# The "myth" of being lean and lifting heavy...



## Cashout (Dec 11, 2012)

This morning I was on campus and I ran into a guy who I've known for some time. He lives here in town and trains at the local Gold's.

Of course our discussion evolved to training and he made the comment that he is training "heavy" now so he is carrying "some extra" body fat.

By my guess, I'd say he was close to 20% at about 5'10" and 240ish. He was wearing a t-shirt and jeans so I cannot be more accurate in my guess. However, I'd seen him last summer and I can certainly say he was not less than 15-16% at that time. 

Regardless, I asked him, "why do you need more body fat to train heavy?"

He answered by say "Well, I'm bulking and pushing more weight on my core lifts."

I answered, "Fat doesn't move weight. So how does being fatter help you bench or squat?"

His answer "You know, it's for power." 

I answered "No. I don't know. Explain how being fatter gives you more power on your core lifts."

After verbally sparring with him for a while longer, he grew tired of it and finally acquiesced and said "You are right - fat doesn't life weight."

I left it at that as I could tell he got the point.

So, I wonder why is there such a lasting urban myth that being fat somehow betters one bench or squat or whatever and enables them to lift heavier.

Now, if one were training for "strong man" contests or playing offense line in football, I could see how being fatter would contribute those types of activities.

Sure a basic level of fat is necessary for cushioning and joint support in repetitive movement exercise but being fat is just not going to contribute beyond that.

I think I know the answer to my own question but I'll float it to the board just to prove a point.


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## mistah187 (Dec 11, 2012)

I think a lot of people get caught up in this. I think it might be because when people "bulk" they also tend to go down in reps and do heavier lifts. That's how I have always done it. Winter = bulking and strength and spring/summer = cutting and reps. Maybe people just think from doing it this way that being a little more fat helps u lift... It is ridiculous but that's the only thing I can think of.


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## Big Worm (Dec 11, 2012)

I think it has a lot to do with power lifters who are trying to put on as much size/weight as possible and taking in whatever food neccassary (good or bad calories).  They are eating like machines, fueling their bodies, getting stronger but also putting on fat. They got bigger and stronger but fat came with it so it must have had something to do with it right? Wrong. 

The other part of is being bigger in general helps. Big belly = less ROM on a PL style bench. Big belly/body gives something to load up against at the bottom of squats.


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## PFM (Dec 11, 2012)

When I drop below 10% my strength falls off.

At 245lbs my arms are 19", my BF 10-12%, I am strong as fuck. At 7-8% BF my arms at under 18", my weight is 216-222lbs and my bench will fall off from high 300's down to mid 200's.

I don't correlate this directly to BF% but the overall size of the muscle. Big muscles move big weight.

(with the above stated there is always some freak guy that can PL incredibly lean, but they are flukes, they are far and few between)


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 11, 2012)

Bench belly means less range of motion. A belly will also provide an artificial stretch reflex for a conventional Deadlift and a squat.

Powerlifting requires much more calories than bodybuilding does. Strong man requires significant calories as well, but you are incorrect in saying that body fat is of more use there. Conditioning is required in strong man.

You don't have to be a giant fat disgusting shit to powerlift, but 20 to 25% body fat is not unreasonable. 

I worked with spongy to get my weight down for a PL meet. He had me dialed right in at the top of my weight class. Perfect! But, the caloric restriction knocked about 50lbs off my squat.


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## PFM (Dec 11, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> Bench belly means less range of motion. A belly will also provide an artificial stretch reflex for a conventional Deadlift and a squat.
> 
> Powerlifting requires much more calories than bodybuilding does. Strong man requires significant calories as well, but you are incorrect in saying that body fat is of more use there. Conditioning is required in strong man.
> 
> ...



Ah yes the calorie deficit that goes hand in hand with lower BF%..................


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## jennerrator (Dec 11, 2012)

omg, I have thought this over and over and I agree with you, I will never understand the "having to have fat" concept


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## 69nites (Dec 11, 2012)

Jenner said:


> omg, I have thought this over and over and I agree with you, I will never understand the "having to have fat" concept


Baseball players joke about how the old time players were fat and never had injuries.  "Can't pull fat" is something you'll hear.  I think a little fat does something for injury prevention.


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## Cashout (Dec 11, 2012)

Okay, let's assume for a second that there is some benefit for power lifters, that still doesn't explain the persistence of this myth for the general lifting population.

I've got my own theory and it is multifaceted.

The first is what I call "Big Guy" syndrome. "Big Guy" syndrome is characterized by a male fixation on how much one actually weights. Over the years, I've seen this thousands of times. A guy gets it in his head that if he weights a certain amount then he is a "big guy." This is despite the fact that most of the time, when he is lean he looks better. I know that this is exactly the problem with the guy I mentioned in my first post. If he is less than 240 then he feels "small" even though he looks a lot better when he is lean. Everyone has told him so but he is stuck on the number 240 as the sole metric that he incorrectly relates to being a "big guy."

So that's the first thing - "Big Guy" syndrome. 

The second issue is a very obvious one. Discipline. It is easy to get fat and stay fat by saying "I'm training heavy" as an excuse for it. 90% of the guys in any gym in the country with a high body fat percentage will use this mantra. The funny thing is, that folks seem to give them a "free pass" on it. I don't understand that! Muscle is not made up of fat so there is no reason that 18% or 20% body fat needs to be part of a "heavy training" phase.

Anyhow, these are the things that make me laugh when I have these type of discussions with folks like I had this morning.


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## 69nites (Dec 11, 2012)

Cashout said:


> Okay, let's assume for a second that there is some benefit for power lifters, that still doesn't explain the persistence of this myth for the general lifting population.
> 
> I've got my own theory and it is multifaceted.
> 
> ...


I know that no one notices that I'm big until I cut.  They just think I'm getting fat.


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## ken Sass (Dec 11, 2012)

interesting point i have lost 6 pounds and have added weight to my bench but i am pretty hefty. i would like to get my b.f. down to 20% but if my strength starts to decline i will up my weight. i think their is a balance between fat and strength, like mike said you get below x % b.f. and your power starts to drop. of course this is just a opinion. cash i don't believe you can be used as a example, i want to here from a normal human no greek gods


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## sfstud33 (Dec 11, 2012)

It may be the opposite is what drives the thought that big is strong.

I know last year i dieted down over a six month period to suit my doctor (at the time) views on BMI. He wanted me at 165lbs. At the time i was at 190. So i took it as a challenge and managed to get down to 165 by June of last year. Problem was i lost muscle, looked emaciated and could only push about the same weight as my wife. Not that i care what weight i push, but i think guys feel that if they diet they lose muscle. I know the muscle i most regret loosing most was my calves - they are not nearly as good as they were 18 months ago.

Anyway, now i decided i dont care about BMI im just going to do what i want to feel good and look good.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 11, 2012)

Cashout said:


> Okay, let's assume for a second that there is some benefit for power lifters, that still doesn't explain the persistence of this myth for the general lifting population.
> 
> I've got my own theory and it is multifaceted.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if you read my above post cashout but your statement only works in a limited context.

There are fat guys who lift. Then there are powerlifters. The difference is discipline and that WE COMPETE. 

If he doesn't hit the platform to compete he isn't a powerlifter. If he doesn't get tanned and hit the stage he isn't a bodybuilder. He's just a fat guy who lifts.

But you keep referring to the fact that they "look" better leaner. I couldn't care less. At 236 my chiro told me I looked intimidating. At 260 I just look big. It's not about how I look its about how strong I am.

Bloat is strength.

Your argument is valid for bodybuilding purposes to a degree but not at all for powerlifting and somewhat for strong man.


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## Cashout (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree with you and you are making my point for me!

Unless a guy is power lifting in meets, he is just a guy lifting and again, what is the point of carrying around 20% body fat and passing it off as "heavy training."

That is my whole point. That is why I wrote in my last post "assume for a second that there is some benefit for power lifters." 90% of guys never enter a meet so they are just fat guys lifting. For those that do meets and are actual PL, its is plausible.

Now, as you wrote, if you are a PL it could matter but you and I both know that 99% of guys in gyms across the county will never enter a meet. I'm not talking about the 1% of real power lifters - I'm talking about the gyms full of fat guys who lift.



PillarofBalance said:


> I'm not sure if you read my above post cashout but your statement only works in a limited context.
> 
> There are fat guys who lift. Then there are powerlifters. The difference is discipline and that WE COMPETE.
> 
> ...


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## Big Worm (Dec 11, 2012)

I will say that I've never gotten weaker as I've gained weight.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 11, 2012)

Cashout said:


> I agree with you and you are making my point for me!
> 
> Unless a guy is power lifting in meets, he is just a guy lifting and again, what is the point of carrying around 20% body fat and passing it off as "heavy training."
> 
> ...



lol

I am sick and haven't slept well for a couple nights! Mercy!


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## ken Sass (Dec 11, 2012)

Cashout said:


> I agree with you and you are making my point for me!
> 
> Unless a guy is power lifting in meets, he is just a guy lifting and again, what is the point of carrying around 20% body fat and passing it off as "heavy training."
> 
> ...


ok i will enter the next benchpress contest their is....just because i am not competing does not lesson the importance i put on my training nor does it make those that compete better than those of us that haven't. my goals are just as important to me as yours are to you and just as worthy of respect.


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## ken Sass (Dec 11, 2012)

i would also like to point out i have nothing but respect for cash and pob and understand they have a far greater knowledge of this thing of are's than i do but competition is not the only valid goal


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## Curiosity (Dec 11, 2012)

PFM said:


> When I drop below 10% my strength falls off.
> 
> At 245lbs my arms are 19", my BF 10-12%, I am strong as fuck. At 7-8% BF my arms at under 18", my weight is 216-222lbs and my bench will fall off from high 300's down to mid 200's.
> 
> ...



I will have to say that I do believe that carrying some BF helps people to gain muscle more easily, and thus get stronger. I'm talking about my experiences at <7% BF, where my strength drops, my energy drops, and I look awesomely shredded, vs. 10-12% BF, where I can make strength and scale weight progress much more easily without really going above that BF range.

I believe that the human body, when it is at a very low BF%, enters a sort of "survival mode", where your brain knows that you have no fat stores to draw on, and thus no energy reserves, so it slows down your metabolism and uses the food you eat only for basic functions. Obviously this type of feedback loop would be beneficial in the wild, where you don't know when your next meal is coming. I think that it is very difficult to build muscle in this state. 

Now, as far as needing to be 20% BF to build muscle, that's just an excuse to be fat. But I find that over 10% BF I have an easier time gaining muscle and strength than I do when I'm shredded.


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## Cashout (Dec 11, 2012)

Ken neither POB nor I are stating that anyone's goals are more or less valid. We are both agreeing that in some case there is a functional purpose for having a high body fat.

My point with this thread was and still is that the overwhelming majority of guys do not have a functional purpose for carrying a high degree of body fat but use the "heavy training" excuse to get a free past on being sloppy.

As a few have mentioned, 10-12% is more than adequate for growing. I also agree with them.

Beyond that however, there better be a functional purpose otherwise its just being fat.


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## coltmc4545 (Dec 11, 2012)

During fall/winter I put my fat coat on and bulk. I've tried to "clean bulk" and I lost interest quick because my strength wasn't climbing like it does when I dirty bulk. I don't compete but during fall/winter I train like a power lifter to put on as much mass as I can. During spring/summer I cut cals and eat clean and train like a body builder. It works for me. Call it sloppy, call it whatever, but it works for me. I usually get to about 16% bf during winter and then like last summer I got down to 8.6%. I'm stronger when I'm big. I put on more mass when I'm big. That's my goals. Honestly I say if you're over 20% bf and in the gym, hey at least you're in the gym. If you're happy with yourself at that weight then that's all that matters. If you're not happy with yourself and you continue staying the way you are, then that's when you have problems. Those are the only people I look down upon or get frustrated with. The ones that are miserable or bitch about thier problems or have low self esteem and do absolutely nothing about it.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 12, 2012)

ken said:


> ok i will enter the next benchpress contest their is....just because i am not competing does not lesson the importance i put on my training nor does it make those that compete better than those of us that haven't. my goals are just as important to me as yours are to you and just as worthy of respect.




Absolutely they are and I don't mean to put you down. My only point was don't call yourself a bodybuilder or a powerlifter until you compete... But fuck yeah bro, go hit a bench press comp. You'd love it!!!!


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## ripped_one (Dec 12, 2012)

From my experience its not the bodyfat percentage as much as cns / neuro-muscular recovery, glycogen levels, and hydration.

Yes, when you are eating a ton and not doing cardio its easy to keep your muscles full of glycogen and water, stay recovered, and "on form", but the by-product of doing that is adding fat.  I think that is why people think being fat builds strength... Fat is actually secondary.

In my opinion, most athletes should be able to stay 10-12% and still easily keep their strength, but its different for everyone.  For me to get into single digits I have to really push my body to let go of the fat, and part of it involves running low on carbs and calories and doing cardio.  My strength drops quick while getting lean, but once I'm there and can starting eating normally, my strength comes back, but I slowly creep back to my 9-10% set point.

That set point is different for everyone, some are 7% some are 14%, but 20%? Come on...


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## PFM (Dec 12, 2012)

Let's distinguish unnecessary BF and water weight, as they are apples and oranges, they are as relative as muscle and fat. Even on a moderate to heavy dose or Tren & Mast I am not as single rep powerful as I am running Test over Nandrolone. Hence it's the water that provides the increased strength.

So it's a NO to body fat, but in my experience I am stronger (especially single rep) the bigger/heavier I am.


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## Santaklaus (Dec 12, 2012)

the bigger you are(by this I am referring to the more you weigh) the more calories you will need to consume after your workouts.  Unless you have a very strict diet or just eat very very healthy generally more calories equals more lbs which equals higher BF %.  Speaking for myself, when I consume more calories the day before a workout.. my workouts tend to be better and I tend to lift heavier..  So I'm along the theory that the more you weigh the heavier you can lift.

Not to mention... Have you ever seen a skinny incredibly lean Powerlifter???


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## DarksideSix (Dec 12, 2012)

Colt hits the nail right on the head in my opinion.   There has been a thought process pounded in people's heads that in order to bulk you need to ad fat and then cut later when I think in actuality it's more so of when you bulk you ad some extra BF but it boils down to people just being lazy and using "I'm bulking" as an excuse to carrying around a gut.  

No sure there is a theory of adding weight to make you strong so in turn you push more weight wich helps build bigger muscles but the reality of it is that you can add leaner muscle without having to be sloppy and fat. 

I agree with Cash in a sense that some of it is small mans syndrome but I think the majority of it is just and excuse to be lazy and ear like shit and then fall back on the "oh I'm bulking" excuse as a way to try and justify it to themselves.


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## Live2Train (Feb 19, 2014)

That guy sounds like he's making excuses as to why he isn't ripped.  I'm 5' 10", 215 lbs, and about 10% BF.  I bench 405, squat 405 for sets of 10, and deadlift 600, so I feel I'm proof that you don't have to have a higher BF% to lift heavy.  I seriously think it's just makes him feel better and he's told himself for so long that he actually believes it to be true.


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## Fsuphisig (Mar 15, 2014)

I still think having some extra weight on me helps me lift heavier, I also believe its good for your joints. Just from experience


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## ProteinFarts (Mar 15, 2014)

No it doesn't make much sense does it. Fat should not give you more power. But it does. I don't know the answer as to why. I'm sure a quick google would tell me. But it's always ben such fact (for me) I've never looked. But every time I have been lean I am worthless in the gym. 

It is a lot of work to do this to your body over and over. I have done it a hundred times. And in the end I'm the same old weight of around 210. But it is done succefully by many - aka all the pro body builders do this each season. As you age each time you have to lean down it gets a bit harder. The shit around your mid section doesn't like to let go. I'm done playing with fire. Now I basically attempt to take a base weight of 210 and just slowly lean it out while staying the same weight. Effectively just changing my body composition. To me this is easier than up and down of it all. But I also get bored doing it this way.  I always enjoyed having a goal. Getting huge or getting ripped. Trying it this way now.


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## ProteinFarts (Mar 15, 2014)

...and to clarify. I'm not talking about going from 25% body fat to 15%. When I say lean I'm talking sub 8% or whatever. And if your naturally ripped then extra fat won't help much and being ripped won't hinder much. But yes, in my experience, if you get ripped and your not naturally built that way it affects your reps. Muscles burn out faster and can't lift as much. That's my experience. Skimming the other posts though that's not everyone's.


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## ProteinFarts (Mar 15, 2014)

Additionally! Bulking at the same time of gaining muscle simply takes less thought. Your not doing math each day trying to accurately calc exactly how much food you need to gain muscle but not get fat. That is hard for many I would imagine. It's the poor mans bulk routine. The no brainer bulk routine. But as you mature physically, I at least, can hear my body just as if it had a voice and was telling me exactly what I needed and when I need it. Just saying.


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## Malevolence (Mar 15, 2014)

My main goal is always to add muscle followed by staying below 15% bf, if I start getting above that I switch my routine to lowering body fat. Strength is secondary to all of this. I am a body builder, not a weight lifter. Now my goals are contrary to some of the others here, but it seems even with the people who have the same goals we reach them doing slightly different routines due to genetics. My point is, if you are a weight lifter, power lifter and you carry extra body fat, then more power to ya.


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## 11Bravo (Mar 24, 2014)

If fat makes you lift big my ass should be in the strong man comp


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## ProteinFarts (Mar 24, 2014)

Has there ever been a strong man champ that had a lean body builder type body? That is proof of the answer


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