# Pharmaceuticals



## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

How was your decision process starting out? If you're taking test only especially, I am starting to appreciate that this has more to it than what I thought starting to read about it.

Why did you start? And anyone tried going through a men's health clinic and getting a script then said F*** it i'll do my own at some point?

And anyone has experience getting pharmaceutical grade from another country successfully and basically ... not having high risks of infection and stuff?
_
Background info: I have not decided to go the UG route,  but I want to know your experiences and decision process, so please share, I'm still learning and considering my first step at a clinic, and give that a try (even if it will set me back about $1,700 according to my first estimate calling a clinic, I figured other people have probably lost more at the border buying UG anyway so if I'm possibly throwing money out the window, at least I'll minimize my risks starting out with close doctor supervision). Thanks!_


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## Spongy (May 26, 2018)

$1700?!  Find another clinic!  I started on TRT through a clinic and paid $610 for 2 vials, HCG, and an AI.  Lasted me 20 weeks.  Reordered once then went to UGL and haven't looked back once.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

Lol! Actually, it's $1300 per year minus filling any scripts, that includes doctor visits and testing only. And the initial is $300 to see the doc without testing, then you gotto commit $1300 for testing and regular visits (without any guarantee you will be given anything). And if you commit they deduct your initial $300. I thought that the process was standard. And it's in Canada so maybe that's also why it's pricier...

You can't go to the doc and demand anything anyway I mean, it's up to them if they decide to prescribe anything right...


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## dk8594 (May 26, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> Lol! Actually, it's $1300 per year minus filling any scripts, that includes doctor visits and testing only. And the initial is $300 to see the doc without testing, then you gotto commit $1300 for testing and regular visits (without any guarantee you will be given anything). And if you commit they deduct your initial $300. I thought that the process was standard. And it's in Canada so maybe that's also why it's pricier...
> 
> You can't go to the doc and demand anything anyway I mean, it's up to them if they decide to prescribe anything right...



So $1,300 CND? That’s like $40 US dollars, right? 


Seriously, keep looking. There has to be more than one clinic in Canada.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

Lol yeah i think that's about right, so I'd have to work overtime at the Canada Goose factory to afford it in a couple of years





dk8594 said:


> So $1,300 CND? That’s like $40 US dollars, right?
> 
> 
> Seriously, keep looking. There has to be more than one clinic in Canada.


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## stonetag (May 26, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> Lol yeah i think that's about right, so I'd have to work overtime at the Canada Goose factory to afford it in a couple of years


I was wondering where all the Canada geese come from, need to lay some folks off, we’re overstocked down here!


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## dk8594 (May 26, 2018)

You have multiple threads going, so forgive me for reposting this link, but it pertains to prices in Canada, which should be helpful.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26986676

My decision to go through a clinic was largely due to my ignorance of UGLs and wanting to stay legal.  For TRT purposes, you don't want to have to worry about UGLs under/over dosing your meds, nor do you want to worry whether a source you   use one year will still be available the next.  On top of that, going through a UGL is illegal.  It's a personal choice, but you have decide how much risk you are willing to take and if the reward is worth it. Career and children could play a factor.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

Thanks man, yeah I'm trying to get some more research done on my days off. My understanding is: hrr clinics will never prescribe enough for "gains" since that's not what they're for, so they don't entertain men who wanna get big using steroids. And on top of that, that talk at the clinic is sure to lower your chances of getting any script from the doc... Am i correct or did i get it wrong? This is just what I've gathered so far.

What did they start you at if you don't mind me asking?


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## dk8594 (May 26, 2018)

Trt is not for gains.  It’s therapy and life long journey. Anyone who goes to a clinic and starts talking about the “mad gainz” they are going to make should be turned away.  One shouldn’t approach it looking to be Superman; one should approach it seeking to feel how they did in their 20s. 

I started off on testosterone cream. You’ll hear a lot of people knock it, but going from nothing to something turned my life around.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

I'm doing my best not to get ahead of myself, yeah, i want to see my levels. I'm doing bloodwork soon. Then if I'm possibly low, I'm going to try going to a clinic. That's why I'm looking for one.

But I'll be lying to myself if i said that aside from wanting to feel better, i didn't want more! I'm also greedy i guess... dudes in their 20s are already shutting down their systems apparently starting too early to get gains, so i don't see why people think it's wrong if you're over 30 to use steroids to get quicker results and feel like Superman for whole if you can somehow manage to do it relatively safely... Is that so wrong?


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

About the cream, i don't know i didn't find any good reviews so far (courtesy of Dr Rand on YouTube), it makes sense that if you can get professional grade testosterone why not inject it instead of using a creme...


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## Viduus (May 26, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> I'm doing my best not to get ahead of myself, yeah, i want to see my levels. I'm doing bloodwork soon. Then if I'm possibly low, I'm going to try going to a clinic. That's why I'm looking for one.
> 
> But I'll be lying to myself if i said that aside from wanting to feel better, i didn't want more! I'm also greedy i guess... dudes in their 20s are already shutting down their systems apparently starting too early to get gains, so i don't see why people think it's wrong if you're over 30 to use steroids to get quicker results and feel like Superman for whole if you can somehow manage to do it relatively safely... Is that so wrong?



Everyone here strongly recommends against guys in their 20s shutting themselves down. You’ll also see just about everyone suggesting having training and diet very much in check before diving in.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

I got that part, if training and diet isn't optimal yet, then what's the point of test in case you're within normal ranges, it totally makes sense. I've also been trying to work on my energy levels that's i think one of the worst symptoms I've been experiencing, due to the meds I'm taking and used to drink too much coffee every single day, too much sugar, not enough water.

So I've turned those things around and my energy levels are better but i really need to get off this pain med that's making me feel like I've been hit by a train since i started taking it, and I thought taking test could also help me with my energy levels... I don't know





Viduus said:


> Everyone here strongly recommends against guys in their 20s shutting themselves down. You’ll also see just about everyone suggesting having training and diet very much in check before diving in.


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## PillarofBalance (May 26, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> I got that part, if training and diet isn't optimal yet, then what's the point of test in case you're within normal ranges, it totally makes sense. I've also been trying to work on my energy levels that's i think one of the worst symptoms I've been experiencing, due to the meds I'm taking and used to drink too much coffee every single day, too much sugar, not enough water.
> 
> So I've turned those things around and my energy levels are better but i really need to get off this pain med that's making me feel like I've been hit by a train since i started taking it, and I thought taking test could also help me with my energy levels... I don't know



Testosterone isn't a stimulant and will not provide you energy. You also don't have blood work showing low test that I am aware of. Correct me if I am wrong. Wait for your blood work to come back. Until it does there isn't really much of a reason for You to be examining AAS imo.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 26, 2018)

You're correct man, i do know it's not a stimulant. But i also read everywhere that people who took it saying it made them feel that way, that's how i interpreted it anyway. I will find out more but i think there's still value in exploring aas, and getting into it at some point.

I'm not jumping into using anything right away, but once i fix some things and get a better understanding, and decide whats my best next step, i think it's worth learning about it early on now.





PillarofBalance said:


> Testosterone isn't a stimulant and will not provide you energy. You also don't have blood work showing low test that I am aware of. Correct me if I am wrong. Wait for your blood work to come back. Until it does there isn't really much of a reason for You to be examining AAS imo.


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## dk8594 (May 26, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> I'm doing my best not to get ahead of myself, yeah, i want to see my levels. I'm doing bloodwork soon. Then if I'm possibly low, I'm going to try going to a clinic. That's why I'm looking for one.
> 
> But I'll be lying to myself if i said that aside from wanting to feel better, i didn't want more! I'm also greedy i guess... dudes in their 20s are already shutting down their systems apparently starting too early to get gains, so i don't see why people think it's wrong if you're over 30 to use steroids to get quicker results and feel like Superman for whole if you can somehow manage to do it relatively safely... Is that so wrong?



Trt is therapy and seeks to get you back to normal. If you are looking to be Superman, that’s  not trt.


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## Jin (May 27, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> About the cream, i don't know i didn't find any good reviews so far (courtesy of Dr Rand on YouTube), it makes sense that if you can get professional grade testosterone why not inject it instead of using a creme...



Correct. If the cream is professional grade, you should inject it.


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## dk8594 (May 27, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> About the cream, i don't know i didn't find any good reviews so far (courtesy of Dr Rand on YouTube), it makes sense that if you can get professional grade testosterone why not inject it instead of using a creme...



The analogy I use is that the cream is like someone offering you a Toyota Camry and injections are like winning a Lexus.

A Camry still gets you where you want to go and is a hell of a lot better than riding the bus.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 27, 2018)

Guys thanks for the different perspectives i truly appreciate it. I am slowing down my thoughts thanks to you guys, i felt like my thoughts were racing the past week just looking for a quick fix. I'll wait for my bloodwork results and try not to jump to conclusions as I'm prone to doing that sometimes..

I'm reading in the meantime and i get it that my diet and lifestyle are not where they should be yet. So  I'm looking at first fixing my diet and lifestyle further and wait on the blood test results before making any uninformed decisions.


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## Viduus (May 27, 2018)

Awesome to hear, good luck!


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 29, 2018)

Hey guys, got my results, all i got is 11 nmol/L, my understanding is that I'm within the normal range, that's sitting closer to edge of low test, the normal range being 8.5-29 according to this lab report. That's all the data i got. Any opinions?


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## Jin (May 29, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> Hey guys, got my results, all i got is 11 nmol/L, my understanding is that I'm within the normal range, that's sitting closer to edge of low test, the normal range being 8.5-29 according to this lab report. That's all the data i got. Any opinions?



If you have low t symptoms that are affecting your life negatively then investigate further. 

If you don't then you do not need trt.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 29, 2018)

I definitely do, i feel just low and down, sexually I'm not getting like it as i normally do and can't keep it up the same way, sleep quality is reduced and i get up feeling tired...

I wouldn't know though if it is low t i guess or other things, but so far I've looked into other potential issues with my doctor so that is something i have not explored.

If i went to a trt clinic and do other tests which come back similar, would a doctor generally treat it with trt or though other means? (Recommending lifestyle changes and no script) anyone had a similar experience seeking trt with low normal t?

And are all doctors endocrinologists in trt clinics or not necessarily? If not, is it better to seek an endocrinologist?


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## Jin (May 29, 2018)

There are a lot of conditions that mimic the symptoms of low t. Considering you are well into the normal range, I would work with a doctor to rule out other (more probable) conditions and if they are Negative then continue to explore testosterone as the culprit. 

I had low low normal levels of testosterone but severe symptoms. You don't seem to be suffering to that same degree.

Good luck.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 29, 2018)

Thanks Jin, may I ask you what your symptoms looked like back then?


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## Jin (May 29, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> Thanks Jin, may I ask you what your symptoms looked like back then?



Zero sex drive: put the girl of my dreams in front of me naked; wouldn't have cared. 

Unstable emotionally: easily frustrated or upset. Angry. 

No zest for life. Life sucked and I didn't care about much. 

Difficult gaining muscle/losing fat. Even though training hard and decent diet. 

Difficulty concentrating. 

Those are are what I remember as being the worst. There were probably other secondary symptoms.


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## iwanthotcocoa (May 29, 2018)

Thanks for elaborating on your symptoms Jin, that helps me put things into perspective.

I will go to the doc to discuss the results and see what he says. We've ruled out other reasons so far the only thing he suggested was antidepressants which i declined.

I'm also thinking to just spend the money and go get a second opinion from a private clinic doc specializing in men's health and trt depending on what my doc days.


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## Jin (May 29, 2018)

Symptoms are more important than a test level score. IMO. 

So, if you've ruled out other potential conditions (then assuming its due to you being hypogonadal)and you feel like your symptoms are severe enough that you're willing to be "married to the needle" for life: go for it.

You mentioned energy levels. Those will only be helped if your sluggishness is due to low T. You stated it's due to medication. 

Being hypogonadal i wasnt able to raise my test levels through nutrition and exercise. It's my belief that guys who just have lower t but who aren't hypogonadal can raise their t levels with diet, exercise and supplementation. 

I tried everything before I went on test. Nothing else worked.


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## bplebo75 (May 29, 2018)

iwanthotcocoa said:


> Hey guys, got my results, all i got is 11 nmol/L, my understanding is that I'm within the normal range, that's sitting closer to edge of low test, the normal range being 8.5-29 according to this lab report. That's all the data i got. Any opinions?


   If you don't mind me asking what did they test on your labs.  He should take a look at your sex hormone levels, thyroid function, adrenal health, and information on your hematocrit (red blood cell volume), and liver and kidney function. The panel includes the following tests: Complete Blood Count (CBC), Complete Metabolic Panel (CMP-14), Lipid Panel, Testosterone free and total, Estradiol Sensitive, DHEA-Sulfate, Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH), Prostate Specific Antigen (PSA), and Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG).

   Lot of good advice on here. I was 34 when I was put on Trt, due to not being educated and wanting to be the "Big Buff Guy". I'll share a personal story just so you don't make the mistake I made. I started pro hormones because the love of my life after 16 yrs left me for another dude. I used steriods for self confidence and thought if I was Big Buff Guy, I would have no problems getting chicks. I had never been single before, also I had a 4 yr old son. To get to my point, if you don't need it don't do it. Your hormones are very important,  you don't want to mess with that.   

  Hope you get it figured out cause it really does suck to be all out of whack , and not know what the problem is. I promise that it won't happen fast. It takes a lot of lab work for your doctor to get your levels like they should be. I would suggest going to a encrendoligst , then going to a urologist.  The  urologists have a couple of test they can do to check for blood flow and make sure you are functioning properly in your man region. Do some research on those procedures and  be patience.


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