# Time for aromatase inhibitor?



## DavidtoZeus (Dec 28, 2015)

Okay, Tonight will be my fifth shot of Test E. Im taking 250 twice/week and this will be the beginning of my third week. I have arimidex on hand but wanted to wait until symptoms to begin using it. I believe I am beginning to feel the sides but nothing definite. Should I start the Arimidex at .25 every three days? Here are some of the things I "think" I am feeling. Keep in mind I was aware of all of these side effects before beginning so its hard for me to tell if its physical or my mind playing tricks on me. 

1) Increase in libido..I didnt think this was possible because I have always been a horny guy but last night my wife and I get border line inappropriate at the movie theater and had to leave before the end of Star Wars. We were both aware of the possibility of increased sex drive before the cycle so it could be mental for both of us. 

2) Slightly emotional- I just started to teer up during the last five minutes of "Hoosiers". This actually wouldn't be too out of the ordinary for me if I watched the whole movie through but I turned it on at the very last scene. 

3) Ever so slightly sore nipples and testicles.. I cant even be sure if they are or not.. 

I seem to be running a little bit hot and I have gained six pounds since the first pin while eating pretty clean so I'm beginning to think my Test is the real deal. Legitimacy of the product was another reason I wanted to wait on the AI. At this point if the test is not real this is one hell of a Placebo effect. Should I start the Arimidex? What do you think?


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## Rumpy (Dec 28, 2015)

Yes, start it now.  Remember adex is an aromatase inhibitor, not a SERM, so it only blocks the production of new estrogen, it does nothing for the estrogen you already have.  If you wait for symptoms to arise, it's already too late and you have to for the existing estrogen to clear your system (or use a SERM if need be).

What ever you do, if you get high E2 symptoms do not take an AI and think it's not working then take more, you will crash your E2, which is not fun.  Like I said, an AI only blocks new estrogen from being created, it does not lower the estrogen you have.


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## Schredder (Dec 28, 2015)

You should always, always, always run an AI from day one.  Why be reactive when you can just as easily be proactive.  Why wait till gyno starts forming and you have an unhealthy level of edema to say 'I think I need an AI now'.  Thats not wise.  When you inject Testosterone it will aromatize no matter what.  To what degree?  That will depend on the individual.  But, never the less, it will aromatize.  We must be on top of that as to not let Estradiol get to high out of range causing a whack of unwated, and actually unhealthy, side effects.

Using an AI or NOT is a terrible and inacurate way to judge the legitimacy of your gear.

Also, judging whether or not your Estradiol is too high or too low base on what you 'feel' is a terrible way of going about things as well.

The legitimacy of your gear should be based on one thing only....TT levels and whether or not LH and FSH are shut down based on blood work done around week 6 of cycle.

Whether or not Estradiol is in range should also be based on one thing only....a sensitive E2 essay around week 6 also.  You can adjust AI dose accordingly based on this information.

Playing a guessing game could land you in more trouble than youd like.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 28, 2015)

Schredder said:


> You should always, always, always run an AI from day one.  Why be reactive when you can just as easily be proactive.  Why wait till gyno starts forming and you have an unhealthy level of edema to say 'I think I need an AI now'.  Thats not wise.  When you inject Testosterone it will aromatize no matter what.  To what degree?  That will depend on the individual.  But, never the less, it will aromatize.  We must be on top of that as to not let Estradiol get to high out of range causing a whack of unwated, and actually unhealthy, side effects.
> 
> Using an AI or NOT is a terrible and inacurate way to judge the legitimacy of your gear.
> 
> ...



No absolutes!  Like you said depends on the individual... I can run over 2 grams plus dbol and won't need an ai.  Only time I need ancillary is nolva with drol.

God I love drol.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 28, 2015)

DavidtoZeus said:


> Okay, Tonight will be my fifth shot of Test E. Im taking 250 twice/week and this will be the beginning of my third week. I have arimidex on hand but wanted to wait until symptoms to begin using it. I believe I am beginning to feel the sides but nothing definite. Should I start the Arimidex at .25 every three days? Here are some of the things I "think" I am feeling. Keep in mind I was aware of all of these side effects before beginning so its hard for me to tell if its physical or my mind playing tricks on me.
> 
> 1) Increase in libido..I didnt think this was possible because I have always been a horny guy but last night my wife and I get border line inappropriate at the movie theater and had to leave before the end of Star Wars. We were both aware of the possibility of increased sex drive before the cycle so it could be mental for both of us.
> 
> ...



Blood work is always your best bet. 

Keep in mind that if your Estradiol is out of range, so is your test.


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## gymrat827 (Dec 28, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> No absolutes!  Like you said depends on the individual... I can run over 2 grams plus dbol and won't need an ai.  Only time I need ancillary is nolva with drol.
> 
> God I love drol.





PillarofBalance said:


> Blood work is always your best bet.
> 
> Keep in mind that if your Estradiol is out of range, so is your test.



bloods will tell the you the 100% truth.  for 8.5/9 out of 10 guys, we/they need an AI.  Shit i run one natty just cuz i have a tiny bit of gyno.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

Schredder said:


> You should always, always, always run an AI from day one.  Why be reactive when you can just as easily be proactive.  Why wait till gyno starts forming and you have an unhealthy level of edema to say 'I think I need an AI now'.  Thats not wise.  When you inject Testosterone it will aromatize no matter what.  To what degree?  That will depend on the individual.  But, never the less, it will aromatize.  We must be on top of that as to not let Estradiol get to high out of range causing a whack of unwated, and actually unhealthy, side effects.
> 
> Using an AI or NOT is a terrible and inacurate way to judge the legitimacy of your gear.
> 
> ...



An AI will neither prevent gyno nor edemas.


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## Schredder (Dec 28, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> An AI will neither prevent gyno nor edemas.



An AI most certainly can prevent both.

DIET ASIDE......

Testosterone aromatizes into Estradiol via the Aromatase Enzyme.  One side effect of high Estradiol is edema.  How do we prevent this conversion?  An AI.

Also, preventing, or at least minimizing the conversion of Testosterone into Estradiol will significant lower the changes of it attaching to, and activating the Estrogen receptor in the mammary glands.  The more Estradiol, the higher the chance of Gynocomastia appearing.  How do we not let Estradiol get to high?  An AI.  

I have seen, in some cases, where some guys, even though Estradiol is in range still have issues will gyno slightly.  If this is the case, then a SERM, such as Nolvadex or Raloxifene can be used alongside the AI.  But, keep in mind one should not use Nolvadex if his AI of choice is Arimidex as it has the potential to lower the effectiveness of the drug which make no sense because then you will end up with protection from gyno but higher E2 levels than one would want.  If a SERM and an AI are going to be used together, my combination of choice is Aromasin/Nolvadex.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 28, 2015)

I am still just wondering why some say not to judge E2 issues by sides when we don't know what the proper E2 level is when you have a total test of like 2500... 

Also am I the only one who would prefer aromasin?


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## Schredder (Dec 28, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> I am still just wondering why some say not to judge E2 issues by sides when we don't know what the proper E2 level is when you have a total test of like 2500...
> 
> Also am I the only one who would prefer aromasin?



I am a firm believer that one should keep E2 in range as per optimal range on a blood panel, men don't need excess estrogen, its not healthy.

I also prefer Aromasin.  Its a suicide inhibitor, which, IMO, I find to be much more efficient.


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## Schredder (Dec 28, 2015)

I just dont like a guessing game.  Aside from Gyno and water retention, which is a lot of the time what guys think are the only side effects of high Estradiol, we have things like BP being affected, mood and libido issues, prostate issues.  All things that can be linked to high E2 and all things we dont want as men.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

Schredder said:


> An AI most certainly can prevent both.
> 
> DIET ASIDE......
> 
> Testosterone aromatizes into Estradiol via the Aromatase Enzyme.  One side effect of high Estradiol is edema.  How do we prevent this conversion?  An AI.



I didn't say edema is not a side of effect of elevated estradiol, just that an AI does not prevent edema. There are plenty of case studies of people on TRT with and without concurrent AI to prove this. 



> Also, preventing, or at least minimizing the conversion of Testosterone into Estradiol will significant lower the changes of it attaching to, and activating the Estrogen receptor in the mammary glands.  The more Estradiol, the higher the chance of Gynocomastia appearing.  How do we not let Estradiol get to high?  An AI.
> 
> I have seen, in some cases, where some guys, even though Estradiol is in range still have issues will gyno slightly.  If this is the case, then a SERM, such as Nolvadex or Raloxifene can be used alongside the AI.  But, keep in mind one should not use Nolvadex if his AI of choice is Arimidex as it has the potential to lower the effectiveness of the drug which make no sense because then you will end up with protection from gyno but higher E2 levels than one would want.  If a SERM and an AI are going to be used together, my combination of choice is Aromasin/Nolvadex.



Significantly lowering the chances and preventing are two different things. 

How then do people get gyno on non-aromatizing compounds? Drol for example does not aromatize but is known to cause gyno. Will an AI prevent or even lower the chance of gyno in this case? No, it won't, bc drol doesn't convert to estrogen so an AI won't prevent gyno. 

What about nandrolone and trenbolone? Nandrolone mainly aromatizes in the liver, not as much in adipose tissue when compared to test, and overall aromatizes much less than test yet still causes gyno regardless of AI use. Same with tren except tren doesn't aromatize at all. Progestagenic compounds like these can still lead to gyno by their stimulatory effect on mammary tissue. Again, an AI does not prevent gyno; which doesn't mean an AI isn't useful or controlling estradiol levels is not important. 

You also can use arimidex and Nolvadex together without issue. The belief was that Nolvadex reduced serum concentrations of arimidex, which is true, but with follow up this was shown to be of non-clinical significance bc arimidex's efficacy at reducing E2 was unchanged. 



> British Journal of Cancer (2001) 85, 317–324. doi:10.1054/bjoc.2001.1925 www.bjcancer.com
> Published online 31 July 2001
> Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the ‘Arimidex™ and Tamoxifen Alone or in Combination’ (ATAC) trial
> 
> ...



http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v85/n3/abs/6691925a.html


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> I am still just wondering why some say not to judge E2 issues by sides when we don't know what the proper E2 level is when you have a total test of like 2500...



Bc estrogen's effects on your BMD and prostate for example don't care what your TT level is at. 



> Also am I the only one who would prefer aromasin?



Maybe. I think adex is much better in almost every aspect but you and I have gone over that before lol


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

Schredder said:


> I just dont like a guessing game.  Aside from Gyno and water retention, which is a lot of the time what guys think are the only side effects of high Estradiol, we have things like BP being affected, mood and libido issues, prostate issues.  All things that can be linked to high E2 and all things we dont want as men.



Blood pressure is another thing E2 is not responsible for. People get HTN when running compounds that don't even aromatize. 

Example: how does Proviron raise BP while it also is claimed that it's good at shedding water weight?


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## DF (Dec 28, 2015)

As long as we are talking AI in this thread...

After 4 years of trt/cruise/blast I'm still trying to get my Adex dose corrected.  At this point I may switch to aromasin.  

Here is my issue:  I do have gyno & had it pre trt (sore swollen nips to the point it was uncomfortable to lay on my stomach).  My pre trt E2 showed 72.  Now, that is pretty high considering my total test was in the 300 range. I took Letro which drastically reduced my symptoms.

After 4 years of trying to get a dose of Adex that would get my E2 in range.  My last Blood work done showed my E2  less than 5.  I was taking 250mg/5 Days with an adex dose of .1 mg..... Yes    that's .1mg of Adex.  Now, you'd think I could drop the Adex all together without having an issue........ However, My nips are now sore & swollen on a dose of 250mg/week.  

Any suggestions?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

DF said:


> As long as we are talking AI in this thread...
> 
> After 4 years of trt/cruise/blast I'm still trying to get my Adex dose corrected.  At this point I may switch to aromasin.
> 
> ...



Nolva or ralox for the gyno. 

<5 I'm guessing was ROSCHE ELCIA method or immunoassay? Try getting LC/MS on estradiol testing especially if it's that low. 

What's your TT levels at on 250mg/wk? Reason I ask is most will be able to alleviate symptoms and get within range on much less than that amount. So reducing your total dosage is one option. 

Another option is smaller more frequent injections, you could even use a slin pin.


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## DF (Dec 28, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Nolva or ralox for the gyno.
> 
> <5 I'm guessing was ROSCHE ELCIA method or immunoassay? Try getting LC/MS on estradiol testing especially if it's that low.
> 
> ...



Just looked at the paper work again.  correction E2 was 7.1 using the Roche ELCIA.  I did reduce my test after this last blood work.  I'm currently taking .75ml of 250mg Cyp/ 5 days.  I only use slin pins while on  trt or cruise.  I do have nolva on hand & have been considering using.  Any suggestions on a dose?

Test level at the 250/5 days was >1500  Bloods taken on the day pin is due.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 28, 2015)

DF said:


> Just looked at the paper work again.  correction E2 was 7.1 using the Roche ELCIA.  I did reduce my test after this last blood work.  I'm currently taking .75ml of 250mg Cyp/ 5 days.  I only use slin pins while on  trt or cruise.  I do have nolva on hand & have been considering using.  Any suggestions on a dose?
> 
> Test level at the 250/5 days was >1500  Bloods taken on the day pin is due.



The lower the E2 value the less accurate Roche ECLIA method is. 

As for nolva, 20mg a day for the first week or so is ok to raise your blood levels faster but 10mg a day should be fine after that. Just remember though that even if you reverse the gyno, it can and might still come back when you run gear. 

>1500ng/dl and that's at 5days post injection?!?!?!?!?!?! Those levels are too high for TRT. Way too high. It means your peak levels are well above 2000ng/dl. Is this doctor administered or self administered DF? 

It's better to start low and titrate up. I'd personally try 50mg twice a week for 6wks, getting bloods done and seeing if you can avoid the AI entirely. If you become symptomatic at that low dose and TT levels are still below range than bump up the dose about 25mg/wk every 6wks or so and do bloods.


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## DF (Dec 28, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> The lower the E2 value the less accurate Roche ECLIA method is.
> 
> As for nolva, 20mg a day for the first week or so is ok to raise your blood levels faster but 10mg a day should be fine after that. Just remember though that even if you reverse the gyno, it can and might still come back when you run gear.
> 
> ...


.  
I figure whatever method I use that E2 number is too low anyway.  I'm used to the gyno issue at this point.  I know the only way to get it over with is surgery.  This is a cruise dose Doc & of course self administered.  On a trt dose of 100mg/ 5 days I have tested at 1100 with blood taken on the day the pin is due.  

Thanks for the input Doc.  I'm going to start the nolva.  Not sure about splitting my dose to 2x/week.  I find it a PITA to pin even every 5 days.  Infact my pin was due yesterday..... Dammit!


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## Rumpy (Dec 28, 2015)

On my last labs I had been pinning 250mg of test U once a week with 12.5mg of aromasin also once a week.  I'm pretty sure my blood draw was also day of pin, before pinning.  My TT was also over 1500 but my E2 was 15.3  I have since dropped my test to 200mg once a week and aromasin to 10mg/week.  So far all feels good but i have not run labs at this dose yet.

I really strongly prefer aromasin.  It's a suicidal inhibitor so no risk of rebound, you can get away with taking once a week, and for me it's been easier to dial in than adex.


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## Schredder (Dec 28, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Blood pressure is another thing E2 is not responsible for. People get HTN when running compounds that don't even aromatize.
> 
> Example: how does Proviron raise BP while it also is claimed that it's good at shedding water weight?



I want to understand where you are coming from but I am not sure I do.  My statements thus far have been directed at the OPs cycle of Testosterone only, not directed at a cycle that includes Nandrolone, Trenbolone, Anadrol, Proviron, or anything else.

How does E2 not effect blood pressure, when high E2 levels can cause edema which in turn can raise blood pressure?  I realize there are compounds that don't aromatize that can affect BP but that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.  Proviron possibly raising blood pressure even though it doesnt aromatize doesn't equate E2 not being responsible for a spike in BP numbers.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> I want to understand where you are coming from but I am not sure I do.  My statements thus far have been directed at the OPs cycle of Testosterone only, not directed at a cycle that includes Nandrolone, Trenbolone, Anadrol, Proviron, or anything else.



They are examples of how an AI won't prevent gyno. Even with a test only cycle they won't. Look at DF's situation. Gyno issues with an E2 of 7 and only on test. How much more AI should he take to prevent gyno if his E2 is already tanked? 

Dr Scally speaks of many patients getting gyno regardless of AI use as well. He even goes as far as saying it himself multiple times that AI use does not prevent gyno. He also presents this analogy which has also been stated in several studies:

Imagine you're guarding a castle with 100 entry gates. The marauders are E2. Do you prevent the castle from being overrun (gyno from forming) by 1) protecting all of the gates or by 2) protecting none of the gates but killing 50% (say even 90% if you wish) of the marauders (AI use)?

You're saying option 2, that is using an AI. But all it takes is one guy getting past your gate to overrun the castle and thus form gyno in this analogy. 



> How does E2 not effect blood pressure, when high E2 levels can cause edema which in turn can raise blood pressure?  I realize there are compounds that don't aromatize that can affect BP but that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.  Proviron possibly raising blood pressure even though it doesnt aromatize doesn't equate E2 not being responsible for a spike in BP numbers.



Bc your basing your comments off a flawed premise. the other compounds do have everything to do with what we are talking about. You don't think so bc you believe it's the fault of E2 but it's not. It's bc of the androgens. In studies it has been shown that testosterone is what causes this



> .... Testosterone regulates cellular processes, which mediates vascular contraction and hypertrophy, key events contributing to the increased vascular resistance in hypertension. They also observed greater production of reactive oxygen species in response to testosterone in vascular smooth muscle cells from hypertensive as compared with normotensive animals. These effects were not attributed to conversion of testosterone to 17Beta-estradiol, because the aromatase inhibitor anastrazole had no effect on reactive oxygen species formation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> They are examples of how an AI won't prevent gyno. Even with a test only cycle they won't. Look at DF's situation. Gyno issues with an E2 of 7 and only on test. How much more AI should he take to prevent gyno if his E2 is already tanked?
> 
> Dr Scally speaks of many patients getting gyno regardless of AI use as well. He even goes as far as saying it himself multiple times that AI use does not prevent gyno. He also presents this analogy which has also been stated in several studies:
> 
> ...





Bc your basing your comments off a flawed premise. the other compounds do have everything to do with what we are talking about. You don't think so bc you believe it's the fault of E2 but it's not. It's bc of the androgens. In studies it has been shown that testosterone is what causes this



> .... Testosterone regulates cellular processes, which mediates vascular contraction and hypertrophy, key events contributing to the increased vascular resistance in hypertension. They also observed greater production of reactive oxygen species in response to testosterone in vascular smooth muscle cells from hypertensive as compared with normotensive animals. These effects were not attributed to conversion of testosterone to 17Beta-estradiol, because the aromatase inhibitor anastrazole had no effect on reactive oxygen species formation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> So then what would be the point in running an AI in your opinion based on your statements?



To properly manage estradiol. Too high estradiol can kill your libido, cause erectile dysfunction, impact the prostate, play a role in bone density, lead to cardiovascular problems, lead to infertility, etc. 

Estradiol can also act as an androgen receptor antagonist leaving it not able to be bound to testosterone or other compounds. It can increase SHBG and it can lead to down regulation of the androgen receptor.


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> To properly manage estradiol. Too high estradiol can kill your libido, cause erectile dysfunction, impact the prostate, play a role in bone density, lead to cardiovascular problems, lead to infertility, etc.
> 
> Estradiol can also act as an androgen receptor antagonist leaving it not able to be bound to testosterone or other compounds. It can increase SHBG and it can lead to down regulation of the androgen receptor.



Absolutely, and I dont disagree with that, just add water retention and BP to that list, dispite there being other factors that can effects those things 

I was under the impression you didnt think managing Estradiol was an important part of a cycle/TRT.  

Maybe a bit of misunderstanding between you and me.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> Absolutely, and I dont disagree with that, just add water retention and BP to that list, dispite there being other factors that can effects those things
> 
> I was under the impression you didnt think managing Estradiol was an important part of a cycle/TRT.
> 
> Maybe a bit of misunderstanding between you and me.



Oh not at all Schred. I do think it's of high importance. If I came across that way I apologize. 

Regardless of the estradiol/AI topic you presented your case clearly and didn't resort to childish antics so I think RippedZilla made a good choice in referring you here


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Oh not at all Schred. I do think it's of high importance. If I came across that way I apologize.
> 
> Regardless of the estradiol/AI topic you presented your case clearly and didn't resort to childish antics so I think RippedZilla made a good choice in referring you here



I appreciate it Doc, thank you.  And I apologize if I came across at all hostile, which wasn't not my intent at all.  Words without tone sometimes end up misinterpreted


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> I appreciate it Doc, thank you.  And I apologize if I came across at all hostile, which wasn't not my intent at all.  Words without tone sometimes end up misinterpreted



You did not. Didn't cross my mind at all.


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> You did not. Didn't cross my mind at all.



Right on man!  And no need for an apology on your part.


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## Onrek (Dec 29, 2015)

You definitely don't want to wait for symptoms to arise. Get on an AI pronto.

Edit: Srsly bro? Coppin my pic? :\


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

Onrek said:


> You definitely don't want to wait for symptoms to arise. Get on an AI pronto.
> 
> Edit: Srsly bro? Coppin my pic? :\



WHAT?!?!  Lol, I read this I thought 'I didn't write that'.  No copying man, Ive used this pic as my avatars for some time.  Lee is one of my all time favs, so if we agree on NOTHING I think we can agree on that 

We'd better stop posting back to back or people are going to start to trip!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> WHAT?!?!  Lol, I read this I thought 'I didn't write that'.  No copying man, Ive used this pic as my avatars for some time.  Lee is one of my all time favs, so if we agree on NOTHING I think we can agree on that
> 
> We'd better stop posting back to back or people are going to start to trip!



OMG there's 2 of you!


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

Maybe I should switch mine to Levrone, the other best of all time...........


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## ToolSteel (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> Maybe I should switch mine to Levrone, the other best of all time...........



Nah. Go with Genova.


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## gymrat827 (Dec 29, 2015)

DF........Ralox would be my .02.


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## DF (Dec 29, 2015)

gymrat827 said:


> DF........Ralox would be my .02.



I have Nolva on hand, but will look up the ralox.


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DF said:


> I have Nolva on hand, but will look up the ralox.



Has gyno actually formed DF? Actual lumps behind the nipple, and if so how big are the lumps?


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## DF (Dec 29, 2015)

Schredder said:


> Has gyno actually formed DF? Actual lumps behind the nipple, and if so how big are the lumps?



Yup,  lumps,  swelling and painful to the touch.  One lump is pea sized.  The other is semicircular.  About the size of half a dime.


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## gymrat827 (Dec 29, 2015)

DF said:


> Yup,  lumps,  swelling and painful to the touch.  One lump is pea sized.  The other is semicircular.  About the size of half a dime.



Mine are teen ween lil ****ers.  Like pea sized, just 12.5 e3/4d stane keeps me gtg.  

U may need the stane plus the serm.  


When's the last time u did a Serm blast on those lil sobs.  ???


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 29, 2015)

DF said:


> Yup,  lumps,  swelling and painful to the touch.  One lump is pea sized.  The other is semicircular.  About the size of half a dime.



You might just need surgery if the nolva doesn't work.


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## Schredder (Dec 29, 2015)

DF said:


> Yup,  lumps,  swelling and painful to the touch.  One lump is pea sized.  The other is semicircular.  About the size of half a dime.



I actually had a small pea size lump form while running Dbol and was successful in getting rid of it completely by running Nolvadex @ 40mgED for one month.  It never came back.  Raloxifene is supposed to work also except I have no experience with that so I cant comment on that. 

If this is an ongoing issue for you Id run a low dose of a SERM with your current protocol once, and if, the gyno issue is resolved.  Something like Doc layed out in post #18.

Aside from that, surgery might be an option if its affordable and/or covered by insurane.  Get the tissue AND the gland removed and never deal with it again.  If its that big an issue and youre on TRT for life it might be something to look into.


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## gymrat827 (Dec 29, 2015)

DieYoungStrong said:


> You might just need surgery if the nolva doesn't work.



it comes back 40% of the time.  

If i had to pay, i wouldnt go under knife.


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