# Lets talk about overtraining again



## Introyble (Dec 17, 2013)

Not to hog all the new posts but I did find this comment really interesting......." Although I think the overtraining thing is a lot of Internet hype. It takes your body along time to actually get to true overtraining. But loss of strength is a sign that you could be moving towards that point."


Most interesting, nobody argued with the statement. In fact, it seems like almost everybody agreed with you bro.

Since my OP was obviously about the chest I'd like to ask how often you train your chest.  Like to hear more thoughts about overtraining.  I'm not sure I believe that you need a week, thats new to me and now I'm seeing a decline in performance..


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## losieloos (Dec 17, 2013)

Brah once u lose the pump it's time to go.


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## coltmc4545 (Dec 17, 2013)

Ok this is my take and experience, just MINE, and others might be different...

You hear overtraining talk on forums a lot. I think most people mistake overtraining with not getting enough rest and allowing your body and muscle to recoup. Do I believe overtraining exists? Absolutely. But the human body can withstand a tremendous amount of work without going into a complete muscle waisting state. Do I believe adequate rest is imperative for you to grow? Yes 100%. You don't grow when you're in the gym. You grow when you sleep. Personally I think overtraining has been thrown around so much that people are actually under training now. ESPECIALLY on gear.

Here is my own personal experience. I started dieting and training to do a comp back in July. I trained for 18 weeks. 6 days a week. More volume then I've EVER done in my life. Here's a sample of a chest day since that's what you're interested in:

All warm up sets are barely below working set weight. Like 2.5-5 lbs. and there's only 30 sec rest between sets. Go by the clock, not your head.

Rear delt flyes: (shoulder warm up)
2 WU sets of 10
4x10

Seated cable flyes
2-3 WU sets of 12
4x12

Incline db press
2 WU of 5
4x8 4 sec slow controlled negative

Hammer strength flat press
2 WU of 10
4x10 4 sec slow controlled negative

Weighted dips
2 WU of 10 with body weight 
5x10
SUPERSET with push-ups to failure (30 sec rest after super set)

Standing cable flyes
2 WU of 10
4x10

You're last WU set you should struggle to get the last rep. So if you're doing a 4x10, your last rep of your last warm up you should struggle. You won't be able to hit the full rep range in. 4x10. So it should look something like:
Set 1 4x9-10 set 2 4x8 set 3 4x6-7 set 4 4x5-6.
You will be at complete muscle fatigue.

That's a sample chest day that I did every week. I hit chest twice a week but on the second time it was just working it into tri's and bi's to get a pump. My diet was completely stict, measured out. During my last month and a half 2 days a week I was only taking in 60 grams of carbs a day. 3 days was 110 grams. 2 days were 210 grams. Plus I was doing HIIT cardio sessions 4 X's a week plus 30 min steady state cardio sessions 5 days a week. My point is I taxed my body and was barely running any gear. Trt levels of test and 200mg of tren e. Smallest cycle I've ever done and I saw the most results. Did all that working 60+ hrs a week, going to school, I have 2 small kids at home who were both in sports, plus meal prep, planning a wedding, blah blah blah. Even the final month I was still putting on muscle. Now if I continued that would I of started to see a decline? Absolutely I believe it 100%. My body and mind were completely taxed. My strength sucked. My energy sucked. My memory sucked. Was I on the brink of overtraining? Yes at that point I believe I was. But if you're in the gym 5 days a week, have a proper split so you're not working the same muscle groups day after day after day, getting good sleep, and eating right, I honestly don't think you can be over training.

As far as the deload week goes, try it. You'll be suprised how taking a week off now and then can make you stronger. It's because your CNS needs rest too, just like your muscle groups.

OP, what's your split look like?


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## Fsuphisig (Dec 17, 2013)

everytime I switch it up to a bb style training i feel like i start to eventually overtrain and I dont see any progress, granted im natural. but i feel like if i take 3 sets to failure per excercise, im just killing my ability to recover.
i like this post id like to hear other peoples responses


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## widehips71 (Dec 17, 2013)

Having been an active duty Infantry soldier for almost 5yrs and being ran through a meat grinder everyday, I do believe overtraining is more in a persons mind than anything.  Can it happen?  Of course.  But as colt said, proper nutrition, rest, and split will keep your body ready for the next day..most of the time.  My best advice?  Listen to your body.  After a super hard and heavy deadlift/back day I have no problem taking the next day off because I'm sore from my ears to my toes.  Your body will tell you what you need, so pay attention to it.  If you feel yourself wearing down and your workouts suffering, take a week off.  You won't lose anything in a week and you'll come back recharged and ready to kill some iron.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 17, 2013)

The more advanced one is the easier it is to overtrain. Overtraining is simply not recovering enough from the stress of your workout. Whether it's due to lack of sleep, poor diet, or too much volume/intensity in training. The causes can be different but the result is the same...wasted training time. 

Widehips: thank you for your service and I am NOT trying to take anything away from you with my comment but overtraining due to military training isn't the same as lifting weights. The intensity of your 1RM and volume in lifting weights can and will cause overtraining if you don't watch out for it. Running, PFT's, push-ups pull-ups etc are all low intensity activities compared to lifting your 1RM on a deadlift


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## SFGiants (Dec 17, 2013)

People confuse over training of the body and over training your CNS.

It hard to over train your body but easy to do so with your CNS.

When weight you can blow up with extreme ease and or speed starts feeling heavy it's your CNS that needs a rest.

Your CNS needs to be taught to lift with extreme heavy weight.


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## widehips71 (Dec 17, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> The more advanced one is the easier it is to overtrain. Overtraining is simply not recovering enough from the stress of your workout. Whether it's due to lack of sleep, poor diet, or too much volume/intensity in training. The causes can be different but the result is the same...wasted training time.
> 
> Widehips: thank you for your service and I am NOT trying to take anything away from you with my comment but overtraining due to military training isn't the same as lifting weights. The intensity of your 1RM and volume in lifting weights can and will cause overtraining if you don't watch out for it. Running, PFT's, push-ups pull-ups etc are all low intensity activities compared to lifting your 1RM on a deadlift



You're welcome. And no worries.  I respect everyone's opinion, especially those formed through life experiences like ours.  My opinion my not always be right, wrong, or otherwise..it's just mine, so if someone asks I'll share.  I agree pushups/pullups etc aren't the same as lifting heavy.  My point being more to pay attention to your body as it will usually do a good job of telling you what you need.  And you'll have to forgive my never quit gungho hard charger mentality about things.  It was beat into us and it's hard to turn that switch off sometimes  

I am curious why it is you say that the more advanced one is, the easier it is to overtrain though?  I've never heard that before.


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## SFGiants (Dec 17, 2013)

widehips71 said:


> You're welcome. And no worries.  I respect everyone's opinion, especially those formed through life experiences like ours.  My opinion my not always be right, wrong, or otherwise..it's just mine, so if someone asks I'll share.  I agree pushups/pullups etc aren't the same as lifting heavy.  My point being more to pay attention to your body as it will usually do a good job of telling you what you need.  And you'll have to forgive my never quit gungho hard charger mentality about things.  It was beat into us and it's hard to turn that switch off sometimes
> 
> *I am curious why it is you say that the more advanced one is, the easier it is to overtrain though?*  I've never heard that before.



More volume.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 17, 2013)

widehips71 said:


> You're welcome. And no worries.  I respect everyone's opinion, especially those formed through life experiences like ours.  My opinion my not always be right, wrong, or otherwise..it's just mine, so if someone asks I'll share.  I agree pushups/pullups etc aren't the same as lifting heavy.  My point being more to pay attention to your body as it will usually do a good job of telling you what you need.  And you'll have to forgive my never quit gungho hard charger mentality about things.  It was beat into us and it's hard to turn that switch off sometimes
> 
> I am curious why it is you say that the more advanced one is, the easier it is to overtrain though?  I've never heard that before.



Thanks for not taking that the wrong way lol. 

Your body most certainly will tell you when it's time to deload or something but people usually don't see the aRning signs or ignore them. They're always there but not completely evident at times. 

Just as SFG said it has to do with volume and intensity. An advanced or slither athlete needs more than 2or 3 sets of work to create a sufficient stress to disrupt homeostasis. Training is about providing a stress to your body that breaks homeostasis (but not enough to make you to backwards in progress) and super compensating for it during recovery...your body will repair itself in a way to handle the new stress. That's how progress is made. In an advanced lifter this means a lot of volume and high intensity. It means more than a single workout to create enough stress, it means light recovery days or conjugated training, etc. The line between training and overtraining for an advanced athlete is very thin line. Too much training and he will overtrain and waste training time, too little stress and he won't progress. I've got a good explanation of it at home I'll try and post up tonight n


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## Azog (Dec 17, 2013)

I am one of those that believe there is no over training. Only under eating or resting/recovering.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 17, 2013)

Azog said:


> I am one of those that believe there is no over training. Only under eating or resting/recovering.



Correct me if I'm wrong brother but you've stated in the pAst that you concentrate more on form then lifting heavy as in you stay away from heavy heavy sets in favor of more volume/better form/TUT/ etc? If that's the case then this is a reason why you may have never experienced overtraining. The intensity with regards to your 1RM is a causative factor as well as volume, rest, diet, etc. Basically one thing I'm trying to point out is we're looking at the same issue but from two different sides: you see diet and rest not being enough for training and I'm saying training is too much for diet and recovery. Same issue but two viewpoints.


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## AlphaD (Dec 17, 2013)

Personally I happen to think Over training is blown way out of control.  Do I believe over training is real, yes I do. However I believe it is really hard to reach and attain then what trainers, and internet hypers want you to you to believe.  If you're eating right, training properly and getting adequate rest, I do not believe you will ever get to an over training state.   If you believe poundages aren't increasing change up the style your lifting, get a different scheme and more importantly look at your diet.  And ever once in awhile deload, or take a week off.  Then hit it hard again.  Too many people will look for a way out or excuses to what the believe is too many workouts per week, usually buying into the concept that the are over training.


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## Seeker (Dec 17, 2013)

Muscles must get damaged in order to grow. Once Damaged they must be repaired and refueled by means of food and rest for growth to happen. Now they are adapted to the stress you have put on them so you must damage them more so they can grow again. This means lifting  harder, heavier, and incorporating advanced techniques and so on, and so on.

Overtraining? For the natty beginner it can happen. For the rest of us:
There is only under eating
Under resting
Under dosing


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 17, 2013)

Widehips, here's the reference I mentioned earlier about overtraining. This applies more to powerlifters, olympic lifters, and strongmen than it does for typical bodybuilding type training as the stress provided by this kind of training is harder on the body but it still applies to bodybuilder's as well. 



> Overtraining. Overtraining is the cumulative result of relentless high-volume or high-intensity training, or both, without adequate recovery, that results in the exhaustion of the body's ability to recover and adapt. The primary diagnostic indicator is a reduction in performance capacity that doesn't improve with an amount of rest that would normally result in recovery. Although the accepted (ACSM) definition of overtraining holds that recovery from it requires no less than two weeks, overtraining is relative to the level of the trainee, and there are no hard and fast rules governing its onset or its abatement. Even a heinous abuse of a novice with an overwhelming workload, one that induces a loss of performance ability, would resolve fairly quickly. Although the time frame would be compressed, the symptoms observed by the coach would be those of overtraining. Although overtraining in the novice can occur, it may not be easily diagnosed because the magnitude of the loss of performance might be difficult to perceive, due both to a lack of training history for comparison and the low level of performance overall (fig. 2-7). Once again, as with overreaching, the overtrained intermediate fits the commonly accepted ACSM/USOC definition: an overtrained intermediate will not be able to recover in less than two weeks. In the advanced trainee, however, recovery is never planned to be complete for a minimum of four weeks anyway, and for the elite trainee, it may be considerably longer than that. The existing definition is inadequate for these trainees. It is also easier to diagnose overtraining in advanced and elite trainees, since the performance reduction is quite noticeable against the background of an extensive training history and, presumably, an established rate and pattern of progress.
> 
> A working definition of overtraining that applies to all levels of training advancement requires a better way to quantify recovery time in each stage. Overtraining occurs when performance does not recover within one reduced-load training cycle. The duration of that cycle will vary according to the athlete's level of advancement. For example, if a novice training every 48 hours has a workout that is markedly off due to excessive load in the previous workout, this will be apparent during warm-up. His range of motion will be decreased due to the soreness, and his bar speed will be noticeably slower and more labored as the weight increases through the sets. The coach should then stop the workout, having determined the problem (in the last workout he did five extra work sets while another trainee was being coached in the other room, for example) and sends him home with orders to rest until the next workout 48 hours later. He comes back in for his next workout, and warm-ups reveal that he is fine today, recovered and capable of the sets he should have done the previous workout. He was overtrained, and now he is recovered. This is possible because he is a novice, and this recovery time frame is consistent with a novice's ability to recover, both from normal overload and from overtraining, since the mechanism is the
> same.
> ...


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## Introyble (Dec 18, 2013)

Since you asked I did change another part of my split now that I think about it.  I started ripping my triceps on chest day.  I did this after noticing a slight decline.  My reasoning,  obviously triceps are going to be always secondary when slamming the chest.  Since I increased recovery time it seemed to make sense to allow maximum tricep and chest recovery time.  Shoulders, legs then biceps back.  Sometimes I visit a fourth day and try to better my 5k times.  

Shoulder pain was an issue and probably my main reason for increasing recovery aside from the overtraining fear.


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