the best of it and minimize the damage.


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 25, 2019)

Agree. 

Depends on situation. Take a 20 yr old kid with potential to be a real elite lifter, and he wants it. And he does't want to be a USAPL or IPF guy - show him what's up. Why is he going to wait until he's 30? Makes no sense.

Take a fuk boi that wants to be the next Zyzz - I'll just stay quiet and not say shit.

Just my opinion


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## maxmuscle1 (Mar 25, 2019)

Agree.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

Not the norm but we have talked several out of using gear over the years PoB.

I think just blindly offering that advice without challenging said potential Zyzz Jr. is what bothers some.  If they are a natural born genetically gifted competitor then great, feel free to provide as much guidance as you want to said toddler about how to juice.  

Just not something I would feel comfortable doing.


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## Straight30weight (Mar 25, 2019)

For me, I advise against it unless there’s money on the table. Elite genetics/athletics, fine. At least there’s a good reason. 20 years old just wanting to look juicy af? I have no interest. But hey, I’m 41 and still making stupid mistakes so who am I to judge anyway?


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

I don't pretend to not understand the balance.

On one hand you have trying to prevent some idiot from shutting down his 20 year old HPTA for life and later on regretting he ever used a needle to look good for spring break when he is unable to have kids of his own.  No one wants that guilt on their hands.

On the other hand is thinking well, they are going to do it anyway, so might as well help them as much as we can to save them from their own stupidity.  

I see both, but I think given the history of this board and our beginnings there are those that simply don't have an interest in providing blind advice to young people on using gear as it appears to be irresponsible and reckless with the health of others.  It is a painful and long-winded game to try to talk sense into a young man dead set on using gear but I don't mind it.  I know others don't either.


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 25, 2019)

I always thought it was dumb for a 40 or 50 year old guy to tell a 20 year old they are too young for gear lol...Actually they are much safer off then then the 40 or 50 year old..This shit shouldnt have  a age ..Its should be about your gym experience and how well u understand the drugs


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 25, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> I always thought it was dumb for a 40 or 50 year old guy to tell a 20 year old they are too young for gear lol...Actually they are much safer off then then the 40 or 50 year old..This shit shouldnt have  a age ..Its should be about your gym experience and how well u understand the drugs



Somebody will post a study saying you're wrong, but I agree 100%.


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## transcend2007 (Mar 25, 2019)

Knowing what I know now I would have started before my mid 40's ... 20 not sure but 25+ if I'd been working out and knew what I know now about diet yes ....


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

There's no need to post a study to prove BB wrong :32 (18):


From a physical perspective, when you're young I can only assume you can handle the blood pressure spikes and other associated side effects more easily than when you're my age.  That hasn't been addressed because it isn't germane to the conversation. 

What actually is of concern is that guys are taking a gamble with their ability to reproduce or locking themselves into a lifelong TRT regimen at a point where they have no clue as to what they really want for their life long term. My goals, motivations, and otherwise when I was 20 compared to now look idiotic in comparison due to a lack of life experience.  At 41 I'm comfortable with signing up for TRT for the rest of my life and have the life experience to back up that choice.  Additionally, I've done all the things I would want to do that require an active HPTA in regards to testosterone.

Letting someone blindly make decisions about the rest of their life and us providing them the process in doing so before they even know who they are isn't an attractive option.


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 25, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> There's no need to post a study to prove BB wrong :32 (18):
> 
> 
> From a physical perspective, when you're young I can only assume you can handle the blood pressure spikes and other associated side effects more easily than when you're my age.  That hasn't been addressed because it isn't germane to the conversation.
> ...



Granted it's only anecdotal, but I know so many guys who started with me and cycled for years before just flat out quitting the gym before they were 30. All have kids and DadBods and are doing just fine otherwise around age 40 now. I think young guys recover easier too. Just like everything in life - hangovers, etc. Everything is easier and mistakes are much more easily forgiven by your body when you're young.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Granted it's only anecdotal, but I know so many guys who started with me and cycled for years before just flat out quitting the gym before they were 30. All have kids and DadBods and are doing just fine otherwise around age 40 now. I think young guys recover easier too. Just like everything in life - hangovers, etc. Everything is easier and mistakes are much more easily forgiven by your body when you're young.


While I'm glad for your friends, I agree that is anecdotal evidence at best.  We all know the risks are real and I don't personally want to risk impacting someone for life.


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## John Ziegler (Mar 25, 2019)

what about the whole you shouldnt do steroids until you've reached a full natural potential speil that gets passed around like an old slam pig on that score of it  lol


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 25, 2019)

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/thre...m-what-age-why?p=307003&viewfull=1#post307003

Small addition to that ^^^ 2015 post: I would make an exception for elite athletes/future pro bbers.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 25, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/thre...m-what-age-why?p=307003&viewfull=1#post307003
> 
> Small addition to that ^^^ 2015 post: I would make an exception for elite athletes/future pro bbers.


Great read Zilla, appreciate you bringing that back to the forefront.

I'm not sure anything else would be needed to argue the point.


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## Straight30weight (Mar 26, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> I always thought it was dumb for a 40 or 50 year old guy to tell a 20 year old they are too young for gear lol...Actually they are much safer off then then the 40 or 50 year old..This shit shouldnt have  a age ..Its should be about your gym experience and how well u understand the drugs


Therein lies the problem. Most 20 year olds don’t know a ****in thing.


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## Jin (Mar 26, 2019)

We should ask everyone about training experience, how consistent they’ve been and diet. Also goals. Maybe they don’t need aas maybe they do. 

If aas is just “the frosting on the cake” why are we giving out advice without first asking about the basics?

This is was the biggest issue with the precipitating thread. Not the age, per se, but complete lack of questions about the individuals background and goals. 

We also owe it to first timers to explain the risks no matter how small. 

I also think “asking for a friend” is BS. Make your own damn account.


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## Jin (Mar 26, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/thre...m-what-age-why?p=307003&viewfull=1#post307003
> 
> Small addition to that ^^^ 2015 post: I would make an exception for elite athletes/future pro bbers.



I think we should take Zilla’s post and make it a stickie. Then younger members can decide for themselves.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Jin said:


> I think we should take Zilla’s post and make it a stickie. Then younger members can decide for themselves.


Agreed, sticky that mofo in a fresh thread so it's the first post.  Then we don't need a semi annual "What's our stance on x, y, or z..?" thread.


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## Jada (Mar 26, 2019)

For me personally i feel 20 is still too young but if his goals is to be a top dog and compete in the highest level then its his choice , at 20 my pp was on fire i can imagine my test was threw the roof, for me i didnt start till i was 30ish, and i dont regret it but to each its own.


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## snake (Mar 26, 2019)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Depends on situation. Take a 20 yr old kid with potential to be a real elite lifter, and he wants it. And he does't want to be a USAPL or IPF guy - show him what's up. Why is he going to wait until he's 30? Makes no sense.



There's nothing wrong with competing natty. I personally have no regrets for my time in the USAPL. As for waiting until your 30, it does make some sense to me. You have years of training behind you and 5 good years ahead of you. There's a reason Masters division doesn't start until 40, guys in their 30's are that good.



PillarofBalance said:


> A 20 year old comes here and wants to run a first cycle.....



I would give any 20 y.o. the same advise I'd I given my own sons. Here's what I know, here's what I don't know and they would need to decide for themselves. But to answer the question, I would advise against it at 20 y.o.



Jin said:


> We should ask everyone about training experience, how consistent they’ve been and diet. Also goals. Maybe they don’t need aas maybe they do.



I have had these discussion with young men before. I ask what their goal is by doing their first cycle. 

1. "I want to bench 300" No one needs AAS to bench 300 at say 200 lbs; you need time.
2. "I want to look like you" Yeah, they need to set their sights higher but I hear that a lot. They are not going to find lightning in a vial. Again they need time and there's just not enough in the few years of their training. Hell even if they start at 15, their damn balls haven't even dropped.
3. "I'm at a plateau" They have no idea what a plateau even is and that alone shows a lack of experience.


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 26, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Therein lies the problem. Most 20 year olds don’t know a ****in thing.


nothing wrong with saying to some dumb fuk your not ready for steroids...but just age shouldnt be a reason


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 26, 2019)

Jada said:


> For me personally i feel 20 is still too young but if his goals is to be a top dog and compete in the highest level then its his choice , at 20 my pp was on fire i can imagine my test was threw the roof, for me i didnt start till i was 30ish, and i dont regret it but to each its own.


why ? what is to young about 20


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> nothing wrong with saying to some dumb fuk your not ready for steroids...but just age shouldnt be a reason





Bro Bundy said:


> why ? what is to young about 20


Multiple good reasons for no cycling under 25 are listed in Zilla's thread that was linked previously.


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 26, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> Multiple good reasons for no cycling under 25 are listed in Zilla's thread that was linked previously.


I was asking his reasons mr helper lol..Over 18 your good imo


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> I was asking his reasons mr helper lol..Over 18 your good imo


.......and I was saying click on the link and read for yourself.

#yourewelcomebuddy


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 26, 2019)

this is the new era at SI..The big dose younger age era! Lets get it


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## automatondan (Mar 26, 2019)

I am tired, but my vote is Zilla's post get made a stickie.

I personally do not like the first study he posted because there is not much control/knowledge of what happens to the young men treated with high doses of AAS after the clinical time has ended... Did they all look like Snake or Seek when they got retested 20 years later...??? We don't know. They could have become nobody's with dad-bods, or they could have become obessed like many of us and gone down the same road that we have (once they tasted greatness). 

That being said, the rest of the data Zilla posted all agrees (even so more convincingly) that juicing too early is a bad idea. On a big level.


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## Straight30weight (Mar 26, 2019)

Help me understand why you SHOULD be juicing at 20 (other than you’re an elite)? Your body is making all the test in the world, you are naturally primed to build muscle. At 20 the odds of you having years in the gym is low, having real knowledge is low and you risk dicking up your natural production for the rest of your life. Again, for what? 

That being said, do what you want. You can’t tell most 20 year olds shit anyway (can’t tell me shit and I’m twice that age) and they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 26, 2019)

Is this someone who should be getting on steroids?

He is 18


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## Straight30weight (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> Is this someone who should be getting on steroids?
> 
> He is 18


Do basketball players even take PEDs? You never hear of them getting popped.


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 26, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Do basketball players even take PEDs? You never hear of them getting popped.



NBA is pretty loose with testing. The whole league smokes weed so they don't want to be losing guys.

If I had to guess, they'd take stuff like adderall to stay focused. Adderall is huge in all the big 4 pro sports. It's like 2019's ripped fuel and ultimate orange haha.


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## Jin (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> Is this someone who should be getting on steroids?
> 
> He is 18



He didn’t even start bodybuilding until he was 23. You can start steroids at a reasonable age and still win the Olympia

unless he started juicing before he started bodybuilding


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 26, 2019)

Jin said:


> He didn’t even start bodybuilding until he was 23. You can start steroids at a reasonable age and still win the Olympia
> 
> unless he started juicing before he started bodybuilding



I brought it up because of this idea that you can "see" genetic potential. Nobody thought this dood would be Mr. O. 

So everyone is cool with making exceptions for future ifbb pro bodybuilders. But how do you know when someone is a future ifbb pro?


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## Jin (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> I brought it up because of this idea that you can "see" genetic potential. Nobody thought this dood would be Mr. O.
> 
> So everyone is cool with making exceptions for future ifbb pro bodybuilders. But how do you know when someone is a future ifbb pro?




Great point!


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## Straight30weight (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> I brought it up because of this idea that you can "see" genetic potential. Nobody thought this dood would be Mr. O.
> 
> So everyone is cool with making exceptions for future ifbb pro bodybuilders. But how do you know when someone is a future ifbb pro?


Well wouldn’t he be a great example as to why you don’t need to be juicing at 20?


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> I brought it up because of this idea that you can "see" genetic potential. Nobody thought this dood would be Mr. O.
> 
> So everyone is cool with making exceptions for future ifbb pro bodybuilders. But how do you know when someone is a future ifbb pro?


A very good point Pillar.

Who among us is qualified to decide who is elite and destined for "greatness"?  It's far easier to have a simple age defined policy set where we don't even engage at a certain level.  Maybe one day we would figure out we turned down helping a future Mr. O.  Doubtful.  The greater probability lies with us not helping many young men do something reckless.


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 26, 2019)

This is why I just don't say anything when young, dumb bucks come through.

Most of us were young and dumb at some point. Not everyone goes through their whole life as a true Renaissance Man like Snake haha. 

If I came to this board as it is now when I started, everyone would have told me to wait a few more years and yada, yada, yada. Well I didn't, and I had a goal, and nothing anyone said was going to stop me anyways. Could I have gotten where I wanted at that time without drugs - most likely. Do I have any regret about it - not really.

So that is why I just don't say anything. They will figure it out. And its just my opinion, but some kid who runs a couple test and oral cycles and decides to stop....will come out on the other end just fine 90% of the time. 

I was on for like 5 years of 8 weeks on and 8 weeks off, and then took about a 5 yr break. And was fine. When I went back on around age 30 - that's when it caught me and I couldn't recover. Needed trt after my 2nd cycle back in the game. And I was running tren, deca and all the bad stuff in my early 20s, and my first 2 cycles back in the game where test and var and then test and dbol.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 26, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Well wouldn’t he be a great example as to why you don’t need to be juicing at 20?



Well shit... Suppose it could be.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Well wouldn’t he be a great example as to why you don’t need to be juicing at 20?


He would be the poster child of why it isn't necessary.


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## Spongy (Mar 26, 2019)

So now everyone is assuming Phil Heath wasn't on steroids at 20?  Lots of assumptions going on here...  Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.  I know plenty of college athletes on PEDs, basketball included.  

If you have an issue with helping someone cycle under the age of 25, that's fine.  I don't and I'm not going to stop giving advice.  I'd rather give them a clear path to not butchering it than just telling them not to, knowing full well they will just do it anyway.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Spongy said:


> So now everyone is assuming Phil Heath wasn't on steroids at 20?  Lots of assumptions going on here...  Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.  I know plenty of college athletes on PEDs, basketball included.
> 
> If you have an issue with helping someone cycle under the age of 25, that's fine.  I don't and I'm not going to stop giving advice.  I'd rather give them a clear path to not butchering it than just telling them not to, knowing full well they will just do it anyway.


I guess I don't really care if he was or was not.  Let's be honest with ourselves, I don't think there are that many top-level athletes on this board.  I know I am not and have no problem saying that I'm not.  I'm a dad of six that likes to work hard to look his best while balancing a career to keep everyone fed.  

I respect you Spongy but we will obviously always have differing opinions in this space.  If you can't look at some of what has been provided as well as your own moral compass and see that openly guiding youngsters into steroid usage is morally reprehensible then that is something I can't understand.

I get the "they are going to do it anyway" mentality.  In the interests of due diligence and process by those of us who are a little older and wiser why can't we do our best to try to talk them out of doing something of this nature?  Show them a better path?  Isn't that kind of our cross to bear as the older crew on the board?


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

I mean, we have a "First Cycle All you need to Know" thread already available.  If they want to read that and build themselves a cycle based on that, then I can't stop them.

Custom tailoring cycle advice for a kid is something I won't do.


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## Spongy (Mar 26, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> I mean, we have a "First Cycle All you need to Know" thread already available.  If they want to read that and build themselves a cycle based on that, then I can't stop them.
> 
> Custom tailoring cycle advice for a kid is something I won't do.



I dont think anyone is asking you to custom tailor a cycle or even asking you to stop telling a youngster it's in their best interest not to cycle.  The issue comes from members being so quick to cast judgement or cry foul on those that choose to give feedback.  I could honestly care less if 99% of the board goes into a thread and states "you shouldn't be cycling, here's why."  It's when those same members then begin to go on and on about how we shouldn't be "encouraging" these members to cycle, all under the guise of moral superiority that I have an issue.  

I'm not asking any of you to agree with me.  Make your own informed decision and decide what your own personal ethics allow for and then stick by your guns.  Just learn to respect other members decisions regarding this matter and if you can't do that, then stay out of the thread.

Also, please explain to me, in detail, how my decision to provide honest feedback to a cycle is morally reprehensible as you have stated.  Please.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

Spongy said:


> I dont think anyone is asking you to custom tailor a cycle or even asking you to stop telling a youngster it's in their best interest not to cycle.  The issue comes from members being so quick to cast judgement or cry foul on those that choose to give feedback.  I could honestly care less if 99% of the board goes into a thread and states "you shouldn't be cycling, here's why."  It's when those same members then begin to go on and on about how we shouldn't be "encouraging" these members to cycle, all under the guise of moral superiority that I have an issue.
> 
> I'm not asking any of you to agree with me.  Make your own informed decision and decide what your own personal ethics allow for and then stick by your guns.  Just learn to respect other members decisions regarding this matter and if you can't do that, then stay out of the thread.
> 
> Also, please explain to me, in detail, how my decision to provide honest feedback to a cycle is morally reprehensible as you have stated.  Please.


If you feel as though others are stating themselves to be morally superior that is a personal issue of your own design.  It's a lack of agreement on the matter.  Nothing more.

I find it morally reprehensible to be giving advice to youngsters on how to cycle because said advice implies consent and therefore encouragement in the eyes of a kid.  While you may not agree with what they are doing, your reply to their request for assistance with doing illegal drugs with no questioning as to their background, intent, knowledge level, commitment, etc. is something that communicates you don't care what the situation is.....if you wanna take some gear then have at it and I'll even help you.

This is very much a departure from where we stood as a board overall from the beginning.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 26, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> If you feel as though others are stating themselves to be morally superior that is a personal issue of your own design.  It's a lack of agreement on the matter.  Nothing more.
> 
> I find it morally reprehensible to be giving advice to youngsters on how to cycle because said advice implies consent and therefore encouragement in the eyes of a kid.  While you may not agree with what they are doing, your reply to their request for assistance with doing illegal drugs with no questioning as to their background, intent, knowledge level, commitment, etc. is something that communicates you don't care what the situation is.....if you wanna take some gear then have at it and I'll even help you.
> 
> This is very much a departure from where we stood as a board overall from the beginning.



You tell him it's morally reprehensible which is where the superiority comes from.

Let's ALL leave the ad hominem shit aside and argue the points.


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## HollyWoodCole (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> You tell him it's morally reprehensible which is where the superiority comes from.
> 
> Let's ALL leave the ad hominem shit aside and argue the points.


This does not mean I find myself superior to him.  I'm kind of done with it and have made multiple points for my argument.


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 26, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> I brought it up because of this idea that you can "see" genetic potential. Nobody thought this dood would be Mr. O.
> So everyone is cool with making exceptions for future ifbb pro bodybuilders. But how do you know when someone is a future ifbb pro?


I can see genetic potential and I don't think I'm the only one with that attribute. 

Nobody may have thought he could be a future Mr.O but those who have an eye for this stuff could've told you he could be a pro if wanted to be. African-Americans in general are better suited to bodybuilding due to a few key genetic advantages that they have (muscle fiber composition, etc). Add to that the fact we have data showing drastically  differing levels of response to training in terms of muscle growth (we're talking dudes who build 3lbs in a year vs 12-14 pounds, DRASTIC) but not so much strength. So, if I witness you lifting in the gym consistently for 1 year, I can tell whether you have what it takes to make it to the top or not. 

Genetic potential in bodybuilding is absolutely something you can "see".


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## snake (Mar 26, 2019)

Spongy said:


> If you have an issue with helping someone cycle under the age of 25, that's fine.  I don't and I'm not going to stop giving advice.  I'd rather give them a clear path to not butchering it than just telling them not to, knowing full well they will just do it anyway.


Would you also teach them the best way to drink and drive? Of course not. 
Like I said, treat them as your own son to me is the best approach.


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## Spongy (Mar 26, 2019)

snake said:


> Would you also teach them the best way to drink and drive? Of course not.
> Like I said, treat them as your own son to me is the best approach.



Of course not.  Drinking and driving almost killed my wife and left her paralyzed for an extended period of time. An innocent victim of a drunk asshole.


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## snake (Mar 26, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Genetic potential in bodybuilding is absolutely something you can "see".



I'm not so sure about that. Hear me out. Someone needs to have played their AAS card for their ultimate potential to been seen as a pro.

There use to an argument that in a world without drugs, those elite lifters would fair the same in the PED world. That seems reasonable that the same cream would rise to the top but it is untrue. With all things being equal, it's the response to those drugs that will ultimately determine how far you will go in the Pros.


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## Seeker (Mar 26, 2019)

You guys keep talking about elite athletes, pro athletes, genetically gifted athletes going for pro status in bodybuilding or any other sport. Let's not go off reality here.  98% of These young doods coming on our forum asking about AAS aren't any of the above. The young athlete who's about to get a full ride to college for his gifted sport talent isn't coming to ug Looking for advice on how to jewce. Lol that boy has someone already looking out for him. Theses young doods  coming on here are looking for a quick fix to Gainesville. also mostly looking for that hookup.  How many of them actually even stick around? Again, hardly any. Anyway, I've made up my mind. I'm staying out of those threads from now on. y'all knock yourselves out.


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## Spongy (Mar 26, 2019)

Seeker said:


> You guys keep talking about elite athletes, pro athletes, genetically gifted athletes going for pro status in bodybuilding or any other sport. Let's not go off reality here.  98% of These young doods coming on our forum asking about AAS aren't any of the above. The young athlete who's about to get a full ride to college for his gifted sport talent isn't coming to ug Looking for advice on how to jewce. Lol that boy has someone already looking out for him. Theses young doods  coming on here are looking for a quick fix to Gainesville. also mostly looking for that hookup.  How many of them actually even stick around? Again, hardly any. Anyway, I've made up my mind. I'm staying out of those threads from now on. y'all knock yourselves out.



Nothing but respect on ya Seek!  I certainly get your perspective and don't necessarily disagree.


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## Seeker (Mar 26, 2019)

Spongy said:


> Nothing but respect on ya Seek!  I certainly get your perspective and don't necessarily disagree.



respect to you as well, bro. sorry for the other day.


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## Spongy (Mar 26, 2019)

Seeker said:


> respect to you as well, bro. sorry for the other day.



No worries man, I was having a shit day.


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## Bro Bundy (Mar 26, 2019)

big dose /young era


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## jennerrator (Mar 26, 2019)

I'm just going to say.....................if my son wanted to use 18-35....I'd beat his ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Straight30weight (Mar 26, 2019)

Funny how alcohol/smoking/weed is acceptable but gear? Beat his ass lol


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## JuiceTrain (Mar 26, 2019)

I did my 1st cycle when I was 20....one of the best decision I've made
It's just a better quality of life (when done safely and correctly)


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## JuiceTrain (Mar 26, 2019)

If you can make an adult decision at 18 to join the military why can't that same kid make that same adult decision to use gear?

I'm pretty sure taking testosterone is safer than running around in a foreign land getting shot at...(no disrespect to anyone that served just a comparison)


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 26, 2019)

snake said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Hear me out. Someone needs to have played their AAS card for their ultimate potential to been seen as a pro.
> 
> There use to an argument that in a world without drugs, those elite lifters would fair the same in the PED world. That seems reasonable that the same cream would rise to the top but it is untrue. With all things being equal, it's the response to those drugs that will ultimately determine how far you will go in the Pros.


AAS doesn't change muscle shapes, attachments, bone structure, etc. I don't need to introduce AAS into the mix in order to know that a dude with a horrible shoulder to hip ratio probably isn't destined to do well on the stage. 

AAS doesn't change the process of muscle growth - it merely accelerates it. What AAS *does* teach us is how susceptible an individual is to its side effects, which is the limiting factor when it comes to increasing doses and, therefore, continuing to progress over time. It tells me nothing I didn't already know when it comes to how much muscle someone is actually likely to gain on your typical 600mg 12 week 1st cycle. This is subjective, you are entitled to disagree.  

Also, all things won't be equal. The elite natural is likely to have an easy 20-25 pound head start over the genetically average. The only way for that average dude to make up that inevitable difference is to start using straight away. Something I know neither of us are advocating.


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## jennerrator (Mar 26, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Funny how alcohol/smoking/weed is acceptable but gear? Beat his ass lol



Well....we aren't talking about weed and beer......weed I'm personally not into..nor have I drank a damn beer in 5 years...but if he wants to smoke weed (which he does)..I'm for that over steroids any day!


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## BigSwolePump (Mar 27, 2019)

I started cycling on my 6th birthday. I had the training wheels off by Christmas.


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## Jin (Mar 27, 2019)

BigSwolePump said:


> I started cycling on my 6th birthday. I had the training wheels off by Christmas.



OK, Kali Muscle.


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## dk8594 (Mar 27, 2019)

The side effects of AAS are glamorized by the media, but that doesn't mean they are without risks.  Knowing how I was at 20, I would have ignored them all, never gotten any blood work done, and gone with a more is better attitude. With that said,  I'd rather err on the side of telling the 1% of 20yr olds  who are genetically gifted not to use them, then err on the side of telling the hobbyist lifters that they should.


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## CJ (Mar 27, 2019)

I wonder what happens in the countries where they're legal?


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## snake (Mar 27, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> AAS doesn't change muscle shapes, attachments, bone structure, etc. I don't need to introduce AAS into the mix in order to know that a dude with a horrible shoulder to hip ratio probably isn't destined to do well on the stage.
> 
> AAS doesn't change the process of muscle growth - it merely accelerates it. What AAS *does* teach us is how susceptible an individual is to its side effects, which is the limiting factor when it comes to increasing doses and, therefore, continuing to progress over time. It tells me nothing I didn't already know when it comes to how much muscle someone is actually likely to gain on your typical 600mg 12 week 1st cycle. This is subjective, you are entitled to disagree.
> 
> Also, all things won't be equal. The elite natural is likely to have an easy 20-25 pound head start over the genetically average. The only way for that average dude to make up that inevitable difference is to start using straight away. Something I know neither of us are advocating.



To my point, you agree people differ with their results when they begin using?


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 27, 2019)

It's pretty simple. There's 3 options when some fuk boi comes around...

1. Say nothing (my choice. Or a little sarcasm)

2. Help the dink out

3. Go off like the high and mighty telling him how dumb he is and acting like his Dad.

Like seek said, his mind is made up and he's just looking for a source anyways.


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## snake (Mar 27, 2019)

DieYoungStrong said:


> It's pretty simple. There's 3 options when some fuk boi comes around...
> 
> 1. Say nothing (my choice. Or a little sarcasm)
> 
> ...



What makes high-and-mighty synonymous with fatherly advice?


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## snake (Mar 27, 2019)

Side note: I have made it a point to avoid first time posters who gear talk right out of the blocks.


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 27, 2019)

snake said:


> To my point, you agree people differ with their results when they begin using?


I never said they didn't. I do not agree with a natural elite getting worse results than a natural average, which is what you were implying.


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## snake (Mar 27, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I never said they didn't. I do not agree with a natural elite getting worse results than a natural average, which is what you were implying.



The possibility of the average natural getting better results from PED use over an elite does exist.

Now I don't want to put words in your mouth but we do know different people react different to different drugs. This ultimately will affect the final outcome.


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## jennerrator (Mar 27, 2019)

snake said:


> The possibility of the average natural getting better results from PED use over an elite does exist.
> 
> Now I don't want to put words in your mouth but we do know different people react different to different drugs. This ultimately will affect the final outcome.




So what I have thought about here and there is.........some folks think there is no way....Var makes folks loose hair.....so is it that it's not var every time someone looses their hair on it...they've been given something else.........................we have no idea how a persons body is going to handle anything or what they have been given.

Not to mention, steroids are just part of a goal unless there is no goal and folks just want to stay on gear forever...not counting TRT (if it's actually being used as TRT)


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 27, 2019)

snake said:


> What makes high-and-mighty synonymous with fatherly advice?



because we both have sons and know how much young men listen to their fathers at times.


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## BigSwolePump (Mar 27, 2019)

Jin said:


> OK, Kali Muscle.


LOL That dude is funny and dumb all rolled into one loud mouth turd


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## snake (Mar 27, 2019)

DieYoungStrong said:


> because we both have sons and know how much young men listen to their fathers at times.


To that, I agree. Funny how we achieve so much in all facets of our lives and still are viewed as dumb-asses.


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## gymrat827 (Mar 28, 2019)

im big on 21/22 cuz i started blast/cruise (ran cycle, did pct, waited 5wks and repeat) from 20-25

While i also drank a ton and didnt shy away from drugs either....


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## Elivo (Mar 29, 2019)

Id just refer them to the info that is already here about how to run a cycle. Maybe tell them to avoid the orals the first time around.  Id also probably tell them if they are too young that they should wait but if they are so inclined to do it then this is the right way to do it.

the ****tards id avoid all together


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