# Does taking a BCAA make a difference?



## Beefcake (Sep 2, 2016)

I'm currently taking creatine and a guy at my gym said to take a BCAA to help with your workouts.  Does taking a BCAA make that much of a difference when working out or during recovery or is it just a waste of money?  Opinions?


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## vukasinami (Sep 2, 2016)

No if you are fasted yes


Anyways look at the protein nutrition facts you will find bcaa


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 2, 2016)

Are you getting in enough protein? Yes? Then garbage.


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## ToolSteel (Sep 2, 2016)

As stupid as I think bcaa supps are, scivation xtend bcaa drinks are freaking delicious lol. The single best tasting supp I've ever had bar none.


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## NbleSavage (Sep 2, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> As stupid as I think bcaa supps are, scivation xtend bcaa drinks are freaking delicious lol. The single best tasting supp I've ever had bar none.



They are like liquid crack...blended with unicorn blood...and maple syrup...


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## wallyd (Sep 2, 2016)

I use them during my workouts with Creatine. If you use citruline malate or other pre workout that opens up your veins why not pump as much as possible into the muscle? They are more readily available for use by the muscles so why not pump the muscle full of what it wants? Just my opinion, I have no studies to back this up.


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## ron1204 (Sep 2, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> As stupid as I think bcaa supps are, scivation xtend bcaa drinks are freaking delicious lol. The single best tasting supp I've ever had bar none.



only reason i drink them is to help me drink more than a gallon of water a day. I hate drinking water. These help so much with the flavor.


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## BiologicalChemist (Sep 2, 2016)

Sure why won't...they are already loaded In your foods and whey protein shakes but u can take BCAA intra-workout, especially for longer ones I don't see it doing any harm..all up to you. If you're on the sauce everything you're putting in your body should be used better.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 2, 2016)

wallyd said:


> I use them during my workouts with Creatine. If you use citruline malate or other pre workout that opens up your veins why not pump as much as possible into the muscle? They are more readily available for use by the muscles so why not pump the muscle full of what it wants? Just my opinion, I have no studies to back this up.



The problem with this is that vasodilation doesn't increase nutrient metabolism, oxidation, or storage. Also, if you're getting enough protein from whole foods and whey supplements, you're already getting a ton of BCAAs. At that point the BCAAs will simply be converted to glucose and used for energy.


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## Seeker (Sep 2, 2016)

Pumping yourself with sodium and other minerals during your workouts will give yo a much better experience.


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## MrRippedZilla (Sep 2, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Are you getting in enough protein? Yes? Then garbage.



How you can handle these weekly BCAA threads across the forums is beyond me 

"Placebo is a hell of a drug" - Supplement industry


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 2, 2016)

No...........


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## wallyd (Sep 3, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> The problem with this is that vasodilation doesn't increase nutrient metabolism, oxidation, or storage. Also, if you're getting enough protein from whole foods and whey supplements, you're already getting a ton of BCAAs. At that point the BCAAs will simply be converted to glucose and used for energy.



Like I said it's just my opinion. Do you have any studies you can share to back up your claims? I admit I don't & it is just MY opinion.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 3, 2016)

wallyd said:


> Like I said it's just my opinion. Do you have any studies you can share to back up your claims? I admit I don't & it is just MY opinion.



Please don't think I'm attacking you personally but for an opinion to be worth it's weight, it must be grounded in some sort of objective evidence or facts. You've admitted yours isn't, or if it is, you haven't researched it to know one way or the other. You made the claim that it is beneficial and that vasodilation specifically upregulates nutrient transport so the burden of proof is on you. 

I will tell you though that on average, whole protein sources are typically about 20% BCAA. So if you're getting 200g of whole protein from food and protein supplements, you're already getting 40g of BCAA. Furthermore, in almost every study that found when it to BCAA supplementation, they only found this when protein intake was low. In studies where protein intake was sufficient the benefit was nil. There might be some immune system benefit to them but that doesn't build muscle and there are cheaper more effective ways to boost one's immune system. Finally, BCAAs lack the ESSENTIAL amino acids so why buy a BCAA supplement when you can buy a BCAA-plus supplement with whey? It's cheaper as well.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 3, 2016)

MrRippedZilla said:


> How you can handle these weekly BCAA threads across the forums is beyond me
> 
> "Placebo is a hell of a drug" - Supplement industry



The same way you answer the insulin and carbophbic threads


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## John Ziegler (Sep 3, 2016)

I take them once in awhile with food to get some extra protein without the extra calories of a protein drink.


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## DreamChaser (Sep 3, 2016)

No...,........


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## Fsuphisig (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't see any benefit, although a shit ton of glutamine seems to help my digestion and immune health


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## wallyd (Sep 4, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Please don't think I'm attacking you personally but for an opinion to be worth it's weight, it must be grounded in some sort of objective evidence or facts. You've admitted yours isn't, or if it is, you haven't researched it to know one way or the other. You made the claim that it is beneficial and that vasodilation specifically upregulates nutrient transport so the burden of proof is on you.
> 
> I will tell you though that on average, whole protein sources are typically about 20% BCAA. So if you're getting 200g of whole protein from food and protein supplements, you're already getting 40g of BCAA. Furthermore, in almost every study that found when it to BCAA supplementation, they only found this when protein intake was low. In studies where protein intake was sufficient the benefit was nil. There might be some immune system benefit to them but that doesn't build muscle and there are cheaper more effective ways to boost one's immune system. Finally, BCAAs lack the ESSENTIAL amino acids so why buy a BCAA supplement when you can buy a BCAA-plus supplement with whey? It's cheaper as well.



I fully admit that my use of BCAA is based on my opinion. You on the other hand seem to be speaking matter of factory so I was hoping you could post some links proving your statement. Either way I haven't researched it & for the little bit of money it cost I'll probably keep using them BUT you do have me curious and I will be looking into it for future purchases.


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## ToolSteel (Sep 4, 2016)

Doc, wally;

You're both trying to be nice. I see both sides

Wally: Doc knows his shit. If he says something, he's studied it. 

Doc: you can't expect him to know you know your shit right off the bat lol. A link wouldn't kill ya. We all like learning.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 4, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Doc, wally;
> 
> You're both trying to be nice. I see both sides
> 
> ...



I didn't expect him to know I researched the topic nor do I expect anyone to take what I say as Gospel. I was hoping the Socratic method would excite him into wanting to research it for himself. 

J Physiol. 2012 Jun 1;590(11):2751-65. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.228833. Epub 2012 Mar 25.
Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with leucine or essential amino acids: effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in men.
Churchward-Venne TA1, Burd NA, Mitchell CJ, West DW, Philp A, Marcotte GR, Baker SK, Baar K, Phillips SM.
Author information
Abstract
Leucine is a nutrient regulator of muscle protein synthesis by activating mTOR and possibly other proteins in this pathway. The purpose of this study was to examine the role of leucine in the regulation of human myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS). Twenty-four males completed an acute bout of unilateral resistance exercise prior to consuming either: a dose (25 g) of whey protein (WHEY); 6.25 g whey protein with total leucine equivalent to WHEY (LEU); or 6.25 g whey protein with total essential amino acids (EAAs) equivalent to WHEY for all EAAs except leucine (EAA-LEU). Measures of MPS, signalling through mTOR, and amino acid transporter (AAT) mRNA abundance were made while fasted (FAST), and following feeding under rested (FED) and post-exercise (EX-FED) conditions. Leucinaemia was equivalent between WHEY and LEU and elevated compared to EAA-LEU (P=0.001). MPS was increased above FAST at 1–3 h post-exercise in both FED (P <0.001) and EX-FED (P <0.001) conditions with no treatment effect.At 3–5 h, only WHEY remained significantly elevated above FAST in EX-FED(WHEY 184% vs. LEU 55% and EAA-LEU 35%; P =0.036). AAT mRNA abundance was increased above FAST after feeding and exercise with no effect of leucinaemia. In summary, a low dose of whey protein supplemented with leucine or all other essential amino acids was as effective as a complete protein (WHEY) in stimulating postprandial MPS; however only WHEY was able to sustain increased rates of MPS post-exercise and may therefore be most suited to increase exercise-induced muscle protein accretion.


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 4, 2016)

I wouldn't be looking to peer reviewed studies to understand why bcaa supplementation in a meat eater is pointless. I would suggest instead an anatomy and physiology textbook.  Read up on how the body produces energy from different substrates and how protein is used to build and repair tissues.  From there it's almost common sense to see that more isn't better. If you eat adequate protein and then toss bcaa in what does the body do with excess protein since it doesn't store it for later use?


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## wallyd (Sep 4, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I didn't expect him to know I researched the topic nor do I expect anyone to take what I say as Gospel. I was hoping the Socratic method would excite him into wanting to research it for himself.
> 
> J Physiol. 2012 Jun 1;590(11):2751-65. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.228833. Epub 2012 Mar 25.
> Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with leucine or essential amino acids: effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in men.
> ...



I have been looking at some studies. One that I did find was people using a vegan diet. It really benefitted them. I'm still looking though!!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 4, 2016)

wallyd said:


> I have been looking at some studies. One that I did find was people using a vegan diet. It really benefitted them. I'm still looking though!!



I'm happy to hear you are researching this!!!!

Vegan diets typically are lower in overall protein intake so when reading these studies pay careful attention to that


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 4, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> I wouldn't be looking to peer reviewed studies to understand why bcaa supplementation in a meat eater is pointless. I would suggest instead an anatomy and physiology textbook.  Read up on how the body produces energy from different substrates and how protein is used to build and repair tissues.  From there it's almost common sense to see that more isn't better. If you eat adequate protein and then toss bcaa in what does the body do with excess protein since it doesn't store it for later use?



Golf clap 

10char


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## wallyd (Sep 4, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I'm happy to hear you are researching this!!!!
> 
> Vegan diets typically are lower in overall protein intake so when reading these studies pay careful attention to that



And that's why I specified it was vegan. The same guys that are going to knock taking BCAA's are also the ones taking 50 grams of whey at one time eventhough there are numerous studies that state anything over 25-30 the body just waste because it can't assimilate that much at one time. Just food for thought. You can usually find a study to back anything if you look hard enough so sometimes trial & error is best.


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## automatondan (Sep 4, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I didn't expect him to know I researched the topic nor do I expect anyone to take what I say as Gospel. I was hoping the Socratic method would excite him into wanting to research it for himself.
> 
> J Physiol. 2012 Jun 1;590(11):2751-65. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.228833. Epub 2012 Mar 25.
> Supplementation of a suboptimal protein dose with leucine or essential amino acids: effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis at rest and following resistance exercise in men.
> ...



The _Gospel of Physiology_ presented by Doc...  Sorry Doc, I just highly respect your knowledge.... Though I highly recommend we *all* do the research ourselves... Otherwise, how will we ever know and decepher truth. I hope you weren't annoyed/offended by my comment the other day.


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## ToolSteel (Sep 4, 2016)

wallyd said:


> And that's why I specified it was vegan. The same guys that are going to knock taking BCAA's are also the ones taking 50 grams of whey at one time eventhough there are numerous studies that state anything over 25-30 the body just waste because it can't assimilate that much at one time. Just food for thought. You can usually find a study to back anything if you look hard enough so sometimes trial & error is best.



Are you a vegan


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 4, 2016)

automatonDan said:


> The _Gospel of Physiology_ presented by Doc...  Sorry Doc, I just highly respect your knowledge.... Though I highly recommend we *all* do the research ourselves... Otherwise, how will we ever know and decepher truth. I hope you weren't annoyed/offended by my comment the other day.



Doc doesn't have emotions


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## wallyd (Sep 4, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Are you a vegan



Ah no. That's why I said I was still looking & I also commented that I stated it was based on a vegan diet because I'm aware that makes a difference.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 4, 2016)

wallyd said:


> And that's why I specified it was vegan. The same guys that are going to knock taking BCAA's are also the ones taking 50 grams of whey at one time eventhough there are numerous studies that state anything over 25-30 the body just waste because it can't assimilate that much at one time. Just food for thought. You can usually find a study to back anything if you look hard enough so sometimes trial & error is best.



Incorrect. The body can digest much more than 25-30g of protein in a sitting. I suggest reading up on a digestive hormone called CCK and the ileal tract. Protein digestion is around 95%. 

As explained before, people knock BCAAs bc if your diet already has sufficient protein from whole foods and/or whey, you're already getting a ton of BCAAs so why spend money on an incomplete protein? Do you even realize why isoleucine and valine are included in BCAA supps? Bc taking in the more important one, leucine, on its own lowers serum levels of the other two. So you're paying extra money to add 2 amino acids that aren't needed in a BCAA supp just so the one important one doesn't drain levels of the other two. 

Furthermore, do you honestly believe protein digestion is constant regardless of the demographic? You don't think a trained individual assimilates protein at different rates than a sedentary person? 

If you think you can find a study to say anythimg you want you domt know how to interpret studies. The problem with trail and error is you can't isolate variables


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Incorrect. The body can digest much more than 25-30g of protein in a sitting. I suggest reading up on a digestive hormone called CCK and the ileal tract. Protein digestion is around 95%.
> 
> As explained before, people knock BCAAs bc if your diet already has sufficient protein from whole foods and/or whey, you're already getting a ton of BCAAs so why spend money on an incomplete protein? Do you even realize why isoleucine and valine are included in BCAA supps? Bc taking in the more important one, leucine, on its own lowers serum levels of the other two. So you're paying extra money to add 2 amino acids that aren't needed in a BCAA supp just so the one important one doesn't drain levels of the other two.
> 
> ...



Well you're obviously much more intelligent than I am plus you have "doc" in your name & a helluva following here. I guess we will just agree to disagree. I will still research on my own but I'll keep to myself to avoid the stones being thrown to question my intelligence and my ability to use the inter web. I won't be drinking any kool aid while here. ;-)
 I'll add I don't think just because someone weight trains that will allow them to use twice as much protein as someone who doesn't lift without wasting any.


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

First off, “meal” is the key word, one that I omitted in my original statement. Eating 50 grams of straight protein – and protein alone, whether it’s whey protein or 99% fat-free lean sirloin – is probably going to have a different effect than eating a mixed meal which contains 50-some odd grams of protein in addition to fat and digestible, fermentable, and insoluble carbohydrates. In other words, protein is rarely eaten alone. It’s eaten atop salads, alongside veggies, with starches, and it often comes imbued with animal fat (as meat). It’s eaten as a meal.

Digestion takes a long time, and it’s not a segmented procession of different meals through the gastrointestinal tract. Food isn’t separated into “meals” in your stomach. It’s just all food, all mashed together. If you still have breakfast in your stomach when your lunch enters the picture, lunch and breakfast will meet and mingle. Stomach acid breaks the food down into a big semifluid mass of partially digested food components, water, digestive enzymes, and hydrochloric acid – all referred to as chyme.  When the chyme is “ready,” it’s pushed through the duodenum (where nutrient extraction begins) and into the intestines.

Once the protein part of the chyme has been broken down by enzymes into amino acids, amino acid absorption by the intestines can begin. Amino acid transporters  grab amino acids and transport them through the cells lining the intestinal wall and from there into the bloodstream to be delivered to other parts of the body. But because the pool of amino acid transporters is limited, amino acids are typically absorbed by the small intestine at a rate of 5-10 grams per hour. This would suggest, at first glance, that the original “30 grams of protein per sitting” figure is close to correct. If you can only absorb, say, 7 grams of protein per hour, and the bolus of digested protein and other foods takes 4 to 5 hours to wind its way through the intestine, you’re gonna absorb maybe 28-35 grams. Right?

Not exactly. It turns out that our digestive process is fairly fine-tuned and regulated by the composition of whatever’s being digested. The presence of protein in chyme actually causes the secretion of CCK, a hormone that slows down the intestinal contractions that move food along, thus giving the protein more time to be transported by amino acid transporters. So, while it’s technically true that we aren’t absorbing 30 grams (let alone more) of protein all at once, it will eventually be absorbed.

Clearly, a fair amount is directed to normal tissue growth and repair. If it’s much more than that, a few possibilities enter the picture. Some will be directed towards a short term storage option referred to as the “labile protein reserve.” In this case, skeletal muscle tissue will take up some of the excess amino acids and simply store then for possible near future use (like within a day or so or for emergencies). Beyond that, your body will want to oxidize excess amino acids directly for fuel or convert them to glucose in the liver via gluconeogenesis. It will convert the nitrogen from the amino acids into ammonia and you will excrete that in your urine. If levels get too high in the bloodstream, your pH will shift (more acidic) and calcium will be called upon to balance pH out again. As we have seen with some people going full Primal, larger intakes of protein can offset lowered carb intake by generating significant rises in glucose through gluconeogenesis. Indeed, there are a lot of options the body has when you eat a high protein meal.

I still wouldn’t “stuff” myself on protein. If you have to force feed that lean chicken breast, perhaps your body’s trying to tell you something. Upon digestion, excess carbs and fat can be limitlessly and easily absorbed and assimilated (as body fat or glycogen) or burned off, but excess protein still requires extra work. Protein digestion produces toxic metabolites that we can usually get rid of, even on higher protein intakes, but there’s clearly a limit. Our bodies finding protein to be extremely filling? Our intestines actually slowing down the digestive process when protein is present? This is just how our bodies absorb protein at their own pace. They take their sweet time, but they get it all.

Okay, so we do absorb most of the protein we eat, whether it’s a 30-gram whey shake that’s absorbed in a couple hours or a large porterhouse whose protein is absorbed in ten hours. We’re not pooping amino acids. But are we using all that protein? Is it doing uniquely proteiny stuff, like building muscle? Or will everything above 30 grams get converted into glucose?

That depends. Many factors affect how your body utilizes a given amount of protein:

Body Size

If you’re a bigger person (longer limbs, more potential spots for amino acids to be utilized), you can handle more absolute protein, and that protein will be more likely to go toward muscle protein synthesis.

If you’re smaller, the reverse is true. You simply don’t need as much absolute protein for structural demands, and you’ll have a lower threshold before protein becomes an energy substrate. If you eat the same steak as the bigger guy (all else being equal), you won’t “use” as many of the amino acids as he will.

Activity Level

Are you sedentary? You require less protein. Your muscles aren’t getting the signal to build and grow stronger and adapt to an imposed demand. The RDA of 0.36g/lb bodyweight should suffice.

Are you moderately active, jogging here and there, maybe riding the bike to work once or twice a week, and doing some basic lifting in the gym? You can use a bit more, as physical activity increases protein demand.

Are you actively trying to pack on muscle mass, and working out accordingly? You can use a lot more protein, up to and perhaps even over 1g/lb bodyweight.

Age

Muscle maintenance in the elderly seems to require larger relative amounts of dietary protein. In one study, the RDA of 0.36g/lb bodyweight wasn’t enough to prevent some muscle catabolism.

Stress Level

Chronic stress, as indicated by chronically elevated cortisol levels, reduces muscle protein synthesis (protein doing proteiny stuff) and increases gluconeogenesis (conversion of protein into glucose).

It’s also worth noting that amino acids do other stuff, too, beyond building muscle and providing energy substrates when in excess. It’s not as if amino acids that don’t go toward rippling pecs are immediately converted into glucose. No, they’re also:

Taken up by the intestines, both as an energy source for the small intestine and to form a reserve pool of amino acids that the body can draw upon during fasting or starvation (when there’s little to no dietary amino acids input) instead of breaking down skeletal muscle to turn into energy, at least in rats.
Precursors for various neurotransmitters (like serotonin and dopamine).
So, to answer the question – yes, we’re probably absorbing all the protein we eat, but, depending on what we’re doing with our time, how old we are, how large or small we are, how active we are, how much we’re lifting, and how much stress we’re under, we’re all using the protein we absorb in different ways and proportions. As is often the case, the answer brings up even more questions. But that’s okay, because that’s just something else to explore.

So doc according to this I gues you're correct. We can use more protein just like you said. BUT it's not all being used the way we are wanting it to be used. So for muscle building purposes 25-30 may just be the optimum amount. Now I'm sure you can find something wrong with this study as my inter web skills are sketchy at best.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> Well you're obviously much more intelligent than I am plus you have "doc" in your name & a helluva following here. I guess we will just agree to disagree. I will still research on my own but I'll keep to myself to avoid the stones being thrown to question my intelligence and my ability to use the inter web. I won't be drinking any kool aid while here. ;-)
> I'll add I don't think just because someone weight trains that will allow them to use twice as much protein as someone who doesn't lift without wasting any.



This comment is totally off base. 

Please point me to anyone who's questioned your intelligence?

And how the hell does following and kool aid have anything to do with this? Who gives a shit about following? I've disagreed with RippedZilla recently on Clem/T3 compared to GH and he's one of the smartest guys I have the pleasure of knowing. I've disagreed with POB who has the largest "following" on here and is one of the smartest people on here in regards to training and programming. Please don't patronize me like that again bc I never went after you personally for not even doing your research before forming an opinion on a topic. 

Who ever said twice as much protein? I know I didn't.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> First off, “meal” is the key word, one that I omitted in my original statement. Eating 50 grams of straight protein – and protein alone, whether it’s whey protein or 99% fat-free lean sirloin – is probably going to have a different effect than eating a mixed meal which contains 50-some odd grams of protein in addition to fat and digestible, fermentable, and insoluble carbohydrates. In other words, protein is rarely eaten alone. It’s eaten atop salads, alongside veggies, with starches, and it often comes imbued with animal fat (as meat). It’s eaten as a meal.
> 
> Digestion takes a long time, and it’s not a segmented procession of different meals through the gastrointestinal tract. Food isn’t separated into “meals” in your stomach. It’s just all food, all mashed together. If you still have breakfast in your stomach when your lunch enters the picture, lunch and breakfast will meet and mingle. Stomach acid breaks the food down into a big semifluid mass of partially digested food components, water, digestive enzymes, and hydrochloric acid – all referred to as chyme.  When the chyme is “ready,” it’s pushed through the duodenum (where nutrient extraction begins) and into the intestines.
> 
> ...



this isn't a study first off. It's an article written by Mark Sisson. Huge difference between the two but your article does have some good information in it nonetheless. 

Apparently you put some faith into this article bc you've accepted that the body might be able to utilize more protein but you still go back to your 25-30g number even though this article is contradicting it. The article states you can use around 1g/lb BW of protein. For a 220lb lifter that's 220g protein. Your stance is 25-30g max per serving of protei every 3hrs (bc that's the common timeframe given with that number). Assuming this 220lb lifter gets 8hrs of sleep daily, that means he should eat 180g protein. While 180g protein might be perfectly fine to build muscle mass in this lifter, it's not necessarily optimal or maxed out. To maximize muscle gains you want to eat enough protein so that some of it ends up being converted to glucose and used for energy. By default this would mean you've maxed out your protein intake that can be used to build muscle. It's better to side with too much than too little bc high protein intake isn't dangerous and can be the difference between good and amazing results depending upon the disparity between science based recommendations and the 25-30g number. 

And no macronutrient ever gets used only how you want it to be used. Dietary fat for example is an essential nutrient and helps with endogenous hormonal production among other things. But dietary fat is also stored as fat in the body bc it's intake levels domt affect its oxidation levels. Would you lower your fat intake just bc of this?


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> This comment is totally off base.
> 
> Please point me to anyone who's questioned your intelligence?
> 
> ...



Please don't question my intelligence & whether or not I am smart enough to google something to find facts. The kool aid comment is because you seem to have a cult like following here to back you up. I honestly don't care who you have disagreed with here, we are adults & have different ideas. Now your comment on how it's not smart to use trial & error I guess you just use cycles you have read about instead of seeing how you respond to a cycle or specific AAS. Myself I will try different things to see how I respond instead of just doing what I have read. Sure I'll use what I have researched and read as a guideline but not as gospel.

Everything was fine until you seemed to question my intelligence & my ability to use the internet. Now I have an agenda. I am not just going to read what you post as fact when you don't give facts/studies to back it. You my friend were the first to comment something off base.

As far as twice as much protein if you were to go back and retread I stated 25-30 grams as being the optimal amount of protein at any one setting & the people that are saying BCAA are useless are probably the same ones ingesting 50 grams of protein post workout or any other time. You wanted to argue that point & schooled me on CCK & the ileal tract, which was cited in the study I posted. If you notice the study I posted with my limited skills using Google, states that 25-30 is indeed probably the optimal amount to be used for muscle building while going above that will more than likely be used for something else. You're up playa.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> Please don't question my intelligence & whether or not I am smart enough to google something to find facts.



I never did question your intelligence and I domt know why you think that. Seeing as you believe yourself to be an intelligent person and can google something to find facts, why did it take 3 pages and my asking you to do so before you finally did?



> The kool aid comment is because you seem to have a cult like following here to back you up.



I stand on the merits of my arguments and research not who backs me up or who follows me like a cult. 



> I honestly don't care who you have disagreed with here, we are adults & have different ideas.



So why are you getting pissy like a non-adult?



> Now your comment on how it's not smart to use trial & error I guess you just use cycles you have read about instead of seeing how you respond to a cycle or specific AAS. Myself I will try different things to see how I respond instead of just doing what I have read. Sure I'll use what I have researched and read as a guideline but not as gospel.



Go back and read my post again Mr-I-can-google-facts. I didn't say trial and error has no place just that alone it's full of unaccounted for variables. Objective peer reviewed and replicated research is the gold standard of information. That's not always available so trial and error can aid as a supplement to that or in the complete absence give us clues as to what to do but it will never replace it. 

And I have plenty of experience but the difference between us seems to be I use my experience to augment my research whereas you just domt do research until provoked. 



> Everything was fine until you seemed to question my intelligence & my ability to use the internet. Now I have an agenda. I am not just going to read what you post as fact when you don't give facts/studies to back it. You my friend were the first to comment something off base.



great you now have an agenda. Please do the research I provoked you to do and prove me wrong. I'm begging you. 

The ironic part here is you've still yet to post a study and openly admit everything you said is pure opinion or speculation on your part lol. 



> As far as twice as much protein if you were to go back and retread I stated 25-30 grams as being the optimal amount of protein at any one setting & the people that are saying BCAA are useless are probably the same ones ingesting 50 grams of protein post workout or any other time. You wanted to argue that point & schooled me on CCK & the ileal tract, which was cited in the study I posted. If you notice the study I posted with my limited skills using Google, states that 25-30 is indeed probably the optimal amount to be used for muscle building while going above that will more than likely be used for something else. You're up playa.



What's even more ironic from what I pointed out above is that you didn't believe training could affect protein needs yet your first post here was about how creatine and citrulline mallate was the reason you'd load up on protein and BCAAs. Here's the exact quote:



wallyd said:


> I use them during my workouts with Creatine. If you use citruline malate or other pre workout that opens up your veins why not pump as much as possible into the muscle? They are more readily available for use by the muscles so why not pump the muscle full of what it wants? Just my opinion, I have no studies to back this up.



NOW all of a sudden you want to say there's a limit to what the body can use? Or is it just that BCAAs and creatine are like unicorn piss and can change the body's physiology?

Am I supposed to tag you in now or what? I'm not sure why I ever was up bc You've brought nothing to the table besides contradicting yourself and stating an opinion. 

PS: what you posted by Mark Sisson  is NOT a study. But I'll let your intelligence and ability to use google explain to you the difference.


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## Bro Bundy (Sep 5, 2016)

Bros your both vets for many years.. Let's not argue nothing wrong with discussion but please keep it friendly .. I know u both for years I don't wanna see two vets arguing about bcaas lol


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## Bro Bundy (Sep 5, 2016)

Who ever has the longest cock wins


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## Joliver (Sep 5, 2016)

"We therefore have to conclude that there is no limit to the increase in the net anabolic response to higher and higher amounts of protein intake."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595342/


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I never did question your intelligence and I domt know why you think that. Seeing as you believe yourself to be an intelligent person and can google something to find facts, why did it take 3 pages and my asking you to do so before you finally did?
> 
> You questioned my ability to look up & find studies supporting my ideas. I told you I would continue to look & I did hence the study I posted. It didn't take 3 pages, you schooled me on CCK thingy & ileal doohickey & I posted shortly after that while at the same time proving my point about the amount of usable protein the body can use at one setting. Kind of cool I knocked all that out at once. Go WD!
> 
> ...



As stated before I knew you would have an issue with that. My guess is if you posted that "study" it would be gospel.?


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

Bro Bundy said:


> Bros your both vets for many years.. Let's not argue nothing wrong with discussion but please keep it friendly .. I know u both for years I don't wanna see two vets arguing about bcaas lol



You're right, I'm done. Doc can have the last post & win.


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

Ooops I did that wrong, you'll have to look above for my responses. I'm so silly, I can't do internet very well.


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

Bro Bundy said:


> Who ever has the longest cock wins



There you go doc, you get the last word so you have bigger junk than me. Lol Funny boy bro Bundy!


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## ToolSteel (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> As stated before I knew you would have an issue with that. My guess is if you posted that "study" it would be gospel.?


Nah. If doc posted an article as a "study" even I would call shenanigans. 


Please don't confuse respect for a "cult following"


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> As stated before I knew you would have an issue with that. My guess is if you posted that "study" it would be gospel.?



1) so you posted something other than your opinion in the first two pages? Double checked and it's still a nope. 

2) your desire to look things up may have been in question but not your ability. Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

3)  you didn't prove your point about maximal protein intake. You still don't understand it lol. See Joliver's post on page 3. Maybe your google skills will show you how to click the link. 

4) your word means nothing when it flies in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. Well, maybe it means something to you so I'll give you a gold star for effort maybe?

5) why does it matter that I've used BCAAs and found them to be worthless when there's real evidence that has much more weight than my word? Maybe I'm not full of myself like you and don't find my word to mean that much unless it's backed up by something more?

6) so you've researched AAS longer than I've been alive yet know next to nothing about protein metabolism, human physiology, supplement applications, etc. well you're welcome in that case. I just taught you more in two days than you would have learned in 31 years. The lesson is free of charge by the way, consider it a philanthropic contribution 

7) I will charge if you decide to change your username though. That's mine

8) of course I down played your simple opinion. I mean we can all sit around the campfire and tell each other stories but what's that prove? Trial and error on a personal level which is what you suggested is the same telling us a good story. Maybe you'll get a New York Times best seller out of it but it doesn't mean much to the rest of us on the forum who value informed advice. It still does not compare to objective evidence. Is there an echo?

9) you posted what you THOUGHT. What you know is almost as useless apparently bc you still can't understand basic physiology. Maybe I will charge you for the second lesson. 

10) I'm still here begging. If your intelligence is within 75 IQ points of where you think it is you'd see you haven't proved anything except that google failed you 

11) I'm sorry but I woke up my neighbor from the fit of laughter you gave me thinking what you posted is a study. After 31 years of researching AAS you still haven't found out what a study looks like? Jesus H Christ man! I'll probably be dead before you ever figure out what one is at this rate

12) maybe I will start to question your intelligence now. Nutrients go where they're needed period. Your body is programmed to do so. 

13) let's assume you're correct about how much protein the body can actually use, I know but bear with the joke, 25-30g of a protein source will give you about 6g of BCAAs as it stands. How stupid must you be to trade in the other 19-24g of the essential and other amino acids and pay a premium for it too? I know those aren't all numbers you can count on one hand but cmon on. 

14) coming from someone who has researched for more than 31 years and still has yet to know what a study even looks like I take offense sir! Try using your reading glasses and look at page 2 for the study I posted. Meanwhile, please stop claiming you posted a study bc it's an article. I'm hoping you're going to tell me you're just kidding and knew it was an article all along but I'm not holding my breath. For such an intelligent man you sure aren't that intelligent. (Now I went after your intelligence )

15) well I wouldn't post that "study" bc it's not a study but also I'm smart enough to know that's not proof. don't worry though, maybe with another few lifetimes of research you'll get it right and your word will be gospel too.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Nah. If doc posted an article as a "study" even I would call shenanigans.
> 
> 
> Please don't confuse respect for a "cult following"



Stop drinking the fukking kool aid Tool. Next thing you know our buddy Wally here will be telling you he knows how to use google to determine the flavor and actual sugar content of the kool aid.


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## Joliver (Sep 5, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Nah. If doc posted an article as a "study" even I would call shenanigans.
> 
> 
> Please don't confuse respect for a "cult following"



There has been so much talk of kool aid in this thread that if you remove the possibility of a cult, I'll call shenanigans on you, by god. Test me, Tool. I'll take you straight to Jonestown bro.


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## wallyd (Sep 5, 2016)

And we have a winner, eventhough I have no idea what half of that bs is that you posted because you're such an intellect! Now give me some kool aid!


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

Apparently a cult member of mine posted what a real study looks like. Now look at it two or three times or even more Wally and remember what it looks like for the future. I'm surprised you haven't seen one of these in 31 ears buddy. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595342/#!po=2.63158

Let's take a few quotes from the study and dissect them Wally shall we?

1) Several recent publications indicate that the maximum stimulation of muscle protein fractional synthetic rate occurs with intake of 20 to 30 gms protein. This finding has led to the concept that there is a maximal anabolic response to protein intake with a meal, and that the normal amount of protein eaten with dinner will generally exceed the maximally-effective intake of protein. However, protein breakdown has not been taken into account when evaluating the anabolic response to protein intake. Protein anabolism occurs only when protein synthesis exceeds breakdown protein breakdown.

Higher protein intakes when protein synthesis is maximized is characterized by suppressed protein breakdown and via that mechanism leads to a greater anabolic response. This explains why when net protein synthesis is measured, the relationship between amino acid availability and net gain remains linear, without any apparent plateau of effect at higher levels of availability. 

We conclude that there is no practical upper limit to the anabolic response to protein or amino acid intake in the context of a meal.

Hey Help me out here Wally. Is no upper limit to anabolic response to protein intake greater than or equal to 25-30g of protein? 

2) Results from our recent studies (Figure 3) and studies of others (13–18) in which whole body protein synthesis and breakdown have been measured suggest that in fact the theory is correct and that this relation remains even at high protein intakes. It is important to note that in all studies in which net protein synthesis has been measured, the relationship between amino acid availability and net gain is linear, with no plateau of effect at higher levels of availability.

If a relationship is linear with no sign of a plateau at higher levels of availability than 25-30g in one meal, what's that mean to you Wally? I'll wait 31 years for the answer....

3) The normal dinner includes more than 30 gms of protein, which is generally agreed to be sufficient to elicit the maximal stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. Consequently, it has been proposed that the maximal total stimulation of muscle protein synthesis over the day will be achieved by spreading protein intake out as opposed to eating most daily protein at dinner, which is currently the most common approach (2, 21). This hypothesis assumes that the nutritional goal of protein intake is the stimulation of muscle protein FSR. However, the anabolic response is a function not only of the rate of protein synthesis, but also of the rate of protein breakdown. We believe that the total anabolic response to protein intake, particularly in the context of a complete meal that stimulates an insulin response, is therefore incorrectly characterized by exclusive reliance on the FSR measurement. Extrapolation of the FSR response to the conclusion that there is a maximal amount of protein in a meal that can stimulate net protein anabolism is not justified. In our opinion, the preponderance of evidence indicates that the more protein in a meal, the more anabolism will be observed.

You think they meant up to 30g in one meal Wally? Oh wait, no they're talking about a lot more. Shucks, I thought this one might help your stance on the matter but it seems to support that damned cult. 

4) This perspective is supported by a recent publication in this journal (22) in which consumption of 80% of the 1.5 gram protein/kg BW/day in a single meal was more anabolic than spreading the same amount of protein intake throughout the day. If the limit to the maximal anabolic response of 30 gram/meal, the approach of providing most protein in one meal would have been unsuccessful in achieving the optimal anabolic respone. 

Ok I'm gonna need you here Wally to check my math for me since it's not my strong suit:

For 80% of 1.5g/kg BW in protein to be equal to the 30g maximum you're saying the person would have to be 

0.8 X 1.5 X Z = 30 or Z = 25kg

So for a 25 kilo or 55lbs 30g protein is better in one sitting than multiple sittings totaling to 30g. Now we're not talking about baby lifters so let's take an adult male at 100kg

100kg X 1.5g/kg X 80% = 120g. Wally since math isn't my strong suit can you tell me if 120g in one meal is greater than 25-30g in one meal? 

20 years from now you'll back on this day and remember fondly how a cult leader with doc in his name and one of his apostles Joliver helped show you your first study all the while sipping on the oh so delicious kool aid. Mmmmmm, it's like Doc popped your study cherry and for that you'll always be Doc's favorite


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 5, 2016)

wallyd said:


> You're right, I'm done. Doc can have the last post & win.



VVVVV



wallyd said:


> And we have a winner, eventhough I have no idea what half of that bs is that you posted because you're such an intellect! Now give me some kool aid!



Don't be a liar you intelligent google-fu'er. The last post is mine. 

And I must give credit in my E-fighting skills to Joliver. He fleeced me at a young age and raised me in his image. Except I don't like my sister nearly as much as he likes his.

There's something called a dictionary to help,you interpret it to something more suitable for your level


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## Joliver (Sep 5, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> VVVVV
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So proud of ma boy....so proud. And he's hairy...just like his deddy. 

I've got a study on sexual attraction to siblings and closely related cousins. Quick quote: "...the lower the tooth count, the increased desire reported from the male counterpart."

It's science.


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## Seeker (Sep 5, 2016)

Does anyone here know the origins of Gatorade? How and why it was invented? It's a pretty fascinating story. If you don't know, look it up. When you're working out busting and sweating your ass off for 1.5 to 2 hours, what is your body losing during this time?  Op as far creatine goes once your body is saturated with creatine after so many days of use, it's saturated. That's not a bad thing, but using it during your workout doesn't make much difference eirher.


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 6, 2016)

Did we seriously just have a fight over the protein consumption thing? Please tell me no...


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## Joliver (Sep 6, 2016)

PillarofBalance said:


> Did we seriously just have a fight over the protein consumption thing? Please tell me no...



Any conversation worth having is best suited for angry bouts of screaming. Parents taught me that.




PillarofBalance said:


> Terminating you as a client for this....



Good move. This man is a terrible person. Just terrible.


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