# Coming off. An essential part of long term growth.



## Canadian muscle (Jun 3, 2014)

Please feel free to share thoughts experience and knowledge on this subject.

I am starting to become a strong believer that we all need to take time off the gear to attain real growth once we go back on. As a competitor I have noticed most of us in the sport abuse the drugs. We take waay too much for way too long. It is essential for the body to have time off the hormones including a proper pct for growth. You may lose size but the important thing is to keep as much as possible during the pct period. When you go back on, the gear works much better. I stay on for long periods at a time but make it a point to come
Off once a year for at least 3 months with proper pct including Hcg.

Many people are firm believers in staying on.

However wouldn't the body just get used to all this excess hormone?


----------



## TheLupinator (Jun 3, 2014)

From a health standpoint, I see where your heads at and (to me) it only seems logical that one shouldn't stay on exogenous hormones indefinitely - even at normal physiological levels (TRT dose), I still think there is benefit to restoring HPTA function. I've always thought the more natural way is always healthier, although this principle does not always hold true.

E.g. Is swallowing a bunch of nolva and clomid for 4-6wks healthier than dropping down to 100mg test/week??? Who really knows



From a results standpoint, this is a really good debate bc many guys tout that pros never come off END OF STORY. I'd like to know how true that is. And if in fact they do cycle off, if it is to maximize the results of their next blast.


----------



## Oldebull (Jun 3, 2014)

Sorry I don't have much to add. I just wanted to say, great question, great topic, and one that doesn't come up often. I'll be staying tuned.


----------



## NbleSavage (Jun 3, 2014)

There's also the "Rotate your Compounds" theory that Widehips was discussing a few weeks back in which you maintain relatively small doses (always using a Test base) and alt those compounds every six weeks. This approach is supposedly advocated by pros as a means of keeping overall gear usage as low as possible and not developing tolerance to any given compound.


----------



## nastyNate (Jun 3, 2014)

Across the board I'm a believer in coming off cycle doses for periods of time to give the physiology a rest. Let the liver cool off, give lipids a chance to at least sort of normalize and also desaturate the receptors. As far as coming off all exogenous steroids that depends more on age and how long one has been running. In the case of a younger person who has not cycled much its reasonable to try and recover the hpta understanding this is not going to happen quickly if the real suppressive agents with long circulating periods have been used. Most know how long nandrolone will suppress the hpta especially if run for 16 or 20 weeks. It slowly peeks in serum concentration and will continue to exercise suppressive effects for lengthy periods of time after it is discontinued. Expecting to recover in 8 weeks after running nandrolone for 20 weeks is not reasonable. A testosterone and dianabol cycle is a diifferent story with regards to potential for faster recovery in someone who is young. 

My feeling is that anyone who decides to cycle needs to first accept the possibility that they will never recover a fully functioning hpta. This is even more true for the 30+ age group. Those who do attempt to recover in their 30's after some good years of cycling also have to accept that they will sit with some shitty test levels for a long time before that spark kicks off again, if it ever does. Its tough to sit for any length of time with double digit test levels. 

with the exception of the sertoli cells, the body physiology will not know the difference between trt and healthy physiology function of the hpta for the most part. I'm more concerned about the effects of trashed testosterone levels than I am about long term trt effects. There is good literature looking at the increased morbidity associated with compromised circulating testosterone in men not to mention the quality of life issues. 

I'll always have at least 150 or 200/week of test on board and am ok with that but I'm also closer to 40 than 30 and am satisfied with current offspring number; not that more isn't out of the question. Man ive seen too many cases of guys with non existant fsh and lh who have been cycling for long periods of time at high doses with normal sperm counts to be super concerned about that. My wife got pregnant with our last child while I was on 600 of tren 800 of test and had been on either tren or test for the majority of 15 months prior to that. There was some hcg in the mix which certainly helped.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Jun 3, 2014)

Healthwise, maybe its a good idea. Your bloodwork would indicate that and it's probably the only way to tell. Sometimes you just feel like you need to come off. I know I do even just with my trt doses.  

But this is borderline along the idea of your receptors needing to clear. Which has been totally disproved.


----------



## Luscious Lei (Jun 3, 2014)

nastyNate said:


> My feeling is that anyone who decides to cycle needs to first accept the possibility that they will never recover a fully functioning hpta. This is even more true for the 30+ age group. Those who do attempt to recover in their 30's after some good years of cycling also have to accept that they will sit with some shitty test levels for a long time before that spark kicks off again, if it ever does. Its tough to sit for any length of time with double digit test levels.



I agree with everything in your post except these few sentences.

In my opinion, a user who doesn't plan to B&C (whatever the reason) should always target a full recovery post cycle. This "you'll never get you pre-cycle natty test levels back" is often an excuse for B&Cing instead of cycling, "I won't get my test levels back so let's just stay on year round".

Also, it is NOT true at all...If you stay away from 19-nors and if your genetics are good you CAN recover totally. I did 3 cycles, all well into my 30s, and a few months back my test came back at 747, and I'm 38.


----------



## nastyNate (Jun 3, 2014)

^^^^ yea i agree if someone isn't planning a multi year blast and cruist try and recover between cycles especially if your staying away from the 19-nors. Even then I'm a fan of people understanding that when your ****ing with your endocrine system at this level the risks must be understood. Doesn't mean you go into it and throw in the towel straight away but you know what may happen. Exogenous aas are also not the only things that can impact the hpta. Opiate addiction is a big one that shuts down a lot of young males who then get put on ssri's but "depression" symptoms. Oil field workers with exposure to high levels of aromatic hyrocarbons represent another cohort where this is seen. 

The majority of people will recover after a test/dbol cycle for example and pretty easily. If someone runs 20 weeks of deca at 600/week and expects to recover in 8 weeks.......well that  is probably not going to happen. 747 is great though man. I wish I popped back to that but after 3 years of being on pretty much solid well....meh probably not going to happen


----------



## Badkid 93 (Jun 20, 2014)

Nate are you saying they wont recover in 8 weeks after a 20 week cycle even with a proper pct? hcg first 3 weeks then clomid nolva for 4-6 weeks?


----------



## NbleSavage (Jun 20, 2014)

Turn down for what?!?

(I keed  )


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jun 20, 2014)

i need a break ..i was on since nov and i just felt like my body needs a break..my breathing was not normal and i just felt off...every juicer needs to feel his body if something doesnt feel right get off..


----------



## lockjaw (Jun 22, 2014)

Oldebull said:


> Sorry I don't have much to add. I just wanted to say, great question, great topic, and one that doesn't come up often. I'll be staying tuned.



I agree  same here


----------



## FreeBirdSam (Jun 22, 2014)

If I remember correctly the receptor theory was debunked long ago... I'm sure that our fellow doc has the study to back that, but I'll just use Ronnie coleman as my proof.  If the receptors eventually became saturated/down regulated or whatever you want to call it, how do you suppose pros like ronnie continue to grow year after year?  I highly doubt there is any pct for pros, but I have heard stories of a few weeks off for some.  This can be argued to death but in the end, if you're not competing, there really is no need to run the same protocols that the pros run.  - staying on year round may be beneficial for other reasons, but the doses shouldn't ever have to be as high as a pro's.


----------



## Canadian muscle (Jun 28, 2014)

I think full recovery can be achieved unless your old.

I'm young so i wouldn't know. But for most old timers I know trt to be more tolerable than pct.


----------



## hulksmash (Jul 3, 2014)

Haven't been off in years and haven't felt better.

However, I will go 2-3 weeks without pinning occasionally since I run long ester to give my wallet a break.


----------



## hulksmash (Jul 3, 2014)

Canadian muscle said:


> I think full recovery can be achieved unless your old.
> 
> I'm young so i wouldn't know. But for most old timers I know trt to be more tolerable than pct.



I could never play with an anecdotal theory like that since recovery could take 6 months or so.

It would be hell to waste waiting 6 months for endogenous production and realize it's never going to happen.


----------



## fognozzle (Jul 9, 2014)

At 47, my lvl was 490 six months after my first cycle last spring. Dr did not suggest trt... Now I'm 48 and on week 16 of my second cycle (800 TE/ 400 Tren). After 20 weeks is up I will drop back to 200T/wk indefinitely. Not having any more kids so HPTA is not a concern. As long as my body tells me everything is cool, and I read my body well, I will cruise from here on out with one solid cycle every Spring. At 6'4, 220 and an easy 10% bf I am happy with where I am and put most guys in their 30's to shame at the pool. I will stay ON from here on out to some extent. Great topic and refreshing to hear something different than time on = time off...


----------



## grizzldsealpoacher (Jul 9, 2014)

A question to add also to sub .. Great thread! What about the Low T user on TRT is there a need for any recovery there? Saying a user That runs TRT b/c the Nattie Level fully recovered just over 200 to 300  due to what ever reason opiate abuse/improper aas use as a teen etc.  Would there be any benefit to pct and time off there if the best your body could hope to recover would be 300 or less?


----------

