# Dangers of keep test levels elevated year round



## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

I’ll give my disclaimer in advance, no I do not intend to ever do what I’m asking about. Just asking to learn and get y’all’s opinion on this. 

I am curious what are the health risks for the guys who keep their test levels over 2000-3000 year round or indefinitely, i resd a members post here how he like staying on a blast levels indefinitely and even ran 3g of test for some time. I’m sure some pros stay above 3000 total test for years at a time. 

What are he health risks of this? I am assuming major heart issue, cholesterol issues blood pressure. And I imagine an increase risk of heart attack or stroke.
i was given a talk by my doctor after my total test came back at 3000 
however I know doctors can be highly critical and over react to the risks of AAS. But wanted to seek some of yalls input 
not that I am disregarding my doctors advice as I for several months out of the year I drop my test levels to 900-1200 to give my body a rest as well as injection sites

I make sure to give blood 4 times a year at least and keep and eye on my blood pressure and stay up to date on my blood work.


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## #TheMatrix (Jan 23, 2019)

U/pillarofbalance

He'll start this off with a bang 

Long story short. You'll die quicker


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Not just regular old clot causing heart attacks either but cardiomyopathy.


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

I’ve been reading up on studies about steroid using bodybuilders and non steroid bodybuilders. I know studies can be flawed 
but I’ve seen some say steroid use will increase risk of heart diease and others stated no they don’t. Some state that steroid uses Lowers HDL and created some risks of heart disease and even sudden death and I’ve seen some say that it can even improve heart health and lowered LDL. So I’m kind of at a crossroads on what to believe. Obviously there’s a smart way to use AAS and then there’s straiggt Up abusing them which of course abusing anything will have risks. But some studies stated “heavy steroid” use showed no increase risk for heart disease but it didn’t specify what heavy steroid use was and medical doctors definition of heavy steroid use will probably differ from our definition of heavy use


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

The fact that so many bodybuilders with low bodyfat and an active lifestyle have died at young ages from heart attacks leads me to believe that at least some of it is factual.


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## Rhino99 (Jan 23, 2019)

Cardiomyopothy is caused by the heart having to work too hard. Thus is usually caused by high blood sugar and high blood pressure.
I would think if you kept your bp in range along with all other tests then you should be fine?

Having said that I'd like to see what others have to say, and if someone says it's bad then I'd like to see facts on why so, not just an opinion.


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## Rhino99 (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> The fact that so many bodybuilders with low bodyfat and an active lifestyle have died at young ages from heart attacks leads me to believe that at least some of it is factual.



Of course, but there's lots of irresponsible people in this world that dont keep on top of their health, whether it's an aas user or just an average schmoe.


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Rhino99 said:


> Cardiomyopothy is caused by the heart having to work too hard. Thus is usually caused by high blood sugar and high blood pressure.
> I would think if you kept your bp in range along with all other tests then you should be fine?
> 
> Having said that I'd like to see what others have to say, and if someone says it's bad then I'd like to see facts on why so, not just an opinion.



The heart is a muscle.  It responds to AAS as well.


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

Rhino99 said:


> Cardiomyopothy is caused by the heart having to work too hard. Thus is usually caused by high blood sugar and high blood pressure.
> I would think if you kept your bp in range along with all other tests then you should be fine?
> 
> Having said that I'd like to see what others have to say, and if someone says it's bad then I'd like to see facts on why so, not just an opinion.



Ive been told by some guys that as long you you keep your BP and hemocrit I’m check the risks are not as bad


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## Hurt (Jan 23, 2019)

Gains. The risk is gains.


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## Rhino99 (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> The heart is a muscle.  It responds to AAS as well.



Yup.
When your bp is high and your arteries are constricted your heart has to work that much harder to pump the blood. I could be wrong but I believe if your bp is normal things should be ok.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 23, 2019)

You could get away with this for a couple years probably so long as you did blood work and managed things as best you can. Probably the more acute issue would be cardiovascular risks.

But hey only one way to find out! Just leave me your old lady's Snapchat before you go k?


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

I figure other compounds would have more risk than testosterone, am I off base?
it appears that a TRT dose has more health benefits and no risks if properly monitored 
but seems there is not concrete answer as to high testosterone for extended periods of time create a significant risk in and of itself assuming BP, cholesterol and hemocrit are Keep in range, is that a safe statement to say or am I way off?


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> You could get away with this for a couple years probably so long as you did blood work and managed things as best you can. Probably the more acute issue would be cardiovascular risks.
> 
> But hey only one way to find out! Just leave me your old lady's Snapchat before you go k?



She will prolly Snap you now with me still ticking she’s a little thot lol.
but we used to be into the swinging thing so honestly that statement may be true haha.

would you say test levels of 1500-2000 for a year or two at a time would be harmful? personally I don’t feel any different at 3000 than I do during my usual blast levels of about 2000 maybe a bit easier to stay leaner but as far as Gains or strength that extra thousand of test doesn’t seem to make a major difference so maybe more isn’t better once your up to 2000 or so


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Ive seen it said many places that adequate "time off" reverses many of the cardiac risks we typically associate with steroids but I dont know what that is based on.  

In general though, the risks of carrying around a very large amount of muscle may be even greater than the risks of AAS use. Oxygenating a mass monster must be a really exhausting job. 

I saw Dave Palumbo say recently (who holds a medical degree) that he thought that being a 300lb bodybuilder for any length of time was the cause of most deaths. Guys who got to that size and then stayed that size for really long careers (like Nasser) tended to be at the highest risk


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## daddyboul (Jan 23, 2019)

Well, first of all, staying at those levels of test you can expect some serious muscle mass gains, the more muscle mass you have the more your heart has to work(muscle mass is very metabolic unlike adipose tissue). Usually(no matter how hard you try) having elevated test levels will come with increased blood pressure. Something that goes without talking a lot as well as the increase of insulin resistance. As a type I diabetic I notice this almost immediately when I'm on cycle I can find myself taking 4-5 times more insulin to cover the same amount of carbs as I would when I'm off cycle. I know some people here will dispute testosterone levels having any correlation with insulin resistance, but for me, its clear cut and obvious, so type II diabetes may be a danger of increased test levels. And then you also have the suppression of the immune system(this is really genetics over everything if you have a good immune system the suppression with test isn't going to make or break you, but if you have HIV/AIDS you might wanna watch it). Really, the dangers of test are no mystery, everyone here knows it can be dangerous, but making sure other aspects of your life are in shape can help mitigate these affects a lot, plus we dont do it because its safe or healthy we do it because we want to be massive, but really don't be ignorant or a Dave Palumbo and pretend there can literally be no negative effects associated with test in any way shape or form


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> Ive seen it said many places that adequate "time off" reverses many of the cardiac risks we typically associate with steroids but I dont know what that is based on.
> 
> In general though, the risks of carrying around a very large amount of muscle may be even greater than the risks of AAS use. Oxygenating a mass monster must be a really exhausting job.
> 
> I saw Dave Palumbo say recently (who holds a medical degree) that he thought that being a 300lb bodybuilder for any length of time was the cause of most deaths. Guys who got to that size and then stayed that size for really long careers (like Nasser) tended to be at the highest risk



Ya I have heard that too, I’ve read that serious powerlifters and bodybuilders will experience an enlarged ventricle in the heart even without the use of AAS and that serious powerlifting and bodybuilding can create issues with heart health. Makes sense after all too much of anything including muscle can be a bad thing....except booty....can never have too much big booty and I think Pillar will agree with me on that


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## Straight30weight (Jan 23, 2019)

PillarofBalance said:


> But hey only one way to find out! Just leave me your old lady's Snapchat before you go k?


Feel free to just post it publicly. That way we can all help her through the mourning period.


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Feel free to just post it publicly. That way we can all help her through the mourning period.



Shoot I should get her to make a premium snap and have her charge to see the pics 
boom rich


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## Straight30weight (Jan 23, 2019)

Texan69 said:


> Shoot I should get her to make a premium snap and have her charge to see the pics
> boom rich


Or.....you could hook upyour homies here at the UG for free. That’s another idea


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## jennerrator (Jan 23, 2019)

Texan69 said:


> I’ve been reading up on studies about steroid using bodybuilders and non steroid bodybuilders. I know studies can be flawed but I’ve seen some say steroid use will increase risk of heart disease



This is why my Dr. had me check mine almost 5 years ago


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## Jin (Jan 23, 2019)

Don’t be naive. 

What we do isn’t healthy. 

Anything above testosterone only TRT (test levels not above 1,000 in the trough) will cost you (years off your life). 

Eyes wide open. Weigh your risk vs reward. 

You can disregard any study that concludes using AAS will yield health positive results in the long term.


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## BRICKS (Jan 23, 2019)

Are supraphysiological levels of anything good for the body in the long run?

Rhetorical question....


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## Trump (Jan 23, 2019)

Isn’t being over weight anyway a stress on your heart. 300lb fat **** will have a stressed heart just as a 300lb bodybuilder will have a stressed heart. Both over weight for there natural hearts function. Or am I just talking shit??


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## Jin (Jan 23, 2019)

Trump said:


> Isn’t being over weight anyway a stress on your heart. 300lb fat **** will have a stressed heart just as a 300lb bodybuilder will have a stressed heart. Both over weight for there natural hearts function. Or am I just talking shit??



It isn’t healthy to be 300lbs.


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## Flyingdragon (Jan 23, 2019)

The roided out 300 pounder didnt start at 300#, he most likely was an average 180# who wanted to compete or see how big he could get.  So if u think the heart of a 180# can sustain the weight of 300# u are fooling yourself.  Also TRT doesnt carry the same risks as someone taking multiple compounds at whatever dosages one chooses.  When on TRT u are monitored, if test levels get back to normal or sky high the dr has the option to lower the dose or take u off completely.  So its a game between patient, doctor, testing lab in order to remain in TRT....200mg for most (standard TRT dose) isnt going to get one to test over 1000....


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## Trump (Jan 23, 2019)

That’s my point muscle or fat same stress on heart. The only thing a body builder could have advantage is his cardio as no 300lb fat **** is doing any unless he just started



Jin said:


> It isn’t healthy to be 300lbs.


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## NbleSavage (Jan 23, 2019)

I like the question posed, OP. 

I'd be interested in any studies that demonstrate causation (not just correlation) between perpetually elevated Test levels - say in the 2000 range - and heart disease.

I'm in the camp that elevated Test obviously contributes to addtl muscle mass which ye, can tax the heart - but to the point being made as to how the 'heart is a muscle' it too can be trained (cardio?) and its capacities elevated to offset the addtl demands of being a bigger bloke. Of course being a heavy lad and not training yer cardiovascular system is a recipe for a heart attack, but what of those athletes who do train cardio alongside their resistance training? 

Assuming we keep diet constant for sake of this discussion (meaning yer not ingesting a metric fook ton of junk food contributing to cholesterol problems) is it not the corresponding blood pressure issues from having a big body and a weaker heart that'll get ye if left unmanaged rather than anything brought on by the Test itself?


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Trump said:


> Isn’t being over weight anyway a stress on your heart. 300lb fat **** will have a stressed heart just as a 300lb bodybuilder will have a stressed heart. Both over weight for there natural hearts function. Or am I just talking shit??



Both are tougher on the heart but the 300 lbs of muscle requires much more work to keep oxygenated.  Rich Piana's heart was 2.5x the size of a normal healthy person. 

I see Jin and Pillar say regularly, "this will take years off your life", but I dont think that's necessarily true. I think the key to doing this is "get in/get out".  I think if you want to set some goals and spend 5-10 years using AAS responsibly you can really minimize health risks. But at some point as you start to get older, you have to accept that it's time to reduce muscle mass, drop the gear and live in a more realistic body. 

It seems that all the guys who went this route are living very healthy lives in their older years. But the guys who try to carry the party on end up losing many many years.


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## Jin (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> .
> 
> I see Jin and Pillar say regularly, "this will take years off your life", but I dont think that's necessarily true.



How’s the weather on your Pink Cloud?:32 (19):


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Jin said:


> How’s the weather on your Pink Cloud?:32 (19):



It's always kinda dreary to be honest. 

Id like to know why you disagree with me Jin. I mean, I know guys who are now in their late 60s who have been on for the better part of 50 years. Their use seems crazy to me but that's their passion. 

Drinking is horrible for you and will take years off your life but I did it to excess every day for probably 15 years. I cut it out of my life and I can see my body healing still now over 4 months later. Now, unless I have some cancer down in my stomach or something, Im not going die early from those years of abuse. How is AAS different?  Seriously wanting to learn.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 23, 2019)

Anything to the extreme will kill you...


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

The other thing to question is how much cardio any bodybuilder really does.  Bodybuilders seem to believe that cardio removes muscle so they use mostly diet to get bodyfat down. Huge muscular body, little cardio, large amounts of weight training. The heart continues to get larger but loses elasticity and function. Could large amounts of cardio negate the other risks?

The bodybuilders of Arnold's day did shitloads of cardio. They did it all the time. Didnt see any of them dropping dead.


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## Straight30weight (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> The other thing to question is how much cardio any bodybuilder really does.  Bodybuilders seem to believe that cardio removes muscle so they use mostly diet to get bodyfat down. Huge muscular body, little cardio, large amounts of weight training. The heart continues to get larger but loses elasticity and function. Could large amounts of cardio negate the other risks?
> 
> The bodybuilders of Arnold's day did shitloads of cardio. They did it all the time. Didnt see any of them dropping dead.


Their drug use was far less than bodybuilders of today. Not saying cardio doesn’t help, just saying it’s not really apples to apples.


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> Their drug use was far less than bodybuilders of today. Not saying cardio doesn’t help, just saying it’s not really apples to apples.



But far more than most recreational bodybuilders.  Im sure if any of us knew what Dallas McCarver was putting in himself we would say, that dude's gonna die" but to me, that kind of abuse is more like suicide. A lot of the guys of today just seem like they're asking for it. It's very sad


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## stanley (Jan 23, 2019)

Texan69 said:


> I’ll give my disclaimer in advance, no I do not intend to ever do what I’m asking about. Just asking to learn and get y’all’s opinion on this.
> 
> I am curious what are the health risks for the guys who keep their test levels over 2000-3000 year round or indefinitely, i resd a members post here how he like staying on a blast levels indefinitely and even ran 3g of test for some time. I’m sure some pros stay above 3000 total test for years at a time.
> 
> ...



iam one of those folk you are talking about.
bp is sweet ,120/80hart is sweet,69-70 at rest kok is sweet.allways hard.haha
and thats coming up to 4 years now.blasting,at3g,and some crusing at a gram.
happydays
I dont eat shite
and I do cardio when not on the tren run.
oh aye and just fathered a baby girl at the age of 51,tren baby .happydays.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 23, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> The other thing to question is how much cardio any bodybuilder really does.  Bodybuilders seem to believe that cardio removes muscle so they use mostly diet to get bodyfat down. Huge muscular body, little cardio, large amounts of weight training. The heart continues to get larger but loses elasticity and function. Could large amounts of cardio negate the other risks?
> 
> The bodybuilders of Arnold's day did shitloads of cardio. They did it all the time. Didnt see any of them dropping dead.



Still not true. Golden Era guys died young or had health problems too.

Avg NFL player dies between 53- 60. Most of them have taken something along the way too and I'm sure it contributes.

We are all playing with fire. It's personal decision as to whether or not you think it's worth it. Nothing makes me laugh more then when bros on the boards say Dr's don't know what they are talking about. Find a good Dr. They're out there.


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## Jin (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm taking about the difference between dying at 85 vs 80 (or 82 vs 80). Not dying in your 50-60’s. 

Although you certainly could abuse steroids to the point where it would take decades instead of years off. 

My grandfather was a pack a day smoker and alcoholic and he lived into his 70’s. 

Life expectancies are increasing. I’m ok taking a little back off the top for something I love.


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

Flyingdragon said:


> The roided out 300 pounder didnt start at 300#, he most likely was an average 180# who wanted to compete or see how big he could get.  So if u think the heart of a 180# can sustain the weight of 300# u are fooling yourself.  Also TRT doesnt carry the same risks as someone taking multiple compounds at whatever dosages one chooses.  When on TRT u are monitored, if test levels get back to normal or sky high the dr has the option to lower the dose or take u off completely.  So its a game between patient, doctor, testing lab in order to remain in TRT....200mg for most (standard TRT dose) isnt going to get one to test over 1000....




My father is on 200mg TRT from his doc and his last bloods came back at 1500 but not sure if it’s because it’s new to him he’s only been on for 7 weeks, his doctor did say it’s not uncommon to shoot up high and then after a few weeks stabilize down to the high hundreds


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 23, 2019)

Jin said:


> I'm taking about the difference between dying at 85 vs 80 (or 82 vs 80). Not dying in your 50-60’s.
> 
> Although you certainly could abuse steroids to the point where it would take decades instead of years off.
> 
> ...



Genetics have the most to do with everything. Rich Piana did NOT have any coronary artery disease in his autopsy. Enlarged heart - yes. Clogged arteries - no.

I work with a guy who's morbidly obese. I mean a seriously disgusting, mouth-breathing, pack a day smoking, 400lb pile of lard. He gets out of breath after 10 steps. I busted his balls to the point of him bringing in his physical results to prove he's "healthy". `120/80 BP and blood work to die for lol. His father is 98 and still mows the lawn with a push mower. Guys says his old man still smokes a pack of lucky strikes a day and drinks daily.

If you have a family history of heart conditions - like my family - you're really playing with fire. I just accept it. I'm pretty much trt only at this point since my priorities have changed since I'm now pushing 40. Small blast a year is it.


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## snake (Jan 23, 2019)

Just to add in something else; if you're running that high on your TT, you're probably taking an AI to combat your high E2. We talk about the effects of AAS use but no one ever mentions the ancillaries. Could the use of an AI also have some adverse effects on our health?


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## Jin (Jan 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Just to add in something else; if you're running that high on your TT, you're probably taking an AI to combat your high E2. We talk about the effects of AAS use but no one ever mentions the ancillaries. Could the use of an AI also have some adverse effects on our health?



Absolutely. Adex negatively affects cholesterol. 
_____\__________

We need facts and studies in this thread and not opinions. 

@MrRippedZilla


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 23, 2019)

Jin said:


> Absolutely. Adex negatively affects cholesterol.
> _____\__________
> 
> *We need facts and studies in this thread and not opinions.*
> ...




I think that's the big problem. There are no real studies of long-term, high dose steroid use because it would be unethical to even conduct the study. We are all just guessing. 

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know that long-term, high doses of anything from test to tylenol is not healthy.


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## Flyingdragon (Jan 23, 2019)

Lets see where he is at after the next few tests.....




Texan69 said:


> My father is on 200mg TRT from his doc and his last bloods came back at 1500 but not sure if it’s because it’s new to him he’s only been on for 7 weeks, his doctor did say it’s not uncommon to shoot up high and then after a few weeks stabilize down to the high hundreds


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 23, 2019)

Jin said:


> We need facts and studies in this thread and not opinions.  @MrRippedZilla


NbleSavage asked for data showing causation between superphysiological test levels and heart disease. This data doesn't exist and will probably never exist for a myriad of reasons - some related to ethics (which I hate as you know), others to control problems.

I don't think a rational person needs conclusive data to understand that high doses of anabolics will take years off your life. Look into the entire process of anabolism - it goes completely against what is necessary for life longevity (mTOR signalling, IGF-1, gaining weight, creating new satellite cells, etc, etc). I studied the link between AAS and left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH is a killer) years ago and concluded that those who didn't believe that AAS plays a role in LVH because we didn't have conclusion data showing causation were being...extremely naive. To put it politely. Especially with the constant deaths in the wrestling business. 

The belief that cardio will counteract the negatives on the heart is about as logical as believing that diet will counteract the negatives on your lipids. Or that reducing stress will counteract the negatives on your BP. Not backed up by data and never going to be backed up by data because the MOA doesn't check out. Lifestyle changes to counteract the effects of high doses drugs? Yea...good luck with that.


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## Seeker (Jan 23, 2019)

lots of eye opening reality in this thread.  Some out there still refuse to believe what's being said here.Thats too bad. I always knew what I was getting myself into. I have no hopes of miracles but I'm doing what I can to slow it down a little. It's ok, If I can  just hang on to see my kids to grow up and become healthy, independent and successful people.,  I'll be good to go after that


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> lots of eye opening reality in this thread.  Some out there still refuse to believe what's being said here.Thats too bad. I always knew what I was getting myself into. I have no hopes of miracles but I'm doing what I can to slow it down a little. It's ok, If I can  just hang on to see my kids to grow up and become healthy, independent and successful people.,  I'll be good to go after that



ya I agree, the way I see it if AAS use causes me to go at 75 instead of 85 then I’m fine with that, with all the sports I’ve played and military plus my current job I am certain my body won’t work for shit by then anyway so may as well be gone by then instead of living in pain in my recliner but like you said as long as I get to see my kid grow up and make a life for herself I’m all set


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## Texan69 (Jan 23, 2019)

snake said:


> Just to add in something else; if you're running that high on your TT, you're probably taking an AI to combat your high E2. We talk about the effects of AAS use but no one ever mentions the ancillaries. Could the use of an AI also have some adverse effects on our health?



Great point!!
this is why I tend to let my estrogen be and not treat it even if it is out of range unless I begin to get issues but my estrogen sits at 70-90 on my blast and never have i gotten 
Any signs of gyno or other issues but I keep AI’s on hand just in case but try not to take hem unless needed for this reason. I am lucky that I am not prone to this as my buddy got bad gyno from a TRT dose and has to take anastozole on his TRT 3x weekly


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## Straight30weight (Jan 23, 2019)

Flyingdragon said:


> Lets see where he is at after the next few tests.....


135mg has me at 800 plus. Never been tested at 200 but I imagine I’d be well over 1000


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## Seeker (Jan 23, 2019)

lol AI? rarely touch the stuff.


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## hulksmash (Jan 23, 2019)

I cruise at no less than 900mg/week.

Blood work was always perfect.

I did stop all gear and training before, so right now I have cruised at 900mg-1g/week for only 7 or 8 weeks.

Before the gear break, I cruised at 900mg from 2016-2017. Perfect blood work. Calcium and RBC was on the higher end of normal.

Potassium-which 98% dont reach RDI and you're part of that 98%-cured my high BP. RDI=3,500mg of potassium.

High BP? Get 3,500mg potassium daily. I have to take 30 pills of 99mg pofassium daily to hit RDI.


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## HollyWoodCole (Jan 23, 2019)

30 pills a day?? Holy wow.

Look, anyone that has reached a 3000ish test level has asked themselves if they could do it for long periods of time.  Super man feeling, great gains, blah blah blah.  Truth is that I begin to feel toxic at a certain point and want less chemicals in my body so I take breaks even from my TRT occasionally.  Nothing wrong with taking a break, and after you run a decently long blast you'll probably hit the same point.


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## hulksmash (Jan 23, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> 30 pills a day?? Holy wow.
> 
> Look, anyone that has reached a 3000ish test level has asked themselves if they could do it for long periods of time.  Super man feeling, great gains, blah blah blah.  Truth is that I begin to feel toxic at a certain point and want less chemicals in my body so I take breaks even from my TRT occasionally.  Nothing wrong with taking a break, and after you run a decently long blast you'll probably hit the same point.



FDA bans any OTC dose past 99mg. You have to get a script above 99mg.

98% of Americans dont reach 3,500 daily.

I researched for weeks-Potassium is a bigger cause of high BP than sodium is.

We don't intake a daily, higher Potassium:Sodium ratio. Thus, high BP is prevalent because of below RDI of potassium.

Try to intake 3,500mg potassium before medicine. It's very probable that your high BP will be cured. I stopped lisinopril and everything else.


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

I always thought Jin and Pillar were talking about more acute means to the end. I totally agree that bodybuilding alone will shorten your life whether drugs are involved or not. Having a larger body, eating more calories, higher BMR will all shorten lifespans. I guess, like most of you, I am not overly concerned whether I live to 90 or 85. Of course, by then we will all be getting intravenous stem cells so this all may be a moot discussion.


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## hulksmash (Jan 23, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> 30 pills a day?? Holy wow.
> 
> Look, anyone that has reached a 3000ish test level has asked themselves if they could do it for long periods of time.  Super man feeling, great gains, blah blah blah.  Truth is that I begin to feel toxic at a certain point and want less chemicals in my body so I take breaks even from my TRT occasionally.  Nothing wrong with taking a break, and after you run a decently long blast you'll probably hit the same point.



Also, that would suck if I responded the way you do. I feel ao bad for ya; it's not fair to you.

I can stay on a gram of test for years and run 3g or 4g and not get negative sides. However, I think I'm done doing experiments with my body and AAS. I do have to admit that if anyone here wanted me to try something, I may not be able to turn it down. I'm a scientist nerd at heart.

Me being free of negative sides makes it even harder to not experiment. I got the perfect body to subject AAS experiments to. For FFS I don't even lose hair.

One WEIRD effect of 2g or more of Test was the night sweats. It was a mimic of Tren with the sweating. Below 2g, the sweating waa nonexistent.


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## Trump (Jan 23, 2019)

You must be 400lb ripped taking all that gear??



hulksmash said:


> Also, that would suck if I responded the way you do. I feel ao bad for ya; it's not fair to you.
> 
> I can stay on a gram of test for years and run 3g or 4g and not get negative sides. However, I think I'm done doing experiments with my body and AAS. I do have to admit that if anyone here wanted me to try something, I may not be able to turn it down. I'm a scientist nerd at heart.
> 
> ...


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## hulksmash (Jan 23, 2019)

Trump said:


> You must be 400lb ripped taking all that gear??



Should be. Older members will attest to my wildness and lack of discipline I had. My diet was my limiter. This is the first year, in years, that I have a 100% strict diet. 

It makes me sad that NOW my diet is strict, after stopping fun experiments with AAS. It should've been strict before so I would have made mind blowing gains.


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## Iowabull (Jan 23, 2019)

Texan69 said:


> My father is on 200mg TRT from his doc and his last bloods came back at 1500 but not sure if it’s because it’s new to him he’s only been on for 7 weeks, his doctor did say it’s not uncommon to shoot up high and then after a few weeks stabilize down to the high hundreds


Is this 200mg a month or how often ?


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## Trump (Jan 23, 2019)

So what was the point of running gear like that to look no differfnt??



hulksmash said:


> Should be. Older members will attest to my wildness and lack of discipline I had. My diet was my limiter. This is the first year, in years, that I have a 100% strict diet.
> 
> It makes me sad that NOW my diet is strict, after stopping fun experiments with AAS. It should've been strict before so I would have made mind blowing gains.


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## BrotherJ (Jan 23, 2019)

The dangers? Okay, but what could be the potential benefits? Achieving demi-god status, scaling Mt. Olympus,  and overthrowing Zeus himself?


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 23, 2019)

BrotherJ said:


> The dangers? Okay, but what could be the potential benefits? Achieving demi-god status, scaling Mt. Olympus,  and overthrowing Zeus himself?



Being big doesn't make you tough...


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## Gadawg (Jan 23, 2019)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Being big doesn't make you tough...



That's true. Most really big dudes get so winded so fast, they aint wrestling peewee herman off the mountain. Lol


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## HollyWoodCole (Jan 23, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> Also, that would suck if I responded the way you do. I feel ao bad for ya; it's not fair to you.
> 
> I can stay on a gram of test for years and run 3g or 4g and not get negative sides. However, I think I'm done doing experiments with my body and AAS. I do have to admit that if anyone here wanted me to try something, I may not be able to turn it down. I'm a scientist nerd at heart.
> 
> ...


Eh, I know my limits and am comfortable with them.  I wish I could be side-effect free as you describe, but its not in the cards for me.  Honestly if you've been running a gram of test weekly for years you should be pretty ****ing big at this point, that's a shit ton of risk and wasted money if you haven't made any gains.


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## NbleSavage (Jan 24, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> NbleSavage asked for data showing causation between superphysiological test levels and heart disease. This data doesn't exist and will probably never exist for a myriad of reasons - some related to ethics (which I hate as you know), others to control problems.
> 
> I don't think a rational person needs conclusive data to understand that high doses of anabolics will take years off your life. Look into the entire process of anabolism - it goes completely against what is necessary for life longevity (mTOR signalling, IGF-1, gaining weight, creating new satellite cells, etc, etc). I studied the link between AAS and left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH is a killer) years ago and concluded that those who didn't believe that AAS plays a role in LVH because we didn't have conclusion data showing causation were being...extremely naive. To put it politely. Especially with the constant deaths in the wrestling business.
> 
> The belief that cardio will counteract the negatives on the heart is about as logical as believing that diet will counteract the negatives on your lipids. Or that reducing stress will counteract the negatives on your BP. Not backed up by data and never going to be backed up by data because the MOA doesn't check out. Lifestyle changes to counteract the effects of high doses drugs? Yea...good luck with that.



And so to set the record straight, I'm in no way advocating for keeping yer Test levels elevated constantly, but the obvious retort to the assertion that staying 'on' constantly will shorten yer life is the classic question: "Where are the bodies?"

To be more specific with this old saw, AAS have been abused for decades - surely by now there'd be a trail of dead bodybuilders, each having passed well earlier than the median for their age and demographic, yea? Do bodybuilders actually die on average earlier than non-bodybuilders with any consistency? What of?

I'm asking mostly for sake of the discussion, partly because I wince at "everyone knows that something is true" assertions.  And ye, I get it that labs won't soon condone scripting wankers with a gram of Test for five years running, but I would expect there to be some semblance of research conducted in this space depicting a correlation if the anecdotal evidence (body count) were strong.


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## hulksmash (Jan 24, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> Eh, I know my limits and am comfortable with them.  I wish I could be side-effect free as you describe, but its not in the cards for me.  Honestly if you've been running a gram of test weekly for years you should be pretty ****ing big at this point, that's a shit ton of risk and wasted money if you haven't made any gains.



Agreed. I quit training and gear after all that. Got down to 165lbs.

Few months ago I took lifting and gear serious again.


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## hulksmash (Jan 24, 2019)

Trump said:


> So what was the point of running gear like that to look no differfnt??



I did look different. I DIDN'T get all of the potential results that I would have if I had a strict diet.


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## #TheMatrix (Jan 24, 2019)

Nobody here advocates hulk's testing. It's his body and it was a trial.  We respected his decision. He's old school. 

Let's just say. Hulk was making gains while doing daily shit. Like walking to his car.... And grew back a finger


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## MrRippedZilla (Jan 24, 2019)

NbleSavage said:


> And so to set the record straight, I'm in no way advocating for keeping yer Test levels elevated constantly, but the obvious retort to the assertion that staying 'on' constantly will shorten yer life is the classic question: "Where are the bodies?"
> To be more specific with this old saw, AAS have been abused for decades - surely by now there'd be a trail of dead bodybuilders, each having passed well earlier than the median for their age and demographic, yea? Do bodybuilders actually die on average earlier than non-bodybuilders with any consistency? What of?
> I'm asking mostly for sake of the discussion, partly because I wince at "everyone knows that something is true" assertions. And ye, I get it that labs won't soon condone scripting wankers with a gram of Test for five years running, but I would expect there to be some semblance of research conducted in this space depicting a correlation if the anecdotal evidence (body count) were strong.


Keep in mind that bodybuilders aren't just taking AAS. They are taking a whole bunch of other stuff so it is impossible to prove causation. Correlation? I recommend looking into pro wrestling for body count - it's a long one:

Tom Zenk - heart attack at 59 primarily due to an enlarged heart and arterial sclerosis. 
Randy Savage - heart attack at 58 due to coronary artery disease (also had an enlarged heart). 
Ultimate Warrior - heart attack at 54 and a guy who in his prime took exactly the same stuff at the same doses as bodybuilders (late 80s-early 90s). 
Doug Furnas - died at 52 primarily due to hypertensive heart disease. Elite powerlifter before wrestling. 
Nicole Bass - heart attack at 52. Former female pro bodybuilder before wrestling. 
Hercules - dead at 47 due to heart disease. 
Road Warrior Hawk - dead at 46, heart attack. 
British Bulldog Davey Boy Smith - heart attack at 39. Well know drug abuser - high doses of AAS, GH. T3 and pretty much everything else in between. 
Eddie Guerrero - heart failure at 38 due to atherosclerosis. Eddie was notorious for being strict with his diet, training consistently, doing his cardio, etc. He took other drugs apart from AAS in his career BUT the AAS doses accelerated from 2002 onward in order to progress his career. He died in 2005. Do the math. 
Brian Pillman - heart attack at 35. Had a family history of atherosclerosis. 

All of those guys, most of whom are big names, abused AAS (I doubt any of them "cycled"). Most would easily pass for elite bodybuilders in their prime. Now, most also did use a bunch of other shit along with AAS (uppers, downers, GH, T3, alcohol, etc) but that doesn't change the fact that AAS abuse was a contributing factor to their deaths. I do consider it to be fairly strong anecdotal evidence personally.

I understand wincing at "everyone knows that something is true". I'm the same. A healthy dose of skepticism is very much the right mentality to have. For me, it's not so much what "everybody knows" as it is the anecdotal data combined with some rational thought about the MOAs at play here. I just can't, in good conscience, ignore this stuff.


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## Gadawg (Jan 24, 2019)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Keep in mind that bodybuilders aren't just taking AAS. They are taking a whole bunch of other stuff so it is impossible to prove causation. Correlation? I recommend looking into pro wrestling for body count - it's a long one:
> 
> Tom Zenk - heart attack at 59 primarily due to an enlarged heart and arterial sclerosis.
> Randy Savage - heart attack at 58 due to coronary artery disease (also had an enlarged heart).
> ...




As you stated though, pro wrestlers may not be a fair comparison because of the incredible abuse of stimulants and painkillers.  Probably for sure a contributing factor but that list would be a whole lot shorter if they were just using AAS.


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## Texan69 (Jan 24, 2019)

Iowabull said:


> Is this 200mg a month or how often ?[/QUOTE
> once a week 200mg. Trying to convince him to do 100mg twice per week though for a more steady level


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## Texan69 (Jan 24, 2019)

Gadawg said:


> As you stated though, pro wrestlers may not be a fair comparison because of the incredible abuse of stimulants and painkillers.  Probably for sure a contributing factor but that list would be a whole lot shorter if they were just using AAS.



I agree I would imagine those guys abused painkillers and even recreational drugs. Not to dog on them but I imagine it would be hard to avoid it with that much money and fame 
going to parties I imagine the abundance of cocaine and various pills would be there and I could see it being easy to fall into that addiction. I would say that any street drug or abuse of painkillers would be far worse than AAS although I have no proof but just seems logical.


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## Gadawg (Jan 24, 2019)

Texan69 said:


> I agree I would imagine those guys abused painkillers and even recreational drugs. Not to dog on them but I imagine it would be hard to avoid it with that much money and fame
> going to parties I imagine the abundance of cocaine and various pills would be there and I could see it being easy to fall into that addiction. I would say that any street drug or abuse of painkillers would be far worse than AAS although I have no proof but just seems logical.



It's not partying per say. It's physical abuse and the incredible hours. Jake the snake said he wrestled seven days a week and twice each weekend day for years. Speed and painkillers become necessary.


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## hulksmash (Jan 24, 2019)

IMO, all the deaths in BBing and forum members are because of lacking cardio, letting their potassium:sodium ratio be ignored, and diets based on looks rather than longevity.

We know AAS can affect hearts, yet everybody and their momma refuses to do every variable needed to protect health.

Physique beats longevity. AAS doesnt kill; it increases risks to health. Then everyone ignores the risks. Fruit? Nah brah, gots to get shredded!


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## hulksmash (Jan 24, 2019)

#TheMatrix said:


> Nobody here advocates hulk's testing. It's his body and it was a trial.  We respected his decision. He's old school.
> 
> Let's just say. Hulk was making gains while doing daily shit. Like walking to his car.... And grew back a finger



Yea, and i even wrote disclaimers on my threads! I rather no one do what I do, and just have fun reading about resulta.

Btw, the finger is normal except for one thing-the new nail that grew kept a curve due to the bandage, like how trees can grow curved and such.


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## Bro Bundy (Jan 24, 2019)

post up a pic of that finger


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## #TheMatrix (Jan 24, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> post up a pic of that finger


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## Bro Bundy (Jan 24, 2019)

thats disgusting


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## #TheMatrix (Jan 24, 2019)

Bro Bundy said:


> thats disgusting



Yup. Happened 2 days ago. 
I threw up looking at it


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## Bullseye Forever (Jan 25, 2019)

Take it from experience! Your hematocrit will be very high,your blood thick as sorghum molasses and you will die quicker!! Don’t matter how many times you donate IF you keep your test levels real high for more than say 2 years!! 

At my TRT dose of 200mg/week I havet to donate once every 1-2 months! This is my Onocologist/Hematologists helping me! When I run a cycle he helps me with mine but I don’t run real high doses either


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## Bullseye Forever (Jan 25, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> IMO, all the deaths in BBing and forum members are because of lacking cardio, letting their potassium:sodium ratio be ignored, and diets based on looks rather than longevity.
> 
> We know AAS can affect hearts, yet everybody and their momma refuses to do every variable needed to protect health.
> 
> Physique beats longevity. AAS doesnt kill; it increases risks to health. Then everyone ignores the risks. Fruit? Nah brah, gots to get shredded!



Yes number one,take care of your heart and blood!! If you use’n!!


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