# Discussion on programming



## Strength athlete (Dec 21, 2015)

I hope that everyone has been having a terrific holiday season. I was just curious to know the personal preferences of the trained members here regarding load, and volume regulation. When programming a training block, who prefers controlling loads by a set scheme of sets/reps compared to the percentage of their 1rm, and who prefers to use the auto regulation methods utilized in rpe style training (load drops, fatigue percents, etc.), or even a combination of both styles. I have used both styles of training with success, and was just curious to see what others here feel give them the best results. I know this question leaves a broad range of possibilities unaccounted for when discussing program design, but for a summarized approach, what do you feel has been the most beneficial towards your training goals.


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## BiologicalChemist (Dec 21, 2015)

Strength athlete said:


> I hope that everyone has been having a terrific holiday season. I was just curious to know the personal preferences of the trained members here regarding load, and volume regulation. When programming a training block, who prefers controlling loads by a set scheme of sets/reps compared to the percentage of their 1rm, and who prefers to use the auto regulation methods utilized in rpe style training (load drops, fatigue percents, etc.), or even a combination of both styles. I have used both styles of training with success, and was just curious to see what others here feel give them the best results. I know this question leaves a broad range of possibilities unaccounted for when discussing program design, but for a summarized approach, what do you feel has been the most beneficial towards your training goals.



As you said both styles work. I've always approached my training with structured full body split muscle routine 6-7 days a week with a range of reps/sets..but over the years I've ditched the reps/set range and just workout each muscle as many for as long as I feel like I need to, until failure. I always work up heavy first to the weight I can rep 8, 10 or 12 for the heaviest with proper form. I try to hit this heavy max rep range for at least 3 sets. Then I'll begin to work down (pyramid/superset) some times with 30-60 second rest until I can barely push the weight at a light load. I always try to use high volume on all my lifts but also get lighter higher reps in there. Sometimes I'll even go heavier at 5-6 reps but still include the lighter weights till failure. Depending on the day I like to get my heavy lifts done first, squats, dead's, chest press, back, shrugs and work the smaller muscle isolation exercises after. For me the key is not neglecting any muscle groups and training them all with equal intensity along with diet. No matter what routine you're on anyone should grow.


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## bigben66 (Dec 21, 2015)

Depends on your goals OP...

Are you training for strength, or hypertrophy?

Cutting  or bulking?


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## Strength athlete (Dec 21, 2015)

Your style of training sounds very similar to what I use when taking a block away from my standard programming. I will use varying exercises at many different rep ranges while trying to increase total volume over the designated time frame that I have set. From the obvious point of increasing working capacity in the muscle groups associated with the competition lifts, it has also allowed my body to recover from the beating I had been placing on it. I however have found that I can only use this style of training for a maximum of 5-6 weeks before my competition lifts begin to drop significantly. The longer I stay away from training the low, and mid ranges in the actual competition lifts, the more my absolute strength drops in the big 3. I am fairly certain that it has more to do with deterioration in psychoneural factors more so than actual physiological changes. Thank you for sharing your training style in such detail. Its responses such as yours that make this site great.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 21, 2015)

Auto regulation tends to bring about much quicker results as it allows you to lift what you want/can. Going by a % 1rm will bring steady progress but a bit slower usually. 

Some haven't figured out how to create periodization with their rpe or rir systems and therefore it becomes linear progression. After some time progress will stop or go back just as you have seen. 

Undulating assistance lifts, sets and reps and rpe of competition lifts will avoid this problem altogether. 

One option is if you tend to do only 1 to 2 meets per year then do %1rm training in the off season and use rpe to peak. Or the opposite. 

I tend to run my clients on a system that keeps them conditioned for a heavy triple. This way they can jump into a meet with only a few weeks notice. Tapering to a single is quick and almost painless.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 21, 2015)

After my meet I'm gonna run the Back to Base X program. Heard it's pretty wild.


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## DF (Dec 21, 2015)

The hell did he just say?


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 21, 2015)

I like DUP with the RPE system, but I train with Pillar and we think the same.

I've run Sheiko programming and I just wasn't a fan. Linear progression is great for a couple months as a novice. 

When I'm peaking I like to use 1rm % with the DUP. That's the only change I make. If I'm not feeling great on a training day, I want to try to battle through it during a peak.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 21, 2015)

Dup and rir? And just when I thought I was getting the hang of some lingo...


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## bigben66 (Dec 21, 2015)

I'm guessing you guys are predominantly powerlifters then?


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 21, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> I'm guessing you guys are predominantly powerlifters then?



Yes. The board was supposed to be called ugpowerlifting.com


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## Seeker (Dec 21, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> I'm guessing you guys are predominantly powerlifters then?



Not predominantly. What's great about UG is we have lifters of all types. Except crossfitters...well maybe a closet crossfitter or two. You know who you are! Also remember that this thread is posted in the powerlifting section of the board.


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## Joliver (Dec 21, 2015)

Is powerlifting like when the guys put the stones on the progressively higher platforms?


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 21, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Not predominantly. What's great about UG is we have lifters of all types. Except crossfitters...well maybe a closet crossfitter or two. You know who you are! Also remember that this thread is posted in the powerlifting section of the board.



LIES!!!!!



Cornelius Bigsby Coanbread J. Oliver said:


> Is powerlifting like when the guys put the stones on the progressively higher platforms?




No it's when weak guys put on funny suits that lift a bunch of weight for them while they eat ice cream and be fat


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## bigben66 (Dec 21, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Also remember that this thread is posted in the powerlifting section of the board.



Gotcha... still finding my way around...


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 21, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> Dup and rir? And just when I thought I was getting the hang of some lingo...



DUP = Daily undulating periodization
RIR = reps in reserve (another form of auto regulation where you save some reps, how many depends on a bunch of other things, in the tank to improve performance later on in a cycle)

A typical linear approach usually involves decreasing volume & increasing intensity from workout to workout, week to week, etc. This approach, as you may guess, isn't going to work for most people beyond the beginner stage because strength, or muscle, gains rarely come in a straight line like this and the sacrifice in volume for strength can limit hypertrophy.
Undulating periodization is one way to sidestep this issue. 

Here is an example of both a linear & undulating approach for strength using a weekly programme (easier to demonstrate vs daily):

Linear - 
4x10 @ 75%1RM for 4 weeks
3x8 @ 80%1RM for 4 weeks
3x5 @ 85%1RM for 4 weeks
3X3 @ 90%1RM for 4 weeks
As you can see, the intensity keeps going up while the volume drops.

Undulating:
3x12 @ 75%1RM for 2 weeks
5x5 @ 85%1RM for 2 weeks
4x8 @ 75%1RM for 2 weeks
5x5 @ 90%1RM for 2 weeks
4x5 @ 80%1RM for 2 weeks
6x3 @ 95%1RM for 2 weeks
Notice the more gradual changes in intensity/volume, the increase in variety, the wave like increases, etc - this is further emphasised with daily periodization using DUP. Its a much more realistic way of progressing in the gym for higher level lifters.

Hope that makes sense


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## DF (Dec 21, 2015)

Seeker said:


> Not predominantly. What's great about UG is we have lifters of all types. Except crossfitters...well maybe a closet crossfitter or two. You know who you are! Also remember that this thread is posted in the powerlifting section of the board.



It should really be named the *Fat & Ugly forum*.


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 21, 2015)

I'm on that max out on bench every week program. Gainzzzzzzzz


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 22, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> DUP = Daily undulating periodization
> RIR = reps in reserve (another form of auto regulation where you save some reps, how many depends on a bunch of other things, in the tank to improve performance later on in a cycle)
> 
> A typical linear approach usually involves decreasing volume & increasing intensity from workout to workout, week to week, etc. This approach, as you may guess, isn't going to work for most people beyond the beginner stage because strength, or muscle, gains rarely come in a straight line like this and the sacrifice in volume for strength can limit hypertrophy.
> ...



You mention dup for higher level lifters. Have you ever used this for a novice? Once technique is sound (enough) I have had a lot of success running my newer guys and girls through this. 

After 10 weeks or so they are taking old maxes for doubles or triples.


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## Milo (Dec 22, 2015)

Shit is confusing. I just listen to POB.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 22, 2015)

Milo said:


> Shit is confusing. I just listen to POB.



Lol... it's worth doing your best to understand. Read zillas post again. It's not difficult. 

Pay attention to the examples he shows. You can see in linear the number of reps goes down as the % goes up. 

With dup the numbers are all over the place with both reps and %.  To find out how many reps and sets with what percent you can use prilipen's chart. 

Programming isn't the hard part of being the coach.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 22, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> You mention dup for higher level lifters. Have you ever used this for a novice? Once technique is sound (enough) I have had a lot of success running my newer guys and girls through this.
> 
> After 10 weeks or so they are taking old maxes for doubles or triples.



I have found some success using a version of dup known as flexible nonlinear periodization but I put that down to the built in autoregulation aspect of the programme more than anything (individuals can pick which workout, with varying levels of intensity, they do & when they do it during the week). 
I also use periodization based on menstrual cycles for women but this is a work in progress (women are complicated) and, frankly, I don't think you want me to start talking about menstrual cycles 

Most of the time I do use a typical linear approach since I am a believer in keeping things as simple as possible for as long as possible. However, much like dietary approaches, the best training programme for each individual is the one they can adhere to....so I utilize dup & other forms of nonlinear periodization if its a better way to keep the client motivated & kicking ass in the gym. 
Do I think one is better than the other for beginners? Not particularly. Now if we were talking about hypertrophy rather than strength...slightly different story.

I will add that I use autoregulation pretty much from the get go with clients I coach hands on because of the benefits you highlighted in an earlier post.


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## thqmas (Dec 22, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> DUP = Daily undulating periodization...



Oh... And I thought we were all talking about the Democratic Unionist Party. Need to read all this thread again now.


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## Strength athlete (Dec 22, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> Auto regulation tends to bring about much quicker results as it allows you to lift what you want/can. Going by a % 1rm will bring steady progress but a bit slower usually.
> 
> Some haven't figured out how to create periodization with their rpe or rir systems and therefore it becomes linear progression. After some time progress will stop or go back just as you have seen.
> 
> ...



Sorry it has taken me a while to reply to my own thread, but with my schedule I fight for the time to actually sit down and write. I vaguely remember my days of using the classical linear periodization. It seems like it has been many years ago...oh wait...it has. lol. For quite some time I used a standard block periodization model, and had decent results. Once I began having difficulties hitting pr's, I started experimenting with manipulating volume loads in different fashions, alternating exercise selection in blocks,etc., all while trying to stay true to the concentrated loading principles associated with each block of training. Although some variations produced better results than others, the training seemed to be very limited in the results I received. I am a very hard headed person, and since i WAS still making gains, it was difficult to give in, and consider another style of training. I had heard, and read some material on RPE in the past, but had never really given it much thought. I then began reading into some of the material that Mike T. had been putting out. After reading much of his work, and watching several of his videos, I began to understand the concepts, and decided to start implementing it into my own training. I have made slight adjustments here, and there of course, but have found it to produce better results than anything I have done over the past several years. Just as you have said, I began undulating my set/reps, and RPE's for primary, and assistance lifts. From my personal experiences, I also fully agree with your comment regarding conditioning for a heavy triple. I always structure my programs, so that I hit a heavy triple on a primary or assistance lift at least once a week. Depending on my fatigue deficit in that week, I often times do more.(I know many people have moved away from a calculated fatigue deficit, but I still find it to work for myself).


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## Strength athlete (Dec 22, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> DUP = Daily undulating periodization
> RIR = reps in reserve (another form of auto regulation where you save some reps, how many depends on a bunch of other things, in the tank to improve performance later on in a cycle)
> 
> A typical linear approach usually involves decreasing volume & increasing intensity from workout to workout, week to week, etc. This approach, as you may guess, isn't going to work for most people beyond the beginner stage because strength, or muscle, gains rarely come in a straight line like this and the sacrifice in volume for strength can limit hypertrophy.
> ...



Thank you for writing this up. Your description for defining linear and undulating was excellent and easy for everyone to understand.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 22, 2015)

MrRippedZilla said:


> I have found some success using a version of dup known as flexible nonlinear periodization but I put that down to the built in autoregulation aspect of the programme more than anything (individuals can pick which workout, with varying levels of intensity, they do & when they do it during the week).
> I also use periodization based on menstrual cycles for women but this is a work in progress (women are complicated) and, frankly, I don't think you want me to start talking about menstrual cycles
> 
> Most of the time I do use a typical linear approach since I am a believer in keeping things as simple as possible for as long as possible. However, much like dietary approaches, the best training programme for each individual is the one they can adhere to....so I utilize dup & other forms of nonlinear periodization if its a better way to keep the client motivated & kicking ass in the gym.
> ...



Believe it or not menstrual cycles is actually a topic I need more info on lol... I have a couple female clients - not all of them that have really brutal periods.  I try to keep them in the gym and use auto regulation - if a 9 on squats that day is 135 so be it.  Sometimes we do a week of regression to practice things like hip hinges. Or sometimes we take the week to work out some of the pains in the hips, shoulders etc... 

At least the week is predictable though...


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 23, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> Believe it or not menstrual cycles is actually a topic I need more info on lol... I have a couple female clients - not all of them that have really brutal periods.  I try to keep them in the gym and use auto regulation - if a 9 on squats that day is 135 so be it.  Sometimes we do a week of regression to practice things like hip hinges. Or sometimes we take the week to work out some of the pains in the hips, shoulders etc...
> 
> At least the week is predictable though...



Its gotten to the point where I'm now working with more girls then guys so I kind of had to go deep into the menstrual cycle stuff this year...hurts my head just thinking about it. 

In general, I've seen better results placing the higher intensity sessions into the follicular phase (1st half) of a woman's cycle with the lower intensity stuff in the luteal phase (2nd half) - easier to do this with a weekly/monthly approach rather than dup for obvious reasons. Interestingly, their overall work capacity doesn't seem to be effected either way.
Figuring out whether each girl is androgen/estrogen/progesterone dominant takes some time but helps a lot since those who are more on the androgen/estrogen side seem to handle higher intensity programmes but crash more during the luteal phase (I've had girls lose 30% of the their working weight during this period) while those who are progesterone dominant tend to need more overall autoregulation and something like dup works fine with them. 

Similar to your approach, I do take the time during the luteal phase to do some basic GPP work since women seem to be further behind in this aspect than men. We also work on controlling their better levels of mobility, extra hip external rotation work to counteract the wide hips, etc. 

Overall, there is a lot of variability on whether women respond to menstrual periodization. Some see a huge difference, others see nothing at all....women are just more complicated than us


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## SuperBane (Dec 24, 2015)

What I seem to have overlooked is how do you go about deciding how many reps and sets are correct for Dup?
What is the basis of that theory? Trying to google it now but not seeing what I think I am looking for.
Coming from linear based programs I assume where everything is based and rotated off of a one rep max. Slowly building up to an all out effort or max effort day. (Comp) (i.e. 5x5 531 cube)

I've switched to what seems to be a slight conjugate method for example two bench days during the week, the heavy day would be floor presses or board presses or inclines and the second day would be flat bench at x % and then hypertrophic work.

Probably not doing that correctly but I'm not competing neither...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 24, 2015)

SuperBane said:


> What I seem to have overlooked is how do you go about deciding how many reps and sets are correct for Dup?
> What is the basis of that theory? Trying to google it now but not seeing what I think I am looking for.
> Coming from linear based programs I assume where everything is based and rotated off of a one rep max. Slowly building up to an all out effort or max effort day. (Comp) (i.e. 5x5 531 cube)
> 
> ...



There is no universal correct reps and sets. Prilepin's table will help you figure out what volume to use at a given intensity but even that is subject to your personal goals. Someone with a strength goal will typically work with higher intensities than someone with aesthetic goals and vice versa. 

Admin posted this link a while back in regards to a DUP question. It has some very good info on setting up a basic DUP template and then adapting it to suit your specific goals and experience. 

http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/daily-undulating-periodization/


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## SuperBane (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks Doc I will read it later.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 24, 2015)

Bane - many use prilipen's chart. Even that has some drawbacks. It came from weightlifting. Their lifts are a split second. Versus in PL our sets take much longer and are therefore more stressful (maybe).  Sometimes prilipen can be too much. But it's a good starting point for most.


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## SuperBane (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks I will start there and keep that in mind and make adjustments accordingly.


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## Go Away (Jan 17, 2016)

This thread is gold - especially the women discussion part.


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