# thoughts please guys.



## mrgeeky (Feb 20, 2014)

I been training in weights for years.. Just playing, ignoring diet etc.. Now Im fat and need to go through a cutting phase to lose all this fat.. 
Im currently on 2400 calories per day.. 
But I have just been given 6 bottles of sustanon 250

Considering Im nearly 30kg over weight, Im going to be in the cutting phase for quite some time..  But I keep looking at these bottles of sustanon and think about doing a cycle...  I presume there is just not much point in taking roids while trying to lose weight?? 

I guess what I'm asking will the roids help me any while Im trying to lose weight? 

Any thoughts guys..


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## Joliver (Feb 20, 2014)

Welcome to UG.

My opinion would be that you should lose as much weight as possible without taking the sustanon 250.  Test aromatizes into estrogen that can cause fat deposition increase water retention.  That said, there are reasons to take steroids while dieting--the main reason is to preserve muscle.  If you feel like over your years of "playing" you have laid down a foundation worth preserving, you may want to try the sus.  

Remember, running an AAS like sustanon (which is a testosterone blend) you will need AIs, SERMs, and plan out your PCT.  If you aren't certain what I just wrote, you probably shouldn't do the cycle.  

The AAS are not going to miraculously drop the weight for you.  Even "cutting agents" tend to disappoint users when a cycle is begun with an abnormally high body fat percentage.  

I am not going to give you diet advice....because I am fat, and stupid.  

P.s. You should introduce me to your friends....


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## mrgeeky (Feb 20, 2014)

No need for PCT.. Im on TRT..  

AI's? Does every body run aromatase inhibitors during a cycle.. I thought that was only used for people going through pct??

And yep, built enough of a foundation that I don't want to lose.. Not big, but got enough muscle that I want to keep lol.. 
But then I don't really thnk Im going to lose too much muscle while losing fat..  I cant really see that as a concern unless I go too low with calories.. 

I cant help but think that there is a way to gain muscle while losing fat by getting the calorie intake just right.. Perhaps bumping up cardio to help burn fat...  Hmmm...


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## shenky (Feb 20, 2014)

if you have a decent foundation, cutting shouldn't be _too_ difficult. Mind you, it's a pain in the ass and I don't enjoy it, but it's very doable, especially with a muscular foundation. I think a 400-600mg cycle of test would do you wonders on a bulking cycle. I might be alone on this one, but I think cutting is easier  _after_ bulking, as you have more muscle and therefore a faster metabolism. Also, you are guaranteed to put on some fat on a bulk anyway. I guess what I'm saying is it's my opinion that you should wait until you're at a comfortable weight to bulk with the drugs.


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## mrgeeky (Feb 20, 2014)

yes but Im nearly 30k over weight? Im guessing that's called obese or at the least bordering on it so I think fat loss is a must first..
The part I find frustrating is I was getting good gains in my lifts and I know that's going to come to a stop once I this low cal diet kicks in..  That's the part I hate most.. 
perhaps I need to knock off 20kg, then I could look at bulking.. 

That kind of makes more sense than anything I guess..


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 20, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> yes but Im nearly 30k over weight? Im guessing that's called obese or at the least bordering on it so I think fat loss is a must first..
> The part I find frustrating is I was getting good gains in my lifts and I know that's going to come to a stop once I this low cal diet kicks in..  That's the part I hate most..
> perhaps I need to knock off 20kg, then I could look at bulking..
> 
> That kind of makes more sense than anything I guess..



If you're looking to drop the weight off quickly and have the mental fortitude to stick with it, look into a PSMF type diet. Lyle McDonald has an excellent book and write up on the topic and you can average 1kg of weight loss per week. During that time your lifts will go to shit, energy will be in the dumps, you'll want to cave and quit the diet but in terms of speed of fat loss nothing beats it besides surgery. This diet isn't for everyone though. 

The other option is diet down using a more conservative calorie deficit which will take more time but the trade off on the mental aspect cannot be overstated. It's much easier to adhere to. If you're on TRT you already have an advantage assuming your protocol leaves you at the higher end of the reference range. 

As Jokiver pointed out, all other things equal, an increase in Estrogen will pre-disposition you to gaining more fat. This is a non issue if you use an AI and manage estradiol or if you're in a calorie deficit like during a cutting cycle. AIs by the way are not used in PCT. They're purpose is to manage estradiol levels while on exogenous hormones during the cycle. Many TRT patients get away without using them bc of the relatively lower doses but during a blast, chances are more than likely you'd need one whether worrying about fat or not...elevated E2 has many health risks associated with it. 

As to your ideas on gaining muscle mass while losing bodyfat: it is possible in some instances. For example, a beginner new to weight training will experience and increase in LBM while decreasing his fat mass. These are beginner gains though and go away relatively quickly. Another example is during a recomp diet but this isn't necessarily a situation where you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. You are really just creating much smaller cut and bulk cycles and running more of them during the same time. Calorie cycling is a classic example of this. The benefit is you avoided getting excessively fat but the downside is it takes a much longer time to make the same progress as a bulk followed by a cut. 

To lose fat you need to be in a calorie deficit. Cardio in and of itself will burn fat as a fuel source but if you are eating above your maintenance levels in calories then your NET FAT STORAGE will still go up bc of the diet. To build muscle you need an excess of calories as building muscle is a very calorie expensive process. Simply adding cardio will not do a thing besides increase your energy expenditure.


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## mrgeeky (Feb 20, 2014)

thank you Doc and a brilliant post, and very much appreciated.. advice noted and I will take heed of it.. Im dropping 1kg pw on my current 2400 calorie diet..  When I get to the stage I cant handle it, I'll start adding calories to a more tolerable but  still calorie deficit diet..
Once down to a more reasonable weight I'll look at bulking again.. And I'll leave the roids aside until then.. 

cheers for the advice guys.. Much appreciated.


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## shenky (Feb 20, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> thank you Doc and a brilliant post, and very much appreciated.. advice noted and I will take heed of it.. Im dropping 1kg pw on my current 2400 calorie diet..  When I get to the stage I cant handle it, I'll start adding calories to a more tolerable but  still calorie deficit diet..
> Once down to a more reasonable weight I'll look at bulking again.. And I'll leave the roids aside until then..
> 
> cheers for the advice guys.. Much appreciated.



Probably a good idea. When I need to lose weight, I eat a lot of leafy greens, carrots and green beans to keep me feeling satisfied on a defecit


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## jyoung8j (Feb 20, 2014)

Get a strict diet and if u stick to it for 6mths u should b ready if u stick to a strict diet..


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## AlphaM (Feb 20, 2014)

In the mean time you could pass that sust on to someone else....like ME LOL    Good luck on the weight loss tho stick with it!


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## mrgeeky (Feb 21, 2014)

what do you guys reckon?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/build-muscle-burn-fat-simultaneously.htm


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## Iron1 (Feb 21, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> what do you guys reckon?
> 
> http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/build-muscle-burn-fat-simultaneously.htm



That article is a really long winded way to describe calorie manipulation.
Reading that article:
Protein remains fairly consistent.
Fats remain fairly consistent
Carbs are where the calories get manipulated.

That article also attempts to induce ketosis where your body starts using fat for  energy but using the outlines written, your body would barely touch ketosis by the time you started re-introducing carbs.

That article is basically describing a body-recomposition diet through carb manipulation.
Body recomp IS possible but it's also painfully slow and the margin for error is huge compared to a traditional caloric deficit.


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## mrgeeky (Feb 21, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> That article is a really long winded way to describe calorie manipulation.
> Reading that article:
> Protein remains fairly consistent.
> Fats remain fairly consistent
> ...



Ketosis? so if I were to start living on mainly fat and protein my body would start to burn more fat? Hmm, perhaps I need to google this ketosis?  Off for a google..


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## Iron1 (Feb 21, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> Ketosis? so if I were to start living on mainly fat and protein my body would start to burn more fat? Hmm, perhaps I need to google this ketosis?  Off for a google..



Pretty much. It's the basis for the Atkins diet and other similar carb restricted weight loss diets.
The short story is that your body uses carbs for energy and fat as an energy reserve for survival scenarios.
If you eliminate carbs from your diet or drop down to very, very low levels your body starts to fuel itself with it's stored reserves, fat.
This is assuming that your total caloric intake is still less than your expenditure. 
It's worth noting that even if you're eating only protein and fat, it's still possible to put on weight if you're eating too much of it.

imo, ketosis is hard to maintain since your diet options are limited, you also develop this nasty ammonia stink that people around you don't really care for. Your mouth also tends to start tasting metallic, like you're sucking on a penny or something. I've done it for a while and felt like absolute dog-sh*t while doing it. Others have had much better luck.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 21, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> Ketosis? so if I were to start living on mainly fat and protein my body would start to burn more fat? Hmm, perhaps I need to google this ketosis?  Off for a google..



It would start burning more fat yes but that's only one side of the equation. Other than extreme circumstances, and ketosis isn't one of them, all dietary fat your at will be stored as fat. Your fat intake has nothing to do with it's oxidation. As Ron mentioned it's about energy balance. If you eat more fat like during keto you burn more fat but you also store more of it since your fat intake will go up considerably. Whether you lose fat and drop down in body fat % is dependent on whether you're eating in a calorie deficit or surplus. The net balance of fat whether positive or negative depends on your calorie consumption and your energy expenditure. With non-keto diets where much of the fat is replaced by carbs you store less fat (bc you eat less of it) but you also don't burn or oxidize as much of it because the carbs you're eating would be a direct source of glucose for energy. Again it's calorie balance that determines weight/fat loss or gain.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 21, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> Pretty much. It's the basis for the Atkins diet and other similar carb restricted weight loss diets.
> The short story is that your body uses carbs for energy and fat as an energy reserve for survival scenarios.
> If you eliminate carbs from your diet or drop down to very, very low levels your body starts to fuel itself with it's stored reserves, fat.
> This is assuming that your total caloric intake is still less than your expenditure.
> ...




Whatever you do, do not say this in front of Taubes or the Atkins crowd. They will crucify you a heretic and tell you you're a sellout


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## mrgeeky (Feb 22, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> It would start burning more fat yes but that's only one side of the equation. Other than extreme circumstances, and ketosis isn't one of them, all dietary fat your at will be stored as fat. Your fat intake has nothing to do with it's oxidation. As Ron mentioned it's about energy balance. If you eat more fat like during keto you burn more fat but you also store more of it since your fat intake will go up considerably. Whether you lose fat and drop down in body fat % is dependent on whether you're eating in a calorie deficit or surplus. The net balance of fat whether positive or negative depends on your calorie consumption and your energy expenditure. With non-keto diets where much of the fat is replaced by carbs you store less fat (bc you eat less of it) but you also don't burn or oxidize as much of it because the carbs you're eating would be a direct source of glucose for energy. Again it's calorie balance that determines weight/fat loss or gain.



All gets quite confusing but if I understand you guys right, regardless of all else it simply comes down to calorie deficit!


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## mrgeeky (Feb 22, 2014)

I wonder if eating a lot more protein in your diet, ie: 60% protein, 25% fat and 15% carbs would help keep muscle or possibly help promote some muscle growth while on calorie deficit as opposed to my current 35% protein, 35% carbs, and 30% fat.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 22, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> All gets quite confusing but if I understand you guys right, regardless of all else it simply comes down to calorie deficit!



For WEIGHT loss yes. For fat loss it becomes calorie deficit and macro needs.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 22, 2014)

mrgeeky said:


> I wonder if eating a lot more protein in your diet, ie: 60% protein, 25% fat and 15% carbs would help keep muscle or possibly help promote some muscle growth while on calorie deficit as opposed to my current 35% protein, 35% carbs, and 30% fat.



With that high a protein intake as a percentage of total calories and your other macros, I'd be worried about gluconeogenesis where the liver turns protein into glucose to be used as an Ernst source instead of being stored in skeletal muscle. Muscle growth requires EXCESS calories. Muscle is metabolically expensive tissue. It takes energy to create it. Trying to build muscle while in an energy deficit is going to spin your wheels. You only need so much protein to preserve lbm on a cut and without knowing your stats and goals all I can tell you is that off of a typical cutting intake of around 2800cals, 60% of that would be over 400g of PRO. if you can actually eat that much congratulations bc protein has the highest satiety lol but 400g is almost positively overkill for you.


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## mrgeeky (Feb 22, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> With that high a protein intake as a percentage of total calories and your other macros, I'd be worried about gluconeogenesis where the liver turns protein into glucose to be used as an Ernst source instead of being stored in skeletal muscle. Muscle growth requires EXCESS calories. Muscle is metabolically expensive tissue. It takes energy to create it. Trying to build muscle while in an energy deficit is going to spin your wheels. You only need so much protein to preserve lbm on a cut and without knowing your stats and goals all I can tell you is that off of a typical cutting intake of around 2800cals, 60% of that would be over 400g of PRO. if you can actually eat that much congratulations bc protein has the highest satiety lol but 400g is almost positively overkill for you.



Im carrying some muscle, and weigh in at 115kg. Stand 180cm or just under 6ft. 
Probably would b

To be honest, I struggle at getting my required Protien as it is.. I now eat about 200grms per day because I just cant force myself to eat anymore.. So point taken.. No way I would eat 400g anyway lol

Ok, time to stop the what if's and stick to the true and tried.. 

cheers everyone...


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