# Lessons Learned: SubQ Test Injections



## dk8594 (Dec 19, 2014)

There are other posts about sub q test injections, but I thought I'd throw out my experience with them for anyone who is thinking about.

Up until about 3 months ago, I was using test cream with good results.  Felt great, numbers were good, etc.  Then, not sure if I wasn't absorbing it well, or if it was a bad batch, but my levels dropped and I felt like complete crap.  I'd heard about how injection was the way to so I thought I'd switch to test c to see if it would make a difference.  I did my due diligence, found a good source, learned about injections, and in my journey came across John Crisler's video about sub q being his preferred delivery method.    Truth be told, the IM injections scared the crap out of me, so I gave sub Q a try for 3 weeks.  

The experience sucked.  My levels were not great, not terrible, but ok.  What sucked about it though was that the test didn't dissipate well and I was left with multiple knots under my skin that were painful to the  touch (for the record I was doing .5 ml 2x a week and rotating injection sites).  Needless to say, my experience with sub q sucked, and that doesn't include the time I went too deep and ended up in my abs (holy shit painful!)

I'm just putting it out there in case anyone else is considering it.  I've switched to IM injections.  My numbers are back in the high range and I'm feeling great.    The lessons learned that I want to share with the others on therapy:

1) Test C is better than the cream
2) The first IM  injection is scary as hell, but totally worth it.


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## goodfella (Dec 20, 2014)

Glade to hear your number are back up and you finally made the choice to IM it! Heard of guys trying to pin tren subq cus apparently cuts down sides, but then I'm thinking to myself your just gaining a side with the knocks you'll be getting lol.


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 20, 2014)

ive had dr tell me IM injection will work better then sub Q for test..Im no DR so im not sure why but i listen to the DRs


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## Flyingdragon (Dec 20, 2014)

I have been doing subq for almost a year with no issues.  Yes there will on occasion form a knot, but so what, its only a knot.....


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## jennerrator (Dec 20, 2014)

dk8594 said:


> There are other posts about sub q test injections, but I thought I'd throw out my experience with them for anyone who is thinking about.
> 
> Up until about 3 months ago, I was using test cream with good results.  Felt great, numbers were good, etc.  Then, not sure if I wasn't absorbing it well, or if it was a bad batch, but my levels dropped and I felt like complete crap.  I'd heard about how injection was the way to so I thought I'd switch to test c to see if it would make a difference.  I did my due diligence, found a good source, learned about injections, and in my journey came across John Crisler's video about sub q being his preferred delivery method.    Truth be told, the IM injections scared the crap out of me, so I gave sub Q a try for 3 weeks.
> 
> ...



I can honestly say I had the same issue. I had researched about subq for TRT and read a lot of good stuff but felt like it wasn't working the way it should..as soon as I switched to IM with a slin pin to the delts all was great!


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 20, 2014)

what if u shoot 3cc? u cant do the sub Q right


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 20, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> what if u shoot 3cc? u cant do the sub Q right


Nobody knows bundy so please go ahead and test that for us


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 20, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Nobody knows bundy so please go ahead and test that for us



no thank u boss...as our leader u should try first


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## mickems (Dec 20, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> what if u shoot 3cc? u cant do the sub Q right



That would look like a beer gut but, full of test.


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## Infantry87 (Dec 20, 2014)

Try a cc of tne pre workout... Bet that sub q shit will be left at the door after that awesome fail


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## conan (Dec 20, 2014)

Tried sub q a few times and every single time it left a small knot under the skin.  It's also way more painful than IM injections, almost like a burning sensation.  It may just be personal experience, and I just don't jive well with it.  IMO IM is the way to go.


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## Flyingdragon (Dec 20, 2014)

I shoot 1ml of TNE 4 times a week with no issues sub q....Once in a blue moon there will be a knot but I chalk that up as bad needle placement.....


Infantry87 said:


> Try a cc of tne pre workout... Bet that sub q shit will be left at the door after that awesome fail


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## Infantry87 (Dec 20, 2014)

Flyingdragon said:


> I shoot 1ml of TNE 4 times a week with no issues sub q....Once in a blue moon there will be a know but I chalk that up as bad needle placement.....



Most likely was. I just couldn't handle the pain I felt the day after. Almost like a huge bee sting that I couldn't rub or scratch.


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## Flyingdragon (Dec 21, 2014)

Where r u injecting, I only inject in the quads, sometimes when I go low on the quad I seem to have more issues than when I stay in the middle or up higher....Sometimes u have to pin in different locations until u find the area that will get u the least problems....





Infantry87 said:


> Most likely was. I just couldn't handle the pain I felt the day after. Almost like a huge bee sting that I couldn't rub or scratch.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 21, 2014)

I think people need to be aware that subq injections would increase estrogen more than IM.

This is because not only will test bind to aromatase once it hits the bloodstream, but there is a significant amount of aromatase present within the skin and fat tissue. This means the test would be directly exposed to more aromatase through subq - elevating estrogen more than during IM. 

Something to consider for the subq users


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## Flyingdragon (Dec 21, 2014)

Estrogen levels rise when Test levels rise, so what is your point?


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## goodfella (Dec 21, 2014)

Hahaha Im sorry but I can't help but laugh at everyone that tried pinning test or any oil subq LMAO Yeah more than likely, it's going to burn!

Anyways, from a medical stand point, pinning sub is (shaking my head lol) not meant to be (weather it works for you or not or is to cut down on scare tissue). A few reasons. All of the oil isn't going to be absorbed subq due to the layer of fat everyone has (even if your sub4%). The burning that usually occurs and as well the knots also, that all happen for a reason too. If gear was meant to be pinned subq, they would have been designed to be pinned that way instead of im. They're made to be pinned im for a reason... 

But hey I still think someone shud go a head try pinning 3 cc's subq and tell about it, so I can have a good laugh. lol


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 21, 2014)

Flyingdragon said:


> Estrogen levels rise when Test levels rise, so what is your point?



I'm assuming your not blind so read what I said again:



MrRippedZilla said:


> I think people need to be aware that subq injections would increase estrogen *more than IM*.



I also explained exactly why this is so I will not repeat myself again here.


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## goodfella (Dec 21, 2014)

Flyingdragon said:


> Estrogen levels rise when Test levels rise, so what is your point?



Example:

His point is that when you pin subq (instead of im) your estro levels are going to be this much ------------------------------- higher, than if you were going to pin IM...
Hence your ester levels would be this high if you pinned im compared to if you were pinning subq ---------------------- (just a example)

Basically is saying no matter how high your estrogen is from test levels rising, it's going to be HIGHER if you pin subq

You get it???


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## jennerrator (Dec 21, 2014)

goodfella said:


> Hahaha Im sorry but I can't help but laugh at everyone that tried pinning test or any oil subq LMAO Yeah more than likely, it's going to burn!
> 
> Anyways, from a medical stand point, pinning sub is (shaking my head lol) not meant to be (weather it works for you or not or is to cut down on scare tissue). A few reasons. All of the oil isn't going to be absorbed subq due to the layer of fat everyone has (even if your sub4%). The burning that usually occurs and as well the knots also, that all happen for a reason too. If gear was meant to be pinned subq, they would have been designed to be pinned that way instead of im. They're made to be pinned im for a reason...
> 
> But hey I still think someone shud go a head try pinning 3 cc's subq and tell about it, so I can have a good laugh. lol



I pinned my test p for quite a while with no knots or pain...it's all in where you are injecting and it can be tricky  anyone who does it in the abs needs to be smacked up side the head lol


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 21, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I'm assuming your not blind so read what I said again:
> 
> 
> 
> I also explained exactly why this is so I will not repeat myself again here.



take it easy tough guy..Im not into sub q pinning for test either but talk to fd with respect hes been in this game longer then u have been alive..have a nice day


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 21, 2014)

goodfella said:


> Hahaha Im sorry but I can't help but laugh at everyone that tried pinning test or any oil subq LMAO Yeah more than likely, it's going to burn!
> 
> Anyways, from a medical stand point, pinning sub is (shaking my head lol) not meant to be (weather it works for you or not or is to cut down on scare tissue). A few reasons. All of the oil isn't going to be absorbed subq due to the layer of fat everyone has (even if your sub4%). The burning that usually occurs and as well the knots also, that all happen for a reason too. If gear was meant to be pinned subq, they would have been designed to be pinned that way instead of im. They're made to be pinned im for a reason...
> 
> But hey I still think someone shud go a head try pinning 3 cc's subq and tell about it, so I can have a good laugh. lol



AAS can be pinned sub q. There are many many people who do so. They're even doing studies on it although several have already been done. You shouldn't be pinning 3cc of anything sub q.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 21, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I think people need to be aware that subq injections would increase estrogen more than IM.
> 
> This is because not only will test bind to aromatase once it hits the bloodstream, but there is a significant amount of aromatase present within the skin and fat tissue. This means the test would be directly exposed to more aromatase through subq - elevating estrogen more than during IM.
> 
> Something to consider for the subq users



This was one of Crisler's initial fears when he began switching his patients from IM injections to SC injections. He has not seen it actually play out in any patient's lab work though, probably bc even though adipose tissue has more aromatase enzymes, the oil only remains in depot in the adipose tissue. It gets hydrolyzed once it enters the blood stream not at the injection site to any appreciable degree.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 21, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> This was one of Crisler's initial fears when he began switching his patients from IM injections to SC injections. He has not seen it actually play out in any patient's lab work though, probably bc even though adipose tissue has more aromatase enzymes, the oil only remains in depot in the adipose tissue. It gets hydrolyzed once it enters the blood stream not at the injection site to any appreciable degree.



I confess to not being up to date with the latest data on this so that's very interesting!

Logically I couldn't see any way to avoid the interaction with aromatase but your explanation is as good as any & "logic" rarely applies to physiological processes anyway 

What about the risks of calcification over time?
Also, wouldnt injecting directly into adipose tissue reduce absorbtion by 10% or so? This may be a risk for those who are higher on the bf% scale.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 21, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I confess to not being up to date with the latest data on this so that's very interesting!
> 
> Logically I couldn't see any way to avoid the interaction with aromatase but your explanation is as good as any & "logic" rarely applies to physiological processes anyway
> 
> ...



I don't think calcification would be an issue in SC vs IM. I'd see it as being an issue in either both or none. 

If you're talking about absorption rates then yes, typically SC injections absorb slower than IM injections. This isn't necessarily a bad thing since with compounds like insulin you don't really want too fast if an absorption rate. Also once equilibrium or steady state has been achieved, usually after several weeks, this completely ceases to be an issue as you'd have constant/linear release regardless of the actual absorption rate.


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## Ronin72 (Dec 21, 2014)

According to (I can't remember which company made the test I got from a legit  pharmacy, I think one was watching and the other was Lily, The doc was was a croak though!), lol. Anyways I looked it up on the website and it also came in the pamphlet inside of the box. It states "inject deep into the gluteal muscle is close to the bone is possible". I always use a one and a half inch needle,  I like a 23 gauge.. Now I'm one legit TRT through a HRT clinic out-of-state and my test comes from a compounding pharmacy. what I started out with two bottles of test with a refill on each I went to two different pharmacies obviously so I got two different brands. If you look up testosterone depot on Google I'm sure you'll find this site, testosterone depot is not the generic name. It's test c , like Xanax, 99% of the time you get pills called alprazolam, but everybody still calls it Xanax. Just glad  "test depot" wasn't as catchy as Test c, test e, TNE etc.  deeper the better just don't get a bone! lol!


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## goodfella (Dec 21, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> AAS can be pinned sub q. There are many many people who do so. They're even doing studies on it although several have already been done. You shouldn't be pinning 3cc of anything sub q.



Yes, of course they CAN, can meaning it's possible, but again I gotta point out, it's not meant to be, and is more of loop hole for people that don't like to pin imo, for w/e reason they choose. Just saying working as a M/A and if they knew I used that method on my self or advised anyone on it, I'd loose my credentials or would just look at me as a dumby... Another thing, really not suppose to pin more than half a ml subq either. So to me, you gotta understand how this almost comes off as something like bro science when i've been trained in a different manner. Again, I guess I should just say this is just my opinion, instead of how it should be done, cus i'm sure others will love to argue it, so I'll just leave it at that. 

On another note, I'm sure one day I'll probably be forced to pin subq do to scare tissue build ups, but I don't really advise or see any good in it if your actually cycling several ml's through the week. Cruising/trt, seems more appropriate for that method.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 21, 2014)

goodfella said:


> Yes, of course they CAN, can meaning it's possible, but again I gotta point out, it's not meant to be, and is more of loop hole for people that don't like to pin imo, for w/e reason they choose. Just saying working as a M/A and if they knew I used that method on my self or advised anyone on it, I'd loose my credentials or would just look at me as a dumby... Another thing, really not suppose to pin more than half a ml subq either. So to me, you gotta understand how this almost comes off as something like bro science when i've been trained in a different manner. Again, I guess I should just say this is just my opinion, instead of how it should be done, cus i'm sure others will love to argue it, so I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> On another note, I'm sure one day I'll probably be forced to pin subq do to scare tissue build ups, but I don't really advise or see any good in it if your actually cycling several ml's through the week. Cruising/trt, seems more appropriate for that method.



You're right and I think I made the point you shouldn't be pinning 3cc of anything SC. The max I beleive is .6cc but again you're right in that it can cause inflammation for some. It wouldn't make much sense to use SC for a cycle/blast bc of the volume of oil needed to be pinned unless it's not a huge cycle. 

The main difference between IM and SC injections from what I've been told is the absorption rates due to differences in blood flow. Plus with SC you're not poking so many holes into your muscle tissue after years and years of use. Dr. Crisler and Dr. Shippen are two of the most prominent TRT docs out there and SC injections have become their go to with hardly any negative consequences.


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## Flyingdragon (Dec 21, 2014)

Some people like anal sex while others enjoy sex with a vagina...So Sub Q vs IM is simply ones preference......


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## TheLupinator (Dec 22, 2014)

SubQ'd before a 2week trip that I didn't feel like taking gear with me on. Pinned 2weeks worth before I left, filled up 6 slin pins almost all the way ~.8cc and put 2 in each quad (spaced 6in apart) and 1 in each glute. No pain or irritation whatsoever... obviously you wouldn't put that kind of volume in your stomach.


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