# How hard should i train a muscle group - until i get how sore?



## sfstud33 (Sep 10, 2013)

How hard should i train  a muscle group?

In particular, until it hurts how much. A little, a lot, or i cant move.

Im wanting to balance between doing not enough - which i suspect is where im at right now, to doing too much and then undoing all my effort.

So if for example im doing say arms - should i be a little sore next day, really sore, or i need to wear a sling...

Thx
Sf...


----------



## mistah187 (Sep 10, 2013)

Training til failure has resulted in the best results for me. When It's hurting That's when It's actually working.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Sep 10, 2013)

Who said this? Stimulate, don't annihilate.


----------



## sfstud33 (Sep 10, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Who said this? Stimulate, don't annihilate.



So if i prod the muscle the next day and it feels a little sore is that about right? 

Im trying to make sure i dont under or overdo it.


----------



## Rage Strength (Sep 10, 2013)

As POB said, just enough to stimulate the muscle... This is different for everyone. Try maybe 3-4 sets with 3 exercises per muscle group and start from there. Bigger muscle groups such as back and legs may need a little more than that.


----------



## goesto11 (Sep 10, 2013)

What are your goals stud?


> until it hurts how much. A little, a lot, or i cant move.


This sounds like a terrible way to gauge your training effort. Certainly you can exhaust a muscle to the point where it's difficult to move, but training for pain? I predict your next thread will be titled "why I need physical therapy". Why not keep it simple with tried and true set/rep schemes and focus on moving x amount of weight for x amount of reps in perfect form? If you're continually moving more weight then you're doing it right.


> Im trying to make sure i dont under or overdo it.


Don't put so much pressure on yourself dude.


----------



## italian1 (Sep 10, 2013)

I think it depends on how often you train.  For me right now its 6 days a week.  I have a hard time getting sore anymore.  I switch it up all the time, and once in a while will a tiny bit sore. But not often.   But every single day that I go to the gym I lift for absolutly all that I'm worth.  I lift until I can barely make it out the door and into my car.  Next day no soreness, so I do it again.  I think if you lift 2-3 days a week your gonna get sore more often.  Some say this is better, but my extreme lifting schedule now has me in the best shape I've ever been in so I'll continue.


----------



## creekrat (Sep 10, 2013)

mistah187 said:


> Training til failure has resulted in the best results for me. When It's hurting That's when It's actually working.



Form failure is the key.  Once you loose proper form, that is when you will get hurt.  Also remember that you need rest


----------



## transcend2007 (Sep 10, 2013)

I believe consistency is the key.  You can not miss workouts (like none).

Determine your goal ! bodybuilding or power lifting.  Create a work out split in line with your objective. There are many killer splits right here on SI.

Then increase your intensity in each work out.  I once read from one of the Pro BB's that he had only worked out a few hours in his life.  By that he meant in the thousands of hours of training he only really counted the few reps per workout that were actually failure reps where his progress was actually made.  Everything else was just prep....but those few reps is where all his progress was made.


----------



## sfstud33 (Sep 10, 2013)

goesto11 said:


> What are your goals stud?
> 
> This sounds like a terrible way to gauge your training effort. Certainly you can exhaust a muscle to the point where it's difficult to move, but training for pain? I predict your next thread will be titled "why I need physical therapy". Why not keep it simple with tried and true set/rep schemes and focus on moving x amount of weight for x amount of reps in perfect form? If you're continually moving more weight then you're doing it right.
> 
> Don't put so much pressure on yourself dude.



Ha, im the most low pressure dude around - thats why i was a little concerned that i might be underdoing it. 

My goal is to put on size. I dont care about the size of the weights - just about getting bigger. Im at 194lbs in the morning and 199lbs at bedtime. Im 5'10, and fairly slim. I think i carry all my muscle weight in my legs which is rather disappointing - but i am working now on the tri's so that i can make progress also on chest. 

Right now i work out until failure - then on some exercises like chest i might do an extra set at a much lighter weight at the end just to make sure im good. Usually i can feel yesterday's workout as just a very light soreness - but hey, im 45 - so age might have something to do with that   Its the sort of soreness that tells me exercising the same body part today would not get a good result - but still allows me to move around without needing a wheelchair!

I wanted to make sure that would be sufficient to generate growth. Its not easy for me to pack on the weight - i eat thanks to spongy's diet (may be 90% on point), and i train 6-7 days a week - but because i train so many days i take it easy and spread the load out. So i want to make sure im not being too slack, but i dont want to go the other way either.  

Also three of those days are HIIT such as today which was four sets of squats at 145x20 - skipping for 200, 25 push ups on the stability ball using smith machine, 25 horizontal pullups on stability ball using smith machine, skipping for 200 and then repeat x 4 times. Sometimes i worry that the HIIT training does not get the muscle groups suitably stressed for growth. Hence my query about how sore i should be. Other times i wonder if the HIIT training is pre stressing the muscle so that on chest or back days i dont get the best workout possible.


----------



## goesto11 (Sep 10, 2013)

> I dont care about the size of the weights - just about getting bigger.


Have you read Cashout's routines? It's kinda similar to Bill Phillips' program of pyramiding to more weight/intensity and then going until momentary muscle failure.


----------



## BeastMaster (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm a firm believer training is individualized. Meaning a certain type of way I train may not benefit you. I've seen people that use the stimulate method and grow like weeds and other thy kill it and have great success. I myself am noticing there are certain muscle groups that are responding to the stimulate method and some I can't get away with it. For example, was killing biceps and triceps and they weren't growing t a rate that I thought they should be so I switched to a more mind/muscle connection. Stimulate them with lighter weights very controlled movements and plenty of supersets and having great results. Now shoulders, couldn't get any results by just stimulating them.. It's sounds crazy but its something I learned over the years. But like I said what I eat doesn't make you shit, so experiment with different methods and find out what you respond to


----------



## TheLupinator (Sep 12, 2013)

If you're goal is size then you should be going to failure with proper form on at least 1 set per muscle group... you should feel some pain on that set.. make sure you rest enough


----------



## katelly (Sep 12, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> If you're goal is size then you should be going to failure with proper form on at least 1 set per muscle group... you should feel some pain on that set.. make sure you rest enough



I agree last set is till complete failure on each separate lift. Proper form is key light weight massive reps. Point is to get as much blood in that group as possible, not destroy your body


----------



## PFM (Sep 13, 2013)

Let us not confuse The Burn with Muscle Soreness. The Burn would be during last few reps into failure, Muscle Soreness comes the next day or two after inducing trauma to a specific targeted group or isolated muscle.

Achieving The Burn is quite easy whereas most of you guys know getting sore may only come after taking a break. The theories and practices to induce enough trauma to signal growth varies. My experience supports just enough, less is more: meaning a over trained muscle requires too much energy to grow while simply trying to survive.

Add sets, drop sets, forced reps, volume training, rest pause, partials and list goes on. Rome wasn't built in a day, pick a movement for each muscle group and "kill" one set works for me.


----------



## SFGiants (Sep 13, 2013)

sfstud33 said:


> Also three of those days are HIIT such as today which was four sets of squats at 145x20 - skipping for 200, 25 push ups on the stability ball using smith machine, 25 horizontal pullups on stability ball using smith machine, skipping for 200 and then repeat x 4 times. Sometimes i worry that the HIIT training does not get the muscle groups suitably stressed for growth. Hence my query about how sore i should be. Other times i wonder if the HIIT training is pre stressing the muscle so that on chest or back days i dont get the best workout possible.



This sounds like a person trying real hard to cut weight not gain mass.


----------



## sfstud33 (Sep 13, 2013)

SFGiants said:


> This sounds like a person trying real hard to cut weight not gain mass.



Mmm - good observation. Maybe time to rethink things. I dont need to lose any weight - thats going in the wrong direction!


----------



## Jada (Sep 13, 2013)

creekrat said:


> Form failure is the key.  Once you loose proper form, that is when you will get hurt.  Also remember that you need rest



This right here


----------

