# First cycle critique. Test + Anavar.



## Curiosity (Jun 17, 2012)

Hey SI, 

I'm finally getting ready to run my first cycle. I will be 28 years old in a few weeks, 6'0, 170 lbs, lean. I'll post up some pics soon. Also will do preliminary blood work before I start the cycle which I will post up as well. This cycle will start in about a month or so. 

Cycle info: 

I have Test E 275, so I plan to run either 1 mg e4d or 2 x a week. which is either 481.25 mg per week or 550 mg per week. 

I plan to run Test for 12 weeks. 

I plan to switch over to Test Prop for the last 3 weeks in order to more accurately estimate the hormone clearing my system and the beginning of PCT. Run the prop at maybe 125mg eod, which is 437.5mg per week. However, since we all know prop has more hormone per mg than enanthate, I think this should be roughly equilivant to the 481.25mg of enanthate per week. I can't seem to find the thread that has all of the weights of hormone of each ester right now. 

I have also decided that I'd like to add anavar to this cycle. I'd like the extra strength gains, I like lean muscle, I don't really want to get bloated, etc. Might as well go a little bigger if I'm gonna do it. 

I'm thinking anavar weeks 5-12 @ 50mg/day or 75mg/day.

I am planning on running HCG e3d @250IU during cycle, then a blast of maybe 500IU EOD for 10 days after I stop the prop. Then its on to a standard nolva/clomid PCT.

I will have aromasin on hand. was thinking about running it really low, like 6.25/day from the beginning and seeing how I feel from there. Or I may just hold on to it until I need it. Also considering running it during PCT. 

So, in summary. 

Weeks 1-9 Test E @ 481.25 mg/week
Weeks 10-12 Test prop @ 437.5 mg/week
Weeks 5-12 Anavar @ 50 or 75 mg/day
Weeks 1-12 HCG @ 250IU e3d
Aromasin on hand

Day after last Prop injection: HCG blast, 500IU EOD for 10 days

Day after HCG blast, start PCT 
clomid 50/50/50/50
Nolva 20/20/10/10/10/10
Aromasin 25mg ED during PCT

Please give any and all feedback. I'm sure this is far from perfect and I'd love to hear what everyone thinks. 

I'm especially concerned about:

1. How exactly to time switching from Enanthate to Prop as far as injection schedule goes.

2. My HCG blast and the amount I should use for it, given that I've run it @ 250 e3d all cycle.

Thanks for the advice guys!


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## Zeek (Jun 17, 2012)

First off, you have done a great job researching!

 I personally do not like to use any hcg during PCT, every time that I have done so my recovery seems to have been drug out longer.

 If you really want to do an hcg blast perhaps skip the prop at the end idea and  just start the blast the day after  last test E inject. which would  be at the end of week 12 in this case.

  Since test will take a while to kick in maybe run the var weeks 1-7 or 8 at the front end of the cycle so things get moving for you faster than wiating 4-5 weeks for the test E to fully kick in.

 Also for PCt the nolva and clomid will handle any gyno that could come your way from the crash phase, you really are helped by it since that sends additional signals for your body to start producing it's own testosterone.

 PCT and hcg use is not an exact science, so many guys play with things and do things differently and still recover! You will have to try different things over your future cycles and then better for you to decide what works best for you.

 Good work over all putting the cycle together and doing your research!


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## Curiosity (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks for the response my man! 

I was considering maybe just running the HCG as stated through the cycle, and then just going directly into PCT without a blast. I guess if I keep my Leydig cells recieving signals the whole cycle my testes should be ready to go into PCT without an additional HCG blast right?

Also, are you saying that I shouldn't use an AI during PCT? that clomid and nolva will be adequate to do the job? I read a few recommendations elsewhere that aromasin during PCT is helpful. 

Frontloading the anavar isn't a bad idea either, both the front and back load have their appeal. I'd love to hear opinions from others about which would be better for me.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 17, 2012)

No gear for you!!!  170lbs at 6 feet means you Aren't eating. Not flaming OP but you're not ready.


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## Zeek (Jun 17, 2012)

I never fully understood the use of an Ai during PCT since you won't get gyno using clomid and nolva. All it will be doing is reducing system wide estrogen  which as I pointed out is not a bad thing in PCT!  can really speed things up, your body receiving signals from different sources to kick start  production, higher than normal estrogen will trigger the body to kick out some test!

 We do have fans of the hcg blast here hopefully they chime in with their experiences for you


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## Curiosity (Jun 17, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> No gear for you!!!  170lbs at 6 feet means you Aren't eating. Not flaming OP but you're not ready.



I understand your concern POB, and I was expecting someone to say something along those lines, but I believe that I do understand diet pretty well. My goal hasn't always been to gain weight. For a while I was comfortable being super lean @ 150 lbs, lots of running, sports, strength/endurance lifting, super duper clean and fairly light diet... But I've shifted my focus and gained 20 lbs. 

What weight is the acceptable gear starting weight for a 6' 28 year old in your opinion?


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## Curiosity (Jun 17, 2012)

Ezekiel said:


> I never fully understood the use of an Ai during PCT since you won't get gyno using clomid and nolva. All it will be doing is reducing system wide estrogen  which as I pointed out is not a bad thing in PCT!  can really speed things up, your body receiving signals from different sources to kick start  production, higher than normal estrogen will trigger the body to kick out some test!
> 
> We do have fans of the hcg blast here hopefully they chime in with their experiences for you



Yeah I'd love to hear other peoples opinions and experience with the AI during PCT vs. no AI during PCT debate


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## noobmuscle (Jun 18, 2012)

This might just be an matter of opinion but I would look towards something like this:

1-8: Anavar
1-4 Test prop
1-12 Test-E

I would do this for more kick at the beginning. Jumping from long ester to short is going to give you more kick at the end which is odd to me personally. Its not hard timing PCT coming off a long ester. 14 days from last injection is usually efficient. Once again though, just personal preference. i like the kick at the beginning because once that long estered test kicks in, that all the kick I need anyway!


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## Bro Bundy (Jun 18, 2012)

Im not sure if I go with the whole you gotta be 230 to do gear bs...I got a good friend he was 33 years old at 140 pounds lol started a test cycle by week 10 motherfuckers up 30 pounds says he never felt this good in his life.He also says going to the gym eating right and doing gear saved his life cause he was headed in the wrong direction before he started.Not everyone can start gear at 230 some of us start at 180 and 170 and 140.Bahaha


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## noobmuscle (Jun 18, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> Yeah I'd love to hear other peoples opinions and experience with the AI during PCT vs. no AI during PCT debate



I have always ran an AI through PCT to combat the possibility of rebound estro.


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## gymrat827 (Jun 18, 2012)

noobmuscle said:


> This might just be an matter of opinion but I would look towards something like this:
> 
> 1-8: Anavar
> 1-4 Test prop
> ...



i also like this.   but you do want to gain 10-12 lb before starting, eat 100-200 extra clean cals each meal for a month...

see where that takes you


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## Pikiki (Jun 18, 2012)

I like your plan bro and like is being said already front or back load is just a personal preffrence. Ai on PCT is not a must but it can be usefull for estro rebound like Nood said. HCG this is an area of very diffrent opinions as well, I didn`t run hcg during cycle but blast before PCT and my recovery looks to going fine. I think if you run hcg on cycle no need for blast at the end or viceverse. About wieght to start gear or not my opinion if you know what you do and know how to workout for me weight doesn`t matter if your not under weight like said your 6' at 130. That is very low and diet needs improvement but at your height and weight I don`t see why you are not ready for it. You really did your homework about AAS good job.


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

noobmuscle said:


> This might just be an matter of opinion but I would look towards something like this:
> 
> 1-8: Anavar
> 1-4 Test prop
> ...



Yeah, that setup would definitely give me the full 12 weeks with my test levels jacked up instead of waiting for the enanthate to build up in my system. I was thinking with it being my first cycle and all it might not be so bad to let it build slowly and ease into it rather than blast my test levels immediately. I'm not sure as a first cycle I need to go that aggressive with the kickstart. 

Then again, if I'm gonna do it maybe I might as well kick up my test levels for the whole 12 weeks. I'll think about it.

Going with the anavar for the first 8 weeks instead of the last 8 might be a better call though. 

Thanks for your feedback, definitely something to think about.


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

Brother Bundy said:


> Im not sure if I go with the whole you gotta be 230 to do gear bs...I got a good friend he was 33 years old at 140 pounds lol started a test cycle by week 10 motherfuckers up 30 pounds says he never felt this good in his life.He also says going to the gym eating right and doing gear saved his life cause he was headed in the wrong direction before he started.Not everyone can start gear at 230 some of us start at 180 and 170 and 140.Bahaha



I do fully understand the reason that I hear 'you're not big enough yet, not ready' etc. on many beginner threads on different forums. Plenty of people get on gear without having the discipline in their diet and training to really benefit from it. Or without having a decent base of muscle. Especially younger people. 

On the other hand, I don't think you can say just from someone's height and weight where they are in their training and discipline. I could be 6' 170, super low bodyfat, small pelvic structure and bone structure which makes me lighter than average, deadlifting 3x my bodyweight OR I could be 6' 170 and out of shape and been in the gym 3 months. I have always found it interesting the very small amount of information people on boards use to make that call. There are so many possible body types and levels of training that "6' 170 lbs" could describe. 

I'm not saying this warning is dumb, for plenty of people I'm sure its the right advice. However, once someone makes the decision to use AAS, I doubt there is much someone on a forum who they don't even know can do to stop them.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 18, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> I do fully understand the reason that I hear 'you're not big enough yet, not ready' etc. on many beginner threads on different forums. Plenty of people get on gear without having the discipline in their diet and training to really benefit from it. Or without having a decent base of muscle. Especially younger people.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think you can say just from someone's height and weight where they are in their training and discipline. I could be 6' 170, super low bodyfat, small pelvic structure and bone structure which makes me lighter than average, deadlifting 3x my bodyweight OR I could be 6' 170 and out of shape and been in the gym 3 months. I have always found it interesting the very small amount of information people on boards use to make that call. There are so many possible body types and levels of training that "6' 170 lbs" could describe.
> 
> I'm not saying this warning is dumb, for plenty of people I'm sure its the right advice. However, once someone makes the decision to use AAS, I doubt there is much someone on a forum who they don't even know can do to stop them.



Small amount of info is all I need. Using your example, tall and skinny learn to eat more. Short and fat learn to eat right.

The OP does not have the foundation. Says so himself. He liked being lean now he wants to grow. Learn to grow naturally thru eating first.  I would bet money he loses everything he gains after PCT. 

Is there a set height weight? Of course not and it depends on your goal. I don't think you have to be super lean 10% BF or over some mystery weight... But he just changed up his goal and immediately wants to juice. Show some commitment to growing first.  It's a lot harder than staying lean.


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

Pikiki said:


> I like your plan bro and like is being said already front or back load is just a personal preffrence. Ai on PCT is not a must but it can be usefull for estro rebound like Nood said. HCG this is an area of very diffrent opinions as well, I didn`t run hcg during cycle but blast before PCT and my recovery looks to going fine. I think if you run hcg on cycle no need for blast at the end or viceverse. About wieght to start gear or not my opinion if you know what you do and know how to workout for me weight doesn`t matter if your not under weight like said your 6' at 130. That is very low and diet needs improvement but at your height and weight I don`t see why you are not ready for it. You really did your homework about AAS good job.



Thanks Piki, yeah the HCG thing seems to be just something I'm overthinking, Cobra pretty much laid it out to me that I'll be fine no matter how I use it so I can just pick a plan and be happy with it. I just love to try to optimize everything and fine tune every detail you know?

As far as starting weight, yeah if I wanted to be 280 5% bodyfat and compete some day I'd definitely want to push my weight up before I get on AAS, but really I don't want to get over 200 lbs, lean and hard and strong, maybe even 190 when I'm really lean. And ultimately I don't see a huge downside to using AAS to help me get where I want to be. It's well understood, side effects are potential negatives are well understood, I've studied them, and I think odds are I'll come out of this exactly the same health-wise as I went in, but closer to my fitness goals, and maybe with a little less hair on my head


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 18, 2012)

Brother Bundy said:


> Im not sure if I go with the whole you gotta be 230 to do gear bs...I got a good friend he was 33 years old at 140 pounds lol started a test cycle by week 10 motherfuckers up 30 pounds says he never felt this good in his life.He also says going to the gym eating right and doing gear saved his life cause he was headed in the wrong direction before he started.Not everyone can start gear at 230 some of us start at 180 and 170 and 140.Bahaha



Where were his test levels prior to the cycle? I wonder if he was hypogonadal...


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> Small amount of info is all I need. Using your example, tall and skinny learn to eat more. Short and fat learn to eat right.
> 
> The OP does not have the foundation. Says so himself. He liked being lean now he wants to grow. Learn to grow naturally thru eating first.  I would bet money he loses everything he gains after PCT.
> 
> Is there a set height weight? Of course not and it depends on your goal. I don't think you have to be super lean 10% BF or over some mystery weight... But he just changed up his goal and immediately wants to juice. Show some commitment to growing first.  It's a lot harder than staying lean.



Fair enough Pillar. I will give serious consideration to your suggestion that I gain more weight before starting. 

Out of curiosity though, what would you say is my lowest acceptable starting weight? 6', ___ lbs. 

Just so I have an idea of how much more progress you think I should have before starting AAS.

Edit:

I just re-read your previous post where you said there is no magic number for starting weight, sorry, i'm not trying to be a dick about this. 

I'm just confused as it seemed you made your initial assessment of my not being ready based on my height and weight stats, but now you are saying there isn't really a height-to-weight ratio or number that would indicate I am ready in your opinion. Maybe you based this assessment on looking at my avatar combined with height and weight stats?

Also, just to clarify, I wouldn't say I 'just' changed my goals and want instant gratification. As I said, I changed them a while ago, and have gained 20 lbs naturally. Which suggests to me that perhaps I do understand something about how to gain weight naturally.


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## DF (Jun 18, 2012)

How much do you guys think genetic potential weighs in on when to start aas? I for one have a take small bone structure & joints.  As an example my dad at 30 years of age when he got out of the army weighed 130lbs @ 5'10".  So just going by this when I graduated high school I was 5'10" and 155.  Still very small, but ahead of where my dad was weight wise @ 30.


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

Dfeaton said:


> How much do you guys think genetic potential weighs in on when to start aas? I for one have a take small bone structure & joints.  As an example my dad at 30 years of age when he got out of the army weighed 130lbs @ 5'10".  So just going by this when I graduated high school I was 5'10" and 155.  Still very small, but ahead of where my dad was weight wise @ 30.



Yeah this is sort of what I'm getting at too. 

For example, I have a friend whose build looks very similar to mine. If you saw us with clothes on walking down the street you would probably think we weighed about the same. But he has what seems to be a bigger pelvis/upper leg/torso structure that he just seems to carry more weight in. He weights 200 lbs to my 170. 

I could be wrong but I do think bone structure and geometry, plus genetics, can have a major impact on body weight, shape and appearance relative to training progress.

How all this relates to when to start AAS I don't really know since I'm still very new to the game.


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## Get Some (Jun 18, 2012)

Listen here you fucks! lol

I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not. 

Here's what you need plain and simple:

1. Don't overcomplicate things... drop the prop and just run test E straight through for 10-12 weeks. Just wait 21-15 days after your last pin to start PCT

2. What are your long term and short term goals? If you don't want to be much bigger than 170 lbs, then gear is not for you. WHy screw up your natural levels and risk lifelong TRT to gain a couple pounds and some strength?

3. If you do want to get closer to 200lbs, stick to the basics... on everything. Run your cycle with 30mg Dbol for the first 5 weeks or so and run arimidex or aromasin alongside. If you run 12.5mg aromasin EOD or 0.5mg Adex EOD throughout at least the first 5 weeks then you shouldn't have any problems with estro bloat. Using dbol with a concurrent AI is basically like using Tbol (which is great by the way). 

4. Why spend a ton of money on anavar when it's not right for what you truly need? On your first cycle you are going to want to see daily results after the first couple weeks. Anavar is not going to do that for you other than strength. Also, you can use a mere 30mg of dbol and get ridiculous results, while trying to use 60mg of anavar and getting results that are not even close to similar. Anavar costs close to twice as much and you are using AT LEAST twice as much of it. So, you can thank me later for saving you a ton of money and gettting you better results in the process

5. HCG is not for PCT. HCG should be used throughout cycle starting at about week 3. 250 IU twice weekly or 500IU once weekly is fine. You can increase the frequency of your dosing if your nuts shrink significantly (we call this "as needed"). In the 21-25 days leading up to PCT you should "blast" the HCG at 1000 IU per week split into 2 doses. Once you start with the SERMs discontinue the use of HCG. HCG will only suppress your natural test a bit further once you start using SERMS.

6. I like Nolva/Clomid combo.... 4 weeks of Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50

7. Do not use Nolva on cycle if you are using an AI, this is a waste (not saying you were, just as a general rule)

8. Eat to achieve your goals. If you want to bulk then eat lke a horse. The quality of foods you eat will determine the amount of adipose tissue that you gain for the most part. 

9. Lean Bulking is a LONG process. If you want to gain 20lbs of mass while maintaining your current BF%, expect to spend about a year doing this... UNLESS you gain 30 lbs in half the time and al ittle fat with it and then cut back down to your desired weight....much quicker

10. If you want to bulk, choose a weight training program that emphasizes that like the 5x5 or DC Training or German Volume Training. This could be the most important piece of advice yet! Most of the people who want their biceps to grow don't believe me when I tell them that if they focus on compound movements that target their back their arms will explode....but it's true! I kid you not, I am advising you right now to focus on your back routine (including pull ups and chin ups) for a solid month without doing one arm curl and see where you are at at the end of the month. If your arms do not look fuller after that period of time I will be SHOCKED. Take the challenge!

11. Keep reading... a wise man never stops learning, only fools know everything

12. You're welcome!


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## JOMO (Jun 18, 2012)

Get Some said:


> Listen here you fucks! lol
> 
> I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not.
> 
> ...



/End thread. Great info. Oh..didn't mean to hit dislike after liking it.


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## Curiosity (Jun 18, 2012)

*Thanks for the response man. Good advice. Let me address a few things in your post*



Get Some said:


> Listen here you fucks! lol
> 
> I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the detailed and informative response. Solid advice for anyone getting started. 
Oh, and just curious... Do you agree with PoB that I am not ready for AAS at my current level of development?


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## Get Some (Jun 18, 2012)

Curiosity said:


> *Thanks for the response man. Good advice. Let me address a few things in your post*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anytime you go into a cycle, you have to assume the possibility of long term shutdown and/or hypogonadism. If you can't deal with that, then you need to look at other avenues. Yes, it's unlikely that this would happen with your first cycle, but until you see how react you just can't tell for sure. They also say it's unlikely that if you forget to wear a condom just once that you'll knock up a chick...yet it happens on a regular basis 

IMO, whoever is writing shit about Anavar being "good for long term slow, steady gains" is out of their fucking mind, lol. I really believe that it is easier to lose gains you've made from anavar than it is to lose gains you've made from dbol. And certainly there is no doubt that gains minus what you lose with dbol would still be far superior to anavar. In my book, anavar is a cutting drug and should be used accordingly. IMO, you should save it for a later cycle, at which point you can decide to run that or winny or a lower dose combination (combo is FANTASTIC for cutting!). The real drug that is good for long term slow, steady muscle gains is primobolan. But, unless you can be absolutely sure what you're getting is the real deal then I wouldn't ever consider it. It's very mild in nature so it would be hard to tell if you got underdosed Test instead of primo. But, if you've used primo before then you know the feeling. After about 12 weeks you feel like a rock with very full muscles and almost no water retention. But, even though primo is mild in nature, I think it should be classified as an "advanced user" level drug, because of the expectations and what you have to do to be successful with it.

The biggest problem with new users is the worry about "bloat." You are only causing yourself harm by worrying about this and should really just get over it and dive right in. After just one week of dbol you won't give a fuck about a little extra water...in fact you'll hardly even notice it. And other people aren't going to say, "hey, you're getting fatter" they're gonna say, "fuck man, you're getting hyooooge!"... and just to clarify on this, bloat is not fat, it's subcutaneous water. Subcutaneous water is not a bad thing while on cycle because it can be a cushion to the joints (which is why you want to low dose the AIs on a regular basis) rather than heavy dose if you need it. 

Oh, and I forgot to mention that you need to have Letro on hand. This is not just some broscience suggestion, Letro has saved my ass many times. I am very prone to gyno from test and sometimes arimidex or aromasin is not enough. Each time I've used Letro it's killed the gyno symptoms in just a matter of a few days. Don't spend time worrying about what could happen, just have it on hand.

IMO, you have all of the same worries that most people have when they go to start their anabolic journey. You just need to loosen up and listen to people who have been through this journey before. BUT, also, never just take the advice of one person. Over time you will learn who the good people are to read and then check what they say against what you have read. And then to take it a step further do some additional research. 

For example, you will find out through your own experience that HCG works just fine on an "as needed" basis. Desensitization of the leydig cells from long term hcg use is a reality if you are not careful. I usually run it a couple weeks then take a week off and then run it for another few weeks and so on. OH... also, I FORGOT... I mistyped in my last post about the HCG "blast" before PCT. During this blast period, you want to be pinning HCG 500 IU EVERY OTHER DAY, not just 1000 IU weekly. So, it's closer to 1750 IU weekly if you really want to get technical about it. 

If it were me, I would want to have as much info as possible about what I was going to do before I did it. Because, to be honest, a lot of the guys who have been around for awhile, including myself, did not run very well advised first cycles. In fact, my first cycle was dbol and deca... yup, no test! I gained a ton of weight and was very happy with it, but then my sex drive took 7 months to recover! It was a nightmare and I have only used Deca once since. Anytime you are dealing with Tren or Deca just be very cautious because it can fuck with your dick big time. The worst is with Tren because sometimes it ups your sex drive, but decreases blood flow to the genital area.... so you are horny, but can't stay hard!

Here are a few more quick tidbits:

1. Oral Dosing: some guys like to dose it only on workout days about an hour to an hour and a half preworkout (full dose at that time). I prefer to spread the doses out throughout the day as much as possible, especially with dbol. With 10mg of dbol dosed 3x per day you won't get the same jolt and pumps that 30mg all at once preworkout will give you, but from my experience you will gain more solid muscle overall. 

2. If you are sore, take one more day off. Remember, muscles don't grow while you're working out, they grow based on how good of rest and fuel they recieve after taking that battering. SLEEP becomes critical. If you are still young and like to party you can fit that into your lifestyle as well, but be prepared to make some sacrifices to achieve the body you desire. Taking naps of about 1 hour to an hour and a half 2-4 times per week is great for recharging the batteries. Some of the best athletes to ever walk this earth admitted in interviews that they took naps a few times a week and that helped keep them in top condition.

3. Mix up your routine every once in awhile. The whole "muscle confusion" thing I don't buy, but it's more to keep you interested in succeeding. Long Term DC training will be great, but while you're doing it you should research other heavy lifting and mass routines. It never hurts to have something to switch off with every couple of months. 

4. Chart your progress and take pictures. The more involved you get with the process, the better the chance you will succeed. Don't get too caught up in day to day progress, worry more about the long term goal. I'm currently in the process of cutting and I give myself rewards for reaching certain levels or weights based on where I think my body should and can be. The reward last week was a bag of sour patch kids (my favorite!), however, after reaching my goal weight for that week, I decided to skip the sour patch kids because I was even more excited about my progress and didn't want to slow my roll. So, you have to find out what works for you and what motivates you. 

5. Cardio is necessary even when bulking. This will keep your heart in shape and help with your recovery time. Cardio without music or TV is hell, lol. Quick tip for all of you that have Netflix.... download the app on your phone and watch a 30 minute episode of your favorite TV show right on your phone while you are sitting at the gym on the cardio equipment. I'm telling you it's a lifesaver!


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## Bro Bundy (Jun 19, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> Where were his test levels prior to the cycle? I wonder if he was hypogonadal...



no clue all I know is the kids in love with testosterone...Will he lose all his gains after pct only time will tell,my guess is he will lose alot because he had no foundation to start with.


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## Malevolence (Jun 19, 2012)

judging by your stats I would say hard core ectomorph.  I am not gonna go POB on you but diet is definitely king.  You do however have an advantage that you can put to use.  Your caloric maintenance is low and you can basically eat what ever the fuck you want with out getting fat.  High calorie foods like big macs and shit like that to get the extra calories.  your maintenance right now is 2550 so you should really start out getting at least 2700 a day but more like 3000 a day.  You have to eat good shit too but you can cheat way more than others.  Do your cycle just eat right.  One thing I do to get calories is I take a table spoon of extra virgin olive oil before bed every night with cottage cheese and yogurt.  Really focus on the diet and work your ass off and you will get big


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## Curiosity (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks Get Some. I really do appreciate you taking the time to give me all of that advice and information. I will definitely get some Letro. And you are right, Dbol would probably be better for maximum gains. 
     I was really just going to run a test cycle originally, I was thinking I could add anavar for just a little extra boost without any additional sides or tougher recovery. I'm sure the test will do most of the work and I should be happy with the results from the test. 
     HCG is very controversial, I read that HCG desensitization can't happen from the kind of doses we're talking about, I read that it can easily happen.... I guess its smarter to err on the side of caution and use it sparingly. 
     Definitely would dose orals evenly through the day, better to keep levels even than have them up and down every day. 
     As far as diet, exercise, cardio I think I have it under control. I posted up a thread about my exercise routine progress a while ago, and I will try to post up a sample diet soon if I have some time. Cardio is usually hockey once or twice a week and right now I'm playing soccer once a week as well. Plus my job is working on my feet and walking around alot etc. which is kind of like slow steady state cardio. 

Thanks again.


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## Curiosity (Jun 19, 2012)

Malevolence said:


> judging by your stats I would say hard core ectomorph.  I am not gonna go POB on you but diet is definitely king.  You do however have an advantage that you can put to use.  Your caloric maintenance is low and you can basically eat what ever the fuck you want with out getting fat.  High calorie foods like big macs and shit like that to get the extra calories.  your maintenance right now is 2550 so you should really start out getting at least 2700 a day but more like 3000 a day.  You have to eat good shit too but you can cheat way more than others.  Do your cycle just eat right.  One thing I do to get calories is I take a table spoon of extra virgin olive oil before bed every night with cottage cheese and yogurt.  Really focus on the diet and work your ass off and you will get big



     Yeah I think I'm definitely that ectomorph. I lifted for years without trying to eat extra cals, thinking I would slowly gain weight/muscle, and it just didn't happen. I got alot stronger for sure, and my body changed, but I didn't grow that much. Now I find I gotta really plan my eating to make it happen. 
     I'm pretty damn active. I've been eating closer to 4500 cals a day for the last 3 months, and I can still see my abs. I've gained about 12 lbs during that time though. Some of it is fat, but clearly not too much. I do try to keep the cals clean though, I don't need to eat junk to get my cals where I need them. I can plan my eating and make it work. 
     I probably will go ahead with the cycle. I'm going out of town in a few days, then when I get back I'll get my routine back in order, grab a few more things I need to start, then fire it up in a month or two. 

Thanks for the response.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 19, 2012)

What the hell? THE GREAT AND ALL KNOWING GET SOME HAS ARRIVED!!!

learned almost everything i know from this guy...


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## Get Some (Jun 19, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> What the hell? THE GREAT AND ALL KNOWING GET SOME HAS ARRIVED!!!
> 
> learned almost everything i know from this guy...



Except how to butt fuck souls, you were the one who taught me that


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## CIII (Jun 21, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> Small amount of info is all I need. Using your example, tall and skinny learn to eat more. Short and fat learn to eat right.
> 
> The OP does not have the foundation. Says so himself. He liked being lean now he wants to grow. Learn to grow naturally thru eating first.  I would bet money he loses everything he gains after PCT.
> 
> Is there a set height weight? Of course not and it depends on your goal. I don't think you have to be super lean 10% BF or over some mystery weight... But he just changed up his goal and immediately wants to juice. Show some commitment to growing first.  It's a lot harder than staying lean.



i agree with you PoB!


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