# Bench Press stuff



## MrRippedZilla (Dec 6, 2017)

Since benching is on my mind, a couple of papers with intriguing results to share (PM for full paper as always):

Effects of Pre-exhaustion on the Patterns of Muscular Activity in the Flat Bench Press
- Pre-exhausting a muscle (chest, front delt or tricep) before benching* only increases the activation, the whole point of pre-exhausting, of the tricep, *not the chest. 
- This was accomplished via 4x10 lying tricep extensions before attempting a 95% 1RM. Incline fly for chest & front raise for delts did nothing of note. 

Effect of Barbell Weight on the Structure of the Flat Bench Press (free to read)
- Here they looked at the muscle activation levels of the prime movers during the bench press (chest, front delt, triceps & lats) across a range of intensities from 70%-100%1RM for a single rep. 
- Chest maxed out at 70%1RM before *dropping* once they got beyond 90%1RM.
- Front delt & lat activation steadily increased, maxing out at 100%1RM.
- Triceps basically equalled chest for max activation at 90%1RM and then overtook everything at 100%1RM. Basically, *triceps are the most active muscle group when maxing out on bench. 

*Interesting results. For a variety of reasons I think


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 6, 2017)

Always nice when the research backs up experience. Beat the living shit out of your triceps for a big bench.

(Assumes technique is solid)


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## Jin (Dec 6, 2017)

JM press is going to take a front seat on push days for a couple months.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 6, 2017)

The implications for hypertrophy are fairly profound too. 

- Going too heavy on the bench, say below 5RM, is probably not going to do you much good in terms of chest growth. Not that trainees do this on a regular basis but it's still worth mentioning. The chest is still a fast twitch muscle group so 5-10RM sounds pretty good. 

- For those who want to bring up their triceps, I think the pre-exaustion data has a lot of practical value. 
The level of tricep activation increases on a compound lift following an isolation lift. The tricep is also a fast twitch muscle group and, as we can see, responds well to heavy loads/lower volume. 
So, doing some extensions/isolation move of choice for a few sets of 8-10 and following that up with a big compound like CG bench for sets of 3-6 makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. It also backs up my experience with clients - triceps respond damn well to some load, no need for the pissy weight 20 rep "feel the burn" pushdowns.


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 7, 2017)

Jin said:


> JM press is going to take a front seat on push days for a couple months.



Close grip too. I recommend close grip over jm because it's closer to being a comp bench and will carry over more (in my experience). Jm press is good when done right but it can be a dangerous exercise when going heavy. Be careful. People ask me all the time how to get a stronger bench and my answer is always the same, heavy close grip. I'm talking 1-4 rep range. It's a power movement so u d dont need higher reps. Use extensions and other shit at higher reps for hypertrophy.


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 7, 2017)

MrRippedZilla said:


> The implications for hypertrophy are fairly profound too.
> 
> - Going too heavy on the bench, say below 5RM, is probably not going to do you much good in terms of chest growth. Not that trainees do this on a regular basis but it's still worth mentioning. The chest is still a fast twitch muscle group so 5-10RM sounds pretty good.
> 
> ...



I should have read this before I posted. Very well said zilla. 

It's funny u say that about pre exhausting the tris. When I used to "bodybuild" and had an arm day I would always start with tri cables extensions then move to close grip bench and go heavy. I always felt strong as **** on close grip we I did that. 

And yes u can absolutely destroy your triceps with volume and heavy loads.


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## snake (Dec 7, 2017)

Okay so you confirmed my shitty bench is do to my shitty triceps. Thanks 

On another note; I have been doing a pre-exhaustion for my chest for the last 8 weeks. Looks like this: cable cross overs (10 reps) and right to flat bench (10 reps), 4 sets. The idea is to take out those tris but damn, I'm not convinced it does much more for the chest then just bench. I'm old school and gauge the quality of my workout by not only the weights and reps but also my DOMS. (Shut it Doc Panda!) I think there's much to be said for just plan old benching for chest development.

Any thought Zilla on the pre-exhaustion workout for hypertrophy? 

Side note: Went back to regular bench this week with reps of 10 and looked back in my records. That last 2 months costed me some serious poundage.


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## Beezy (Dec 7, 2017)

MrRippedZilla said:


> The implications for hypertrophy are fairly profound too.
> 
> no need for the pissy weight 20 rep "feel the burn" pushdowns.



Well sh*t...
It’s such a great pump though.


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## tinymk (Dec 7, 2017)

I am also a close-grip bench instead of JM presses guy...I like to do between 1-4 reps on CG's and then I will finish em off with high volume moderate weight pushdowns or a rep out on close-grips. I have mixed and matched these for over a decade and my bench has always been solid. You gotta pound those triceps, I have a whole training day to max effort movements like floorpress, board or pinpresses and follow these with heavy close-grips. 
Great info Zilla!!


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## Seeker (Dec 7, 2017)

I was big on close grip bp until I started floor pressing and pin pressing. It's a step up from regular close grip bp. Just my experience.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 7, 2017)

ECKSRATED said:


> Close grip too. I recommend close grip over jm because it's closer to being a comp bench and will carry over more (in my experience). Jm press is good when done right but it can be a dangerous exercise when going heavy. Be careful. People ask me all the time how to get a stronger bench and my answer is always the same, heavy close grip. I'm talking 1-4 rep range. It's a power movement so u d dont need higher reps. Use extensions and other shit at higher reps for hypertrophy.





tinymk said:


> I am also a close-grip bench instead of JM presses guy...I like to do between 1-4 reps on CG's and then I will finish em off with high volume moderate weight pushdowns or a rep out on close-grips. I have mixed and matched these for over a decade and my bench has always been solid. You gotta pound those triceps, I have a whole training day to max effort movements like floorpress, board or pinpresses and follow these with heavy close-grips.
> Great info Zilla!!





Seeker said:


> I was big on close grip bp until I started floor pressing and pin pressing. It's a step up from regular close grip bp. Just my experience.



Interesting contrast 

Ecks and Tiny do you guys think you prefer close grip because of the specificity for PL competition versus seek who is looking for maximum hypertrophy?


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## tinymk (Dec 7, 2017)

PillarofBalance said:


> Interesting contrast
> 
> Ecks and Tiny do you guys think you prefer close grip because of the specificity for PL competition versus seek who is looking for maximum hypertrophy?


Yes I do.  Just over the years I have found these work best for me to get a big press on bench


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 7, 2017)

PillarofBalance said:


> Interesting contrast
> 
> Ecks and Tiny do you guys think you prefer close grip because of the specificity for PL competition versus seek who is looking for maximum hypertrophy?



Close grip is huge for strength gains. I wouldnt say its the best option for hypertrophy but can still be done for it. It's a power movement. Pin press and floor press shouldn't be your first choice for hypertrophy either. There's better choices.


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## Seeker (Dec 7, 2017)

The floor press is without question  definately a tricep mass builder. A whole upper body mass builder even.  It is all upper body movement without any leg drive assistance. Not to mention it has no stress on my shoulders. Another key element I can feel huge tension on my triceps using big weights while minimizing   joint discomfort like I get with like skull crushers. I would have to say floor presses are probably at the top when it comes to maximising hypertrophy and probably even gaining strength. But again, this is my own experience


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 7, 2017)

snake said:


> Okay so you confirmed my shitty bench is do to my shitty triceps. Thanks
> 
> On another note; I have been doing a pre-exhaustion for my chest for the last 8 weeks. Looks like this: cable cross overs (10 reps) and right to flat bench (10 reps), 4 sets. The idea is to take out those tris but damn, I'm not convinced it does much more for the chest then just bench. I'm old school and gauge the quality of my workout by not only the weights and reps but also my DOMS. (Shut it Doc Panda!) I think there's much to be said for just plan old benching for chest development.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I always thought that pre-exhaustion was kind of stupid. Isolating a major muscle group before a compound lift is going to limit my total load on that lift, so why the **** would I do it? Mechanical load is THE greatest stimulus for muscle growth, I had no interest in limiting that. 

Your experience goes together well with the data. An ever more relevant study for you is this. They did 1x10RM fly before 1x10RM on bench and found chest activation was the same but delt & tricep activation went up. Basically, your chest is tired so the other muscles take other the load - complete opposite of what pre-exhaust is "supposed" to achieve but, at the same time, makes a lot of logical sense. Pre-exhausting chest before bench doesn't work. It just doesn't.  

The fact that it works for triceps, and not chest or delts, is really interesting (I know I've said that a lot in this thread but it is!). Makes me think about methods to bring up other weak points - biceps, etc. Backs up some training methods I use for clients.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 7, 2017)

On the CG vs floor press topic, both are good compound lifts for hypertrophy and I personally don't see a big difference in this regard. I'll add dips into this category too, despite not being a fan of it myself since I don't like the idea of teaching my shoulder to get into that sort of a position, it will work well for growth. Going pretty heavy on any of these 3 after some lighter isolation work seems like a solid strategy. 

In terms of specificity to the bench, I agree with Ecks - the CG bench seems to have a lot more going for it. It's a more explosive lift compared to the traditional bench and that makes it much more interesting to experiment with.
Like, we know muscle activation is key to getting stronger but it's also even more important when it comes to generating power (explosiveness), which is done by increasing the rate of force development (RFD). Well, one of the key factors to RFD is activating your muscles as early as possible. And we already know that doing some isolation work before the CG bench will increase tricep activation even more. So your improving the explosiveness of an already explosive lift. By rapidly improving the activation rate of your triceps, the main muscle group involved in heavy bench work, and your ability to generate power - your bench should benefit tremendously. 
I *think* I basically described why what works for Ecks works for Ecks. And it makes perfect sense.


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 7, 2017)

I'm gonna try doing some tri work before my next close grip day and see how it goes. Shit I havent done that in years. I also wanna try hitting some tricep work before my max effort bench day days. My competition bench grip is pretty narrow with alot of tricep involved, so maybe itll work on bench for me too. Good discussion here.


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## Maijah (Dec 7, 2017)

So pre exhausting your Tris before a compound lift leads to better tricep stimulation/growth, however doing the same does not for chest? Did I read that right?


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 7, 2017)

Maijah said:


> So pre exhausting your Tris before a compound lift leads to better tricep stimulation/growth, however doing the same does not for chest? Did I read that right?


Yep, you read it right. That's what makes it so interesting - the effectiveness of pre-exhaustion seems to depend on the muscle, and lift, in question. 
And keep in mind we have 3 studies showing this now. Pre-exhausting chest before bench is counterintuitive.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 7, 2017)

I'm in the same boat as X and tiny. My competition bench has my pinkies barely touching the rings. "Close grip" is maybe an inch or so narrower on each side. 

There are many people with a strong wide bench. But the best of the best always seems to be fairly narrow.


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## snake (Dec 7, 2017)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Yep, you read it right. That's what makes it so interesting - the effectiveness of pre-exhaustion seems to depend on the muscle, and lift, in question.
> And keep in mind we have 3 studies showing this now. Pre-exhausting chest before bench is counterintuitive.



I never did it but I'm going to flip that; one set of bench and right to cables and see what comes of it. I'll let you know what I think in a few months.


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## tinymk (Dec 7, 2017)

For what it is worth, he is a quick video of the meat and potatoes of a big bench(for me). 
Floorpresses, 
2-1/2" & 4" pinpresses(measured from the chest to the bar). Deadweight on the pins no rebound effect. 
Close-grips with 100lb of chains. Brutal....The harder you push the heavier it gets. 
Close-grip bench--closest accessory exercise to a competition bench. I bench narrow so I am in 2 fingers from my competition grip. 

Hope it is useful to someone on the board..


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## snake (Dec 7, 2017)

tinymk said:


>



Sorry but I couldn't help noticing the dude at the water fountain!


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## Mythos (Dec 15, 2017)

Interesting stuff! Thanks!


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## Mythos (Dec 15, 2017)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Honestly, I always thought that pre-exhaustion was kind of stupid. Isolating a major muscle group before a compound lift is going to limit my total load on that lift, so why the **** would I do it? Mechanical load is THE greatest stimulus for muscle growth, I had no interest in limiting that.
> 
> Your experience goes together well with the data. An ever more relevant study for you is this. They did 1x10RM fly before 1x10RM on bench and found chest activation was the same but delt & tricep activation went up. Basically, your chest is tired so the other muscles take other the load - complete opposite of what pre-exhaust is "supposed" to achieve but, at the same time, makes a lot of logical sense. Pre-exhausting chest before bench doesn't work. It just doesn't.
> 
> The fact that it works for triceps, and not chest or delts, is really interesting (I know I've said that a lot in this thread but it is!). Makes me think about methods to bring up other weak points - biceps, etc. Backs up some training methods I use for clients.



It's funny, I always thought that this WAS the point of pre-exhaust! (To weaken more dominant groups to hit other ones harder making them compensate. )


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## TRUSTNME (Jan 2, 2018)

Very good post.  Thanks for posting.  Sometimes we forget how much of a difference having reminders, knowledge, adds to better performance conditioning and PR on bench.


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