# Gyno Reversal-The Struggle



## Millerwelder

Hi, new member here. If this thread is in the wrong place please move it, sorry. I've seen a very good thread on here in the steroid section pertaining to puberital gyno reversal, so I'm trying to get some peoples ideas on some of my questions about it and SERM dosing. My condition is pubertal gyno and I've been experimenting with trying to get rid of it for just over a year now. Many people say its impossible without surgery and I've seen alot of personal statements of actual successes. 

I myself, have seen a reduction from letrozole twice just starting after the 2-3 week period each time. Dosing was ceased, either from bad sides or running out of the product. Most bottles lasted about a month. Most of my time spent has been taking what I believe now were bunk products. I have a hard time telling as I've never experianced sides from anything besides letro just this summer which only caused fatigue and loss of strength. I have yet to do a cycle of steroids so my knowledge and experiance to drug use is limited. I have done a "cycle" of LGD-4033 (ligandrol)(a SARM) which was just about as eventful as my SERM experiences. So do you guys follow any indication of whether to stop taking a believed to be bunk product? Also what are some research chem companies that people trust? I used Southern Sarms for a while which I had success with their letro both times but nothing with raloxifene. I'm now on stuff from RUI products as I decided to try a different brand. I heard good reviews of RUI at the time, now I'm hear bad stuff. 

Results for me are currently mixed. One day Im thinking the lumps are getting smaller and the next I dont even know. Currently I'm on raloxifene and letro. Stopped running the raloxifene for 4-5 days recently, no feeling of gyno reduction. added it back in, gained perceived notion that something was happening more. Think Its me just getting a ton a placebo from being desperate at this. 

So if anybody wants to share ideas, thank you. Also if you have gyno surgery stories to share I'm also interested in learning more about that process still. Again if this thread is in the wrong place or not a presentable topic, sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks


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## Millerwelder

I should add that I've been on ralox and letro for the past 2 months with little progress (RUI products). No sides, maybe close to the results from previous letro if it's not placebo. Been gaining again since school started so upper chest has been hiding the gyno more.


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## DieYoungStrong

You wouldn't get gyno with a Lincoln welder lol. 

Anyways, pubertal gyno might just have to be corrected with surgery.


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## curtisvill

As DYS said, surgery may be the best cure.


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## stonetag

Like Dys said, Lincoln might be your best bet. Seriously man, get with an online pharm such as ADC for your letro, letro is a strong drug for combating gyno, and for you to see no condition improvement makes me question the product in current use.


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## Sledge

I can personally vouch for peptide pros letro. I get definite results from it, and in fact have crashed my estro with it. Weather or not it will help your issue, I couldn't say.


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## Freedom

I couldn't find the link but there was a study comparing tamox vs. ralox in treating pubertal gyno. They both were effective, however, ralox reduced the gyno more than tamox. I think it was taken at 60mg for 9 months. I think if you do a google search you will find it. Make sure you're careful with the letro. I've never done it, but many people say it will crash your E2 and that will make you miserable for a few weeks until the E2 comes back. Makes sure you do enough research before just jumping on some meds. Good luck! Let us know what happens.


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## gymrat827

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/9543-Kill-my-Gyno-cycle?highlight=kill+gyno

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/18457-my-gyno-and-raloxifene?highlight=kill+gyno


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## ToolSteel

I was always under the impression that once it's "set" surgery is your only option. I have very slight pubertal gyno on one side, so I keep a very close eye on my e2. 
I may have to take a look into this ralox.


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## Sledge

I had some gyno on my left side for about 6 years that was about the size of a quarter. I started treating it with research letro about 3 months ago, and it has gona down in size considerably. To remove it completely I am sure I would need surgery, but its not noticeable right now (can only feel it) so I am ok with it. The dosing of research letro is not too accurate so start low. I crashed my estrogen hard, and was miserable for about ten days. Depressed, sore, tired, no libido.


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## DocDePanda187123

ToolSteel said:


> I was always under the impression that once it's "set" surgery is your only option. I have very slight pubertal gyno on one side, so I keep a very close eye on my e2.
> I may have to take a look into this ralox.



Raloxifene and tamoxifen have both been shown successful at treating even pubertal gyno in up to ~80% of the cases I believe.


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## ToolSteel

Can ralox crash you like letro?


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## DocDePanda187123

ToolSteel said:


> Can ralox crash you like letro?



Raloxifene is a SERM not an AI.


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## thqmas

Just scroll down to "16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia". This is some info I gathered over the years.

Written by Austinite

*Estrogen, Prolactin, Progesterone Management + Gynecomastia Prevention & Reversal
Introduction
*
One of the topics always in question is how to manage estrogen and prolactin levels on cycle. This thread should serve as an informational base to educate users further. This is probably one of the more important topics as the lack of attention to these categories can result in some serious complications. Before we get into managing E2 and prolactin, it's really important that you understand exactly what they are, their purpose and how they become elevated. Once you have a clear understanding of their function, we will move onto managing them in a safe manner. Let's get cranking...

Estrogen in Men: Explanation and Purpose

Also referred to as Oestrogens, is a group of hormones found in various areas in the body. The main purpose of estrogen in men is to aid in the maturing your sperm, and to help regulate your libido. It's far more abundant in females and aids them in developing female characteristics. Some of these characteristics can develop in males should estrogen be found in excess. But there's more purpose to estrogen that we'll be discussing.

Estrogen is biosynthesized. Meaning, it is formed by another source in the body. It's a product of testosterone conversion. Testosterone is converted into estrogen with the help of an enzyme called the "Aromatase". The amount of aromatase enzymes in a body matters. Not everyone has the same amount. But it's mostly found in fat cells. The more fat that you carry, the more you estrogen you will convert. One of many reasons not to cycle anabolic steroids when you're overweight. Make sense now? 

You probably heard different references to it. Such as E2 or estradiol. Estrogen, as a whole, is comprised of several sex hormones. These are as follows:

1. Estrone (E1)
2. Estradiol (E2)
3. Estriol (E3)

You notice Estradiol or E2 is in bold above. This is because E2 is what matter in a male. E2 is 10 times more potent than E1, and 100 times more potent than E3. This is why males get an Estradiol test, or better yet; a Sensitive Estradiol assay. We will discuss the importance of these tests later in this article. 

Your estrogen levels should be in range to maintain a healthy libido and avoid side effects. This is one of the most important things to factor into cycle management. Levels that are too low can cause problems for you. Levels that are too high can cause serious complications. So we need a balance here. Let's have a look at the issues you'll experience with the highs and lows of estrogen levels...

Low Estrogen Side Effects:

- Osteoporosis (weakened bones) ; (long-term low levels)
- Poor sex drive
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Skin quality diminishes
- Depression
- Poor sense of wellbeing & poor quality of life

High Estrogen Side Effects:

- Gynecomastia 
- Anxiety & panic attacks
- Depression
- Erectile dysfunction
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- Loss of balance/instability/dizziness
- Respiratory related concerns
- Irritability 
- Low libido
- Insomnia
- Prostate related issues
- Crying like a little girl and being emotional all the time

So you see, neither high nor low are healthy. And since we've already established the fact that the more body fat you carry, the more aromatase enzymes you have; you now understand why it's best to cycle when body fat is low. As you look at these side effects, you can use this list of concerns to self-diagnose the possibility of "out of range" estrogen levels. Hopefully that would trigger the need to have your blood levels checked. But keep reading because we're going to discuss blood work later in this article. 

How To Control Estrogen

First of all, while I listed the side effects above, which also serve as symptoms; I really don't have a "lazy man's guide" for controlling estrogen levels. Blood work is really the only way to accurately manage your E2 levels. Otherwise, we would simply observe symptoms and self diagnosis becomes a guessing game. A dangerous one at that. But before we get into blood testing, let's talk about methods used to control estrogen while you're on a steroid cycle with aromatizable compounds. 

Aromatase Inhibitors (AI)

There are several inhibitors available for you to use. The main purpose for all of these drugs is to maintain a healthy level of estrogen. While they work in different ways, they all focus on lowering or maintaining estrogen levels. Since we just learned that the Aromatase enzyme is what synthesized estrogen, the name "Aromatase Inhibitor" suddenly makes sense, right? AI's do exactly as their title suggests; Inhibits the aromatase activity in your body. Now we need to find out what inhibitors are available and how they work...

There are several inhibitors available on the market today. Not all of them are made equal. 

Types of Aromatase Inhibitors:

1. Selective
2. Non Selective

For our purpose, we only need to be using Selective compounds because Non Selective compounds such as Cytadren andTeslac work differently and are generally pretty weak. So to save time, we will not be discussing Non Selective inhibitors since they are not relevant to our purpose. 

Types of Selective Inhibitors:

1. Reversible inhibition
2. Irreversible inhibition (aka suicide inhibitor)

Reversible inhibition means that the aromatase enzymes' activity is blocked, but the enzyme remains alive and intact. Irreversible, or suicide inhibitors kill the enzyme. It no longer exists. Please remember, just because the enzyme is dead, does not mean you will not develop more enzymes. Contrary; you continue to develop aromatase enzymes. By either killing or blocking aromatase enzymes, the conversion of testosterone to estrogen is blocked. And if dosed properly, eventually your levels drop to a reasonable and healthy range. 

Available and Popular Reversible AI's:

- Anastrozole (Arimidex )
- Letrozole (femara)
- Formestane (Lentaron)
- Vorozole (Revizor)

Available irreversible AI's (Suicide inhibitors):

- Exemestane (Aromasin )

So there you have it. These are generally your options for lowering your Estrogen levels and maintaining a healthy state in the E2 department. You could also use some over-the-counter products. Some have been proven to work well. Depending on the individual, as we all react differently to these drugs, you may need an extra boost with an over the counter product. Pill forms are hard to split up properly sometimes and the addition of OTC drugs can help with the balance without going overboard. 

Natural Over The Counter AI's:

- DIM (Diindolylmethane) - I use this with TRT, very effective. 
- Resveratrol (pretty weak)
- Chrysin (better than Resveratrol, but still weak)
- Zinc (Decent, but an effective dose is also not healthy)

In my experience, it's always been proven (through blood work) that DIM is the most effective natural OTC product available today. Coupled with an AI, it can do some good for you. My TRT protocol is now managed so well, that I don't even use an AI, I use DIM solely. Works perfect for me. 

Inhibitor Dosing & Information

I'll only discuss the common ones that are available through our site sponsors. If you need additional info on any others please let me know and I will do my best to deliver more information. So for the purpose of accessibility and this article, we will discuss dosing with Arimidex, letrozole , Aromasin and DIM.

Dosing below are STARTING DOSES based on a basic 500 mg Testosterone Cycle. Once you get blood work mid-cycle, you should be able to confirm if that dose is working, or if it needs adjusting. Never ever reply on my word or anyone elses for that matter. Always look at blood work to confirm, but this has generally proven effective for most. So I'm merely sharing my personal experiences with you over the years. 

Please remember: Everyone is different and doses may vary, only blood work can identify proper dosage.

Informative Data On Mentioned Inhibitors:

*** Anastrozole (Arimidex)

- Half Life: 50 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Other Day. (for a basic 500mg Testosterone cycle)
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, joint discomfort, stomach discomfort, diarrhea, elevated cholesterol levels.
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA in the presence of Arimidex.
- Note: Drug interactions updated 08/16/2013. No adverse interaction between Arimidex & Nolvadex. Thanks to member:100% for this study.


*** Exemestane (Aromasin)

- Half Life: 24 hours
- Recommended dose: 25 mg Every Day. 
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, fatigue, insomnia, headache, depression, elevated bilirubin, elevated liver enzymes, alopecia, back pain, chest pain, constipation, lymphopenia .
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA in the presence of Aromasin.


*** Letrozole (Femara)

- Half Life: 48 hours
- Recommended dose: 50 mcg (micrograms) daily. Do not abuse this drug. Typical milligram doses are nonsense and likelyunderdosed gear.
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, fatigue, insomnia, headache, depression, cough, flu-like-symptoms, elevated bilirubin, vision disturbance, elevated chromium, loss of appetite, stomach discomfort. letro is one of the most powerful AI's out there. Be cautious especially with this one. It's power could be good but also could be bad as it can easily crash your E2 fairly quickly, rendering you useless. Blood work blood work!!
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of both Nolvadex and DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA/Nolvadex in the presence of letrozole.


*** Diindolylmethane (DIM)

- Half Life: 7 hours
- Recommended dose: 150 mg Twice Daily (for a total of 300 mg daily). 
- Common side effects: At the doses above, there really aren't any side effects. But some are possible such as headaches and nausea.
- Drug interactions: No known drug interactions todate.


Prolactin in Men: Explanation and Purpose

First thing... there is no such thing as "prolactin-induced" gynecomastia. I've heard this one too many times and later in this segment you will understand why. Now, prolactin is another sex hormone and is secreted by the pituitary gland in your brain. Although it's found in both males and females, it's main purpose is for milk production for females. The fact is, males have no use for prolactin that we know of today. Why, God, why?? Anyway, while low levels are not harmful, high levels certainly are. So let's take a look at the concerns with higher than normal prolactin levels in men...

Effects of High Prolactin Levels in Men:

- Adverse Testicular Interference
- Lowers natural testosterone
- Lower sperm count (to infertility levels)
- long term elevation can cause erectile dysfunction (sometimes short term)
- Low Libido
- Breast tenderness
- Male lactation
- Low ejaculate volume

19-Nortestosterone steroid such as nandrolone and Trenbolone can cause prolactin levels to become elevated MAINLY with the presence of excess estrogen. They are NOT a direct cause of high prolactin. While using prolactin inhibiting drugs will resolve issues, your first line of defense is controlling estrogen, as elevated estrogen can boost the effect of prolactin increase. It's not uncommon to prevent prolactin increase with the use of an AI. But the doses of 19-Nor steroids today, may prove that is somewhat ineffective. Leading to the necessity of having a secondary (and direct) compound to combat the effects. 

The way it works is entirely complicated and I couldn't even think of a way to put it in laymans terms. But in short, 19-Nor interaction with the estrogen receptors will boost prolactin secretion. This is why it's important to control estrogen first, and prolactin second. Also why I recommend that you have a secondary combat drug "on hand" and in some cases, used on cycle. You might wonder why I say "on hand", since I earlier said that low prolactin is not harmful. Well, these drugs have some fairly heavy side effects and if not used properly can really affect your progress on cycle. So it's OK to wait until needed for the sake of sanity. But I want to emphasize this again... if you have high prolactin and/or lactating, it's a near 100% confirmation that you failed to control your estrogen levels. 

How To Control Prolactin

To control prolactin, or elevated prolactin, we use drugs that activate dopamine. Dopamine is a chemical launched by cells in the brain with the purpose of signaling nerve cells. So these drugs we're looking at are dopamine agonists. There are several things that affect prolactin but dopamine is the dominant one that makes the overall difference. 

Dopamine works with the pituitary. They're friends, you see. But sometimes the pituitary gets a little excited and out of control, so Dopamine pays a visit to the pituitary and binds to the Dopamine receptors and slows prolactin production down to a reasonable level. This is all done with internal communication. What a nice friend to have. Make sense, folks? What a spectacular system we have. Even more reason to respect your body. 

Now that we know how prolactin elevates and how to fix the problem, let's have a look at common drugs used for prolactin control. I'm getting kind of bored with this article so I'll keep this short since I still have to cover progesterone. 

Common "Anti-Prolactin" (dopamine agonist) drugs available:

- Pramipexole (Mirapex)
- Cabergoline (Dostinex)
- Bromocriptine (Parlodel)
- Pergolide (Permax)

Informative Data On Mentioned Inhibitors:

*** Pramipexole (Mirapex)

- Half Life: 8 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Night. Take right before you fall asleep. If after 3 days you can handle the dose just fine, increase to 0.5 mg. Then again to 0.75 and finally to 1 mg. Rarely more than 1 mg is needed. 
- Common side effects: Nausea, dizziness, vomiting, insomnia, constipation, confusion, visual disturbance, hallucinations, headaches, frequent urination, congestion, achiness.
- Drug interactions: Do not use alongside other dopamine agonists. Avoid antihistamines altogether as the combination will have adverse effects on your central nervous system.

*** Cabergoline(Dostinex)

- Half Life: 65 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Third Day. If after 4 doses you feel good, increase to 0.5mg every third day. 
- Common side effects: Same as Prami for the most part, but can also cause anxiety and compulsive behavior.
- Drug interactions: Avoid anorexiants (appetite suppressors) as the combo can cause severe levels of serotonin. also avoid other dopamine agonists. Avoid Codeine because the combination renders the drug ineffective and lowers blood pressure too much. 


Progesterone in Men: Explanation and Purpose

Progesterone is another steroid hormone in our bodies. Most people think this is only useful to women, however, unlike prolactin, there are actual benefits to healthy levels of progesterone. It "counters" some of the adverse effects stemming from estrogen. For those of us off cycle, it's also a precursor for testosterone. Also cortisone via the adrenal glands. It's produced from cholesterol where it's first pregnenolone and then progesterone. In fact, many men are prescribed progesterone-increasing drugs to elevate levels into the upper range for a more healthy state. 

If it's so great, why don't we cause it to produce even more? Well, out of range levels can cause complications. This hormone is beneficial but only in healthy ranges. Beyond that, it becomes an enemy. So our goal is to keep progesterone in range so that it remains a "friendly" hormone so to speak. Now let's have a quick look at the concerns we will face, as men, in the presence of elevated progesterone levels...

Side Effects Of High Progesterone Levels:

- Erectile Dysfunction
- Depression
- Lethargy
- Fatigue
- Lower Libido
- Hair Loss
- Gynecomastia
- Muscle Atrophy

You see how serious high levels are? We need to maintain a healthy level of progesterone for many reasons as outlined above. But I want to cover gynecomastia for a minute because I want you to understand the cause. 

Progesterone increases because too many receptors are activated by progestins. Progestins are compounds that act on these receptors, such as Trenbolone and nandrolone or any 19-nor steroid. This is what causes progesterone to increase and why you see the increase when these steroids are introduced. You never need protection with other steroids because others are not progestins. Make sense?

Can you guess what I'm going to say next? That's right. It's worse in the presence of excess estrogen! Especially in the breasts as it acts to promote breast tissue alongside estrogen by increasing 1GF-1 in the breast. Also, progesterone directly stimulates estrogenic activity at the mammary tissues. So here we have a semi-direct influence. High progesterone increases estrogenic activity and results in gynecomastia. But once again I want to reiterate, your first line of defense is controlling estrogen!

Treating elevated progesterone levels can be done via Selective Progesterone Receptor Modulators (SPRM). For example, Asoprisnil; also known as J867. SPRM's are quite aggressive and should only be used in extreme cases and under a doctor's supervision. So I do not recommend them because they could easily cause your levels to plummet, causing other issues. So instead, I recommend that you use an AI to simply put an end to progesterone stimulating estrogenic activity. So even though this has a direct effect, the effect would lesson in the presence of less estrogen. 

I highly recommend Aromasin as the AI of choice when running 19-Nor steroids. 

Myth: Nolvadex may not be used with 19-Nor. FALSE! Nolva/Tamox is a mixed estrogen receptor agonist/antagonist. Some tissue (not all), upregulation of progesterone receptor can happen; for example in the mucous membrane because it's estro-sensitive. But our concern is the breast. And Nolva blocks the estrogen receptor. Progesterone receptor is then synthesized. Blocked estrogen receptor = down regulated progesterone receptor. 

Gynecomastia: Explanation and how to treat it

This is simply the enlargement of breast tissue in males. Your body is basically adopting female characteristics. As mentioned earlier, this is caused by excess estrogen and can be aggravated directly by excess progesterone. There are several proven methods to reverse gynecomastia. Some are more effective than others. I'll mention the most common ones. 

Gynecomastia reversing drugs (ordered by effectiveness):

1. Raloxifene
2. Tamoxifen 
3. Lasofoxifene

Do you notice a common denominator? They're all Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERM). But why have I not listed the other popular SERMs such as Clomiphene (clomid) and Toremifene? Well, although the similarities are abundant, these other SERMs do more stimulation at the pituitary (brain), where the SERMs I mentioned are much stronger and effective at the breast tissue. This is why they are to be used in gynecomastia reduction/reversing. I'll discuss dosing for the compounds I've personally used. 

Raloxifene: Dose Raloxifene at 60 mg, up to 80mg daily. Do not go up and down with the dose. Start with 60 mg for 6 weeks. If you do not notice much difference, increase to 80 mg and stay at 80 mg until gynecomastia is reversed. 

Tamoxifen: Dose at 40 mg every day for 1 week. After that, drop dose to 20 mg and use that every day until gynecomastia is reversed. 

About Reversing With letrozole: Yes, it can be done. However, I do not recommend this method. Letrozole is a fairly harsh compound and the protocols I've seen out there are wild. Multiple milligrams of this compound time after time is a surefire way to crush your E2 levels. Then you're left miserable and hating life. Do not use this compound. However, if you are not convinced, please be super cautious with it. The milgram + suggestions are mind boggling to me, I don't care how many people say it works for them. I promise you, most of these folks are not monitoring blood work and this entire deal is a guessing game. 

First of all, if you insist on Letro, I would run letro at NO MORE than 100 mcg daily. Yes, that's MICROgrams. Letro took me from 47 ng/dL to 2 ng/dL in 10 days. That's how powerful and difficult to manage this compound is. 

Final note regarding gynecomastia reversal... This process takes time. Too many things factor into this so giving you an estimate on how long it takes makes zero sense. Everyone is different and every gynecomastia case is different. Main factors are the level of estrogen present, body fat percentage and the age of your gynecomastia. All that would render an estimate of time to reverse it useless. You must however, have patients. This is not a quick process at all. Not even close. In some cases it can take up to 9 months, heck even longer. But... My experience was that I noticed a big difference around week 6, and was able to completely reverse it before the end of the 3rd month. 

Blood Work For E2 and Gynecomastia Prevention

Obviously you've noted by now that controlling estrogen is the main key to any negative issues that surround gynecomastia. Since this is your first line of defense, you'll need to have your E2 checked mid cycle to verify your AI doses are actually working and keeping you in range. Even with progestins, your chances of gynecomastia are near zero with estrogen levels in range. But even the slightest elevation can aggravate the issue in the presence of other compounds. 

Now, lots of folks seem to order a simple Estradiol panel. This is OK but it's really not accurate. Especially in the presence of high conversion from Testosterone to Estrogen. Women have very high estrogen levels and a simple Estradiol test will suffice for them. Men however, are very sensitive to estrogen related issues and require a more accurate result. That would be a Sensitive or Ultrasensitive E2 assay. Your Estradiol result is not as accurate. So while you might think you're in range, you may in fact be above range. Slightly above range is not that big of a deal for a lot of folks, but some folks are super sensitive and are "Gyno Prone", so if you're not super experienced, get a sensitive panel.


*16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia*

Gynecomastia = Gyno

Most people think the only way to combat gyno is to use Nolvadex or Clomid. Considering the undesirable side-effects of these drugs, I generally don’t prefer these as the first line of defense. I have expressed my concerns about SERM’s in my article – Clomid & Nolvadex – The Dark Side.

In this article I summarize alternative methods for combating the occurrence of gyno. The advice given in this article is the result of over 10 years experience in counseling individuals with AAS induced gyno.

If you have gyno as a result of an endocrine disorder, I advise consulting your doctor before making changes to your prescribed medical regimen.

You Do Not Have Gyno!

During mammary tissue growth (the onset of gyno), you may notice the following symptoms -

•	Puffy or swollen nipples
•	Overly sensitive nipples
•	Itchiness around the nipples
Editorial note: I promise -- that is the last time I will ever say nipples.

Now, just because you may have these symptoms does not mean you HAVE GYNO. It simply means that you HAVE GYNO SYMPTOMS. Remember, it is normal to have a small flat pea sized lump under the nipple. This is NOT gyno.

Now, if you allow these above symptoms to progress for several weeks then you may develop gyno. So if you are experiencing any of the above symptoms then you are smart to take action before it’s too late – But please stop emailing me saying you “have gyno” after 3 days on a cycle – this is physiologically impossible.

The good news is that even if you do have a slight case of gyno that you developed from a cycle, it’s probably 100% reversible. Read on…

Nipples.

Gyno Hysteria

No level of gyno is “permanent”. Any level of gyno can be reversed by dietary, supplemental and/or hormonal intervention. Mammary tissue (gyno) can be catabolized like any other tissue in the body. It’s just a matter of creating the right physiological environment within your body. Therefore, as far as I’m concerned, all gyno is temporary or semi-permanent at worse.

Here are the basic levels of gyno -

Level 1 – A dime sized glandular lump – which can emerge as soon as 2-3 weeks after “gyno symptoms” appear. This type of gyno can transform into a more serious level 2 gyno if left untreated for more than 4-6 weeks. In most cases, this initial level 1 gyno disappears once the hormonal environment improves, which is generally 2-3 weeks after the inflicting steroids clear the system.

Level 2 – A quarter sized glandular lump. This type of gyno does not completely disappear on its own, but may gradually shrink to “Level 1” size after discontinuing the inflicting steroids. Completely reversing level 2 gyno requires aggressive dietary and supplemental intervention in conjunction with prescription grade drugs.

Generally, the levels of gyno can be referred to in the following way –

level 1 = temporary

level 2 = semi-permanent

Be warned, if gyno is allowed to grow large enough, the cost of surgery may be more cost efficient than trying to battle the gyno through drug and lifestyle changes – which could otherwise take months or years of intervention.

Following the 16 points below will help you prevent and reverse level 1 & 2 gyno - 

*The 16 Points
*
Consider all the following points. Remember, there are many factors that can contribute to gyno and performing just a handful of the points below may be the key to avoiding gyno all together.

1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)
Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.
Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

4. Trenbolone, TREN, Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar, Winstrol, Masteron, Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

Vitex at 460mg/day
Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)

8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-****load-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex, letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.


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## thqmas

And more specific for you running letro:

*Running letro to reverse gyno:
*
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into:

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg letro
Day 3: 1.0mg letro
Day 4: 1.5mg letro
Day 5: 2.0mg letro
Day 6: 2.5mg letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg letro
Day 2: 1.0mg letro
Day 3: 1.5mg letro
Day 4: 2.0mg letro
Day 5: 2.5mg letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg letro
Day 2: 1.0mg letro
Day 3: 1.5mg letro
Day 4: 2.0mg letro
Day 5: 2.5mg letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg

***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.


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## DocDePanda187123

You should quote and reference Austinite's name if you're going to copy and paste his work....


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## thqmas

I have it in a .doc file... have no idea who is the original writer of this.

1. Who should be credited for it?
2. I can not edit my posts, so if a admin can edit it.
3. If you are implying I posted it trying to credit myself for writing it... well, I didn't.
4. Is it wrong to share information? If it is not appropriate to share others work than I will not.


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## DocDePanda187123

thqmas said:


> I have it in a .doc file... have no idea who is the original writer of this.
> 
> 1. Who should be credited for it?
> 2. I can not edit my posts, so if a admin can edit it.
> 3. If you are implying I posted it trying to credit myself for writing it... well, I didn't.
> 4. Is it wrong to share information? If it is not appropriate to share others work than I will not.



1) A friend of mine by the name of Austinite wrote it and should be credited. 

2) I will edit the post

3) I was not, merely stating to credit work that is someone else's

4) it is and it's encouraged. Just reference the author or link where you found it.


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## thqmas

After I had a Gyno-Scare, I gathered allot of info from the net. 

As I am usually in my office, and it is not appropriate (or smart) to bookmark some (most) of the pages I visit, I gathered the info into a word document. I have so much Gyno info in that document it's scary.

Of course, what I had was no gyno. lol

Thanks for editing my post doc.


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## DocDePanda187123

thqmas said:


> After I had a Gyno-Scare, I gathered allot of info from the net.
> 
> As I am usually in my office, and it is not appropriate (or smart) to bookmark some (most) of the pages I visit, I gathered the info into a word document. I have so much Gyno info in that document it's scary.
> 
> Of course, what I had was no gyno. lol
> 
> Thanks for editing my post doc.



No problem sir.


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## Joliver

I agree with doc...big time. 

Good luck with the boobs.


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## Millerwelder

Hey thanks guys. Didnt think this would get that much response. Lots of information. 

So I just found out the other day, researching this stuff that my health insurance might actually cover gyno surgery. Had no idea. Just assumed not. Going home from school this weekend to try to see my doctor, ask about the surgery and maybe get a confirmation from the insurance.

Yea the letro experiances I hear are way more critical than mine have ever been. I want to say my joints are starting to hurt now, similair to another time I was on letro but its just my shoulders and hips. Think its just from really getting into lifting heavy again.


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## DocDePanda187123

Insurance typically will only cover it if it's causing you functional or physical impairment among other criteria that needs to be met. You may need to take an acting class or two but if the doctor asks, give some made up examples of how it's functionally or physically impairing you.


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## Millerwelder

Hey guys, finally starting to get some stuff figured out the past couple weeks. Went to see the doctor 2 weeks ago and asked him to do another physical on me. Told him I've been concerned about my hormone levels which I wanted to have checked and also wanted to ask him some questions about gyno. Went real smooth, only second time ever talking to this guy but he's big on the nutrition and fitness side of things. Looked at my gyno, said it was noticable. Asked him about surgery and insurance coverage, told me he doubts they'll cover it but said to get in contact with them and ask. I showed him a document for Blue Cross Blue Sheild North Carolina that confirmed surgery coverage, which he read thoroughly, then told me to go get an ultrasound to confirm it's glandular and call them.

So as of yesterday, after getting jerked around on the phone a few times over multiple days trying to get help, I got an appointment to consult with a plastic surgeon at the local hospital and a sort of confirmation that it will be covered by my insurance 90%. Hoping this pans out. Gonna be a while till the 1st appointment. Meant to wait list for a sooner one, I'll have to call back.

Also (a little more important) in the works is an appointment to see an endocrinologist. Blood test came back and not that I have low testosterone like the doctor thought but I have low thyroid levels. Apparently, they are pretty ****ed according to the reaction of the 2 nurses I had to speak with had over the phone. One told me to make sure I see a doctor right away if anything gets worse. Not sure exactly what that meant. 
Anyway heres the test results. I went and picked up the paperwork to have the details of all of the tests but didnt realize they only gave me results for the areas with abnormal numbers. I need to go back and try to get it all as I need to look at other things like estroidal. 

TSH .045ulU/ml (normal range .350-5.500)
and heres the kicker
T4 -6.4ug/dl (normal range 4.5-12)

Also what was interesting was my testoserone was "abnormally" high according to them too.
Testosterone ~1300 ng/dl (normal range 300-1200)
Free Testosterone ~30pg/ml (normal range 8.7-25)

Sounds pretty freaking good to me. Other endocrinology place tried to send me to their other busier doctor to intervene when they found out my testoserone was out of range.


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## gymrat827

have you tried to use nolva or ralox for 90 days + yet....??


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## Millerwelder

I've ran raloxifene for at least 2 months a couple of times. Usually letro was being ran at some point also. I stopped taking both a month ago before I saw the doctor. Noticed a slight estrogen rebound pretty quickly. Now running both again since I have leftover bottles from RUI and the lumps are definatley larger now. Not like it's major differences but I can tell the drugs do work somewhat and there is some rebound after stopping them abruptly, noticed on multiple occasions. I also ordered ralox from peptidepros to give that a shot. Gyno is getting me down again and being a distraction, didnt care as much few weeks ago. It's gonna be another month till I still talk to the plastic surgeon. Still not very optimistic. Seeing the endocrinologist finally next week. Hope the thyroid levels really help bring my gains up. Havnt been able to gain any weight since I lost a bunch this summer.


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## gymrat827

Millerwelder said:


> I've ran raloxifene for at least 2 months a couple of times. Usually letro was being ran at some point also. I stopped taking both a month ago before I saw the doctor. Noticed a slight estrogen rebound pretty quickly. Now running both again since I have leftover bottles from RUI and the lumps are definatley larger now. Not like it's major differences but I can tell the drugs do work somewhat and there is some rebound after stopping them abruptly, noticed on multiple occasions. I also ordered ralox from peptidepros to give that a shot. Gyno is getting me down again and being a distraction, didnt care as much few weeks ago. It's gonna be another month till I still talk to the plastic surgeon. Still not very optimistic. Seeing the endocrinologist finally next week. Hope the thyroid levels really help bring my gains up. Havnt been able to gain any weight since I lost a bunch this summer.




dude dont fuk with rc's on ralox, make sure you get real stuff.  rx


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## Millerwelder

gymrat827 said:


> dude dont fuk with rc's on ralox, make sure you get real stuff.  rx



Actually I've been meaning to note at one time I had a months supply of name brand raloxifene (Evista) and at two seperate times had the generic brand (Ralista). Didn't see any noticeable results from either. Both were only each taken a month at at time. I should have seen best results from the name brand but dont know why not. Name brand shit was expensive.


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## gymrat827

Idk how many RC companies you have tried but I've stayed RX for as much as my wallet allows and it's always done me well.  

I've taken ralox for 150 days plus, so I wanted the best stuff I could get my hands on


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## slim&fit

I've been prone to gyno (right side only) it always seems to go away. . . Well shrink so much that it's not noticeable.  I'm pining twice a week Wednesday and Saturday 250mg test E and 150mg deca and d-bol 40mg per day split into two doses. My right nip is not good, to say the least.  I've never taking arimidex and tamoxifen at the same time because I have read it can hinder the strength of one or the other, is this true? I'm hitting up 40mg of tamoxifen split in two doses and arimidex. .5mg eod. Will this lower it over time or should I go letro while on cycle and kiss ****ing goodbye till I'm done. Any info will help.


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## ToolSteel

Drop the dbol. 
Do bloodwork to check your e2. Anything else is a guessing game.


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## Straight30weight

Weird, this says last post was 2-11-2016, yet it's in my unread list and won't clear?


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## Jin

Straight30weight said:


> Weird, this says last post was 2-11-2016, yet it's in my unread list and won't clear?



Not a glitch. Just so happens to be getting a lot of recent hits on google.


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## ATLRigger

ToolSteel said:


> I was always under the impression that once it's "set" surgery is your only option. I have very slight pubertal gyno on one side, so I keep a very close eye on my e2.
> I may have to take a look into this ralox.


Not necessarily.
https://youtu.be/hPeskggyEhc


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## Adrenolin

ATLRigger said:


> Not necessarily.
> https://youtu.be/hPeskggyEhc



Nice bump.


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## Adrenolin

Adrenolin said:


> Nice bump.


Something weird is going on here, cause I didn't make that last post "Nice bump." I was busy reading the latest dragonball super....

Is that some kind of SEO fuckery reposting my post several weeks later to bump a 'hot' frequently viewed thread?


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## Send0

Adrenolin said:


> Something weird is going on here, cause I didn't make that last post "Nice bump." I was busy reading the latest dragonball super....
> 
> Is that some kind of SEO fuckery reposting my post several weeks later to bump a 'hot' frequently viewed thread?


Just had to reply to give you a head nod of approval for reading manga!

I knew I liked you for some reason beyond this board, I just couldn't put my finger on it until now 😂.


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