# When to do first cycle



## rburdge84 (Jul 29, 2015)

So I have about 8 years under my belt for lifting. Have researched steroids for a while now but not sure if its too soon to do it. I keep seeing test e is the easiest and/or most beginner friendly cycle. And some say just do test on first cycle. If my goals were to gain a lean 10-15 lbs could it easily be obtained after cycle has ended if I were to do a cycle of test e for 8-12 weeks? Thoughts? Some feedback from people who have done a cycle  of this.


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## LeanHerm (Jul 29, 2015)

What are your stats?? Age weight because you need a good build before you even take the plunge. Also age is a key factor for you get guys already have high hormones and is bad to replace them with even higher hormones.  Best to wait until your test is dropping.  Test e for 12 weeks is usually a good first cycle but makes sure you have everything on hand including an ai and seems.  It's easy putting the weight on the key is keeping the weight on once you pct diet is a key factor as well and if you can't eat you won't grow and won't keep the weight on.


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## GSgator (Jul 29, 2015)

Like already mentioned age is a big a factor also a good time to start AAS is when you have tried everything and you have realized you are basically just spinning your tires. eventually you reach your genetic potential and if you have been hitting it hard for the last 8-10-15 years you know when you have reached that point I'm sure after 8 years of training you have done a lot and found what works and doesn't work. Now adding 10-15lb's of lean muscle that's tough to answer and there's a lot of factors have you reached your genetic potential, have your natural test levels been low for quite sometime and so on. With my first cycle I put on 12-15lb of solid muscle practically overnight but I also had a medical issue were I wasn't producting natural production of test. After that first cycle my second cycle was a bulk I put on nearly 20 lb but that shit wasn't lean muscle i got strong as a Ox but I was also a bloated ballon lol.


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## John Ziegler (Jul 29, 2015)

If you are at your max natural potential right now muscle wise. The gains you make on a 12 week test cycle will not be easily maintained. Pct is going to help you get your natural hormones going again. The size and strength will return to natural at best.


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## rburdge84 (Jul 29, 2015)

Hey my stats are 5'10" and I'm 196 lbs and I'm 24.


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## TriniJuice (Jul 29, 2015)

you have to be 26
or was it 29????


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## John Ziegler (Jul 29, 2015)

rburdge84 said:


> Hey my stats are 5'10" and I'm 196 lbs and I'm 24.



Whats your body fat look like ? Unless you have a competition planned. Sir I recommend you hold out on the steroids for a few more years. Enjoy the gymnasium naturally. Enjoy your natural hormones. Steroids are a gamble when it comes to getting back to natural. There is no guarantee that your going to return to that strapping young horny man that you were pre cycle. There is a good chance that post cycle your testosterone will be low for awhile and or forever. If it's not broke don't fix it. Sure there will be guys in the gym on a cycle walking around like giants. But unless they plan on staying on testosterone forever, they will shrink back down. So you will need to ask yourself. Am I ready to get huge for a couple months then go back to normal ? That's the way the steroid game is played if your doing cycles and pct's. Having guys say wow dude your huge (on cycle) then saying wow dude what happened (off cycle).


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## rburdge84 (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks for all the tips guys. Looks likeninjust need to crack down on nutrition a bit more.


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## HDH (Jul 30, 2015)

How far have you come in the 8 years?

Honestly man, I'd run the cycle unless bodyfat was high. A good question would be, how much of your abs are visible?

You're at a good age and as long as you know how to grow without them, you're first cycle will be great. People that know what they are doing have the best first cycles.

There are a lot of guys around though that have been at it but haven't quite learned their bodies and what it takes. 

Tell us a little more about yourself, how far you have come, views on your diet and what works for you training wise.

H


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jul 30, 2015)

TriniJuice said:


> you have to be 26
> or was it 29????



I think it was 28 trini


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## rburdge84 (Jul 30, 2015)

OK so Ihave been lifting for about 8 years now the first 3 was successful but I ran alot so I couldn't get size like I wanted, I then became a trainer and focused on how to eat. I first did a lean routine with limited carbs, low sodium, low sugar, and I was shredded, didn't even knownincould get an 8 pack but it was visible. After that I tried my first mass scycle ever with increases calories and going heavy on my lifts. Even then it was a total newbie mass routine with my lifts ansd still gained 10 lbs and kept it. Over the next 3 years I would focus alot on hypertrophy routines which added size, it took a while but it worked. Then abt over a year or so ago i got into the big lifts especially deadlift. And I have to keep deads in my routine to keep any kind of mass. I get the most gains with a strength routine. I usually train back/legs 2x a week and once a week for everything else. I find it easy to build my chest but I want a more developed back and legs. I love training back. My bf now is around 13%. It's getting better because I just started adding cardio. The fear of me doing cardio is when I did it before all the time I could not add any size but I do enjoy the increased definition.


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## rburdge84 (Jul 30, 2015)

Oh sorry guys and my age is 24


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## HDH (Jul 30, 2015)

Bud you are just right for a first cycle. 24 years old, about 200lbs, around 13%, plenty of experience in training and diet. 

Test is definitely the best choice for you, it will give you just what your looking for. You will want to get your best bulking routing for this, hypertrophy focused is just fine since you already know it works for you. I don't do heavy anymore so I know it works for me.

Eat, eat, eat. That's gonna get you your size and you know how to keep it. Just adjust the diet to the new weight. You will put on some water that will be lost at the end so a good AI will be beneficial for water retention and a good PCT will need to be in order.

The steroids don't do it for you, they just enhance your knowledge of diet, training and work ethic. Without those, they don't do much good.

Watch your cardio while trying to gain. Unless you eat really big, the cardio can burn the cals needed to grow.

Do you track your cals?

Do a little studying and give a proposed cycle including an AI and PCT.

We could tell you how to do everything but you will learn more trying to put it together yourself.

Post up and we'll help with any adjustments.

H


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## TriniJuice (Jul 30, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I think it was 28 trini





rburdge84 said:


> Oh sorry guys and my age is 24



U got 4yrs to go buddy lol


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## John Ziegler (Aug 2, 2015)

HDH said:


> Bud you are just right for a first cycle. 24 years old, about 200lbs, around 13%, plenty of experience in training and diet.
> 
> Test is definitely the best choice for you, it will give you just what your looking for. You will want to get your best bulking routing for this, hypertrophy focused is just fine since you already know it works for you. I don't do heavy anymore so I know it works for me.
> 
> ...



An endocrine system is typically not done developing until 25 years old. Might at least want to wait till then.


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## HDH (Aug 2, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> If you are at your max natural potential right now muscle wise. The gains you make on a 12 week test cycle will not be easily maintained. Pct is going to help you get your natural hormones going again. The size and strength will return to natural at best.





Zeigler said:


> Whats your body fat look like ? Unless you have a competition planned. Sir I recommend you hold out on the steroids for a few more years. Enjoy the gymnasium naturally. Enjoy your natural hormones. Steroids are a gamble when it comes to getting back to natural. There is no guarantee that your going to return to that strapping young horny man that you were pre cycle. There is a good chance that post cycle your testosterone will be low for awhile and or forever. If it's not broke don't fix it. Sure there will be guys in the gym on a cycle walking around like giants. But unless they plan on staying on testosterone forever, they will shrink back down. So you will need to ask yourself. Am I ready to get huge for a couple months then go back to normal ? That's the way the steroid game is played if your doing cycles and pct's. Having guys say wow dude your huge (on cycle) then saying wow dude what happened (off cycle).





Zeigler said:


> An endocrine system is typically not done developing until 25 years old. Might at least want to wait till then.



So what you're saying here is since he already reached his max natty gains, he shouldn't start a cycle because he won't be able to keep anything.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. That's when you start to cycle. The object is to keep getting bigger. That makes it your opinion that people shouldn't start a cycle until natty levels drop so they can maintain.

It sounds a little silly doesn't it?

He's 24 years old, knows how to train and eat, hit max potential and it's time for a cycle.

If you want to go a few rounds on this, start another thread. Don't f up another thread that doesn't belong to you.

H


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## HDH (Aug 2, 2015)

Bump on the edit ^^^


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## Dex (Aug 2, 2015)

It is amazing that you are 24 years old and have maxed out your natural body frame. According to the different models, at 5'10" and 10% you would be 189lbs (averaging Butt's & Berkhan's model). I would do the hydrostatic tank to see exactly what your body fat percent is. If you are maxed and not growing, and want to get bigger, I would grab some test. 

Now will test give you 10-15lbs of lean muscle after a cycle...probably not. I've read a study where men were given large doses, 600mg of Test Enanathate, daily for 10 weeks and gained 13lbs of lean muscle with good workout routines. I don't have personal experience with Test E but many on here do. And I haven't seen any trying 600mg daily, especially not for a first cycle.


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 2, 2015)

I think you are ready to go... almost. Time to study up on what these compounds are what they do sides and how to manage and how to come off.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 2, 2015)

HDH said:


> So what you're saying here is since he already reached his max natty gains, he shouldn't start a cycle because he won't be able to keep anything.
> 
> That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. That's when you start to cycle. The object is to keep getting bigger. That makes it your opinion that people shouldn't start a cycle until natty levels drop so they can maintain.
> 
> ...



So you own this thread now and my opinion isn't acceptable ? This kid isn't in striving to be in a bodybuilding competition. An endocrine system typically isn't done developing till age 25. Are you assuming that his is not typical for whatever reason ? Are you knowledgeable about the function of the endocrine system and how important it is for the rest of a mans life. You thinking your opinion for him to risk that development over a silly test cycle seems ridiculous to me. Get off your high horse I am entitled to an opinion even if it varies from yours. 

Sir arburge84 in my opinion you should make sure your endocrine system is fully developed and set in stone before playing around with exogenous testosterone til at least 26 years old. A steroid cycle isn't that important for you at this age to expose your natural hormonal development to a risky situation. Better safe than sorry sir.


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 2, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> So you own this thread now and my opinion isn't acceptable ? This kid isn't in striving to be in a bodybuilding competition. An endocrine system typically isn't done developing till age 25. Are you assuming that his is not typical for whatever reason ? Are you knowledgeable about the function of the endocrine system and how important it is for the rest of a mans life. You thinking your opinion for him to risk that development over a silly test cycle seems ridiculous to me. Get off your high horse I am entitled to an opinion even if it varies from yours.
> 
> Sir arburge84 in my opinion you should make sure your endocrine system is fully developed and set in stone before playing around with exogenous testosterone til at least 26 years old. A steroid cycle isn't that important for you at this age to expose your natural hormonal development to a risky situation. Better safe than sorry sir.



You should probably settle down. HDH has been using gear since I was a kid and most certainly does know what he is talking about. 

Reality is the op is a grown man and will do as he pleases. You stated there is a risk he may not recover. From there it's his choice. We all know that's possible. But we do it anyway.  And that is regardless of age. I started in my late twenties. 27 or 28. Guess what. I didn't recover. Age isn't the only factor and HDH knows this.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 2, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> You should probably settle down. HDH has been using gear since I was a kid and most certainly does know what he is talking about.
> 
> Reality is the op is a grown man and will do as he pleases. You stated there is a risk he may not recover. From there it's his choice. We all know that's possible. But we do it anyway.  And that is regardless of age. I started in my late twenties. 27 or 28. Guess what. I didn't recover. Age isn't the only factor and HDH knows this.



My main concern is the endocrine system. I have used steroids since 1988 and know from experience how it can alter an endocrine system. Even back in those days I was getting bloodwork done and was informed of the havoc it reeks during the development of an endocrine system. I'm calm cool and collected never disrespected or gave bad advise only a logical opinion I bring to the table.


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 2, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> My main concern is the endocrine system. I have used steroids since 1988 and know from experience how it can alter an endocrine system. Even back in those days I was getting bloodwork done and was informed of the havoc it reeks during the development of an endocrine system. I'm calm cool and collected never disrespected or gave bad advise only a logical opinion I bring to the table.


That's fine your opinion is welcome as is anyone elses. Don't get butt hurt about it.  And keep in mind we have some experience with this stuff ourselves. We are not debating whether the hpta will recover or not.  Merely expressing opinions on whether or not we give a shit. I know I didnt.


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## Yaya (Aug 2, 2015)

When all ur friends are getting big and ur the little one...then start


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## rburdge84 (Aug 3, 2015)

I have heard the risks of starting steroids early, and how it can reduce your full potential than if you were to start early. My main concern is how my body would respond after I cycled and I was able to !maintain and keep my gains by just lifting heavy and keeping my nutrition in check.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 3, 2015)

rburdge84 said:


> I have heard the risks of starting steroids early, and how it can reduce your full potential than if you were to start early. My main concern is how my body would respond after I cycled and I was able to !maintain and keep my gains by just lifting heavy and keeping my nutrition in check.



Unless you stay on the steroids forever you'll go back to at best what you were prior to the 12 week cycle once your finished with the pct this that and the other. The cell growth that was achieved during the cycle is dependent on the exogenous steroids. If the gains were sustainable than men would generally only need one cycle to bulk up and stay large forever.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 3, 2015)

rburdge84 said:


> I have heard the risks of starting steroids early, and how it can reduce your full potential than if you were to start early. My main concern is how my body would respond after I cycled and I was able to !maintain and keep my gains by just lifting heavy and keeping my nutrition in check.



You can keep all the gains you get from steroids that are within your genetic potential if you're training and diet is on point and conducive to maintaining that. You can even keep some of the gains past your genetic potential as steroid use has been shown to create permanent changes in satellite cells which then help with the proliferation and differentiation stages of muscular hypertorphy. 

Once you cross a certain threshold though past your natural genetic potential your body will require steroids to maintain it. Whether cruising or just occasional cycles is required depends on how car past genetic potential you are and other factors.


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## HDH (Aug 3, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> So you own this thread now and my opinion isn't acceptable ? This kid isn't in striving to be in a bodybuilding competition. An endocrine system typically isn't done developing till age 25. Are you assuming that his is not typical for whatever reason ? Are you knowledgeable about the function of the endocrine system and how important it is for the rest of a mans life. You thinking your opinion for him to risk that development over a silly test cycle seems ridiculous to me. Get off your high horse I am entitled to an opinion even if it varies from yours.
> 
> Sir arburge84 in my opinion you should make sure your endocrine system is fully developed and set in stone before playing around with exogenous testosterone til at least 26 years old. A steroid cycle isn't that important for you at this age to expose your natural hormonal development to a risky situation. Better safe than sorry sir.



No zig, it's your petty bullshit and no respect for the OP thread. I could have quoted your posts and pointed everything out when they were posted but I didn't. Here and other threads as well. Why? Because I know you won't listen to anyone but yourself and will argue the same shit for 10 pages if allowed.

I see you didn't start another thread, you might have to be accountable for the silly advice in this one.

This will be my last post to you in this thread and I stick by starting the cycle, not waiting a few years because natty levels have been reached.

H


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## HDH (Aug 3, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> You can keep all the gains you get from steroids that are within your genetic potential if you're training and diet is on point and conducive to maintaining that. You can even keep some of the gains past your genetic potential as steroid use has been shown to create permanent changes in satellite cells which then help with the proliferation and differentiation stages of muscular hypertorphy.
> 
> Once you cross a certain threshold though past your natural genetic potential your body will require steroids to maintain it. Whether cruising or just occasional cycles is required depends on how car past genetic potential you are and other factors.



I agree. And with the addition of GH or IGF, one could take the limit further. 

The first step has to be taken in order to evaluate what the future might hold.

H


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## John Ziegler (Aug 3, 2015)

HDH said:


> I see you didn't start another thread, you might have to be accountable for the silly advice in this one


 
No I didn't start another thread I'm trying to be the voice of reason here and save an endocrine system which by the way you seem to ignore the question I asked.



Zeigler said:


> An endocrine system typically isn't done developing till age 25. Are you assuming that his is not typical for whatever reason ?



Care to point out the silly advise that have given and should be accountable for sir ?


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## Assassin32 (Aug 3, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> An endocrine system is typically not done developing until 25 years old. Might at least want to wait till then.



Actually your endocrine system develops during puberty and then functions along with your biological clock throughout your life. Where did you get this 25 garbage? That is complete bullshit. The function of the endocrine system doesn't change with age. rBurdge84 sounds like he is more than ready to run a Test cycle. There is nothing wrong with running a cycle at 24.


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## HDH (Aug 3, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> You should probably settle down. HDH has been using gear since I was a kid and most certainly does know what he is talking about.
> 
> Reality is the op is a grown man and will do as he pleases. You stated there is a risk he may not recover. From there it's his choice. We all know that's possible. But we do it anyway.  And that is regardless of age. I started in my late twenties. 27 or 28. Guess what. I didn't recover. Age isn't the only factor and HDH knows this.



Thanks man. In my time around these boards it is a very rare occasion that someone is actually ready to take the plunge. I wasn't ready. I ran my first cycle 3 months after I picked up my first weight.

I know both sides of the coin, being a dumb noob and actually learning what it takes. It's easy for me to see where people are at in their training and diets.

Now, I'm gonna get on my Hoveround, go to the store and get some vitamins (geritol).

Ha,ha, actually I've only got about 10 years of real learning in this and first cycle was about 14 or 15 years ago.

No point in arguing, people are smart enough to already see both sides and make up their minds. I have enough respect for the OP's thread and have better things to do than argue with someone that sees nothing but winning an argument.

H


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## HDH (Aug 3, 2015)

Assassin32 said:


> Actually your endocrine system develops during puberty and then functions along with your biological clock throughout your life. Where did you get this 25 garbage? That is complete bullshit. The function of the endocrine system doesn't change with age. rBurdge84 sounds like he is more than ready to run a Test cycle. There is nothing wrong with running a cycle at 24.



Thanks man, don't waste your breath though. People are also different and their bodies mature at different levels. 

24, 25... really?

H


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## rburdge84 (Aug 3, 2015)

ok I think I have got enough info. I think Im gonna try and keep it natty for another year or so and do a strength routine once I get done with my cutting phase. Get in touch with spongy and get serious and then I might be on my way. Thanks for the help and advice


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## HDH (Aug 3, 2015)

Good luck man. Keep in touch with the board and let us know your progress. You can't go wrong with Spongy.

H


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## ToolSteel (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm still fairly new here. But I think I've said enough to have at least a little respect, so here's my $0.02;

Only you can decide if you're ready. From the stats you listed, and from my reading experience, you're about there physically. 

As for me personally: I just finished my first cycle. TestE 560/wk, added 50/day anavar at the end. In hindsight I should have waited on the var; I wasn't in the condition to utilize it properly. In 14 weeks I went from 5'11" 205# around 16% to 235#. Yes there was some fat gain, but minimal. the most disappointing thing about my cycle was that I royally f*cked up my lower back about 4 weeks in (right as things were taking off). I'm midway through pct and just now able to start deads and back squats again. 
Seeing as you have as much experience as you do, injuries should be at a lower risk than they were for me. Admittedly, my form still needed work. And for that reason, I wish I would have waited. That said, my bench did go from 335 to a super clean 405! 
My diet was not even close to perfect, nor was my training. I have always been genetically gifted which in a small way hurt me; I was able to get above average results natty while eating like shit, and despite my best intentions that carried over into me enhanced training. 
I am keeping my size well, and strength is still leaps and bounds ahead of where is was pre cycle. 

Sorry it's a bit of just rambling about me but here's my point: you are at a better starting point than I was, mentally and probably physically as well. And I don't regret my decision at all OTHER THAN not being perfectly ideal timing. Even a few more months of coaching on my form and diet could have yielded even greater results!

In the end. It's your call. But I do know that you've come to a great place for advice. Test is magical. Keep it simple.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 4, 2015)

rburdge84 said:


> ok I think I have got enough info. I think Im gonna try and keep it natty for another year or so and do a strength routine once I get done with my cutting phase. Get in touch with spongy and get serious and then I might be on my way. Thanks for the help and advice



Wise choice, sounds like you aren't ready to take the I need steroids to grow plunge. 

Z 4 the W


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## HDH (Aug 4, 2015)

Z for the W?

Ha, ha, just because he decided not to doesn't mean he's not ready. 

You are just the type of person I figured you to be.

That green looks good on you.

The funny part is you would make a decent enough member if you weren't always into it with someone and had some respect for others.

H


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## John Ziegler (Aug 4, 2015)

HDH said:


> Z for the W?
> 
> Ha, ha, just because he decided not to doesn't mean he's not ready.
> 
> ...



If I come across arrogant take it with a grain of salt. I never meant to disrespect you.


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## DieYoungStrong (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm just going to leave this here...


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## trodizzle (Aug 4, 2015)




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## trodizzle (Aug 4, 2015)




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## John Ziegler (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't deserve that red dot. I responded to rburge84 when I said Zeigler for the win. I win because he's staying natty for another year. I celebrate that because I don't think he needs to be on a cycle. He's not in a competition hes 24 years old. Not doing anything so important to take the risk for. Doc think's I said that to rub it in to HDH. Not the case at all if it were I would have directed the comment towards HDH and replied it to him or any other individual. Why can't I celebrate the W when I saved rburge84 from taking the plunge early ? 

I'm in the red. I never disrespected anyone. Never gave bad advise. Didn't use profanity. Never disrespected anyone. I got it because I didn't agree with a young 24 year old man taking the steroid plunge. rburge84 is in the gym enjoying what he's doing he's not preparing for anything worthy of a steroid cycle. So yes sir I did win by saving him from risking what hes got going which is a good thing, big deal! My rep shouldn't have been stripped away from me for that.


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## Assassin32 (Aug 4, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> I don't deserve that red dot. I responded to rburge84 when I said Zeigler for the win. I win because he's staying natty for another year. I celebrate that because I don't think he needs to be on a cycle. He's not in a competition hes 24 years old. Not doing anything so important to take the risk for. Doc think's I said that to rub it in to HDH. Not the case at all if it were I would have directed the comment towards HDH and replied it to him or any other individual. Why can't I celebrate the W when I saved rburge84 from taking the plunge early ?
> 
> I'm in the red. I never disrespected anyone. Never gave bad advise. Didn't use profanity. Never disrespected anyone. I got it because I didn't agree with a young 24 year old man taking the steroid plunge. rburge84 is in the gym enjoying what he's doing he's not preparing for anything worthy of a steroid cycle. So yes sir I did win by saving him from risking what hes got going which is a good thing, big deal! My rep shouldn't have been stripped away from me for that.



Actually, your advice on the endocrine system is bad advice and it's untrue. Secondly, If you don't want people to run gear, why are you on this forum? The majority of individuals that use AAS are not bodybuilders or professional athletes.


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## ToolSteel (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't see why it's such a big deal..... ITS THE INTERNET.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 4, 2015)

Assassin32 said:


> Actually, your advice on the endocrine system is bad advice and it's untrue. Secondly, If you don't want people to run gear, why are you on this forum? The majority of individuals that use AAS are not bodybuilders or professional athletes.



I've been running gear since 1988. I've had my bloodwork done many times. My doctors are aware of my steroid use and have told me it is best to wait till after age 25 because it will have a less profound effect on the endocrine system. Regardless of if doctors opinions, studies shown or what a bro science believes in. Don't tell a guy oh your ready for steroids just because he's busting his ass in the gym for 8 years and it's getting harder to make gains. Who are you to say oh ya dude your ready no sweat just do it. Have you ever considered what would happen if he didn't recover from the cycle ? Does he have a 100% chance of recovering ? No. Do you want to be the guy who told a young healthy man that loves the gym to start up using steroids to get big and he now doesn't have as much fun in the gym without drugs ?  Yes that's you. Do I want to be the guy who said he should wait and now he has no worries ? Yes. I didn't give bad advice sir you did. Your the one telling him to do do do. I'm the one that said no no no. So you sir gave the bad advice not me. He's not in competition your not his personal trainer so don't push your hurry up and buy attitude on him.


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## DieYoungStrong (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> I've been running gear since 1988. I've had my bloodwork done many times. My doctors are aware of my steroid use and have told me it is best to wait till after age 25 because it will have a less profound effect on the endocrine system. Regardless of if doctors opinions, studies shown or what a bro science believes in. Don't tell a guy oh your ready for steroids just because he's busting his ass in the gym for 8 years and it's getting harder to make gains. Who are you to say oh ya dude your ready no sweat just do it. Have you ever considered what would happen if he didn't recover from the cycle ? Does he have a 100% chance of recovering ? No. Do you want to be the guy who told a young healthy man that loves the gym to start up using steroids to get big and he now doesn't have as much fun in the gym without drugs ?  Yes that's you. Do I want to be the guy who said he should wait and now he has no worries ? Yes. I didn't give bad advice sir you did. Your the one telling him to do do do. I'm the one that said no no no. So you sir gave the bad advice not me. He's not in competition your not his personal trainer so don't push your hurry up and buy attitude on him.



Dude just shut up already. You are full of shit. Your doc didn't tell you it was best to wait until after you are 25 to use steroids. Did you tell him when you were 24 and he yelled at you? Doubt it. Doctors don't condone steroid use and don't give advice on it. 

The priest at church told me it was best to wait until I was married to fuk. Doesn't mean I listened to him.


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## Assassin32 (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> I've been running gear since 1988. I've had my bloodwork done many times. My doctors are aware of my steroid use and have told me it is best to wait till after age 25 because it will have a less profound effect on the endocrine system. Regardless of if doctors opinions, studies shown or what a bro science believes in. Don't tell a guy oh your ready for steroids just because he's busting his ass in the gym for 8 years and it's getting harder to make gains. Who are you to say oh ya dude your ready no sweat just do it. Have you ever considered what would happen if he didn't recover from the cycle ? Does he have a 100% chance of recovering ? No. Do you want to be the guy who told a young healthy man that loves the gym to start up using steroids to get big and he now doesn't have as much fun in the gym without drugs ?  Yes that's you. Do I want to be the guy who said he should wait and now he has no worries ? Yes. I didn't give bad advice sir you did. Your the one telling him to do do do. I'm the one that said no no no. So you sir gave the bad advice not me. He's not in competition your not his personal trainer so don't push your hurry up and buy attitude on him.



Where did you ever see me say do, do, do? Please don't make shit up and also spare me your self-righteous bullshit.  All I said was that if he felt ready to do a cycle, 24 was plenty old enough. I'm not pushing anyone to do anything, dude. I could care less if he ever runs a cycle. And again, this whole, endocrine system isn't developed until your 25 is bullshit, is not true. It develops during puberty and it's function does not change with age.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 5, 2015)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Dude just shut up already. You are full of shit. Your doc didn't tell you it was best to wait until after you are 25 to use steroids. Did you tell him when you were 24 and he yelled at you? Doubt it. Doctors don't condone steroid use and don't give advice on it.
> 
> The priest at church told me it was best to wait until I was married to fuk. Doesn't mean I listened to him.



Look it up sir. Why are you calling me out ? I wasn't talking to you. Telling me to shut up and I'm full of shit now. Go ahead and doubt it. I never said my doctors condone it. They asked me why my bloodwork shows this and that. I said I'm on and have used this and that. They told me I was too young to be using testosterone's and it is worse on the endocrine system before 25. I cant believe no one here has ever heard of that when I heard it from 2 different doctors in 2 different states. But either way I don't deserve to be told to shut up and told I'm full of shit. Why is everyone kicking my ass here ? I'm the one bringing take a good hard look at the overall picture before you use steroids. You guy's are nailing me to the cross and throwing stones at me for it.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 5, 2015)

You saying  what i say if garbage and bs when I'm the guy saying not to use steroids yet is say do do do. Thats saying don't listen to that guy its ok man your more than ready. So if your not on the gungho bandwagon you get negs here I see ok wont go against anything again lets just all follow suit that sounds more fun and logical.



Assassin32 said:


> Actually your endocrine system develops during puberty and then functions along with your biological clock throughout your life. Where did you get this 25 garbage? That is complete bullshit. The function of the endocrine system doesn't change with age. rBurdge84 sounds like he is more than ready to run a Test cycle. There is nothing wrong with running a cycle at 24.


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## DieYoungStrong (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> Look it up sir. Why are you calling me out ? I wasn't talking to you. Telling me to shut up and I'm full of shit now. Go ahead and doubt it. I never said my doctors condone it. They asked me why my bloodwork shows this and that. I said I'm on and have used this and that. They told me I was too young to be using testosterone's and it is worse on the endocrine system before 25. I cant believe no one here has ever heard of that when I heard it from 2 different doctors in 2 different states. But either way I don't deserve to be told to shut up and told I'm full of shit. Why is everyone kicking my ass here ? I'm the one bringing take a good hard look at the overall picture before you use steroids. You guy's are nailing me to the cross and throwing stones at me for it.



I'm not nailing you to a cross. Between the chat and this thread you haven't shut up about this thread all day. So I am telling you to drop it and shut up. You're acting like a 2 yr old having a temper tantrum. Just breath deep and let it go.


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## ToolSteel (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong for advising him to wait. We all get that. Just the way you start attacking everyone, and by everyone I mean people that have been here far longer than you and built their reputation, that's what makes you look like a kank.


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## jennerrator (Aug 5, 2015)

This thread is going no where fast.......................................................................


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## Dex (Aug 5, 2015)

Z 4 the W. UGBB for the L since you probably ran the OP away from this forum. Strong work.


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## John Ziegler (Aug 5, 2015)

Hurry everyone jump on the Zeigler sucks bandwagon. Not one single person backed me up on this not one. See me getting my ass kicked so everyone get your kicks. Thanks Doc you ruined me


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## trodizzle (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> Hurry everyone jump on the Zeigler sucks bandwagon. Not one single person backed me up on this not one. See me getting my ass kicked so everyone get your kicks. Thanks Doc you ruined me








Have you had your bloods done lately? Wondering where your estrogen is at right about now.


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## McDuffy (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> No I didn't start another thread I'm trying to be the voice of reason here and save an endocrine system which by the way you seem to ignore the question I asked.
> 
> 
> 
> Care to point out the silly advise that have given and should be accountable for sir ?



LMAO if the endocrine system is fully developed at 25 and he is 24 then i imagine his is 98-99% developed. He's good to go. 
I think 24 is a good age to start, i was 23 or 24 my first cycle, biggest mistake i made was not using an AI because i thought nolva was suffient


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## McDuffy (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> Wise choice, sounds like you aren't ready to take the I need steroids to grow plunge.
> 
> Z 4 the W



Z for the W!!! hahahahahhahahahahahaa


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## Luscious Lei (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> Hurry everyone jump on the Zeigler sucks bandwagon. Not one single person backed me up on this not one. See me getting my ass kicked so everyone get your kicks. Thanks Doc you ruined me



Zeig, I do think that the guys are going a bit hard on you and I've expressed my opinion to a few fellow members here.
So no, not everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, and yes, some people actually back you up.

I think that unfortunately there have been a few misunderstandings at the very beginning when you joined and that it went downhill form there.

But dude, the reality is that UG is a community, a group, and a pretty tight one. See it as a house where you just stepped in as a guest. It takes time to be accepted and that often goes with keeping your mouth shut even when you're in your good right or have been misunderstood. You must have a tough skin to hand around here and getting into frontal arguments won't lead you anywhere. HDH nailed it when he said:

"The funny part is you would make a decent enough member if you weren't always into it with someone and had some respect for others."

Don't take what is said on the board too personally, don't feel butt hurt, don't go confrontational, and I'm sure you will fit in. I think you are in fact respectful to others but that unfortunately you also present some occasional severe cases of poor choice of words in your posts.

I would suggest you to cool down, shake hands with the members you're antagonizing, and move on. I bet that if you do so you'll feel home in no time.


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## HDH (Aug 5, 2015)

Zeigler said:


> Hurry everyone jump on the Zeigler sucks bandwagon. Not one single person backed me up on this not one. See me getting my ass kicked so everyone get your kicks. Thanks Doc you ruined me



I won't jump on the wagon man.

You do have to admit those pics were hilarious though   

I've seen you in quarrels more than anyone here or even in other places here recently. You've got some good things to say but at times you're not very constructive about how you go about it.

Taking over someone else's thread shows disrespect to the person that started it. That's why I said start another thread and we can go as many pages as you like. It's not the first thread I've seen this happen in and it's really not cool to do it in a new member's thread. There are plenty of boards out there that they can go to without their thread getting taken over.

It's all good man. I'm cool with you but sometimes it's best to put the board and it's members before pride, ego and winning the fight.

Just start a new thread for the discussion.

====================

Thanks Doc, I respect you for the respect you have shown me.

H


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## McDuffy (Aug 5, 2015)

Luscious Lei said:


> Zeig, I do think that the guys are going a bit hard on you and I've expressed my opinion to a few fellow members here.
> So no, not everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, and yes, some people actually back you up.
> 
> I think that unfortunately there have been a few misunderstandings at the very beginning when you joined and that it went downhill form there.
> ...



This is good advice Zeigler, just let people disagree with you and leave it at that. Honestly i think you hijacking threads is hilarious but if it pisses people off then you should stop doing it. People are here to talk about gear/BB/PL, help each other out and enjoy themselves, not here to argue. 

Z 4 the W!!!


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 8, 2015)

Zeeg. Ziggy. My zigga.  Zegroe.  Start the thread on age... I want the discussion.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 10, 2015)

trust me do not bulk at 13% bodyfat.  u WILL look like shit!  especially with the test in there.  if ur cool with being seen with a huge bloated moonface thrn go for it lol.  

i did the same thing and after 8 weeks i was like **** this and started cutting. got down to 6% bodyfat and resumed bulking.  the more bodyfat u have the higher the test to estrogen conversion will be and the less test to DHT conversion there will be.  if ur dead set on using steroids then use masteron solo while u get your bodyfat down.  then add test in and blow up from a lean state.


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## ToolSteel (Aug 10, 2015)

Bulking from 13 just means you can't eat like a moron. 

Always run a test base. Even if it's trt level.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 10, 2015)

you shouldnt be eating like a moron no matter what ur bodyfat% is.   the leaner u are the more muscle and less fat u will gain.  at 6% bodyfat u will be EXTREMELY insulin sensitive which is very important.  everyones best gains will always be when coming from a lean and depleted state.  u will also look much bigger and more 3D because when theres not much fat covering the muscles they kinda pop out at u.

oh and while i agree its good to have at least 100mg of test in there its not mandatory.  steroids dont shut u down as much as u think they do.  ive seen guys bloodwork while on tren solo and their test levels were around 300 after 3 months on just 300mg tren e per week.  so it is low but i guess since tren is such a strong andogen it made up for the lack of test.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 10, 2015)

i dunno about u but id rather look like a bodybuilder not a permabulker.  anyone can look good with a shirt on.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 10, 2015)

Not everyone wants to be 6% not can everyone get down to 6% realistically. There's no need to be at 6% to bulk. Not everyone here aspires to be a bodybuilder either. We have a huge group of powerlifters and strength athletes who could give two shits what they look like.....me being one of them.


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## ToolSteel (Aug 10, 2015)

I wear my fur vest with pride. Let's go deadlift.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 12, 2015)

fair enough. just keep in mind u can still be very strong while looking good.  Dan Green is a perfect example.  dudes a monster and competes at like 8-9%


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## ToolSteel (Aug 12, 2015)

"Looking good" is an objective term. I don't find shaved and oiled washboard abs a turn-on.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 12, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> fair enough. just keep in mind u can still be very strong while looking good.  Dan Green is a perfect example.  dudes a monster and competes at like 8-9%



Dan Green does not compete at 8-9% BF


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 12, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> "Looking good" is an objective term. I don't find shaved and oiled washboard abs a turn-on.


So what kind of a guys physique does turn you on?


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## ToolSteel (Aug 12, 2015)

Haha I knew that was coming. 

To be honest I've just never been a fan of the peeled/shredded garden hose veins look. At least not something I aspired to for myself. I prefer a "holy shit he could dl my car" look.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 12, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Dan Green does not compete at 8-9% BF


yes he does.   this is 8-9% with a ton of water retention from all the dbol, anadrol and everything else he takes while peaking.  water makes a huge difference in ones appearance   https://www.google.ca/search?q=dan+...eXBsLSkxwIVUi-ICh0ZOgJ0#imgrc=3Uvxfpfd1pJseM:


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 12, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> yes he does.   this is 8-9% with a ton of water retention from all the dbol, anadrol and everything else he takes while peaking.  water makes a huge difference in ones appearance   https://www.google.ca/search?q=dan+...eXBsLSkxwIVUi-ICh0ZOgJ0#imgrc=3Uvxfpfd1pJseM:



Sure water does make a huge difference in appearance but that still isn't 8-9%


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## ToolSteel (Aug 12, 2015)

He's probably going of the bb.com forum guidelines. 
Add 5% every time he references bf% and the posts start making a lot more sense.


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## Gt500face (Aug 13, 2015)

At birth....


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 13, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> He's probably going of the bb.com forum guidelines.
> Add 5% every time he references bf% and the posts start making a lot more sense.


lol yeah of course u would say that.  u never been lean a day in your life.  im honestly insulted that some wannabe on his first cycle is criticizing my methods and suggestions lol.  this is exactly why pros dont join forums except for gh15.org   it must suck knowing theres people much leaner than u who dont even focus on powerlifting and are stronger than u will ever be.  and for the record i never been on bodybuilding.com.   have fun looking like shit and using powerlifting as an excuse haha.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> lol yeah of course u would say that.  u never been lean a day in your life.  im honestly insulted that some wannabe on his first cycle is criticizing my methods and suggestions lol. this is exactly why pros dont join forums except for gh15.org   it must suck knowing theres people much leaner than u who dont even focus on powerlifting and are stronger than u will ever be.  and for the record i never been on bodybuilding.com.   have fun looking like shit and using powerlifting as an excuse haha.



Not surprisingly it all makes sense now. 

If I promise to hold back my laughter will someone give me a good star?


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## ToolSteel (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> lol yeah of course u would say that.  u never been lean a day in your life.  im honestly insulted that some wannabe on his first cycle is criticizing my methods and suggestions lol.  this is exactly why pros dont join forums except for gh15.org   it must suck knowing theres people much leaner than u who dont even focus on powerlifting and are stronger than u will ever be.  and for the record i never been on bodybuilding.com.   have fun looking like shit and using powerlifting as an excuse haha.


Actually, I have been 11%, 205#, 5'10", completely natural. So nice try. 
You're quite immature for someone who supposedly has so much experience. 

Resorting to speculation based insults simply makes you look even more like a fool.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 13, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> Actually, I have been 11%, 205#, 5'10", completely natural. So nice try.
> You're quite immature for someone who supposedly has so much experience.
> 
> Resorting to speculation based insults simply makes you look even more like a fool.



It's what usually happens when the person is either immature or arguing an indefensible stance n


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## DieYoungStrong (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> lol yeah of course u would say that.  u never been lean a day in your life.  im honestly insulted that some wannabe on his first cycle is criticizing my methods and suggestions lol.  this is exactly why pros dont join forums except for gh15.org   it must suck knowing theres people much leaner than u who dont even focus on powerlifting and are stronger than u will ever be.  and for the record i never been on bodybuilding.com.   have fun looking like shit and using powerlifting as an excuse haha.



I wish I cares enough to give you an infraction or something, but your reference of gh15 tells me you are hopeless, naive, or both. 

Either way, I'll assume you're on a gram of tren year round....


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 13, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> Actually, I have been 11%, 205#, 5'10", completely natural. So nice try.
> You're quite immature for someone who supposedly has so much experience.
> 
> Resorting to speculation based insults simply makes you look even more like a fool.


tren gives me a short fuse. the fact that someone with a body like yours is criticizing me is an insult in itself.  11% isn't lean btw.  
uve been following me around slamming my methods when u have 1 cycle.  Ill post another pic of dan where he clearly is single digit bodyfat.  https://www.google.ca/search?q=dan+...PbMruWkxwIV1TaICh0qjQJN#imgrc=om26pjZYKRMGgM:  and ur 

asking for me to be banned when i havent broken any rules(?)  it may not seem like it but im trying to help.  telling someone to bulk at 13% is bad advice, period.  a good bulk most will gain 2-3% bodyfat.  

at 16% bodyfat on gear your bloodwork will most likely be shit.  triglycerides way up, estrogen up, blood pressure up. plus gear just works better the leaner u are.  u would know that if u made the effort to get lean.


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## Bust My Ass (Aug 13, 2015)

DieYoungStrong said:


> I wish I cares enough to give you an infraction or something, but your reference of gh15 tells me you are hopeless, naive, or both.
> 
> Either way, I'll assume you're on a gram of tren year round....


These are the kind of people that come from gh15 https://instagram.com/p/y-76zLxIdj/?taken-by=michael_c_03 ...what is so funny about that?   and please read my first few posts on this forum if u think im naive


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## DocDePanda187123 (Aug 13, 2015)

If you keep insulting members it will temp ban you and yes, that is a violation of our rules. If you want to flame someone we have a flame forum for that.


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## PillarofBalance (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> tren gives me a short fuse. the fact that someone with a body like yours is criticizing me is an insult in itself.  11% isn't lean btw.
> uve been following me around slamming my methods when u have 1 cycle.  Ill post another pic of dan where he clearly is single digit bodyfat.  https://www.google.ca/search?q=dan+...PbMruWkxwIV1TaICh0qjQJN#imgrc=om26pjZYKRMGgM:  and ur
> 
> asking for me to be banned when i havent broken any rules(?)  it may not seem like it but im trying to help.  telling someone to bulk at 13% is bad advice, period.  a good bulk most will gain 2-3% bodyfat.
> ...


In a couple weeks when I am shooting the shit with Dan I will be sure to ask him what his BF% is.


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## LeanHerm (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> tren gives me a short fuse. the fact that someone with a body like yours is criticizing me is an insult in itself.  11% isn't lean btw.
> uve been following me around slamming my methods when u have 1 cycle.  Ill post another pic of dan where he clearly is single digit bodyfat.  https://www.google.ca/search?q=dan+...PbMruWkxwIV1TaICh0qjQJN#imgrc=om26pjZYKRMGgM:  and ur
> 
> asking for me to be banned when i havent broken any rules(?)  it may not seem like it but im trying to help.  telling someone to bulk at 13% is bad advice, period.  a good bulk most will gain 2-3% bodyfat.
> ...


leanherm in the hizzy.


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## LeanHerm (Aug 13, 2015)

Bust My Ass said:


> These are the kind of people that come from gh15 https://instagram.com/p/y-76zLxIdj/?taken-by=michael_c_03 ...what is so funny about that?   and please read my first few posts on this forum if u think im naive



He's cute I'd hit it!!! Invite him here to a good board


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## ToolSteel (Aug 13, 2015)

So if Dan is 8, that guy must be about 1.5?


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