# Sore or not?



## snake (Jun 19, 2014)

Maybe I’m a bit old school but I judge the quality of my workouts not only by the reps and weights but if I am sore the next day. In talks with others, it was said that being sore is no indication of muscle breakdown/growth. All I can say is that when I have a bear of a workout, I get sore. It never happens when I spend a Sunday on the couch watching the Eagles lose. I do notice that smaller muscle groups tend to be harder to get sore. Although I never gauge someone’s knowledge on their arm size, the information seems to mostly come from the cross-fit guys.

Does anyone have or know of any scientific studies on this topic? I’d even settle for some Bro-science if the consensus is the same across the board. Thanks for any input!


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## jennerrator (Jun 19, 2014)

well, the only reason I don't agree with this is because gear helps so much in recovery ....just can't gauge it...cuz I know my training is heavy and hard


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## DreamChaser (Jun 19, 2014)

I some what tend to agree but I'm pretty sure the science behind it doesn't just because it's not sore the next day doesn't mean it's not going to grow


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## LostTime (Jun 19, 2014)

When I'm on-cycle, I don't get sore.  I might get a little tightness if I hit something from a new angle or tried a new exercise, but not the old "soreness" that I used to get.  When I'm off-cycle, the soreness comes right back from good workouts.  So there is definitely a correlation between sore and growth for me when off.  When on, none.  Better performance thru medicine!!


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## f.r.a.n.k. (Jun 19, 2014)

When I start to not get sore after my workouts I just change up the routine. My routine is always changing and the only day nothing is sore is maybe sunday
And I'm on cycle


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## FreeBirdSam (Jun 19, 2014)

I still get sore, but only after my ME workouts


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## snake (Jun 19, 2014)

Jenner said:


> well, the only reason I don't agree with this is because gear helps so much in recovery ....just can't gauge it...cuz I know my training is heavy and hard



Jenner & LostTime,

Follow me on this; If AAS helps you recover quicker, which most agree, wouldn't that just reduce the time you are sore? You would have done the same amount of micro-damage, just have a quicker recovery?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jun 19, 2014)

Some of my best workouts have not produced soreness while some of my worst workouts have. IMO soreness or DOMS alone is not an accurate indicator of a good workout, whether on cycle or off, but when combined with other observations it can be telling.


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## snake (Jun 19, 2014)

Thanks Doc, good to have you back!


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## jennerrator (Jun 19, 2014)

snake said:


> Jenner & LostTime,
> 
> Follow me on this; If AAS helps you recover quicker, which most agree, wouldn't that just reduce the time you are sore? You would have done the same amount of micro-damage, just have a quicker recovery?



No, lol because it can in fact keep you from getting sore at all


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 19, 2014)

FreeBirdSam said:


> I still get sore, but only after my ME workouts



Total opposite for me. ME leaves me not wanting to get out of bed. DE leaves me crippled


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## LostTime (Jun 19, 2014)

snake said:


> Jenner & LostTime,
> 
> Follow me on this; If AAS helps you recover quicker, which most agree, wouldn't that just reduce the time you are sore? You would have done the same amount of micro-damage, just have a quicker recovery?



Since the science here is lacking, this is strictly anecdotal and conjecture.  I attribute it to the extra water retention in the various tissues.   I have two bad rotator cuffs that are miserable to live with when I'm off.  Sleeping can even be an issue at times.  But when I'm on, they are good as new.  It seems to be the same with regards to muscle soreness.  Whether you attribute the soreness to lactic acid or microscopic tears is up to you.  But I have issues with none of it when my body is retaining that extra fluid.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jun 19, 2014)

snake said:


> Thanks Doc, good to have you back!



Thank you Snake. Bottom line, lift hard, eat right, sleep right and you'll achieve your goals


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## Tren4Life (Jun 19, 2014)

I still get sore with gear. But HGH that's a different story. A couple ius of seros and I sleep like a baby and never get sore.


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## JAXNY (Jun 19, 2014)

I contribute soreness to micro tears. The heavier you lift the more you tear, the more you tear the more sore you'll be. Resulting in more growth. A good work out is when you're sore the next day.  Which means micro tears which equals growth. AAS allows you to recover quicker allowing you to hit that muscle group sooner allowing you to grow faster. 
So as the saying goes, if you're not sore, You didn't do shit. Meaning you didn't gain much.


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## JAXNY (Jun 19, 2014)

Good to see you back Doc.


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## jennerrator (Jun 19, 2014)

LOL, this just shows once again...it's different for everyone


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## jennerrator (Jun 19, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I contribute soreness to micro tears. The heavier you lift the more you tear, the more you tear the more sore you'll be. Resulting in more growth. A good work out is when you're sore the next day.  Which means micro tears which equals growth. AAS allows you to recover quicker allowing you to hit that muscle group sooner allowing you to grow faster.
> *So as the saying goes, if you're not sore, You didn't do shit. Meaning you didn't gain much*.



love you, but totally disagree with bolded statement


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## JAXNY (Jun 19, 2014)

I knew that was going to come off wrong. It doesn't actually mean you didn't do shit Jenner. Its just a saying in body building that means you didn't train hard enough maximum growth.  
It doesn't apply to many different types of training but I think that that is what snake was referring to about soreness.


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## FreeBirdSam (Jun 19, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Total opposite for me. ME leaves me not wanting to get out of bed. DE leaves me crippled



I've heard this same thing from several different people I lift with occasionally..   I guess it all depends on body type..  when I tried doing higher rep ranges for a while I didn't grow.. but I was sore for a day..  showed a lot of morning signs of overtraining also..   when I raised my sets and lowered my rep range I would begin to be sore two days from said workout.. and continue to be sore for 3-4 days.. (unless im on tren then I don't really ever get sore lol)

I haven't studied this in depth, and you probably know more than me about the subject..  but it would seem like some people build up lactic acid differently than others..  I am kind of intrigued by this subject and when I get the time I'm gonna do some studying on it..   doesn't quite make sense to me


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## DF (Jun 19, 2014)

Gotta say I'm old school with this & on board with snake & Jax on this.  There has never been a time where I've had a good workout & not been sore.  When I hit large muscle groups I'm sore for 2-3 days.  I'm not sure that more soreness = more growth, but I do like to feel soreness.  If anything the soreness gives me satisfaction & a psychological boost.

I will say I'm shocked that Doc has not thrown up a study here.


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## f.r.a.n.k. (Jun 19, 2014)

From experience with my first cycle I'm just sore for a shorter period of time. Still sore as **** the next day on major groups. But not for long.

Branch Warren said, "nahhah I get sore as ****" to the question, "since you're on all this stuff, do you not get sore since you recover so quickly? "

I think that answers the question...Although his training methods are insane LOL!


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## f.r.a.n.k. (Jun 19, 2014)

Also we all know our dear friend Joli....
With a raw total most can only wish for...He has told me how crippling his workouts can be and that's on HGH, EQ, Deca, Test. And we all know how much Test he runs...preaching it "more test = better"


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## snake (Jun 19, 2014)

FBS,
PM me if you run into any good information or post back up here.Maybe Doc will also come up with somethimg
JAXKY,
I know where you are coming from. :-D


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## jennerrator (Jun 19, 2014)

well hell...guess my muscles just appeared as I don't seem to be training hard enough


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## stonetag (Jun 19, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I contribute soreness to micro tears. The heavier you lift the more you tear, the more you tear the more sore you'll be. Resulting in more growth. A good work out is when you're sore the next day.  Which means micro tears which equals growth. AAS allows you to recover quicker allowing you to hit that muscle group sooner allowing you to grow faster.
> So as the saying goes, if you're not sore, You didn't do shit. Meaning you didn't gain much.


I have always believed in this "theory" myself, but I'm an old school thinker. The soreerer I am, the better I feel about my workout.


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## ECKSRATED (Jun 19, 2014)

I like the feeling of being sore after a workout. Makes me feel like i worked hard enough. I also think higher reps cause more soreness because the break down of fast twitch fibers. That's in my experience.


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## snake (Jun 20, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> I like the feeling of being sore after a workout. Makes me feel like i worked hard enough. I also think higher reps cause more soreness because the break down of fast twitch fibers. That's in my experience.



I'm the other way around big E. I've been doing a leg extension/ squat routine with 15 reps and really don't feel much other then some stiffness the next day. Before with the heavy squats of 5-6 reps I couldn't move the next day and if I could, I was in trouble on the second day!


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## ECKSRATED (Jun 20, 2014)

snake said:


> I'm the other way around big E. I've been doing a leg extension/ squat routine with 15 reps and really don't feel much other then some stiffness the next day. Before with the heavy squats of 5-6 reps I couldn't move the next day and if I could, I was in trouble on the second day!


The thing that used to make me the most sore was drop sets!!! I used to do a drop set after every exercise back in the days. Kinda miss em.


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## Dtownry (Jun 20, 2014)

Never am I not sore or have aches somewhere when training.  Waving DE percentages and always going for a training max on ME day gives you no rest.  Something always hurts.  That is PLing.  I love it.


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## stonetag (Jun 20, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> The thing that used to make me the most sore was drop sets!!! I used to do a drop set after every exercise back in the days. Kinda miss em.



Used to do drop sets for each muscle group, and even superset drop sets, I 'm not sure sore is the right word for how I felt the next day. Like you say bro "kinda miss em". I'm old and feeble now, probably break a hip!  lol


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## JAXNY (Jun 20, 2014)

DF said:


> Gotta say I'm old school with this & on board with snake & Jax on this.  There has never been a time where I've had a good workout & not been sore.  When I hit large muscle groups I'm sore for 2-3 days.  I'm not sure that more soreness = more growth, but I do like to feel soreness.  If anything the soreness gives me satisfaction & a psychological boost.
> 
> I will say I'm shocked that Doc has not thrown up a study here.


Doc is still writing out the thesis on it DF. Give him time. Lol.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jun 20, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> Doc is still writing out the thesis on it DF. Give him time. Lol.



I'm gonna make it a PhD paper


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jun 20, 2014)

If you're talking about DOMS specifically then I still think it's not a good indicator of a good workout when isolated. The cause of DOMS has t been isolated yet but there's a lot of evidence suggesting it's simply caused by the eccentric portion of a lift. This jives with personal experience. I've been doing a lot of prowler or push sled work lately which has no eccentric portion and i don't get any soreness from that yet I still have an amazing workout with it lol. You may also get DOMS from dis-adaptation. For instance I squat 3x a week currently. I took a few days off several weeks ago to let my sprained intercostal heal and when I went back to squats I got pretty bad soreness. After a week I adapted to the stress and get no soreness whatsoever but my squat has still gone up, anaerobic endurance has gone up, etc. I'm not saying DOMS is worthless, just trying to say that DOMS alone isn't a good gauge to go by. My $.02 

Now about that thesis....


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## Yaya (Jun 20, 2014)

Sometimes I get sore, sometimes I don't

Usually when I get sore Im pumped for a couple of days after..esp with chest


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## Rumpy (Jun 20, 2014)

I guess I'm old school like Snake.  There's good sore and bad sore, but a great heavy workout will have me good sore for 2 days even on gear.  If I'm not sore the next day I feel like I didn't try hard enough. 

Bad sore is a whole other thing.


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## motley482 (Jun 20, 2014)

Well when im on cycle I tend to obc up my weight a little each week as well as mix up my training...in this case I am usually always sore so I guess its different for everyone im sure age, on or off cycle and type of training all factor in


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## Bro Bundy (Jun 20, 2014)

on dbol deca test my recovery was crazy fast and i just didnt get sore...or atleast i couldnt feel it..off gear i get sore as fuk


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## Cyborg (Jun 21, 2014)

I still get sore, but the difference is that the recovery time is cut in half or better with gear.


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## nightster (Jun 21, 2014)

Im purely guessing but, could some soreness be attributed to hydration, or circulation?    Like flushing the lactic acid through better?????


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## bvs (Jun 21, 2014)

i agree i love to feel a bit of soreness the next day but i have no idea if its actually beneficial


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## kindanewtothis (Jun 22, 2014)

Scientifically, DOMS (Delayed onset Muscle Soreness), is caused by eccentric contraction damage, resulting from microtrauma to the muscle fibers. The leading theory is that after you exercise and cause this microtrauma, calcium is forced into the damaged muscle from the sacroplasmic reticulum. This slows down the process of cellular respiration and calcium isn't transported back into the sacroplasmic reticiulum as fast because of inhibited ATP.

The key here is the eccentric contraction damage ('Soreness'), which studies have shown can be reduced by increased blood flow into the muscle tissue, by maintaining an elevated heart rate between sets. See the research article below, it demonstrated that compared to groups that rested between sets, test subjects with elevated heart rates between sets experienced significantly less muscle soreness (DOMS). Also, DOMs is very individualistic, as many  trained athletes and bodybuilders adapt very well to the increased stress placed on their body and report decreased soreness with time, while still progressing in intensity and size/strength.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296978


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## kindanewtothis (Jun 22, 2014)

Scientifically, DOMS (Delayed onset Muscle Soreness), is caused by eccentric contraction damage, resulting from microtrauma to the muscle fibers. The leading theory is that after you exercise and cause this microtrauma, calcium is forced into the damaged muscle from the sacroplasmic reticulum. This slows down the process of cellular respiration and calcium isn't transported back into the sacroplasmic reticiulum as fast because of inhibited ATP. The increase of calcium in the damaged muscle causes proteases  phospholipases  to react and degenerate muscle protein, resulting in inflammatio/pain/tenderness because of an increase of histamines and potassium.

The key here is the eccentric contraction damage ('Soreness'), which studies have shown can be reduced by increased blood flow into the muscle tissue, by maintaining an elevated heart rate between sets. See the research article below, it demonstrated that compared to groups that rested between sets, test subjects with elevated heart rates between sets experienced significantly less muscle soreness (DOMS). Also, DOMs is very individualistic, as many trained athletes and bodybuilders adapt very well to the increased stress placed on their body and report decreased soreness with time, while still progressing in intensity and size/strength.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296978

To answer your question, soreness does not equal growth or a 'good workout', but it can be a sign that a workout may have been effective and there is a potential for growth.


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## snake (Jun 24, 2014)

kindanewtothis,

Well now, this is what you have to offer in only 18 posts here? I can see it's going to be nice having you around!


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## snake (Jun 24, 2014)

*Conclusion*

I guess in conclusion, we have different schools of thought. Normally anything Doc says is good enough for me but it was intriguing reading kindanewtothis link. In general, I did find the older camp putting more emphasis on getting sore then the younger pups. Let’s face it both schools of thought have some big guys/gals so maybe it doesn't matter all that much.

Something else came to mind while we were debating this sore or not subject. I’m the father of some young men and I don’t hear them complaining about being sore all the time. That doesn't mean they are not growing so I am rethinking my ideas. On the other hand, my calves are sore from the other day, and that does make me happy!


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## kindanewtothis (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks, I'm studying biochem/cell bio in college and really find this kind of stuff interesting. I'm glad you enjoyed the research article as much as I did. In fact, this study further validates what some older guys from the 1970s have told us from their own experience. I will quote and give you the link to this article I read a while back.

"In The Past, If You Weren't Sore After A Workout You Hadn't Trained Hard Enough.
It became a vicious cycle that the more you trained, the leaner you became but the fat still covered the muscle. What was actually happening was that we were burning up muscle instead of fat and the muscles were retracting in atrophy, which left a fatty layer over them. Of course this meant that we must train even harder to get more ripped and instead of that happening, we were doing more damage.
So basically you killed the muscle temporarily and wiped it out.
One summer the pollution levels were high in Los Angeles, which made it hard to *train legs due to the heavy breathing. So we rented and oxygen tank and used it in between sets to give us more energy. It was amazing how it really worked and boosted up or strength and recovery. Ever since that time, I keep one in my garage for those days and go out and hook up for twenty minutes. It revs me up for the rest of the day."*

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/over-training-back-in-the-day.html

See the heavy breathing discussed by the older timers is the "cardioacceleration" as mentioned in the article, and the results they quote are the same.


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## oldschool67 (Jun 25, 2014)

I used to think being sore was a requirement for growth, but soon after I started 5x5 training and the doms subsided, I grew like a weed and realized doms, in my case, wasn't exactly required for growth to occur.


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