# Joint help!!!



## BustaCapps (Jul 28, 2021)

I’m currently on a test cycle and I’m taking aromasin for my AI. My joints are achy and my hip (it’s been replaced two times) is extremely painful. Tomorrow I’m gonna pick up some tri-flex (MSM/glut/chron) and some cissus. Just wondering if anybody had any other recommendations? Or if anyone has any advice, I’m all ears. Thanks for any help.


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## Bro Bundy (Jul 28, 2021)

A side effect of taking to much AI is painful joints . Make sure your not over doing it with the aromasin


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## eazy (Jul 28, 2021)

deca.

 fish oil, _glucosamine, hydrolyzed collagen, t_urmeric, curcumin


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## flenser (Jul 28, 2021)

Gelatin. A lot of old time BBs used to swear by it. I tried it out of curiosity, since I have osteoarthritus in... well everywhere now, and never looked back. 

I used to just down a packet of sugar free jello mixed in a half glass of water every night. It works but tastes nasty. Now I make gelatin gummy bear snacks from the jello and about triple the amount of unflavored gelatin. 1 calorie each and pure protein.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 28, 2021)

Bro Bundy said:


> A side effect of taking to much AI is painful joints . Make sure your not over doing it with the aromasin



Yeah the gyno started and I prob took too much bc that scares me. Not an extreme amount but it’s calmed down so I can ease up on it now. Thanks man.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 28, 2021)

flenser said:


> Gelatin. A lot of old time BBs used to swear by it. I tried it out of curiosity, since I have osteoarthritus in... well everywhere now, and never looked back.
> 
> I used to just down a packet of sugar free jello mixed in a half glass of water every night. It works but tastes nasty. Now I make gelatin gummy bear snacks from the jello and about triple the amount of unflavored gelatin. 1 calorie each and pure protein.









That’s why I asked…never would have thought of that. Would you mind sharing how you make the gummy bears?


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## BustaCapps (Jul 28, 2021)

eazy said:


> deca.
> 
> fish oil, _glucosamine, hydrolyzed collagen, t_urmeric, curcumin



I was reading up on it and that was a recommendation that I read a lot…I’m gonna lower the test and add Deca in…was gonna order tonight. Should I go with Deca or NPP? I would rather not have to pin so often but if it would be more beneficial I will.


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## eazy (Jul 28, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I was reading up on it and that was a recommendation that I read a lot…I’m gonna lower the test and add Deca in…was gonna order tonight. Should I go with Deca or NPP? I would rather not have to pin so often but if it would be more beneficial I will.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Deca may cause bloating. Will stay in your body 2 weeks after the last injection. Won't start working for 24-48 hours after the first injection.

NPP no bloat. will be working after a few hours of the first injection. only stays in body 5 days.  if you come across any unwanted side effects, or your body does not tolerate this particular steroid well, then you only have a few days to wait before it is out of your bloodstream.

I've used both. Don't mind pinning more often and prefer NPP.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

eazy said:


> Deca may cause bloating. Will stay in your body 2 weeks after the last injection. Won't start working for 24-48 hours after the first injection.
> 
> NPP no bloat. will be working after a few hours of the first injection. only stays in body 5 days. if you come across any unwanted side effects, or your body does not tolerate this particular steroid well, then you only have a few days to wait before it is out of your bloodstream.
> 
> I've used both. Don't mind pinning more often and prefer NPP.



Perfect bro thank you. I’m pinning test e twice a week right now so I could just pin the NPP at the same time if it last 5 days…right? 


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## eazy (Jul 29, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Perfect bro thank you. I’m pinning test e twice a week right now so I could just pin the NPP at the same time if it last 5 days…right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


eod is better


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## eazy (Jul 29, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Perfect bro thank you. I’m pinning test e twice a week right now so I could just pin the NPP at the same time if it last 5 days…right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


eod is better


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## flenser (Jul 29, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> That’s why I asked…never would have thought of that. Would you mind sharing how you make the gummy bears?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mix a 0.3 oz pack of sugar free jell-o with two tablespoons of beef gelatin powder and 1/3 cup of water. Heat and stir until smooth, but no longer. Eye drop them into the molds. There are a ton of different molds out there.

They will harden by themselves, but I prefer to stick them in the fridge. I usually mix triple the above all at once to fill 4 molds.


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## CJ (Jul 29, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> That’s why I asked…never would have thought of that. Would you mind sharing how you make the gummy bears?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can also buy packs of pure gelatin at the supermarket. I used to mix it in with my morning coffee. It was fine.


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 29, 2021)

How much Aromasin did you take when you said you probably took too much? Any other sides? Low mood, low sex drive? Best way to crash e2 is doing exactly that, just like testosterone and steroids,  Aromasin takes time to work so going off what you've said I'd say crashed e2


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## MrBafner (Jul 29, 2021)

A lot of people take Glucosamine for joint support .. I've never had joint problems, so never looked into it. Just people telling me what they do for their problems.


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## Send0 (Jul 29, 2021)

Chances are that you crashed your E2. Lay off it for a bit and your joints will feel better without having to add anything extra. What amount of AI did you take?

There are several ways to combat high E2. You can lower your weekly amount of Test, or inject long ester test ED or EOD... both will result in lower E2. Go get an E2 ultrasensitive lab test done about 2-3 weeks after doing this. If lab work indicates you still need an AI after this, then start with a low dose; something like 10mg - 12.5mg of aromasin 2x per week.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

flenser said:


> I mix a 0.3 oz pack of sugar free jell-o with two tablespoons of beef gelatin powder and 1/3 cup of water. Heat and stir until smooth, but no longer. Eye drop them into the molds. There are a ton of different molds out there.
> 
> They will harden by themselves, but I prefer to stick them in the fridge. I usually mix triple the above all at once to fill 4 molds.



Perfect! Thanks for sending me that, I’m gonna make some tomorrow for sure. Much appreciated.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> You can also buy packs of pure gelatin at the supermarket. I used to mix it in with my morning coffee. It was fine.



That’s easier for sure…if it doesn’t affect the taste and consistency of the coffee too much I’m good with that. Thanks bro


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> How much Aromasin did you take when you said you probably took too much? Any other sides? Low mood, low sex drive? Best way to crash e2 is doing exactly that, just like testosterone and steroids, Aromasin takes time to work so going off what you've said I'd say crashed e2



I don’t know if I crashed it but if I didn’t I was close…I had low mood and achy joints…I took 25mg per day for several days. I’m gonna try and get by with 12.5 on the days I pin…(2xweek)


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

MrBafner said:


> A lot of people take Glucosamine for joint support .. I've never had joint problems, so never looked into it. Just people telling me what they do for their problems.



Yeah I’ve heard that too…triflex has that and MSM and chrondrointin.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 29, 2021)

Send0 said:


> Chances are that you crashed your E2. Lay off it for a bit and your joints will feel better without having to add anything extra. What amount of AI did you take?
> 
> There are several ways to combat high E2. You can lower your weekly amount of Test, or inject long ester test ED or EOD... both will result in lower E2. Go get an E2 ultrasensitive lab test done about 2-3 weeks after doing this. If lab work indicates you still need an AI after this, then start with a low dose; something like 10mg - 12.5mg of aromasin 2x per week.



I’m not sure I completely crashed it…I already feel a lot better. I took 25mg a day for several days. For now I’m gonna take 12.5 mg when I pin which is 2x per week. I was told the same thing about long ester ED which will make the E2 level out. I’m gonna either drop the level of test because I’m stocked up on test e and I have some test c but not enough and add NPP or just order some more test c. The gyno symptoms have calmed down so could I do the test now?


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 30, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I don’t know if I crashed it but if I didn’t I was close…I had low mood and achy joints…I took 25mg per day for several days. I’m gonna try and get by with 12.5 on the days I pin…(2xweek)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You've tanked your e2 bro
Take a low dose of dbol for a few days if you want to get it fixed quickly but otherwise it will come good, just have to ride it out mate
DO NOT TAKE ANY MORE AI, you shouldn't touch them unless you actually get symptoms then try 12.5mg a day for 2-3 days then 12.5mg on injection days for 2 weeks or so, like I said ai's need time to work


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## Sicwun88 (Jul 30, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Yeah the gyno started and I prob took too much bc that scares me. Not an extreme amount but it’s calmed down so I can ease up on it now. Thanks man.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fish oil & Deca!
2 hip replacements?
Tht prolly is more of the problem 
Than the Al?


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## BustaCapps (Jul 30, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> You've tanked your e2 bro
> Take a low dose of dbol for a few days if you want to get it fixed quickly but otherwise it will come good, just have to ride it out mate
> DO NOT TAKE ANY MORE AI, you shouldn't touch them unless you actually get symptoms then try 12.5mg a day for 2-3 days then 12.5mg on injection days for 2 weeks or so, like I said ai's need time to work



I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.


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## BustaCapps (Jul 30, 2021)

Sicwun88 said:


> Fish oil & Deca!
> 2 hip replacements?
> Tht prolly is more of the problem
> Than the Al?



Well of course the hip is a problem I was just saying that because of that it’s made it hurt worse if you get what I’m saying. The AI made all my joints achy but bc of the hip problem it made it much worse than the others.


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## CJ (Jul 30, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try the day after your injections. I've always heard the half lives line up better that way.


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 30, 2021)

Sicwun88 said:


> Fish oil & Deca!
> 2 hip replacements?
> Tht prolly is more of the problem
> Than the Al?


The ai was 100% the problem mate and deca won't help tanked e2


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 31, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't be going near an ai for 3-4 weeks at least mate , it takes longer than 2 days to bounce back, start using nolva 20mg on pin days as ai's are no good for you. Nolva gets rid of any old or current gyno at the same time at 20mg a day for 3 months, much better then an ai


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## Migmaster (Jul 31, 2021)

My knees, hips, ankles all have ton of wear and tear from steel industry. Deca made me feel 20 years younger but damn I kept a swollen head for 10 weeks of the cycle


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 31, 2021)

Migmaster said:


> My knees, hips, ankles all have ton of wear and tear from steel industry. Deca made me feel 20 years younger but damn I kept a swollen head for 10 weeks of the cycle


Yeah deca will do that but it won't help crashed e2 lol


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Jul 31, 2021)

Much of the advice given by the members is solid; Joint health is a replete search on UG and has been covered with great suggestions here, like:

--> fish oil  3-13g (yes 13G) of fish oil ED to reduce INFLAMMATION:  similar to Turmeric which is excellent as a powder in warm water with Apple Cider Vinegar. this allows you to mega dose this compound: similar anti-inflammatory supps. MSM, GC, and Collagen peptides-->Peptide products include specific key AAs for collagen synthesis and repair, not found in WHEY protein.
---> MK677 is also used by my clients and have reported excellent joint relief (just dont pay crazy website prices per gram, or worse liquid at 750mg total/bottle). several do 15mg AM/15mg PM.
-->injectable/HGH would also be restorative for increased Collagen synthesis & has become affordable.
--> Nandrolone: Seems to be the only AAS that I've read research backing its anti-inflammatory effects. The member who runs the Articles section here has posted an article about this before if you would like to do a search. All other research on this topic reports other AAS negatively effecting joint health, joint recovery post-surgery etc.
Best,
MuscleMedicineMD


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 31, 2021)

MuscleMedicineMD said:


> Much of the advice given by the members is solid; Joint health is a replete search on UG and has been covered with great suggestions here, like:
> 
> --> fish oil  3-13g (yes 13G) of fish oil ED to reduce INFLAMMATION:  similar to Turmeric which is excellent as a powder in warm water with Apple Cider Vinegar. this allows you to mega dose this compound: similar anti-inflammatory supps. MSM, GC, and Collagen peptides-->Peptide products include specific key AAs for collagen synthesis and repair, not found in WHEY protein.
> ---> MK677 is also used by my clients and have reported excellent joint relief (just dont pay crazy website prices per gram, or worse liquid at 750mg total/bottle). several do 15mg AM/15mg PM.
> ...


Yeah bro I take between 10-15g of fish oil daily depending on how much Flaxseed oil I add to meals


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Jul 31, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I’m not sure I completely crashed it…I already feel a lot better. I took 25mg a day for several days. For now I’m gonna take 12.5 mg when I pin which is 2x per week. I was told the same thing about long ester ED which will make the E2 level out.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Since this July has been so busy, I havent had time to fulfill my obligation to answer medical questions/related discussions (I saw this thread which turned out not to be a 'true' med inquiry), but decided anyway to add to the suggestions (reviewed above) & highlight important points here, not otherwise discussed (may start friendly debate/opinions/open conversation:

1.The AI that you are taking, Aromasin @12.5-25mg/d , is a suicide inhibitor type I, and although it does reach highest blood concentrations in 2.3-3.1hrs per its literature, this medication doesn't reach full or peak aromatase enzyme inhibition until later, roughly occurring @ 2-3 DAYS..
So OZinPhil is right on, this drug will take time to have its specific effects, plus Estrogens clearance.
but.. 
Once irreversibly inhibited, your enzyme levels and therefor E, will remain low until enough AI is eliminated (t1/2: 1day) & enzyme is remade (Tr&Tr takes time). less 'harsh' medicines remove this potential problem.  

2. Yes AI's, type 1 or 2, have their place, particularly if you are experiencing "Global" estrogenic side effects (see #4) but what about a single localized symptom? 

-Estrogen is extremely important physiologically for optimal functioning, growth, plus is bone, neuro, and cardioprotective. Therefor many users would rather let estrogen sides be addressed via modulation/blockade (ie. Nolvadex, Reloxifene) if ones' main symptom is breast related (ie. ichy, painful, puffy nipples). Such signs & symptoms often occur 1st and at lower E levels then more diffuse symptoms, and do require a prompt but non-emergent response (ie. act, dont panic).

-Nolvadex breast-tissue drug concentration is 10x that of systemic circulation, and its metabolites more than 70x, allowing for tissue directed effects vs. AI suicide inhibitors. Thus, they offer a quicker, much less expensive, as well as less systemically "harsh"/harmful solution if breast is really the only negative symptom experienced by the patient OR as an adjunct therapy if one experiences a sudden sx flare-up (vs. doubling your AI dose). lastly, Nolvadex has positive effects on LDL Cholesterol and Bone Mineral Density. 

Now,  when comparing those 2 SERMs (they are completely distinct structurally and vary in 3 important ways) both relatively quickly reach peak levels in just 3-6 hrs for Tamoxifen and 0.5-6hrs for Raloxifene where they can then partially antagonize ER in breast tissue, forming SERM-metabolite:ER complex, lasting up to 2 days. Raloxifene half life is much shorter than Tamoxifen, roughly 1.5 days (so tapper, dont suddenly DC).
*Due to slow elimination via high protein binding rates, only a short course (effect is dose dependent) may be needed to halt symptoms with Tamoxifen while you adjust dose or schedule.

3. Injecting E3D, maybe EOD: smaller peak concentrations obviously lowers aromatization rates; but ED injections of a long ester like Test E/C to lower aromatization rates, is likely overkill imo, unless using very high doses and you havent reached steady-state concentration (ie, 4-5 half-lives).  
Otherwise the difference in [blood-T] peaks is small and not enough to overwhelm our natural SHBG blood protein surplus..
It's the large fluctuations our bodies cannot keep up with, leaving a larger proportion free temporarily to be bound by as much Aromatase as is free itself, looking around for a substrate! 5-AR is lookin too
This also means, you may require less AI at wk 8 vs. wk 3.

4..Having an AI "on hand" may be useful IF you start noticing any true systemic symptoms of high E: ** (Erectile Dysfunction, dec. libido, Bloating, fatigue at the gym, Night sweats, insomnia etc.)**
(Some just have sensitive nipples often noted in puberty but do not experience clear High E sx).
** AI's do have advantages, they are certainly stronger! if the goal is very low E, contest day dryness, they are essential. 1 specific selling point on paper (that starts with 'i')? where are the guru's?

5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.
Effects from that single dose will peak blood concentration in 3hrs, BUT peak in effectiveness of reducing Aromatase activity (the goal) will occur between in 2-3 DAYS. Check any graph of Test C/E (is effected by inj location, oil viscosity etc) you will see levels peak between 10.5-24hr and slowly decrease. Peak enzyme inh. should precede slightly, peak Test blood conc.

Best,
MuscleMedicineMD


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Jul 31, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I’m gonna either drop the level of test because I’m stocked up on test e and I have some test c but not enough and add NPP or just order some more test c. The gyno symptoms have calmed down so could I do the test now?


Busta; this last part is confusing. IF you have plenty of Test E (assuming its excellent if you stocked up?) why would you drop the Test or need to order more Test C?

Just start using the Test E in its place (read sticky on "Esters" if needed), keep the Test where it is (dont sweat the tiny differences in Mol.weight, ester cleavage etc.), and if you would like for jt. relief and better muscle gains (great synergy) add DECA or NPP (all we are discussing here is pharmacokenetics + a little brosci).
** NPP250 is def one of my favorites which you can easily do 2x/wk or EOD (as I do it, though other factors are involved, if are doing less total MLs/wk you could do it all in 2shots/wk).

Note: NPP Kenetics graph shows the SLOW decrease over 0-3.5 days,
a larger drop around day 4, then a complete drop at day 5.
Meaning= EOD is best from a blood concentration POV, but maybe not logistically etc. So unless you are getting paid to look like a BBer, it may not be necessary to fuss over the 1.5day difference btw injections, but thats totally your call.

Nandrolone DOES interact wkly with Aromatase and convert to relatively small amounts of Estrogen at lower dosages. More importantly it is a progestin (it behaves like/has progestogenic properties) and thus will augment the ER, often by making downstream receptor actions more efficient leading to an overall increased Sensitivity!
**Having a Binding affinity nearly 1/4 of Progesterone itself is significant.
19 yrs ago, during my 1st 200test/200deca cycle (2nd overall), it was certainly apparent too! E & P Signs/Sx galore lol and I am NOT very sensitive to high E levels. So if you feel you are, just be aware of this interplay as similar E levels results in significantly greater effects!

Hopefully my responses gives you some things to look into further,
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD

ps. It's all your choice, but getting ultra sensitive E2 test is not necessary at this point, esp if that is the only value your interested at the moment. Medically in endo you treat symptoms not numbers, so if symptomatically you feel good, it really doesnt add much help for the effort.


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## OZinPHIL (Jul 31, 2021)

MuscleMedicineMD said:


> Since this July has been so busy, I havent had time to fulfill my obligation to answer medical questions/related discussions (I saw this thread which turned out not to be a 'true' med inquiry), but decided anyway to add to the suggestions (reviewed above) & highlight important points here, not otherwise discussed (may start friendly debate/opinions/open conversation:
> 
> 1.The AI that you are taking, Aromasin @12.5-25mg/d , is a suicide inhibitor type I, and although it does reach highest blood concentrations in 2.3-3.1hrs per its literature, this medication doesn't reach full or peak aromatase enzyme inhibition until later, roughly occurring @ 2-3 DAYS..
> So OZinPhil is right on, this drug will take time to have its specific effects, plus Estrogens clearance.
> ...


Very well said, you definitely are a very knowledgeable person, one question while on the subject, I've just started my 3 months of nolva at 20mg ed for 3 months for an older gyno lump,  when will i start noticing the lump get smaller mate?


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## CJ (Jul 31, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> Try the day after your injections. I've always heard the half lives line up better that way.





MuscleMedicineMD said:


> 5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.
> Effects from that single dose will peak blood concentration in 3hrs, BUT peak in effectiveness of reducing Aromatase activity (the goal) will occur between in 2-3 DAYS. Check any graph of Test C/E (is effected by inj location, oil viscosity etc) you will see levels peak between 10.5-24hr and slowly decrease. Peak enzyme inh. should precede slightly, peak Test blood conc.
> 
> Best,
> MuscleMedicineMD


I stand corrected, thank you sir.


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Jul 31, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> Very well said, you definitely are a very knowledgeable person, one question while on the subject, I've just started my 3 months of nolva at 20mg ed for 3 months for an older gyno lump,  when will i start noticing the lump get smaller mate?


we'll continue with our current PMs to include specifics to you, I would just need to get a basic history about yourself, how old is this "old lump", current hormone usage, past antiestrogen therapy experience? I dont want our convo to take over BUSTAs thread.

Briefly, I would only be taking Nolva to prevent further stimulation & growth while on cycle. TRT patients should be at a dose that doesnt aggravate it, and if it is even w/in a normal E range, being that HRT is a very LT therapy, I would strongly consider getting surgery if its truly bothersome esp. if BBing med use continues to be in your future. Otherwise you are looking at taking an add. medication everyday whether AI or SERM, and Nolva will cause additional liver strain.
1st I have never treated a gyno nodule, nor have I had one personally. I speak from my education in cell histology and pathology only.
If taken, while not on any replacement, it will likely shrink the lump by 45% or more (unnoticeable?) but in time may recover a larger% of what was lost, as full E exposure returns. How long? cytosolic reduction will initially occur w/in the 1st month, followed by structural reduction the next 2mo.
Individual Drug response/tissue sensitivity varies, so outcomes cannot be predicted.
talk soon,
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD


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## lfod14 (Jul 31, 2021)

I'm another fan of Deca, been on it for years. If you want a non AAS shotgun approach try Animal's FLEX.


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## 69nites (Aug 1, 2021)

CJ275 said:


> I stand corrected, thank you sir.


No, you were correct.









						Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
					

Abstract. Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Arom




					academic.oup.com


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## CJ (Aug 1, 2021)

69nites said:


> No, you were correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was the basis of my thought process.... "Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h."  Paired with....









						Hormone kinetics after intramuscular testosterone cypionate - PubMed
					

There have not been reports analyzing in detail the reproductive hormone changes in hypogonadal men after usual therapeutic injections of testosterone cypionate (TC). In 11 hypogonadal men 200 mg intramuscular TC caused a threefold rise in serum T (peak values, days 2 to 5), a 33% increase in %...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




"...and a threefold rise of estradiol (days 2 to 7)."

I was thinking match up the peak AI effect with the beginning of the Estradiol conversion peak. 

I could be wrong in my thinking though, I am FAR from being an authority on this.


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 1, 2021)

69nites said:


> No, you were correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MusclemedMD is right, you take it the day before injection as it takes 2-3 days to actually lower estrogen, I don't fully understand the process as I get what this is saying its just that it works differently in a real life situation also confirmed by bloods I've done and seen in the past


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## 69nites (Aug 1, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> MusclemedMD is right, you take it the day before injection as it takes 2-3 days to actually lower estrogen, I don't fully understand the process as I get what this is saying its just that it works differently in a real life situation also confirmed by bloods I've done and seen in the past


Cool, guy pretending to be a doctor to sell "coaching" services and 30 post guy say clinical study is wrong. I'm sure you've both had men take it in a clinical setting and taken blood at 1,2,3,4,8,12,24,48,72,144, and 240 hours after injection to have a hard data on the effects on estrogen levels in a controlled setting.

100% more indicative of a real life situation than a documented and verifiable real life situation.


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 1, 2021)

69nites said:


> Cool, guy pretending to be a doctor to sell "coaching" services and 30 post guy say clinical study is wrong. I'm sure you've both had men take it in a clinical setting and taken blood at 1,2,3,4,8,12,24,48,72,144, and 240 hours after injection to have a hard data on the effects on estrogen levels in a controlled setting.
> 
> 100% more indicative of a real life situation than a documented and verifiable real life situation.


It's ok to be wrong mate relax lol, Science in theory is never always the same as Science in practice and not every human body will react the same on each and every day, every body is different and reacts differently biologicaly and that's a fact mate,  in saying that taking aromasin the day before is the correct way in an enhanced setting, I've been in this game alot longer that 30 posts mate haha


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## BigSwolePump (Aug 1, 2021)

Every time I see this type of post, I never see the obvious answer so here goes....again

IF your joints are aching during a cycle, you body is telling you something.

"Hey dummy, we got too strong to fast and you aren't letting me rest long enough to repair myself" -Your Body

If you want to ignore yourself, try lowering the weight and adding reps and/or lowering rest time between sets.

If natural, long lasting remedies aren't your thing, add deca, fish oil or glucosamine to your list of extra shit to add to you already worn out body.


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## BustaCapps (Aug 1, 2021)

MuscleMedicineMD said:


> Busta; this last part is confusing. IF you have plenty of Test E (assuming its excellent if you stocked up?) why would you drop the Test or need to order more Test C?
> 
> Just start using the Test E in its place (read sticky on "Esters" if needed), keep the Test where it is (dont sweat the tiny differences in Mol.weight, ester cleavage etc.), and if you would like for jt. relief and better muscle gains (great synergy) add DECA or NPP (all we are discussing here is pharmacokenetics + a little brosci).
> ** NPP250 is def one of my favorites which you can easily do 2x/wk or EOD (as I do it, though other factors are involved, if are doing less total MLs/wk you could do it all in 2shots/wk).
> ...



Thanks for all the info! Two questions…so nolvadex would be best bc the gyno symptoms is all the symptoms I’m having correct? What dosage should I take? Also, what sides will I get from going with NPP or Deca due to the progestin increase? Will I need anything other than nolvadex or aromasin? 


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## BustaCapps (Aug 1, 2021)

BigSwolePump said:


> Every time I see this type of post, I never see the obvious answer so here goes....again
> 
> IF your joints are aching during a cycle, you body is telling you something.
> 
> ...



My worn out body? Wtf…how do you know my body is worn out? Just bc of the hip? It was avascular necrosis and all my other joints are fine. They put a defective implant in me the first time. My symptoms were from too much AI, now that it has gotten out of my system my joints are back to normal and not achy. Should problem ready what the person is saying before coming at someone like that. 


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## BigSwolePump (Aug 1, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> My worn out body? Wtf…how do you know my body is worn out? Just bc of the hip? It was avascular necrosis and all my other joints are fine. They put a defective implant in me the first time. My symptoms were from too much AI, now that it has gotten out of my system my joints are back to normal and not achy. Should problem ready what the person is saying before coming at someone like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure that you misunderstood every piece of my post. 

You're absolutely correct. I don't know that your body is worn out but I can tell you that pain is your body telling you something.

Having achy joints is very common during a cycle because we push ourselves harder and we get stronger thus causing pain to joints almost every time.

All I'm trying to get across here, is that doing something as simple as stressing the body less goes a long way in fixing things as simple as joint pain.

If your issues are fixed by lowering your AI dose, awesome. Less is best, mission accomplished.

I understand that you are new here and maybe it takes a little time to get warmed up to my responses.

Good luck


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 2, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Thanks for all the info! Two questions…so nolvadex would be best bc the gyno symptoms is all the symptoms I’m having correct? What dosage should I take? Also, what sides will I get from going with NPP or Deca due to the progestin increase? Will I need anything other than nolvadex or aromasin?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes mate use 20mg nolva on pin days or 2-3 times a week and do some reading up on it so you get the correct information as these forums are full of misinformation.
You shouldn't need caber for prolactin on deca or npp but it's another one that has worse sides than any ai so try to steer clear of caber etc too UNTIL you get symptoms


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## Strikeclinch (Aug 2, 2021)

Bro Bundy said:


> A side effect of taking to much AI is painful joints . Make sure your not over doing it with the aromasin


Oh ya that’s a terrible feeling I did it before and thought I had blew out my shoulders hahahah I didn’t know the sore joint thing was a side effect but that really fuckin sucked


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## Strikeclinch (Aug 2, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I’m not sure I completely crashed it…I already feel a lot better. I took 25mg a day for several days. For now I’m gonna take 12.5 mg when I pin which is 2x per week. I was told the same thing about long ester ED which will make the E2 level out. I’m gonna either drop the level of test because I’m stocked up on test e and I have some test c but not enough and add NPP or just order some more test c. The gyno symptoms have calmed down so could I do the test now?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


25 3 days In a row would def crash mine. I don’t know shit about how to use it properly so i can’t help you the one crash was enough for me I stay away and keep my dose low


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 2, 2021)

Strikeclinch said:


> 25 3 days In a row would def crash mine. I don’t know shit about how to use it properly so i can’t help you the one crash was enough for me I stay away and keep my dose low


100% bro 25mg 3 days in a row would come close to crashing anyone's I reckon haha


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## Migmaster (Aug 2, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> Yeah deca will do that but it won't help crashed e2 lol


Yep. I try to avoid those ai's but I know sometimes there's no choice.


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## BustaCapps (Aug 2, 2021)

BigSwolePump said:


> I'm pretty sure that you misunderstood every piece of my post.
> 
> You're absolutely correct. I don't know that your body is worn out but I can tell you that pain is your body telling you something.
> 
> ...



I guess I did take it the wrong way…my bad. Lowering the AI has fixed it so now I know lol


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## BustaCapps (Aug 2, 2021)

OZinPHIL said:


> Yes mate use 20mg nolva on pin days or 2-3 times a week and do some reading up on it so you get the correct information as these forums are full of misinformation.
> You shouldn't need caber for prolactin on deca or npp but it's another one that has worse sides than any ai so try to steer clear of caber etc too UNTIL you get symptoms



Thank you. I’m gonna get the nolvadex and try that. The aromasin would have been fine if I would have taken a lower dose but when my nips starting hurting I kinda freaked out lol. 


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## BustaCapps (Aug 2, 2021)

Strikeclinch said:


> Oh ya that’s a terrible feeling I did it before and thought I had blew out my shoulders hahahah I didn’t know the sore joint thing was a side effect but that really fuckin sucked



Yeah it really freaking sucked. I learned my lesson for sure lol. 


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## BustaCapps (Aug 2, 2021)

Strikeclinch said:


> 25 3 days In a row would def crash mine. I don’t know shit about how to use it properly so i can’t help you the one crash was enough for me I stay away and keep my dose low



Yeah I’m gonna try the nolvadex but I think 12.5 of aromasin the day before pinning would be plenty for me


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## BustaCapps (Aug 2, 2021)

Migmaster said:


> Yep. I try to avoid those ai's but I know sometimes there's no choice.



Yeah I’m not gonna use it unless I have symptoms and then I will go with a very low dose 


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## Migmaster (Aug 2, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I guess I did take it the wrong way…my bad. Lowering the AI has fixed it so now I know lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't clear that's my bad. Yeah I had a buddy awhile back that couldn't play basketball because of shin pain and he didn't know why. He finally told that he was taking anostrozole 1mg daily cause he upped his test dose. He had completely crashed his levels. I just saw where someone had mentioned deca earlier and if after your e2 levels were up to par and you still had alot of joint pain you might consider deca to help. And I do apologize I have no idea your level of experience and probably should have asked. Yeah I am fairly new and not very polished at posting. I do find your posts very interesting and informative. Thanks.


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## Skullcrusher (Aug 3, 2021)

I'm like the tin man until I get my elbows and knees oiled up with deca.


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 3, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Thank you. I’m gonna get the nolvadex and try that. The aromasin would have been fine if I would have taken a lower dose but when my nips starting hurting I kinda freaked out lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Welcome bro. Nolva is extremely effective at what it does in terms of blocking Estrogen’s action in target tissues such as breast tissue while at the same time letting you have higher e2 which is necessary for growth.


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## IsaacRobertson (Aug 3, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> I’m currently on a test cycle and I’m taking aromasin for my AI. My joints are achy and my hip (it’s been replaced two times) is extremely painful. Tomorrow I’m gonna pick up some tri-flex (MSM/glut/chron) and some cissus. Just wondering if anybody had any other recommendations? Or if anyone has any advice, I’m all ears. Thanks for any help.


A fish oil supplement, acupuncture, massage, chiropractic therapy, and other complementary medicine techniques have been shown in recent studies to help relieve joint discomfort caused by aromatase inhibitors.


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Aug 5, 2021)

69nites said:


> No, you were correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you for those researchers' info to discuss lol

unfortunately, you draw direct 1:1 correlations that you aren't supposed to from research, incorrectly infer results as 'facts' and show clear knowledge gaps as well as an attitude problem (for no reason).

1st. for future reference to avoid looking like a special student:
**a single article* (using 10 subjects, that was just funny) is considered mere* "info gathering"* in medicine or college bio class lol, not actual truth/fact to base decisions on! I always explain this rule to my 3yr students before they start clinicals & look uneducated, regardless if T/F, right or wrong.

2nd. Aromasin is used for BREAST CA not BLOOD cancer. Those researchers were looking to define 'max % Estrogen reduction in systemic blood circulation' in avg men. The pharmacology text book  referenced stated.. *"max aromatase inhibition" occurs at 2 days, referring to what the drug is for, fatty breast tissue cells* where stopping the cytosolic aromatase that matters, LIVES! (^below)
**Note**systemic circulating bound* blood Estrogen is NOT what is largely causing the main breast tissue symptoms, it's the newly formed (w/in the cell from Test) free/unbound intracellular E*. that's the major stimulator for us on AAS. 
* fat is well known to produce aromatase and be poorly perfused, inhibition is delayed. (^)


MuscleMedicineMD said:


> 4..Having an AI "on hand" may be* useful IF you start noticing any true systemic symptoms of high E:* ** (Erectile Dysfunction, dec. libido, Bloating, fatigue at the gym, Night sweats, insomnia etc.)**



MY Suggestion was Aromasin IS the BEST choice for "global"/ SYSTEMIC blood symptoms.



MuscleMedicineMD said:


> 5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.


sometime the day* before* (when? I was NEVER looking to split hairs here) to safely ensures that inhibition is reached *Before* hand (bc once it is, it stays awhile). *That was essentially the idea.
That's all, ideas* (just 1 out of MULTIPLE IDEAs; I think, write, and hope for open discussion of eachothers IDEAS; discussion is what is fun for me, so when some wanna be editor does so *without tact, w/o* full understanding, w/o offering constructive thoughts on the matter, it just comes off as immature and rude.
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD

ps. sorry for the delay, I only get on here 1x/wk, nice to see that the thread got traction. wish i were here earlier to clear things up.


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## MuscleMedicineMD (Aug 5, 2021)

BustaCapps said:


> Thanks for all the info! Two questions…so nolvadex would be best bc the gyno symptoms is all the symptoms I’m having correct? What dosage should I take? Also, what sides will I get from going with NPP or Deca due to the progestin increase? Will I need anything other than nolvadex or aromasin?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sure things friend! 
yes that was one of the major ideas I was proposing and explained why in probably too much detail lol 
I would suggest doing a full read up on nolvadex from dosage, mechanism, sides etc. 
Nandrolone, I cannot predict how you will react or if the sides you experience this time will match the sides down the road, my side effect profile has really changed with that compound most over 20yrs or so. 
I see blood work on AAS regularly through clients and I dont see increased progesterone to be clear. I assume I said Nandros are progestins ie. agonists at the progesterone receptor PR, and thus often make people more sensitive to E, even then they are normally.
Some people who get related symptoms choose to inhibit progesterone, others may look to control E more aggressively but this has been hotly debated for a long time as only a partial solution at best. figuring out how your body reacts is definitely part of the learning curve, not everything can be figured out on paper per se.
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD

ps. Just mention AV and you will see fear on any IM docs face! and rightfully so considering what the morbidity and mortality used to be. thank goodness for ortho surg advances. best to you.


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## 69nites (Aug 5, 2021)

MuscleMedicineMD said:


> thank you for those researchers' info to discuss lol
> 
> unfortunately, you draw direct 1:1 correlations that you aren't supposed to from research, incorrectly infer results as 'facts' and show clear knowledge gaps as well as an attitude problem (for no reason).
> 
> ...


In the future as a fake doctor on the internet, you should consider citing a source because being doctor Nick to try to sell drugs to guys with green names doesn't fly here anymore. 

I cited the only comprehensive dose response study in males with remotely granular timeframe for estrogen response.

Feel free to attempt to disprove a correlation between the suicide inhibition of aromatase and blood serum estrogen levels followed by a steady rise in estrogen due to synthesis of new aromatase. I should warn you, if you post that bullshit from postmenopausal women I'm going to immediately rebut with the data about production of new aromatase and the multiplier for how much more rapid it is in men than women, much less post menopausal women.


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## OZinPHIL (Aug 5, 2021)

69nites said:


> In the future as a fake doctor on the internet, you should consider citing a source because being doctor Nick to try to sell drugs to guys with green names doesn't fly here anymore.
> 
> I cited the only comprehensive dose response study in males with remotely granular timeframe for estrogen response.
> 
> Feel free to attempt to disprove a correlation between the suicide inhibition of aromatase and blood serum estrogen levels followed by a steady rise in estrogen due to synthesis of new aromatase. I should warn you, if you post that bullshit from postmenopausal women I'm going to immediately rebut with the data about production of new aromatase and the multiplier for how much more rapid it is in men than women, much less post menopausal women.


Are you sure you aren't in heat 🤔🤣✌


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