# Consciousness & The Nature of Reality



## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

***Because this is a thread I started I reserve the right to edit/delete posts as I see fit.  This is not a discussion about religion. 
*

What is consciousness (science doesn’t really know)? Is it a part of our physical bodies or something else?

Is part of us eternal or are we ephemeral beings, on Earth and in existence for the blink of an eye. 

Are we (humans) all connected?

Is existence a “lucky”/unlikely coincidence or did something supremely more intelligent help set the course?

Dreams, deep mediation, “assisted” vision trips: what do they mean? Is it just our personal consciousness or are we tapping into something bigger? 

Parallel Universes (many scientists think this is a likely occurance), different dimensions, a spirit realm?

I don’t have any answers. Just hunches. I am open minded and curious if others have pondered these fundamental questions. 

Personally I don’t think it very likely our physical existence & nature is a random occurrence. 

Further more almost everyone who experiences “assisted” vision trips comes back with an assurance that there is a spiritual/other worldly realm and that bodily death doesn’t mean we completely cease to exists (current experimentation with terminal cancer patients and psilocybin have yielded more peace and assurance before death). Why is this?

I’ve been on a philosophy bender recently and lamenting my lack of access to psychonauting. A friend told me I could access those places through meditation but I have doubts. I’m going to try though. 

So, let’s hear all your whacky ideas. 

There are no right answers. Only opinions. 

No personal attacks. No religion. Let’s stick with “assisted” vision trips and leave compounds out of this. 

Don’t blame me for this thread. Blame Joe Rogan.


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## Mythos (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> ***Because this is a thread I started I reserve the right to edit/delete posts as I see fit.  This is not a discussion about religion.
> *
> 
> What is consciousness (science doesn’t really know)? Is it a part of our physical bodies or something else?
> ...



All I'm gonna say is that there have been a lot of really impossible ESP type events that have occurred on this planet. Especially between twins. I think that says a lot. Also I think we have probably all experienced a little of this ourselves.
As far as psychonauting goes, I'm a proponent as long as you can handle it. Gives perspective and helps out with relationships. I think meditation can yeild similar results but it's a lot of work and patience.


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## Viduus (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin, if you want your mind blown.... watch this entire podcast with a truly open mind and just keep thinking “What if Alex is right?” regardless of how insane it sounds. The second half does into DMt and some of the topics you mentioned.


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## Trump (Apr 18, 2019)

If the universe is never ending efinity then each possible outcome of every conceivable world will be somewhere. Even someone somewhere typing this exact message as me right now sat on the shitter


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

Trump said:


> If the universe is never ending efinity then each possible outcome of every conceivable world will be somewhere. Even someone somewhere typing this exact message as me right now sat on the shitter



You are onto something. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem


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## Joliver (Apr 18, 2019)

I nearly drowned once when I was 5. I lethal weapon 2'd myself and ended up under the tarp. It was agony. Then it felt really good....it felt amazing. 

The brain is a neat little chemistry set. Have fun with it and don't hire minimum wage babysitters.


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## stonetag (Apr 18, 2019)

"Is existence a “lucky”/unlikely coincidence or did something supremely more intelligent help set the course?"

Hmmmm.....good question, a fair question, a question of the ages, a question that deserves an intelligent answer.
Well, back to my book (On the Origin of Species), carry on.


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## bigdog (Apr 18, 2019)

I think about this from time to time because ESP is a real thing. I've seen shit in my dreams many times that I'll eventually see when awake. Sometimes it's small things like a building or picture. Others it's a specific person if never seen saying something. Its weird.  Who knows what we are all a big part of or not? Either way its definitely interesting at times to think "wow I've been here before "...


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## Long (Apr 18, 2019)

I think we very much do know what consciousness is. A few years ago an article came out where they found during testing a part of the brain they could manipulate and "shut consciousness off" like a switch. Our brains are like an organic computer that controls the body, has interaction with the external world, stores and interprets data. We as individuals are a result of our specific chemical soup and interactions. 

Are humans connected?
Perhaps. The abilities of the human body and mind are far from completely mapped out.

Is existence lucky?
Sure. But look at the odds. The more we explore, discover, investigate the more it seems like life is the rule and not the exception. It seems more and more likely that the universe is teeming with life. Time and distance being the great separator. 
We can see how life changes, evolves, thrives here on our small pebble called earth. I see no reason to think an outside influence would be nessesary for the observed outcome. Knowing our nature another highly evolved species traveling around messing with life on other planets even seeding it isn't that far fetched of an idea. 

Dreams?
An unimaginable amount of data is banging around upstairs. Dreams are our minds way of processing, dealing, unloading in my opinion. 

Parallel universes?
I have no idea. I do however think this one may be cyclical. 

I think a lot of people, myself included, fill in the blanks with what we want. Or a best guess. Often the reality of a situation when discovered is far more grounded in reality,  and awe inspiring anyway than the old fill in the blank explanation.


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

stonetag said:


> "Is existence a “lucky”/unlikely coincidence or did something supremely more intelligent help set the course?"
> 
> Hmmmm.....good question, a fair question, a question of the ages, a question that deserves an intelligent answer.
> Well, back to my book (On the Origin of Species), carry on.



Why would those two ideas be incompatible? 

Perhaps an alien species “seeded” earth. 

We sill dont know how life began.... only that it evolved


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

Long said:


> I think we very much do know what consciousness is. A few years ago an article came out where they found during testing a part of the brain they could manipulate and "shut consciousness off" like a switch. Our brains are like an organic computer that controls the body, has interaction with the external world, stores and interprets data. We as individuals are a result of our specific chemical soup and interactions.
> *
> that science can fully explain consciousness is highly debatable. One study isn’t very convincing and the general consensus (both philosophical and scientific) is that we don’t quite have a grasp on it. *
> 
> ...



Reaponses above in bold. More for discussions sake than argumentative


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## Viduus (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> Why would those two ideas be incompatible?
> 
> Perhaps an alien species “seeded” earth.
> 
> We sill dont know how life began.... only that it evolved



Theres growing proof some of the original organic chemicals may have been deposited in early earth from meteorites. I forget the official name of the theory but that puts evolution beyond the early earth. 

Makes you wonder if simple organic chemicals should really be thought of as “spores”.


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## Long (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> Why would those two ideas be incompatible?
> 
> Perhaps an alien species “seeded” earth.
> 
> We sill dont know how life began.... only that it evolved



The Miller test results,  particularly the ones done like 30 years later in the unopened tubes are very interesting. 
I think it shows all the ingredients can in fact be formed through "natural processes". Given time and conditions. Interested anyway.


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## Hurt (Apr 18, 2019)

This is a question that has always fascinated me. Consciousness at minimum is an emergent property resulting from an incredibly complex symphony of of biochemical macromolecular interaction but still very hard to explain in that context. 

How does an intangible thought result from the molecular interactions taking place in our cortex? And even more fascinating - at what point along the spectrum of evolution - from single cellular precursors to present day - did that leap to consciousness occur? 

There are are a ton of hypotheses out there, but one that is pretty fun to think about is that early hominids discovered pscilocybin mushrooms and by ingesting them, experienced a shift in brain chemistry, which of course must have been epigenetic to some extent, since it influenced future lineages.


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

Long said:


> The Miller test results,  particularly the ones done like 30 years later in the unopened tubes are very interesting.
> I think it shows all the ingredients can in fact be formed through "natural processes". Given time and conditions. Interested anyway.



Unfamiliar but highly intrigued. Can you provide a link please?


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

hurt said:


> this is a question that has always fascinated me. Consciousness at minimum is an emergent property resulting from an incredibly complex symphony of of biochemical macromolecular interaction but still very hard to explain in that context.
> 
> How does an intangible thought result from the molecular interactions taking place in our cortex? And even more fascinating - at what point along the spectrum of evolution - from single cellular precursors to present day - did that leap to consciousness occur?
> 
> There are are a ton of hypotheses out there, but one that is pretty fun to think about is that early hominids discovered pscilocybin mushrooms and by ingesting them, experienced a shift in brain chemistry, which of course must have been epigenetic to some extent, since it influenced future lineages.



Yes. Very interesting theory: STONED APE THEORY. 

only recently read up on that.


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## Long (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> Reaponses above in bold. More for discussions sake than argumentative



Consciousness, 
Personally I think a mystical quality is added that isn't there. It's just computer like interaction, just chemically complicated. 

Existence, 
In general? It is the rule isn't it? Things exist. Personally it is awfully hard to grasp things not existing. I have no frame of reference to view that from so I could truly understand it. My existence? Very lucky for my personal exact makeup and outside influence came together for a me to be.

Grounded in reality. 
As in the discovered reasons, facts.
An example would be that people at one point thought the earth was the center of the solar system. The reality was we were not.


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## Long (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> Unfamiliar but highly intrigued. Can you provide a link please?



Just a random one. 
http://discovermagazine.com/2016/nov/brewing-life


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## Gadawg (Apr 18, 2019)

Many scientists believe that given the correct conditions, life will begin inevitably from extremely basic chemistry until you have things like we see every day.  

As I told you the other day Jin, and people will think Im crazy but thats's fine, I recently had what I consider to be an extremely powerful spiritual awakening due to a purposefully high dose cannabis fueled meditation.  I saw a vision of what my life could be if I let go of all my anxiety, insecurity, selfishness, and rage.  It was literally as if I was watching a movie of my future.  I saw the faults of my past and realized that abusing alcohol was completely to escape these negative emotions.  I woke up the next day and my life has been completely changed.  I hear people talk about finding Jesus and I guess that must be a similar overpowering emotional experience.


The "god" that I found was this incredibly complex world that we live in with mysteries that we will never solve.  


Afterthought:
Tuesday night after I put my daughter to bed, I drove up to my cabin in the mountains.  For the first time since Ive owned the place I just got there, ate dinner, and went to bed.  Never did that before without drinking or getting stoned.  The next morning I woke up at 4am and climbed for 4.5 miles to be on a high ridge top waiting on gobbling light (turkey hunting).  There was no gobbling yesterday morning.  Usually that would probably bum me out after all that work but I just hiked over to a little green patch and set up to just call and listen for a while.  

As I sat there, I was mesmerized by all the complex life around me.  Birds everywhere singing, flowers of all kinds, insects, giant oak trees, moss, lichens, fungi, soil anerobes, etc.  I closed my eyes and just breathed it all in.  My mind became quiet and when I opened them a few minutes later, six turkeys had entered the field.  Within five minutes I was carrying one of them off the mountain.  

I wish something like this couldve happened to me twenty years ago.  I probably wouldnt have been ready to "get it" though until just now.  You all have a good day.


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## Hurt (Apr 18, 2019)

I think we all just need to try DMT


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

Long said:


> Consciousness,
> Personally I think a mystical quality is added that isn't there. It's just computer like interaction, just chemically complicated.
> *fair. Let’s agree to disagree. I like your explanation for animal brain function. Imo human consciousness has something additional. I find it a mystical quality*
> 
> ...



As you can see, I have many more questions than I do answers!


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## Long (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> As you can see, I have many more questions than I do answers!



I think if you were to have more answers than questions you would be going about life all wrong:32 (17): The more you know the more you realize how much you don't. It's all remarkably fascinating.


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## HollyWoodCole (Apr 18, 2019)

Jesus.  WTF were you smoking on Jin..?  Next time save some for the rest of the class.


What, pray tell, is the "Ultimate Reality" that you reference above?

We are just all over the place this morning.


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## Jin (Apr 18, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> Jesus.  WTF were you smoking on Jin..?  Next time save some for the rest of the class.
> 
> 
> What, pray tell, is the "Ultimate Reality" that you reference above?
> ...



Man, I haven’t smoked anything except some cigarettes for almost a year brother. This country has very draconian drug laws and I have a family I can’t be deported away from. 

I don’t know Cole. What is the Ultimate Reality? That’s the million dollar question and I bet if each one of us knew the answer we’d be living very different lives

My guess is that the Ultimate Reality is not something I can actually comprehend fully. 

That is my issue with humanity: too arrogant. 

Are we smart? Yes. 
Do I believe in science? Yes. 

How much of what there is to know do we actually know? My guess is not that much.


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## HollyWoodCole (Apr 18, 2019)

Jin said:


> Man, I haven’t smoked anything except some cigarettes for almost a year brother. This country has very draconian drug laws and I have a family I can’t be deported away from.
> 
> I don’t know Cole. What is the Ultimate Reality? That’s the million dollar question and I bet if each one of us knew the answer we’d be living very different lives
> 
> ...


Fair enough.  Wasn't actually calling you out as a druggie like Bundy, joking with you.

What makes you feel like there is a reality greater than or different to the one that you know..?  I always support questioning status quo and conventional knowledge.  This is not a topic I've spent a lot of time thinking about simply because even if a different reality does exist there is no way really for you or I to be aware of or participate in it.

We are an arrogant bunch, completely agree with that.  Also agree that we know very little when judging on a universal scale.


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## RISE (Apr 18, 2019)

Theres some things in life that happen that really make me consider life being a simulation.  Sometimes ill be in traffic or deep in thought and it hits me just how weird our existance is compared to everything else out there.


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## Jin (Apr 19, 2019)

RISE said:


> Theres some things in life that happen that really make me consider life being a simulation.  Sometimes ill be in traffic or deep in thought and it hits me just how weird our existance is compared to everything else out there.



I’ve definitely pondered this. I think Elon Musk is convinced we are living in a simulation. 

Could you elaborate on our existence being weird? I don’t disagree, but I’d love to hear your reasons for that viewpoint.


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## DieYoungStrong (Apr 19, 2019)

I haven’t done acid in 20 years, but I’d need a tab to get involved in this thread


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## Seeker (Apr 19, 2019)

My older brother would love this thread. I'm stumped.  I love the conversation though


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## Gadawg (Apr 19, 2019)

Question EVERYTHING!  Especially the American govt.


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## Straight30weight (Apr 19, 2019)

I’ve never done drugs, that’s probably why I understand nothing going on in here.


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## Jin (Apr 19, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> I’ve never done drugs, that’s probably why I understand nothing going on in here.



Drugs are not necessary. 

Plenty of people have spiritual experiences without drugs. 

Philosophers have been been pondering this for thousands of years. 

If you’ve never experienced a spiritual experience, questioned the nature of your existence or experimented with Entheogens, then I’d bet this conversation seems very irrelevant


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## HollyWoodCole (Apr 19, 2019)

RISE said:


> Theres some things in life that happen that really make me consider life being a simulation.  Sometimes ill be in traffic or deep in thought and it hits me just how weird our existance is compared to everything else out there.


The Matrix huh..?

Actually a great concept at the time when I watched the movie, which kind of brings up a few interesting lines of thought.  I don't personally like this way of thinking, because if our lives are simulated then you have zero to little control over your life's journey.  This would lend itself to be an artificial destiny of sorts, laid out by someone else.


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## Straight30weight (Apr 19, 2019)

Jin said:


> Drugs are not necessary.
> 
> Plenty of people have spiritual experiences without drugs.
> 
> ...


Yes, completely irrelevant to me. And that’s ok. It’s fun watching y’all trip.


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## Robdjents (Apr 19, 2019)

Straight30weight said:


> I’ve never done drugs, that’s probably why I understand nothing going on in here.



Best comment ever!


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## Jin (Apr 19, 2019)

HollyWoodCole said:


> What makes you feel like there is a reality greater than or different to the one that you know..?  I always support questioning status quo and conventional knowledge.  This is not a topic I've spent a lot of time thinking about simply because even if a different reality does exist there is no way really for you or I to be aware of or participate in it.



Jim Carey is a spiritual guy with no leaning towards deity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0PA5ZMfvY

I think we can participate in The Greater Reality. Whether it’s asking the universe or yielding to it, or searching for our life’s path rather than the path we would chose out of self interest. 

“Spiritually enlightened” people and, indeed, those who have experimented with entheogens usually put a high priority on love (or at least come back with the notion that love is very important). I believe loving others is life’s highest calling. 

Thats is a very different reality than: do well in school, get a good job, nice house, hot wife, retirement home then die. 

This is many people’s reality. 

I also believe that the physical world is not all there is. I don’t believe that time exists outside our physical world. I think there are eternal things and I believe part of each of us is eternal. 

Rick Straussman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Strassman

Couldn’t make a valid (non spiritual) scientific conclusion after testing patients on dMT. Each patient had such similar experiences that his conclusion was that those experiences just might be real (not limited to the mind). Want your mind blown? Here are multiple non-drug using scientists drawing the conclusion that the spirit realm just might exist: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LtT6Xkk-kzk

Here is a very lacking metaphor. 

We are fish. Water is the fish’s Reality. It takes it for granted. It’s all they’ve ever known. 

The physical world is all we’ve ever known. We take it for granted. 

The fish can get a glimpse at the Greater Reality, but cannot survive in that realm for long. Dry land is the Spirit Realm for fish. 

They see amazing things: cars, buildings, strange creatures. But there are some things that, even if they were shown, they could never understand: the Internet for example.


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## Flyingdragon (Apr 19, 2019)

This type of discussion would not go over well with the guys and girls at the Bees.....


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## silvereyes87 (Apr 19, 2019)

This is part of (my experience)  during a few of my dmt trips i believe i was visited by higher beings in a different reality when my conciousness left my body.
Its like they are trying to communicate so much information to you in a short amount of time..
What you see and learn tends to fade very fast like a dream. But just like dreams sometimes you remember details.  One being told me.  We are all connected, and all one. Like a shard of a godlike being's soul . Another told me, life is about the experience to love, loss, pain and happiness.  
Its also to learn and evolve through these experiences.  Another told me there is a creator. And it communicates to us through love. Which if you are  spiritual you may know what i mean. I feel God the most in my heart during precious moments and experiences with people i love.  Thanks for the thread .


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## automatondan (Apr 19, 2019)

Long said:


> Consciousness,
> Personally I think a mystical quality is added that isn't there. It's just computer like interaction, just chemically complicated.
> 
> Existence,
> ...



Wouldnt your suggestion that we must be grounded in facts and then reminding us that at one point people believed (as fact) the Earth was the center of the solar system actually lend to the issue that- wherever we are in our understanding, science and then the masses believe we have it all together and correct, when statistically speaking, given a long enough time line, what we believed and held as fact will eventually be proven wrong...?


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## Bro Bundy (Apr 19, 2019)

i dont think anyone really knows what is consciousness or where it comes from..Does it die when u die or live on


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## stonetag (Apr 19, 2019)

RISE said:


> Theres some things in life that happen that really make me consider life being a simulation.  Sometimes ill be in traffic or deep in thought and it hits me just how weird our existance is compared to everything else out there.


 I've experienced that same thought, more or less. I've been on a horse ride before by myself and it will hit me, here I am, an animal, riding another animal, spinning around on a rock in the middle? of a huge expanse of exactly what? Then you read stories from past folks and their thoughts, and nothing has changed. Driving yourself nuts thinking about is always better than the other option, or is it?


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## Maijah (Apr 19, 2019)

Have you been watching Graham Hancock lately?


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## Jin (Apr 19, 2019)

Maijah said:


> Have you been watching Graham Hancock lately?



Yes. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=47ElVv3RG2M

My interest in these topics predates watching his stuff. I happen to have a pretty similar outlook.


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## Long (Apr 19, 2019)

automatondan said:


> Wouldnt your suggestion that we must be grounded in facts and then reminding us that at one point people believed (as fact) the Earth was the center of the solar system actually lend to the issue that- wherever we are in our understanding, science and then the masses believe we have it all together and correct, when statistically speaking, given a long enough time line, what we believed and held as fact will eventually be proven wrong...?



You have taken my point out of the original context a bit. My original statement summed up was that the truth when discovered is far more grounded in reality than the far fetched explanation that had been used prior in many situations but is no less interesting. Basically. 
People knew the earth was not the center of the universe, or even the solar system long before it was accepted in the times we are talking about. It wasn't "fact" that the earth was the center of the universe. It was a "pushed claim" if you will. 
I don't agree with your assessment of what is happening in science historically either. Putting aside some rather troubling outside influences that severely retarded the advancement of mans quest for knowledge (the fire at the library of Alexandria, genocide, different groups with various agendas) we have been honing our knowledge. 
Surely false claims and mistakes will fall by the wayside. That is the nature of good work. 
For example look at the ant vaccination movement. 
Can science be blamed for that? It was a scientist who wrote a paper that started it. He was paid large sums of money to do so. He admitted he lied and the paper was fraudulent. His peers all discredited the paper. He was jailed for it. Yet people push it still as fact despite the entire scientific community and the actual writer of the paper saying otherwise. 
The anti vax situation now I believe is a lot like the sun revolving around the earth situation.


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## Jin (Apr 19, 2019)

Long said:


> You have taken my point out of the original context a bit. My original statement summed up was that the truth when discovered is far more grounded in reality than the far fetched explanation that had been used prior in many situations but is no less interesting. Basically.
> People knew the earth was not the center of the universe, or even the solar system long before it was accepted in the times we are talking about. It wasn't "fact" that the earth was the center of the universe. It was a "pushed claim" if you will.
> I don't agree with your assessment of what is happening in science historically either. Putting aside some rather troubling outside influences that severely retarded the advancement of mans quest for knowledge (the fire at the library of Alexandria, genocide, different groups with various agendas) we have been honing our knowledge.
> Surely false claims and mistakes will fall by the wayside. That is the nature of good work.
> ...



Your response is appreciated. 

But let’s not get sidetracked please.


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## Long (Apr 19, 2019)

Jin said:


> Your response is appreciated.
> 
> But let’s not get sidetracked please.



My ability to stay on topic is questionable at best.


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## RISE (Apr 19, 2019)

Jin said:


> I’ve definitely pondered this. I think Elon Musk is convinced we are living in a simulation.
> 
> Could you elaborate on our existence being weird? I don’t disagree, but I’d love to hear your reasons for that viewpoint.



No prob.  We can all agree that we do things much different than anyother species on this planet.  It also goes beyond our actions and us as a species.  Its one thing to acknoweldge that we are different, but its when you really become aware that startles you.  Best example i can give is that we all know that space may be never ending.  And although we can all acknowledge it, it is almost imposible for us to really comprehend it.  Bc we have never witnessed anything with no end.  Or beginning for that matter.  There have been a couple times where i have not only acknowledged the possibility, but also fully comprehended it, and honestly its terrifying.  Not in a scary sense, but in a mindblowing sense.  This usually happens when im deep in thought to the point of zoning out.  Which might explain why i feel  like im going to pass out after everytime i experience this.  I can never get the same grasp on the concept when not in a deep state of thought.


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## Maijah (Apr 19, 2019)

Yes Jin, I think about this stuff all the time. There are so many great sources of information, just have to weed through tons of horse poop.


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## Jin (Apr 20, 2019)

Rogan, Yates, DMT & we are living in a simulation. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QoiGdktgRw0


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Food for thought:

Science has theories. 
Mathematics has proofs. 

Therefore existence (if created or designed by a superior intelligence) is, at its most basic level, math based/coded. 

Math (or love ) is the universal language. It’s why we sent mathematical proofs along with voyager because it’s assumed any intelligent life would understand math. (we sent a proof and diagram of the Pythagorean theorem).


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> Food for thought:
> 
> 
> Therefore existence (if created or designed by a superior intelligence) is, at its most basic level, math based/coded.


That's circular reasoning.


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> That's circular reasoning.



Its more of a thought than an argument. 

I’m not sure I understand why it’s circular reasoning. Can you explain. 

Let me put it another way. 

I believe in science. 
IF the physical world is designed, then it has to be based on science. 
Mathematics are the fundamental building blocks on which science relies. 

Therefore, if created or designed, our physical world is based fundamentally on mathematics. 

Is this still circular? I am not well versed in reasoning or logic


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> Its more of a thought than an argument.
> 
> I’m not sure I understand why it’s circular reasoning. Can you explain.
> 
> ...



Can I explain? Probably not. I'll try anyway :32 (17):

You are saying if something can be described, deciphered, explained, if patterns can be recognized then it must be designed. There is nothing that suggests that to be true. Mathematics can be used to explain anything because it is how we decipher everything. 
You are basically using the irreducible complexity argument. (You find a watch on the beach then you know it must have been designed because it is so complex it could not have just been formed)
That argument has been shown to be false. 

I could map a river and find a pattern in the curves. Repeating numbers if you will.
That would not prove it was designed, nor would it prove that it happened naturally. It would simply show that there us a pattern mathematically.


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## Maijah (Apr 21, 2019)

I disagree. Mathematics is the universal language. It surely equates to intelligent design. Your example of a river is not really applicable due to the fact that flowing water will alter it's banks. If you look into how mathematics equates into the dimensions of the great pyramid then you will surely see it is far more than random or coincidence


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Maijah said:


> I disagree. Mathematics is the universal language. It surely equates to intelligent design. Your example of a river is not really applicable due to the fact that flowing water will alter it's banks.



Of course it is applicable. Why would the fact it is formed by flowing water eliminate it as an example?

Mathmatics is a series of noticed patterns. You are saying "I have found a set of patterns that seem to hold true universally. Therefore if these set of patterns can be seen then things were designed."

It does not follow. It makes no sense.


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## Maijah (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> Of course it is applicable. Why would the fact it is formed by flowing water eliminate it as an example?
> 
> Mathmatics is a series of noticed patterns. You are saying "I have found a set of patterns that seem to hold true universally. Therefore if these set of patterns can be seen then things were designed."
> 
> It does not follow. It makes no sense.



Your example of a random flowing stream has many variables. I'm sure if you picked one river a mathematical equation can be assigned and then things like rate of erosion can be established. However each river is different


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> Can I explain? Probably not. I'll try anyway :32 (17):
> 
> You are saying if something can be described, deciphered, explained, if patterns can be recognized then it must be designed. There is nothing that suggests that to be true. Mathematics can be used to explain anything because it is how we decipher everything.
> You are basically using the irreducible complexity argument. (You find a watch on the beach then you know it must have been designed because it is so complex it could not have just been formed)
> ...



IF, IF, IF!!!! Our physical world is created/designed.

My post isn’t an argument for chance vs design. 

 it’s an observation regarding HOW our physical existence MIGHT be designed if it were designed/programmed.


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Maijah said:


> I disagree. Mathematics is the universal language. It surely equates to intelligent design.



The more we discover scientifically the more certain I am that there was an intelligent design.

I see no reason why intelligent design and/or spirituality has to be at odds with human scientific understanding. 

Maybe we are divided into two camps:

Those who believe Man has achieved the highest known level of intelligence and understanding in the Universe. 

Those who don’t.


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## stonetag (Apr 21, 2019)

Holy hell Jin! You are my college prof reincarnated. I had a feeling that guy would come back to haunt me...lol


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Maijah said:


> Your example of a random flowing stream has many variables. I'm sure if you picked one river a mathematical equation can be assigned and then things like rate of erosion can be established. However each river is different



Every situation has many variables. 
If I build two bicycles there are different variables. If two rocks roll down the same hill there are different variables. Math can be used to decipher and explain all the situations above.


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> IF, IF, IF!!!! Our physical world is created/designed.
> 
> My post isn’t an argument for chance vs design.
> 
> it’s an observation regarding HOW our physical existence MIGHT be designed if it were designed/programmed.



I get your if. It's the assumption that x is correct so if we can show y then z must be true. 
In my opinion what is happening here is on par with being amazed that the wrench fits the bolt.


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> The more we discover scientifically the more certain I am that there was an intelligent design.


Why? Seriously?
For nearly every impossibility in life, in the universe mankind has had a farfetched answer. Slowly we have "solved" many questions, none of those things that we know point to intelligent design. 
An example of intelligent design or a guiding hand if you will, (and also evolution through selective breeding) would be domesticated dogs and cats) what evidence do you have that suggests life, the universe  and everything was designed? 
(Please don't say "because math, I might actually blow a gasket)


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> Why? Seriously?
> For nearly every impossibility in life, in the universe mankind has had a farfetched answer. Slowly we have "solved" many questions, none of those things that we know point to intelligent design.
> An example of intelligent design or a guiding hand if you will, (and also evolution through selective breeding) would be domesticated dogs and cats) what evidence do you have that suggests life, the universe  and everything was designed?
> (Please don't say "because math, I might actually blow a gasket)



You have an opinion. 

I have an opinion. 

What you are debating is not what this thread is about. 

You have a hard set belief in the nature of reality. 

I do not. 

You think when when you die you will completely cease to exist as a sentient being. 

I do not. 

Neither of us can prove our opinions as fact. 

This thread is about exploring possibilities

I appreciate your responses!


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> I get your if. It's the assumption that x is correct so if we can show y then z must be true.
> In my opinion what is happening here is on par with being amazed that the wrench fits the bolt.



Every time I use a wrench I am amazed how it fits the bolt. Sorry life is so dull for you:32 (17):


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> You have an opinion.
> 
> I have an opinion.


Agreed 


Jin said:


> What you are debating is not what this thread is about.


What I am stating is that you are making a claim based on circular logic. I have no dog in the fight regardless the outcome. Circular logic drives me insane. You are starting with a claim of fact that is not actually a fact and using that "fact" to then come to a conclusion. The way it is stated alone makes any other outcome impossible. 



Jin said:


> You have a hard set belief in the nature of reality.
> 
> I do not.


Lol. My friend you are using circular logic to come to a fore drawn conclusion. Your beliefs seem to be very hard set.
I do not care what side of the ledger your beliefs are on, my only "concern" is the circular claim.



Jin said:


> You think when when you die you will completely cease to exist as a sentient being.
> 
> I do not.


Um, no thanks on stating my beliefs for me. I believe we do not know. I have seen no evidence of an afterlife, and am not going to randomly start believing in one as some sort of insurance policy. 
I do not know is my position. 


Jin said:


> Neither of us can prove our opinions as fact.
> 
> This thread is about exploring possibilities
> 
> I appreciate your responses!


Exploring possibilities is an enjoyable conversation. However I think people too often look at the end result as a constant. They then backtrack up what looks like a complex path of seemingly overly complex success and declare based on personal experience that for the end result to happen the path was "predestined" if you will. So many things are not apparent at the end result, so many failures not taken into account. 
You have to walk from beginning to end, not from end to beginning to get the entire picture.


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> Every time I use a wrench I am amazed how it fits the bolt. Sorry life is so dull for you:32 (17):



I get that you are pondering, I am not intending to sound accusatory. 
I am pointing out that the way you phrased what you are pondering is circular logic. It is a question that can only be answered one way due to the way it was posed, but the question you posed with the claims made could have many different answers. 
I told you I probably could not explain :32 (19):


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Thank you for your response.


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## Jin (Apr 21, 2019)

Long said:


> I get that you are pondering, I am not intending to sound accusatory.
> I am pointing out that the way you phrased what you are pondering is circular logic. It is a question that can only be answered one way due to the way it was posed, but the question you posed with the claims made could have many different answers.
> I told you I probably could not explain :32 (19):



Can you reword my initial thoughts in a more suitable manner please? I would like to learn how better to state my opinion.


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## Long (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin said:


> Can you reword my initial thoughts in a more suitable manner please? I would like to learn how better to state my opinion.



I smell sarcasm. I can not help you state your opinion "better" as it is your opinion. 
The statement below is not stated as an opinion.



Jin said:


> Science has theories.
> Mathematics has proofs.


This statement is comparing two things and claiming they are different, praying on the ignorance of the reader who may not understand that math is in fact used to validate scientific theory and that the definition scientific theory is not the same as the layman's use.
This presents all kinds of issues with the claim that follows. Not in the least you are trying to pit science and math as though they are at odds. 


Jin said:


> Therefore existence (if created or designed by a superior intelligence) is, at its most basic level, math based/coded.


You are just making a statement here to support your pre drawn conclusion, but in a way that attempts to look like facts support it.
You are assuming the ability to decipher indicates design. Anything and everything we have ever known can be explained mathematically. (Based/coded) the makeup of a rock, the ratios of sugar to water in iced tea. 
That on no way is evidence for intentional or intelligent design. 
Math=universal standards. Finding the standards and the fact they hold true is not somehow evidence that things are designed. 
It is evidence that there are universal standards. Gravity does x. Certain shapes form other shapes. 1x1 is 2. 

I could build a thing from random parts with no end goal. That thing would be a product of intelligent (I know right) design and would be chock full of patterns and be mathematically explainable. 

A bunch of rocks could roll down a hill after an earthquake. The path, and the rocks themselves would be chock full of patterns and the paths and wear would be mathematically explainable. 

Everything can be called math based and coded. That is because math is a series of observed standards. 

"We observed some standards that hold true no matter where you are, therefore somebody must have made that set of standards."

It does not follow. The statement goes in a circle. A means b is true. B shows that a is true. The statement only works in the vacuum of itself.


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## Jin (Apr 22, 2019)

This thread was about sharing ideas. Whacky or otherwise. You’ve turned it into a debate,
which quite frankly sucks.


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## Jin (Apr 22, 2019)

Let’s get back on track!

Here is a scientific, natural (non spiritual) look on how conscientiousness may be eternal:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Psychological_Basis_for_a_Natural_Afterlife

THE ABSTRACT 
Focusing solely on the near-death cognizance of the dying, rather than the material perspective of the living, reveals a new understanding of death. Its significance to psychology, philosophy, and religion is enormous because what emerges is a long overlooked phenomenon: a nonsupernatural, timelessly eternal consciousness, which can be a natural afterlife. Ironically, the validity of the theory of a natural eternal consciousness (NEC) is based on the material loss of consciousness with death—specifically, the permanent loss of time perception. The theory claims, and the article deduces from empirical knowledge, that by imperceptibly entering the timelessness before death, one’s final conscious moment, whatever the type, becomes by default—psychologically, from one’s perspective—a forever present moment. To help explain and validate the theory, the article presents a formal model of all of life’s moments and transitions between periods of time perception and those of timelessness within eternity. An open-minded reading should reveal that the NEC and natural afterlife do not threaten a faith in God or a heavenly afterlife


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## Jin (Apr 22, 2019)

^^^^basically we lose consciousness, specifically the ability to perceive time, right before we die. Effectively we die with our consciousness in a timeless/eternal state. There are dozens of scientific studies referenced. I haven’t read the whole paper yet because I’m on my phone. 

It’s neat idea and reminds me of someone entering a black hole but never actually being able to reach the event horizon because time slows down so much you’d never get there. 

From Wikipedia 

To a distant observer, clocks near a black hole would appear to tick more slowly than those further away from the black hole. Due to this effect, known as gravitational time dilation, an object falling into a black hole appears to slow as it approaches the event horizon, taking an infinite time to reach it.


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## ToolSteel (Apr 22, 2019)

Ants and bees


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## Jin (Apr 24, 2019)

OLD BLACK MEN MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU:

Neil Degrass Tyson’s mind blown:

Theoretical physicist says self correcting computer code is embedded in the String Theory (theory of everything/existence) equations. 

Matrix might not be far off. I am impressed with the images that the code produces. Very psychedelic. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4NkItgf0E


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## Jin (Apr 24, 2019)

Is a wave just a wave? Or is it the ocean? 

Am I just Jin? Or am I the Universe?
——————

I don’t know, but I do know that......

I control my own reality. 

This is morning I woke up with a headache, the puppy ran away from me and peed all over the floor, both kids were screaming. 

Circumstances dictated it was going to be a rough start/Shitty day. 

But I went outside, expressed my gratitude for the beauty that surrounds me, had a coffee and I decided to have a great day. 

Positivity is a choice. So is negativity. 

What will your reality be today?

—————


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## hulksmash (Apr 24, 2019)

Jin said:


> OLD BLACK MEN MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU:
> 
> Neil Degrass Tyson’s mind blown:
> 
> ...



I'll make your brain implode even more:

1. A correction: *There is no computer code in string theory.* You'll find *Shannon coding* in String Theory. Shannon code is a mathematical way to represent information.

The belief that computer code appears in string theory=same as a *belief that 1998 Ford truck wheels appear in orbital mechanics, since Ford wheels are circles, and circles relate to pi, and pi is used in orbital dynamics, too!* James Gates is the physicist.

2. *You don't control your reality.* You "chose" to have a good day because:

Every experience you've had after leaving the womb is your conditioning.
Your conditioned to think and act in a very specific way due to above.
Your "choice" to have a good day would not exist without the puppy.
You have a puppy because you're conditioned to think and act a specific way.
You woke up with a headache as a result of your conditioned thoughts and actions-different conditioning and you wouldn't be in the same bed.

No one has *100% control/choice* ever. I "chose" to type right now because me conditioning led me to this specific experience.

You all and me are like ants with cognitive skills. Our behavior and thoughts are a result of conditioning. *We forget that and believe we have "free will".*


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## hulksmash (Apr 24, 2019)

Oh, I forgot:

If anyone says or thinks, "Fine, I'll just cruise through life on auto-pilot since free will is an illusion"-

You're conditioned to think or say that. *Who you are is the result of your specific conditioning, which you got from every experience you've had since being born*.

Your personality traits, behavior, likes/dislikes, morals, opinions, thoughts; all of it is the product of conditioning.

Nice conundrum, huh?


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## Jin (Apr 29, 2019)

*If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?

maybe not such a silly question. 

*
Even in the case of the minerals, modern physics (forget psychedelics!) gives us reason to wonder if perhaps some form of consciousness might not figure in the construction of reality. Quantum mechanics holds that matter may not be as innocent of mind as the materialist would have us believe. For example, a subatomic particle can exist simultaneously in multiple locations, is pure possibility, until it is measured — that is, perceived by a mind. Only then and not a moment sooner does it drop into reality as we know it: acquire fixed coordinates in time and space. The implication here is that matter might not exists as such in the absence of a perceiving subject. Needless to say, this raises tricky questions for a materialist understanding of consciousness. The ground underfoot may be much less solid than we think.

From Michael Pollan’s new book, How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science of Psychedelics Tells Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence


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## Gadawg (Apr 29, 2019)

Jin said:


> *If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?
> 
> maybe not such a silly question.
> 
> ...




Gonna have to get that book. One of the best joe rogan episodes ever to me.  I just started "food of the gods" by terrence mckenna myself.


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## hulksmash (Apr 29, 2019)

Jin said:


> *If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?
> 
> maybe not such a silly question.
> 
> ...



Jin, *you are gonna HATE me*! I got a correction for you.

PLEASE KNOW I assume you want 100% truth in what you read/learn.

You brought up what is called the *Observer Effect*.

The problem? Define "observer"-in quantum mechanics the definition is different.

1. Observer=*anything that interacts with something!* The "observer" can be matter (like electrons) or something sentient (like an animal).

2. The human *IS NOT* the "observer" in the experiment. *The LIGHT DETECTOR is the "observer"*. The light's photons had to be polarized to detect what slit they went through.

3. Polarizing the photons so they could be "observed" made the photons act like particles. The experiment proved light behaves both as a particle and a wave.

4. The experiment showed "wave function collapse" and "superposition". Shrodinger's cat is both *dead and alive at the same time*. 

*"Observer" is defined differently in quantum mechanics, and "observation" is simply the interaction of one thing with another. Human perception has nothing to do with "observation" and the Double Slit Experiment.*

I hope you're not annoyed by my truth bringing, Jin


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## hulksmash (Apr 29, 2019)

Jin said:


> *If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a noise?
> 
> maybe not such a silly question.
> 
> ...



You DO still have a point backed by evidence.

1. We don't know what our consciousness is or know anything about it. You're correct in this.

2. "Reality" is produced by our brain and signals. You're right to say nothing may even exist. 

3. Evidence leans toward "reality" being a simulation. It's very plausible we live in a Matrix-like reality, where nothing has actual existence.


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## Jin (Apr 30, 2019)

hulksmash said:


> You DO still have a point backed by evidence.
> 
> 1. We don't know what our consciousness is or know anything about it. You're correct in this.
> 
> ...



Oh, SOMETHING exists. Maybe just not what we perceive.

And I can’t take credit for that idea!


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## Mythos (Apr 30, 2019)

Relativity is a blast to look in to. Time and space are one thing and it's totally bendy.. When it really sinks in, it's hard to see the world as such a concrete thing anymore.  I had always wondered if you could point to a certain direction in the sky and say the big bang came from that direction..you can't, and the reason is really mind blowing.


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## Jin (May 9, 2019)

Mythos said:


> Relativity is a blast to look in to. Time and space are one thing and it's totally bendy.. When it really sinks in, it's hard to see the world as such a concrete thing anymore.  I had always wondered if you could point to a certain direction in the sky and say the big bang came from that direction..you can't, and the reason is really mind blowing.




5 minutes on the nature of time. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=86RI1G1J2p8

 once you hit light speed time stops. Is light eternal?


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## Jin (May 9, 2019)

Jin vs. Stonetag

Intelligent design & science: mutually exclusive?

Susskind asks great questions. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0p-Sqo83GX0


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## BrotherJ (May 9, 2019)

Some cool questions raised in this video from an excellent science series if anyone's seen it.


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## ToolSteel (May 10, 2019)

Sounds like I need mushrooms.


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## Bro Bundy (May 10, 2019)

ToolSteel said:


> Sounds like I need mushrooms.


as i get older they become more fun...Ever try it?


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## The Tater (May 10, 2019)

I’ve been watching this thread for a bit and I have to get something off of my chest. We’ve all heard stories of people who came back from death or a near death experience talk about seeing and feeling a powerful force that is greater or too complicated to explain. I had a very close call but thanks to some well trained brothers, I lived. Slipping in and out of consciousness I saw something and heard things that I still cannot explain and I don’t think I will ever be able to. I believe there is a force out there, God, something that either controls things or knows the outcome of the choices we will make. I have no idea what IT is and I can’t even remember what I saw but I felt like I was in the presence of God or some powerful being. It is still indescribable.


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## Gadawg (May 10, 2019)

The Tater said:


> I’ve been watching this thread for a bit and I have to get something off of my chest. We’ve all heard stories of people who came back from death or a near death experience talk about seeing and feeling a powerful force that is greater or too complicated to explain. I had a very close call but thanks to some well trained brothers, I lived. Slipping in and out of consciousness I saw something and heard things that I still cannot explain and I don’t think I will ever be able to. I believe there is a force out there, God, something that either controls things or knows the outcome of the choices we will make. I have no idea what IT is and I can’t even remember what I saw but I felt like I was in the presence of God or some powerful being. It is still indescribable.



Read up on DMT and near death experiences.  It's the most powerful psychadelic drug ever known and it's produced in your own body and an unbelievable number of our plant friends.  It's even found in very high concentrations in grass clippings.  The people that know about this stuff believe it is produced in the highest concentrations in the pineal gland and that it floods our brains during the quickening and again during death.  

I think it explains the majority of near death experiences but IN NO WAY do I think that psychadelics are simply chemicals that affect our brains.  I believe these alkaloids, amines, tryptamines, etc etc tune us in to something much more powerful and much larger than ourselves.  Call that God if you must but I think it's bigger even than that.


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## Jin (May 10, 2019)

BrotherJ said:


> Some cool questions raised in this video from an excellent science series if anyone's seen it.



“We don’t passively perceive the world. We actively generate it”. 

Like I said before: you create your own reality. 




Excllent video. I am soooo buying a rubber hand.


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## Jin (Jun 12, 2019)

We don’t know much. And that should be a source of wonder. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=loBqzP3Yaj0


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