# The GURU: Raw & Uncensored



## K1 (Aug 29, 2012)

*Dan Duchaine: RAW and UNCENSORED*
by: The Sandwich (April '98 IRONMAN)

The following interview in no way reflects the beliefs and opinions of IRONMAN magazine. By agreement with the author, we present the interview with very few changes; however, we did have to edit some things out on advice from our attorney. (For an unedited audiotape of the entire interview, see the Editor’s Note at the end of this article). IRONMAN relinquishes any liability regarding hearsay and rumor presented and does not condone the use of illegal drugs. We choose to print the following because much of the information is pertinent to bodybuilding and shows insight into the reality of the sport. IRONMAN is an open forum.

I’m fat, 20 years old, and I’ve never been laid. My life sucks, and I hate to work out, so I’m really lazy and miserable. One of the few things that can cheer me up, however, is talking to bodybuilding icon Dan Duchaine. Dan is honest—brutally so. If you ask him something, he’ll give you a totally unrehearsed answer. He doesn’t pull punches; he throws them! If you want the unbiased truth about bodybuilding, drugs, supplements and training, look no further than guru Dan Duchaine.


The following interview is raw and totally uncensored, so before you read it, lock your doors, put the kids to sleep and hold on tight.


*TS:* I want to start off by getting some information on your new newsletter, Dirty Dieting. It’s pretty interesting and hardcore. What prompted you to do it?
*DD:* I promised people who bought my book Body Opus that there would be a follow-up newsletter because the book was written quite some time ago, while I was locked away in prison. I think I finished writing it in 1993, and here it is 1997. I don’t want to keep updating the book, so a newsletter is a better way. Plus, I was hoping we would make some nice money on the newsletter because usually, if you do it right, you can make more money than you can by selling magazines. But that isn’t the case with this newsletter. It’s at best break even and maybe in the red a little bit this year. Hopefully in ’98 we’ll do better. [To subscribe to Dirty Dieting, call 1-500-367-4531.]

*TS:* This newsletter seems to be a lot more hardcore than Muscle Media, the magazine you write for now. Is there a reason you strayed from Muscle Media, or did you want your own forum?
*DD:* Not my decision. Muscle Media isn’t a hardcore magazine anymore and never will be. I mean, they’ve really sold out, and they don’t want any drug or steroid articles in the magazine whatsoever.

*TS:* Wow! That was their claim to fame. What happened?
*DD: *[Nervous] You’ll have to ask someone other than me. I have no idea. Obviously—unless they have an agenda I’m not aware of—the point of changing a magazine is to increase the readership and eventually sell more supplements. My gut feeling is it’s not working, but I could be wrong because I haven’t seen sales figures. I’ve heard a lot of disgruntled people, but that’s just the kind of people I hang out with, ya know?
But remember, those kind of people, the hardcore, are a pretty minor audience. I guess the rationale is that whatever subscribers they lose in the process will be offset by new subscribers or readers.

*TS:* Since you started writing about it, DNP [dinitrophenol] has certainly become one of the hottest and most-talked-about drugs. You’ve mentioned that it can almost double metabolic rate and help people drop bodyfat like mad. What else can you tell us about this chemical, and are any of the top bodybuilders using it?
*DD:* I don’t know. I haven’t worked with any top bodybuilders, and I didn’t really want to. I used some amateurs and some willing participants simply because even though you think you know everything there is to know about something, you really don’t know until you actually work on it with a whole bunch of people. I also hired a research assistant over the summer to pull research on DNP—stuff that wasn’t available at the medical libraries here. So I got research back to 1932, when everything started. I learned quite a bit from reading the new—well, old—research we pulled, and I think we can do a better job with DNP with much less discomfort than people were having before.

*TS:* What should they do differently?
*DD:* DNP doesn’t act like ephedrine or clenbuterol, [with which] you can really chart how well the drug is working with your body temperature, because with DNP there’s a lot of regulation that the body does between increasing heart rate, skin dilation and respiration. Even though you feel warm, your thermometer won’t register a change because heat is being dissipated so swiftly. The problem is, just because you could tolerate something like 100 degrees or so doesn’t mean you’d want to. That’s an indicator that you’ve almost doubled your metabolic rate, and that’s getting in the danger zone. It’s not so much that the heat is going to do you in; it’s just that the low amount of ATP in the cell could really hurt you.

*TS:* Could you take some type of coenzyme like pyruvate to boost the ATP levels in the liver?
*DD:* Yes, you could do that; however, there’s a decrease of thyroid in the body after the first 48 hours of using DNP. Part of it has to do with ATP depletion in the liver, but the DNP also allows most of the thyroid to be unbound—the T4—so it’s excreted faster out of the body. So even though your TSH and your thyroid output are normal, you’re not getting as much thyroid available in the body because it’s shunted out. That’s why after 48 hours you’ll see a slight decrease in body temperature that you should restore by using Cytomel.

*TS:* What’s a safe dosage of DNP?
*DD:* Because you can double your metabolic rate, most people lose the weight so fast, they end up eating these amazing amounts of calories to keep up with the burning off; that’s when you’re using about seven or eight milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight. I think if you keep it to three or four milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight, you’ll be much more comfortable. You might be warm but not unusually so, and you won’t be sweating heavily. And eventually you’ll lose as much bodyfat as you want, even with no calorie restriction.

*TS:* Wow! No calorie restriction? Sounds good to me. But is this stuff dangerous in the long term as far as cancer—with DNP being a phenol and all?
*DD:* No. Well, that’s odd because someone mentioned in one of the discussion groups that all phenols in general are carcinogenic and mutogenic, but I’m not quite sure if that’s true because none of the research shows any kind of tumor acceleration or cancer growth. Even the cataract problem that surfaced all of a sudden in the mid-1930s—exclusively in women, for some odd reason—was due to a depletion of vitamin C and glutathione in the eyeball. Just two weeks ago on the news they were talking about cataracts and old age and how individuals should be using more vitamin C. So perhaps the whole cataract issue…can be avoided by taking more antioxidants.
*
TS:* You’ve said that you tried DNP about a year ago. Have you noticed any side effects now that you’ve had time to reflect?
*DD:* No, just that I probably dropped the weight too fast. There are a few things I learned about DNP afterward, through the research. It mentions that some individuals, when they’re on DNP for weeks at a time, stop losing bodyweight. The scale didn’t seem to budge, even though the scientists were measuring an elevated metabolic rate from oxygen burning. And they figured out that the body, in some strange way, was holding water. Once the subjects stopped taking DNP, most of it was flushed out with more urination. So you might be doing DNP and not show any weight loss, but when you come off it, suddenly you lose five pounds over three or four days from water [excretion].

*TS:* You’ve also written about a natural substance that may be as effective as DNP for fat loss. Can you give us more information on that?
*DD:* I have two sources, one of which I had to dig for at the UCLA [University of California at Los Angeles] medical library. It was very early [research]. One was purified extract of blowfly thoraxes [laughs]. The other might be an herbal substance that has some kind of fermentation, but I’ll have a better answer in another week or so when I find out what the compound is. I have the name of it, and I’ve done an Internet search, but I can’t find out what it is.

*TS: *So you think this might be a safe alternative to DNP?
*DD: *Um, I don’t think it’s necessarily safe, but it’s legal for interstate shipment.

*TS:* IGF-1. Are any of the top bodybuilders using it, and if so, how much? I heard [one pro] was I.V.ing the stuff.*
DD:* Well, I.V. would be the way to do it, just like growth hormone. But I’m not sure. It used to be a little easier to get a few years ago because Gro-Pep had an outlet in Utah. Now you have to get it from Australia direct. I don’t know. I assume some of [the pros] are still using it. I would estimate the dosage to be no more than 50 micrograms every time. That’s an odd circumstance because the human trials were done in milligrams per day, so it’s hard to believe that micrograms would have an effect, but who knows?

*TS:* Synthol [the compound you can inject directly into the muscle to make it swell] seems to be all the rage among top pro and amateur bodybuilders.
*DD:* Yeah, that’s odd because I haven’t seen the Olympia pictures yet, but I’m wondering which bodybuilder at the Olympia had remarkably bigger bodyparts this year as opposed to last.

*TS:* Do you think it’s safe in the long term?
*DD:* No, I don’t. But I can’t tell why it’s going to be unsafe. My gut feeling is that something bad is going to happen. I have a feeling the reason the oil doesn’t dissipate is somehow…. It’s hard to believe that an oil would stay in an area for months at a time unless there is some kind of collagen encapsulation going on, where the body is protecting itself from the substance. It would be just like a breast implant—smooth ones that don’t have the ripples and [contain] collagen.

*TS:* I remember you once said that injecting small amounts of silicone into the muscles would give a similar effect.
*DD:* I would sooner do that than I’d do Synthol.

*TS:* Didn’t bodybuilders in the ’70s do something like that?*
DD:* I broached this subject with two plastic surgeons, and Bruce Nadler [a plastic surgeon in the New York area] told me step by step how one could do this safely. And then my plastic surgeon in Los Angeles, who is into historical procedures, looked around in the literature and even asked a few old-time plastic surgeons, and they haven’t said anything about it. But it seems to me that it did happen.

*TS:* Hmm, so this might be better than injecting Synthol?
*DD: *Well, you know, although they have problems with direct injections of silicone, they’ve used silicone for decades to fluff up pock marks on surface skin, and that’s the same procedure. As long as it’s small, it’s going to encapsulate, and I don’t think it’s going to move.

*TS:* Let’s move on to something else. You’ve written about a new veterinary vaccine that may be beneficial to bodybuilders. Can you elaborate?
*DD:* Nope, I just got a little blurb on it off something, and I never really pursued it. I should, though, because all [the researchers] could say is what it did well, but since it’s for animals they didn’t say what it did that was bad for you. It must somehow affect insulin—either secretion or sensitivity.

*TS:* So what does it do exactly?
*DD:* Well, there’s anti-hormones that can slow down the pulse rate of growth hormone coming out of the pituitary, and I think that’s how it works. I don’t think it blocks so much the action of growth hormone; it just doesn’t allow the growth hormone to pulse out as well as it should.

*TS:* Speaking of growth hormone, Muscle Media has hinted that they have a growth-hormone-releasing compound that can be sold as a dietary supplement. Do you know anything about that?
*DD:* I think that’s foo-foo bunk. They don’t have it. If they did, they’d release it, and even if they did, it hasn’t been researched. EAS [which is owned by Bill Phillips, who also publishes Muscle Media] would never sell something like that. They’re too mainstream.

*TS:* Do you have any idea what they’re talking about?
*DD:* Obviously it must be some kind of protein that’s cleaved down into a peptide short enough to mimic that chain of releasing hormone.

*TS: *What about So Cal’s liquid creatine, Turbo Blast 600? Evidently, they’re saying this stuff is 600 percent more effective than regular powdered creatine. Is that true, and could it be something beneficial for most bodybuilders?
*DD:* The concept is good. The So Cal stuff is probably creatine with propylene glycol, and, yeah, it’s okay, but it’s expensive. You could just use six times the amount of powdered creatine from another source and get the same effect. But if you have a problem with gastric upset or diarrhea or just don’t want to do lukewarm creatine, maybe this is an alternative.

*TS:* Do you think their claims match up to their products?
*DD:* You have to realize that the only way you sell supplements in this industry as a newcomer is with hype. Basically, everybody has the same products, and you can either be an established company, like Twinlab, and the prestige somehow gets the product sold, or you can sell a product with hype. But if it doesn’t work, people aren’t going to keep buying it. MuscleTech went from nowhere to a major company just from hype and hammering away with advertising. [James] Bradshaw and [John] Cribbs [of So Cal] realize hype works, and they will do as much as they can without breaking laws.

*TS:* Without a doubt androstenedione is the hottest supplement on the market right now, and I’m sure the readers would like to know a little more about it, what it can do and the optimal dosage. I’ve been using 400 milligrams a half hour before my workout, and I’ve been getting pretty good results. Is that a proper dosage?
*DD:* It depends on what your liver can do with it. Women do a much better job of converting androstenedione to testosterone.

*TS:* Why? Higher estrogen levels?
*DD:* Well, you’re close. They have progesterone, and men don’t. You have to realize that progesterone both lowers estrogen and increases 17-beta hydroxy dehydrogenase, the major steroid enzyme that converts androstenedione to testosterone. Men don’t have much because they don’t have any progesterone. You can get around that by using some progesterone cream, and that would improve the conversion rate. You could probably take about 100 milligrams of pregnenolone along with your androstenedione, and that would be rapidly converted to progesterone.

*TS:* What about the other androstenedione derivatives, such as—
*DD:* Androdiol or the nor version?

*TS:* Both.
*DD:* Not too many companies have the nor version; I think its kind of expensive. It’s around $1,500 a kilo. It shouldn’t be much better, but the people who are using it are raving about it, so we’ll see.
The androdiol is quite potent. It’s a different enzyme conversion—it’s 3-beta rather than 17-beta. It’s a good androgen, so it’s converted right in the blood. It’s about three times testosterone more per milligram [than androstenedione], converted. I’m not sure if it’s exactly legal, but it can’t be that illegal because it’s in the same category as DHEA, I guess.

*TS:* Is this stuff dangerous?
*DD:* Quite androgenic. Even before it’s converted, it’s very androgenic, and some studies pointed out that it’s even more androgenic than testosterone.

*TS:* Couldn’t you take an anti-aromatase, like chrysin?
*DD:* Yeah, Osmo has a few hundred kilos coming in at a very attractive price. The thing is, since no one has really used it in humans, we’re just estimating that you need two grams. Of course, there is always the cheap idiot who only uses a little and then says, “Oh, this stuff doesn’t work.”

*TS:* Mwahaha. Yeah, I know what you mean. Let’s move on to steroids. What would be the ideal steroid dosage for, say, a bodybuilder who has never used them before? The general consensus is that a bodybuilder’s first cycle is the most effective.
*DD:* I don’t know. I haven’t used steroids for so long, it’s hard to say. In the old days we used much higher dosages—10 Dianabol a day and 400 to 600 milligrams of Deca-Durabolin every week. People think that’s a high dosage, but that was a starting dose 10 years ago.

*TS:* So there really is no answer.
*DD:* There are two answers. One is that you can only get so much anabolic effect from…. If they stick around for weeks at a time or 12 hours at a time, like orals, studies state that’s not the way your body pulsates steroids. So you have so much anabolic activity through the receptor, but some steroids, above a certain dosage, cause additional anabolic effects outside the receptor. The problem is, the type of steroids and the dosages with which this happens are extreme. The novice steroid user maybe wouldn’t want to ethically, morally or personally consider—or even financially—doing four grams a week, the dosage at which a lot of people say the magic begins to happen. You have Milos [Sarcev] going from 210 to 250, you know?

*TS:* I heard that was mostly insulin.
*DD:* You can tell that. Just shake hands. If they’re big and squishy and watery, then [the person is] on insulin and growth hormone.

*TS:* Let’s talk about pro bodybuilding for a second. If you look at pictures of bodybuilding contests from the late ’80s and compare them to the physiques of today, there’s a remarkable difference. Is the change mostly chemical?
*DD:* Yep. It also might be…. Whenever you get fat in the off-season and then diet it off, the muscle comes off too. These people are much leaner off-season than they ever used to be.

*TS:* So mostly that would be clenbuterol, insulin and growth hormone.
*DD:* Yes, plus back then they relied on a lot of really weak anabolics [because] they thought the precision and the exotic nature of them made them better, but because the availability isn’t there anymore, they’re falling back on the more androgenic steroids that happen to be more anabolic at the same time.

*TS:* Is it safe for a recreational bodybuilder to inject insulin—in the long and short term?
*DD:* Depends on how much. If they’re only talking about the old one I.U. per 15 pounds of bodyweight maybe once a day, then that’s okay. You’re not going to wreck your pancreas by injecting insulin, but you will wreck your insulin sensitivity. Hopefully, that will go back to normal. Maybe in a young person that would happen. I’m a little concerned with high-level insulin use in middle-aged people. One of the big parts of aging is a lowered insulin sensitivity. Most old people are borderline type-2 diabetics.

*TS: *Couldn’t you take Glucophage or Phenformin to help increase insulin sensitivity?
*DD:* You could probably do that, although Metformin hasn’t had much success. There are other things coming. The new research [points to] beta-3 agonists as being ideal because you get both insulin secretion and insulin-receptor uptake.

*TS:* Isn’t that herbal stuff Synephrine a beta-3 agonist?
*DD: *Even ephedrine has some beta-3 action. I don’t know about the other one you mentioned. There’s not much brown fat on most non-northern latitude adults, so I don’t think it’s much of an issue.

*TS:* So if a bodybuilder was using insulin once a day, how long should he or she stay on it?
*DD: *When you first start using insulin, if you don’t eat anything after the first hour and a half, you start getting shaky, but after a while at the same dosage you won’t. That means your blood sugar is maintaining itself, which means your cells aren’t accepting the insulin.
I have a friend who’s doing a very interesting experiment. He’s using moderate amounts of insulin and eating no carbs at all during the day. He eats so much protein that whatever glucose he needs, his body converts it from amino acids.

*TS:* So insulin isn’t all that dangerous if you use small amounts for short periods?
*DD: *Oh, you should be all right—unless you’re one of the unlucky people who get fat under their stomach from it.


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## K1 (Aug 29, 2012)

*TS:* Okay, why doesn’t the IFBB test for steroids and lower the judging standard and start rewarding physiques that are obviously [the result of lower dosages of these drugs]? Do the promoters make more money showing the freaks?
*DD:* It’s money. It is money. It’s the bread and butter of a select few people.

*TS:* So basically they don’t give a damn?
*DD:* Wayne DeMilia, Jim Manion and Ben Weider all need to make a living. Maybe Ben, at this point, could survive without it. All you need is these three—Ben, Wayne and Manion—to say, “We’re going to do steroid testing,” and it would happen overnight. Obviously, there is some kind of protection there, and I think it has to be money.

*TS:* That’s too bad. I think that since they are rewarding guys who are obviously pushing the limits, other bodybuilders feel that they have to up the dose just to be competitive.
*DD:* Yep. But you could also change the judging standard. That would work too.

*TS:* Yes, I agree. As a matter of fact, couldn’t a bodybuilding competitor sue the IFBB and Weider for not instituting the IFBB drug-testing rule?
*DD: *Why is it that one of those guys hasn’t? I thought that little Ron Coleman was going to do it at the Night of Champions, but it didn’t happen.

*TS:* A similar lawsuit happened in boxing, so I think that it could happen in bodybuilding.
There have been a few alleged and unconfirmed rumors that two of the top IFBB officials are involved in cocaine distribution and organized crime. Have you heard these rumors, and do you believe them to be true?
*DD: *Yeah, I heard that, but I don’t know. I’m far removed from that part of bodybuilding. I’m not into the competition, the whole sports organization, so I don’t really socialize or even talk to those people. All I can say is one thing: Every rumor I’ve ever seen in bodybuilding—no matter how bizarre it is—has always had a kernel of truth. I mean, a broad statement like “cocaine distribution” could be watered down to 10 years ago one official bought five keys, you know? That could be a kernel. But I don’t know what’s happening today.

*TS:* As far as the judging panel is concerned, something is really wrong. Dorian Yates keeps getting straight firsts across the board each and every year, regardless of how he looks.
*DD:* But, you know, in his favor, it’s very hard to say you’re worse when you come in just as hard or harder and 15 or 18 pounds heavier. I mean, the judging at the Mr. Olympia is unique. It’s much different than what happens in Europe. Just look at the results of the Grand Prix. It’s like two different judging standards.

*TS:* Do you think there’s a conspiracy going on?
*DD:* No, you have to realize that once the champ wins, the debit of the physique is ignored. Lee Haney, when he won, he didn’t have the best thighs or arms, and no one really marked him down. Lenda Murray has no calves. It seems that whatever debit the winner has, it’s okay to have the deformity or debit. Dorian has a big stomach.

*TS:* Huge! Do you know Nasser’s drug stack?
*DD:* Nope, I don’t. In the few times I’ve talked to Nasser, [I’ve noticed that] he doesn’t have all the money in the world, and he probably would use more money if he had more money. Remember, when you’re under contract, it’s very hard to hide money. If he’s living in California here and getting $250,000 a year, a good $100,000 of that is going to taxes, so he’s only got $150,000. And how much of that are you going to allot for drugs?

*TS:* Is $60,000 a good figure in terms of how much these guys are spending a year on drugs?
*DD:* Yeah, it’s mostly growth hormone, I would think. Steroids are not that expensive compared to growth hormone.

*TS:* Is growth hormone even worth taking? Some people say it sucks, but the pros are allegedly getting huge off of it.
*DD:* I think in conjunction with insulin it’s worthwhile.

*TS:* Any possible long-term side effects in cardiac valve changes?
*DD:* I don’t know. I’ve never heard of anyone’s dick getting bigger. We’ve noticed with the geriatrics, as soon as they stop the use of growth hormone, all the beneficial effects went away and they reverted. Their muscles went back to normal, and their fat content went back up. I’m wondering if the increased organ size with growth hormone stays after you come off the drug. I would think there’s some kind of organ shrinkage when the growth hormone is ceased.

*TS:* Is Skip La Cour natural?
*DD:* He does tend to pass the test and a polygraph.

*TS:* Do you think it’s possible for someone to naturally build that type of muscle mass?
*DD:* Oh, yes. It’s very unusual that a white guy can do it, but I must tell you that some of the best physiques are in federal and state prisons. And they have no drugs and shitty food but remarkable muscle mass.

*TS:* Which androstenedione derivative can you make Equipose from, 5-alpha?
*DD:* Oh, I forget. I could find out. It’s a scheduled drug already, so you can’t touch it.

*TS:* What about 5-alpha androstenedione? Is that something that may be beneficial?
*DD: *You could make it into a cream and rub it on your scrotum. You could take regular androstenedione, rub it on your scrotum and, hopefully 5-alpha reductase, which is highest in scrotal skin, could turn it into an anti-estrogen. Maybe I should come out with a product called Happy Sack. Ha ha.

*TS:* From my understanding, all of these new supplements were discovered by a guy named Pat Arnold. I’ve heard quite a bit about him on the Internet, and he seems to be an honest and genuine guy. Can you tell the readers a little bit about this guy, and does he stand to be a force in the supplement industry?
*DD:* I’ve kind of tried to guide him. I’ve suggested he go certain places for jobs, and I’ve encouraged him to do things. I’ve just nudged him at times in the right direction, but he’s gifted because he’s not only a chemist but a creative chemist, which is very unusual in this industry. I think he’s one of the minds that will change bodybuilding over the next decade.

*TS:* Wow! Okay, let me give you a scenario. If Ben and Joe Weider were stranded in the middle of the ocean and you were on a lifeboat that could hold only one more person, who would you save and who would you leave for the sharks?
*DD:* I’d probably throw Joe out because he’s almost dead anyway. If I was selfish, I’d throw Ben out because I’ve always gotten along with Joe. He gave me my first break. They seem to have kind of a grudge against me. There was some kind of nonsense a few years ago that some poor chump up in Sacramento was trying to get his deposit back for a Weider gym because they found out that he had a steroid conviction, and they said the Weiders have nothing to do with steroids and they wouldn’t give his money back. I did a deposition under oath saying that I was quite aware of their involvement, and they got pissed. They could have easily avoided that nasty situation by simply giving the damn money back and avoiding the deposition, but they get vindictive. Considering they do $225 million, they can be very petty at times.

*TS:* What was the involvement with steroids?
*DD:* Some of the people who used to work with them—Bill Reynolds, who is now dead, specifically—used to find select items that top bodybuilders just couldn’t find.

*TS:* Holy shit! Is that still going on?
*DD:* No, that was long ago. [The stuff] would come from a steroid dealer in Rhode Island. He would disguise the steroids as T-shirts, then he got busted. I remember Bill Reynolds crying—I was a steroid dealer at the time—and he’s saying, “I need some 200 milligram Deca, and I can’t find a good price.” Then he’d quote me a price, and I’m thinking, “God, I’m not a charity. I’m not going to give away my Deca at that low price.” I think he wanted to buy it at 25 cents an amp over my cost. I said, “I can’t help ya.”

*TS:* Are the pro bodybuilders getting their stuff from doctors now?
*DD:* No, I don’t think so. You know, everybody has their little method. I think there’s one guy in the West who specializes in supplying the pros with growth hormone.

*TS:* Do you prefer the fitness or bodybuilding girls?
*DD:* Denise Massino is pretty cool.

*TS:* Yeah, she is pretty good looking. She has those nude pictures.
*DD:* Yeah, I just sent away for those—and the video too.

*TS:* I’m going to name some names, and I want to get your immediate, unrehearsed response. Bill Phillips.
*DD:* I don’t know Bill. I never spent much time with him, and lately I seem to know him even less. I always used to think I knew where his magazine was going and why we were there, but now I don’t know. I could understand if I knew they were selling more magazines, but I just have this gut feeling that it’s not happening, so I can’t comment on it.

*TS:* Mike Mentzer.
*DD:* Severely mentally ill. Kind of pitiful, I think. He’s in denial. I mean, he’s wrong. He’s fucking wrong on everything he says, you know? If you do one set till failure and you don’t grow, his advice is, You’re training too much; cut back your training. If you do that, you’ll end up training once a year like he does.

*TS:* Dr. Michael Colgan.
*DD:* I wish he would do something about bodybuilding. He seems to be doing all these articles in Muscular Development that don’t [relate]. You either [write about] getting bigger, stronger and leaner, or just don’t do the article. But that’s what my idea of a muscle magazine should be.

*TS:* Bob Kennedy.
*DD:* I think it’s the success story of the decade. Musclemag is happening. I don’t find much to read in it, but it’s selling—it’s fat and it’s vibrant. It may not be right information, but a lot of people think it is, and he made a lot of money. And so has MuscleTech.

*TS:* I heard that the only thing he was getting from MuscleTech was advertising space revenue.
*DD:* Yeah, yeah. That’s the same as when Bill [Phillips] used to say, “I’m not the owner of this,” or “I have no involvement in that.” It may be true at the present time, but you might have a contract that all of a sudden gives you 10 percent of the company.

*TS:* How many times a day do you take a dump.
*DD:* Not every day, that’s for sure.

*TS:* What other projects are you working on? What’s under wraps?
*DD:* My DNP book. I’m still doing research on that. I’ve got these projects that aren’t related to bodybuilding, like the bicycle-manufacturing business, and I’m going to be a new father in a few months.

*TS:* Congratulations!


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## Jada (Sep 18, 2013)

Damn how the fk didnt I ever see this before, really great article.  Thank u.


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