# Backing Off The Heavy Lifts



## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

Here's the facts:
48 Y.O.
5'-9"
215 lbs
Training since 15 Y.O. 

Now the issue:
I have always trained hard and heavy as a PL'er but as of late, injuries have taken their toll. I have one cycle of 400 mg test cyp under my belt last summer. I wanted to blast again with a little more in about a month. The problem is staying healthy. Since I'm an ol' school Sq./ Bench / DL guy its hard to see myself making any real gains by getting away from the heavy movements.

What I wanted to know is if it is possible to still build muscle without the heavy movements. Can I still grow my legs without squatting and just doing leg extensions and leg curls? I have a decent base but am I fooling myself by thinking I can look and be big with single jointed exercises? Has anyone been here or tried this?

Thanks for you time!


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## ECKSRATED (Mar 2, 2014)

Pro BBers do it man. They all built their bases with compound movements early in their careers but now most focus on hypertrophy type routines. Higher reps with lots of isolation exercises. 

For legs i would still do some sort of pressing movement like hacks or leg press. Don't know how big leg extensions will get your legs lol


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 2, 2014)

You can still do your compound movements. Do them in a dynamic fashion to take it easy though. Pick up a variety of bands from roguefitness.com or EliteFTS and maybe some chains.  Work on your speed.

For example on a squat day instead of doing 3 or 4 sets of squats with crushing bar weight, put on 225 but use the gray bands and just do doubles and triples. It won't be so heavy in the hole where you are vulnerable but you have to focus on exploding out of it and into the band tension.  Or you can do the opposite. Hang the bands from the top of the rack and onto the bar. Put a number that is higher than your 1RM. As you sink down the bands pick up some of the weight. Do that for doubles. Reverse band deads are great too.  You can rip 600 off the floor but the lock out is tough as hell.

Only thing about bands is go easy on bench day. The plyometric effect tends to be a bit much on my elbows. I prefer chains on bench.

A slingshot for benching is a great tool as well. Well worth the money.

Stay away from doing a 1RM. Only reason to do that is if you're on the platform.


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## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Pro BBers do it man. They all built their bases with compound movements early in their careers but now most focus on hypertrophy type routines. Higher reps with lots of isolation exercises.
> 
> For legs i would still do some sort of pressing movement like hacks or leg press. Don't know how big leg extensions will get your legs lol



My legs are pretty good compared to my top half, always has been. My single last year was 605 and I am so afraid that all my leg size is directly related big weights. Funny you said leg presses; that's the bitch that tweaked my quad. I'm also coming back from pec tendon surgery 5 months out.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 2, 2014)

Here's a link to an article which you might find encouraging (this from a fellow Grey Beard  )


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## Yaya (Mar 2, 2014)

I've backed off heavy lifts..

Due to my wrist... I've realized..I'm small and weak and I will deal with it


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## SFGiants (Mar 2, 2014)

Try the 5 3 1 program even the singles are actually around 85% of your true 1 rep max

Or

Just start doing reps of 6 9 12

No need to change the lift just change the % of weight.


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## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

NbleSavage said:


> Here's a link to an article which you might find encouraging (this from a fellow Grey Beard  )



I'm no stranger to the German Volume stuff but it was used for a vacation from the big weights. I never committed to it for any length of time. I think it has some nice features but only if you can incorporate it in the multi-joint movements. It is worth revisiting though. Thank you.


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## SFGiants (Mar 2, 2014)

By the way I'm 45 just to let you know I'm just not some kid giving advice on something I have no understanding about.


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## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> By the way I'm 45 just to let you know I'm just not some kid giving advice on something I have no understanding about.



I gotchya Bro! Ya, you'd think higher reps are safer, blew my pec out 5 months ago on a 10-6-6-6 on the bench. Tweaked my quad on a super-set with 15 reps. I'm starting to feel like a paper clip; you know, the one you can can bend back and forth 20x then....Snap!


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## ECKSRATED (Mar 2, 2014)

Snake do u go to failure on most of your lifts?


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## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Snake do u go to failure on most of your lifts?



Typically, I will do 4 sets and add lbs each set. Last set, can't get another rep.


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## snake (Mar 2, 2014)

I just have a real fear of injury. Never had that before, even up to last year it was a "Bring it on" mind set I had. Now it's like I'm waiting for something to pop. I think can back off the weight, just not the intensity. Doc told me if I injure that pec tendon again, he may not be able to fix it next time.


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## Tren4Life (Mar 3, 2014)

snake said:


> Typically, I will do 4 sets and add lbs each set. Last set, can't get another rep.



To me that's going to failure. 
The first thing I would do is a deload week. Just do a week of no more than 50 % of your 1rm. Do 3 to 5 sets of 10 and call it good for the day. It will help you recover.


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## Seeker (Mar 3, 2014)

A friend of mine who is in his early fifties swears by speed high reps with isolation exercises. Just like it sounds..you're using high reps at a fast pace.. once you start to feel the burn then you slow it down and continue at a normal pace, at this point you're muscles are ready to explode, and now you do a couple of rest pauses to finish.  I tried this on a couple of machines, one was the incline chest, and the other was the shoulder press. Damn! I was in pain. This friend is a well known pro and he looks incredible today for his age. His name is Gary Strydom.

There are a number of other methods you can use to keep getting gains with light or moderate weights.

Time under tension.
Super sets, tri sets, and Giant sets.
Drop sets.
Pre exhaust.

Hope this gives you some ideas to look into.


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## BigGameHunter (Mar 3, 2014)

I go with straight body weight routines.  Hindu squats, push ups, pull ups dips and back bridges.  I swear by it.  Your core strength and endurance will explode.  I recovered from a torn peck years ago and a knee injury trust me it works.  You can go hard and make good gains without getting hurt worse, while you heal.  When you go back to the weights your going to be surprised by what you can do once that core gets better and those injuries go away.

I still do them as a warm up 

You get to the point where you can do 300+ hindu  squats without stopping your legs will stay massive


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## Joliver (Mar 3, 2014)

The foundation of westside training is a conjugate system.  Finding comparative lifts to the big three and finding progression in those lifts with the anticipation that the strength gained in those conjugate lifts carryover to the PLing lifts.  

Also, repetition adds strength.  If I am stalling out, I evaluate my training volume (everyone PLer should keep a training journal) and assess whether I am under enough volume to be able to both hypertrophy and get stronger.  

I don't think you are running into a huge problem.  I believe you are losing confidence in your current strategy.  Progressive overload is doom to a high level lifter.  When you are roaming into the kinds of poundage that you are working with, you must find confidence in both your training program, and you body.  

I said all of that shit to say this:  You don't HAVE to constantly bombard yourself with 1-3 rep maxes on the squat, bench, or deadlift.  You can progress those lifts with an appropriate conjugate program.  Also, you must realize that strength is developed via repetition and force development is acquired via dynamic work.


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## Big Worm (Mar 3, 2014)

Ive seen more injuries from the high rep going to failure style.  Lose form and get sloppy or just extreme muscle fatigue causes shit to break.


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## Joliver (Mar 3, 2014)

Big Worm said:


> Ive seen more injuries from the high rep going to failure style.  Lose form and get sloppy or just extreme muscle fatigue causes shit to break.



Good point Worm. Which brings me to my next point:  Don't mix methodologies in the same workout.  If you decide you are going to rep, and end up doing max 3's....I hope you like your HMO.


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## snake (Mar 3, 2014)

Seeker said:


> A friend of mine who is in his early fifties swears by speed high reps with isolation exercises. Just like it sounds..you're using high reps at a fast pace.. once you start to feel the burn then you slow it down and continue at a normal pace, at this point you're muscles are ready to explode, and now you do a couple of rest pauses to finish.  I tried this on a couple of machines, one was the incline chest, and the other was the shoulder press. Damn! I was in pain. This friend is a well known pro and he looks incredible today for his age. His name is Gary Strydom.
> 
> There are a number of other methods you can use to keep getting gains with light or moderate weights.
> 
> ...



Gary Strydom? That name did ring a bell and after a Google I remember why. I may be wrong but I think I saw him at the first Arnold Classic in Ohio! That is a man who I wouldn't mind sharing a beer with. What a wealth of information you have there as a friend. It's makes me feel better when I hear other guys are still at it, even if it is a guy that I could never hold a candle too. Inspiring, thank you!


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## snake (Mar 3, 2014)

joliver said:


> The foundation of westside training is a conjugate system.  Finding comparative lifts to the big three and finding progression in those lifts with the anticipation that the strength gained in those conjugate lifts carryover to the PLing lifts.
> 
> Also, repetition adds strength.  If I am stalling out, I evaluate my training volume (everyone PLer should keep a training journal) and assess whether I am under enough volume to be able to both hypertrophy and get stronger.
> 
> ...



I agree with everthing you say joliver. It just goes against my beliefs that to build size and maintain it you need the heavy multi- jointed exercises. As for singles and triples; other then 2 triples and 1 single in my squat, the lowest I have gone in years is 5’s. I knew long ago that the risk in triples far exceeded any possible reward. Even when PLing, I pushed my limits but always got all 9 lifts.


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## stonetag (Mar 3, 2014)

snake said:


> I just have a real fear of injury. Never had that before, even up to last year it was a "Bring it on" mind set I had. Now it's like I'm waiting for something to pop. I think can back off the weight, just not the intensity. Doc told me if I injure that pec tendon again, he may not be able to fix it next time.


I am at that crossroad now, and have been for a while. It is a total mind fuk to make that transition from "bring it on" to "I need to cool it on the heavy". I get "jacked" on compounds, and my common sense goes out the window, and I continue to squeak out gains. I have told myself time and time again that something is going to "pop" like you say. When you look good and feel good, cutting back is an extremely hard road to take. I have recently started to work out with a gal from work, or I should say, she with me. She is a wildlife biologist, and has a huge understanding of a mammals body (which we do fit into this area). Without getting into the science end of things, she tells me to decrease my output (poundage) in a tapering fashion, while tapering up in reps. OK well, this is no news flash by any means, but she says muscle fibers will also adapt to this by using all fibers of the muscle, and maintain some hard earned mass. AAS usage when dropped, will cause some mass loss. The bottom line is if a person wants to keep the lifting lifestyle up into their later years, and not have an injury that will limit that, think it through, and do the right thing.


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## snake (Mar 3, 2014)

stonetag,

It's hard to explain fear of injury to someone that is younger; heck, the younger me would have called myself an old pussy! One thing I have always pounded into my children's head when it comes to individual sports is this; the guy who wins is not always the fastest or strongest, he’s usually the healthiest.


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## Joliver (Mar 3, 2014)

I tore my tricep and quad.  I still have problems locking out my right arm in the bench. I understand.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 3, 2014)

snake said:


> I agree with everthing you say joliver. It just goes against my beliefs that to build size and maintain it you need the heavy multi- jointed exercises. As for singles and triples; other then 2 triples and 1 single in my squat, the lowest I have gone in years is 5’s. I knew long ago that the risk in triples far exceeded any possible reward. Even when PLing, I pushed my limits but always got all 9 lifts.



You may not NEED heavy multi-joint lifts to build and maintain muscle but they are by far the most effective lifts at accomplishing anything fitness related. The CNS activation, systemic fatigue and adaptation, the amount of muscle percentage utilized, etc cannot be accomplished with machines or isolation exercises.


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## Joliver (Mar 3, 2014)

You can still use the major lifts, but you simply have to reevaluate how you use them.


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## snake (Mar 3, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You may not NEED heavy multi-joint lifts to build and maintain muscle but they are by far the most effective lifts at accomplishing anything fitness related. The CNS activation, systemic fatigue and adaptation, the amount of muscle percentage utilized, etc cannot be accomplished with machines or isolation exercises.



Thanks Doc, you're a wealth of knowledge! That being said; dance with me on this one.

Since my personal experience with what few injuries I have had, all be it very catastrophic ones, has been at the point of full contraction where the muscle has been completely elongated. Give me your thoughts on partial movements and its load on the muscles. Do partials reduce the probability of injury while still loading the muscle?

Thanks!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 3, 2014)

snake said:


> Thanks Doc, you're a wealth of knowledge! That being said; dance with me on this one.
> 
> Since my personal experience with what few injuries I have had, all be it very catastrophic ones, has been at the point of full contraction where the muscle has been completely elongated. Give me your thoughts on partial movements and its load on the muscles. Do partials reduce the probability of injury while still loading the muscle?
> 
> Thanks!



Not necessarily. Doing partial movements will only get you stronger in the ROM you're engaging and doing something like a half squat is more dangerous than a full squat. Doing a partial squat will place a lateral shearing force on the knee since the hams and glutes don't get activated much until you hit parallel. This is a leading cause of athletic ACL injuries since the hams provide the opposing force to the quads.THe muscle should be worked through the full ROM unless you're using partials to target a weak spot in the ROM IMO.


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## PillarofBalance (Mar 3, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Not necessarily. Doing partial movements will only get you stronger in the ROM you're engaging .



I don't want to over complicate the issue but that's not entirely true. Overloading with partials is a good way to break a sticking point in some cases.


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## DieYoungStrong (Mar 3, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I don't want to over complicate the issue but that's not entirely true. Overloading with partials is a good way to break a sticking point in some cases.



* See rack pulls for an easy example.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Mar 3, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I don't want to over complicate the issue but that's not entirely true. Overloading with partials is a good way to break a sticking point in some cases.



Very true but I thought Snake was talking about using partials as his regular training. Work.


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## snake (Mar 3, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Very true but I thought Snake was talking about using partials as his regular training. Work.



I was thinking maybe partials for a finish up. Leg ex. Leg curls then some 1/4 squats. I've been thinking about it since you got my mind on it; everyone seems to like dips for tri's and pec work, that's kind of a partial there right?


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