# Japan: doing it wrong



## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...apan-testing-abe-shinzo-map-clusters-12552100

We have the highest elderly population in the world. Japanese always wait to be told what to do. So far that’s almost nothing. Schools cancelled. That’s it. 

Streets packed. Stores packed. Remote work? Not in this culture. 

Want to ge tested? Good luck convincing the government to approve your access. 

This is sure to be the worst outcome for any developed nation. 

Be glad the US government is only mildly incompetent compared to the Yahoos here. 

Watch from afar as incompence leads to tragedy.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 19, 2020)

With so much global news on efforts to contain the spread, I'm surprised the Japanese people aren't adopting those precautions.

Is there still pressure on white collar workers to come into the office? Are Japanese citizens unaware of the guidance to avoid large groups and going out in public?


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## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

NbleSavage said:


> With so much global news on efforts to contain the spread, I'm surprised the Japanese people aren't adopting those precautions.
> 
> Is there still pressure on white collar workers to come into the office? Are Japanese citizens unaware of the guidance to avoid large groups and going out in public?



A handful of very progressive companies have allowed work from home. 99% of the workforce continues. 

Generally Japanese people care about japan. Not a lot of interest in international affairs. Myopic point of view. 

Everyone is oblivious. 

People think we’re crazy. Kids out of school but after school activities continue in full force. People don’t think here. They obey. 

“No school” means you don’t go to school. That is all that’s been done or advised. 

Un****ingbelievable.

if/when the PM asks for permission to invoke his new powers to keep people inside, a committee will have to be formed, consensus had and then it can be enacted. 

Change is slow here. 

As as soon as that committee is announced I’m off to CostCo. No panic buying ATM. 

Japan is seriously, very ****ed.


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## tinymk (Mar 19, 2020)

It is a different culture for sure. I treating but different.  Hope to make it over there one day after all the smoke clears.


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## German89 (Mar 19, 2020)

Do you think.  The gov't just needs some of the old to die?


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## CJ (Mar 19, 2020)

German89 said:


> Do you think.  The gov't just needs some of the old to die?



EVIL!!! :32 (6):

But I wonder that too. Not as a conspiracy theory, but almost like if it happens.....


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## German89 (Mar 19, 2020)

CJ275 said:


> EVIL!!! :32 (6):
> 
> But I wonder that too. Not as a conspiracy theory, but almost like if it happens.....



Evil truth.  Sorry? lol

I don't know.


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## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

German89 said:


> Do you think.  The gov't just needs some of the old to die?



Thought had crossed my mind. 

But this is too typical of slow moving Japanese mindsets.


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## Blacktail (Mar 19, 2020)

I wish them well but not looking like that’s going to be the case.


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## Flyingdragon (Mar 19, 2020)

I always wondered where in Japan Mr. Miyagi learned how to catch a fly with a chopstick....


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 19, 2020)

On the plus side, Japan will recover a lot quicker than most because it sounds like the Japanese PM, rightly, has decided that the human cost of the virus is nothing compared to the human cost of trashing our economy. He knows that, say, a 20% drop in GDP with a couple of months will bring a lot of nasty sides along with it. 

Also, the Japanese are naturally cautious anyway (biggest cash hoarders in the world, stop spending anytime consumer taxes are increased, etc). That'll pay off handsomely in times like this, which is why you see the Yen rallying as a save haven currency.

Give it a few months before you decide that they are "doing it wrong". I suspect they're actually way ahead of the upcoming trend on this judging by the lack of Chinese appetite to resume shutdowns if this virus is still lurking around (which it will be).


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## Joliver (Mar 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...apan-testing-abe-shinzo-map-clusters-12552100
> 
> We have the highest elderly population in the world. Japanese always wait to be told what to do. So far that’s almost nothing. Schools cancelled. That’s it.
> 
> ...



That moment you realize that the government realizes that it has a mirakuru on its hands that can flip the top-heavy ageing population pyramid back into it's favor with no immigration. 

Perhaps I can interest you in something in my tinfoil line of apparel....


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## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Give it a few months before you decide that they are "doing it wrong". I suspect they're actually way ahead of the upcoming trend on this judging by the lack of Chinese appetite to resume shutdowns if this virus is still lurking around (which it will be).



I absolutely see your point and if my values were your values then I’d be in agreement. 

Bottom line is that if my family has a roof, food and access to healthcare: I don’t really care about money

certainly not saying that money is a bad thing or that my values are superior to yours. Just different. 

I really enjoy getting your perspective on these issues.


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## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

Japan’s hotel industry is offering discounts on hotel rooms. To boost business!!

i shit you not. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...conventional-offers-coronavirus/#.XnPw6qSRWEc


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## Seeker (Mar 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> Japan’s hotel industry is offering discounts on hotel rooms. To boost business!!
> 
> i shit you not.
> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...conventional-offers-coronavirus/#.XnPw6qSRWEc



Do they come with a hot tub and mirrored ceilings?


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 19, 2020)

Jin said:


> I absolutely see your point and if my values were your values then I’d be in agreement.
> Bottom line is that if my family has a roof, food and access to healthcare: I don’t really care about money
> certainly not saying that money is a bad thing or that my values are superior to yours. Just different.
> I really enjoy getting your perspective on these issues.


Dude, I think you'll find our values are more intertwined then you think. 

It isn't a case of economy vs health or money vs health. These are pieces of the same pie. In fact, if you look at the data, the correlation between per-capita GDP and health (life expectancy) is close to perfect. That means one moves with the other. If our political response to this virus leads to a global economic collapse, then many more lives will be lost than this virus would ever have been able to claim. That is why I keep harping on about the *human* cost of our economic actions. Here is a paper that I recommend checking out to see why my concern is what it is: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0204940

I care for an 89 year old with dementia. My mother is in her 70s and father in his late 60s with a weakened immune system. I take the precautions (that you have done a good job informing the board of) necessary to make sure they're as protected as they can be. I do care. But that doesn't mean I can pretend that our actions, politically, are equal to the cause. I don't think they are. I fear that the many will pay a far greater price than was necessary in order to protect the few. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Jin (Mar 19, 2020)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Dude, I think you'll find our values are more intertwined then you think.
> 
> It isn't a case of economy vs health or money vs health. These are pieces of the same pie. In fact, if you look at the data, the correlation between per-capita GDP and health (life expectancy) is close to perfect. That means one moves with the other. If our political response to this virus leads to a global economic collapse, then many more lives will be lost than this virus would ever have been able to claim. That is why I keep harping on about the *human* cost of our economic actions. Here is a paper that I recommend checking out to see why my concern is what it is: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0204940
> 
> I care for an 89 year old with dementia. My mother is in her 70s and father in his late 60s with a weakened immune system. I take the precautions (that you have done a good job informing the board of) necessary to make sure they're as protected as they can be. I do care. But that doesn't mean I can pretend that our actions, politically, are equal to the cause. I don't think they are. I fear that the many will pay a far greater price than was necessary in order to protect the few. I hope I'm wrong.



OK, I definitely was under an incorrect assumption. I get it now. 

So, is your view that an acute time of illness, crisis and death, with a faster social/economic recovery is superior to a more mild, drawn out pandemic with an economic/social recovery taking many times as long?

in terms of overall human well being?

So, are we balancing long term wellness vs short term?

Long term having much to do
with the economy and affecting almost the entire population, whilst short term affecting far fewer but with immediate and visceral effects? 

I take it you’d call the government’s priority to the immediate and visceral, short sighted?

Whats your view on how your country should
handle the situation?


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## Sicwun88 (Mar 20, 2020)

Nobody had to tell them what to do when they bombed Pearl harbor! I don't eat sushi,and if Donnie brasco isn't taking off his boots neither am I! Got enough to worry about in my own lil world!


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## Jin (Mar 20, 2020)

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/20/national/coronavirus-explosion-expected-japan/

Japan officials say they’re confident in their testing regimen. “We don’t see a need to use all of our testing capacity, just because we have it,” Health Ministry official Yasuyuki Sahara said at a briefing Tuesday. “Neither do we think it’s necessary to test people just because they’re worried.”


Historic levels of stupid. 

Like, literally this stupidity will be documented in history books.

Planning on letting a virus burn through the population unhindered is one thing. Burying your head in the sand is quite another.


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## MrRippedZilla (Mar 20, 2020)

Jin said:


> So, is your view that an acute time of illness, crisis and death, with a faster social/economic recovery is superior to a more mild, drawn out pandemic with an economic/social recovery taking many times as long?
> in terms of overall human well being?
> So, are we balancing long term wellness vs short term?
> Long term having much to do with the economy and affecting almost the entire population, whilst short term affecting far fewer but with immediate and visceral effects?
> ...


I'd answer yes to your first 5 questions. 

Politicians are always short sighted and always lie/hide the long term ramifications of their actions. Example: The Italian treasury claims it will only lose 3% of its GDP this year and that everything could return to normal in late April. Morgan Stanley says Italy will lose 33% of its GDP this year and nothing is returning to normal anytime soon. One of those two is flat out lying and I don't think it's MS. 

The UK, my country, has been more honest about its approach than most. You won't hear any of that 2 week/1 month lockdown nonsense here. It's 12-16 weeks to see if we can get things under control but the measures in place are likely to last all year. The luxury of honesty from our politicians stems from the fact that our PM won a comfortable majority in the Dec election and is safe for 4 years. He can afford to be brutally honest - most politicians in most countries can't. 

My main issue with our approach is that we're determined to pretend that the virus is an equal opportunity disease despite the fact that the data clearly shows that it's particularly deadly to the old & ill. We shouldn't all have to suffer the same economic consequences to combat it. Example: why ban public gatherings altogether vs isolating the old & ill only? Closing schools vs isolating the old & ill only. And on & on it goes. We, and most of the rest of the world, need to be more targeted in our measures to preserve ourselves over the long term. I suspect, and hope, we will be as the year progresses but we certainly aren't right now and hence....staring into the face of economic catastrophe. 

By the way, I know isolating the elderly and ill comes with its own set of nasty side effects. But it's absolutely necessary if you want to fight this battle. It's a judgement call. By isolating the elderly from life, do we do more harm than good here? Tough question. I have no answer.


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## Jin (Mar 20, 2020)

Sweet. Schools set to open in early April. 

Because we’re immune to pandemics on this island!


https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...ril-after-coronavirus-shurtdown/#.XnUwTKSRWEc


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## NbleSavage (Mar 20, 2020)

Jin said:


> Sweet. Schools set to open in early April.
> 
> Because we’re immune to pandemics on this island!
> 
> ...



Fookin' ell... I had to laugh at "Historic Levels of Stupid" - I think ye may be right!


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## Jin (Mar 20, 2020)

NbleSavage said:


> Fookin' ell... I had to laugh at "Historic Levels of Stupid" - I think ye may be right!



“In Nagoya, capital of hard-hit Aichi Prefecture, more elderly day care centers with thousands of users will reopen from Saturday after a two-week shutdown. The city had requested the facilities close after a cluster of contagion cases had been linked to an elder care center.”

This is a prefecture that is already struggling with hospital occupancy. 

All we can do is sit back and watch this country go to shit. 

My daughter will not start kindergarten in April. If she has to be held back a year. So be it.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 20, 2020)

^^ Stay safe & healthy, Mate ^^ 

Bit worried about ye there, tbh. Ye got a "Go to Hell" plan? Best to shelter in place or is there a bug-out option?


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## Jin (Mar 20, 2020)

NbleSavage said:


> ^^ Stay safe & healthy, Mate ^^
> 
> Bit worried about ye there, tbh. Ye got a "Go to Hell" plan? Best to shelter in place or is there a bug-out option?



We live in big valley. Two other houses. Three elderly folks. We aren’t able to go back to the States currently. Nor would we want to. 

I foresee the civil unrest there as more of a threat than the idiocy here. 

If things got real crazy we are at the foot of a Mountain. I have a tent

these are all three houses. Pretty ideal for this type of crisis. Happy to shelter in place. Plus home gym


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## transcend2007 (Mar 20, 2020)

I am curious Ripped .. what healthcare experience to you have ...?  

If cities with large populations did next to nothing as you are suggesting their heath care systems would be overrun with sick people in a very short time and people would literally be dying in the streets or in hospital halls the way they are in Italy today (they actually too slowly and unfortunately were even closer to China with many migrant workers - plus they did NOT implement a Chines travel ban like the US did early).

The idea of isolating only those at risk is not enough ... because all the younger healthier people would still be infecting high risk people (and how would anyone under 70 know if they were at risk) ... let's be honest if this was only limited to the elderly would this really be getting world wide attention ... the answer is no ... the only why to manage a pandemic is to fvching manage entire populations ...

In reality Morgan Stanley nor anyone else has a clue what the overall outcome to this situation is going to be ... a number of factors will impact the end result that are simply unknown today ... the #1 factor being a viable treatment coming out in the next 30 days to 60 days ... and if that does happen the people saying we should have done nothing are even more wrong as at the very least things have been slowed down considerably over having done nothing (and the economic consequence will be less) .... if no treatments come out for 6 months or more (which is unlikely) then the delay the spread strategy could end up having the economy crippling effect you've mentioned ... with no one escaping the financial burdens caused ....

So the question is this ... will there be a treatment for Covid-19 in the near term .... or not ... again this is why they call it a crisis ... no one knows the future ... but taking preventive steps does seem to be the correct course of action .. and if the treatment does come out in April and/or May its very likely the economic devastation will be avoided ... no can say we do not live in "interesting times" ...  




MrRippedZilla said:


> I'd answer yes to your first 5 questions.
> 
> Politicians are always short sighted and always lie/hide the long term ramifications of their actions. Example: The Italian treasury claims it will only lose 3% of its GDP this year and that everything could return to normal in late April. Morgan Stanley says Italy will lose 33% of its GDP this year and nothing is returning to normal anytime soon. One of those two is flat out lying and I don't think it's MS.
> 
> ...


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## Jin (Mar 24, 2020)

An OpEd praising Japan’s “model” handling of the pandemic. As if Japan is over the hump. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinio...r-chance-shine-covid-19-outlier/#.XnoejaSRWEf


A clueless, self absorbed people who think world affairs don’t concern them.


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## German89 (Mar 25, 2020)

Jin said:


> An OpEd praising Japan’s “model” handling of the pandemic. As if Japan is over the hump.
> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinio...r-chance-shine-covid-19-outlier/#.XnoejaSRWEf
> 
> ...



Do you think. The citizens of japan will naturally self isolate?

I can't sit and read the article.


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## Jin (Mar 25, 2020)

German89 said:


> Do you think. The citizens of japan will naturally self isolate?
> 
> I can't sit and read the article.



No. 

People don’t think for themselves here. It’s discouraged. 

They follow directions. There are no directions to isolate.

people
must think we’re crazy.


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## German89 (Mar 25, 2020)

Jin said:


> No.
> 
> People don’t think for themselves here. It’s discouraged.
> 
> ...



We are crazy


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## Spongy (Mar 25, 2020)

Jin said:


> An OpEd praising Japan’s “model” handling of the pandemic. As if Japan is over the hump.
> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinio...r-chance-shine-covid-19-outlier/#.XnoejaSRWEf
> 
> ...



The American media is also singing Japan's praises for how they are handling the pandemic.  It's insane.


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## Beezy (Mar 25, 2020)

Jin said:


> An OpEd praising Japan’s “model” handling of the pandemic. As if Japan is over the hump.
> 
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinio...r-chance-shine-covid-19-outlier/#.XnoejaSRWEf
> 
> ...



They only have around 5% of the confirmed cases that NY state has, but half the deaths.
Is that from underreporting confirmed cases, or more high risk citizens?

*scratch that, they only have 43 deaths


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## Jin (Mar 26, 2020)

So......the day after the IOC insists on postponing the Olympics:

all of a sudden: https://japantoday.com/category/nat...oronavirus-infections-feared-rampant-in-japan

Finally we can take action to save lives. 

Oh, first there has to be a panel formed. Then everybody has to agree. Then the PM may be given emergency powers. 

The bureaucracy and stupidity is mind boggling. 

Off to Costco tomorrow for a final round before shit hits the fan here.


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## Beezy (Mar 26, 2020)

Jin said:


> So......the day after the IOC insists on postponing the Olympics:
> 
> all of a sudden: https://japantoday.com/category/nat...oronavirus-infections-feared-rampant-in-japan
> 
> ...



I’ll be happy to share all the canned ravioli in my basement if the shit decides not to hit the fan here.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 26, 2020)

It's fascinating in a train wreck sorta way to see the two ends of the spectrum forming. 

Ye have the 'Virus Deniers' who seem to be primarily interested in getting the labor force back to work and in using the media to sell a narrative that the virus isn't as bad as it seems, that only the elderly & already sick people are at risk, that it will all be over in a month due to warm weather / an as-yet not identified vaccine or antidote / a level of immunity achieved, etc. I would include the wealthy in this category, as they clearly have a vested interest in getting labor back to work ASAP. These same people are the ones who seem to be ok with the notion that if a couple percentage of the population have to die such that their country can get back to work, that its an acceptable outcome.

Then ye have the 'Doomsday Preppers' who seem to be relishing in this situation  after having accumulated a lifetime of MREs, bottled water, toilet paper (?!), guns & ammo and like to speak of how we must expect the government will quarantine everybody and close all businesses (grocery stores, pharmacies) - not just 'unessential ones' - for the next 6-12-18 mos and take great pleasure in letting it be known how they'll turn ye away when ye inevitably come begging fer water at their shelter-in-place fortress. I'm including the Costco TP Hoarders in this bracket - they may be late to the 'Prepper' Party, but they've cleary voted with their wallet and are expecting the worst.

I'm in the middle. I think a near-term self-imposed quarantine makes sense, but that we need to keep grocery stores and pharmacies open and well-stocked so as to avoid creating a mass panic in addition to making sure people don't have to worry about where their next meal comes from or whether they'll be able to get their meds. If people would be willing to respect this approach (I'm looking at ye, Florida spring breakers) I could see it being sustainable for months - perhaps long enough for either a vaccine to be developed and distributed at scale or fer enough immunity to be gained (we'll need more testing of course) such that the virus burns itself out.

Rushing people back to work while we don't know who is infected and who isn't seems very irresponsible. Military imposed quarantine complete with no access to food or meds (how is that even sustainable in the short term?) seems likely to breed riots and nationwide panic.

IMO, this is going to be on the people of each country to act reasonably and to insist their leaders don't take a heavy-handed approach towards either end of the spectrum. It's the people of any nation who are supposed to have the power. Good time to remind our political leaders of that.


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## Beezy (Mar 26, 2020)

NbleSavage said:


> It's fascinating in a train wreck sorta way to see the two ends of the spectrum forming.
> 
> Ye have the 'Virus Deniers' who seem to be primarily interested in getting the labor force back to work and in using the media to sell a narrative that the virus isn't as bad as it seems, that only the elderly & already sick people are at risk, that it will all be over in a month due to warm weather / an as-yet not identified vaccine or antidote / a level of immunity achieved, etc. I would include the wealthy in this category, as they clearly have a vested interest in getting labor back to work ASAP. These same people are the ones who seem to be ok with the notion that if a couple percentage of the population have to die such that their country can get back to work, that its an acceptable outcome.
> 
> ...



I know a lot of people, and a few businesses that can not afford a few months of this.
One local small business owner near me, a new construction plumbing outfit of around 35 employees, listed his company for sale and said he has about six weeks to sell it before the doors close. 
I don’t know what the answer is, but economically speaking, a few months of this can’t be it.
It may be financial Darwinism playing out for heavily leveraged business and households, but I’m not sure that’s going to kill/destroy less families than getting back to work with heavy health precautions.


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## Jin (Mar 28, 2020)

Korea: Doing it right

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7aX5hksU

The World’s foremost expert on Covid 19 gives candid answers in a humble manner. 

long video. Well worth the watch. 

We’re likely in for a very long ride. 

WEAR A MASK IF YOU GO OUT.


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## CJ (Mar 28, 2020)

Added to my Watch Later queue. Not enough time right now.


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## Jin (Mar 28, 2020)

CJ275 said:


> Added to my Watch Later queue. Not enough time right now.



Huge difference between this guys level of frankness and Fauci’s political answers. 

Apprently Koreans are adults who can handle the truth while Americans and Japanese must be lied to and kept in the dark.


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## Jin (May 25, 2020)

Wow. I was very wrong. 

Really good outcome by the numbers. 

Even so, Leadership and policy were not good. 

Not even the experts can explain why we escaped unscathed in relation to other counties. 

Some factors from Japanese culture:

Masks are part of the culture. 
Everyone wears a mask in public. 
No handshakes
No hugging 
Silence in elevators and public transit (no droplets)
No regular religious services (singing)
Very hygenic. Regular hand washing before every meal. 

Of course the numbers aren’t accurate. You still need to have come in contact with somebody who has tested positive to actually be granted a Covid test. 

But Neither hospitals nor morgues are overrun.


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## IHI (May 26, 2020)

Going to guess they maybe didn’t feel a need to manipulate the numbers and list every death as a covid death; AND they chose to let the flu bug run its course as we’ve done for centuries.

i mean, stateside with non stop media bullshyt, we only had a 99.98% of surviving this if we got it. 

ive been keeping an eye on 10yr death average fir states here, not a single spike in deaths on CDC stats, many places below where they were at this time last year.

the ONLY change worth noting; C19 has seemingly cured influenza a/b and pneumonia


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## Yaya (May 26, 2020)

Sato had zero chance against Miagi


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