# Second Cycle: Npp/test p



## Armenian (Jan 20, 2015)

Hey guys,

A lot of you recommended I stay away from tren for second cycle, which is unfortunate because now I have 3g collecting dust, but I was hoping for help with Npp cycle.

From what I gathered you want to run Npp minimum 12 weeks with last two weeks consisting of only test p. What I hear mixed reviews about is the dosing of test to Npp.  Npp is more anabolic from what I read so I would assume I run it higher? 

Week 1-12 test p 100 eod
Week 1-10 Npp 150 eod
Week 1-12 0.25 caber e3d
Week 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg eod
Week 1-12 500iu hcg sun/wed

3 days after last pin begin pct
100/100/50/50 clomid
20/20/20/20 nolva

Thanks for the continuing help I appreciate any input.


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## GenetixSupreme (Jan 20, 2015)

Armenian said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> A lot of you recommended I stay away from tren for second cycle, which is unfortunate because now I have 3g collecting dust, but I was hoping for help with Npp cycle.
> 
> ...



NPP is a 19-nor which should be run for 6-8 weeks due to prolactin increases, id advise 400mg/wk. Test p at 100mg EOD is good, you could bump that a bit if you'd like, for 12 weeks. Ive always done PCT 7 days after your last pin. After running a 19-nor you are pretty heavily shut down. The clomid is good, but with nolva you might want to taper as well 40/40/20/20. HCG also can be run from the middle of the cycle EOD and then you could blast the rest after week 12. Everything else looks good!

These are only my suggestions, input by other brothers is welcomed with open arms!!

-GS


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Armenian said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> A lot of you recommended I stay away from tren for second cycle, which is unfortunate because now I have 3g collecting dust, but I was hoping for help with Npp cycle.
> 
> ...



Another frikin eod pin schedule. Its going to take a life time to filter that retarded pin schedule out of the forum world. M/W/F! 

Dont use caber unless you have to.

Aromasin has a short half life...that is an ed dosing product

No need to stop npp 2 weeks before your test. It has basically the same ester as prop which means it will cleave almost as fast.


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## Paolos (Jan 20, 2015)

Armenian said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> A lot of you recommended I stay away from tren for second cycle, which is unfortunate because now I have 3g collecting dust, but I was hoping for help with Npp cycle.
> 
> ...



Much better second cycle in lieu of jumping right to tren. Glad you are considering other options!


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## canadianbuilt (Jan 20, 2015)

Paolos said:


> Much better second cycle in lieu of jumping right to tren. Glad you are considering other options!



+1 tren is harsh. Be well experienced before you hit it


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## Armenian (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Another frikin eod pin schedule. Its going to take a life time to filter that retarded pin schedule out of the forum world. M/W/F!
> 
> Dont use caber unless you have to.
> 
> ...




Week 1-12 test p 100 eod
Week 1-10 Npp 150 eod
Week 1-12 Aromasin 6.75-12.5mg ed
Week 4-10 500iu hcg sun/wed
Week 11: 250 IUs twice that week
Week 12: 250 IUs EOD hcg
Week 13: 500 IUs EOD hcg
Caber on hand throughout cycle 


7 days after last pin begin pct
100/100/50/50 clomid
40/40/20/20 nolva

How does this look?


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Armenian said:


> Week 1-12 test p 100 eod
> Week 1-10 Npp 150 eod
> Week 1-12 Aromasin 6.75-12.5mg ed
> Week 4-10 500iu hcg sun/wed
> ...



After all I said all you did was change the aromasin and caber lol 

1. Tell me why you think you should pin every other day?

2. Tell me why your stopping the npp 2 weeks before the test p?


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

I have no problem with people pinning eod, I have no problem with people pinning ed, I have no problem with people pinning m/w/f. It's up to the individual and that's what it comes down to. A preference and also how their body responds to certain protocols. As for the caber if your Aromasin is good and its doing its job, most likely you won't need it but have it on hand anyway. 

Aromasin  is the king of of Anti-E's. You need to find the timing and dosage that BEST works for you. It does have a short half life of just 9 hours BUT as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly starts to destroy 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes in your body, and it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours.  I know guys who recommend and take 25 mg per day, guys who take 12.5 mg eod. I'm on a gram of test and all I need is 12.5 mg e4d.

If YOU ARE GYNO SENSITIVE 25MG ED MIGHT BE YOUR BEST OPTION. Just experiment and find what works best for you.


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## Armenian (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> After all I said all you did was change the aromasin and caber lol
> 
> 1. Tell me why you think you should pin every other day?
> 
> 2. Tell me why your stopping the npp 2 weeks before the test p?



1. Maintain steady blood levels and to be honest with other forumns and opinions there seems to be an agreement on eod.  Day 1 to Day 2 look more stable than Day 1 to Day 3. http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/281/1/93/F1.expansion.html just to combat sides.

2. Get rid of the metabolites and begin pct timed right after the test p.

Your thoughts?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

GenetixSupreme said:


> NPP is a 19-nor which should be run for 6-8 weeks due to prolactin increases, id advise 400mg/wk. Test p at 100mg EOD is good, you could bump that a bit if you'd like, for 12 weeks. Ive always done PCT 7 days after your last pin. After running a 19-nor you are pretty heavily shut down. The clomid is good, but with nolva you might want to taper as well 40/40/20/20. HCG also can be run from the middle of the cycle EOD and then you could blast the rest after week 12. Everything else looks good!
> 
> These are only my suggestions, input by other brothers is welcomed with open arms!!
> 
> -GS



There's really not much research suggesting 19-nors increase prolactin. Certainly none that suggests only a 6-8wks cycle time


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> I have no problem with people pinning eod, I have no problem with people pinning ed, I have no problem with people pinning m/w/f. It's up to the individual and that's what it comes down to. A preference and also how their body responds to certain protocols. As for the caber if your Aromasin is good and its doing its job, most likely you won't need it but have it on hand anyway.
> 
> Aromasin  is the king of of Anti-E's. You need to find the timing and dosage that BEST works for you. It does have a short half life of just 9 hours BUT as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly starts to destroy 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes in your body, and it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours.  I know guys who recommend and take 25 mg per day, guys who take 12.5 mg eod. I'm on a gram of test and all I need is 12.5 mg e4d.
> 
> If YOU ARE GYNO SENSITIVE 25MG ED MIGHT BE YOUR BEST OPTION. Just experiment and find what works best for you.



If your preference is pinning ed or eod than your oreference is plain stupid. Sorry bro but there is absolutely no benefit to it and there is no reason to create all that scar tissue in your muscles...even if you switch sites. The least amount of penetration the better. 

The second aromasin starts to cleave is the second estrogen production begins to increase. Eod with aromasin is stupid as shit and it will cause fluctuations in the hormone. And ya we all know a guy who does this and that and is ok...who gives a shit about that though...a guy jumped off a bridge and lived, are you going to jump next because he is ok? These guys that are doing this are also not getting blood work done to show them the peaks and valleys of their estrogen levels.   If you dont need as much aromasin than take a smaller dose but take it daily. It doesnt work properly to hit 25mg one day then nothing the next. If eod anti e is what you want than switch to adex. If your going to do something then do it right for fk sake. 

Sorry seeker but your reasoning is flawed brother...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

Arimidex is a much better and effective AI than aromasin anyway. It's also less expensive on the wallet.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Armenian said:


> 1. Maintain steady blood levels and to be honest with other forumns and opinions there seems to be an agreement on eod.  Day 1 to Day 2 look more stable than Day 1 to Day 3. http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/281/1/93/F1.expansion.html just to combat sides.
> 
> 2. Get rid of the metabolites and begin pct timed right after the test p.
> 
> Your thoughts?



I knew that was what you were going to reply with...On paper eod looks good. In real life it translates to nothing but a jacked up pin schedule. No sides are created by m/w/f pinning. Look at it like this...you buy a car. On paper it get 30mpg..in real life it gets 23mpg. Paper statistics do not translate well to the real world otherwise medicine would not be considered a "practice".

And your going to be shut down wether you stop 2 weeks or at the same time. Your hpta is suppressed regardless and will need to be restarted the same. As long as your gear cleaves at approx. the same time then it wont matter when you stop as long as you stop all together. Deca and test i can see but not npp and test p.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Works for me. Say what you want. 12.5 every 4 days does me just fine and I feel great! When I was running 12.5 my ed I was just wasting my product and money.m i am getting blood work. Every 90 days to be exact whether I like it or not. I've been pinning streriods for over 25 years and Ive pinned Ed, eod,and M/w/fr. I have no scar tissues problems. 

Y


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## Armenian (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> I knew that was what you were going to reply with...On paper eod looks good. In real life it translates to nothing but a jacked up pin schedule. No sides are created by m/w/f pinning. Look at it like this...you buy a car. On paper it get 30mpg..in real life it gets 23mpg. Paper statistics do not translate well to the real world otherwise medicine would not be considered a "practice".
> 
> And your going to be shut down wether you stop 2 weeks or at the same time. Your hpta is suppressed regardless and will need to be restarted the same. As long as your gear cleaves at approx. the same time then it wont matter when you stop as long as you stop all together. Deca and test i can see but not npp and test p.



If that is truly the case then you can see why everyone thinks eod is the route.  But I believe as it was mentioned before that experimenting between the two is the only way to know for sure.  I will try the m/w/fri as i dont mind pinning less though.

Thank you

Armenian


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Works for me. Say what you want. 12.5 every 4 days does me just fine and I feel great! When I was running 12.5 my ed I was just wasting my product and money.m i am getting blood work. Every 90 days to be exact whether I like it or not. I've been pinning streriods for over 25 years and Ive pinned Ed, eod,and M/w/fr. I have no scar tissues problems.
> 
> Y



Lmao you think it matters that you have ran gear for 25 years? If you want to do it your way cool but its smart to teach smart brother


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

you mentioned scar tissue. I shared my experience, and the fact that it's never been an issue with me. Don't talk to me like i'm stupid. I also shared that after experimenting with Aromasin AND BLOOD WORK. 12.5 MG E4D is what works for me.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Im not talking to you like your stupid...trust me. I havnt pinned for 25 years yet i have scar tissue and quite a bit at that...and that is mainly from m/w/f pinning. Eod and ed pinning has no real substance behind it. Its information that has polluted the boards for years...the same goes for cialis and blood pressure control (another pet peeve of mine lol) Just because you dont have any scar tissue doesnt mean anything really. There are reasons why we teach like we do..so others can avoid our mistakes. You dont see me telling guys its ok to run 4g of gear because i did and i am ok do you? No  because that would be stupid of me. 

You get blood work every 90 days bro...thats hardly enough to get a trend of any sort. Your basing your aromasin dosing off of 90 day blood work tests and that you generally felt good. Thats what we call bro science..there are no real facts behind your statements however there is patho behind the use of aromasin and how it should be used and thats how we need to be teaching guys with less experience than us. There is a right way...a wrong way...and our own way to doing things...lets focus on teaching the right way and letting guys find their own way. Ifa guy is not smart enough to find his own way based on the right way than he is definitely not smart enough to follow an experienced guy, like yourself, path. Thats all I am saying brother....i got no hard feelings toward you and you give alot of good info to guys.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> Arimidex is a much better and effective AI than aromasin anyway. It's also less expensive on the wallet.



I've never used Arimidex. But that's your opinion. There are many who would disagree with you.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Im not talking to you like your stupid...trust me. I havnt pinned for 25 years yet i have scar tissue and quite a bit at that...and that is mainly from m/w/f pinning. Eod and ed pinning has no real substance behind it. Its information that has polluted the boards for years...the same goes for cialis and blood pressure control (another pet peeve of mine lol) Just because you dont have any scar tissue doesnt mean anything really. There are reasons why we teach like we do..so others can avoid our mistakes. You dont see me telling guys its ok to run 4g of gear because i did and i am ok do you? No  because that would be stupid of me.
> 
> You get blood work every 90 days bro...thats hardly enough to get a trend of any sort. Your basing your aromasin dosing off of 90 day blood work tests and that you generally felt good. Thats what we call bro science..there are no real facts behind your statements however there is patho behind the use of aromasin and how it should be used and thats how we need to be teaching guys with less experience than us. There is a right way...a wrong way...and our own way to doing things...lets focus on teaching the right way and letting guys find their own way. Ifa guy is not smart enough to find his own way based on the right way than he is definitely not smart enough to follow an experienced guy, like yourself, path. Thats all I am saying brother....i got no hard feelings toward you and you give alot of good info to guys.



I don't know what's being touted on other boards. I've never been on other boards. I am sharing real world experiences of my own personal use. Like I said, if a guy wants to pin eod then that's his damn choice. I have no problem with it because my personal experience is that i had no issues with it. 

As for the Aromasin, it is a very versatile drug and  yes there is a pharmacokinetics study in men which found that 24 hours after a 25mg does estrgogen levels are still  reduced by 70-80% . 72 hours later,  still reduced by 40%  and I did make the note that if someone is gyno sensitive then 25 mg ed is probably best.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> I don't know what's being touted on other boards. I've never been on other boards. I am sharing real world experiences of my own personal use. Like I said, if a guy wants to pin eod then that's his damn choice. I have no problem with it because my personal experience is that i had no issues with it.
> 
> As for the Aromasin, it is a very versatile drug and  yes there is a pharmacokinetics study in men which found that 24 hours after a 25mg does estrgogen levels are still  reduced by 70-80% . 72 hours later,  still reduced by 40%  and I did make the note that if someone is gyno sensitive then 25 mg ed is probably best.



Ok bro you win


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Ok bro you win



Lol it's not a matter of winning or losing. We are sharing differences of opinions and experiences.


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## wabbitt (Jan 20, 2015)

You ever been around a pregnant woman?  She's moody as hell, among other things.  The main reason is the dramatic hormonal fluctuation.  When your levels go up and down, you get much more moody and irritable, you break out more, and other stuff that to me just isn't worth it.  That's what I know from real world experience.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> You ever been around a pregnant woman?  She's moody as hell, among other things.  The main reason is the dramatic hormonal fluctuation.  When your levels go up and down, you get much more moody and irritable, you break out more, and other stuff that to me just isn't worth it.  That's what I know from real world experience.



Can you elaborate more on your comment? Are you referring to pinning schedules?


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## wabbitt (Jan 20, 2015)

Yes sir I am.  The reason we do eod is because all other ways have been tried.  We get the best ride and the most success when we keep the levels constant.  You may not even notice your mood change, but people around you sure as hell will.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> Yes sir I am.  The reason we do eod is because all other ways have been tried.  We get the best ride and the most success when we keep the levels constant.  You may not even notice your mood change, but people around you sure as hell will.



You're basing that on the half life of the drug.


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## wabbitt (Jan 20, 2015)

What's wrong with that?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> I've never used Arimidex. But that's your opinion. There are many who would disagree with you.



Better is my opinion yes. Efficacy is supported by fact. 

This is what you said:



> Aromasin is the king of of Anti-E's. You need to find the timing and dosage that BEST works for you. It does have a short half life of just 9 hours BUT as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly starts to destroy 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes in your body, and it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours. I know guys who recommend and take 25 mg per day, guys who take 12.5 mg eod. I'm on a gram of test and all I need is 12.5 mg e4d.



If you look at the actual pharmacodynamics and. Kinetics of aromasin you'd see there are a few errors in this statement. 

1) you said as soon as it enters the bloodstream it quickly starts to destroy 80-90% of aromatase enzymes. This is misleading. It takes 12 hours for serum concentrations to peak after a dose. But to saturate blood levels to get the 80-90% reduction in aromatase enzymes it takes closer to a week of dosing to do that. Arimidex will begin to work much much quicker. Arimidex drops estradiol by up to 70% after 1 day and 80% after a week or so. Winner: arimidex

2) you mentioned 80-90% of aromatase enzymes are destroyed by aromasin. This is correct but this is the ENZYME not the ESTRADIOL. If you look at the same exact study this info came from you'll see that total estrogen reduction is around 50-60%. Furthermore, estradiol specific reduction is the lowest of all 3 estrogens....around 30-40% with a max suppression of ~60% at the 12hr mark. So just because it kills the enzyme responsible for conversion to estradiol very effectively, it doesn't do that good of a job of actually lowering estradiol. Arimidex on the other hand reduces estradiol specifically around 70-80%. Winner in E2 reduction: arimidex

3) the half life of aromasin in males as you point out is about 9hrs yet you say it's effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for 72hrs. So you mean to tell me that after 8 half lives worth of metabolism, aromasin is still significantly lowering estrogen? After over 97% of the dose has been metabolized? Do you know that by medical standards after 9 or 10 half lives have passed a drug is considered to be fully metabolized from your body? So we are 1-2 half lives away yet you want to say it still significantly reduces estrogen? Here's a quote from the study: 



> Maximal suppression of estradiol was observed 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment (Fig. 3).



^^^^ 3 days, or 72hours, later and E2 returns to basline........

Now compare this to arimidex which has a half life of roughly 46hours and you'll see why adex can be dosed less frequently and will continue suppression of E2 far longer than aromasin would. Winner: arimidex 

So which one is better? You're right that's an opinion based question and any opinion is valid. But as to which one is more effective well the facts speak for themselves. 

PS: if you are on 1.5g of test and 12.5mg aromasin E4D, when do you do your blood work in relation to the dosing of aromasin...right before, righ after, 2 days after, etc? Can you post up your blood work?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> Yes sir I am.  The reason we do eod is because all other ways have been tried.  We get the best ride and the most success when we keep the levels constant.  You may not even notice your mood change, but people around you sure as hell will.



No, stable blood levels MAY help with sides or mood but not always. It depends on the person. I've pinned test e twice a week and once a week, my mood and sides were no different. Plus there is plenty of research showing it's the peaks that help with muscle and strength gains not the stability of plasma concentrations. So YOU may get the best ride and most success with keeping blood levels stable but that doesn't to for everybody.


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## bronco (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> I have no problem with people pinning eod, I have no problem with people pinning ed, I have no problem with people pinning m/w/f. It's up to the individual and that's what it comes down to. A preference and also how their body responds to certain protocols.



Couldnt agree more... I have pinned short esters all three-of those ways and really cant tell a difference. Personally I choose eod b/c i dont mind pinning, my gear has zero pip, When running 2 or more injectables it cuts down on oil volume, and the same site does not get pinned but once every 2weeks so scar tissue should be a non issue


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> Yes sir I am.  The reason we do eod is because all other ways have been tried.  We get the best ride and the most success when we keep the levels constant.  You may not even notice your mood change, but people around you sure as hell will.



 Your comparing a pregnant hormonal female to guys using gear? This is a new one bahahahaa wow...to answer your question...yes I am a father so i have been around a pregnant chick. They dont have to be pregnant to be hormonal. This statement doesnt even classifybas bro science. Your on a whole other level here brother. If this is all the real world experience you have than i suggest you get your popcorn, have a seat, and watch the show.




bronco said:


> Couldnt agree more... I have pinned short esters all three-of those ways and really cant tell a difference. Personally I choose eod b/c i dont mind pinning, my gear has zero pip, When running 2 or more injectables it cuts down on oil volume, and the same site does not get pinned but once every 2weeks so scar tissue should be a non issue



The point of my argument in not pinning ed or eod is strictly in the fact that it is physiologically pointless. If you want to use more needles and stick yourself every day then by all means rip it up son!! And if your gear doesnt have "pip" (which is one of the dumbest coined term out there and is also one that is used widely by vaginas everywhere) than why would volume have anything to do with pinning?

Im am tired of all this ignorance and preference bullshit...do what the hell you want but dont preach your idiotic decisions on to others


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## wabbitt (Jan 20, 2015)

Exactly what I said, My posts were from personal experience and what worked best for me.  Sustanon was created as a form of trt. It was thought that once a month injections would be feasible.  Turns out, it wasn't so great after all.  The wild roller coaster ride of hormones does intensify the negative sides.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> Exactly what I said, My posts were from personal experience and what worked best for me.  Sustanon was created as a form of trt. It was thought that once a month injections would be feasible.  Turns out, it wasn't so great after all.  The wild roller coaster ride of hormones does intensify the negative sides.



Seriously bro...please take a seat and learn. You cant compare pinning sustanon once a month and going on a "wild roller coaster of hormones" to the difference in pinning ed, eod, and m/w/f. There is no hormonal rollercoaster.


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> Better is my opinion yes. Efficacy is supported by fact.
> 
> This is what you said:
> 
> ...



Yes, doc from the study I have read it states that it says that aromasin is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. And that estrogen levels only begin ro rise again after your body has begun to to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destroyed by the aromasin.

how are you basing all this knowledge you are sharing with me? from studies you have read i take it. again, there are many people who are a lot smarter than me,on this subject, and who are just as smart as you,  who would disagree with you on which is better. I use what works for me and I'm sticking with it.

Again, my REAL LIFE experience and experimentation has me comfortable using 12.5 e4d. As a matter of fact I think i'm going to drop it altogether and only use it as needed if needed. I don't need it as much as i use to before.


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## bronco (Jan 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Your comparing a pregnant hormonal female to guys using gear? This is a new one bahahahaa wow...to answer your question...yes I am a father so i have been around a pregnant chick. They dont have to be pregnant to be hormonal. This statement doesnt even classifybas bro science. Your on a whole other level here brother. If this is all the real world experience you have than i suggest you get your popcorn, have a seat, and watch the show.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol. I think arguing over ones pinning schedule is idiotic. How often do you pin cyp or enanthate?


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

bronco said:


> Lol. I think arguing over ones pinning schedule is idiotic. How often do you pin cyp or enanthate?



So you join the argument then call it idiotic mmmkay...im mot arguing over anyones pinning schedule...this is where you have completely missed the point. For the last dam time inam arguing the fact that pinning ed and eod has no basis other than personal preference. The op didnt have a personal preference...he was doing it because he read that it keeps blood levels normal and will keep sides down....which is incorrect hence my argument. If i am an advocate for the M/W/F pin schedule when do you think I pin? Ed? Lmao 

And i prefer enanthate but that has no relation to this thread...which has gone completely awry


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

OMG!!!!!!!!

For the last dam time inam arguing the fact that pinning ed and eod has no basis other than personal preference.  quote un quote.

lol cobra, I highly respect your knowledge but you see where this ended with your last quote above?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

wabbitt said:


> Exactly what I said, My posts were from personal experience and what worked best for me.  Sustanon was created as a form of trt. It was thought that once a month injections would be feasible.  Turns out, it wasn't so great after all.  The wild roller coaster ride of hormones does intensify the negative sides.



Funny you mention sustanon bc Neibdo (spelling?) has been having tremendous success with injects of once a month. Turns out that wild roller coaster of hormones from sustanon was due to the different esters combined in one solution, not bc once a month pinning isn't feasible.


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## Cobra Strike (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!
> 
> For the last dam time inam arguing the fact that pinning ed and eod has no basis other than personal preference.  quote un quote.
> 
> lol cobra, I highly respect your knowledge but you see where this ended with your last quote above?



Fuk everyone I quit lmao


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 20, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Yes, doc from the study I have read it states that it says that aromasin is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. And that estrogen levels only begin ro rise again after your body has begun to to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destroyed by the aromasin.



On paper this is how it is supposed to work. Clinically it turned out much different. I know exactly which study you are referring to, Evans et. al study from '92, and I'll get to that down below. 



> how are you basing all this knowledge you are sharing with me? from studies you have read i take it. again, there are many people who are a lot smarter than me,on this subject, and who are just as smart as you,  who would disagree with you on which is better. I use what works for me and I'm sticking with it.



Most of the information I've mentioned has come from studies, mainly the Maurus et. Al study from 2003, but also some came from a licensed pharmacist I'm related to, and following Drs. Crisler and Scally. There are plenty of ppl smarter than both of us on this for sure that argue which is better but I ceded you the point that better is a subjective term. I still argue it's more effective at what it's supposed to do in our case, and it also happens to be cheaper. Regular has discussed this same exact topic with me a couple months back and he is one person who I consider smarter than me. He was quoting the same numbers you were from the same study. 

THe issue with the study you are using, Evans et. al, is that this study was done on post-menopausal women not men. This same study listed a half life of around 27hours if I remember correctly but you state the half life is around 9hrs. It is around 9hrs in men but you're referencing same the study I'm talking about. This is what they find:



> The minimal dose which produced the maximum suppression of plasma estrogens was 25 mg, reducing plasma estrone, estradiol, and estrone sulfate to 35, 28, and 39% of basal values, respectively. This maximum suppression, observed at 3 days, persisted for at least 5 days after administration of a single dose.



Remember though this was done on 29 post-menopausal women but also notice how it says MAXIMUM suppression of plasma ESTRADIOL was only around 28%. This is why when one says 80-90% of aromatase enzymes being destroyed is misleading. Apparently killing off 80-90% of aromatase enzymes will only suppress estradiol by 28%. That is weak on both a mg per mg efficacy scale as well as total efficacy when compared to adex. 

The aromasin study done on males, Maurus et. al, says this:



> The 25- and 50-mg doses of daily exemestane had comparable effects in suppressing circulating estrogen concentrations, with 38 ± 24% (mean ± sd; P = 0.002 vs. baseline) and 32 ± 29% (P = 0.008) decreases in estradiol concentrations, 71 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) and 74 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) decreases in estrone concentrations, and 45 ± 27% (P = 0.004) and 51 ± 20% (P = 0.02) decreases in estrone sulfate concentrations after doses of 25 and 50 mg, respectively.
> 
> Maximal suppression of estradiol (62 ± 14%) was observed 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed significantly at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment (Fig. 3).



Notice how estradiol goes to baseline after about 3days after treatment. This study was done on males, not females. Notice how maximum estradiol suppression is only a max of 62% at the standard deviation and this is only at peak time or the 12hr mark. Notice how both 25mg doses and 50mg doses had similar effects in reducing estradiol. Doubling up the dose barely does anything. 

On the 4 forums I frequent, I have YET to see a single blood panel showing anyone tanking their estradiol on aromasin. Ever. If anyone can show me I'd love to see it. This is bc it's  impossible to tank your estradiol on aromasin. In the study you are referring to, they gave those post-menopausal women a dose as high as 800mg of aromasin and it was still well tolerated.....



> There were 38%, 71%, and 45% decreases in estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate concentrations, respectively, after 10 d, approximately 24 h after administration of the last dose of 25 mg exemestane...



Now notice after 10days of daily dosing, after plasma levels basically saturate, 38% is still the max suppression of E2

The study evens references the study you're talking about and goes on to try and explain the varying results:



> The maximal suppression evoked by exemestane at the single dose of 25 mg in the present study was similar to published results in postmenopausal women, but the time course differed (24). Evans et al. (24) reported that a single 25-mg oral dose of exemestane maximally suppressed estradiol concentrations by 72% 3 d after administration, and estradiol levels returned to baseline only 8–11 d after drug administration. In the present study maximal suppression of estradiol of 62% was observed 12 h after exemestane administration and returned to baseline 3–6 d after administration. The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to the shorter half-life of exemestane in males, the lower exposure to exemestane, and the higher levels of the aromatase substrates androstenedione (∼1 ng/ml in young males vs. ∼0.5 ng/ml in postmenopausal women), particularly the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women (∼700 ng/dl vs. ∼20 ng/dl, respectively) (25). This is supported by the observation that in the 10-d study in young males reported here, the suppression of estradiol is weaker (due to the very high levels of the precursor testosterone) than that of estrone (due to androstenedione levels not very different from those in postmenopausal women).









> Again, my REAL LIFE experience and experimentation has me comfortable using 12.5 e4d. As a matter of fact I think i'm going to drop it altogether and only use it as needed if needed. I don't need it as much as i use to before.



I wanted to see actual blood work if possible but if you're comfortable, you're comfortable. I'm in no position to argue what feels best for you unless I'm sitting in Your lap


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## Seeker (Jan 20, 2015)

Doc, my last blood panel was taken a few weeks back. I bury all my results in my garage locked up in tool chest in the cabinet so no one gets their hand on it. YES, stated that Aromasin was king of A/I'S. My mistake, it sure as hell works great for me. I have heard many people claim  that they don't like Arimidex. I have yet to hear anyone say they don't like Aromasin.  ( I'M PRETTY FUKIN SURE THEY ARE ALL GONNA COME OUT OF THE WOOD WORK NOW ) 

Bottom line here is I offered a suggestion to the OP that he should experiment  the A/I with dosage and frequency and find out where it best works for him. Not everyone needs to take it ED. I don't! Some guys don't need it at all. 

WAS I WRONG IN MAKING THAT SUGGESTION?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 21, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Doc, my last blood panel was taken a few weeks back. I bury all my results in my garage locked up in tool chest in the cabinet so no one gets their hand on it. YES, stated that Aromasin was king of A/I'S. My mistake, it sure as hell works great for me. I have heard many people claim  that they don't like Arimidex. I have yet to hear anyone say they don't like Aromasin.  ( I'M PRETTY FUKIN SURE THEY ARE ALL GONNA COME OUT OF THE WOOD WORK NOW )
> 
> Bottom line here is I offered a suggestion to the OP that he should experiment  the A/I with dosage and frequency and find out where it best works for him. Not everyone needs to take it ED. I don't! Some guys don't need it at all.
> 
> WAS I WRONG IN MAKING THAT SUGGESTION?



No Seek. The only issue I took, and I've taken it with others as well, is claiming aromasin is the end all of AIs. If you use it and it works for you, great. I'm happy. I'm not trying to tell you that you have to switch to adex. I'm also not saying you're wrong for advising someone to use aromasin. All I'm saying is that in terms of what it's supposed to do, lower E2, adex happens to be a more effective and cheaper option. That's all. We have several choices on what to use for an AI and you can get most people to have great results with all of them. My point is that aromasin does not work as good at lowering E2 and many people keep saying it kills the enzyme which when you look at the data means diddly squat if we are talking about actual E2 levels. 

Will you still jump naked out of my birthday cake?


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## Seeker (Jan 21, 2015)

Docd187123 said:


> No Seek. The only issue I took, and I've taken it with others as well, is claiming aromasin is the end all of AIs. If you use it and it works for you, great. I'm happy. I'm not trying to tell you that you have to switch to adex. I'm also not saying you're wrong for advising someone to use aromasin. All I'm saying is that in terms of what it's supposed to do, lower E2, adex happens to be a more effective and cheaper option. That's all. We have several choices on what to use for an AI and you can get most people to have great results with all of them. My point is that aromasin does not work as good at lowering E2 and many people keep saying it kills the enzyme which when you look at the data means diddly squat if we are talking about actual E2 levels.
> 
> Will you still jump naked out of my birthday cake?



Of course I wil! Lol that will never change


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## strongbow (Feb 27, 2015)

Wow lots of useful information here, But I think there are some subtle variables, the big one, quality of AI compound used (sadly, but its my opinion that not all manufacturer's AI batches are the same, lol from batch to batch OR manuf to manuf) But also as mentioned many times, everyone's body and there reactions to the AI are different to a degree, especially as related to different AAS. I have always herd, and have gone with the idea that consistent blood levels ( AAS and AI's) was the way to go, - it was the slow,steady way to go. Kinda like to turtle in the classic turtle and rabbit race. Now I hear more and more talk about embracing the roller coaster ride mentality. I think even in this thread someone mentioned that the Peaks get the best results. For anyone with many years experience with AAS, a personal thank you to you for sharing your experience. As an engineer i know how things can be perfect on paper and not even close in real world application. The only thing I know for sure is Women," They don't have to be pregnant to be hormonal. " But I love them anyway.


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