# Deca/Mast only, no test



## musclebird (Oct 29, 2013)

I understand that deca can kill your libido, so you must run testosterone with any cycle of deca. I understand that testosterone is important in the function of the human body and that in any cycle it should be included, but what if one did not want the sides from testosterone? I want to know if you could run testosterone at a TRT dosage say 200mg/week and deca at a high dosage, say 600mg/week. You'll have the testosterone your body needs to function, and you'll have the anabolic capabilities that deca provides. The only issue now is libido, which is where my real question comes in; it seems simple, deca kills libido and, testosterone raises libido, so you should always run your test, at minimum, the same dosage as your deca, but why must you use test for the libido boost? Could you run 200mg test e, 600mg deca and maybe xmg primo, eq, or mast to keep up libido, or is there some scientific thing that testosterone does with deca that these substitute compounds cannot? I actually see a grater benefit to  substituting a non aromatising steroid with testosterone to increase libido while using deca because there would be no estrogen to increase progestrogen with deca, so no water, acne, loss of libido... just dry clean gains. If you were to run masterone with deca, the slight AI properties of mast should in theory make up for you TRT dosage of test and the 20% aromatising effects of deca. I was thinking about running 200mg of test, 200mg of deca and 400 mg of mast. if everything goes okay then I will bump the deca up to 400mg and see how my libido is effected untill i eventually get to 200/test 600/deca and 800/mast per week. Ill have letro and caber on hand just in case... but i would not be running any artilleries from the beginning of the cycle.


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## j2048b (Oct 29, 2013)

Lower test with upper decca is supppsed to be good in some peoples minds... With low libido id throw in some proviron and cialis daily...and dont forget that caber if needed which u mayneed...


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## hulksmash (Oct 29, 2013)

I only read the first sentence, and that was enough to tell you:

EVERYONES DIFFERENT

I ran Deca only during a cruise..it was great; libido was skyhigh

Test is not a requirement..ask all the arabic bbers 

Experiment! Only way to know how it works for ya


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## Hero Swole (Oct 29, 2013)

If i had to choose between that cycle and staying natural i would stay natural.


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## grind4it (Oct 30, 2013)

Damn, well put




Hero Swole said:


> If i had to choose between that cycle and staying natural i would stay natural.


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

grind4it said:


> Damn, well put



Why??

Low test with 400-600mg of Deca is hell of a lot better than being a natty


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## jyoung8j (Oct 30, 2013)

I would never try this.. but I dnt kno a lot lol


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## TheLupinator (Oct 30, 2013)

I agree with Hulk.. except about Arabic BBers --> People from the Arabian Peninsula are Arabs. Arabic refers to their language. 

I've run low test before in conjunction with other compounds (Mast & Tren) and libido was great. That being said Deca is the only compound I wouldn't run with low test


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> I agree with Hulk.. except about Arabic BBers --> People from the Arabian Peninsula are Arabs. Arabic refers to their language.
> 
> I've run low test before in conjunction with other compounds (Mast & Tren) and libido was great. That being said Deca is the only compound I wouldn't run with low test



Thanks for the correction, dont know what I was thinkin lol

And remember guys, test wasnt that popular with 70s BBers and they looked great

Really shows how good deca+dbol+winny can be


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## Hero Swole (Oct 30, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> Why??
> 
> Low test with 400-600mg of Deca is hell of a lot better than being a natty



He said he was going to start with 200mg of deca. 

If im going to take on the risks of aas its cause i want to get huge not gain a couple of lean pounds. I just think test at 400 to 500 mgs would yield better gains than the proposed cycle. Its a better risk to reward ratio. Especially for a first cycle. The sides are pretty darn minimal especially with ai.



hulksmash said:


> Thanks for the correction, dont know what I was thinkin lol
> 
> And remember guys, test wasnt that popular with 70s BBers and they looked great
> 
> Really shows how good deca+dbol+winny can be



And what is dbol? TEST


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## traviswyliedime (Oct 30, 2013)

I ran 750 test with 600 deca and that was ok.. don't think I would personally try low test with it! my junk was barely working with high test


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

Hero Swole said:


> He said he was going to start with 200mg of deca.
> 
> If im going to take on the risks of aas its cause i want to get huge not gain a couple of lean pounds. I just think test at 400 to 500 mgs would yield better gains than the proposed cycle. Its a better risk to reward ratio. Especially for a first cycle. The sides are pretty darn minimal especially with ai.
> 
> ...



Hey, if he wants to trt it, then go ahead-it wont hurt him

All im sayin 

And dbol, EQ, Primo all are perfect test substitutes

The only reason "test is required" is so prevalant on forums nowadays is due to fear of sides and no damn experimenting

Let him experiment and take from the experience if he wants; its his body lol


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## SFGiants (Oct 30, 2013)

Try it and if dick goes bad adjust the test.

Make sure you have enough test to adjust if needed.

Also I would try this out with NPP not Deca so if all goes to shit your fixed faster.


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

SFGiants said:


> Try it and if dick goes bad adjust the test.
> 
> Make sure you have enough test to adjust if needed.
> 
> Also I would try this out with NPP not Deca so if all goes to shit your fixed faster.



Good idea for him on the NPP


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## Onlythebestwilldo (Oct 30, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> Hey, if he wants to trt it, then go ahead-it wont hurt him
> 
> All im sayin
> 
> ...



Can you explain why people doin dbol only cycles always get call idiots. If it's a test substitute surely it's ok solo. Never done dbol only for the record.


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## TheLupinator (Oct 30, 2013)

Onlythebestwilldo said:


> Can you explain why people doin dbol only cycles always get call idiots. If it's a test substitute surely it's ok solo. Never done dbol only for the record.



I wouldn't call Dbol a "test substitute"

There's a difference between Dbol only and Dbol + TRT. People who don't wanna run test because of the sides (bloating, gyno, acne, etc) should still run at least a TRT dose. The reason is look at the symptoms of low test --> lethargy, loss of motivation, loss of libido, etc. So why experiment with different compounds to try and find one that supports all these male functions when you can simply throw in 150mg/week of test with virtually zero side effects... and  OP is refering to no excess test (TRT), as opposed to no test at all.


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

Onlythebestwilldo said:


> Can you explain why people doin dbol only cycles always get call idiots. If it's a test substitute surely it's ok solo. Never done dbol only for the record.



Because forum posters are nothing but parrots

They parrot what Joe Blow says and the "hive mind" logic spreads like wildfire

My first gear run was Anadrol only and I loved it...no pct after and I was fine (saying pct is necessary is another parroted statement imo, DEPENDING on certain variables)

I rather ignore/take some advice, EXPERIMENT, and see how stuff works for my body


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> I wouldn't call Dbol a "test substitute"
> 
> There's a difference between Dbol only and Dbol + TRT. People who don't wanna run test because of the sides (bloating, gyno, acne, etc) should still run at least a TRT dose. The reason is look at the symptoms of low test --> lethargy, loss of motivation, loss of libido, etc. So why experiment with different compounds to try and find one that supports all these male functions when you can simply throw in 150mg/week of test with virtually zero side effects... and  OP is refering to no excess test (TRT), as opposed to no test at all.



You honestly believe using exogenous AAS that aren't testosterone can't substitute test?? I understand this is the majority logic..

If this was true then everyone would have low test symptoms when they don't include test

This is a recent error in thinking i've seen-the himan body doesn't realize its not test your exogenously using, as far as "low-test" symptoms go


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## TheLupinator (Oct 30, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> You honestly believe using exogenous AAS that aren't testosterone can't substitute test?? I understand this is the majority logic..
> 
> If this was true then everyone would have low test symptoms when they don't include test
> 
> This is a recent error in thinking i've seen-the himan body doesn't realize its not test your exogenously using, as far as "low-test" symptoms go



I think at the very least your body would recognize a change in the androgenic potency of the hormone when switching from test to something like deca. I mean where do you think the term Deca-Dick came from? It's enough of a reason to not even try to run it solo. And again why chance it? Test is cheap, potent, versatile. For me there's no reason not to... I'm just explaining why I wouldn't try it....you though can do whatever you want


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> I think at the very least your body would recognize a change in the androgenic potency of the hormone when switching from test to something like deca. I mean where do you think the term Deca-Dick came from? It's enough of a reason to not even try to run it solo. And again why chance it? Test is cheap, potent, versatile. For me there's no reason not to... I'm just explaining why I wouldn't try it....you though can do whatever you want



Oh I know, I'm just showing you my side of it 

1) your body does recognize potency, as can be seen with AR-mediation and differences in protein synthesis/degradation, like with Tren vs Test

However, symptoms of "low test" is a result of low endogenous hormones-this can be countered with any exogenous AAS

If a person still has "low t" symptoms but not running test, it's NOT because you're not using test, it's because of how you react to the compound..a good example is people still getting lethargy with superdrol+test

2) deca dick is all individual, ive never had it and I think its overblown-most will never know if it is because they rather listen to parroted ideaologies rather than experiment, which is a shame

If you chance it, you may be another one that would love deca-only, thus saving you more $$ 

Thanks for giving your point of view bud, hopefully i didnt sound harsh lol


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## DieYoungStrong (Oct 30, 2013)

Old classic cycle was just Deca and Dbol. It wouldn't have become a classic if your dick didn't work IMO.

That said, I always use at least test base these days.


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## musclebird (Oct 30, 2013)

The're so many people out there that run deca and test, test even higher then the deca and still get issues with libido. I'm under the impression that the famous "deca dick" is caused by progestrogen, and I always thought that progestrogen was mainly brought on by a fluctuation in estrogen and/or by having estrogen in the high range. If estrogen being out of whack is the cause of progesterone with deca, then it would appear to me that running a high test dosage with deca would actually increase that chance of getting erectile issues rather then decrease them... but if deca is like annavar(which to some level I believe it is) and just happens to lower libido then that's why the masterone is in the cycle. one compound lowers your libido but is counteracted by another compound increasing libido. one really highly androgenic compound and one really highly anabolic compound... it seems like an awesome synergy to me... The mast would make the user hard as a rock and very vascular while the deca would add on mass and cushion the joints, and the test would be kept at TRT dosage throughout for the health of the human body. something to point out is look at all the old school BB's who ran deca only cycles and never got gyno, because deca gyno is another thing brought on by progestogen sides which could in theory (loose theory) be avoided by substituting test for a non- aromatising compound. I really don's see what magical think testyosterone does in the body and make it a MUST to run with deca. I know testosterone is important for human functions, but what does it scientifically do to increase libido with deca that eq, primo or masterone cannot? i beleive the test is just run higher to counter act libido... and if that is true then another compounded should be able to be substituted and as a bonus not screw up your estrogen levels nagging on progestorgen. on a side not i chose masterone because it doesn't really affect BP.


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## musclebird (Oct 30, 2013)

Really though, ill have caber and letro on hand, ill be starting the masteron on top of a trt dosage before introducing the deca and i actually wont be running deca, ill be running npp... so if there are any issues ill drop the deca and blast caber and letro... Should be fun and ill let you SI bros know how it goes


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## TheLupinator (Oct 30, 2013)

musclebird said:


> Really though, ill have caber and letro on hand, ill be starting the masteron on top of a trt dosage before introducing the deca and i actually wont be running deca, ill be running npp... so if there are any issues ill drop the deca and blast caber and letro... Should be fun and ill let you SI bros know how it goes



Have you ran letro before? Just asking because it's legit the only thing that has ever ****ed with my libido


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## f.r.a.n.k. (Oct 30, 2013)

Just to make sure I'm reading this right, we are talking trt dose of test with Dbol or deca, mast, etc...
Not Deca only? With NO test...right?
Low test, not NO test right?

My view is simple...if you want normal test levels at a trt dose, that's fine...but NO test at all isn't something I would personally deal with along side something like deca or Dbol...you're a man...testosterone defines you! Lol


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## musclebird (Oct 30, 2013)

frank.tb said:


> Just to make sure I'm reading this right, we are talking trt dose of test with Dbol or deca, mast, etc...
> Not Deca only? With NO test...right?
> Low test, not NO test right?
> 
> My view is simple...if you want normal test levels at a trt dose, that's fine...but NO test at all isn't something I would personally deal with along side something like deca or Dbol...you're a man...testosterone defines you! Lol



200mg of test e per week haha and to the above ^ no i have never ran letro, but i know its impossible to get a boner at gyno reversal doses haha


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

frank.tb said:


> Just to make sure I'm reading this right, we are talking trt dose of test with Dbol or deca, mast, etc...
> Not Deca only? With NO test...right?
> Low test, not NO test right?
> 
> My view is simple...if you want normal test levels at a trt dose, that's fine...but NO test at all isn't something I would personally deal with along side something like deca or Dbol...you're a man...testosterone defines you! Lol



I did deca only at one point in my cruise and loved it

But yea we were talking about low test dosage


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## hulksmash (Oct 30, 2013)

musclebird said:


> 200mg of test e per week haha and to the above ^ no i have never ran letro, but i know its impossible to get a boner at gyno reversal doses haha



No it's not..letro has lowered my libido a little, but it's still goin strong


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## f.r.a.n.k. (Oct 31, 2013)

hulksmash said:


> I did deca only at one point in my cruise and loved it
> 
> But yea we were talking about low test dosage



Lol thanks for the clarification


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## flenser (Oct 31, 2013)

I have run 100mg test with 200mg deca and 400mg mast, and libido was fine. Don't know if doubling the deca and mast will be a problem, but I've been half planning that dose for a cycle in February after BW for TRT is taken. Will be interested in your progress MB.


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## musclebird (Oct 31, 2013)

I won't be posting a log, but I'll definitely let you SI brothers know the affects it has on my individual body. 
     flenser, I gotta ask man; I've chosen this blast in hopes of avoiding DECA bloat and keeping a hard vascular look with the benefits for joints. How was you appearance while on your DECA/ mas run, did you get a lot of bloat, or did the vascularity from the mast help to hide the DECA bloat?


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## flenser (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm at 16% bf (20% when I started), so I can't say much about vascularity, LOL. I used the mast to get around the e2 problems with all the extra fat so I could cut without losing muscle. That worked a lot better than I expected. I added the deca last, and I did get a small weight gain the first week which I assume was water/bloat. Hard to say for sure.


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## TheLupinator (Oct 31, 2013)

musclebird said:


> I won't be posting a log, but I'll definitely let you SI brothers know the affects it has on my individual body.
> flenser, I gotta ask man; I've chosen this blast in hopes of avoiding DECA bloat and keeping a hard vascular look with the benefits for joints. How was you appearance while on your DECA/ mas run, did you get a lot of bloat, or did the vascularity from the mast help to hide the DECA bloat?



H2O rentention is a function of estrogen and diet. Obviously an AI will take care of estro and your diet should be low sodium, low refined carbohydrates, and lots of water.


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## Yaya (Oct 31, 2013)

deca kills the dick in some cases...

mast has always resurrected the dick in Yayas case..

seems interesting..

shit i have a pal who ran just deca and dbol for years... a little parabolan, starting juicing in the 80s and tried test for the first time 2 yrs ago


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## musclebird (Oct 31, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> H2O rentention is a function of estrogen and diet. Obviously an AI will take care of estro and your diet should be low sodium, low refined carbohydrates, and lots of water.



I dunno about that man, DECA barely aromatises as it is... You shouldn't even have really high estero with DECA? I thought water from DECA was linked with DECA being an antagonist to progestorgen receptor or enzyme or some crap lol unless I'm wrong and you can stay really dry on DECA with an AI, but 100 percentbagree   with the diet part


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## TheLupinator (Oct 31, 2013)

musclebird said:


> I dunno about that man, DECA barely aromatises as it is... You shouldn't even have really high estero with DECA? I thought water from DECA was linked with DECA being an antagonist to progestorgen receptor or enzyme or some crap lol unless I'm wrong and you can stay really dry on DECA with an AI, but 100 percentbagree   with the diet part



hhmmm good question. DECA is supposed to aromatize at about half the rate of test, so there shouldn't be as much bloat, but I've never ran it... didn't know progesterone causes water retention, if that were the case wouldn't tren do the same? never heard or experienced water retention with Tren though I ran an AI and Caber with it.


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## musclebird (Oct 31, 2013)

TheLupinator said:


> hhmmm good question. DECA is supposed to aromatize at about half the rate of test, so there shouldn't be as much bloat, but I've never ran it... didn't know progesterone causes water retention, if that were the case wouldn't tren do the same? never heard or experienced water retention with Tren though I ran an AI and Caber with it.



Yeah and that's what gets me... Tren causes progesterone but keeps you really dry... So I don't think its the progesterone its self causing the bloat but maybe how DECA activates or uses the progestrogen receptor?, I'm really just guessing and talking out of my ass, I know that progesterone can cause libido dysfunction and acne.. I think? So I would imagine it would cause water retention to but tren doesnt... I really want to know how to stay dry on DECA/npp and not get moon face, I know you can keep the water back with an AI and maybe caber to some extent? But I've never read about anyone being completely shredded on deca, and I want the joint benifits...


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## HDH (Oct 31, 2013)

It's been my experience and the experience of others that in most cases, the sides we get are the sides we are already prone to. Acne, hair loss, gyno, higher levels of estrogen for a cycle, etc...

If planning to run Deca or Tren with no or low test I would suggest checking if there are any ED problems on either side of the family. That could give a heads up on problems to come.

I've seen more people run it without problems than people that do. And yes, most of the time add or raise Test levels and everything is ok.

Sometimes that's not always the case though. I've seen guys finish their PCT and still have ED problems. As it's been stated, everyone is different.

Everyone should know the facts though.

HDH


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## shenky (Nov 21, 2013)

From what I've seen, in general when someone asks this question, or proposes this cycle on a forum, they are flamed into oblivion.

However, I've read several cycle logs with high deca and cruise dose test. No complaints. It's a cycle I'm considering for summer, considering how prone I am to gyno.


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## NbleSavage (Nov 21, 2013)

Great thread. Considering adding a bit of Mast into my current blast given this discussion. Presently at 400 Mg Test E / 400 Mg Deca weekly.


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