# Keeping water retention/bloat down during cycle at university??



## BiologicalChemist (Feb 4, 2014)

I am debating on running a low dosage test cycle with some tbol or var starting soon but I'm currently in my spring semester. Will the lower dosed test along with aromasin (ai) 25mg every 3-4 days and a clean diet keep my facial bloat and water down? I'm studying allied health sciences and currently in a genetics/hormone course where we discuss anabolic mechanisms often therefore many people I'm around (teachers/students) look down upon anabolics, I dont want to make it obvious I'm on because I suddenly start to bloating on my face. I'm lean now. 8-10% bf. And yes I want to run gear during my semester...advice on water retention anyone?


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## hulksmash (Feb 4, 2014)

STRICTLY control sodium intake.

Letro. It gets a bad rep here but I love it and all professional bodybuilders use it for a reason-it's the best thing out there.

Control water intake.  People are drinking TOO MUCH water in the BBing world these past few years (e.g. "always drink 1-2 gallons daily!"). 

If they ever competed, they'd freak out over the amount (rather lack thereof) of water intake 2 days out haha


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## don draco (Feb 4, 2014)

Control sodium intake & estro and you'll be fine.  I'd run the AI every day.. aromasin has a half-life of approximately 9 hours in males.  However, neither of those orals aromatize.. so I guess you could get away with 25 (maybe less.. depends on the individual) every 3-4 days. Only way to know is to test it.  I'm assuming this is your first cycle?


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 4, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> STRICTLY control sodium intake.
> 
> Letro. It gets a bad rep here but I love it and all professional bodybuilders use it for a reason-it's the best thing out there.
> 
> ...


Sodium intake is a huge factor. 

But i don't agree with the water comment. The more water u put into your body the more you will let out. The less your drink the more it holds on too, it's our bodies survival instinct. I bloat very easy on aas and drinking a gallon and a half a day makes a huge difference for me.


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## BiologicalChemist (Feb 4, 2014)

No I've ran 1 previous cycle with test cyp and got up to 202lb 8% at 5'8" but I was bulking heavy then during break and didn't care about my bloat as much..I'd like to run a cycle as discrete as possible..So sodium to a minimum which is going to be difficult seeing as its in almost everything even healthy foods..and yeah I agree too much water is bad and too little is bad..I drink 9 x 16.9 Fl oz bottles a day thats roughly 1.3 gallons so I'll stay on that number for now. Thanks


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## gymrat827 (Feb 4, 2014)

drop your salt/sugar intake as much as you can.


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## DF (Feb 4, 2014)

You shouldn't bloat much on any of those compounds.


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## hulksmash (Feb 4, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Sodium intake is a huge factor.
> 
> But i don't agree with the water comment. The more water u put into your body the more you will let out. The less your drink the more it holds on too, it's our bodies survival instinct. I bloat very easy on aas and drinking a gallon and a half a day makes a huge difference for me.



That "hold on to water" response, which is placebo (Yes, the body does urinate less if water intake is excessively low), has no merit in our situation.

Due to lifting and other activity we do, lowering your water to a ~liter a day will cause you to shed that bloat. The demand we place is too much for the body to be bloated from an intake of ~1l water daily.


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## hulksmash (Feb 4, 2014)

BiologicalChemist said:


> No I've ran 1 previous cycle with test cyp and got up to 202lb 8% at 5'8" but I was bulking heavy then during break and didn't care about my bloat as much..I'd like to run a cycle as discrete as possible..So sodium to a minimum which is going to be difficult seeing as its in almost everything even healthy foods..and yeah I agree too much water is bad and too little is bad..I drink 9 x 16.9 Fl oz bottles a day thats roughly 1.3 gallons so I'll stay on that number for now. Thanks



The average person only needs 1liter a day.

Thus, cut it down to 2 liters/day (little over half a gallon).

You will lose water bloat.

Of course, now the 1gal BS is so engrained in everybody's ****in head that you need a gallon (what bullshit), so I don't expect you to listen and try.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 4, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> The average person only needs 1liter a day.
> 
> Thus, cut it down to 2 liters/day (little over half a gallon).
> 
> ...



I don't go by the gallon a day deal. The variables at play here can swing so much that it's hard to make any kind of general recommendation outside of 1gal/day. I've seen two methods used for water intake which seem to make sense to me. 

1) drink enough water to have 5 clear urinations per day with at least 2 coming post workout. 

2) drink 1L of water for every 1000cals expenditure. Someone with a TDEE of 3000cals would take 3L of water or more


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## hulksmash (Feb 4, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> I don't go by the gallon a day deal. The variables at play here can swing so much that it's hard to make any kind of general recommendation outside of 1gal/day. I've seen two methods used for water intake which seem to make sense to me.
> 
> 1) drink enough water to have 5 clear urinations per day with at least 2 coming post workout.
> 
> 2) drink 1L of water for every 1000cals expenditure. Someone with a TDEE of 3000cals would take 3L of water or more



The latter is why Pro BBers have a gallon with them in the gym (plus all of the metabolism boosting compounds they run, e.g. Clen, DNP, amphetamines, etc).

THUS THE REASON FOR GYM RATS DRINKING A GALLON OR MORE DAILY!

They saw the pro's in their vids drinking a gallon during a workout; someone tells a person to drink AT LEAST a gallon a day, people tell more people, and it becomes canonical law.

Ah, the nature of broscience...


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## #TheMatrix (Feb 4, 2014)

Clear urination?
Never heard of it....

EffUuu tren!  Jus kidding...I <3 you tren.

Well...actually I wasnt worried.  But...mine has a scent like minerals.  :/


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 5, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> That "hold on to water" response, which is placebo (Yes, the body does urinate less if water intake is excessively low), has no merit in our situation.
> 
> Due to lifting and other activity we do, lowering your water to a ~liter a day will cause you to shed that bloat. The demand we place is too much for the body to be bloated from an intake of ~1l water daily.



OK well someone like myself can not do a litre a day because I drink 3/4 of a gallon just at the gym not because jay cutler does it but because I sweat excessively and I'm thirsty. 

If i don't drink enough water throughout the day I can tell in the mirror because my face gets bloated as shit. We're not talking about pro BBers getting ready to go on stage were talking an average person here. Myself and plenty of people I know use more water to get rid of bloat and works great for us. Might not be the case for everyone but I wouldn't recommend only a liter especially while taking exogenous hormones.


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## coltmc4545 (Feb 5, 2014)

I'm the same way as ecks. If I don't keep my water intake up I bloat. Not so much in my face but my ankles. If I decrease water for 2 days, I start retaining water. I don't drink a gallon a day but close to it unless I'm running tren and then it's more like a gallon and a half. And yes you are correct hulk. 2 days out from competing, your water intake decreases to a minimum. But the pro's as you like to mention all the time, are also on a shit load of diuretics so water retention isn't exactly an issue. This is not a pro, or even anyone who is about to step on stage. He's looking for tips on how to keep from looking like a marshmellow. It's funny you said people see pros doing this or that and think they need to do it. But in your first paragraph you said people overlook letro and it gets a bad rap here but all pro BB's use it and you love it. Back to the OP. Bro control sodium but don't cut it out. Your body needs sodium. Your muscles, your heart included, need sodium to function properly. You'll be just fine on a low dose of test and real var or real tbol and have very minimal water retention as long as you have a clean diet (which by your avi it looks like you do), you stay on a mild AI like aromasin (12.5mg Ed or eod should be fine), and keep your water intake right where you have it. After all, you look way closer to stage ready drinking 1.3 gallons of water a day then someone who drinks only 1-2 liters a day.


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## BiologicalChemist (Feb 5, 2014)

Colt thanks for the post. I agree completely, I'll keep the water intake at around 1g and start counting my sodium to get an idea of where I stand.


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## hulksmash (Feb 5, 2014)

coltmc4545 said:


> I'm the same way as ecks. If I don't keep my water intake up I bloat. Not so much in my face but my ankles. If I decrease water for 2 days, I start retaining water. I don't drink a gallon a day but close to it unless I'm running tren and then it's more like a gallon and a half. And yes you are correct hulk. 2 days out from competing, your water intake decreases to a minimum. But the pro's as you like to mention all the time, are also on a shit load of diuretics so water retention isn't exactly an issue. This is not a pro, or even anyone who is about to step on stage. He's looking for tips on how to keep from looking like a marshmellow. It's funny you said people see pros doing this or that and think they need to do it. But in your first paragraph you said people overlook letro and it gets a bad rap here but all pro BB's use it and you love it. Back to the OP. Bro control sodium but don't cut it out. Your body needs sodium. Your muscles, your heart included, need sodium to function properly. You'll be just fine on a low dose of test and real var or real tbol and have very minimal water retention as long as you have a clean diet (which by your avi it looks like you do), you stay on a mild AI like aromasin (12.5mg Ed or eod should be fine), and keep your water intake right where you have it. After all, you look way closer to stage ready drinking 1.3 gallons of water a day then someone who drinks only 1-2 liters a day.



What I meant was AFTER those couple-few days of retaining water with a ~2L intake, you will start shedding water due to the demand we place on our bodies. The majority will lower intake, see that they begin to bloat 2-3 days in, get worried about it and jump back to a gallon.

OF COURSE, the biggest thing I'm preaching here is EXPERIMENT! 

And to add on to Colt-remember, salt was a COMMODITY back in the day. That's how precious sodium is to our bodies.


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## No1uknw (Feb 5, 2014)

What exactly is considered "low sodium" I see it preached all the time but how low should you go? Just stay at the RDA and you'll be fine?


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## losieloos (Feb 5, 2014)

You shouldn't care what other people think of you beta.


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## widehips71 (Feb 5, 2014)

The average person only needs 1L per day?  Where are you getting your information Hulk?  I'd like to review it because that sounds like broscience to me.  I may step on some dicks here, but recommending an average person drink 1L of water per day is dangerous.  A bodybuilder leading up to a contest for a couple days...sure.  But at that point they are severely dehydrated, and we're talking about sustaining a healthy level of hydration over a lengthy period of time.  Proper hydration is paramount in maintaining kidney function, cognitive functions, core body temperature, digestion, etc.

Below I have copied and pasted a few sentences from a reputable source of information concerning our topic at hand.  The report in its entirety is quite long so I don't expect anyone to read the whole thing.  The first references the fact that there are far too many variables involved to properly recommend an average requirement for any individual.  The second shows just how much water a person can lose through perspiration alone.

*The latest official effort at recommending water intake for different subpopulations was a part of the Dietary Reference Intake process of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science’s Report on Dietary Reference Intakes on Water and Electrolytes as reported in 2005. As a graphic acknowledgement of the limited database upon which to express Estimated Average Requirements for water for different population groups, the Committee and the Institute of Medicine were forced to state “While it might appear useful to estimate an average requirement (an EAR) for water, an EAR based on data is not possible”. Given the extreme variability in water needs that are not solely based on differences in metabolism, but also on environmental conditions and activities, there is not a single level of water intake that would assure adequate hydration and optimum health for half of all apparently healthy persons in all environmental conditions.

Water losses via skin (both insensible perspiration and sweating) can range from 0.3 L/h in sedentary conditions to 2.0 L/h in high activity in the heat and intake requirements range from 2.5 to just over 3 L/d in adults under normal conditions, and can reach 6 L/d with high extremes of heat and activity.*


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908954/


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## jyoung8j (Feb 5, 2014)

I have no ankles while on deca and dbol ive noticed lol


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## stonetag (Feb 5, 2014)

Saying that you will drink X Amount of water a day is one thing but actually doing it is entirely another. You really need to say to yourself "I will drink water at these specific times during the day" Lets face it, kind of tough to drink when you're not thirsty at all. The time thing is all that will work for me.


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## mrSlate (Feb 5, 2014)

How much sodium is to
Much sodium when on cycle? I know some have said strictly controlling sodium has helped keep Bp and bloat down, but was there any specific totals?


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## BiologicalChemist (Feb 6, 2014)

IMO I think counting your sodium everyday or any calories for that matter should only be done a few times or at least until you get used to your diet (portions)  and your body's response to your diet. I'm doing a project for my nutritional science course now and its all on macros and calorie counting etc...today  I consumed 2740mg of sodium out of 3205 calories total, along with 9 x 16.9fl oz of water (1.3g) and my diet is very clean, but it goes to show how quickly the sodium adds up. These food companies load their products with sodium for taste to compensate for their lower " more appealing" caloric nutrition labels. According to my text book, "Nutrition Science & Applications 3rd edition by Lori A. Smolin" the Dietary Reference Intake recommended for male individuals ages 19-30y is 1.5grams..or 1500mg of sodium a day. This to me sounds very low but its based off a 2000 calorie diet and doesn't factor in individual metabolisms or a bodybuilding workout routine along with lots of water intake, so I feel 2740mg a day is a good number. If you're preparing for a competition it's a different story obviously. If you wanted to you could easily minimize 2/3 of that sodium intake but you'd be eating a very selective few types of food sources for that shredding time period containing mostly protein and or healthy lipids (ex. egg whites)...interesting book, all other daily nutrient intakes can be found at www.nap.edu


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## BiologicalChemist (Feb 6, 2014)

And Hulk is right, we do require a minimum sodium intake a day because our body does need it to function properly..also as for water intake drink w.e works for you (IMO the more the better) I cant physically drink over 9 bottles of water a day if I tried its a lot but I definitely feel very healthier when I do put down that 1.3gallons... just don't forget to factor in supplements like pre-workout stimulants,  and like widehips said, your average daily water loss considering environmental conditions and workout intensity. Anyways that's what I'm doing! Lets all just eat clean yea?


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## RJ (Feb 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> The average person only needs 1L per day?  Where are you getting your information Hulk?  I'd like to review it because that sounds like broscience to me.  I may step on some dicks here, but recommending an average person drink 1L of water per day is dangerous.  A bodybuilder leading up to a contest for a couple days...sure.  But at that point they are severely dehydrated, and we're talking about sustaining a healthy level of hydration over a lengthy period of time.  Proper hydration is paramount in maintaining kidney function, cognitive functions, core body temperature, digestion, etc.



this^. obviously some of you have never heard of negative feedback loop. like ecks said, its basic human physiology. This is why if you starve yourself you don't lose fat alone as an anorexic believes. We save the good cuz our bodies are designed to survive, and in the case of H2O, if you don't drink enough, your body will go into negative feedback and you will retain as much as possible so the things the guy i quoted won't happen (renal failure, etc.). Drinking only a liter a day is ignorant. And so is anyone suggesting that, especially to guys who should be training hard. I will agree that everyone is different. Some can operate on less water than others, but more water in forces more water (and toxins and other shit) out. Drinking enough water is the best treatment for fluid retention. When the body gets less water, it perceives this as a threat to survival and begins to hold on to every drop. Water is stored in extra cellular spaces (outside the cells). This shows up as swollen feet, legs and hands. And using competition prep is ignorant as well as anyone who's competed and done WELL will tell you that you drink a shit ton the days leading up to the decrease in water. This forces that water into the muscle and out of the subcutaneous layer making you look big, full and RJH... uh... i mean awesome! Of course you are also manipulating sodium, carbs and etc. So again, using that as any sort of analogy is also ignorant. 

Water retention is due to a few things typically:

1. Poor hydration. Again, don't be an idiot. Drink more than a liter a day. 
2. Poor diet. This can mean sodium intake, carbs, fat, whatever. again, everyone is different. Here's the funny thing about sodium. Your body can only handle sodium in a certain concentration and it retains water to dilute it. You know what you do to dilute it faster and get rid of that extra water? ding ding ding, MORE ****ING WATER!!!
3. Certain hormones (and this doesn't mean start a shit ton of Letro or any AI unless just because), but as i said before, this is all dependent on the person. I have a friend who had an E2 reading of 1000. Thats right, a one and three zeros. And he was always lean as hell. No broke dick issues. No gyno. Nothing. He's a hippie vegetarian, so maybe that had an effect? Who knows. I will say this, he wasn't drinking a measley 1 liter of water a day. 

And let us not forget, as we forget about water retention and renal failure for a minute, water suppresses the appetite naturally and helps the body metabolize stored fat. Studies have shown that a decrease in water intake will cause fat deposits to increase, while an increase in water intake can actually reduce fat deposits. Here's why: The kidneys can't function properly without enough water. When the kidneys don't work to capacity, some of their load is dumped onto the liver. One of the liver's primary functions is to metabolize stored fat into usable energy for the body. If the liver has to do some of the kidney's work, it can't operate at full throttle. As a result, it metabolizes less fat, more fat remains stored in the body, and weight loss stops. 

So not only does more water mean less retention, but it also can help with fat loss, which some of us need more than others. Do yourself a favor. Don't drink a liter a day. Drink at least 4 of them. And if you feel your need more, or you are a sweat hog like ecks and i in the gym, drink more. I can drink almost a gallon a day in the gym. But come to think of it its probably cuz i met Arnold once in 1993 and saw him do it. I'm such a jackass!


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## RJ (Feb 6, 2014)

and for all you internet pornstars out there, more water has shown to increase ejaculate volume and force. So even if you wanna be bloated and fat, drinking water will help you shower that broad you picked up at the QT next to the Taquito stand like Peter North. Even if you have a dick like Peter Cottontail


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 6, 2014)

That's why I'm so in love with this manly man they call rj. Sexy bastard.


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## hulksmash (Feb 6, 2014)

widehips71 said:


> Water losses via skin (both insensible perspiration and sweating) can range from 0.3 L/h in sedentary conditions to 2.0 L/h in high activity in the heat and intake requirements range from 2.5 to just over 3 L/d in adults under normal conditions...
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908954/



You just helped MY point-a gallon is not needed.

Also, we need a definition of "high activity"-1-1.5 hours of weight lifting is more than likely NOT considered "high activity".

Thus, 2liters would be PLENTY for the weightlifter (as I mentioned).


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## hulksmash (Feb 6, 2014)

RJH said:
			
		

> etcetc



1) Only mention of pro's day out with water intake is that "people would be suprised at the lack of water intake"

2) for the lifter, I said ~2liters

3) inb4 i nerd out on the feedback loop; more water=more retention


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## Seeker (Feb 6, 2014)

I drink when I'm thirsty. I'll have a few glasses of water before I train and that's as as far as I go to force myself to drink water. I was a believer in that gallon a day philosophy but not anymore. 

I drink when I'm thirsty.


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## hulksmash (Feb 6, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I drink when I'm thirsty. I'll have a few glasses of water before I train and that's as as far as I go to force myself to drink water. I was a believer in that gallon a day philosophy but not anymore.
> 
> I drink when I'm thirsty.



This..


As long as people experiment


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 6, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I drink when I'm thirsty. I'll have a few glasses of water before I train and that's as as far as I go to force myself to drink water. I was a believer in that gallon a day philosophy but not anymore.
> 
> I drink when I'm thirsty.



This is what I normally do...during the summer I end up drinking around 2-2 1/4 gallons a day. I'm a thirsty fukker.


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## widehips71 (Feb 6, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> You just helped MY point-a gallon is not needed.
> 
> Also, we need a definition of "high activity"-1-1.5 hours of weight lifting is more than likely NOT considered "high activity".
> 
> Thus, 2liters would be PLENTY for the weightlifter (as I mentioned).



I wasn't saying a gallon was necessarily needed, just that 1L per day isn't enough for the average person.

No need in splitting hairs over what high activity levels are.  I agree that I wouldn't consider weightlifting in a climate controlled gym at the upper end of the scale either.  

And 2L may indeed be all the OP needs.  But as the first paragraph I quoted states, it's impossible to assume an average requirement for any individual because there are too many variables to account for.  So I will also agree that "experimentation" is fine, so long as a person didn't deprive themselves of water when thirsty just because they believe they've reached a preconceived quota on their daily intake.  But honestly, aren't we really over analyzing this?  I feel confident in saying...drink when you're thirsty.  But that just sounds too simple I guess


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 6, 2014)

Bottom line is you should Guage your water intake based on how dark/clear your urine is.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 6, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Bottom line is you should Guage your water intake based on how dark/clear your urine is.



Back to what I was saying earlier. This is Lyle McDonald's recommendation also: drink enough water so that you have 5 clear urinations a day (assuming no vitamins like multi or B-complex are taken) and at least 2 of those should come after training.


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## woodswise (Feb 6, 2014)

Drinking a gallon a day is more than broscience, it is good for your kidneys, especially as you put more stress on them (i.e. with more compounds, more protein, etc.), the more water you drink, the less stressful it is for your kidneys, because they work better with less concentrated blood plasma.  Ask any doctor.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 6, 2014)

woodswise said:


> Drinking a gallon a day is more than broscience, it is good for your kidneys, especially as you put more stress on them (i.e. with more compounds, more protein, etc.), the more water you drink, the less stressful it is for your kidneys, because they work better with less concentrated blood plasma.  Ask any doctor.



Most, maybe even all, the compounds we use in this community get metabolized in the liver. Most AAS is extremely safe on the renal system as evidenced by the fact that ppl on dialysis machines with other muscle wasting diseases like HIV are given AAS.


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## RJ (Feb 6, 2014)

and let me say to this hulk guy, as i'm new to this board. Im an old fart who has been doing this too long and i'm quite stuck in my ways. I hate broscience as well, and i am a firm believer of personal experience over studies. Some may in fact only need ~1L a day. i don't, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't. 

I think we can all agree that some people like the geared up bloated look. Others like to be dry as possible. And even though i don't run cycles anymore, I personally just don't wanna be dead. So i drink a good bit. Plus I'm a sucker for M&Ms and Monster drinks, so i need to flush as much as possible. 

That post may have sounded like i was calling you specifically an idiot. Again, i'm just old and grumpy. So sorry if that long diatribe sounded asshole-ish. My name is RJ and I'm an asshole. Nice to meet all of you. mlp


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## hulksmash (Feb 8, 2014)

RJH said:


> and let me say to this hulk guy, as i'm new to this board. Im an old fart who has been doing this too long and i'm quite stuck in my ways. I hate broscience as well, and i am a firm believer of personal experience over studies. Some may in fact only need ~1L a day. i don't, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
> 
> I think we can all agree that some people like the geared up bloated look. Others like to be dry as possible. And even though i don't run cycles anymore, I personally just don't wanna be dead. So i drink a good bit. Plus I'm a sucker for M&Ms and Monster drinks, so i need to flush as much as possible.
> 
> That post may have sounded like i was calling you specifically an idiot. Again, i'm just old and grumpy. So sorry if that long diatribe sounded asshole-ish. My name is RJ and I'm an asshole. Nice to meet all of you. mlp



You didn't sound like that, and my skin is extremely thick.

If it weren't, I'd be crying by now over the flak everyone gives me for my dosages


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