# TRT guy thinking about going over to the dark side.



## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm just doing some thinking out loud here about a hypothetical first cycle.
I'm a TRT guy and life has been miserable trying to get these jackass endo's to bump my regimen.
Constantly feel like crap, no sex drive blah blah blah, the whole nine.

For clarity's sake, I'm prescribed 100mg EW but I wind up taking in 60mg e3.5d of Watson Cyp (mmmm, smooth).
This puts my levels at 400-500ng/dl pretty consistently.
They won't bump me despite being on the low range but that's another story.

I'll be cutting some weight before attempting this cycle, currently I sit at 6'2" 270lbs and BF% is high at the moment.
I'd like to keep this hypothetical first cycle simple, a test-only cycle to get out of the gate since I've never taken more than 200mg at a whack before.

I was thinking 750mg Test E EW.

Thoughts?

Should that dose be split into two 375mg doses and done e3.5d like my TRT?

Training history: 3 years total, one straight, took a break now I've been regular for 2 years straight training 3x weekly.
My training has been revolving around the big 4 (bench, dead, OHP and squat) and I've been running 5/3/1 for a while now but since my T has been low for so long, my stats aren't that impressive. I train for strength primarily so being shredded isn't really a priority of mine.


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## Tren4Life (Jan 24, 2014)

I would go with 500 mon and Thursday for your first run.


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## RustyShackelford (Jan 24, 2014)

Agreed^. 500 mg/week is a good place to start. Worked great for me.


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## DF (Jan 24, 2014)

Yup, I'd go with 500mg/week for a first blast.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Interesting, what's the reasoning behind that recommendation?


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 24, 2014)

How is the rest of your bloodwork. I am leery.  If you have bp issues for example that will get worse.

I think you might do better to spend some money on a diet with spongy. You will see better results and feel better.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> How is the rest of your bloodwork. I am leery.  If you have bp issues for example that will get worse.
> 
> I think you might do better to spend some money on a diet with spongy. You will see better results and feel better.



BP is 128/29 last time I took it but that was immediately after driving over an hour on the highway in a deathtrap of a Jeep.

What specific info are you looking for from my blood work, I have hard copies of my bloods dating back to 2010 sitting next to me.

This is why I want to talk about it though, it may not be a great idea for me.
PoB, I would be losing weight before attempting an AAS cycle.


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> BP is 128/29 last time I took it but that was immediately after driving over an hour on the highway in a deathtrap of a Jeep.
> 
> What specific info are you looking for from my blood work, I have hard copies of my bloods dating back to 2010 sitting next to me.



Nothing specific. Just your overall risk level for heart attack or chronic illnesses. If you are healthy go for it. Most guys that need trt are not healthy.


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## DF (Jan 24, 2014)

I recommend 500mg because you will make great gains.  Also with each blast if you do more you are probably going to up the mg.  I made great gains on around 300mg/week.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Nothing specific. Just your overall risk level for heart attack or chronic illnesses. If you are healthy go for it. Most guys that need trt are not healthy.



Hmm, lets see what I can come up with:

Based on my last bout of bloods:

*General Chemistry:*
Fasting Glucose: 87      ref range 70-100
BUN: 22      ref range: 6-20
CRET: 1.07      ref range: 0-1.3
CA: 9.2      ref range: 8.6-10.6
TP   6.4      ref range: 6.4-8.3
ALK PHOS: 56      ref range:50-142
SGOT-AST: 78   ref range:10-41    *Note - I was drinking heavily the night before but have cut out alcohol entirely since

*Hepatic Function:*
SGPT-ALT:  58     ref range:10-49   *Note - I was drinking heavily the night before but have cut out alcohol entirely since
BILI TOT: .6    ref range:.2-1.3

*Electrolytes:*
NA: 142    ref range:135-145
K: 4.6    ref range:3.5-5.3
CL:108     ref range:98-112
C02 29    ref range:20-32
AN GAP: 5     ref range:5-15

*Lipid Profile - Fasted:*
Chol: 145
Trig: 112
HDL: 64
CALC LDL: 59

*Anemia Group:*
Transferrin: 221    ref range:200-350
Ferritin: 111     ref range:20-250
Folate: 9.7     ref range:2-15


*Hematology - Hemogram*

WBC: 5.8      ref range:4-11
RBC: 4.99     ref range: 4.2-5.8
HGB: 15.8     ref range:13-17.3
HCT: 47.2     ref range:40-54
MCV: 94.4     ref range: 83-96
RDW 12.1     ref range:11.5-16
PLT: 217      ref range:140-440

*Automated Differential:*

#NEUT: 3.3     ref range: 1.5-7.5
#LYMPH: 1.9     ref range: 1-4.5
#MONO: .6     ref range: 0-.8
#EOS: .1     ref range: 0-.4
#BASO: 0      ref range: 0-.2

*Gastrointestinal:*
Prolactin: 7.2     ref range: .1-15.2

*Endocrine, THYROID*
FT4: 1     ref range:.7-1.9
T3: 93.1     ref range:113-184
TSH: 1.12     ref range:.3-5

*Endocrine, ADRENAL*
Cortisol AM: 16      ref range:4-22

*Fertility*
LH  <.1      ref range:2.7-7.7

*Androgens:*
Test Total: 428       ref range:300-950
SHBG  47.6       ref range:7.2-100
Calculated FAI: 31.2      ref range:14.8-94.8

*Tumor Markers*
Prostate Specific AG: .44      ref range: 0-4

Phew.

So what do you think, am I dying?


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 24, 2014)

Agreed with above. You can make great gains in the beginning with lowish doses. Max out the gains at low doses, see how you react to different compounds, and you can go up when the gains start stalling. If you start by blasting a gram a week, you have no where to go, but up in into Bostin Lloyd territory...

If you really just want to cut, you could do fine with just 300mg/week. You're 270, so unless you're 30% BF or 6'-8", you have a lot of muscle under there.


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## Maintenance Man (Jan 24, 2014)

Ron I would at least start at 500 and assess from there. 

I'm sure you will see the difference in overall well being once you raise the dosage considerably especially since you have been on TRT for 15 years plus. You seem to be very familiar with what you feel at your lower doses. 

I know I'm a bastard in ways of holding this but I find it hard for a person to react badly to test but I'm sure they are out there. Just a very small percentage Id go to say. 

I wouldnt go any higher than 750 your 1st time out Ron. If thats not doing it for you, Id say adding another compound before going any higher. Im sure you would love a low dose deca anyway. 

All the cool kids do anyway


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## DF (Jan 24, 2014)

Blood work looks good except what you noted with your liver function.  Another reason to keep the mg low is to see how your BP responds & also your blood work.  When I did my first blast after starting trt I used 500mg.  My BP ended up thru the roof & I had headaches every friggin day.  That sucked ass big time.  During this last balst of 1.2g/test, 800mg/deca my BP was actually fine...  Best to see how your body does with the lower mg first IMO.


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## Seeker (Jan 24, 2014)

I like what DF just explained. You mentioned you want to loose some weight before you start. If your bf% is high I also think that is a good idea. What plans do you have to start losing some bf?


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I like what DF just explained. You mentioned you want to loose some weight before you start. If your bf% is high I also think that is a good idea. What plans do you have to start losing some bf?



Same as always, just keeping diet in check while maintaining my regular routine.
I've counted calories for months on end before and got great results so I'll just go back to that.
Maybe throw some additional cardio in there.
Things got a little lax over the holidays and I was actively trying to gain some mass to build my pathetic total.

Being shredded isn't my goal, I just wouldn't want to be crazy fat going into this.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Have some Minna as thanks for stopping by:


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm no blood work expert, but am I missing something, or is your T3 low?


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> I'm no blood work expert, but am I missing something, or is your T3 low?


You are correct, I'm subclinically hypothyroid. It doesn't always pop low sometimes it's just on the lower end of the spectrum.
I can still lose weight, I just have to eat less than a people of similar size who has a healthy thyroid.


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## DieYoungStrong (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> You are correct, I'm subclinically hypothyroid. It doesn't always pop low sometimes it's just on the lower end of the spectrum.
> I can still lose weight, I just have to eat less than a people of similar size who has a healthy thyroid.



A little T3 with your "blast" might work wonders for your cut.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> A little T3 with your "blast" might work wonders for your cut.



I've got some chilling in my fridge as we speak


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## PillarofBalance (Jan 24, 2014)

Wow! What caused the hypogonadism? Unusual to see someone who is actually hypo with good bloodwork like that. **** it... run the 500 test


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Wow! What caused the hypogonadism? Unusual to see someone who is actually hypo with good bloodwork like that. **** it... run the 500 test



Woo! I'm not dying! 
That's actually good to hear, really.

Long story short, testicular trauma a long, long time ago.


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## Maintenance Man (Jan 24, 2014)

Skateboarding??? My best bud has a one nut special from HS days lol


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Maintenance Man said:


> Skateboarding???



Did you ever see someone 6'2" 320lbs anywhere near a skateboard? lol

That was my starting weight, then down to 210, now up to 270ish.

So it sounds like 500mg EW is the way to go, and would you fellas still recommend that e3.5d protocol?


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

So, now the question becomes; how long should I run this stuff?
And; Why bother with PCT since I'm on TRT for life?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> Did you ever see someone 6'2" 320lbs anywhere near a skateboard? lol
> 
> That was my starting weight, then down to 210, now up to 270ish.
> 
> So it sounds like 500mg EW is the way to go, and would you fellas still recommend that e3.5d protocol?



I've never seen someone 6'2" 320lbs on skis either


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> So, now the question becomes; how long should I run this stuff?
> And; Why bother with PCT since I'm on TRT for life?



14-16wks and obviously no need for pct for you Ron


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> I've never seen someone 6'2" 320lbs on skis either



You should, I'm a spectacular snow-whale when I'm on skis.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> 14-16wks and obviously no need for pct for you Ron



That being said, is there any sense coming off this blast and going back to my TRT dosage of 120mg/wk?
Or maybe my "cruise" should be higher now?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> That being said, is there any sense coming off this blast and going back to my TRT dosage of 120mg/wk?
> Or maybe my "cruise" should be higher now?



You're still getting bloods done occasionally through the endos no? They'd notice a spike in your test levels if you raised your TRT dose. If you want to raise it just be careful if you're still doing bloods with the doctors.


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You're still getting bloods done occasionally through the endos no? They'd notice a spike in your test levels if you raised your TRT dose. If you want to raise it just be careful if you're still doing bloods with the doctors.



Not as frequently as you may think.
They don't request me to do bloods, I have to force them to.
I have a few weeks worth of notice before routine bloods, I get maybe 2 yearly when I schedule my regular checkups unless I really push for more.


I've not found an endo yet that really gives a sh*t about checking blood on the regular.


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## Maintenance Man (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> Did you ever see someone 6'2" 320lbs anywhere near a skateboard? lol
> 
> That was my starting weight, then down to 210, now up to 270ish.
> 
> So it sounds like 500mg EW is the way to go, and would you fellas still recommend that e3.5d protocol?



Ive seen some gravity defying skateboarders in my time yes lol


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## Maintenance Man (Jan 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> 14-16wks and obviously no need for pct for you Ron



In in for 16 weeks. I like a nice rounded off month


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## Joliver (Jan 24, 2014)

I am going to separate from the pack on this one.  Run 750mgs.  You wont be happy with 500mgs.  Keep an eye on BP and lipids and you will be fine!


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

joliver said:


> I am going to separate from the pack on this one.  Run 750mgs.  You wont be happy with 500mgs.  Keep an eye on BP and lipids and you will be fine!



You know I'm going to pick your brain on this 

What would 750 get me that 500 wont?


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## transcend2007 (Jan 24, 2014)

I must respectively disagree with my brothers here.

I have been on trt/hrt for more than 3 years.  Plus, I completed a cycle in December.  I can tell you from first hand experience increasing your testosterone nor trt is going to magically make you feel great or solve your libido problems.

Let's be honest.  You're 70+ pounds overweight.  I am not saying this to be negative make you feel bad.  

It is to simply point out what you are doing today and the past 3 years are not working for you.

First, you've got to get with someone who understands diet (Spongy) or someone local.  Adding 15 pounds of muscle on a cycle is not going to solve your issue.  You'll still have 70+ of body fat.

You will not be any healthier at the end of your cycle.

At the very least, give some consideration the results you are getting from your current diet, trt and, your current workout regimen.  It would seem until you ascertain why your not getting results there that should be NO consideration what so ever about adding anything else.


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## Joliver (Jan 24, 2014)

Iron1 said:


> You know I'm going to pick your brain on this
> 
> What would 750 get me that 500 wont?



Results from any AAS will be dose dependent.  I like to think of test in multiples of my cruise serum levels.  I want to, at least, triple that number.  Blood concentrations are also based on blood volume.  You are a bigger guy.  It will take higher doses to raise you to a supraphysiological level.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12067856


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## Iron1 (Jan 24, 2014)

transcend2007 said:


> ..snip...


Thank you for your input transcend and believe me, you're not going to insult me about my weight.
Having been 320lbs for years and years, I’m happy even to be 270 but I’ve been as low as 210.

Based on what I've posted why do you think what I’ve been doing for the past three years hasn't worked for me?
In the past three years I’ve:
Shed 90 lbs
Increased my total by over 800lbs
Intentionally put on 30 lbs of lean mass
All with test levels in the 400-500 range and a subclinical hypothyroid condition, wouldn't that qualify as working?

My goals are not to be aesthetic specifically, I have no interest in being any lower than mid-teens for BF%.
I’m not doing this to be healthy, I’m contemplating this because I want to get bigger and stronger.
The additional effects on health and libido are a wild card to me and something that I've never in my life been able to experience.
You're lucky you've only been on TRT for 3 years, I've been on for over 15.

It was also stated earlier in this thread that I will be dieting down before ever attempting an AAS cycle.
If this winds up being something that I want to do, I'll get down to 230-240 before starting anything which would put me in the teens for BF%

But this is why I like talking about this, I like differing opinions and the attempts at rationalizing them.
Makes you think from different angles. I welcome any and all conversation.


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## Joliver (Jan 24, 2014)

transcend2007 said:


> I must respectively disagree with my brothers here.
> 
> I have been on trt/hrt for more than 3 years.  Plus, I completed a cycle in December.  I can tell you from first hand experience increasing your testosterone nor trt is going to magically make you feel great or solve your libido problems.
> 
> ...




Iron is an accomplished PLer given what his TRT regimen calls entails.  I know I couldn't have accomplished what he did given the tools he has.


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## Joliver (Jan 24, 2014)

joliver said:


> Iron is an accomplished PLer given what his TRT regimen calls entails.  I know I couldn't have accomplished what he did given the tools he has.



When I read that, it seemed backhanded.  Let me clarify:

Ron is an accomplished PL period.  He has done it spite of his TRT regimen.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 24, 2014)

joliver said:


> When I read that, it seemed backhanded.  Let me clarify:
> 
> Ron is an accomplished PL period.  He has done it spite of his TRT regimen.



Exactly. I've know Ron since he joined another forum and then here. His TRT regimen is without a doubt the most fukked protocol I have seen. It took his docs and insurance God knows how long just to get an MRI done when they thought he might have a pituitary tumor. His docs refuse to budge on anything and his levels are that of a much older guy. How many of the brothers here are on TRT but their test levels are 800-900ng/dL or above? Ron is just half of that. Considering the bullshit he has to put up with with his doctors he must have patience like I couldn't imagine. He has also been around this for a while so I believe he has the knowledge to cycle (blast) safely given his history and reading from here.


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## transcend2007 (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks Iron1...I didn't have all of your information.  Especially the part about losing 90 pounds in the past 3 years....and increasing strength level.....well done!

I also was making an assumptions you were my age (47) or older.  In the past 10 years since quitting smoking I have gone from roughly 30% body fat to 15%.  I did that mostly for health reasons and to look better of course.  I feel better at 47 than I did at 37....not just because of a higher test level.  It is the overall change that has increased my energy and libido.

I agree with your bf% reduction strategy before starting and I would also say go with less test.  There was an interesting white paper on SI that compared 300mg to 600mg of test per week.  There was not much difference in positive results however negative sides increased such as high blood pressure, acne, hair loss, as well as elevated estrogen.  With that said 750mg's per week is not a unreasonable number. 

Keep us posted on what you decide.





Iron1 said:


> Thank you for your input transcend and believe me, you're not going to insult me about my weight.
> Having been 320lbs for years and years, I’m happy even to be 270 but I’ve been as low as 210.
> 
> Based on what I've posted why do you think what I’ve been doing for the past three years hasn't worked for me?
> ...


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