# Insulin questions



## Steeeve (Apr 4, 2022)

*context* powerlifter uninterested in aesthetics. Not particularly interested in using insulin to drive anabolic outcomes, more of a shuttle mechanism. Im 230 lbs. and am not pre diabetic and have no issue with glucose. I do have a blood meter. I did find and read Eric Smiths posts.

Ill try to keep it short and sweet. Im going to start injecting 600mg of injectable L-Carnatine pre workout intra muscularly using an insulin pin. I've seen plenty of recommendations to take this with insulin. 3 to 4 units of humalog is what I see advised here, for example.  




Few questions
1) Is a loading phase of two weeks actually necessary? I could see a few reasons why the man making and selling it would advise you need to do so (just like creatine manufacturers do), but I havent come across this recommendation elsewhere.
2) Is using the 3-4 units of insulin necessary?
3) Is the humalog hes advising the same thing as novalog? Standard medium/fast acting stuff my parents use for their type 2 diabeetus? Can buy at wal mart with no script?
4) Assuming I AM using the novalog at 4 units PWO, how many (ish) grams of simple carbs am I looking to consume to cover this? I can do gatorade, candy, or whatever...I just dont know how many grams Im actually looking at here. If eric is using 10 units and 100 carbs, I dont see why I cant use 40 grams for units..?


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

1) I don't think you should front load insulin if that's what you mean. 

2) It's not nessesary, but it has a synergistic effect, or it helps out. 

3) Pretty sure Novalog and Humalog are close enough to eachother, not too sure though. 

4) Yes, start off with 40ius of simple carbs. Get some protein in there. Should be good to go. Later like 1-1.5 hours later have a meal with lower-glycemic index carbs and some protein.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> 1) I don't think you should front load insulin if that's what you mean.
> 
> 2) It's not nessesary, but it has a synergistic effect, or it helps out.
> 
> ...


Have you ever used insulin? Based on what you wrote I'm guessing that you haven't. 

Telling someone to inject 40ius with simple carbs, with no reference as to how many IU per 10g of carbs is reckless advice.


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> Have you ever used insulin? Based on what you wrote I'm guessing that you haven't.
> 
> Telling someone to inject 40ius with simple carbs, with no reference as to how many IU per 10g of carbs is reckless advice.


I meant 40g carbs*** 

Not a dumbass. These are simple questions! Sorry for the mistake!


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

@Steeeve I didn't watch the videos, but here are some answers based on your questions.

1. I never got anything out of injectable L-carnitine personally, and I was using a lot. I personally wouldn't bother preloading it, it doesn't have an ester that needs to be cleaved off or anything like that.

2. I wouldn't advise anyone use insulin unless they are stacking it with GH, or if you are on an extremely heavy bulk with tons of carbs. If you are doing the latter then insulin can take stress off your pancreas and avoid leaving you with elevated blood glucose all day long.

The way you would use it is to figure out how many IU per 10g of carbs you need to bring your blood glucose down to something reasonable 2-3 hours post meal... For me that is a blood glucose measurement of anything between 80-120. Yes you will need a glucose meter for this.

3. They are effectively the same... there are some differences, but they are trivial IMO and don't make a difference in how you'd use it.

4. This is going to depend on your insulin sensitivity. Start with 1iu per 10g of carbs, measure blood glucose at the 1 hour, 2 hour, and 3 hour mark. Then adjust up/down as necessary based on the results of those readings.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> I meant 40g carbs***
> 
> Not a dumbass. These are simple questions! Sorry for the mistake!


There were other things you said that are odd. Have you ever actually used insulin? Also, have you ever actually used injectable L-carnitine?


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> @Steeeve I didn't watch the videos, but here are some answers based on your questions.
> 
> 1. I never got anything out of injectable L-carnitine personally, and I was using a lot. I personally wouldn't bother preloading it, it doesn't have an ester that needs to be cleaved off or anything like that.
> 
> ...


Quality post


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> There were other things you said that are odd. Have you ever actually used insulin? Also, have you ever actually used injectable L-carnitine?


Nope. What was odd? 

I like the way you call me out compared to anyone else.


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## RiR0 (Apr 13, 2022)

Following. Im still in the process of learning about insulin myself


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## RiR0 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> 1) I don't think you should front load insulin if that's what you mean.
> 
> 2) It's not nessesary, but it has a synergistic effect, or it helps out.
> 
> ...


Stfu! You do not need to comment on this or anything else. 
No one should listen to you about about anything.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> Nope. What was odd?
> 
> I like the way you call me out compared to anyone else.


There are literally only 2 of us in this thread. Also, in the last 2 threads you were the last person to respond.

Do you really think I'm calling you out, or do you think maybe I'm just reading the most current posts in the thread and responding to what I see? 

Food for thought.... Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but if your posts were not risky/dangerous then I wouldn't be saying anything to you at all.


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> There are literally only 2 of us in this thread. Also, in the last 2 threads you were the last person to respond.
> 
> Do you really think I'm calling you out, or do you think maybe I'm just reading the most current posts in the thread and responding to what I see?
> 
> Food for thought.... Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but if your posts were not risky/dangerous then I wouldn't be saying anything to you at all.


What was odd about my post. This way we all learn.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> What was odd about my post. This way we all learn.


What was odd is that you've never used insulin or L-carnitine, but still gave advice on it.

Like I said, the replies you gave make it clear you've never used either. If you want to learn, then read my post I directed to @Steeeve .


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

@Steeeve also, if you do choose to use insulin for whatever reason, be sure to always carry glucose tablets or something that is very high on the GI. Candy bar or a regular soda can also do in a pinch.

Sounds weird, but I used to actually look forward to accidentally getting my blood glucose too low. Then I could have about 10 peanut M&Ms to get it back where I needed in quick order.

Gotta look at things as a positive where you can. 😂


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> What was odd is that you've never used insulin or L-carnitine, but still gave advice on it.
> 
> Like I said, the replies you gave make it clear you've never used either. If you want to learn, then read my post I directed to @Steeeve .


Okay, fine

Other than my typo there wasn't anything wrong with my post?


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> Okay, fine
> 
> Other than my typo there wasn't anything wrong with my post?


I've lurked the forums long enough before creating my account to know better than to waste my time with you.

I'm going to just follow the direction of others on here, and @CJ as well. I'm also going to steer clear of @Send0, I can't believe he let this go on 🙄.


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> I've lurked the forums long enough before creating my account to know better than to waste my time with you.
> 
> I'm going to just follow the direction of others on here, and @CJ as well. I'm also going to steer clear of @Send0, I can't believe he let this go on 🙄.


So you have nothing constructive to say about my post? I said to take 40g of carbs and a meal afterwards of low-glycemic index carbs. That's standard. We literally said the same things for the other posts.

You're just as big of a troll from what I've read. I don't need to use insulin to parrot the standard protocol.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> So you have nothing constructive to say about my post? I said to take 40g of carbs and a meal afterwards of low-glycemic index carbs. That's standard. We literally said the same things for the other posts.
> 
> You're just as big of a troll from what I've read. I don't need to use insulin to parrot the standard protocol.


Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that.

Also, I have no obligation to go out of my way to educate you specifically. That is some sense of entitlement you have there pal.


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that.
> 
> Also, I have no obligation to go out of my way to educate you specifically. That is some sense of entitlement you have there pal.


Wait! I see what I did wrong @Intel.imperitive . I didn't address you in a way you are comfortable with like @RiR0. Let me correct my mistake now.

STFU! No one should ever listen to you.


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## Intel.imperitive (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> Sure buddy, keep telling yourself that.
> 
> Also, I have no obligation to go out of my way to educate you specifically. That is some sense of entitlement you have there pal.


Do it for the fucking forum mate. Don't call out my post if you have nothing to say about it. I corrected my typo.


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## silentlemon1011 (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> So you have nothing constructive to say about my post? I said to take 40g of carbs and a meal afterwards of low-glycemic index carbs. That's standard. We literally said the same things for the other posts.
> 
> You're just as big of a troll from what I've read. I don't need to use insulin to parrot the standard protocol.



Dont Insult parrots
A parrot would fuck you up.

When even Gymrst thinks you're a useless entitled troll, you got problems





GymRat97 said:


> Wait! I see what I did wrong @Intel.imperitive . I didn't address you in a way you are comfortable with like @RiR0. Let me correct my mistake now.
> 
> STFU! No one should ever listen to you.



I dont listen to people like Intel that couldnt stand up to a gust of wind.

@Intel.imperitive 
Shut the fuck up and let the thread continue without your ceaseless idiocy


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

silentlemon1011 said:


> Dont Insult parrots
> A parrot would fuck you up.
> 
> When even Gymrst thinks you're a useless entitled troll, you got problems
> ...


Btw, I'm not that other Gymrat. 

I got called out in the chat box yesterday hard, so I had to go lookup GymRat79.... and oh boy 🤣.


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## RiR0 (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> Btw, I'm not that other Gymrat.
> 
> I got called out in the chat box yesterday hard, so I had to go lookup GymRat79.... and oh boy 🤣.


🧐


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## CJ (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> So you have nothing constructive to say about my post? I said to take 40g of carbs and a meal afterwards of low-glycemic index carbs. That's standard. We literally said the same things for the other posts.
> 
> You're just as big of a troll from what I've read. I don't need to use insulin to parrot the standard protocol.


I don't think there's a standard, and I haven't used insulin, so the whole grain of salt thing...

I've heard from smart people that you base the amount of insulin used off of your carb requirement, and not the other way around. 

Basically said to eat your carbs, start off with a lower dose of insulin. Keep titrating the insulin up in subsequent feedings until the point where you start to go hypoglycemic, then you know your rough numbers. 

Was told that jamming insulin, then just pounding carbs to catch up to the insulin, was a surefire way to get fat. 

Again, no experience, just parroting information. 🦜


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## silentlemon1011 (Apr 13, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> Btw, I'm not that other Gymrat.
> 
> I got called out in the chat box yesterday hard, so I had to go lookup GymRat79.... and oh boy 🤣.



Yes
Yoire the real Gymrat
Not the fake precious gymrat "Invented persona"
Indeed.

Anyways, back on topic


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## GymRat97 (Apr 13, 2022)

CJ said:


> I don't think there's a standard, and I haven't used insulin, so the whole grain of salt thing...
> 
> I've heard from smart people that you base the amount of insulin used off of your carb requirement, and not the other way around.
> 
> ...


Despite no experience you are exactly right in the approach that should be used, and that pounding carbs/insulin will get you fat if you don't dial it in perfectly.


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## silentlemon1011 (Apr 13, 2022)

Steeeve said:


> *context* powerlifter uninterested in aesthetics. Not particularly interested in using insulin to drive anabolic outcomes, more of a shuttle mechanism. Im 230 lbs. and am not pre diabetic and have no issue with glucose. I do have a blood meter. I did find and read Eric Smiths posts.
> 
> Ill try to keep it short and sweet. Im going to start injecting 600mg of injectable L-Carnatine pre workout intra muscularly using an insulin pin. I've seen plenty of recommendations to take this with insulin. 3 to 4 units of humalog is what I see advised here, for example.
> 
> ...



A few things

Juat for those that dont know what you're SPECIFICALLY talking about
It's the use of insulin for LCarnitine "Shutting" to the muscles









						Insulin stimulates L-carnitine accumulation in human skeletal muscle - PubMed
					

Increasing skeletal muscle carnitine content may alleviate the decline in muscle fat oxidation seen during intense exercise. Studies to date, however, have failed to increase muscle carnitine content, in healthy humans, by dietary or intravenous L-carnitine administration. We hypothesized that...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





This is interesting stuff

First off, let me know how it goes

This is some shit I didnt even think of to be honest, so I cant contribute much here

Second
I personally like Novolog, very fast acting for a PWO
Stary at 10g Fast carbs per IU
Monitor BG for consistency 
(Monitor for a month and your reactions before you staty taking Slin)

Then Dial in your carb to Insulin ratio
@Send0 is 7g I believe?
I'm closer to around 8 or 9 Grams, still trying to dial in properly

Very interested to see the outcome and changes

Thanks bro


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## TODAY (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> Okay, fine
> 
> Other than my typo there wasn't anything wrong with my post?


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## TODAY (Apr 13, 2022)

Intel.imperitive said:


> Do it for the fucking forum mate. Don't call out my post if you have nothing to say about it. I corrected my typo.


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## silentlemon1011 (Apr 13, 2022)

That's never gonna get old


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## RiR0 (Apr 13, 2022)

silentlemon1011 said:


> That's never gonna get old


I just saved the pic so I can do it too. Everytime I see him post


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## silentlemon1011 (Apr 13, 2022)

RiR0 said:


> I just saved the pic so I can do it too. Everytime I see him post



lmao
I did it too
@TODAY has provided an excellent example/Whole new level
We all need to up our game as well


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## Send0 (Apr 13, 2022)

silentlemon1011 said:


> A few things
> 
> Juat for those that dont know what you're SPECIFICALLY talking about
> It's the use of insulin for LCarnitine "Shutting" to the muscles
> ...


Yep, for me it's about 1iu per 7g of carbs. Everyone is different, and need to dial themselves in. Both @CJ and @GymRat97 gave good instruction as to how to dial yourself in _(not that you need to know this... but for the OP)_


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## BRICKS (Apr 14, 2022)

This is experience and not parroting.  Humulog and Novolog are both short acting insulins, use either.  Onset time is about 15 minutes, peak at 1 hour, duration 4-5 hours.  4 ius is what I started with the first time.  I usually run 10 ius post workout if/when I run it.  Pre workout, well that's just a stupid idea and makes no fking sense if you know what insulin does.  Research that.  

As far as dietary coverage, 10 gms carb for every iu insulin is a good starting point, dial it down from there.  Use fast acting carbs.  Karbolyn is excellent.  Fast acting carbs, not sugar.  Vitargo is another, but it's kind of a bitch to mix up.  I'll do 50 gms Karbolyn, 50 gms whey protein taken at same time as injection.  Then in an hour another  50 gms carbs jn the form of white rice (that's 200 gms cooked weight) and usually 12-18 oz lean meat.  I personally do 18 oz cod.  This is my protocol.

Some important things to keep in mind:

1) you take your insulin where your food is at and ready.  Not at the gym and drive home.  Not at home and drive to eat.  Anything less than this is stupid.

2)  learn the signs of hypoglycemia, although if/when it happens you'll know right away.  

3)  you can get fat quick on insulin.  If you're keeping track of your intake include those calories in your daily intake.  If you don't care, well, get fat.

4) see number 1

5)  do not switch insulin types.  If your using humulog or novolog, they're interchangeable.  Other insulins are not.  They have different onset, peak, and duration times, you will fk yourself up.

6) do not miscalculate your injection volume.  It's ius, not ml.  1 ml of humalog is 100 ius.  Use an insulin syringe (TB syringe), not a regular syringe.

Insulin is not the dangerous boogey man it's made out to be, BUT, you have to be disciplined in your use and diet.


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## Steeeve (Apr 14, 2022)

GymRat97 said:


> @Steeeve I didn't watch the videos, but here are some answers based on your questions.
> 
> 1. I never got anything out of injectable L-carnitine personally, and I was using a lot. I personally wouldn't bother preloading it, it doesn't have an ester that needs to be cleaved off or anything like that.
> 
> ...


Given I rarely receive responses to nuanced questions like this I posted on other boards and reached out to David Herrera and Joe Sullivan for clarification on some of this. Im getting a ton of out of the 800mg IM pre workout, thankfully. David advised the insulin isnt necessary when we pivoted to 16 week exposure time. Did get on growth at 2 iU, but at this point dont see any need to drive the loading phase with insulin. 

Itd make more sense if I was trying to leverage the carnatine in an acute setting, but similar to creatine, if youre going to use it long term you can avoid the loading phase if you dont mind a few extra days to reach peak serum concentration is how it was explained to me.


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## Steeeve (Apr 14, 2022)

BRICKS said:


> This is experience and not parroting.  Humulog and Novolog are both short acting insulins, use either.  Onset time is about 15 minutes, peak at 1 hour, duration 4-5 hours.  4 ius is what I started with the first time.  I usually run 10 ius post workout if/when I run it.  Pre workout, well that's just a stupid idea and makes no fking sense if you know what insulin does.  Research that.
> 
> As far as dietary coverage, 10 gms carb for every iu insulin is a good starting point, dial it down from there.  Use fast acting carbs.  Karbolyn is excellent.  Fast acting carbs, not sugar.  Vitargo is another, but it's kind of a bitch to mix up.  I'll do 50 gms Karbolyn, 50 gms whey protein taken at same time as injection.  Then in an hour another  50 gms carbs jn the form of white rice (that's 200 gms cooked weight) and usually 12-18 oz lean meat.  I personally do 18 oz cod.  This is my protocol.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response. You 100% validated what I gathered from other sources. Insulin isnt necessary for this expiriment, but Im still 40 or 50 lbs under my ideal weight class. Itll come around here eventually


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