# 2 grams of testosterone



## hulksmash

I get a lot of PMs concerning my dosages/beliefs/etc. *I still advise everyone to start with 500mg Test E/week as their first, and go up from there. I also believe the fewer the compounds, the better (no reason to run more than 2 compounds at a time if you're not competing).* *DON'T DO WHAT I DO!*

Well, I got this PM and thought it would be entertaining to post it:



> I am curious what your cycles are like and how you feel they work for you.  Your post in the thread about going into the unknown is what prompts my question.  In there you said you have been on Test E at over 1000mg/w for over a year and the sweet spot is 2000mg/w.
> 
> *My trainer has this theory, that I think is right, that you can continue to blast indefinitely as long as the side effects are under control, your health is good and you continue to gain.  He says the initial gains are mostly water and glycogen, and that the muscle gains are not as noticeable.  But if you are gaining weight over time and not getting too fat, you are still gaining.  It seems like 1 or 2 pounds of lean muscle gains per month would be about the best I could expect without HGH and Slin.  He talks about the side diminishing with increased dosing, as your body adjusts and hits a new equilibrium.  It seems to me that if true, then what most people consider gains are really sides like bloating and increased water and glycogen, instead of actual muscle.  And if true, then cycling on and off looking for large fluctuations in weight is chasing the sides and not the actual gains, and is likely counterproductive.*
> 
> I have been blasting continuously since last August and plan to continue until X-mas this year.  That will be 1.5 years blasting for me, and now, about 8 months in I am continuing to see gains.
> 
> What do you think about the above, and can you share some of your experience while on high doses for long periods?
> 
> Also, will you tell me what it feels like to be on 2,000 mg of Test e each week?
> 
> Thanks.



Yes, I believe cycling on/off is a waste and you are going 2 steps forward, 1 step back-*HOWEVER, my goals come first; health/natty test levels second.*

Being on indefinitely has helped me to realize that gains ARE SLOW (it still takes years for even pros to make huge changes) and that calories become the only number that matters for physique composition. 

Being on 2g or even 3g of Test E, you feel like superman. Your libido is like a teenager. At 3g, I got night sweats like tren-although much milder.

Thanks to Swiper and other folks opening my eyes to how much competitors really run, I'll never go below a gram of test e again. 

I ONLY run Test E. For blasts, I do 2g Test E. My last blast, I did 2g Test E, 1g Deca. I'll just stick to test only; the added gains (besides joint comfort) were negligible.


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## ECKSRATED

Do u compete or ever want to compete? If not then 3 gs a week is kind of ridiculous. Not being a Dick wither but with consistently running that much gear I would expect you to be alot bigger. 

And just because bloods come back in reasonable ranges does not mean your "healthy".


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## hulksmash

ECKSRATED said:


> Do u compete or ever want to compete? If not then 3 gs a week is kind of ridiculous. Not being a Dick wither but with consistently running that much gear I would expect you to be alot bigger.
> 
> And just because bloods come back in reasonable ranges does not mean your "healthy".



Totally agree.

Honestly, 3g was experimenting. I just view my body as a lab rat-I guess I desire experiences/knowledge so much that it makes me reckless. You only love once, though.


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## hulksmash

italian1 said:


> Is that a current pic in your avi?



Yes; I'd be bigger if I would've eaten more than 1 meal a day since December.

Have on average 1,200-1,500cals daily since December..

Now that all the chaos in my life has FINALLY stopped, I can eat more.


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## Bro Bundy

hulk as a friend i think u need to lower your dose..a g is alot for guys like us..we dont compete we dont make any money at all from this..you dont need that much gear


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## hulksmash

Brother Bundy said:


> hulk as a friend i think u need to lower your dose..a g is alot for guys like us..we dont compete we dont make any money at all from this..you dont need that much gear



Depends on goal..may not compete, but want competition physique for example.

I did go under a gram for a couple months ago to save funds. Just doesn't feel as good and don't stay/get as lean.


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## ECKSRATED

hulksmash said:


> Depends on goal..may not compete, but want competition physique for example.
> 
> I did go under a gram for a couple months ago to save funds. Just doesn't feel as good and don't stay/get as lean.


That right there is testament to you relying on the gear to stay lean. Now I don't know what u had goin on in your personal life that u couldn't eat and stuff but now that u say it's gone and can focus on diet why don't u try lowering the dose for a little while and giveyour heart and body a break. 

We had a doctor on our other forum and that was the biggest thing he would preach to us, give your heart a break for a little while and cruise on a low dose (trt) for a few months. 

I don't wanna see any of the guys here get hurt or have complications from any of the shut we do. Stay safe.


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## Jayjay82

Hulk when you go over a G of test it's like running a totally different compound exactly as brother bundy said if you are not competing or getting paid it's not worth it there is such a thing as too much and maybe it's not the gains you are liking but the way you feel on a dose like that you can get pretty damn good results using test up to 800 but a g is just nuts not worth it when sides become more prominent than gains just my 2 cents you are an adult and can make your own decisions


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## hulksmash

Everyone else here runs a gram or more of gear.

They use multiple compounds, however.

I KISS, which I feel is healthier.


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## Jayjay82

Yeah but most of the people running a g of test or more are competing there are so many other options you can run an aas specifically to lean you out or a thermogenic


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## Jayjay82

Also I think it's healthier using 2 different compounds than just 1 at a very high dose remember that is why they make all kinds of different compounds depending on the results you are looking for and yes test should always be the base maybe try lower test dose with primo, tren, halo, winny, masteron or look into dnp or T3


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## Joliver

Jayjay82 said:


> Also I think it's healthier using 2 different compounds than just 1 at a very high dose remember that is why they make all kinds of different compounds depending on the results you are looking for and yes test should always be the base maybe try lower test dose with primo, tren, halo, winny, masteron or look into dnp or T3



That isnt necessarily true.  Each compound will have its own hangups, but what Hulk is trying to say is that most people dont rally think about their use in aggregate.  You will see that someone says:  500mgs test e, 400mgs tren, 350mg masteron, 50mgs of dbol per day.  

In aggregate, they are taking 1.6 grams of gear with 350mg coming from orals.  Hulk isnt much beyond that and doesn't have to watch his liver as closely.  

Is it safe?  None of this is completely safe.  Watch your bp and blood profiles, and you will be better off.  But no safety is guaranteed in this business.


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## Jayjay82

Yes Joli you have hit it on the head you do have to sacrifice something just hope it's nothing serious


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## Big Worm

Hulk, juice till your heart explodes......no one is going to argue with you.  You are dead set on doing it so do it.  We will say nice things about you when your time is up.


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## Canadian muscle

You will only respond so much from that much gear and just get sick. 
Eventually you Weill had to come off if you really even want more growth


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## JAXNY

2 grams of test I think is not necessary. 3 grams is just over board. That's 12-15cc of fluid into your body. 
I honestly don't believe you are going to get any better results past a gram to 1.2 grams of test. And I'd say 2 grams of multiple compounds should be more than sufficient.  You are going to over stress your organs. 
I'm a high volume guy as well but with multiple compounds I don't believe II've been over 1.8 grams. 
I'm a pretty good size guy and have gotten there with about half the dosage you are taking. 3grams is, well let's say the risk out weights the reward. 
Not trying to be an ass Hulk just hate to see anyone get hurt. Ots risky enough what we do.


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## coltmc4545

It's kind of funny, when I prepped for my show it was the smallest cycle I've ever ran and I was in the best condition of my life. I ran 300 mg total a week. Goes to show how much we depend on gear instead of diet. I'm guilty myself. Personally I think it's stupid to run that much gear if there's no competition in the future. Why would you want a competition body if you're not competing?


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## hulksmash

joliver said:


> That isnt necessarily true.  Each compound will have its own hangups, but what Hulk is trying to say is that most people dont rally think about their use in aggregate.  You will see that someone says:  500mgs test e, 400mgs tren, 350mg masteron, 50mgs of dbol per day.
> 
> In aggregate, they are taking 1.6 grams of gear with 350mg coming from orals.  Hulk isnt much beyond that and doesn't have to watch his liver as closely.
> 
> Is it safe?  None of this is completely safe.  Watch your bp and blood profiles, and you will be better off.  But no safety is guaranteed in this business.




Exactly. The majority run a total that is at a gram or exceeds a gram..so why am I chastised when I run only one compound and no orals? I keep it simple and believe the less compounds=less strain on your body.

I knew it would stir the pot a bit and I'm glad I did!


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## hulksmash

coltmc4545 said:


> It's kind of funny, when I prepped for my show it was the smallest cycle I've ever ran and I was in the best condition of my life. I ran 300 mg total a week. Goes to show how much we depend on gear instead of diet. I'm guilty myself. Personally I think it's stupid to run that much gear if there's no competition in the future. Why would you want a competition body if you're not competing?



Just what I want. It's just as simple as that; no one will make me want a different goal.

Diet is where it's all at. Gear won't do shit without a great diet.


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## hulksmash

JAXNY said:


> 2 grams of test I think is not necessary. 3 grams is just over board. That's 12-15cc of fluid into your body.
> I honestly don't believe you are going to get any better results past a gram to 1.2 grams of test. And I'd say 2 grams of multiple compounds should be more than sufficient.  You are going to over stress your organs.
> I'm a high volume guy as well but with multiple compounds I don't believe II've been over 1.8 grams.
> I'm a pretty good size guy and have gotten there with about half the dosage you are taking. 3grams is, well let's say the risk out weights the reward.
> Not trying to be an ass Hulk just hate to see anyone get hurt. Ots risky enough what we do.



You don't sound like an ass at all!

Remember, the 3G was just experimentation.


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## hulksmash

Canadian muscle said:


> You will only respond so much from that much gear and just get sick.
> Eventually you Weill had to come off if you really even want more growth



That's total broscience...

More dosages=more results; they are even studies showing this if seeing how pros gain 40lbs in 3 years isn't enough.

However, *there is a dosage ceiling.*

That's the reason you'll never see/hear the higher ranks in competing go past 4 grams. It's pointless after that amount.

It was definitely fun doing 3grams, but not worth the cost.

IF I had gh and slin WITH 3g of aas-that would be worth it and give phenomenal changes in several months.


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## PillarofBalance

I don't see the big deal about 2 grams for an experienced user. My last blast was 1.2g test cyp 300 TNE and 600 NPP weekly. Along with 150 drol and 50 dbol daily.

Man and I remember that days when you used to take your prohormones and were nervous about the drol coming


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## hulksmash

PillarofBalance said:


> I don't see the big deal about 2 grams for an experienced user. My last blast was 1.2g test cyp 300 TNE and 600 NPP weekly. Along with 150 drol and 50 dbol daily.
> 
> Man and I remember that days when you used to take your prohormones and were nervous about the drol coming



Haha and my big bro made sure to troll me and make me more paranoid! 

Superdrol is honestly the only legal oral that was worth it. But **** orals and super's lethargy.


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## hulksmash

losieloos said:


> **** orals???? **** you!



Honestly if you're not competing AND even if you still want a competitive physique like I do, then there IS NO REASON TO RUN ORALS

Gains/physique changes happen in months. Orals are quick-only purpose is contest prep.

Since results come in months/years:
1. It's more logical to avoid orals-long ester injects are the best for non-competitors. You can stay on longer since you need to-again, results only happen in months/years.

2. Orals strain the liver. There is no point to risk liver health if you never have to contest prep.

3. Orals are weaker. You will ALWAYS get better results from injectable, given you use enough dosages.


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## f.r.a.n.k.

I don't have much to add other than do the math people. How can you advise against 2g of test, yet run 1g of test and 600deca with 350mg of an oral each week. Still 2g of aas. Test is the safest compound we can run so take advantage of that shit an appreciate the power of test.
If your goals require other benefits such as collagen synthesis than yes, run your deca or eq but if this is not needed, than I believe the compounds aren't necessary. 
KISS is a very true statement.
Test and orals for me for a while. Maybe...depends on my joints. They suck ass...so I may need some deca in my near future. We will see.




Oh and TBOLLLLLLLLLLL!


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## DocDePanda187123

Not all orals are weaker than Injectables. Some actually are muh much stronger on a mg per my basis but the difference is as you said, you can't run them as much or as long as injectables.


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## JAXNY

PillarofBalance said:


> I don't see the big deal about 2 grams for an experienced user. My last blast was 1.2g test cyp 300 TNE and 600 NPP weekly. Along with 150 drol and 50 dbol daily.
> 
> Man and I remember that days when you used to take your prohormones and were nervous about the drol coming



Well this is starting to make a little sense right Here. 150mg of drol? It's obvious now to me that the ug gear isn't as potent. I  used to do only 50mg of the syntax anadrol, that was the real stuff back in the day for you guys who don't know. And that was strong!!
I might may of heard a guy or two daring to do 100mg. 
Now that I think about it I did try UG  drol once, wasn't impressed.


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## Get Some

People tend to forget that using more test is a complete waste unless you are eating enough food. You will actually piss out the unused hormone... so you could actually be doing more harm to your wallet than anything.

If you want to stay lean and not get any bigger, the key is to ABSOLUTELY use more than one compound and drop the test as low as possible. This may be news to some but it's the best possible solution. 800mg primo with 200mg test weekly will shred you up way more than a gram of test. 200mg test and 600mg tren will shred you up even more! SO, unless you are really going for monster status, keep that test lower and add in another compound.


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## hulksmash

Docd187123 said:


> Not all orals are weaker than Injectables. Some actually are muh much stronger on a mg per my basis but the difference is as you said, you can't run them as much or as long as injectables.



I know that already! Doc you know what I'm saying.

They are WEAKER results wise.

Why? Time limitation. 

Run orals as long as you could injectables and they would be "stronger".

I'm only taking about results-the only thing that matters.


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## hulksmash

Get Some said:


> People tend to forget that using more test is a complete waste unless you are eating enough food. You will actually piss out the unused hormone... so you could actually be doing more harm to your wallet than anything.
> 
> If you want to stay lean and not get any bigger, the key is to ABSOLUTELY use more than one compound and drop the test as low as possible. This may be news to some but it's the best possible solution. 800mg primo with 200mg test weekly will shred you up way more than a gram of test. 200mg test and 600mg tren will shred you up even more! SO, unless you are really going for monster status, keep that test lower and add in another compound.



I disagree. Hell pros stick to just 2 in the offseason-test, deca (and orals). Arabs prefer EQ and deca.

It's never a waste per say because you'll stay lean or lose more bodyfat.

It is a waste if eating that little going for size. 

I totally disagree with multiple compound use. 2 at most is all that's needed.


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## losieloos

JAXNY said:


> Well this is starting to make a little sense right Here. 150mg of drol? It's obvious now to me that the ug gear isn't as potent. I  used to do only 50mg of the syntax anadrol, that was the real stuff back in the day for you guys who don't know. And that was strong!!
> I might may of heard a guy or two daring to do 100mg.
> Now that I think about it I did try UG  drol once, wasn't impressed.


you weren't impressed? Its obvious the drol back then isn't as potent as the drol today. I LOVE ANADROL.


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## Seeker

hulksmash said:


> Everyone else here runs a gram or more of gear.
> 
> They use multiple compounds, however.
> 
> I KISS, which I feel is healthier.



Here is my 02 regarding this remark. I'm not saying i'm correct, just my ASSesment.  Opinions are gonna vary but I feel that the combination of two to three compounds in moderate doses is much more effective and also guarantees a longer duration of effect than when only one compound is taken in a higher dosage.

With the correct combinations one will be able to obtain a synergetic  effect if one properly plans selecting compounds that have different influences on  the factors of strength, tissue growth, and recovery.

Synergy, which implies that two or more compounds are being used together will often compliment each other, providing a greater muscle gain than if used alone in higher doses.


 Of course there is a negative side too. With each compound added the liver has to work harder to to metabolize it and remove it from your body.


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## hulksmash

Also using JUST TEST but with different dosages is the safest thing you can choose to do with gear. Your own body creates it.

That's my non-verifiable opinion.


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## Get Some

hulksmash said:


> Honestly if you're not competing AND even if you still want a competitive physique like I do, then there IS NO REASON TO RUN ORALS
> 
> Gains/physique changes happen in months. Orals are quick-only purpose is contest prep.
> 
> Since results come in months/years:
> 1. It's more logical to avoid orals-long ester injects are the best for non-competitors. You can stay on longer since you need to-again, results only happen in months/years.
> 
> 2. Orals strain the liver. There is no point to risk liver health if you never have to contest prep.
> 
> 3. Orals are weaker. You will ALWAYS get better results from injectable, given you use enough dosages.



I couldn't possibly disagree more with this... all orals are stronger than injectables and saying anything to the contrary is ludicrous. That's like saying a marathon runner is faster than a sprinter! Compare the physiques and compare the results. 4 weeks of dbol/drol will get you what 3+ months of test will, I've done it myself. Yes, to keep those gains you run test alongside and continue to run test. 
Long ester injectables are MUCH harsher on the HPTA than short ester injects. You have no concern for your health so I can understand why you made the statement you did. But to say that results only happen in months/years is very misleading. That would be a true statement if you said it about HGH, but not AAS. 2 months and 2 years is a big difference, you have to be more specific. 

Oral AAS hepatotoxicity is grossly overstated in most accounts. The liver is the best self-regenerating organ in your body, even better than your skin! There are plenty of studies around showing patients running Anadrol at a dose exceeding 150mg daily for an entire YEAR! Their liver values came back elevated, but not life-threatening. Now if you can imagine only running it for 6 weeks max rather than a year you can understand what I'm trying to say here. 

Another thing people do not get is the amount of stress large amounts of injectable AAS put on your kidneys. Look it up if you don't believe me. Your kidneys are just as important as your liver, even though you have 2 in case you **** one of them up  

IN the end, you will do what you want and I know you are not advocating high dosage use for everyone. But please do not post a list of uneducated comments leading people to believe you know what you are talking about. 

Oh, and I love you  I only respond to things like this because I care.


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## Seeker

hulksmash said:


> Also using JUST TEST but with different dosages is the safest thing you can choose to do with gear. Your own body creates it.
> 
> That's my non-verifiable opinion.



I did throw in the negative side of my comment.  lol


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## Get Some

hulksmash said:


> Also using JUST TEST but with different dosages is the safest thing you can choose to do with gear. Your own body creates it.
> 
> That's my non-verifiable opinion.



Exogenous test is foreign to the human body. The only way this argument stands up is if you have access to bioidentical hormones, which no one does.


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## hulksmash

Seeker said:


> Here is my 02 regarding this remark. I'm not saying i'm correct, just my ASSesment.  Opinions are gonna vary but I feel that the combination of two to three compounds in moderate doses is much more effective and also guarantees a longer duration of effect than when only one compound is taken in a higher dosage.
> 
> With the correct combinations one will be able to obtain a synergetic  effect if one properly plans selecting compounds that have different influences on  the factors of strength, tissue growth, and recovery.
> 
> Synergy, which implies that two or more compounds are being used together will often compliment each other, providing a greater muscle gain than if used alone in higher doses.
> 
> 
> Of course there is a negative side too. With each compound added the liver has to work harder to to metabolize it and remove it from your body.



I will tell you this-

Tren decreases protein synthesis. It also decreases PROTEIN DEGRADATION. It decreases degradation so much more that YOU END UP WITH A HIGH NET PROTEIN ACCRETION.

Test increases protein synthesis AND degradation. Test has a higher rate of synthesis vs degradation, THUS YOU END UP WITH HIGH NET PROTEIN ACCRETION.

Thus, tren and test can be synergistic-tren will lower the increased degradation; test will increased the lowered synthesis rate.


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## hulksmash

Get Some said:


> I couldn't possibly disagree more with this... all orals are stronger than injectables and saying anything to the contrary is ludicrous. That's like saying a marathon runner is faster than a sprinter! Compare the physiques and compare the results. 4 weeks of dbol/drol will get you what 3+ months of test will, I've done it myself. Yes, to keep those gains you run test alongside and continue to run test.
> Long ester injectables are MUCH harsher on the HPTA than short ester injects. You have no concern for your health so I can understand why you made the statement you did. But to say that results only happen in months/years is very misleading. That would be a true statement if you said it about HGH, but not AAS. 2 months and 2 years is a big difference, you have to be more specific.
> 
> Oral AAS hepatotoxicity is grossly overstated in most accounts. The liver is the best self-regenerating organ in your body, even better than your skin! There are plenty of studies around showing patients running Anadrol at a dose exceeding 150mg daily for an entire YEAR! Their liver values came back elevated, but not life-threatening. Now if you can imagine only running it for 6 weeks max rather than a year you can understand what I'm trying to say here.
> 
> Another thing people do not get is the amount of stress large amounts of injectable AAS put on your kidneys. Look it up if you don't believe me. Your kidneys are just as important as your liver, even though you have 2 in case you **** one of them up
> 
> IN the end, you will do what you want and I know you are not advocating high dosage use for everyone. But please do not post a list of uneducated comments leading people to believe you know what you are talking about.
> 
> Oh, and I love you  I only respond to things like this because I care.



Oh you're not bothering me at all bud!

I don't care about the HPTA because I'm never coming off. I agree the caution is overused concerning the liver, but the better option for liver health is to avoid all orals.

The changes I'm talking about with gear is eg Phil Heath amateur to 3 years later pro size. 

Little results can happen quickly with gear. Big changes, the ones I care about-takes months and years.

Kidneys are affected due to the increase in blood pressure and net protein excretion. Control BP and water intake and you'll be fine.


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## hulksmash

Get Some said:


> Exogenous test is foreign to the human body. The only way this argument stands up is if you have access to bioidentical hormones, which no one does.



I understand and it makes that point wrong.

I still believe 1 is better than 3 for health.


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## Get Some

hulksmash said:


> I disagree. Hell pros stick to just 2 in the offseason-test, deca (and orals). Arabs prefer EQ and deca.
> 
> It's never a waste per say because you'll stay lean or lose more bodyfat.
> 
> It is a waste if eating that little going for size.
> 
> I totally disagree with multiple compound use. 2 at most is all that's needed.



I was speaking strictly about getting ripped here, not big.... pros come off test completely pre-contest because it limits them from reaching sub 5% bodyfat. Also, I never mentioned more than 2 compounds in any of my examples. I just don't think you need to run more than a gram of test unless you have 50+ lbs to gain or if you feel you are 50+ lbs above your genentic limitations and are looking to keep that size. Maybe you are looking to get much larger than you are, and if that is the case then I'd say you are on the right track. You've done well to get where you are now judging by the avi, but a lot of guys could do that naturally. Whatever floats your boat is cool with me, I'm just saying for me personally if I was going to run that much test I'd like to see more results or have a clear plan for what I was going after. 

You can gain a keepable 20 lbs every 4 weeks if you run the right orals and eat 6,000+ cals a day, I know because I've done it. It's all about how you eat/train/sleep during PCT or cruise. For those that blast all day every day there is no such thing as losing gains unless you get lazy with your diet.


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## losieloos

First you talk shit about orals now you're talking shit about tren? Hulk all that test is cutting the air circulation of oxygen to your brain.  Go donate some blood.


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## JAXNY

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> I don't have much to add other than do the math people. How can you advise against 2g of test, yet run 1g of test and 600deca with 350mg of an oral each week. Still 2g of aas. Test is the safest compound we can run so take advantage of that shit an appreciate the power of test.
> If your goals require other benefits such as collagen synthesis than yes, run your deca or eq but if this is not needed, than I believe the compounds aren't necessary.
> KISS is a very true statement.
> Test and orals for me for a while. Maybe...depends on my joints. They suck ass...so I may need some deca in my near future. We will see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and TBOLLLLLLLLLLL!



Sorry FRANK test is not the safest compound. Deca has far less sides.  The debate on why not run 2 grams of test but run 2 grams of combined compounds is that many believe 2 grams of test isn't any more beneficial than 1 gram. So why over tax your body for nothing. 2 grams of 2 or 3 compounds you will at least get some benefits from.


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## Get Some

hulksmash said:


> I will tell you this-
> 
> Tren decreases protein synthesis. It also decreases PROTEIN DEGRADATION. It decreases degradation so much more that YOU END UP WITH A HIGH NET PROTEIN ACCRETION.
> 
> Test increases protein synthesis AND degradation. Test has a higher rate of synthesis vs degradation, THUS YOU END UP WITH HIGH NET PROTEIN ACCRETION.
> 
> Thus, tren and test can be synergistic-tren will lower the increased degradation; test will increased the lowered synthesis rate.



There is a very important reason why tren decreases proteolysis... that's why fina is used by cattle farmers to fatten up their stock with less feed. By decreasing the net reaction to protease by limiting the amount of available ligands to pair with active molecules, the digestion is slower and limits the amount of food you have to eat (because more of it is used than wasted). Tren is the perfect cutting drug because you won't feel nearly as hungry in a calorie deficient environment and you can actually gain muscle in this state if you play your cards right and don't over train.


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## hulksmash

losieloos said:


> First you talk shit about orals now you're talking shit about tren? Hulk all that test is cutting the air circulation of oxygen to your brain.  Go donate some blood.



The hell? I didn't bash tren?!

I said how test and tren could be synergistic!

Wtf?


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## JAXNY

losieloos said:


> you weren't impressed? Its obvious the drol back then isn't as potent as the drol today. I LOVE ANADROL.



You have me lost on your comment losieloos. Maybe I didn't state it correctly. There was no anadrol  better than anadrol by syntex.  That was a legit lab. The original. 
The stuff was very strong. My gains were huge on only 50mg. Stregnth ridiculous. You gain water very easy with anadrol and it's toxic on the liver. You didn't need more than 50mg. Like I said I may of heard of a guy or 2 daring to take 100mg. as a matter of fact I remember now a buddy of mine did take a 100mg of the syntax. Not for very long though as he started getting nose bleeds and severe headaches. 150mg I can't imagine. But if you guys are running 150mg as PB said then it tells me that the UG gear isn't as potent and maybe the reason why you guys are running your dosages so high.   So no I wasn't impressed with the UG anadrol I tried. I'm sure there is probably better out there. Ots UG.  You never know exactly what you are getting.


----------



## hulksmash

Get Some said:


> I was speaking strictly about getting ripped here, not big.... pros come off test completely pre-contest because it limits them from reaching sub 5% bodyfat. Also, I never mentioned more than 2 compounds in any of my examples. I just don't think you need to run more than a gram of test unless you have 50+ lbs to gain or if you feel you are 50+ lbs above your genentic limitations and are looking to keep that size. Maybe you are looking to get much larger than you are, and if that is the case then I'd say you are on the right track. You've done well to get where you are now judging by the avi, but a lot of guys could do that naturally. Whatever floats your boat is cool with me, I'm just saying for me personally if I was going to run that much test I'd like to see more results or have a clear plan for what I was going after.
> 
> You can gain a keepable 20 lbs every 4 weeks if you run the right orals and eat 6,000+ cals a day, I know because I've done it. It's all about how you eat/train/sleep during PCT or cruise. For those that blast all day every day there is no such thing as losing gains unless you get lazy with your diet.



Yea, I'm on the right track. I want to be much larger than I believe everyone assumes.

Guys couldn't reach my size naturally while this lean. They could reach the size but have way more bodyfat. 

Let's not get into that debate, however (you know get some that would **** up the thread )

I have a clear plan and goal. I haven't stopped getting results, either. Size was limited due to 1 meal a day.

Life is great now, and I'm eating several meals a day! Now I'll be much larger.


----------



## losieloos

Hulksmash is the ian McCarthy of steroids.


----------



## JAXNY

hulksmash said:


> I know that already! Doc you know what I'm saying.
> 
> They are WEAKER results wise.
> 
> Why? Time limitation.
> 
> Run orals as long as you could injectables and they would be "stronger".
> 
> I'm only taking about results-the only thing that matters.



Hulk please tell me I'm not understanding you correctly that you do not know the answer to your question of" why? Time limitations on orals" ,,,,is that what you are asking?  
Orals are very toxic on the liver especially halo. That is why you don't do them for more than 4 to 6 weeks. Some other You can go a bit longer. Depends on the oral.


----------



## hulksmash

JAXNY said:


> Hulk please tell me I'm not understanding you correctly that you do not know the answer to your question of" why? Time limitations on orals" ,,,,is that what you are asking?
> Orals are very toxic on the liver especially halo. That is why you don't do them for more than 4 to 6 weeks. Some other You can go a bit longer. Depends on the oral.



No, I was answering "why" to:

If someone asked "why?" When I said orals are weaker result wise.

They are weaker in results due to their duration limits.


----------



## hulksmash

losieloos said:


> Hulksmash is the ian McCarthy of steroids.



No..I just could not understand how the hell you thought I was bashing tren..

There isn't even any negative words concerning tren in that post..


----------



## losieloos

Lol no just in general hulk lolol you're just like him


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Synergistic effects mean that when two or more compounds are combined, they're combined effect is greater than each of their individual effects combined. It doesn't necessarily just mean they work well together. They must work better together than each alone combined.


----------



## JAXNY

Seeker said:


> Here is my 02 regarding this remark. I'm not saying i'm correct, just my ASSesment.  Opinions are gonna vary but I feel that the combination of two to three compounds in moderate doses is much more effective and also guarantees a longer duration of effect than when only one compound is taken in a higher dosage.
> 
> With the correct combinations one will be able to obtain a synergetic  effect if one properly plans selecting compounds that have different influences on  the factors of strength, tissue growth, and recovery.
> 
> Synergy, which implies that two or more compounds are being used together will often compliment each other, providing a greater muscle gain than if used alone in higher doses.
> 
> 
> Of course there is a negative side too. With each compound added the liver has to work harder to to metabolize it and remove it from your body.


And you would be correct seeker. Just my 2 cents also. That's 4 cents. Think that makes good sense LOL


----------



## DreamChaser

Glad I read all 4 pages got some good laughs from this thread :32 (18):


----------



## Joliver

Seeker said:


> Here is my 02 regarding this remark. I'm not saying i'm correct, just my ASSesment.  Opinions are gonna vary but I feel that the combination of two to three compounds in moderate doses is much more effective and also guarantees a longer duration of effect than when only one compound is taken in a higher dosage.
> 
> With the correct combinations one will be able to obtain a synergetic  effect if one properly plans selecting compounds that have different influences on  the factors of strength, tissue growth, and recovery.
> 
> Synergy, which implies that two or more compounds are being used together will often compliment each other, providing a greater muscle gain than if used alone in higher doses.
> 
> 
> Of course there is a negative side too. With each compound added the liver has to work harder to to metabolize it and remove it from your body.



I can agree to the "synergistic" comment with the caveat that the drugs in question act in different pathways (AR and non-AR mediated).  I would rather take test only vs. 2 drugs that worked primarily via the AR mediated pathway. KISS--Keep It Simple for Seeker.  LOL....i am hilarious.  Simply hilarious.  

But, for my purposes in powerlifting, protein synthesis isn't always what i am looking toward, so I am test biased with other compounds thrown in for collagen support.  





Get Some said:


> Oral AAS hepatotoxicity is grossly overstated in most accounts. The liver is the best self-regenerating organ in your body, even better than your skin! There are plenty of studies around showing patients running Anadrol at a dose exceeding 150mg daily for an entire YEAR! Their liver values came back elevated, but not life-threatening. Now if you can imagine only running it for 6 weeks max rather than a year you can understand what I'm trying to say here.




The hepatotoxicity shouldn't be underestimated.  There is a reason that there are people waiting in line for a liver transplant.  I dont really like using the studies on pubmed because those people are not necessarily healthy and arent comparable to athletes. I will ride on my personal experience in saying that I have seen a lot of guys living on drol turn yellow and get glassy eyed.  It is also possible to block the chemical cascade that calls for liver regeneration.  Insulin plays an important role in that process.  HGH administration combined with heavy oral usage can be problematic because the potential insulin insensitivity associated with the HGH could essentially block the processes that repair the liver.  In fact, any AAS that decreases insulin sensitivity can inhibit liver repair.


----------



## Get Some

This tread has evolved into much more than I ever thought possible lol

I hate to have to keep coming back to this to dispute what has been said and layout the correct knowledge... makes me look like the bad guy 

So I'll leave you with this....

1+ gram of test a week is a great way to get huge if you are eating enough. Throwing in some deca will ONLY help, but yes it will be much harder on your heart and HPTA in the future. 

Running a low dose of test when cutting is highly beneficial because it reduces the amount of e2 you will encounter. NO matter what AI you run, you will always have some aromatization... unless of course you are running letro non-stop, which I do not recommend at all. 

Most people will never need to run more than 600-750mg of test to achieve their desired size and shape. Some people will need to run more than a gram because they don't respond as well. My body responds to 600mg of test like most people respond to a gram. However, I also experience more side effects at a lower dose than most... so it's a love/hate relationship. 

For bulking give me 450/450 of test/deca all day with an oral and for cutting I'll take 100/500 of test/tren to hit the sweet spot. It is much easier to cut up with less exogenous test. You will also run into more problems with prolactin if you run more test with tren because the when e2 levels are high, it creates the perfect environment for prolactin issues.


----------



## hulksmash

joliver said:


> I would rather take test only vs. 2 drugs that worked primarily via the AR mediated pathway. KISS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hepatotoxicity shouldn't be underestimated.  There is a reason that there are people waiting in line for a liver transplant.  I dont really like using the studies on pubmed because those people are not necessarily healthy and arent comparable to athletes. I will ride on my personal experience in saying that I have seen a lot of guys living on drol turn yellow and get glassy eyed.  It is also possible to block the chemical cascade that calls for liver regeneration.  Insulin plays an important role in that process.  HGH administration combined with heavy oral usage can be problematic because the potential insulin insensitivity associated with the HGH could essentially block the processes that repair the liver.  In fact, any AAS that decreases insulin sensitivity can inhibit liver repair.



I agree on the liver bit.

I can also agree with the first statement..but I'm sticking with just test now.

I love kicking the forum alive with my posts/threads..5 pages now!


----------



## Joliver

JAXNY said:


> Sorry FRANK test is not the safest compound. Deca has far less sides.  The debate on why not run 2 grams of test but run 2 grams of combined compounds is that many believe 2 grams of test isn't any more beneficial than 1 gram. So why over tax your body for nothing. 2 grams of 2 or 3 compounds you will at least get some benefits from.



I dont think that Frank was speaking to test being the "absolute" safest, but from a relative safety standpoint.  I am assuming this because we have had this convo several times.  Deca is safer from a health standpoint, but from a recovery standpoint, deca is one of the worst.  In fact, when test failed to achieve full depression of spermatogenesis in male birth control trials, progestins were added for their well known ability to suppress the process.  The only problem was that the process wasn't as "reversible" as was hoped.  So from a standalone point of view, few options exist outside of test that will allow for normal life function (specifically libido issues) and can still achieve the athletes goals.


----------



## Joliver

hulksmash said:


> I agree on the liver bit.
> 
> I can also agree with the first statement..but I'm sticking with just test now.
> 
> I love kicking the forum alive with my posts/threads..5 pages now!



Hulk, I am on the test train myself.  It is simple and effective.  In most cases, the sides are easily controllable.  I agree with your logic. 


I actually started a "increase the test" shit storm the other day.  Fun times.


----------



## Get Some

Androgens in general do not contribute to increased insulin sensitivity directly. This is why a lot of guys looking to get huge supplement with insulin itself. These people that turned yellow were on drol for 6 weeks or less? There has to be some other underlying factor there. Alcohol is far more the culprit in most of these cases. One drink of alcohol is pretty toxic to the liver and it takes full blown alcoholism before you need a liver transplant in most cases. You will likely end up with terrible stomach ulcers before you ever need to think about your liver being shot. 

I don't like that you brought HGH into the question to bolster your argument because we weren't talking about HGH. But in that case you would be correct. There is more danger in abusing HGH vs AAS all day long and I don't recommend HGH for anyone who doesn't compete.

Contrary to what most people think, collagen synthesis is actually HINDERED when exogenous testosterone is being used. Winstrol has a more pronounced effect on collagen synthesis than test. So, when looking to supplement for the added benefit of increases collagen synthesis, Deca and anavar are your best choices.



joliver said:


> I can agree to the "synergistic" comment with the caveat that the drugs in question act in different pathways (AR and non-AR mediated).  I would rather take test only vs. 2 drugs that worked primarily via the AR mediated pathway. KISS--Keep It Simple for Seeker.  LOL....i am hilarious.  Simply hilarious.
> 
> But, for my purposes in powerlifting, protein synthesis isn't always what i am looking toward, so I am test biased with other compounds thrown in for collagen support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hepatotoxicity shouldn't be underestimated.  There is a reason that there are people waiting in line for a liver transplant.  I dont really like using the studies on pubmed because those people are not necessarily healthy and arent comparable to athletes. I will ride on my personal experience in saying that I have seen a lot of guys living on drol turn yellow and get glassy eyed.  It is also possible to block the chemical cascade that calls for liver regeneration.  Insulin plays an important role in that process.  HGH administration combined with heavy oral usage can be problematic because the potential insulin insensitivity associated with the HGH could essentially block the processes that repair the liver.  In fact, any AAS that decreases insulin sensitivity can inhibit liver repair.


----------



## SuperBane

What the he'll is goin on in here?


----------



## Get Some

joliver said:


> I dont think that Frank was speaking to test being the "absolute" safest, but from a relative safety standpoint.  I am assuming this because we have had this convo several times.  *Deca is safer from a health standpoint*, but from a recovery standpoint, deca is one of the worst.  In fact, when test failed to achieve full depression of spermatogenesis in male birth control trials, progestins were added for their well known ability to suppress the process.  The only problem was that the process wasn't as "reversible" as was hoped.  So from a standalone point of view, few options exist outside of test that will allow for normal life function (specifically libido issues) and can still achieve the athletes goals.



nope... long term deca use is TERRIBLE for your heart and cardiovascular system, moreso than any other steroid (besides methyltrienolone, which was created by the devil to get you to like him and hate him at the same time).

Recovery from Deca and tren both suck balls.... my theory on why most people "never come off" is because they have done a cycle that included deca or tren at one point and after trying a few weeks of PCT they were like, "FU CK THIS SHIT!" I wish I could do that but I currently value my HPTA more than that now. After I'm done making babies and have my tubes tied I'll go on TRT... but even then I think I'll still blast and cruise for health reasons rather than just blast. 

BTW, every time I see dream chaser's avi I can't help but laugh because I picture her saying it lol


----------



## Get Some

SuperBane said:


> What the he'll is goin on in here?



hard core circle jerk using Testosterone as lubrication


----------



## SuperBane

Get Some said:


> hard core circle jerk using Testosterone as lubrication


 Get Some you know the rule: "Pics or Gtfo!"


----------



## f.r.a.n.k.

JAXNY said:


> Sorry FRANK test is not the safest compound. Deca has far less sides.  The debate on why not run 2 grams of test but run 2 grams of combined compounds is that many believe 2 grams of test isn't any more beneficial than 1 gram. So why over tax your body for nothing. 2 grams of 2 or 3 compounds you will at least get some benefits from.



Yes as Joli mentioned recovery wise. Also your statement is flawed about sides because EVERYONE'S sides vary. Some people experience little to NO sides from tren (well physical sides anyway). Does that make it safe? HELL NO. So no test is not THE safest AAS, but test is run with every cycle and there's no avoiding using test. It's effective, relatively cheap, and it's something your body uses every day. As long as you keep your sides at bay. The ones you don't see like lipid profile and bp.
AAS are all designed for the one main thing...build muscle. The reason we venture to others like deca or eq is for the added benefits such as an increase in synovial fluid from deca. 

Hulk, only problem I have with THAT high of a test dose with nothing else is the decrease in collagen synthesis. Connective tissue health is a must in this game. We often neglect that fact thus lead to injury. I would throw in something to aid with that.


----------



## TriniJuice

This thread is a 5star thread; some sciencey shxt went over my head (inner-city education) but this is what i've gathered

1) ROIDS ARE AWESOME...

2) I rep'd DC before just for his avi


----------



## Get Some

I'd like to meet these "people" and shake there hands because I don't believe they are human lol. Tren was clearly crafted by the devil himself as a way to try and combat Chuck Norris... it failed miserably



f.r.a.n.k. said:


> Yes as Joli mentioned recovery wise. Also your statement is flawed about sides because EVERYONE'S sides vary. *Some people experience little to NO sides from tren *(well physical sides anyway). Does that make it safe? HELL NO. So no test is not THE safest AAS, but test is run with every cycle and there's no avoiding using test. It's effective, relatively cheap, and it's something your body uses every day. As long as you keep your sides at bay. The ones you don't see like lipid profile and bp.
> AAS are all designed for the one main thing...build muscle. The reason we venture to others like deca or eq is for the added benefits such as an increase in synovial fluid from deca.
> 
> Hulk, only problem I have with THAT high of a test dose with nothing else is the decrease in collagen synthesis. Connective tissue health is a must in this game. We often neglect that fact thus lead to injury. I would throw in something to aid with that.


----------



## losieloos

We need pfm's opinion on this.


----------



## f.r.a.n.k.

Get Some said:


> I'd like to meet these "people" and shake there hands because I don't believe they are human lol. Tren was clearly crafted by the devil himself as a way to try and combat Chuck Norris... it failed miserably



There's 3 I know personally. No acne. No lethargy. They feel great. Worst side they have are night sweats and nightmares.


----------



## Seeker

joliver said:


> I can agree to the "synergistic" comment with the caveat that the drugs in question act in different pathways (AR and non-AR mediated).  I would rather take test only vs. 2 drugs that worked primarily via the AR mediated pathway. KISS--Keep It Simple for Seeker.  LOL....i am hilarious.  Simply hilarious.
> 
> But, for my purposes in powerlifting, protein synthesis isn't always what i am looking toward, so I am test biased with other compounds thrown in for collagen support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hepatotoxicity shouldn't be underestimated.  There is a reason that there are people waiting in line for a liver transplant.  I dont really like using the studies on pubmed because those people are not necessarily healthy and arent comparable to athletes. I will ride on my personal experience in saying that I have seen a lot of guys living on drol turn yellow and get glassy eyed.  It is also possible to block the chemical cascade that calls for liver regeneration.  Insulin plays an important role in that process.  HGH administration combined with heavy oral usage can be problematic because the potential insulin insensitivity associated with the HGH could essentially block the processes that repair the liver.  In fact, any AAS that decreases insulin sensitivity can inhibit liver repair.



Lies! You pose in the mirror, I saw the picture.


----------



## DreamChaser

TriniJuice said:


> This thread is a 5star thread; some sciencey shxt went over my head (inner-city education) but this is what i've gathered
> 
> 1) ROIDS ARE AWESOME...
> 
> 2) I rep'd DC before just for his avi



haha appreciate it bro


----------



## hulksmash

Just in case- 

I haven't advocated big doses of gear.

They are a must for my goals, however.

I never see EQ thrown around much, but Arabic bb'ers use that, rather than test, as a base.


----------



## SuperBane

Isn't EQ actually one of the better hormones for collagen synthesis? 

Such an unfavorable compound on the boards and in the US nowadays.

The possible side effect of anxiety is the only thing that has me wary.

I will never forget the granite type look of a friend who ran eq and test. Bodyfat was not sub ten percent. That look was crazy.

I am not one to be judgemental of one's doses but at two grams of gear .... Makes me question ones source or else dedication to other aspects of this game such as diet and training techniques.

Not to say this applies to you or anyone else on this board hulk. Local to me there are plenty of guys young enough to not be running gear running doses that seem absurd to me. With sole intent on looking like zyzz. 

If days of past glory pro's were indeed running way lower dosages getting that big? What have we lost today? Dedication? Passion? Commitment? Understanding? Better raws for our sources? 

Aside from that.
Please read the quote in my signature.


----------



## hulksmash

No one ran low doses back in the glory days.

They all lie and took as much as was needed to win.

Granted there was a stopping point, but since most counted by CC's and not mg's back then, it's not illogical to say they at least tried 2-3g of gear for extended periods, especially people like Sergio Oliva.


----------



## GreatGunz

joliver said:


> That isnt necessarily true.  Each compound will have its own hangups, but what Hulk is trying to say is that most people dont rally think about their use in aggregate.  You will see that someone says:  500mgs test e, 400mgs tren, 350mg masteron, 50mgs of dbol per day.
> 
> In aggregate, they are taking 1.6 grams of gear with 350mg coming from orals.  Hulk isnt much beyond that and doesn't have to watch his liver as closely.
> 
> Is it safe?  None of this is completely safe.  Watch your bp and blood profiles, and you will be better off.  But no safety is guaranteed in this business.



Exactly my cycles are always total intake milligrams for the week, Like the ever popular Test E 750 a wk + Tren E 750 a week there's a gram and a half.
Factor in a front load of X amount your over 2 grams.


----------



## gymrat827

good thread....good reads


----------



## DF

I have done over 2g in total gear & it felt pretty damn good.  It's not something I would run long term though. 1.2g test, 800mg deca, 400mg Mast plus 50mg Dbol first 6 weeks.  So, what hulk is talking about is not outrageous.


----------



## Joliver

Get Some said:


> These people that turned yellow were on drol for 6 weeks or less? There has to be some other underlying factor there. Alcohol is far more the culprit in most of these cases. One drink of alcohol is pretty toxic to the liver and it takes full blown alcoholism before you need a liver transplant in most cases.
> 
> I don't like that you brought HGH into the question to bolster your argument because we weren't talking about HGH. But in that case you would be correct. There is more danger in abusing HGH vs AAS all day long and I don't recommend HGH for anyone who doesn't compete.
> 
> Contrary to what most people think, collagen synthesis is actually HINDERED when exogenous testosterone is being used. Winstrol has a more pronounced effect on collagen synthesis than test. So, when looking to supplement for the added benefit of increases collagen synthesis, Deca and anavar are your best choices.



I dont know many competitive PLers that strictly adhere to the 6 week limit.  But I have definitely seen jaundice in less than 4 months.  I dont want to speculate about possible aggrevating factors.

I want to think about it more constructively than bolstering an argument.  This is a discussion.  Lots of guys take compounds (hgh being one of them) that do alter glucose metabolism.  They do need to know that in spite of the claim that high dose orals can/have been taken for up to a year, if they are insensitive, they could potentially limit the liver's ability to regenerate.  That said, I dont believe anyone is foolish enough to run 150mgs of anadrol for a year and expect anything but bad to come of it.  But having this information is important.  

I do believe that the tides have changed and most people know that test administration does impair collagen synthesis.  But regardless of the compounds that you add, you wont find cross-linked collagen synthesis occurring in the presence of supraphysiological doses of test.


----------



## JAXNY

DF said:


> I have done over 2g in total gear & it felt pretty damn good.  It's not something I would run long term though. 1.2g test, 800mg deca, 400mg Mast plus 50mg Dbol first 6 weeks.  So, what hulk is talking about is not outrageous.



It's not the total gram amount of AAS that is outrageous DF.  2 grams or so of 2 or 3 compounds like you just mentioned I believe is fine and is similar to exactly what I'm doing now. I believe it's more beneficial to run multiple compounds. What the debate of being ridiculous is running 2 or 3 grams of the same compound. I don't think 2 grams and certainly not 3 grams of test is any more beneficial then around 1 gram. There fore your risk starts out weighing the benefit. But its a debatable subject.


----------



## JAXNY

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> Yes as Joli mentioned recovery wise. Also your statement is flawed about sides because EVERYONE'S sides vary. Some people experience little to NO sides from tren (well physical sides anyway). Does that make it safe? HELL NO. So no test is not THE safest AAS, but test is run with every cycle and there's no avoiding using test. It's effective, relatively cheap, and it's something your body uses every day. As long as you keep your sides at bay. The ones you don't see like lipid profile and bp.
> AAS are all designed for the one main thing...build muscle. The reason we venture to others like deca or eq is for the added benefits such as an increase in synovial fluid from deca.
> 
> Hulk, only problem I have with THAT high of a test dose with nothing else is the decrease in collagen synthesis. Connective tissue health is a must in this game. We often neglect that fact thus lead to injury. I would throw in something to aid with that.



Well I wouldn't  say my statement is flawed. You were not clear wether you were referring to the sides of test or the recovery. Sure everyone reacts differently to sides. I for one never have an acne issue with no matter what or how much I take. Nonetheless deca produces less sides then test. No matter how it effects each individual person.


----------



## hulksmash

JAXNY said:


> It's not the total gram amount of AAS that is outrageous DF.  2 grams or so of 2 or 3 compounds like you just mentioned I believe is fine and is similar to exactly what I'm doing now. I believe it's more beneficial to run multiple compounds. What the debate of being ridiculous is running 2 or 3 grams of the same compound. I don't think 2 grams and certainly not 3 grams of test is any more beneficial then around 1 gram. There fore your risk starts out weighing the benefit. But its a debatable subject.



NOT directed to you JAXNY-This reminds me of another point that will rile people up here.

There are some people where there IS a difference with 1g versus 2g.

The majority say they see no difference.

The majority has NEVER tried 2g of test vs 1g of test.

The ones who DO see a positive difference between 1g vs. 2g are THE ONES WHO MAKE IT IN COMPETITIVE BODYBUILDING!

For people who never see a difference, they stand no chance in competitive bodybuilding.

I did/do see a big difference. I'm not going to compete. I do have a comp-level goal, however.


----------



## Get Some

I would venture a guess along the lines of what hulk says... anyone who does not see a difference between 1 and 2 grams of test weekly is not consuming enough food to make a difference! Or, they simply haven't run 2g a week and are speculating


----------



## PillarofBalance

Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?


----------



## stonetag

Hell this thread is better reading than Hunger Games, go on...........


----------



## TriniJuice

PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?



I guess this is where the term "Pin Cushion" comes into play


----------



## JAXNY

PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?



I kind of do. I stated it in my first post in this thread. At 3 grams you would be at 12-15cc a week.  Even 2 grams of test at 200mg you're at 10cc a week. Its a lot of fluid.


----------



## NbleSavage

JAXNY said:


> I kind of do. I stated it in my first post in this thread. At 3 grams you would be at 12-15cc a week.  Even 2 grams of test at 200mg you're at 10cc a week. Its a lot of fluid.



Lucky for me I believe in site-specific enhancement and inject directly into my bits & pieces.


----------



## #TheMatrix




----------



## TheLupinator

So what I've gathered from these 7 pages is - 2grams of test aint that bad. 100mg daily Drol for 4months ain't that bad. Tren is synergistic with test. Mast is my favorite compound....


.....I think thats my next blast!!! thanks fellas


----------



## JAXNY

TheLupinator said:


> So what I've gathered from these 7 pages is - 2grams of test aint that bad. 100mg daily Drol for 4months ain't that bad. Tren is synergistic with test. Mast is my favorite compound....
> 
> 
> .....I think thats my next blast!!! thanks fellas



I dint know where you got 100mg of anadrol  for 4 months ain't that bad. But good luck with that.....make sure you prep well for that cycle. You'll need your AAS your AI and one liver donor.


----------



## Malevolence

There was a porn star guy that died a while back doing the same thing. ****er croaked from running too much gear.  Can't remember his name though


----------



## JAXNY

Malevolence said:


> There was a porn star guy that died a while back doing the same thing. ****er croaked from running too much gear.  Can't remember his name though



A lot of people have crooked  from doing to much gear. Some have had their hearts explode.


----------



## losieloos

Malevolence said:


> There was a porn star guy that died a while back doing the same thing. ****er croaked from running too much gear.  Can't remember his name though



I like Peter North.


----------



## TheLupinator

Get Some said:


> Oral AAS hepatotoxicity is grossly overstated in most accounts. The liver is the best self-regenerating organ in your body, even better than your skin! There are plenty of studies around showing patients running Anadrol at a dose exceeding 150mg daily for an entire YEAR! Their liver values came back elevated, but not life-threatening. Now if you can imagine only running it for 6 weeks max rather than a year you can understand what I'm trying to say here.




Read it and weep Jax!!!... obviously fcking around. This thread is full of "the best ways to push the limit"... pure gold


Personally, if I started a blast at 1 gram of test I prolly wouldn't be like "ya more test"... rather add tren, mast, drol - You know, the fun shit


----------



## ECKSRATED

I wish i had the balls to run 2 gs of test. I'd ****ing get enormous. My wife's bitching right now I'm getting too big on 150mgs a week. Haha


----------



## Joliver

PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?



Volume is a super bitch if you are running short esters that are lower concentrations.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

joliver said:


> Volume is a super bitch if you are running short esters that are lower concentrations.



Not of you plan on hooking up an IV line like me!!!


----------



## RJ

PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?



i have ran some pretty big doses back when i was in competition mode. I wanted to be big and i wasn't afraid to be a guinea pig (or shove one in my ass occasionally). POB, when i ran big doses i always made high concentration gear (no less than 400mg/ml). Yet another win for LE gear. mlp i also loaded up on Sunday and did all my volume then. made things much easier, especially considering you can dump up to 5cc into the VG and half lives are negligibly affected with LE gear within a week. 

As for relying on gear, i think, because i have said that for years, that it gets taken out of context alot. When i say relying on gear, i mean having shitty or at best poor training methods and a so so diet. How Hulk stayed on all that gear eating once a day is amazing in itself. What's funny is in a way we all 'rely' on gear. I saw a video of myself a few months ago from back when i was my biggest and I couldn't believe what i looked like. I moved like a robot. It was bizarre. I still consider myself pretty big, but it was weird to see myself on video the size i was. Now i was, and do still now, training like an animal, and eating huge amounts of food, but i never could have gotten that big without 'relying' on gear. 

Would i ever do it now? Nope. But i'm 40, happy as hell with my physique, and have no reason to. I also see what 100/100 Test/Tren E does for me without really eating a whole lot nowadays. So its all about, as hulk stated several times, your individual goals. And I think everyone knows, or at least should know, that no one is the same in this game. I have seen guys who train and eat like i did, do larger amounts of gear and get nowhere near the results i did. Homeostasis is also a big ego killer that most guys don't even know of. Our bodies don't wanna be gigantic. Plain and simple. 

Anyway, hulk, good luck man. You know you may or may not reach your goals and have to re-evaluate. No one here can change that or influence you until you want. So be safe, get your full panels done regularly, and please don't ever eat 1 meal a day again. Unless its a pizza. mlp


----------



## Joliver

Docd187123 said:


> Not of you plan on hooking up an IV line like me!!!



I am taking mine back to cattle implant form.  Beat that....


----------



## DocDePanda187123

joliver said:


> I am taking mine back to cattle implant form.  Beat that....



I'm going to sprinkle 6grams of test powder on every meal I eat!


----------



## TheLupinator

Docd187123 said:


> I'm going to sprinkle 6grams of test powder on every meal I eat!




Break open Adrol capsules and chase the dragon lol look that one up. Bundy will know what I mean


----------



## DocDePanda187123

TheLupinator said:


> Break open Adrol capsules and chase the dragon lol look that one up. Bundy will know what I mean



I'm
Not sure I want to enter in adrol, dragon, and Brother Bundy in the same search. I'm actually quite scared of doing so lol


----------



## #TheMatrix

I wouldn't count what hulk was eating a meal...
Snacks are not meals.

Hulk. Im glad your doing better. Your struggles were bad. But the decisions you made were admirable with your life issues.


----------



## Azog

How the hell did you limit yourself to that few calories even in 1 meal a day?! If I could only manage to eat once a day, I sure as **** would throw down more than 1500cals. Pizza and ice cream bitch . Also, the more gear I run, the hungrier I get. How the shit did you not eat everything in sight on 2g's of test? Hulk you really gotta learn how to eat man. Put those 2g's of test to work.


----------



## Rip

One meal per day is the worst thing you can do if you're interested in having a decent looking body, whether you're on steroids or natural. You must be protein deficient and you are probably surviving on much less calories than the amount required for a sedentary human being to sustain life. 
I eat every 3 hours until i go to bed.
People who say they eat one meal/day are usually fat. Eating every 3 hours keeps the metabolism high and supports growth and maintenance of lean muscle mass. 
If you are eating one meal, you would need to ingest at least enough protein gram to equal your body weight. 
With the amount of TEST you are doing, you could probably eat much more protein.


----------



## Rip

No, but it doesn't make sense if you don't know how a bodybuilder needs to eat. Nitrogen retention isn't going to happen without enough protein. What about catabolism? Steroids only do so much. I think it's more important to learn about proper training and diet, and to build a decent foundation of muscle, before you ever touching a drug.


PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Rip said:


> One meal per day is the worst thing you can do if you're interested in having a decent looking body, whether you're on steroids or natural. You must be protein deficient and you are probably surviving on much less calories than the amount required for a sedentary human being to sustain life.
> I eat every 3 hours until i go to bed.
> People who say they eat one meal/day are usually fat. Eating every 3 hours keeps the metabolism high and supports growth and maintenance of lean muscle mass.
> If you are eating one meal, you would need to ingest at least enough protein gram to equal your body weight.
> With the amount of TEST you are doing, you could probably eat much more protein.



Dietary induced metabolic changes are based on food volume and macro composition not meal frequency. Eating twice a day or 8 times a day will have the same metabolic effect provided the macros are the same. 

Muscle growth or maintenance is based on protein and calorie intake not meal frequency. If ppl who eat once a day are usually fat (which is a stretch to begin with), then it's due to lack of exercise, poor dietary choices (completely unrelated to meal frequency, or some medical issue). This is a poor example and does nothing to bolster your argument. 

Nitrogen retention is a mediocre measure of LBM changes. You could be in a negative nitrogen balance and be gaining muscle and studies showing a positive nitrogen balance with concomitant muscle loss. It is notorious for overestimating muscle protein status.


----------



## JAXNY

Well I have to say this has been one of the most enjoyable threads. Great thread Hulk.


----------



## NbleSavage

Agreed, great thread!  Am enjoying this


----------



## woodswise

Get Some said:


> I'd like to meet these "people" and shake there hands because I don't believe they are human lol. Tren was clearly crafted by the devil himself as a way to try and combat Chuck Norris... it failed miserably



Bro I'm currently running Test E at 600mg/w and Tren E at 400mg/w and the only sides I am getting are occasional restless nights and sweating (daytime and nighttime).  Also, Mr. Happy is a little bit soft sometimes, but I am still getting huge nighttime boners and getting off a few times a week.


----------



## woodswise

Hulksmash:

Thanks for starting the thread.  You have answered my questions and then some. . . 

But no one is talking about the other side of the coin:  long term blasting at moderate levels.  This is what I am doing.  I have been blasting continuously since last August and am still making gains and feel great.  My blood pressure recently measured better than when I was in college 25 years ago and running cross country.

My blast between August and December 31, was Test E at 500mg/w and Deca at 400mg/w, with Adrol at 50mg/d the first four weeks.  Then in January I switched to Test E at 600mg/w and Tren E at 400mg/w and I feel godlike.  

What my trainer says is so long as the sides are under control and I am making gains, I can stay on without a huge risk (obviously I know there are long term risks that are probably increased, but the short term ones should be under control).  He says after you are on for a while (a month or two) your body reaches homeostasis with the compounds and you need less AI or Serms because your body is metabolizing the AAS and clearing it out more efficiently than initially.  Once you get past the initial instability of a blast or change in compounds you will see weight gain slow as your body slows the gain of water and glycogen.  From there on out the gains are mostly muscle and fat.  So I have come to believe that in gaining 1 to 2 lbs of weight per week, I am actually gaining 1 to 2 lbs of muscle per month.  And because I have seen this continue so long as I have continued blasting, I have started to think guys who cycle on and off and increase their dosages after the first 8 weeks or change compounds, might be chasing the side effects and not the muscle gains.  So for them they are probably being counter productive in cycling on and off and may be doing more damage to themselves than just staying on for longer cycles at moderate levels.

However, for those who are cycling to protect your HPTA and natural hormone production, cycling on and off seems to me like a good and appropriate choice.  

So what do you guys think about long term blasting at moderate levels?


----------



## DocDePanda187123

You'd actually need more AI as time went on not less. I did bloods wk10 and my E2 levels were sky high from bad adex. If the body got better at metabolizing and excreting the hormones my levels would not have been so high and also it would change the half life of the compound itself when you think about it.


----------



## hulksmash

Pain medication+being depressed pretty much kept me to 1 meal a day.

There were some days all I had was chips or candy the whole day...

Now I'm out of that valley and the g/f is basically force feeding me home cooked meals-she said she's "ending the 1 meal bullshit for good".  My stomach is getting able to hold more food now. 

Luckily, I ate enough calories with the gear to at least not lose significant lbm. I did lose a lot of fat, though. Dropped 20bs from December to April.

Glad everything is great now and I can put on size.


----------



## hulksmash

Rip said:


> No, but it doesn't make sense if you don't know how a bodybuilder needs to eat. Nitrogen retention isn't going to happen without enough protein. What about catabolism? Steroids only do so much. I think it's more important to learn about proper training and diet, and to build a decent foundation of muscle, before you ever touching a drug.



AAS does a lot more than you think.

I still grew (although very little) while being so low in calories.

Calories are the only thing that matter, given you eat enough protein.

Gear increases nitrogen retention and the amount of protein needed is way overblown. Thank the supp companies for that.


----------



## hulksmash

Docd187123 said:


> You'd actually need more AI as time went on not less. I did bloods wk10 and my E2 levels were sky high from bad adex. If the body got better at metabolizing and excreting the hormones my levels would not have been so high and also it would change the half life of the compound itself when you think about it.



This reminds me-

Forgot to state I've been on Letro 2.5mg EOD/e2d since December as well.


----------



## woodswise

Docd187123 said:


> You'd actually need more AI as time went on not less. I did bloods wk10 and my E2 levels were sky high from bad adex. If the body got better at metabolizing and excreting the hormones my levels would not have been so high and also it would change the half life of the compound itself when you think about it.



I would argue if my theory is right, the initial 10 to 12 weeks is when your body is still adapting, so you have not reached equilibrium yet.  It is not until you reach equilibrium that your body is metabolizing and excreting the AAS and its derivatives (inlcuding E2) and you need less AI / Sarms.


----------



## DieYoungStrong

This thread has made me think about all kinds of stuff. Good thread.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

woodswise said:


> I would argue if my theory is right, the initial 10 to 12 weeks is when your body is still adapting, so you have not reached equilibrium yet.  It is not until you reach equilibrium that your body is metabolizing and excreting the AAS and its derivatives (inlcuding E3) and you need less AI / Sarms.



I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here WW. Steady state concentrations are achieved before wks 10-12. But that still does t mean you'll need less AI's or SERM's. What about those on TRT who have been in AAS for years upon years, do they need less AI than they did originally? As far as I know, the only way they've been able to reduce AI dosages is by injecting more frequently, doing subq vs IM, or by using other compounds which would help excrete E2 faster. E3 has very little to do with males. E3 is something females need to be concerned about not us males.


----------



## AlphaD

I have not posted in this thread, because I do not know enough too take a stance,  but I have followed it intently, and it has been an informative, thought -provoking thread..... Glad you guys are chiming in because I am learning alot.


----------



## woodswise

Sorry my bad Doc.  I meant E3.  And though I have a basic understanding of what we are talking about -- (i.e. I have a BS in plant biology, with some basic knowledge about animals) that mistake shows how new I am at the terminology.  

What I am suggesting, but don't know if it is true, is you body reaches equilibrium and natural processes result in a new normal for your body when you stay on for long periods.  I don't know if someone can go without AI / Sarms or significantly reduce the levels of those that you use.  But my experience suggests maybe you can.  

I have never used AI's since the beginning two years ago, and am only using Nolva, a Sarm.  I was also using Caber since I started Tren in January but about three to four weeks ago, cut that out entirely and am not experiencing significant sides from the Tren.  Yes I am sweating and having a little restless sleep, but those are manageable.  

I have started to think long term blasting could potentially be less stressful for your body than cycling on and off, mostly because the equilibrium is a better state to be in, than the constant fluctuation in hormones and side effects.

I realize studies would need to be done, and that I am experimenting on myself.  But I believe if I watch the side effects and they stay under control, the risk is not unreasonable.  



Docd187123 said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here WW. Steady state concentrations are achieved before wks 10-12. But that still does t mean you'll need less AI's or SERM's. What about those on TRT who have been in AAS for years upon years, do they need less AI than they did originally? As far as I know, the only way they've been able to reduce AI dosages is by injecting more frequently, doing subq vs IM, or by using other compounds which would help excrete E2 faster. E3 has very little to do with males. E3 is something females need to be concerned about not us males.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

woodswise said:


> Sorry my bad Doc.  I meant E3.  And though I have a basic understanding of what we are talking about -- (i.e. I have a BS in plant biology, with some basic knowledge about animals) that mistake shows how new I am at the terminology.
> 
> What I am suggesting, but don't know if it is true, is you body reaches equilibrium and natural processes result in a new normal for your body when you stay on for long periods.  I don't know if someone can go without AI / Sarms.  But my experience suggests maybe you can.
> 
> I have never used AI's since the beginning two years ago, and am only using Nolva, a Sarm.  I was also using Caber since I started Tren in January but about three to four weeks ago, cut that out entirely and am not experiencing significant sides from the Tren.  Yes I am sweating and having a little restless sleep, but those are manageable.
> 
> I have started to think long term blasting could potentially be less stressful for your body than cycling on and off, mostly because the equilibrium is a better state to be in, than the constant fluctuation in hormones and side effects.
> 
> I realize studies would need to be done, and that I am experimenting on myself.  But I believe if I watch the side effects and they stay under control, the risk is not unreasonable.



I remember your background WW and I appreciate you taking the time to explain yourself brother. You're a great person to have on board for this topic. 


My first question to you would be, do you have blood work showing you don't need an AI or caber? Maybe you never needed the caber to begin with. There's some compelling evidence suggesting it's not tren that raises PRL but ado arising compounds. Studies were done in sheep, I know lol, where tren didn't raise PRL. Other studies on humans showing test and other aromatizing compounds did raise PRL. 

Many E2 sides can go undetected for a while. That's why I ask if you did bloods. Using a SERM may mask the effects but not stop them from happening as E2 could still be elevated.


----------



## TheLupinator

^^this can be tested.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

TheLupinator said:


> ^^this can be tested.



You happen to know anyone who is testing it?


----------



## hulksmash

I went forever without AIs (still have never used a serm).

No side effects save for bloat.

Jumped on letro and it dried me out. Haven't been off of it in months, nor do I want to be.


----------



## JAXNY

hulksmash said:


> Pain medication+being depressed pretty much kept me to 1 meal a day.
> 
> There were some days all I had was chips or candy the whole day...
> 
> Now I'm out of that valley and the g/f is basically force feeding me home cooked meals-she said she's "ending the 1 meal bullshit for good".  My stomach is getting able to hold more food now.
> 
> Luckily, I ate enough calories with the gear to at least not lose significant lbm. I did lose a lot of fat, though. Dropped 20bs from December to April.
> 
> Glad everything is great now and I can put on size.


What happened to you that you were on pain meds and what kind was killing your appetite if you don't mind telling us. Btw good to see you're past it.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Easy on them pain meds hulk. Things ****ed my life up for 3 years man. Was down to 165 lbs!!!!


----------



## Rip

Sorry you went through that. I went through a period like that, with a medical condition, where i couldn't eat and had no desire to eat. I wasn't on steroids and I couldn't train at all. During that period, I think the only thing that kept from becoming malnourished was that I made sure i drank Met RX shakes throughout the day.


----------



## Rip

I don't have time, but I disagree and that's ok. No disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion. 




Docd187123 said:


> Dietary induced metabolic changes are based on food volume and macro composition not meal frequency. Eating twice a day or 8 times a day will have the same metabolic effect provided the macros are the same.
> 
> Muscle growth or maintenance is based on protein and calorie intake not meal frequency. If ppl who eat once a day are usually fat (which is a stretch to begin with), then it's due to lack of exercise, poor dietary choices (completely unrelated to meal frequency, or some medical issue). This is a poor example and does nothing to bolster your argument.
> 
> Nitrogen retention is a mediocre measure of LBM changes. You could be in a negative nitrogen balance and be gaining muscle and studies showing a positive nitrogen balance with concomitant muscle loss. It is notorious for overestimating muscle protein status.


----------



## hulksmash

JAXNY said:


> What happened to you that you were on pain meds and what kind was killing your appetite if you don't mind telling us. Btw good to see you're past it.



Bulged disc at l4/l5+degeneration+sciatica.

Hydrocodone tramadol, morphine, oxycodone are the types that have been used. Really any opioid kills my appetite.

Divorce+hotel living+bad back=not a fun time.

Honestly gear helped me through/feel better since I didnt waste away and still looked great in the mirror.


----------



## hulksmash

ECKSRATED said:


> Easy on them pain meds hulk. Things ****ed my life up for 3 years man. Was down to 165 lbs!!!!



They certainly will if you abuse them! Too many people fall to that path.


----------



## JAXNY

I'm surprised they gave you so many different types. Sorry to hear about the wife. 
What was done to resolve the disc issue. That's a common injury.


----------



## f.r.a.n.k.

hulksmash said:


> They certainly will if you abuse them! Too many people fall to that path.



And Colorado is ahead of everyone else on avoiding that issue


----------



## TheLupinator

Close family was scripted tramadol, morphine, hydros, oxy, dilaudid, and eventually fentanyl... they measure fentanyl in mcg not mg...

When doctors throw that shit at you, you know you don't have much longer


----------



## RJ

How are your lipids taking that much Letro for so long?


----------



## woodswise

Doc:

I do not have blood work to back up my thinking.  I only monitor my blood pressure on a regular basis.  At my annual check up in a the next couple of months, I am going to have my doctor test for liver and kidney function and basic things like that.


----------



## Seeker

What concerns me and bothers me the most is when I hear people say " oh I get very little sides and I've been juicing 700 mgs of whatever forc6 months and I have no sides, oh but I haven't done any blood work" wtf!??!! Let me tell you guys something, the cosmetic sides you say you don't get don't mean shit, it's the blood work that shows you what you REALLY need to know and be concerned about!


----------



## woodswise

Seeker said:


> What concerns me and bothers me the most is when I hear people say " oh I get very little sides and I've been juicing 700 mgs of whatever forc6 months and I have no sides, oh but I haven't done any blood work" wtf!??!! Let me tell you guys something, the cosmetic sides you say you don't get don't mean shit, it's the blood work that shows you what you REALLY need to know and be concerned about!



Just because I haven't done any, you think I don't realize that blood work is important?

I have never said it is not important.  I just don't have a lot of time in my life for it.  Plus I am uncertain what my doctor is going to be testing for and I don't want her to discover I am on AAS, so I am nervous about getting it done.  That is why I haven't to date.  But I promised myself and I promise you guys, the next checkup with my doctor, I'll arrange bloodwork to see my cholesterol, liver function and renal function.

Does that make you feel better Seeks?


----------



## DocDePanda187123

woodswise said:


> Just because I haven't done any, you think I don't realize that blood work is important?
> 
> I have never said it is not important.  I just don't have a lot of time in my life for it.  Plus I am uncertain what my doctor is going to be testing for and I don't want her to discover I am on AAS, so I am nervous about getting it done.  That is why I haven't to date.  But I promised myself and I promise you guys, the next checkup with my doctor, I'll arrange bloodwork to see my cholesterol, liver function and renal function.
> 
> Does that make you feel better Seeks?



You can always have the blood work done privately. That way your doctor won't find out about any abnormal results and it's also cheaper a lot of times. 

Also consider getting a Complete Blood Count (CBC), a metabolic panel, glucose, and the others you've mentioned.


----------



## Get Some

YOu can even request a female hormone panel (because it's far cheaper than male) and get the exact numbers back through mail for total testosterone, cholesterol, etc


----------



## Seeker

woodswise said:


> Just because I haven't done any, you think I don't realize that blood work is important?
> 
> I have never said it is not important.  I just don't have a lot of time in my life for it.  Plus I am uncertain what my doctor is going to be testing for and I don't want her to discover I am on AAS, so I am nervous about getting it done.  That is why I haven't to date.  But I promised myself and I promise you guys, the next checkup with my doctor, I'll arrange bloodwork to see my cholesterol, liver function and renal function.
> 
> Does that make you feel better Seeks?



woods i may of come off rough but I have been seeing a lot of this lately, and believe it or not I care.. .. Thats the truth.


----------



## Jayjay82

Listen to what everyone is saying if you have time to use aas then you should have time to get your bloods done be safe not stupid


----------



## woodswise

Jayjay82 said:


> Listen to what everyone is saying if you have time to use aas then you should have time to get your bloods done be safe not stupid



The problem has been as much psychological as it is due to being extremely busy.  A.  I feel amazing and my blood pressure is amazing and I am having almost no sides.  B.  I don't know what my doctor will find, or how I will answer her questions when she does.  C.  I don't know the first thing about finding a private lab or how I will have bloodwork done, and how they will respond when I ask for a female panel, etc.  And what will they do when they find my Test levels elevated through the roof???  

Put all that together and you have . . . stupid?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I rather think I am doing great and just need the bloodwork to confirm I am doing as well as I feel, and to be sure something is not wrong that maybe I am not detecting.  So yes I need to have it, but I also need to be comfortable doing it when I go ahead with it.

So instead of telling me I am stupid (cause that's just going to piss me off) maybe you can talk about your own experience with blood work so I can hear how it worked for you and maybe be influenced to do the right thing.

I guess with that I'll go start a new thread. . .


----------



## woodswise

Here's the thing that gets me about this thread.

I am a big boy.  I researched and made peace with the risks associated with AAS before I started.  I don't have kids and won't ever have any.  I am 48 years old and am making amazing progress.  Yes I should have blood work done, but if I kicked the bucket tomorrow, I would look down from the pearly gates (or more likely the flaming gates) and feel like I had the two most amazing years of my life since I started AAS.  Truthfully my biggest worry is not about my health, it is about the possibility of getting caught and losing my career.

Most of us on here have accepted the risks of AAS after learning what they are.  I moreso than many, because I have a biology degree and understand the science and I have a law degree and understand the legal risks.

I appreciate and welcome the honest and fair recommendations that I have blood work done.

But I do not appreciate anyone acting like they have a right to judge me for the decisions I have made freely and with an accurate understanding of the risks I am taking.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Wood Uve been a member her for 2 years and don't know how to find a private lab that does blood tests? It's simple. If u don't live in ny.


----------



## RJ

woodswise said:


> C.  I don't know the first thing about finding a private lab or how I will have bloodwork done, and how they will respond when I ask for a female panel, etc.  And what will they do when they find my Test levels elevated through the roof???



www.privatemdlabs.com

super cheap. click on tests. than look for hormone panel for females. cost $62.99 and if you use this code (dg54jhx9) you get 15% off for the rest  of the month. They send you requisition papers within an hour usually and you get your results back in less than 24hours. You just have to pick a lab near your house to do the labs. You fast the night before and go first thing in the AM (thats what i do anyway). 

I would do a lipid panel as well. all of that cost less than $100 and no doctor sees it or will question any of the info on it. So this is something i would do in lieu of getting your doc to do it. This way there is no record. Good luck.


----------



## Jayjay82

Do you have labcorp, quest most labs will do a blood test without an rx I am not calling you stupid just telling you not to be stupid and play it smart trust me there are plenty of ways to get bloods done privately look in your yellow pages and find a lab just know what you are getting into before it's to late their are plenty of people that have serious problems from not checking their bloods you can cause some serious damage and not even know it until it's too late


----------



## ECKSRATED

And I've never had bloods done in almost 5 years of taking aas. I'm the last to judge. But if I lived in a different state then I would have had bloods done frequently.


----------



## RJ

ECKSRATED said:


> Wood Uve been a member her for 2 years and don't know how to find a private lab that does blood tests? It's simple. If u don't live in ny.



Uve? Really? this country has officially gone to hell. mlp


----------



## woodswise

ECKSRATED said:


> Wood Uve been a member her for 2 years and don't know how to find a private lab that does blood tests? It's simple. If u don't live in ny.



My state does not allow them either.  But I live near a state that does, so I can drive there in about 30 minutes, if there are labs in the area (still have to figure that out).


----------



## woodswise

Can't find labcorp or private md labs anywhere within 2 hours of here.  So I guess I'm stuck with my family physician.


----------



## ECKSRATED

RJ said:


> Uve? Really? this country has officially gone to hell. mlp



Haha I've been using "uve" for 5 years on the forum and now ur just realizing it? Mlp


----------



## Azog

RJ said:


> Uve? Really? this country has officially gone to hell. mlp



Grammar Police checking in. Seriously?


----------



## goodfella

ECKSRATED said:


> That right there is testament to you relying on the gear to stay lean. Now I don't know what u had goin on in your personal life that u couldn't eat and stuff but now that u say it's gone and can focus on diet why don't u try lowering the dose for a little while and giveyour heart and body a break.
> 
> *We had a doctor on our other forum and that was the biggest thing he would preach to us, give your heart a break for a little while and cruise on a low dose (trt) for a few months.*
> 
> I don't wanna see any of the guys here get hurt or have complications from any of the shut we do. Stay safe.



Not trying to be a dick brother, but working side by side with different doctors on a daily in different hospitals for 6 months, you'd be surprised how often those ****ers use the googler to answer a patients question. I honestly was shocked and very surprised and somewhat startled by it... Also i'd like to point out to you guys telling him to lower his dose, HE CAN"T! Once you've been using a gram of test for as long as most people do, it's a totally different concept after that and isn't just like erasing something on paper and starting over. I mean of course it is best to start low and stay low or slowly gradually big your dose as needed. Of course some of you are going to say other wise because you've ran a much lower dose and can benefit greatly off it as to someone who's already blasted them selves to or over a gram. The one way i could see one benefitting and making gains from a low dose after they've cycled high doses of gear, is how the one member here mentioned how some change up there compounds within 3-4 weeks, so the bodies not ever building a tolerance and so further. I personally can atest to it on some level, but not enough to give it a sure fact. Interested in researching it soon.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Goodfella this guy was a friend of all of ours for a couple years. He was one of the smartest guys we've ever met. Ask rj, bip or colt they'll tell ya. So he wasn't just some dude who claimed to be a doctor. This guy helped us tremendously with everything possible. And he was jacked as ****.


----------



## goodfella

ECKSRATED said:


> Goodfella this guy was a friend of all of ours for a couple years. He was one of the smartest guys we've ever met. Ask rj, bip or colt they'll tell ya. So he wasn't just some dude who claimed to be a doctor. This guy helped us tremendously with everything possible. And he was jacked as ****.



I think I recall him from SI actually. Had some pretty solid post that were really in depth, so he could actually back his chit from wut i recall. Forgive me on the doctor talk brother, (not directing it to him or all doc's) but most doctors today are nothing more than a DR OZ without a tv show trying to collect a pay check from a insurance company. It's just sad to see that lack of seriousness/care from them. Wish there were more like that member around.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Na man its all good. I know how some people are and wanna act like something they're not. I don't know if the guy I'm talking about was ever a member at si. I'll have to ask colt.


----------



## hulksmash

goodfella said:


> Not trying to be a dick brother, but working side by side with different doctors on a daily in different hospitals for 6 months, you'd be surprised how often those ****ers use the googler to answer a patients question. I honestly was shocked and very surprised and somewhat startled by it... Also i'd like to point out to you guys telling him to lower his dose, HE CAN"T! Once you've been using a gram of test for as long as most people do, it's a totally different concept after that and isn't just like erasing something on paper and starting over. I mean of course it is best to start low and stay low or slowly gradually big your dose as needed. Of course some of you are going to say other wise because you've ran a much lower dose and can benefit greatly off it as to someone who's already blasted them selves to or over a gram. The one way i could see one benefitting and making gains from a low dose after they've cycled high doses of gear, is how the one member here mentioned how some change up there compounds within 3-4 weeks, so the bodies not ever building a tolerance and so further. I personally can atest to it on some level, but not enough to give it a sure fact. Interested in researching it soon.



I've actually lowered to 600mg/wk the past 2 weeks.

Reason: Save $ while getting used to eating more again. Hell, I even did legs for the first time in forever (always pussed out due to back). Felt good to do BB front squats again.

I'm weird like this: once I make 3 meals a day+lift 3x a week my habit again, then I've earned the 1g/wk spot again.


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## Fsuphisig

so you take 2 grams of gear, barely eat 3 meals a day and dont do legs............ im sorry dude i hate to judge a fellow member, but your everything i despise about steroids. I know ill prob get flamed for saying this but after reading this thread for the past couple days i just gotta speak up, especially because others will see this on google. I hate people who take steroids to get results obtainable from being natural. Its simply retarded, unhealthy, and some extremely P***Y sh*t. I see you went through some problems but dude 2 grams of test and thats what you look like??? like cmon you gotta know somethings wrong i bet your taking more test than fukin kai greene. Everyone always preaches to the noobs like me about what we should do before we cycle and how we should have a base and know how to eat bla bla bla i get it ! and i follow it, but then theres people like you that those same people condone and its so ****ing 2 sided and hypocritical. Just because you have cycled before and your older all the sudden its ok for yu to skip legs and not eat and just run gear? no not in my book. I have to say I think other members should step up and chastise the shit out of you, your setting a terrible example for others who read this and think its ok. I see people like you in my gym and in my frat all the time. They just want to look big and ripped nd dont really care how they get there, they train like shit eat like shit dont sleep, etc, then they jam a bunch of supplements down their throat and walk around the gym like some stud? gimme a break that is P***Y as hell, grow a set of balls and go buy a shit ton of chicken to cook up and hit legs twice a week. Dont run 2 grams and not eat thats like the dumbest thing ive ever heard. everyone has different goals and to each his own but i dont want any noobs to read this and think this is acceptable because so many already do and its making everyone a bunch of little bitches. again im sorry, i just think it has to be said for your good and the good of others, please take my advice and start slamming food etc, get bloods! I hope you can get healthy and huge! good day


----------



## woodswise

Fsuphisig said:


> so you take 2 grams of gear, barely eat 3 meals a day and dont do legs............ im sorry dude i hate to judge a fellow member, but your everything i despise about steroids. I know ill prob get flamed for saying this but after reading this thread for the past couple days i just gotta speak up, especially because others will see this on google. I hate people who take steroids to get results obtainable from being natural. Its simply retarded, unhealthy, and some extremely P***Y sh*t. I see you went through some problems but dude 2 grams of test and thats what you look like??? like cmon you gotta know somethings wrong i bet your taking more test than fukin kai greene. Everyone always preaches to the noobs like me about what we should do before we cycle and how we should have a base and know how to eat bla bla bla i get it ! and i follow it, but then theres people like you that those same people condone and its so ****ing 2 sided and hypocritical. Just because you have cycled before and your older all the sudden its ok for yu to skip legs and not eat and just run gear? no not in my book. I have to say I think other members should step up and chastise the shit out of you, your setting a terrible example for others who read this and think its ok. I see people like you in my gym and in my frat all the time. They just want to look big and ripped nd dont really care how they get there, they train like shit eat like shit dont sleep, etc, then they jam a bunch of supplements down their throat and walk around the gym like some stud? gimme a break that is P***Y as hell, grow a set of balls and go buy a shit ton of chicken to cook up and hit legs twice a week. Dont run 2 grams and not eat thats like the dumbest thing ive ever heard. everyone has different goals and to each his own but i dont want any noobs to read this and think this is acceptable because so many already do and its making everyone a bunch of little bitches. again im sorry, i just think it has to be said for your good and the good of others, please take my advice and start slamming food etc, get bloods! I hope you can get healthy and huge! good day



Bro, this guy is not a newb.  Chastizing is for newbs.  Once a guy is past that, then so long as he is making an informed decision, we should respect that.

Also if you think about what he wrote, the 2g of test was when he was seriously blasting.  he has lost a lot of mass since his life went haywire and the barely eating is part of the haywire time.

So cut the guy a break and don't flame him for things he isn't doing, and I say don't flame him at all because he did what he did with open eyes and no illusions about what he was doing.  Rather than flame him respect him for engaging in an honest discussion about what he has done and is doing.


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## Infantry87

Hulk has been around for awhile so the dude has my respect. I know about addiction to opiates after being a MEDEVAC out of a hell hole country. It's not a pretty sight so hulk keeping doing what your doing and stay away from the pills.


----------



## DF

Fsuphisig said:


> so you take 2 grams of gear, barely eat 3 meals a day and dont do legs............ im sorry dude i hate to judge a fellow member, but your everything i despise about steroids. I know ill prob get flamed for saying this but after reading this thread for the past couple days i just gotta speak up, especially because others will see this on google. I hate people who take steroids to get results obtainable from being natural. Its simply retarded, unhealthy, and some extremely P***Y sh*t. I see you went through some problems but dude 2 grams of test and thats what you look like??? like cmon you gotta know somethings wrong i bet your taking more test than fukin kai greene. Everyone always preaches to the noobs like me about what we should do before we cycle and how we should have a base and know how to eat bla bla bla i get it ! and i follow it, but then theres people like you that those same people condone and its so ****ing 2 sided and hypocritical. Just because you have cycled before and your older all the sudden its ok for yu to skip legs and not eat and just run gear? no not in my book. I have to say I think other members should step up and chastise the shit out of you, your setting a terrible example for others who read this and think its ok. I see people like you in my gym and in my frat all the time. They just want to look big and ripped nd dont really care how they get there, they train like shit eat like shit dont sleep, etc, then they jam a bunch of supplements down their throat and walk around the gym like some stud? gimme a break that is P***Y as hell, grow a set of balls and go buy a shit ton of chicken to cook up and hit legs twice a week. Dont run 2 grams and not eat thats like the dumbest thing ive ever heard. everyone has different goals and to each his own but i dont want any noobs to read this and think this is acceptable because so many already do and its making everyone a bunch of little bitches. again im sorry, i just think it has to be said for your good and the good of others, please take my advice and start slamming food etc, get bloods! I hope you can get healthy and huge! good day



I get what you are saying here Fsuphisig.  As WW has said hulk is not a noob & knows what he is getting into.  He has also stated several times that he does not recommend others doing as he has.  I too wish hulk would be a bit more conservative with his dosing.


----------



## hulksmash

Fsuphisig said:


> so you take 2 grams of gear, barely eat 3 meals a day and dont do legs............ im sorry dude i hate to judge a fellow member, but your everything i despise about steroids. I know ill prob get flamed for saying this but after reading this thread for the past couple days i just gotta speak up, especially because others will see this on google. I hate people who take steroids to get results obtainable from being natural. Its simply retarded, unhealthy, and some extremely P***Y sh*t. I see you went through some problems but dude 2 grams of test and thats what you look like??? like cmon you gotta know somethings wrong i bet your taking more test than fukin kai greene. Everyone always preaches to the noobs like me about what we should do before we cycle and how we should have a base and know how to eat bla bla bla i get it ! and i follow it, but then theres people like you that those same people condone and its so ****ing 2 sided and hypocritical. Just because you have cycled before and your older all the sudden its ok for yu to skip legs and not eat and just run gear? no not in my book. I have to say I think other members should step up and chastise the shit out of you, your setting a terrible example for others who read this and think its ok. I see people like you in my gym and in my frat all the time. They just want to look big and ripped nd dont really care how they get there, they train like shit eat like shit dont sleep, etc, then they jam a bunch of supplements down their throat and walk around the gym like some stud? gimme a break that is P***Y as hell, grow a set of balls and go buy a shit ton of chicken to cook up and hit legs twice a week. Dont run 2 grams and not eat thats like the dumbest thing ive ever heard. everyone has different goals and to each his own but i dont want any noobs to read this and think this is acceptable because so many already do and its making everyone a bunch of little bitches. again im sorry, i just think it has to be said for your good and the good of others, please take my advice and start slamming food etc, get bloods! I hope you can get healthy and huge! good day



Everything you've stated, I already know. I went from 120 to ~212lbs with just orals; force feeding and eating was a 4 year job for me at one point.

Secondly, the first thing I stated was to not do what I do as well as follow the normal recommendations. I even restated that.

You have made insults on my work ethic in the gym and kitchen-this is fine; you only had a little information to build that assumption.

I apologize for making you believe I said to run 2 grams and not eat- that is "the dumbest thing I've heard" and never would I say that nor follow it.

Thanks for the offer of your advice, but at nearing a decade with lifting, that is nothing but common knowledge to me.

Sorry again for misleading you.


----------



## goodfella

hulksmash said:


> Everything you've stated, I already know. I went from 120 to ~212lbs with just orals; force feeding and eating was a 4 year job for me at one point.
> 
> Secondly, the first thing I stated was to not do what I do as well as follow the normal recommendations. I even restated that.
> 
> You have made insults on my work ethic in the gym and kitchen-this is fine; you only had a little information to build that assumption.
> 
> I apologize for making you believe I said to run 2 grams and not eat- that is "the dumbest thing I've heard" and never would I say that nor follow it.
> 
> Thanks for the offer of your advice, but at nearing a decade with lifting, that is nothing but common knowledge to me.
> 
> Sorry again for misleading you.



hulksmash being a solid dude and member!!!


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## Fsuphisig

Sorry about my rant hulk, you've been through more than i have and im not in a place to judge, ive just been real stressed out because i have been studying 6-8 hours a day everyday for the past two months for the LSAT and its coming up on Monday and its just got me stressed plain and simple, again sorry man


----------



## TheLupinator

Fsuphisig said:


> Sorry about my rant hulk, you've been through more than i have and im not in a place to judge, ive just been real stressed out because i have been studying 6-8 hours a day everyday for the past two months for the LSAT and its coming up on Monday and its just got me stressed plain and simple, again sorry man




Oh no, you're one of those guys..... us MBA-ers were the blue-collared - work hard, play hard - grad students compared to the kids who were in the law program. The law school was one big tool shed Lol. Just fckin with you, reminds me of my grad school days. Good luck on the the test, buddy.


----------



## dongerlord33

Hulk what do you use to keep your estrogen under control and how much?


----------



## goodfella

^^^And thats exactly why we don't need members like hulk posting his regimes...


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## PillarofBalance

dongerlord33 said:


> Hulk what do you use to keep your estrogen under control and how much?



He took an adequate amount of aromatize inhibitor


----------



## Big ron

I run like 850 per week and feel awesome.  And I ad in some EQ from time to time.


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## hulksmash

Wow, funny to see this popped back up. 

That was fun experimenting. 

I loved being at a gram of Test E and ~400 Tren Base/week

Nowadays, I just stay around ~400 TNE/~400 Tren base...if money gets better I'll try higher

tl;dr you don't need high dosages unless you plan on being cream of the crop physique wise; 1g test/week makes you feel and look like a god in my body


----------



## hulksmash

PillarofBalance said:


> He took an adequate amount of aromatize inhibitor



Yea I did 2-2.5mg of letro e3d if I remember right

God that will dry you out but the joints hurt daily


----------



## hulksmash

PS I use myself as a lab rat, e.g. "what will 3g of test do"

So I would buy up and get my answer

Of course that's only for me nor would I recommend using yourself as a lab rat like I do


----------



## Spongy

New members need to understand that hulk does what he wants.  I credit him for thinking outside the box and giving things a try.  Respect.  Just because it is being tried doesn't mean it should be written down as gospel.  Many of us think outside the box.  Do what YOU feel comfortable with, not what any of us try.  Do your research, make a decision, and stick to it.  Respect to hulk for using his body as a lab.  Not what I would do, but respect nonetheless.  What works for one person may not work for another.


----------



## hulksmash

Spongy said:


> New members need to understand that hulk does what he wants.  I credit him for thinking outside the box and giving things a try.  Respect.  *Just because it is being tried doesn't mean it should be written down as gospel.*  Many of us think outside the box.  Do what YOU feel comfortable with, not what any of us try.  Do your research, make a decision, and stick to it.  Respect to hulk for using his body as a lab.  Not what I would do, but respect nonetheless.  What works for one person may not work for another.



Right in the bold; keep rockin Spongy


----------



## hulksmash

Spongy said:


> New members need to understand that hulk does what he wants.  I credit him for thinking outside the box and giving things a try.  Respect.  Just because it is being tried doesn't mean it should be written down as gospel.  Many of us think outside the box.  Do what YOU feel comfortable with, not what any of us try.  Do your research, make a decision, and stick to it.  Respect to hulk for using his body as a lab.  Not what I would do, but respect nonetheless.  What works for one person may not work for another.



and as an addendum:

I had bloodwork during all that; calcium was high (doc asked if I was eating a lot of Tums lol), BP was normal high, thyroid was hyper (dat dere tren)

tl;dr i choose to take risks and still use bloodwork to figure how far to go; if anyone decides to try a gram and up of ANY AAS, you better be getting bloodwork continually-stuff can happen quick


----------



## stanley

nope every man to them self,happydays


----------



## stanley

PillarofBalance said:


> Anyone here have a problem with the sheer volume of oil that goes into a cycle like this?



nope everyman for himself,happydays


----------



## Caballero

hulksmash said:


> This reminds me-
> 
> Forgot to state I've been on Letro 2.5mg EOD/e2d since December as well.



From the grave Bump haha .....Hey hulk how's tricks (cycling & health) ? You still blasting grams?


----------



## ICEPICK

Bro you got some good genetics! I accidentally [truley don't know how] got my TT to 5K on 300mg/week and I had norm high BP but HDL was in the dumps. I Had to stop Test for a while during cycle, which sucked, Had an EKG and readings looked normal but the heart doc said I put myself in the 90% to get heart attack. Arterier swelling and hi rbc can be factors and throw in high BP while really working hard and POP goes that lab rat lol

But keep on doing good if your doing good. What's your weight in avatar 235? what would you say your genetic limit is natty?


----------



## Bro Bundy

He's got pro genetics !!!!


----------



## ToolSteel

Pro genetics for not dying.


----------



## JuiceTrain

I've done the 1g Test but 2gs is no need for me;


----------



## JuiceTrain

1g feels great once you can keep your estro under control;
When i 1st started cycling I need adex for estro but over the years using it seemed detrimental for me (low e2 feeling) once i stopped taking it than that Gram test really shined for me


----------



## JuiceTrain

Still kept some adex on hand but only took some when i felt the need to


----------



## ECKSRATED

The guy grew back a finger that cut off. That's cyborg genetics.


----------



## JuiceTrain

ECKSRATED said:


> The guy grew back a finger that cut off. That's cyborg genetics.



Hulk injects iguana blood....


----------



## pulax5

After reading every single post I must say this is the best information (however hypothetical to my own goals) I've ever read from start to finish on a forum regarding gear! Loved this s***


----------



## Rip

One meal a day. 
That's messed up.
How can anabolic promote nitrogen retention if you're not taking in adequate protein? 
Before i ever took anything, I was eating 6-7 meals per day.



hulksmash said:


> Yes; I'd be bigger if I would've eaten more than 1 meal a day since December.
> 
> Have on average 1,200-1,500cals daily since December..
> 
> Now that all the chaos in my life has FINALLY stopped, I can eat more.


----------



## Nytmere

ECKSRATED said:


> Do u compete or ever want to compete? If not then 3 gs a week is kind of ridiculous. Not being a Dick wither but with consistently running that much gear I would expect you to be alot bigger.
> 
> And just because bloods come back in reasonable ranges does not mean your "healthy".


I was thinking the same thing, I stoped competing 3 years ago but have done 6 shows, It took 3 weeks for me to even feel the test E or cyp I was taking, and only then I would notice my strength going up.


----------



## pumpboss

This thread had a lot of good information. Good to hear so many guys talking caution. Super easy for rookies to start with competition cycles and get themselves into trouble. The pioneers of this stuff were all basically labrats too so credit to hulk for continuing the tradition, no thanks for my body though. Thanks for all the insight and experience fellas.


----------



## Dozer

I have ran Tren A @80mg ED and Tren E at 800mg/wk. (When I was experimenting)
Only side effect was Trensomnia. Waking up multiple times during the night. Pretty much counter productive. 
Ran with 420mg Test E. Lower test dosage got rid of shoulder acne that started to happen. White bumps from excess sebum production. Dropping my Test from 800mg totally got rid of that in two weeks or so.  I do not run Tren high like that anymore. Did it as an experiment.

So far for gaining size and constant pumps and energy... Higher Testosterone!
Currently on last 6 weeks... (12 weeks blast with a frontload of 3 weeks) (15weeks total)
360mg Test E EOD
150mg Deca EOD
25mg Tren A ED added last 8 weeks. 
12.5mg Aromasin ED
10mg Cialis ED.

Pretty much where I want to be after this blast.
Future blast all compunds below 500mg.


----------



## Straight30weight

Why isn't the OP still on here? I've read some of his stuff, kind of wish he was still posting.


----------



## Jin

Straight30weight said:


> Why isn't the OP still on here? I've read some of his stuff, kind of wish he was still posting.



You need more than one clown? I’m hurt.


----------



## big_pete

hulksmash said:


> I get a lot of PMs concerning my dosages/beliefs/etc. *I still advise everyone to start with 500mg Test E/week as their first, and go up from there. I also believe the fewer the compounds, the better (no reason to run more than 2 compounds at a time if you're not competing).* *DON'T DO WHAT I DO!*
> 
> Well, I got this PM and thought it would be entertaining to post it:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I believe cycling on/off is a waste and you are going 2 steps forward, 1 step back-*HOWEVER, my goals come first; health/natty test levels second.*
> 
> Being on indefinitely has helped me to realize that gains ARE SLOW (it still takes years for even pros to make huge changes) and that calories become the only number that matters for physique composition.
> 
> Being on 2g or even 3g of Test E, you feel like superman. Your libido is like a teenager. At 3g, I got night sweats like tren-although much milder.
> 
> Thanks to Swiper and other folks opening my eyes to how much competitors really run, I'll never go below a gram of test e again.
> 
> I ONLY run Test E. For blasts, I do 2g Test E. My last blast, I did 2g Test E, 1g Deca. I'll just stick to test only; the added gains (besides joint comfort) were negligible.



The only time I went over a gram of test I got terrible bacne like every inch had a huge zit but I felt like a beast


----------



## gymrat827

IDK how any of you tolerate the sides.  Past 1200 mg Im a fa king nut job.


----------



## hulksmash

Rip said:


> One meal a day.
> That's messed up.
> How can anabolic promote nitrogen retention if you're not taking in adequate protein?
> Before i ever took anything, I was eating 6-7 meals per day.



Because biology is not linear. You have myostatin, FOX0, cAMP, etc forever to affect muscle growth.

Hell, myostatin gets increased from high protein intake:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4281872/

Higher protein=less muscle.

BUT that's one study. Don't go wild throwing tubs of powder and meat away. Just dont be a sucker and eat excessive protein. Felt this was a fun way to share more knowledge.

Ya'll can always count on me to flip your beliefs on their heads.


----------



## Seeker

one great thread from some great times. It should have ended then and left alone as a classic


----------



## hulksmash

Seeker said:


> one great thread from some great times. It should have ended then and left alone as a classic



CRAP lock it then!

Didnt think of that lol
just had a segue for protein intake


----------



## Bro Bundy

i think u should try 3 g..Its a new day here a SI..The big dose era


----------

