# Squatting



## Joliver (Dec 7, 2013)

I am a westside programmed PLer.  Probably about 70% of the squats that I do, are on a box.  

What is everyone's thoughts on Box vs. Free Squatting?


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 7, 2013)

Box squatting took me from 405 to 600's... thing is though my squat is wider raw than some guys in gear. Damn near touch the sides of the mono. That may change since tearing my adductor though.

Every person I have taught to squat starts on a box. Width aside, box squatting is the best way to come to understand the mechanics of a squat. 

This of course doesn't apply to an oly lifter.


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## Joliver (Dec 7, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Box squatting took me from 405 to 600's... thing is though my squat is wider raw than some guys in gear. Damn near touch the sides of the mono. That may change since tearing my adductor though.
> 
> Every person I have taught to squat starts on a box. Width aside, box squatting is the best way to come to understand the mechanics of a squat.
> 
> This of course doesn't apply to an oly lifter.



I love squatting off of the box.  I feel like it gives me the break in eccentric and concentric chain like a pause squat, without the kinetic loading of my tendons in the hole.  I squat as wide as I can.  It tightens my hips and helps me use my posterior chain muscles to power out.  

I see too many people that hate box squatting, and for the life of me, I cant figure out why...


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## NbleSavage (Dec 7, 2013)

Incorporated box squats into one of my leg days maybe six weeks ago. Free squat has gone up by 50 Lbs as a result 

I view it primarily now as a tool for developing the posterior chain while still hitting the quads. 

Love it, probably my fav lift.


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## ImDennis (Dec 7, 2013)

i do ass to grass, box squats allow me to go alot heavier then if i go ass to grass, the progress for ass to grass is alot slower then something like box squats or parallel but it works the legs alot better so i just stick to that


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 7, 2013)

joliver said:


> I love squatting off of the box.  I feel like it gives me the break in eccentric and concentric chain like a pause squat, without the kinetic loading of my tendons in the hole.  I squat as wide as I can.  It tightens my hips and helps me use my posterior chain muscles to power out.
> 
> I see too many people that hate box squatting, and for the life of me, I cant figure out why...



They hate it because 1. they don't know how and/or 2. They are unable to keep tight. 



ImDennis said:


> i do ass to grass, box squats allow me to go alot heavier then if i go ass to grass, the progress for ass to grass is alot slower then something like box squats or parallel but it works the legs alot better so i just stick to that



They should progress equally if you program it correctly.  Maximal strength development is maximal strength development.


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## TheBlob (Dec 7, 2013)

Yeah I cant offer lots of input on results,, but im for sure incorporating box squats now into ny own workout far too many reports on strength increase to ignore them


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## Joliver (Dec 7, 2013)

I rarely free squat for max.  The box squat is my strength test for how I am going to perform at a meet.  

I do use wide stance free squatting for my repetition days.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 8, 2013)

One downside to them now that I think about it. I have good leg development. But they're funny looking. The top of the the quads are swole, so are the hips. But my ass and hamstrings are what make pants tough to buy. From the side view my hamstrings have a huge sweep to them. No V. Medialis. Probably my own genetics really but its funny. My training partner makes fun of me


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## NbleSavage (Dec 8, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> One downside to them now that I think about it. I have good leg development. But they're funny looking. The top of the the quads are swole, so are the hips. But my ass and hamstrings are what make pants tough to buy. From the side view my hamstrings have a huge sweep to them. No V. Medialis. Probably my own genetics really but its funny. My training partner makes fun of me



He wants dat ass. I suggest a ball gag and chloroform for your next "training session".


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## Hero Swole (Dec 8, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> One downside to them now that I think about it. I have good leg development. But they're funny looking. The top of the the quads are swole, so are the hips. But my ass and hamstrings are what make pants tough to buy. From the side view my hamstrings have a huge sweep to them. No V. Medialis. Probably my own genetics really but its funny. My training partner makes fun of me



girls love that pob. especially when it not just muscle but theres a lil bit of junk in the trunk. buahaha


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## Joliver (Dec 8, 2013)

No doubt box squatting will give you massive posterior.  The only way I stay balanced is that I front squat often and heavy as hell.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 8, 2013)

joliver said:


> No doubt box squatting will give you massive posterior.  The only way I stay balanced is that I front squat often and heavy as hell.



I used to front squat frequently as an accessory to my conventional pull. Have not done them for a while.  I should work those back in tomorrow.


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## Seeker (Dec 8, 2013)

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## Joliver (Dec 8, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> I used to front squat frequently as an accessory to my conventional pull. Have not done them for a while.  I should work those back in tomorrow.



Any time of year is a great time of year to front squat, but especially now...

So many useless New Year Resolutions.  Make one that counts.  Mine is to front squat 500lbs.  Which means its time to belt squat...do good mornings...lots of pause squatting.  Sounds like a plan.


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## Seeker (Dec 8, 2013)

For me squats are king of all exercises.  There is no day in the gym more satisfying for me then when I'm squatting, whether it be conventional ( which is more of what I do ) box squats, speed squats, pause squats, front squats,  high bar, low bar, close stance, wide Stance. You can come to me and say " Seeker lets do this today for squats" and I'll say " sure lets do it"   I LOVE SQUATS !! No other exercise will do more for you overall then the squat.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 8, 2013)

ImDennis said:


> i do ass to grass, box squats allow me to go alot heavier then if i go ass to grass, the progress for ass to grass is alot slower then something like box squats or parallel but it works the legs alot better so i just stick to that



The one problem with truly going ass to grass when squatting isn't about the weight you use or whatever. It's flexibility. Most people lack the flexibility to go ass to grass and to compensate you get excessive rounding in the low back (you'll be torquing your spine) and to get ass to grass you have to release tension in your hamstrings. This stops you from using hip drive coming out of the bottom position. Hip drive is a necessary component to a free squat (back squats and to a certain extent front squats as well). It shouldn't be thought of as a bounce really.

 The eccentric portion of the squat as you're coming down lengthens the hamstring muscles around the back of the knee. As you go below parallel where the crease in your shorts or pants at the hips is below the top of your patella, the hamstrings get stretched even more and get kinetic energy stored in them. Once you transition into the concentric part (where you explode up) of the lift you use this stored kinetic energy in the hamstrings. Your mind should be thinking hips up. Imagine someone pulling on your tailbone with a chain from above or someone pushing down on the top of your ass/tailbone area and you pushing against it. This is hip drive. It's using the stored energy in your muscles to power the lift. The timing has to be worked on to be optimal, as soon as you hit proper depth you should use hip drive and explode up using the hamstrings. When you go ass to grass most people must round their lower back so much that the hamstring muscles can no longer be stretched and they loosen up. If they loosen from your lower back rounding you have effectively removed the hamstrings from the lift (the hamstrings and glutes are the primary movers of a back squat) and lost hip drive. Lack of hamstring development will happen and since one of the leading causes of ACL injuries is disproportionate development of posterior chain muscles and especially glutes, this increases your risk of injury. Not only do you stop using one of the largest muscles in your body and working it in arguably the most important lift but you increase your chances of getting hurt. Not to mention possibly pulling a hamstring muscle if your lower back does not bend for whatever reason. 

Most Olympic weight lifters have this flexibility. It's not so common in Bb'ers and PL'ers. Id suggest that you just go to slightly below parallel then stop. If you want to go a lower, get a camera and a box. Record yourself doing a squat and find out where your lower back starts to round. Get a box at that height. Box squat for a few sessions so your proprioceptive feedback will 'reteach' you proper depth. Trust me I used to go ass to grass and brag about it. All I got was slower development and injuries in both my knees. I've retaught myself depth and my progress has benefited. My hamstrings exploded in size and development and I got stronger too. One of the best fukkin changes I've ever made to my squat form. Either way stay safe and everybody:

DO YOUR FREAKING SQUATS lol


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## Joliver (Dec 8, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> The one problem with truly going ass to grass when squatting isn't about the weight you use or whatever. It's flexibility. Most people lack the flexibility to go ass to grass and to compensate you get excessive rounding in the low back (you'll be torquing your spine) and to get ass to grass you have to release tension in your hamstrings. This stops you from using hip drive coming out of the bottom position. Hip drive is a necessary component to a free squat (back squats and to a certain extent front squats as well). It shouldn't be thought of as a bounce really.
> 
> The eccentric portion of the squat as you're coming down lengthens the hamstring muscles around the back of the knee. As you go below parallel where the crease in your shorts or pants at the hips is below the top of your patella, the hamstrings get stretched even more and get kinetic energy stored in them. Once you transition into the concentric part (where you explode up) of the lift you use this stored kinetic energy in the hamstrings. Your mind should be thinking hips up. Imagine someone pulling on your tailbone with a chain from above or someone pushing down on the top of your ass/tailbone area and you pushing against it. This is hip drive. It's using the stored energy in your muscles to power the lift. The timing has to be worked on to be optimal, as soon as you hit proper depth you should use hip drive and explode up using the hamstrings. When you go ass to grass most people must round their lower back so much that the hamstring muscles can no longer be stretched and they loosen up. If they loosen from your lower back rounding you have effectively removed the hamstrings from the lift (the hamstrings and glutes are the primary movers of a back squat) and lost hip drive. Lack of hamstring development will happen and since one of the leading causes of ACL injuries is disproportionate development of posterior chain muscles and especially glutes, this increases your risk of injury. Not only do you stop using one of the largest muscles in your body and working it in arguably the most important lift but you increase your chances of getting hurt. Not to mention possibly pulling a hamstring muscle if your lower back does not bend for whatever reason.
> 
> ...



I knew you were a real doctor!  Seriously, an excellent post.  

For powerlifters, having the hip flexibility to drop your ass to the turf isn't necessarily a good thing.  Tightness in the hips is helpful to me.  It gives me stopping power.  In a perfect world, it would take 1000lbs to drop the crease of my hip below the top of my knee.

Oly lifters have perfectly honed Golgi tendon organs. They have developed an ability to kinetically load muscles and tendons beyond the norm because in the Olympic lifts, it is possible to store more of that energy in larger muscles with larger tendons.  None of them believe that they are in a physiologically superior or advantaged position to perform the lift, but what are the other options?  You cannot place that burden on the upper body.  So they train that flexibility and learn to bounce that weight to the catch position (clean and jerk).  If I double clutched 405 off my ankles, I would be parking in the front of every parking lot for the next 6 months.....


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## Azog (Dec 8, 2013)

Seeker said:


> For me squats are king of all exercises.  There is no day in the gym more satisfying for me then when I'm squatting, whether it be conventional ( which is more of what I do ) box squats, speed squats, pause squats, front squats,  high bar, low bar, close stance, wide Stance. You can come to me and say " Seeker lets do this today for squats" and I'll say " sure lets do it"   I LOVE SQUATS !! No other exercise will do more for you overall then the squat.



In my head the only "real" training days of my week are those including squats and deads! Upper body only days feel...insignificant. I still push 'em hard, but they just don't bring that same sense of satisfaction.


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## ImDennis (Dec 8, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> The one problem with truly going ass to grass when squatting isn't about the weight you use or whatever. It's flexibility. Most people lack the flexibility to go ass to grass and to compensate you get excessive rounding in the low back (you'll be torquing your spine) and to get ass to grass you have to release tension in your hamstrings. This stops you from using hip drive coming out of the bottom position. Hip drive is a necessary component to a free squat (back squats and to a certain extent front squats as well). It shouldn't be thought of as a bounce really.
> 
> The eccentric portion of the squat as you're coming down lengthens the hamstring muscles around the back of the knee. As you go below parallel where the crease in your shorts or pants at the hips is below the top of your patella, the hamstrings get stretched even more and get kinetic energy stored in them. Once you transition into the concentric part (where you explode up) of the lift you use this stored kinetic energy in the hamstrings. Your mind should be thinking hips up. Imagine someone pulling on your tailbone with a chain from above or someone pushing down on the top of your ass/tailbone area and you pushing against it. This is hip drive. It's using the stored energy in your muscles to power the lift. The timing has to be worked on to be optimal, as soon as you hit proper depth you should use hip drive and explode up using the hamstrings. When you go ass to grass most people must round their lower back so much that the hamstring muscles can no longer be stretched and they loosen up. If they loosen from your lower back rounding you have effectively removed the hamstrings from the lift (the hamstrings and glutes are the primary movers of a back squat) and lost hip drive. Lack of hamstring development will happen and since one of the leading causes of ACL injuries is disproportionate development of posterior chain muscles and especially glutes, this increases your risk of injury. Not only do you stop using one of the largest muscles in your body and working it in arguably the most important lift but you increase your chances of getting hurt. Not to mention possibly pulling a hamstring muscle if your lower back does not bend for whatever reason.
> 
> ...



doc you dont lift doe.... ima ask rumpy bout this...


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## Joliver (Dec 8, 2013)

Azog said:


> In my head the only "real" training days of my week are those including squats and deads! Upper body only days feel...insignificant. I still push 'em hard, but they just don't bring that same sense of satisfaction.



That's right, because if a guy benches more than me, but I squat and dead more than he does....I am functionally stronger than him.  

Its people that don't think like Azog that fill our gyms with 240lb muscular pussies.


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