# Liver Supplements



## tunafisherman (Dec 2, 2016)

Not sure if I can ask questions relating to scientific studies here, and if not I apologize in advance.  But what studies exist about milk thistle or other liver supplements?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 2, 2016)

That as a prophylactic treatment for AAS induced choleostasis they make for a lighter wallet without helping.


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## tunafisherman (Dec 2, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> That as a prophylactic treatment for AAS induced choleostasis they make for a lighter wallet without helping.



So is there anything that can be used to aide the liver, either in recovering from damage or helping prevent the damage?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 2, 2016)

tunafisherman said:


> So is there anything that can be used to aide the liver,



Drink plenty of fluids and restriction of dose and duration of AAS, especially orals. 



> either in recovering from damage or helping prevent the damage?



Nothing has been shown to be a prophylactic agent to the liver. AAS induced hepatic injuries are relatively rare.


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 2, 2016)

I stopped using liver sups and my wallet feels better


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 5, 2016)

Although Doc is correct that there is no evidence for any supplement acting as a prophylactic treatment (preventing damage) for the liver, its important to keep in mind the impossibility of establishing such a thing in the first place. 
For ethical reasons, you cannot have controlled human trials where you actively attempt to **** up the subjects liver and see if a supplement works well to protect against your attempt - that type of research doesn't & never will exist. As a result, scientific research is fairly useless in helping us here (beyond looking at case studies, animal data, other stuff that's difficult to interpret accurately). 

As for recovering from damage, most supplements (NAC, UDCA, etc) have mixed evidence behind them that makes it difficult to "recommend" any but I'd have to look back into the data before giving a more conclusive answer (give me a few days). 

In the meantime, let's focus on getting an accurate picture of whether or not your having liver issues in the first place so here is an article I wrote elsewhere:


*How to accurately identify liver damage from oral steroids*

I'm making this topic to explain why the usual liver function test that most guys take is NOT effective at spotting liver damage from oral steroids. 

Lets start with the data...

Muscular exercise can cause highly pathological liver function tests in healthy men

AIM: 
To investigate the effect of intensive muscular exercise (weightlifting) on clinical chemistry parameters reflecting liver function in healthy men.

RESULTS: 
Five out of eight studied clinical chemistry parameters (AST, ALT, LD, CK and myoglobin) increased significantly after exercise (P < 0.01) and remained increased for at least 7 days postexercise. Bilirubin, gamma GT and ALP remained within the normal range.

CONCLUSION: 
*The liver function parameters, AST and ALT, were significantly increased for at least 7 days after the exercise.*
In addition, LD and, in particular, CK and myoglobin showed highly elevated levels. These findings highlight the importance of imposing restrictions on weightlifting prior to and during clinical studies. Intensive muscular exercise, e.g. weightlifting, should also be considered as a cause of asymptomatic elevations of liver function tests in daily clinical practice.


There was also a very enlightening commentary on this study that shows us EXACTLY how to determine liver damage from oral steroids:

Enzyme elevations with muscle injury: know what to look for!
_"We reported almost 10 years ago on the severe elevations that may be seen in competitive bodybuilders both on and off anabolic steroids [2]... 
*Most significantly we found the most simplistic laboratory value that should be included when examining resistance-exercise athletes is to include gamma glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT). *We found none of our exercise subjects had elevations of GGT while patients with any form of hepatitis, who were analyzed retrospectively, all had GGT elevations [2]."_


My interpretation

The first study shows that resistance training alone will cause an asymptomatic increase in ALT & AST values, which is what most people look at to determine whether or not orals are causing any harm to their liver. 
The second commentary illustrates that GGT would only increase if their was actually any damage, not simply as a response to resistance training. 

The main levels people see when taking a basic liver function profile are ALT, AST & Bilirubin.
ALT & AST levels can be elevated simply as a result of training induced muscle damage and therefore are NOT an accurate method of determining what's really going on. 
Serum Bilirubin is accurate in showing potential liver damage but not as a measurement on its own (unless your levels are really high, twice the reference limit for example). 

The solution is to measure GGT levels.
GGT levels will only be elevated to show direct liver damage from the orals and any high value should be taken very seriously. Of course the damage can be caused by other factors such as excess alcohol intake, diabetes, etc so its a good idea to get a pre-cycle test to eliminate other potential factors outside of the oral steroids. 
At the same time, normal GGT levels will indicate that there is nothing to worry about - so it ticks all the boxes as a method to be used to determine liver health.


Summary

Considering both the liver function profile and the GGT bloodwork cost around the same amount, I strongly recommend going for the GGT if you cannot afford both with GGT & Bilirubin being the key numbers to look out for. 
This will give you a much more reliable measure of monitoring your liver


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 5, 2016)

Imo nac is so cheap u might as well just take it..We know it cant hurt if it works or not


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## gymrat827 (Dec 5, 2016)

NAC & TUCDA

TUCDA is $$ but NAC and milk thistle can be bought for cheap.  

None are all that effective tho, just do minor bits.  Do not drink while on orals, do not go for longer then 6wks & lots of fluids.  I just do NAC


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 5, 2016)

I have no idea about lab studies on this but I can share my experiences.

a while back I ran 2g of tren a week for 14 months. tren @ 1400 a week and tren a at 600 a week I believe. I also was injecting winni and other oils as well this whole time. around the one year mark I started noticing my eyes getting a little yellowish. I wrote it off as the fluorescent lights in the gym. At month 13 my fingernails were yellowish as well. At month 14 my girl and friends were asking me what was wrong with my eyes. Blood tests immediately followed. My liver enzymes were almost at 500 and my bilirubin was extremely high. I as staring liver damage in the face. First thing I did was drop everything except test at a trt dose. Then start trying all the liver products I could find. 

Milk thistle = Didn't do a dam thing to help
liv 52 = Didn't do a dam thing to help
SILIBININ = Didn't do a dam thing
udca = helped a tiny bit but not enough to even put a dent in the damage.
sythergine = completely fixed my liver within one week.

I am not a rep or anything but I will put my life on sythergine. I have blood work to prove it. I have never once stopped taking sythergine from that moment on. I cannot cycle without it. I can drink a gallon of winni and have tren on an IV drip and my liver now will still stay perfect. Hell I've been on a blast for over 2 1/2 years now with orals and my liver is still perfect. I've even posted my blood work with my values like 2 months ago. I've tried all the other synthetek products (thinking if the liver shit is that good the other shit must be fire too) and never got anything out of them but that sythergine is no Fukin joke. No one even knows about that shit. Everyone I tell just nods their head and is like cool story bro. I have fukin blood work on the shit. It's real. Believe it or not whatever but everyone keeps blowing their money on all this other bullshit...

anyway that's my experience


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 5, 2016)

Cobra Strike said:


> I have no idea about lab studies on this but I can share my experiences.
> 
> a while back I ran 2g of tren a week for 14 months. tren @ 1400 a week and tren a at 600 a week I believe. I also was injecting winni and other oils as well this whole time. around the one year mark I started noticing my eyes getting a little yellowish. I wrote it off as the fluorescent lights in the gym. At month 13 my fingernails were yellowish as well. At month 14 my girl and friends were asking me what was wrong with my eyes. Blood tests immediately followed. My liver enzymes were almost at 500 and my bilirubin was extremely high. I as staring liver damage in the face. First thing I did was drop everything except test at a trt dose. Then start trying all the liver products I could find.
> 
> ...



can it be bought at a regular vitamin shop?


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## BiologicalChemist (Dec 5, 2016)

TUDCA/UDCA/NAC are my go to liver supports...There are some clinical studies on these I will need to pull them up they are hidden in my old school folders but I found several promising ones. UDCA is currently used as a prescription for liver damage. I think the best thing to do to protect your liver and kidneys is to avoid orals and if you do run them or any other AAS for that matter just keep the doses relatively low and get frequent blood work to see where you're at. Drink a ton of water everyday and don't drink alcohol. With that said everyone is different when it comes to their health and their side effects from drugs. But I have yet to have any liver issue using gear.


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## NbleSavage (Dec 5, 2016)

Bro Bundy said:


> can it be bought at a regular vitamin shop?



Have to buy it off their website, Mate.

I've used it as well - brought my AST and ALT back in-line like nothing else. Bit spendy, but if yer on a heavy Tren cycle prolly worth it.


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## corvettels3 (Dec 6, 2016)

I can't comment on elevated liver enzymes from juicing, but milk thistle did bring down my mother-in-law numbers. Her numbers were in the 400-500 range and within a month her numbers were back in the normal range.


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## MrRippedZilla (Dec 6, 2016)

Important to keep in mind that reducing biomarkers (AST, ALT, etc) does NOT automatically mean less damage to the liver, especially when we know that GGT & Bilirubin are more relevant to our community. 

Also, Bilirubin is the normal by-product of the breakdown of hemoglobin so elevated levels should be expected since hemoglobin levels are higher with AAS use. With this mind, do you really want to reduce Bilirubin if it means maintaining elevated levels of hemoglobin? Something to consider for those not donating. 

Beyond that, if anyone finds data supporting the use of any supplement to repair liver damage (non exists for protection so let's leave that out of the discussion) then by all means post up a thread and we'll dive into it. 
Using UDCA as an example since I've recommended it previously:

Ursodeoxycholic and tauro-ursodeoxycholic acids for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis: a pilot crossover study
Both TUDCA & UDCA improvement biomarkers (including GGT) with insignificant differences between the two - so I see no reason to spend the extra cash and go for TUDCA, UDCA will work just fine. 

But then we have the issue of bias, rampant in scientific research unfortunately, as highlighted by this RCT review paper:
Ursodeoxycholic acid for primary biliary cirrhosis
_"Ursodeoxycholic acid seemed to have a beneficial effect on liver biochemistry measures and on histological progression compared with the control group. *All but one of the included trials had high risk of bias, and there are risks of outcome reporting bias and risks of random errors as well.* Randomised trials with low risk of bias and low risks of random errors examining the effects of ursodeoxycholic acid for primary biliary cirrhosis are needed."_

So yes, it really doesn't look like any supplement has good scientific research supporting its use.


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## ThePhantom (Dec 7, 2016)

Keep it simple lots of water and a good vitimin....the clearer your piss the better off you are


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## Coastie10 (Feb 3, 2018)

Tons of H2O


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## john210 (Feb 3, 2018)

You can use GW-1516. GW-1516 is non-catabolic. This means that you will be able to retain your gains even after you discontinue using the product. In the first dose, you can already see the results with the increased energy. You will not feel anxious, and you not crash either. This product is not harsh on the liver.


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## Jin (Feb 3, 2018)

john210 said:


> You can use GW-1516. GW-1516 is non-catabolic. This means that you will be able to retain your gains even after you discontinue using the product. In the first dose, you can already see the results with the increased energy. You will not feel anxious, and you not crash either. This product is not harsh on the liver.



Where can I buy GW-1516?


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## stonetag (Feb 3, 2018)

Jin said:


> Where can I buy GW-1516?



Had to google GW-1516, sounds more carcinogenic then any real benefits, but to answer your ? Jin.....Walmart!


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