# Bloods suck after PCT - is it TRT time?



## JimGainz (Sep 10, 2016)

Hey guys.  I'm new here and was impressed with the quality information and participation in this forum. Wondering if I can get your thoughts on this. 

I am a 50 y/o very experienced lifter and former AAS user (going back to the 80s). My natty T levels ranged from low 400s to 660 (as of December 2015). 

I ran a 10 week cycle of SARMs this spring (Osatarine and Rad140) at low doses compared to most (12.5 mg and 5 mg respectively). 

I had great gains but it crashed my T levels to < 100 and my HDL to 35 (down from 97).  FSH and LH were in the very low normal range 

I ran a 3.5 week Nolvadex PCT (obtained from my SARMs source) and felt great. Waited another month and got bloods and then started another Ostarine cycle. (Note - I've been taking MK677 since PCT). 

Bloods came back and as you can see below my T and HDL barely moved:  

New bloods are as follows:
HDL 39
total Cholesterol 124
LDL 77
Total testosterone- 179
Free Testosterone  56 (35-155 ref)
FSH 1.9 (1.6-8)
LH (2.1 (1.9 -9.3)
Estrogen 128 (60-190)


Seems like I may have gotten some crap Nolvadex (or else it didn't work for me). 

My options are to run a PCT again, or, a doc buddy of mine said he would prescribe me some HCG and Aromidex and I can run some AndroGel with it (effectively putting me on TRT – but he said the hCG would help read the test level. He said to obtain clinical benefit of testosterone – I would need to be in the 800 range and that the HCG will keep the factory working - so I could cycle off if I wanted and go back to natural. 

If it were you - and you had a decent normal T but not optimal - would you do as he suggested or just try some pharma grade Clomid and see how things go? One issue is trying to get HCG covered by insurance but that's another issue. 

Thanks brothers!


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 10, 2016)

Your pct is missing clomid. Have your buddy script you for hcg nolva and clomid.

For the hcg run 
Week 1
250iu eod
Week 2
500iu eod
Week 3
Clomid 50 and nolva 40 

Continue the nolva and clomid like that for 6 weeks.

Get bloods a few weeks after that.

Or just say **** it and get on trt.


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## JimGainz (Sep 10, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> Your pct is missing clomid. Have your buddy script you for hcg nolva and clomid.
> 
> For the hcg run
> Week 1
> ...



Thank you!  Should I run the AI (I assume so with the HCG) but if I can't get the HCG due to insurance - should I run anyway?

Lastly, is there a benefit to running both Nolva and Clo, or would Clo do the trick?  

Sorry for the noob questions


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 10, 2016)

JimGainz said:


> Thank you!  Should I run the AI (I assume so with the HCG) but if I can't get the HCG due to insurance - should I run anyway?
> 
> Lastly, is there a benefit to running both Nolva and Clo, or would Clo do the trick?
> 
> Sorry for the noob questions



The AI won't be needed.  Yes there is a benefit to running nolva and clomid. We have a thread on it somewhere in the pct forum. Go look for it and it will answer your question.


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## Ryand (Sep 11, 2016)

JimGainz said:


> Thank you!  Should I run the AI (I assume so with the HCG) but if I can't get the HCG due to insurance - should I run anyway?
> 
> Lastly, is there a benefit to running both Nolva and Clo, or would Clo do the trick?
> 
> Sorry for the noob questions



Man aside from your problem, you are f'ing set lol -- get your buddy to mail me some scripts lol.

Insurance will most likely only pay for clomid or nolva. But run both together for sure. 

Regardless of the insurance run the nolva/clomid/HCG.

(Avoid taking the gel b/c like you said, that is essentially TRT it will not help you recover).


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## JimGainz (Sep 13, 2016)

I started the Nolva and Clomid but won't have access to HCG until next week. Is that a problem if I run the HCG after starting Serms?  (Can I run them all together?). I heard that HCG can suppress LH even though it raises testosterone


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## Beefcake (Sep 14, 2016)

If I had a doc friend I'd go on TRT, but I'm 42.  Or have him prescribe you a cycle of test for the next round.  Can he give me a script for TRT too?  What were the results of this sarm cycle?  Curious to see if it's worth it or not?


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## JimGainz (Sep 14, 2016)

Beefcake said:


> If I had a doc friend I'd go on TRT, but I'm 42.  Or have him prescribe you a cycle of test for the next round.  Can he give me a script for TRT too?  What were the results of this sarm cycle?  Curious to see if it's worth it or not?



I did a low dose 10 week cycle of Rad140 (2.5-5 mg/day and Ostsrine 5-15mg/day). Most guys run 20-30mg/ day. I had great gains - lost about 2 inches off my waist - added 1 inch on my arms and body fat dropped at least 5 percent. All in - I gained about 7 lbs of muscle and kept most of it. 

However – don't believe any of the BS that Sarms  are not suppressive. They dropped my total T over 500 ng/dl. My LH was at the very bottom of normal – so I was still producing testosterone – which may be more tthanI would get if I was running a traditional AAS cycle. For me personally – I would stick with the Sarms. I'm 50 and don't want to be dealing with any liver toxicity,  PSA or any of the other crap. The Sarms do what they say in that they are very specific to the androgen receptors so they bypass affecting liver, prostrate and kidneys. My blood tests confirmed this. 

You mentioned you were 42 – when I was your age my testosterone level started going down each year – till bottoming out in the low 400s. I did my own research and found that I had a vitamin D deficiency – when I jacked that up my test got back to over 600. 

So now – three months after my sarms cycle – my total T is still only 170 - but honestly – I really don't have the symptoms and I am still making great gains. I am also running MK677. If I could recommend one product it would be that one – it naturally helps you secrete more growth hormone – and you could run it for months at a time – has tremendous healing powers, give you fantastic pumps, great for the skin t–the list goes on and on. 

My dr. friend was also my best friend in college – and he and I used to cycle steroids quite a bit back in the 80s. He's taking some Androgel and hCG and his total testosterone jumped to 1800. He wants to put me on it – but he is a cardiologist – and does not realize the potential for hCG to crash my already low LH values.   He's looking at it more from the standpoint of raising my total testosterone – which would also help raise my HDL, and get gains – and essentially his feeling is **** it – go on TRT and get jacked. I'm trying to proceed more cautiously.


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## Beefcake (Sep 14, 2016)

Not sure if running sarms and then clomid and novlva will bounce you back to normal.  I'm interested to see.  You ran this cycle without a proper PCT plan in place.  Also with AAS they recommend time on = time off.  Not sure if 10 weeks on then 3.5 off will hinder your natty levels.  I'll wait until more experienced users chime in.  Keep me posted as to how your recovery goes.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 14, 2016)

You need to get off everything besides the nolva and clomid. If you can't get HCG now then either wait to start the SERMs until you do get it or just don't use it if you start the SERMs now. 

About 2wks into the SERM treatment, get bloods to verify the SERMs are legit, if they're not straight from a pharmacy, but also to see if you're responding to the treatment.


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## JimGainz (Sep 15, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> You need to get off everything besides the nolva and clomid. If you can't get HCG now then either wait to start the SERMs until you do get it or just don't use it if you start the SERMs now.
> 
> About 2wks into the SERM treatment, get bloods to verify the SERMs are legit, if they're not straight from a pharmacy, but also to see if you're responding to the treatment.



Is it possible to restart HTPA without Serms?  I'm having anxiety / restlessness ever since starting the Serms - driving me crazy - can't sleep and I used to sleep like a tranquillized rhino.  (I'm only taking 50 mg Clomid and 20 Nolva)

What if I stopped the Serms and then did HCG and let it ride or would that be worse since my LH would tank even if Test went up?


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## tunafisherman (Sep 15, 2016)

You say you are experienced with AAS but don't know a proper PCT?  and now you are talking about coming off the Serms before everything is run as it should be??

Comeon bro...this can't be serious.


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## JimGainz (Sep 15, 2016)

tunafisherman said:


> You say you are experienced with AAS but don't know a proper PCT?  and now you are talking about coming off the Serms before everything is run as it should be??
> 
> Comeon bro...this can't be serious.



Well - I can tell you that back in the 80s no one used toPCT - we just tapered and dealt with the sides.  I'm definitely not advocating that at all. 

I've been doing some research this morning and I think the Clomid is what's screwing me up.   I may have to try just Nolva with an AI. ****ing Clomid is keeping me up all night making me anxious – and I swear to god my hair is starting to fall out and I'm only taking 50 mg / day.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 15, 2016)

JimGainz said:


> Is it possible to restart HTPA without Serms?  I'm having anxiety / restlessness ever since starting the Serms - driving me crazy - can't sleep and I used to sleep like a tranquillized rhino.  (I'm only taking 50 mg Clomid and 20 Nolva)
> 
> What if I stopped the Serms and then did HCG and let it ride or would that be worse since my LH would tank even if Test went up?



It's possible without SERMs but it will take a considerably longer time. 

No, HCG monotherapy is not going to restart the HPTA. HCG is used to keep or re-sensitize your Leydig cells in the testes to the LH signal. Bc it's an LH analog it will shut down your natural LH production at the pituitary. I didn't see bloods posted so I'm not sure if you're on the crusp of primary, secondary, or not even hypo but doing something else wrong. Do you have any bloods you can post? What were you taking at the time of these bloods? For how long? Etc.


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## JimGainz (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm giving in and going on some TRT. My doc had been pushing this for months because my T levels were all over the place - and since I'm 50 - they are only going to decline so what the ****. Got some Androgel, HCG and Aromidex coming my way.


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## JimGainz (Sep 17, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> It's possible without SERMs but it will take a considerably longer time.
> 
> No, HCG monotherapy is not going to restart the HPTA. HCG is used to keep or re-sensitize your Leydig cells in the testes to the LH signal. Bc it's an LH analog it will shut down your natural LH production at the pituitary. I didn't see bloods posted so I'm not sure if you're on the crusp of primary, secondary, or not even hypo but doing something else wrong. Do you have any bloods you can post? What were you taking at the time of these bloods? For how long? Etc.



Hi. 

New bloods are as follows:
HDL 39
total Cholesterol 124
LDL 77
Total testosterone- 179
Free Testosterone  56 (35-155 ref)
FSH 1.9 (1.6-8)
LH (2.1 (1.9 -9.3)
Estrogen 128 (60-190)

Everything else was normal (glucose, liver, kidney, etc)

This was over 2 months Post SARMs cycle (which I ran very low dose compared to others: 2.5-5 mg Rad140 and 12.5-15 Ostarine for 10 weeks. 

My Pct was Nolavadex 20/15/15 with Mk677 (a GH secretegog (sp) at 12.5 mg / day. 

I stayed on the MK677 since it has continually provided some nice benefits and I've read this substance can be taken for months. 

By way of reference, my normal bloods taken 6-months pre-cycle showed a total T of 660, HDL 97, LDL 80 and total cholesterol 185 (I didn't measure the other values except directly at the end of my cycle  at which point my Total T was 77 Ng/dl, free T was 35 and Fsh / LH were nearly exactly where they are now). 

Other than low libido and no morning wood (although I am 50 and expect that) I honestly didn't feel bad at all even with my T being so low and have kept all my gains from the cycle and continually improve body composition (maybe from MK677 but also I eat and train like a horse). 

Would appreciate your thoughts and thanks for taking the time. 

One last thing - My T levels have been sporadic the last several years bottoming out at 425 in 2014. I found I had a D deficiency and supplemented that which seemed to help rebound it. My current doc (who is a Cardiologist by the way as well as a close friend from college) advocates TRT in his health clinic. For me, having known me most of my life, said that I was experience some low T symptoms even though my values at the time were in the 500-600 Ng/dl. And because I was an absolute beast in college naturally, he surmised that these values are "low for me" and I should try to get my T to over 800 Ng/dl to get the clinical benefit. He said my T is only going to go down and I would continue to have symptoms so he prescribed HCG with Androgel and .5mg Aromidex to "see how I feel".  I just started with 2 pumps of Androgel 1.62% and I feel better. 

Do you think I'm jumping the gun on this?


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## JimGainz (Sep 23, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> It's possible without SERMs but it will take a considerably longer time.
> 
> No, HCG monotherapy is not going to restart the HPTA. HCG is used to keep or re-sensitize your Leydig cells in the testes to the LH signal. Bc it's an LH analog it will shut down your natural LH production at the pituitary. I didn't see bloods posted so I'm not sure if you're on the crusp of primary, secondary, or not even hypo but doing something else wrong. Do you have any bloods you can post? What were you taking at the time of these bloods? For how long? Etc.



Hi. A quick follow up. I got HCG and Arimidex and just started dosing at 500cc /.5mg eod per my doc. He wants to keep me on this along with a few pumps of Androgel and retest in about 6 weeks. 

My goal is to get off everything as soon as possible - assuming I can get my natural test levels back up. 

So - would you recommend continuing HCG to bring up test and then doing some Serms. There was a post above that laid out a protocol that I will likely follow. (I.e 2 weeks of HCG and then 6 weeks of Serms) But wouldn't taking HCG for two weeks crash my already Low LH and make a restart harder?  Also I assume I should stop low-dose Androgel with HCG if I hopped on a Serm in two weeks. Thanks!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 23, 2016)

JimGainz said:


> Hi. A quick follow up. I got HCG and Arimidex and just started dosing at 500cc /.5mg eod per my doc. He wants to keep me on this along with a few pumps of Androgel and retest in about 6 weeks.
> 
> My goal is to get off everything as soon as possible - assuming I can get my natural test levels back up.
> 
> So - would you recommend continuing HCG to bring up test and then doing some Serms. There was a post above that laid out a protocol that I will likely follow. (I.e 2 weeks of HCG and then 6 weeks of Serms) But wouldn't taking HCG for two weeks crash my already Low LH and make a restart harder?  Also I assume I should stop low-dose Androgel with HCG if I hopped on a Serm in two weeks. Thanks!



Correct, you would need to stop the androgel for anything to be effective. 

The HCG will tank LH but it stimulates your Leydig cells and jump starts the process of test production. The SERMs finish it off. 


Look up Dr. Scally's restart protocol. He's got the only one with any evidence behind it. It uses HCG, nolva and clomid


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## JimGainz (Oct 18, 2016)

Just continuing this thread as a sort of log on recovery....

Been blasting HCG 500IU Eod for three weeks and all I can say is holy shit this stuff works. Latest bloods are as follows:

Total T 962 Ng/dl (250-1100)
Free T 250 pg/ml (35-150) 
LH 0.2 (1.5-9.3)
Estradiol 60 pg/ml (<39). H
Cholesterol 174
Hdl 79
LDL 82
PSA 0.8
Prolactin 5

All other values are normal 

So the HCG has definitely jacked up my T levels from my last labs in a short timeframe. No wonder I've been feeling great. I need to get my Estrogen down. I've been currently taking .25mg Adex 2x/week but will bump it to .5mg Eod -

 The next phase of this protocol – is to run some Nolvadex while stopping the hCG. I have an appointment with an Endo on Friday – hopefully he will get me some – otherwise I'm going to have to hit some underground labs or research sites. There's also part of me that wants to just stay on this and cruise at a nice healthy testosterone range around 1000.


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## bronco (Oct 19, 2016)

JimGainz said:


> Just continuing this thread as a sort of log on recovery....
> 
> Been blasting HCG 500IU Eod for three weeks and all I can say is holy shit this stuff works. Latest bloods are as follows:
> 
> ...



Did the HCG come from your doc?


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## JimGainz (Oct 19, 2016)

bronco said:


> Did the HCG come from your doc?



Yes indeed. Taking legit Pregnyl. Had to get it from a compound pharmacy - paying $120 per 10,000IU bottle 

By the way – things are going so well – I'm kind of thinking about just staying on this – my doctor thought I was crazy for even wanting to come off and start a serm. He's actually advocating adding some testosterone  monitoring over the next month – and then ultimately lowering the hCG depending on where I end up with my testosterone. L


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## JimGainz (Dec 7, 2016)

Ok - got great bloods back after 3 weeks HCG and 4 week's Clomid: 

Total Test was 900 and Free T 150 with LH/FSH in the midrange. This was done on,y running Clomid 12.5 mg/day because that's all I could tolerate. Ran some Arimidex here and there. I can't believe I've recovered on that low a dose. I'll check labs in a month to see how the HPTA is holding up but this is great news!


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## therealkozmo (Dec 17, 2016)

clomid half life is between 5 and 7 days. How long after your last clomid dose did you get blood draw.


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## JimGainz (Dec 28, 2016)

therealkozmo said:


> clomid half life is between 5 and 7 days. How long after your last clomid dose did you get blood draw.



It was actually the day after so I realize the results are skewed. I am waiting about 5 or six weeks to draw again to see where I end up. Will post back with results.


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