# First cycle discussion for 26yo -- I need experienced opinions!



## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

I'm 26yo 6'0" 215 lbs, approx 10-11% bf depending on the reading.
I really feel like I have hit my max potential (of course small gains could still be produced over years). I have been lifting 13 years recreationally, very serious lifting the last 6 years.
1RM -- ***(I do not kill myself on 1RM, the values could be higher but I'm big on injury prevention -- I'm a rec lifter).
Squat 505/ Deadlift 525/ Bench 355 / Military press 225 -- Currently, I could comfortably max on 405 squat, 455 DL, and 325 bench (I'm usually weighing about 225 when I can comfortably squat 505).


I'm ready to break some barriers, I have read a lot, but I just can't decide what to do and I'd like some input from experienced users. 

I did one Ostarine/S4 cycle 2 years ago with awesome results.

Everyone says Pin over PH/DS....but it seems the more I read most people started with legal compounds. Here are the things I'm dwelling on:

1) Should I do a moderate cycle this summer before AAS, to get my feet wet? Either a Sarms Stack w/ transdermal test base, or a non-methyl ph, or a methylated ph w/ transdermal test base?


2) Should I only focus on AAS -- and do it this fall/winter? (fall/winter b/c I will be bulking hard -- and I want my time in the gym maximized when I'm 'on' -- I'm less busy in the fall/winter)

3) My options are: 
***Test C @ 500mg e/d 12 weeks (HcGenerate will be used on cycle, as I can get my hands on EVERYTHING I need except real HcG).

***Sarm Stack -- Ostarine @ 25mg ed, S4 @ 75mg ed, GW @ 50mg ed -- 8 weeks w/ transdermal test base

***Non methyl ph w/ transdermal test base, or non methyl ph w/ transdermal test base. *methyl ph I will take something relatively mild like hdrol or epi

PCTs are solid (in my opinion) and can be discussed later when the time comes. My diet will be above caloric maintenance. If I choose a methyl PH or AAS to cycle I will bulk and my calories will be well above maintenance. 

I realize PHs are stupid...but I'm looking for opinions here. Everyone has to start somewhere. I will blast myself with liver support, and use the transdermal test base on cycle -- This is not an ideal cycle but I feel like it's relatively safe as I do not drink and I in excellent health (I understand AAS is the best choice).

Input is welcome guys! Thank you!!!! I'm going to be much more active on the forum not that I'm ready to run something!


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## DreamChaser (May 29, 2014)

Go with the 500mgs cyp but would do longer than 12 weeks


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## jennerrator (May 29, 2014)

Looks like you have done some research, sure guys will be along soon...welcome


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## DreamChaser (May 29, 2014)

Also I would set up you pct 1st before you cycle I'm not a pct type person and have never came off since my 1st injection but it's always wise to set up your get everything b4 the actual gear


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

DreamChaser said:


> Go with the 500mgs cyp but would do longer than 12 weeks



Thanks dream, I'm really leaning toward Test C or hdrol/transaderm this fall/winter. I understand all the differences...just searching for opinions.



Jenner said:


> Looks like you have done some research, sure guys will be along soon...welcome



Thanks : )



DreamChaser said:


> Also I would set up you pct 1st before you cycle I'm not a pct type person and have never came off since my 1st injection but it's always wise to set up your get everything b4 the actual gear



Thanks Dream, All the PCTs are set up. I just haven't discussed them yet. I'm def not rushing into this and I'll have everything laid out perfect before beginning. Gear, PCT, Diet, Training.

I've been doing this so long I'm not one to monitor diet/training -- but that is something I'll change when I'm on. (I can remember all my lifting values from the week prior, and my diet is 100% on point).


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

And the only reason I would ever consider a methylated ph w/ 8 weeks of transdermal test base (frontload 2 weeks on the 6week oral) -- would be to get my feet wet before AAS. This type of cycle would only happen one time before AAS.

Would 8 weeks of transdermal test base + Oral Turnibol (helladrol) be near as suppressive as 500mg of test C?? (12 weeks - maybe more - I'd like to stick at 12 weeks as of right now).



Would suppression of hpta be similar in both proposed cycles?


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## DreamChaser (May 29, 2014)

Ryand said:


> Thanks dream, I'm really leaning toward Test C or hdrol/transaderm this fall/winter. I understand all the differences...just searching for opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Personally if u want to get ur feet wet with designers I'd go with epi but hdrol would be a good choice as well some ppl here hate on designers and epi but i love them couldn't imagine life without SD,epi and m1t


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

DreamChaser said:


> Personally if u want to get ur feet wet with designers I'd go with epi but hdrol would be a good choice as well some ppl here hate on designers and epi but i love them couldn't imagine life without SD,epi and m1t



I don't think I'd even touch SD if I used it as a kicker on a test cycle in the future lol. Seems like an organ bomb, effective but still an organ bomb.

Appreciate your feedback man!


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

No. ProH are shit.
If you want to get your feet wet, 500-750mg test c or test e (they're almost identical).
12 to 16 weeks long. Pin every 3.5 days. So 250mg Mon morning and 250mg Thurs night.
If you can you can use an oral to kickstart the cycle. Dbol or tbol are fine. I like tbol because there's little to no estrogen conversion so no crazy water retention. I'll get shit for that statement lol
Tbol at around 80mg for the first 6 weeks of the cycle.

Ai- I use adex. You can start with .25mg every other day. And adjust accordingly. My sweet spot is .4mg eod.

Pct should be a nolva and clomid combo. Started 14 to 21 day after your last injection if using test E or C.
Nolva 40mg/day for the first 2 weeks of pct and 20mg/day for the last.
Clomid at 75mg/day the first 2 weeks and 50mg/day the last 2 weeks of pct.

HCG is not a requirement. ..more of a precaution. Makes recovery easier. If you can get it. Pin 250iu the same time you pin your gear. So 500iu/week.

Liver sups either NAC or NAC & ALA.
I just use NAC at 1400mg/day throughout the entire cycle.

Hope this helps.
Best of luck.

Btw...I'm on my first cycle now and loving it


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

Thanks Frank, very helpful I appreciate the feedback.

What is the main reason you think one cycle of hdrol would be shit? The stress on the body isn't worth the results? More expensive? Just shitty compounds all around?


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

Ryand said:


> Thanks Frank, very helpful I appreciate the feedback.
> 
> What is the main reason you think one cycle of hdrol would be shit? The stress on the body isn't worth the results? More expensive? Just shitty compounds all around?



Running a PH is basically running an oral steroid without Testosterone as a base. I've done oral cycles before. No oral cycle can compare to a true cycle. Your a man. Test makes you a man. Why take that away? You're messing with your natty test production for a little PH? Not worth in...my opinion from personal experience.


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> Running a PH is basically running an oral steroid without Testosterone as a base. I've done oral cycles before. No oral cycle can compare to a true cycle. Your a man. Test makes you a man. Why take that away?



I would be using a transdermal DHEA as a test base plus a few other supports. I would never run anything without some form of test base -- but like I said, I'm new and looking for ideas!

This proposed cycle would be simply to get me out of my 'natural' state. But maybe I should go strait to AAS. I'm weighing the options.


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## Get Some (May 29, 2014)

Most people you will talk to will tell you that an oral only cycle of 4-6 weeks is absolute shit and that you need to "pin to win"... While pinning is the best way to maintain long term gains and achieve your goals, a 4+ week cycle of a drug like dbol would certainly be beneficial and give you a good idea of what AAS are all about. Personally, I would rather see you run a real oral instead of a PH so you can learn to deal with any issues you may have from an aromatizing drug. Start with a moderate dose and increase it if you really feel you need to. Depending on the concentration of the tab/cap/liquid you get, I would run 30-40mg daily for 5 weeks and see how that treats you. Running nolvadex alongside is fine or you can wait to see if you have gyno symptoms before taking it. 

ORAL ONLY CYCLES ARE NOT BAD!!! They become bad when all you ever do is oral only cycles. Start with that and then plan an injectable cycle for a little down the road


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

PH pretty much are steroids...they're more dangerous in my opinion because you really don't know wtf you're taking.
Transdermal isn't going to give you as accurate dosages. Injections are the way to go.
Again my opinion but I know a lot of guys on hormone replacement and they threw their transderm shit away and got a vial.


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

Get Some said:


> Most people you will talk to will tell you that an oral only cycle of 4-6 weeks is absolute shit and that you need to "pin to win"... While pinning is the best way to maintain long term gains and achieve your goals, a 4+ week cycle of a drug like dbol would certainly be beneficial and give you a good idea of what AAS are all about. Personally, I would rather see you run a real oral instead of a PH so you can learn to deal with any issues you may have from an aromatizing drug. Start with a moderate dose and increase it if you really feel you need to. Depending on the concentration of the tab/cap/liquid you get, I would run 30-40mg daily for 5 weeks and see how that treats you. Running nolvadex alongside is fine or you can wait to see if you have gyno symptoms before taking it.
> 
> ORAL ONLY CYCLES ARE NOT BAD!!! They become bad when all you ever do is oral only cycles. Start with that and then plan an injectable cycle for a little down the road



I don't disagree. I was told oral only is bullshit. I've ran 2 anavar only cycles and got good results and kept my gains. I still ran a month of clomid just because as well.
Too long on an oral is bad. On week 4 through 6 I started getting really run down (low test).
And YES. Oral AAS I find much safer than PH. I've never ran a PH because you can't find any REAL scientific info on  the chemicals you're ingesting  from PHs.


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> I don't disagree. I was told oral only is bullshit. I've ran 2 anavar only cycles and got good results and kept my gains. I still ran a month of clomid just because as well.
> Too long on an oral is bad. On week 4 through 6 I started getting really run down (low test).
> And YES. Oral AAS I find much safer than PH. I've never ran a PH because you can't find any REAL scientific info on  the chemicals you're ingesting  from PHs.



That's why I was leaning toward epistane (steroid) rather than hdrol (ph).

but the decision between epistane cycle or AAS cycle is still up in the air.


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

Double post


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## ECKSRATED (May 29, 2014)

Just do some test for the summer. Then try some test and deca for your winter bulk. You'll ****ing love deca. Your a fairly strong guy so I'm interested to see how strong u get with some test and deca. I'd stay away from the ph's and transdermal test if u can.


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

Whatever you decide, just do your research. 
You seem to have already been reading up enough.
You should be fine with whatever route you choose. You seem like an intelligent individual
Just keep us posted


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Just do some test for the summer. Then try some test and deca for your winter bulk. You'll ****ing love deca. Your a fairly strong guy so I'm interested to see how strong u get with some test and deca. I'd stay away from the ph's and transdermal test if u can.



You sure are a deca whore aren't ya brother? Lol


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> Just do some test for the summer. Then try some test and deca for your winter bulk. You'll ****ing love deca. Your a fairly strong guy so I'm interested to see how strong u get with some test and deca. I'd stay away from the ph's and transdermal test if u can.




Thanks man...yeah I'm excited to see what test can do for me. Pretty certain I'll turn into more of a god damn machine lol.

Is there a particular reason you say stay away from PH and transdermal test for a one time cycle? Just curious



f.r.a.n.k. said:


> Whatever you decide, just do your research.
> You seem to have already been reading up enough.
> You should be fine with whatever route you choose. You seem like an intelligent individual
> Just keep us posted




Will do man I appreciate the feedback. I'm sure I'll do a cycle log when the time comes.


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## DreamChaser (May 29, 2014)

Ryand said:


> That's why I was leaning toward epistane (steroid) rather than hdrol (ph).
> 
> but the decision between epistane cycle or AAS cycle is still up in the air.



Hdrol is a steroid as well I agree with PH being absolute shit but there are good designers out there which are aas.Ph are precursers to aas which is retarted thought and option.


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## DreamChaser (May 29, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> You sure are a deca whore aren't ya brother? Lol



Whats wrong with deca whores?


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

DreamChaser said:


> Whats wrong with deca whores?



Lol nothing if you are a TRT guy
I'll be a deca where in the future!


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 29, 2014)

Ryand said:


> Thanks man...yeah I'm excited to see what test can do for me. Pretty certain I'll turn into more of a god damn machine lol.
> 
> Is there a particular reason you say stay away from PH and transdermal test for a one time cycle? Just curious
> 
> ...



Transderm test is inaccurate. As I said before everyone I know that's on TRT and tried transderm, threw it away and demanded injections.


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## Ryand (May 29, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> Transderm test is inaccurate. As I said before everyone I know that's on TRT and tried transderm, threw it away and demanded injections.



got ya.

I feel kind of uneasy with the transdermals around my girlfriend also lol.


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## Iron1 (May 29, 2014)

Ryand said:


> got ya.
> 
> I feel kind of uneasy with the transdermals around my girlfriend also lol.



That's a very valid concern when one is considering transdermal TRT.
I for one got out of transdermals for that very reason.


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## ECKSRATED (May 29, 2014)

Yes I'ma whore . Not just a deca whore. Lol 

and I say stay away from transdermal test because my buddy was prescribed that shit and took him over a year to get his levels right. It's very inaccurate like the others said. In the end it's up to you but 99 percent of the guys here will recommend staying away from the ph's.


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## TheLupinator (May 30, 2014)

If you can get real AAS then this isn't much of a debate. 14 weeks of test is a great cycle, you can start low, 350mg/week, get your AI dosage dialed in, then double your test (and AI) at week 6.


Like the guys have said, if you have access to legit orals than I'd throw that in the first 4 weeks over any legal hormones... Epi at the end of the cycle, while the test is clearing, is about the extent to which they would be a decent option, just bc real var is expensive as fucck.


Also HCG is very very easy to get and extremely effective


Btw bro, you use to be on Ology a while back, right? name sounds familiar


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## Ryand (May 30, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> If you can get real AAS then this isn't much of a debate. 14 weeks of test is a great cycle, you can start low, 350mg/week, get your AI dosage dialed in, then double your test (and AI) at week 6.
> 
> 
> Like the guys have said, if you have access to legit orals than I'd throw that in the first 4 weeks over any legal hormones... Epi at the end of the cycle, while the test is clearing, is about the extent to which they would be a decent option, just bc real var is expensive as fucck.
> ...



I was on ology like two years ago (which is how I was invited to this site before it changed from SI) -- I've just been dormant, reading mostly.

I have access to basically anything except HcG. AFter discussing things with my potential guy (He's a pro powerlifter) -- I am convinced I'm going to start with test.

I'm going to do a test cycle within the next few months. I can get dbol, var, abombs, epi, (and maybe pharma grade halo).


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## Ryand (May 30, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> If you can get real AAS then this isn't much of a debate. 14 weeks of test is a great cycle, you can start low, 350mg/week, get your AI dosage dialed in, then double your test (and AI) at week 6.
> 
> 
> Like the guys have said, if you have access to legit orals than I'd throw that in the first 4 weeks over any legal hormones... Epi at the end of the cycle, while the test is clearing, is about the extent to which they would be a decent option, just bc real var is expensive as fucck.
> ...



Appreciate your feedback bro... two big questions I have with a first cycle of test E or C:

1) Do you highly suggest running test the first time for 14 weeks? Almost everything I've read suggests 12 weeks to start. 

2) Should I throw orals in the first cycle? Or just stick with test?

Thanks man


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## DreamChaser (May 30, 2014)

Ryand said:


> Appreciate your feedback bro... two big questions I have with a first cycle of test E or C:
> 
> 1) Do you highly suggest running test the first time for 14 weeks? Almost everything I've read suggests 12 weeks to start.
> 
> ...



This is just my opinion and personal thought I'd run 500mgs test c with 20mgs dbol 12-16 weeks.


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 30, 2014)

DreamChaser said:


> This is just my opinion and personal thought I'd run 500mgs test c with 20mgs dbol 12-16 weeks.



The dbol just the first 4 to 6 weeks lol


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## DreamChaser (May 30, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> The dbol just the first 4 to 6 weeks lol



Yeah lol forgot to put that


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## TheLupinator (May 31, 2014)

Ya the oral is up to you, not needed, but Dbol is Dbol and everyone who's tried it loves it

The duration is again your choice - 600 test for 12wks is great - But I know if I redid my first cycle I would've started much lower to get my AI dosage dialed in. But low test (200 - 350) is better suited for running longer than 16wks (think TRT) and I wouldn't suggest that duration the first go... that's why I suggested start low, then bump it. You would be putting those 14weeks to good use.


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## Canadian muscle (May 31, 2014)

my best advice for first cycle is the K.I.F.S. protocol.

Keep 
It 
****ing
Simple

500-600mg of total testosterone per week. Preferably long ester divided into at least 2 shots
0.5 mg of arimidex eod IF NEEDED (you most likely wont need it)

pct clomid. HCG if needed.

keep it simple and JUST DO IT

over thinking it always makes problems arise just from the paranoia.


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## Ryand (May 31, 2014)

Canadian muscle said:


> my best advice for first cycle is the K.I.F.S. protocol.
> 
> Keep
> It
> ...




lmao thanks man. 

I really just over-analyze things. I always end up making a decision...usually doesn't lead to paranoia haha


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## Ryand (May 31, 2014)

I'd like to get the hormones dialed in first...I'll discuss support supps later. I'm trying to get a hold of hCG to run on cycle (I may use that HcGenerate product as a last resort) But this is what I'm looking at so far:

Week 1-14 500mg Test cyp (250mg e/3d)
Weeks 1-14 Aromasin 12.5-25mg EVERYDAY 

PCT- 
Nolvadex 40/40/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50


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## Ryand (Jun 18, 2016)

I got older, got wiser, haven't cycled anything since my last post.

Got my gear, I'm 28yo now. I will start a new thread. I have been lurking around and I am really glad this forum is really active. One of the best I have ran across.


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