# Testosterone Dosage



## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

This isn't going to be a standard joli rant, but I thought that maybe we should rethink some of the recommendations we make to beginners based on some obscure article I found after I got caught in a pornado.

The usual recommendation for a beginner is stated to be 500mgs of test (with a long ester).  This paper discusses the types of differentiated muscular hypertrophy.  I won't make you read the article but do read this:

_Important mechanisms behind the strong myotrophic effects of testosterone were first uncovered in a population of high-level powerlifters who reported the use of testosterone (100–500 mg week−1) for a period of 9±3.3 years (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000). Long-term administration of testosterone accentuates the degree of fibre hypertrophy in already well-trained powerlifters (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000). Testosterone induces the hypertrophy of both type I and type II muscle fibres. Type II muscle fibres are the largest muscle fibres in powerlifters both in steroid users and non-users. However, there is evidence suggesting that the largest difference in muscle fibre size between steroid users and non-users is observed in slow type I muscle fibres (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000; Eriksson et al., 2005). In the trapezius muscle of steroid users, the area of type I muscle fibres is 58% larger than in non-users, whereas the area of type II muscle fibres is 33% larger than in non-users (Kadi et al., 1999). The same tendency is observed in the vastus lateralis (Eriksson et al., 2005). Accordingly, it has been shown that type I muscle fibres are more sensitive to anabolic agents than type II muscle fibres (Hartgens et al., 1996). Subsequently, it has been shown that the administration of 300 and 600 mg testosterone induced an increase in the area of type I muscle fibres, whereas type II muscle fibres enlarge only after administration of 600 mg testosterone (Sinha-Hikim et al., 2002)._

Most people think I am a nut because of my dosing protocols, but the dose dependent nature of testosterone can be seen easily in our experiences and on paper.  

I often tell new guys that a beginner dose should be in the 750mg range.  It isnt as large of a dose as it seems and it does cross a threshold of efficacy that I think that anyone would want to include in their first cycle--hypertrophy of type I and II muscle fibers.  

I think that most guys that begin with a 500mg dose of test tend to walk away thinking "test sucks...I want tren."  But in reality, they haven't tapped one of the most effective hormones available.  

A bit of food for thought before we give a novice advice..


The full paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439525/


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## DreamChaser (May 24, 2014)

Good read but I still like tren lol


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Type II muscle fibers. Maybe if you're a powerlifter which are the subjects who were used in this study. For a bodybuilder or someone who will engage more of your type I fibers , 500 mg as a start will be plenty  to induce muscle Hypertrophy. That's pretty much what the article is saying anyway. It also appears that the study used well trained powerlifters which are far from being novices.


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## ken Sass (May 24, 2014)

interesting read


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

What is a b-bod-bodybuilding?


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Also the idea of telling a 1st timer and beginner to start with higher dosages doesn't seem to sit right. Advising someone to jump right into deep waters not knowing first hand how sides can affect them with higher dosages is bad judgement. IMO. 

I've seen many  1st timers make great gains with the standard 500 mg per week.


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Also the idea of telling a 1st timer and beginner to start with higher dosages doesn't seem to sit right. Advising someone to jump right into deep waters not knowing first hand how sides can affect them with higher dosages is bad judgement. IMO



Consider that 500mgs of test e is actually 360mgs of testosterone, that seems low to me.  If you are going to shut down, why not go for more than 3-4x your natural level (young novice level anyway)?  Why is it that it is so easy to balk at higher levels of test but an oral kicker is customary and would be overlooked in a newbs cycle?


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

joliver said:


> Consider that 500mgs of test e is actually 360mgs of testosterone, that seems low to me.  If you are going to shut down, why not go for more than 3-4x your natural level (young novice level anyway)?  Why is it that it is so easy to balk at higher levels of test but an oral kicker is customary and would be overlooked in a newbs cycle?




It works and it's a good base to start with. It's been proven time and time again. So why use More?  I have advise  many a beginner in my personal life over years and I'll tell you this, their gains have been solid  and they weren't walking around looking like greasy over blown zitted balloons.


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## SuperBane (May 24, 2014)

I'm on the fence I'd like to hear from some people who started with a high dose of test only as a first cycle.

With pics of course.


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## RowdyBrad (May 24, 2014)

Sounds similar to the old ology post, 300 vs 600


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## DieYoungStrong (May 24, 2014)

I'm never running less then a g again on blast. 

500mg a week for a true noob cycle is fine. If he's a serious PLer he will be using a turkey baster for his blasts in no time anyways.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> I'm never running less then a g again on blast.
> 
> 500mg a week for a true noob cycle is fine. If he's a serious PLer he will be using a turkey baster for his blasts in no time anyways.



To be honest even if 500 mg is really 360 it is Still a huge jump beyond our normal natural production. For a 1st timer its plenty.


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## losieloos (May 24, 2014)

I run 500 mg of test snd im swole. Bs report.


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

losieloos said:


> I run 500 mg of test snd im swole. Bs report.



You only run 500mgs of test?  BS post.


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

If I thought this had no practical value, i wouldnt have posted it.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

joliver said:


> If I thought this had no practical value, i wouldnt have posted it.



I love you, Joli.


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## DF (May 24, 2014)

I've seen that study before.  It's a good read.  However, in my experience I made great gains on less than 400mg/week test.  Also the standard line is to see how you respond to the beginner 500mg dose.  On my first blast of 500mg my BP went extremely high.  I do recommend the standard 500mg to start.  There is nothing wrong IMO adjusting that dose during the cycle or using an oral.


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## NbleSavage (May 24, 2014)

Very interesting read. I can appreciate a sense of reluctance to advise a 1st timer to go above the typical suggested protocol, but differentiating between BB and PL holds less sway with me. As a BB, both Type 1 and Type 2 fibers come into play, and most 1st timers have yet to really "commit" to being a PL or a BB: most just want to "get huge". 

I personally run 500 Mgs Test & have blasted with as high as 800 Mg with good results in both cases. 

Not sure I could find peace of mind telling a complete 1st timer to run north of 500 Mgs though.


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## Maintenance Man (May 24, 2014)

I thot I had read that the average male produces somewhere between 70-100mgs of testosterone per week naturally. Maybe a seasoned athlete is on the high end spectrum at 125-150mgs per week. 

In this way of thinking, one would assume better gains for a lower dosage protocol on a novice user buuuut...everyone is different. I believe it should start at the norm and be pushed up/down accordingly throughout the cycle. If a novice hasnt responded from 10-12 weeks at 500, its too late to got up 750 and make up for that lost time. It should be assessed early on to make most use of your cycle. Its a ll a guessing game w/o hundreds upon thousands of dollars spent on bloods.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Maintenance Man said:


> I thot I had read that the average male produces somewhere between 70-100mgs of testosterone per week naturally. Maybe a seasoned athlete is on the high end spectrum at 125-150mgs per week.
> 
> In this way of thinking, one would assume better gains for a lower dosage protocol on a novice user buuuut...everyone is different. I believe it should start at the norm and be pushed up/down accordingly throughout the cycle. If a novice hasnt responded from 10-12 weeks at 500, its too late to got up 750 and make up for that lost time. It should be assessed early on to make most use of your cycle. Its a ll a guessing game w/o hundreds upon thousands of dollars spent on bloods.



If a novice doesn't make sufficient  gains at 500 mg of testosterone a week then he's using junk gear, or he has no clue regarding training and diet.


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## Maintenance Man (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> If a novice doesn't make sufficient  gains at 500 mg of testosterone a week then he's using junk gear, or he has no clue regarding training and diet.



What if this novice is just a naturally big summma bitch with naturally high test?


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Maintenance Man said:


> What if this novice is just a naturally big summma bitch with naturally high test?



Put that fuker on 150 mg of anadrol and some tren and send him on his way


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## Maintenance Man (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Put that fuker on 150 mg of anadrol and some tren and send him on his way



I can get down with that LOL


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## Canadian muscle (May 24, 2014)

A beginners receptors are soo clean the most likely would not need more than 600mg of test/week


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 24, 2014)

Jol, I'm assuming the 300mg vs 600mg of testosterone doses studied here refer to total amount including ester and not just actual testosterone correct? Either way I would tend to agree with your assessment and my first cycle I actually did 625mg a week of test enanthate. 

The average male will produce between 2.5-11mg of testosterone daily or 17.5-77mg of testosterone weekly and that's without any esters to complicate matters. A 500mg dose of test e, 350-360mg of actual test, is about 4.5x the top end of that endogenous range. I'm not saying progress cannot be made at a 500mg weekly dose. It most certainly can. But as you point out, why not go for that little bit extra especially when considering hypertrophy of type II muscle fibers is significantly stimulated at a 600mg weekly dose which isn't much more than 500mg. I'd like to see a comparison of how much more type II fiber stimulation occurred at 600mg vs say 500mg and which type II fiber was stimulated whether fast oxidative or fast glycolotic or both. 

I also consider how so many newer guys want an oral or a second compound on their first cycle when testosterone is one of the safer compounds used even when used at higher dosages. Certain orals will trash your liver and lipids, tren can wreck both, nandrolone is suppressive as a mofo, EQ has the polycythemia issue if not handled, etc. Good 'ole test is much safer than these on a mg by mg basis IMO.

Another issue I think is that many BB'ers don't realize the importance of stimulating growth in type II fibers. They believe since type I fibers are the ones that increase sarcoplasmic hypertrophy that only they should be trained. What's forgotten is that strength, power, etc developed at higher speeds (dynamic work, Oly lifts, speed work, etc) trickles down to slower speeds but slow lifting does nothing for fast lifting at slower speeds and higher reps. It's a one way street. 

Finally it also depends on the person's goals and readiness. Someone wanting to run a cutting cycle I wouldn't think would need that much but someone getting ready for a meet for instance would make much better use of it. Interesting read nonetheless.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 24, 2014)

Canadian muscle said:


> A beginners receptors are soo clean the most likely would not need more than 600mg of test/week



The same goes for an experienced AAS user....


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Ok doc you and your analogies sometimes. Really? Lets just forget what has actually worked and safely benefited thousands of users of the last 30 years. Let's just start telling beginners more is better. I won't but you can.


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Jol, I'm assuming the 300mg vs 600mg of testosterone doses studied here refer to total amount including ester and not just actual testosterone correct? Either way I would tend to agree with your assessment and my first cycle I actually did 625mg a week of test enanthate.
> 
> The average male will produce between 2.5-11mg of testosterone daily or 17.5-77mg of testosterone weekly and that's without any esters to complicate matters. A 500mg dose of test e, 350-360mg of actual test, is about 4.5x the top end of that endogenous range. I'm not saying progress cannot be made at a 500mg weekly dose. It most certainly can. But as you point out, why not go for that little bit extra especially when considering hypertrophy of type II muscle fibers is significantly stimulated at a 600mg weekly dose which isn't much more than 500mg. I'd like to see a comparison of how much more type II fiber stimulation occurred at 600mg vs say 500mg and which type II fiber was stimulated whether fast oxidative or fast glycolotic or both.
> 
> ...



Excellent answer Doc.  As usual....  Risk vs. Reward.  You do not risk much more with an increased dose, and the reward is dose dependent. 

The study was performed with test-e.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Ok doc you and your analogies sometimes. Really? Lets just forget what has actually worked and safely benefited thousands of users of the last 30 years. Let's just start telling beginners more is better. I won't but you can.



I think all Joli is asking is to think this over. I doubt he's demanding you to change your recommendations Seek. Just think about it and if you don't change your mind that's fine. I just want to point out I also said it depends on the goals and readiness of the individual. Someone with 7yrs of serious training vs someone with 2yrs of bro splits etc. There's a big difference in the readiness and needs of each individual. 

Having said that, more most certainly is better. If it weren't what we produced endogenously would be plenty and we'd never need to cycle at all or add in multiple compounds, use higher dosages...


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## Joliver (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Ok doc you and your analogies sometimes. Really? Lets just forget what has actually worked and safely benefited thousands of users of the last 30 years. Let's just start telling beginners more is better. I won't but you can.



Hey Seeker!  You wanna fight!??  Huh!?!?  Jk....dont kill me.

Testosterone does set a bad precedent.  It simply is more effective at higher doses.  The risk is not that much higher.  

I have been the guy that was unimpressed with 500mgs of test.  It wasnt worth the PCT and all the shit that goes with it.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

I don't change my mind because I recommend what works from experience, not some fuked up science test on Already elite status powerlifters. You are referring to someone who has never used AAS before to just start using more. Sorry, not me.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Guys I've helped and seen in the past have easily put on 20-25 lbs of mass with their 1st cycle of 500 mgs of test, this  with proper training and calorie consumption over a 12-14 week period. What that's not enough? Wtf is the point of adding more? Where's is that gonna get them? Just more money to burn. But hey I guess more is better the 1st time around. Fuking useless is what I say.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 24, 2014)

The actual difference between the typical 500mg cycle vs a 600mg cycle is about 70mg of actual test. The other 30mg would be the mass of the ester. My experience with a 625mg first cycle was great: no BP issues, E2 was managed fine, blood was donated to prevent high RBC, PCT went smoothly and I gained strength throughout it, etc. This study just simply confirms my personal experience. But fair enough, I'm not asking you to change your advice brother. Much love <3


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> The actual difference between the typical 500mg cycle vs a 600mg cycle is about 70mg of actual test. The other 30mg would be the mass of the ester. My experience with a 625mg first cycle was great: no BP issues, E2 was managed fine, blood was donated to prevent high RBC, PCT went smoothly and I gained strength throughout it, etc. This study just simply confirms my personal experience. But fair enough, I'm not asking you to change your advice brother. Much love <3



The study was based on 600 mg of test with experienced powerlifters who are most likely gear heads already. The argument here is about recommending even higher dosages to beginners. That's the impression I got.


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## JAXNY (May 24, 2014)

SuperBane said:


> I'm on the fence I'd like to hear from some people who started with a high dose of test only as a first cycle.
> 
> With pics of course.



I gota tell us guys. Back in the late 80's when I started. We didn't have this high mg AAS. Deca was at 50mg test was 100mg. Sustanon 250 was the highest I recall. My first cycle I made huge gains on low mg dosages. I can not recall exactly. F that was a long time ago. But it was well below 500mg. 
Some times this scientific shit makes my head spin. 
Don't get me wrong. These days I hit a gram of test a week. But I can not say low dosages are not effective enough. And actually I know many guys who swear by low dosages and say higher dosages are a waste. 
I think these days there are so many different sources contradicting each other that one just has to experiment for himself and discover what works well. 
Interesting read though Joliver.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I gota tell us guys. Back in the late 80's when I started. We didn't have this high mg AAS. Deca was at 50mg test was 100mg. Sustanon 250 was the highest I recall. My first cycle I made huge gains on low mg dosages. I can not recall exactly. F that was a long time ago. But it was well below 500mg.
> Some times this scientific shit makes my head spin.
> Don't get me wrong. These days I hit a gram of test a week. But I can not say low dosages are not effective enough. And actually I know many guys who swear by low dosages and say higher dosages are a waste.
> I think these days there are so many different sources contradicting each other that one just has to experiment for himself and discover what works well.
> Interesting read though Joliver.



My 1st cycle back in 1979 I think? Was 200 mg of test a week. I put on 20 lbs of mass.


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## JAXNY (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> My 1st cycle back in 1979 I think? Was 200 mg of test a week. I put on 20 lbs of mass.



Yeah I gotta say seeker i believe that is about what I was hitting on my first cycle too. 2cc of 100mg of test. 
I made great gains. Then 2nd and 3rd cycles I started adding other compounds and orals. 
With this said imo. I am going to say recommending 500mg of test to beginners is way more than sufficient.  
Let the beginner begin at no more than 500 and let him experiment for him self by taking higher dosages 2nd cycle. He will never know the gains or effects of a low cycle if he never starts from one. No one usually ever does a cycle less than the dosage of their first cycle. 
750mg is too high of a recommendation for the beginner imo.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> My 1st cycle back in 1979 I think? Was 200 mg of test a week. I put on 20 lbs of mass.



1982 lol so damn long ago it's hard to remember.


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## JAXNY (May 24, 2014)

Seeker said:


> 1982 lol so damn long ago it's hard to remember.



I was gonna say. 1979 F how old are you seeker. Are you an AAS user or an AARP member Lol.


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## DocDePanda187123 (May 24, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I was gonna say. 1979 F how old are you seeker. Are you an AAS user or an AARP member Lol.



The dates work out somewhat. I think Seeker is my biological father....either that or at least my baby daddy.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I was gonna say. 1979 F how old are you seeker. Are you an AAS user or an AARP member Lol.



Hahaha damn man it's really hard for me to accept it  but I'll be 50 in two weeks. I was 18 when I did my 1st cycle. I had to drive a couple of miles to my older brothers friends house who would inject me once a week right in his living room.


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## DF (May 24, 2014)

When I began TRT my dose was 200mg/5days.  I was very happy with the results.  I do have before & after pics, but most of you homos have seen them.


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## Seeker (May 24, 2014)

DF said:


> When I began TRT my dose was 200mg/5days.  I was very happy with the results.  I do have before & after pics, but most of you homos have seen them.



You sexy bastard!


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## ECKSRATED (May 25, 2014)

All comes down to what your goals are. I've always been conservative with recommending dosages for friends and for myself. I tell beginners to start with 400 test because i know they could make quality gains from it as I have in the past. 

But back to what jol was talking about, training styles have a huge affect on which muscle fibers are hit and that's why one should always train for strength with low reps and hypertrophy with higher reps. Always worked for me. Still is right now and I'm on 175 mgs a week and look better than I ever did on higher dosages of test and other compounds. Training style is key.


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## Seeker (May 25, 2014)

I'm sorry doc and jol if I got heated. You guys are my brothers.


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## JAXNY (May 25, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Hahaha damn man it's really hard for me to accept it  but I'll be 50 in two weeks. I was 18 when I did my 1st cycle. I had to drive a couple of miles to my older brothers friends house who would inject me once a week right in his living room.



Hey 50 maybe. But I bet you're one Damn fit 50 year old that'll stomp the shit out of most 30 year olds in the gym. They way I see it seeker. Age is really just a number. Your physical condition is your true age indicator. If and I say if..I were to admit it, I'd only be weeks apart from you lol. 
But I'm one of the fittest f ckers in the gym. And I intend on staying that way. 
Its when we stop,being physically active is when age starts beating you down. And I love to kick ages ass everyday.  Don't feel bad brother feel fortunate you're still in the gym.


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## DF (May 25, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Hahaha damn man it's really hard for me to accept it  but I'll be 50 in two weeks. I was 18 when I did my 1st cycle. I had to drive a couple of miles to my older brothers friends house who would inject me once a week right in his living room.



Ah, well at least I have a few years to catch up to your jacked up ass.


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## Joliver (May 25, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I'm sorry doc and jol if I got heated. You guys are my brothers.



No sorry required here Seeker.  I think I can speak for Doc and myself when I say that a thought provoking thread that inspires heated, but intelligent conversation is better than sitting on our hands chasing that jackass GK out of the chat. 

This was and hopefully will continue to be lively for a while.  I got 4 pages in a few hours...a new joli record.  Only the BB's Bitches thread has beaten this.....

Man, I can't stand GK.


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## stonetag (May 25, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I was gonna say. 1979 F how old are you seeker. Are you an AAS user or an AARP member Lol.


Hey, what is wrong with AARP? I'm a proud member, if I can just remember where the office is.
1984 first blast, low test, high muscle gains, also had dbol. Back before these gol durn computer contraptions.    lol


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## Dtownry (May 25, 2014)

Joli great article. Don't bang your head against the wall with some of these guys who just want to be big and about as strong as my sister.


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## Seeker (May 25, 2014)

Dtownry said:


> Joli great article. Don't bang your head against the wall with some of these guys who just want to be big and about as strong as my sister.



Interesting comment D. Being that this article and study has very little to do with strength and is more about Hypertrophy. Maybe you should go back and read it again?


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## SuperBane (May 25, 2014)

Lol seeker


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## TheLupinator (May 25, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Interesting comment D. Being that this article and study has very little to do with strength and is more about Hypertrophy. Maybe you should go back and read it again?




"The main focus is the description of the cellular and structural changes observed in human skeletal muscle in response to testosterone administration."


He highlighted type I and type II fibers... Type II muscle fibers are responsible for generating power


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## TheLupinator (May 25, 2014)

I always figured the 500mg dose was advised bc first cycles were Test-e (usually dosed at 250mg/ml) 1cc 2x/week - First cycle was made to be straight forward. If every lab was pumping out 200mg/ml or 300... I'd think the recommendation would still be 1cc 2x/week


That being said, gains should be made running 500/wk by 99.9% of any natural male who has his diet & training half way in check... but at the same time it's not like 600 is putting you at risk anymore than 500


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## Seeker (May 25, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> "The main focus is the description of the cellular and structural changes observed in human skeletal muscle in response to testosterone administration."
> 
> 
> He highlighted type I and type II fibers... Type II muscle fibers are responsible for generating power



The article's  main reference point is about creating "HYPERTROPHY" that's what we have been debating about throughout this whole thread. We wouldn't be having such a debate if we were talking about 500 or 600 mg for dosages. The debate is about recommending beginners to dosages of 750 mgs and higher!


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## TheLupinator (May 25, 2014)

I was explaining where DT was coming from. I'm not here to debate what specifically we are debating...... The study talks about both strength and mass:

*Testosterone, muscle strength and mass*
A main reason behind the popularity of testosterone among drug users is its effects on athletic performance and on muscle size. 

did you read the whole study?.. actually dont care

Joli was the one to suggest 750mg/wk..... is that the only dose were allowed to debate? bc lots of people talked about other dosages. It only seems logical that if the additinal benefit arises @ 600mg/wk to suggest that dose and no higher for a first time user


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## Seeker (May 25, 2014)

The debate is about what to recommend for beginners. Thats where it lead to anyway...not sure if that's what Joli wanted out of it but that's where it went.


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## Canadian muscle (May 25, 2014)

from personal experience I believe that the results are dose dependent. You can grow on 600mg for sure. when you up the dosage you get more growth. There is however a thresh hold with any drug. From personal experience more than 1000mg of test is kinda a waste. 1 gram or test per week is pretty standard stacked along with anabolics. 

More than that you hit the thresh hold of result vs side effects. Any more will just make you sick, tired, bloated, hungry, bald lol

More is not always better but there is a responsive curve to the dosages that works best for each drug.


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## Jayjay82 (May 25, 2014)

Well said Canadian 100% right with you on that


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## Seeker (May 25, 2014)

Canadian muscle said:


> from personal experience I believe that the results are dose dependent. You can grow on 600mg for sure. when you up the dosage you get more growth. There is however a thresh hold with any drug. From personal experience more than 1000mg of test is kinda a waste. 1 gram or test per week is pretty standard stacked along with anabolics.
> 
> More than that you hit the thresh hold of result vs side effects. Any more will just make you sick, tired, bloated, hungry, bald lol
> 
> ...



Omg The argument and debate here is about 1st time users !!!! This is what Joli is referring to. Recommended dosage for 1st time users! This is not about experienced users, intermediate users, 3rd cycle, 4th cycle, whatever! You gonna  suggest a 1st time AAS user start with 1000 mg of test, Canadian Muscle?  That's what the debate is about here!  I personally have done 1000 mg of tren, and have done test upwards of 800 mgs this Is not about me or you, or Joli, or any other experienced user here. It's about 1st TIMERS!!!


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## SFGiants (May 25, 2014)

Seeker said:


> Omg The argument and debate here is about 1st time users !!!! This is what Joli is referring to. Recommended dosage for 1st time users! This is not about experienced users, intermediate users, 3rd cycle, 4th cycle, whatever! You gonna  suggest a 1st time AAS user start with 1000 mg of test, Canadian Muscle?  That's what the debate is about here!  I personally have done 1000 mg of tren, and have done test upwards of 800 mgs this Is not about me or you, or Joli, or any other experienced user here. It's about 1st TIMERS!!!



I ran 500mg 1st time but at the end weeks upped the dosage, blood work much latter showed the while on 500mg I was running weak test.

Sucks for a 1st timer to run crap test.

500mg week for a 1st timer is standard protocol.


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## Joliver (May 25, 2014)

I suppose the end product of any thread is to put our own common knowledge, community experience, and scientific evidence together in a pot and see what shakes out.  It wasn't that long ago that the common knowledge of the day relegated HCG to a purely PCT compound.  Somehow, someway, some dude said....maybe if my balls never shrunk...and a star was born.  The most advanced anti-estrogen program when I began juicing was proviron and nolvadex---now you can crush your "Lab Rat's" E2 with a single dose of LEGAL RC letro.  Shit changes men (and women--of course).  Maybe this is an issue that needs revisiting, maybe it isnt.


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## don draco (May 25, 2014)

I'm an advocate of using the least amount of gear possible in the pursuit of your goals.  If you're making good, consistent progress, I don't see the point in upping the dose. However, I don't understand where this "500mg of test for your first cycle" came from.  It seems like an arbitrary number that has been parroted on the boards & has now become the general consensus for a first cycle testosterone dosage.  Perhaps it was created based on typical concentrations in testosterone vials ( ex. 250mg/cc ), making the dosing schedule easier & more understandable for those new to the game? Who knows.  But, if that's the case, then there is no logical basis for objecting to the proposition that a higher test dosage would be beneficial. 

I'd imagine that the main issue that people have with this is the potential sides associated with higher dosages of testosterone. But if potential side effects are the main issue, how can one even suggest 500 mg for a first cycle?  We all react differently to different hormones.  Some guys have some nasty E2 sides on as low as 250 mg test / wk despite using an AI, while other guys are perfectly fine running a gram or more.  So why, exactly, is 500 mg is the magic number if side effects are the main concern?  Shouldn't we be suggesting that they start at a cruise dose & slowly increase it as time progresses while simultaneously monitoring sides? I'm sure most of us will answer "no".. we all know that this is not practical.. as the goal is to elevate your testosterone to supraphysiological levels as quickly as possible to get the results rolling & minimize time "on" in order to promote one's chance of recovery.

All that aside, this paper is pretty interesting Jol.  But I'd be willing to argue that maybe even 600 mg isn't the magic number that this study portrays it to be..  

Why?  As we know, we all test differently on the same dosage of testosterone.  On 200 mg / wk, one guy may have serum levels of 1500+ ng/dL, while another will have 800 ng/dL.  The amount of testosterone available in your body will undoubtedly have an impact on your results.  And seeing the discrepancies in how our bodies individually process exogenous testosterone, I don't think we can assume that a certain dosage will ultimately lead to the results found in the study.   For some people 600 mgs will do it, for others it won't.  

I think the best advice we can give those new to the game is to start at X mgs, and to feel free to increase it as they see fit.  But what that "X" should be.. nobody can say for sure.


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## JAXNY (May 25, 2014)

Well like seeker and I have said we got great gains at 200mg. I don't see why that shouldn't be the starting point and then you could always increase mid cycle. Of course we were getting us pharm grade back then and potency was spot on. So hard to say with the ug gear.


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## TriniJuice (May 25, 2014)

My first cycle was all bunk gear and I got better gains off that than I did when I got real (underdosed) gear
Placebo effect/Focus/Dedication/Diet/Training/Scared I was gonna fuk myself up if I didn't follow all this to a T
My opinion, any amount of gear would be beneficial if 1st time using aas
IMO there is no right or wrong way to use/start aas just a smart and dumb one

Ex; 
Smart- starting of at 1g week but have pre-cycle bloods, a.i., pinz, pct gear, good diet, training experience

Dumb- starting at 500mg, good diet, pre-cycle bloods, no a.i, barely workout, constant questions on what you should do during cycle that you can't answer yourself, have access to everything you need but can't afford it, hard headed,  etc.

If you know enough of what your doing/getting into you should be able to start off with w/e componds you want but I'd still recommend a test only cycle. ..I could care less about the dosage as long as it's JUST TEST


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## DF (May 25, 2014)

Another issue would be expectations.  What is the first timer expecting out of the cycle?  If your expectations are way out of whack yes they can be disappointed.  Do they expect to gain 10, 20 or 30lbs?  On this cycle.  Many will say the first cycle is the best as far as gains.  I'm not so sure this is true 100% of the time.


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## SFGiants (May 25, 2014)

500mg of good test should have your levels through the roof.

I just saw people show bloods on good test testing over or around 1500 on just 250mg so 500mg is a great start.

A 1st timer needs to learn what it's going to do to their body then make changes from that.


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## hulksmash (May 25, 2014)

I never go below 1 gram of test weekly.

I've been on for well over a year at that dosage.

The REAL magic is at 2g/week..once $$ comes, going back to that.


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## hulksmash (May 25, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> 500mg of good test should have your levels through the roof.
> 
> I just saw people show bloods on good test testing over or around 1500 on just 250mg so 500mg is a great start.
> 
> I 1st timer need to learn what it's going to do to their body then make changes from that.



Totally agree.


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## GreatGunz (May 25, 2014)

Nice job!
 I'm old school with beginer dosing always recommended 500mg BUT now after read I'll pass on 600mg...... Good read!


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## Megatron28 (May 26, 2014)

Jolly:  just a question and a thought.

You started out by saying: 



> The usual recommendation for a beginner is stated to be 500mgs of test (with a long ester).



Is there any reason that you called out the long ester.  You never really came back to that part.  Although I should call out that I did not read the full study.

Also, I thought I would mention something you and I talked about briefly the other day.  This too is not common wisdom, but I think a Noob would be best served by running a SERM like Raloxifene or Tamoxifen (in addition to an AI of course) as an insurance policy against gyno.  Especially if upping the dose to 750mg/week of testosterone.  We all know that everyone aromatizes test differently and that starting AI dose before one can get blood work done is just a best guess.  Good to have some insurance in case one guesses wrong.  More experienced AAS users know how they respond so they may not need to take out an insurance policy.


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## Joliver (May 26, 2014)

Megatron28 said:


> Jolly:  just a question and a thought.
> 
> You started out by saying:
> 
> ...



I did say long esters. I should have said test e or c.  Those are the most common.  This study was performed with test e.  I think the long ester is to help new guys get through a cycle without pinning as many times as you would have to on an equal level of prop (or something comparable).

I am all for administration of a SERM throughout a cycle.  I feel like it does a couple of things for the user: First, it helps maintain a healthy blood lipid profile, second, it allows PLers who are sensitive to e2 to pay less attention to sides and allow their levels to rise and reap the strength benefits of estrogen.  Also, a strong SERM stops gyno symptoms almost immediately.  The strongest AI will only prevent additional aromatization, but allows circulating e2 to attach and perform its boobie-tacular function.  

Speaking for myself, it is easy to lose track of where your levels are currently.  I did on my last blast.  My stane crashed out of solution (which i didnt know), and i took a mega-dose (by drawing off the bottom) and bottomed out my e2.  I didnt know that because i assumed my massive doses of TNE had my estrogen running high.  I basically had to guess whether my E2 was high or low.  I decided to discontinue the AI and run the SERM as my only anti-e just in case I guessed wrong.  I started feeling better the following week and got back to my AI protocol.  Had I guessed wrong and i was high, I wouldnt have felt any better at the end of my experiment, but i wouldnt have a pair of juggs to show for it.  

A multi-pronged approach is more difficult to cock up anyway.  You cant go wrong having it on hand.


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## TheLupinator (May 26, 2014)

Megatron28 said:


> Jolly:  just a question and a thought.
> 
> You started out by saying:
> 
> ...



Nowadays with bunk AIs all over the place, a SERM wouldn't hurt. I've never gotten signs of gyno while running Ralox


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## Jayjay82 (May 26, 2014)

My first cycle was 500mgs of sustanon alone and I am not complaining if you know what you are doing when it comes to diet and lifting then you should not be disappointed with the results as a first time user but like someone else posted back then 500mgs of test was usually 500mgs of test now with all uglabs you never know what the exact dose is unless you have an extremely reputable source like a doc or you made it yourself


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## Kelly (May 26, 2014)

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents worth in. I would like to think that no youngster under 25 would do roids.  But, if they are lurking on sites like this, they've already decided to take the plunge.  In terms of testosterone, I really feel like they should start low, then increase if needed during the cycle.  See what your body does, how it reacts to the chemicals, and make adjustments.  I get a kick out of people who are dead set on a cycle regimen, then blow a gasket if something doesn't go right.
I first started doing 'roids  in the 80's, there was no internet!  You experimented with your drugs and body, then made adjustments.
I watched a video by Rich Piana that made a lot of sense to me.  He changed his drugs during his cycle to keep "his body guessing."
I really think that is an interesting theory....not set on one particular set of drugs through the cycle, mixing it up.
You may say "how in the hell do I know what is doing what?"  I may be old school, and probably am, but my theory is "Look in the mirror," if you like what you see, good enough....just some of my thoughts...


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## Joliver (May 26, 2014)

Jayjay82 said:


> My first cycle was 500mgs of sustanon alone and I am not complaining if you know what you are doing when it comes to diet and lifting then you should not be disappointed with the results as a first time user but like someone else posted back then 500mgs of test was usually 500mgs of test now with all uglabs you never know what the exact dose is unless you have an extremely reputable source like a doc or you made it yourself



As long as we are discussing doses, this may be something of interest for the guys who started their first cycle on 500mgs of sustanon vs. the guys that started on 500mgs of test e:  test-e guys got ~7% more test than their sustanon counterparts.  

So i got to thinking....500mgs is a pretty good beginner dosage if you take......TNE!!! 

That way, we can all feel comfortable with the 500mg recommendation, but deliver almost 40% more test.


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## Bro Bundy (May 26, 2014)

i only train abs


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## will (May 26, 2014)

I think 500 is a good starting point.  Teaches a little bit of control imo. Most people ive dealt with jump up their second cycle anyway because of what kind of gains they got on their first.  U know, I got big on 500 so what will 750 do.


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 26, 2014)

So I didn't take the time to read through all the responses.
Being that I'm currently on my first cycle I think I can be a little help here.
500 is awesome but it isn't great. I wish I would have started with 750. I agree with both sides of the story honestly. Reason being is this particular subject is too general because everyone's different. Some people aren't educated enough to start with a higher test dose. And others waste time starting with just 500 as I believe I have. My next run will be 750 to a gram.

Now from Joli point of view what I took away from that is, a shut down is a shut down. If you are gonna cut off your natty production, make the reward much greater than the risk. Shut down at 750 is a greater reward so why not. This shit isn't amazing at 500. I could def handle more.

time and time again I see people advising to add in a new compound each cycle...why? If we start them at 500 test, why not get them to just run higher test the next cycle with an oral? It teaches them to appreciate test more instead of trying to jump right in to the harsher compounds. As joli mentioned, an uneducated individual on this shit will say test sucks and seek out either tren or throw in some deca which is mild yet harsh on the recovery/pct side of things. But noobs use it like it's nothing because the side effects are generally so mild. I've been told multiple times here to run deca next cycle. Why? To make recovery harder than it needs to be when I can run a gram of test and make great gains and also have a safer cycle. Test is the safest compound we can use and we advise a second compound on a second cycle without even learning how to appreciate test.

so, I don't disagree with telling someone to start at 500...In reality it's a safe place to start and you can make great gains. But, I believe we shouldn't be advising noobs to add a new compound to their cycles if they don't know the true power of test first. Second cycle, 750-gram of test.

Thanks,
TBOL4L!


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## will (May 26, 2014)

Frank I believe u are completely right about people not appreciating the power of test. My last cycle I finally ran tren to complete my trial of pretty much everything.  I cruise off cycle so I cant really touch on recovery as much as another person.  Now I loved tren, and I hate it at the same time. Strenght gains went through the roof but I got tired just walking to the bathroom.  Now that ive run all these things ive come to the conclusion that when I blast again I'm just going straight test. Test at a gram is great. Being said an average beginner needs to work into such a dose


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## Dtownry (May 27, 2014)

My apologies Seek.  I was out of line.  Dumb comment and I apologize.

I just like to see new guys really concentrate on actual strength training before they try to get huge.  Cart before the horse type thing I guess.


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## Seeker (May 27, 2014)

Dtownry said:


> My apologies Seek.  I was out of line.  Dumb comment and I apologize.
> 
> I just like to see new guys really concentrate on actual strength training before they try to get huge.  Cart before the horse type thing I guess.




We all are all brothers here, D. But thank you bro. Me too


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## Get Some (May 27, 2014)

joliver said:


> Consider that 500mgs of test e is actually 360mgs of testosterone, that seems low to me.  If you are going to shut down, why not go for more than 3-4x your natural level (young novice level anyway)?  Why is it that it is so easy to balk at higher levels of test but an oral kicker is customary and would be overlooked in a newbs cycle?



Natural production for most is 70mg per week on the HIGH SIDE of things. So 360 mg of test would actually be more than 5 times your natural production. I don't mean to be a dick, it just comes naturally 

Why start so high when you can work up to it? Starting high is the main reason people need to go over a gram a week to get results. Once you get to a certain level of transformation there are those that will go the dark magic route and others that will change up nutrition. The latter is the preferred method, even with AAS supplementation.


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## Get Some (May 27, 2014)

What week are you on frank? If you say less than 8 then you have yet to experience the full effect. 10 weeks is recommended for the beginner PURELY because the recovery is much easier. 14-16 weeks is more ideal because it give you 2-4 extra weeks in the "prime" of the cycle. So, for me, I think it is more effective to just run the cycle longer rather than up the dose. Of course, newbs need to be warned about the possibility of additional recovery  time that will be needed. 

Again, I'm not saying 750mg test is completely wrong... you can't discount the fact that you will definitely have more results at a higher dosage and I myself would definitely describe a weekly dose of 750mg as being awesome. I just don't think there is a need to rush here... work your way up and your body will thank you 



f.r.a.n.k. said:


> So I didn't take the time to read through all the responses.
> Being that I'm currently on my first cycle I think I can be a little help here.
> 500 is awesome but it isn't great. I wish I would have started with 750. I agree with both sides of the story honestly. Reason being is this particular subject is too general because everyone's different. Some people aren't educated enough to start with a higher test dose. And others waste time starting with just 500 as I believe I have. My next run will be 750 to a gram.
> 
> ...


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## f.r.a.n.k. (May 27, 2014)

Get Some said:


> What week are you on frank? If you say less than 8 then you have yet to experience the full effect. 10 weeks is recommended for the beginner PURELY because the recovery is much easier. 14-16 weeks is more ideal because it give you 2-4 extra weeks in the "prime" of the cycle. So, for me, I think it is more effective to just run the cycle longer rather than up the dose. Of course, newbs need to be warned about the possibility of additional recovery  time that will be needed.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying 750mg test is completely wrong... you can't discount the fact that you will definitely have more results at a higher dosage and I myself would definitely describe a weekly dose of 750mg as being awesome. I just don't think there is a need to rush here... work your way up and your body will thank you



I don't have my calendar with me...everything is planned out on there. I'm on 9 or 10 and my cycle is a 16 week plan. Not 10 to 12 like one would advise the average noob.
I'm not going to increase my dose now. I've already started the plan so I'm going to follow through with it as is. 500mg/week for 16 weeks


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## Joliver (May 27, 2014)

Dtownry said:


> My apologies Seek.  I was out of line.  Dumb comment and I apologize.
> 
> I just like to see new guys really concentrate on actual strength training before they try to get huge.  Cart before the horse type thing I guess.




Some of the best bodybuilders out there started out powerlifting.  Having a fundamentally athletic base is never a bad thing.  There are too many guys that cant rep their weight on any of the big 3.  If you cannot do that....you dont need test...you dont need anything.  You need to work.  

One of the big problems with this thread is that on a very basic level, advanced lifters and users have accepted the fact that novice steroid users are also new to weight training.  I know i have.  I give advice based on an advanced lifter that is looking to increase his/her absolute potential.  Unfortunately, I am most likely giving steroid advice to a kid that has never crawled under a bar, and his last needle was his MMR booster shot going into the 9th grade.  It is different.  A natty PLer decides to come over to the dark side:  750mgs test-e and call me in the in the morning.  He wants results.  No sense in experimenting with him.  To dose him too low is to take lbs off his total.  But i would also tell him that he wont ever beat me if he is a cycle guy.  B&C is the only way to be competitive.  

But most of what you tend to see with the ease of access to AAS is: "ive been working out for 2 years and hit my first plateau before i go on spring break--gimme a pill."  For that guy, hell, i dont care if he takes 250mgs a week.


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## Get Some (May 27, 2014)

f.r.a.n.k. said:


> I don't have my calendar with me...everything is planned out on there. I'm on 9 or 10 and my cycle is a 16 week plan. Not 10 to 12 like one would advise the average noob.
> I'm not going to increase my dose now. I've already started the plan so I'm going to follow through with it as is. 500mg/week for 16 weeks



I commend you for sticking with it and think you will be happy in the long term. Plus you will have something to look forward to for the 2nd cycle! Avoid high volume injections for as long as you can! haha


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## Joliver (May 27, 2014)

Get Some said:


> Natural production for most is 70mg per week on the HIGH SIDE of things. So 360 mg of test would actually be more than 5 times your natural production. I don't mean to be a dick, it just comes naturally
> 
> Why start so high when you can work up to it? Starting high is the main reason people need to go over a gram a week to get results. Once you get to a certain level of transformation there are those that will go the dark magic route and others that will change up nutrition. The latter is the preferred method, even with AAS supplementation.



70mgs would be for high-end for an untrained male.  Training does positively impact your testosterone production.  So i wouldn't be off by too much, i wouldnt think.  It was an approximation to an end anyway.  

I am a PLer an I tend to view the word through that view.  Every time we measure our test, it comes back as a concentration (ng/dl or something comparable).  The concentration dictates the results--especially in the ligand resistant type 2 fibers.  Type 2 fibers move weight, and someone who takes the risks of exogenous test administration would most likely want to see the maximum amount of result for their risk.  Like a "bang for your buck" type deal.

So from my standpoint, I am not starting high, i am starting from a higher dose from what is customary, but it is the lowest dose that will elicit protein synthesis over both fiber types.


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## Get Some (May 27, 2014)

joliver said:


> 70mgs would be for high-end for an untrained male.  *Training does positively impact your testosterone production*.  So i wouldn't be off by too much, i wouldnt think.  It was an approximation to an end anyway.
> 
> I am a PLer an I tend to view the word through that view.  Every time we measure our test, it comes back as a concentration (ng/dl or something comparable).  The concentration dictates the results--especially in the ligand resistant type 2 fibers.  Type 2 fibers move weight, and someone who takes the risks of exogenous test administration would most likely want to see the maximum amount of result for their risk.  Like a "bang for your buck" type deal.
> 
> So from my standpoint, I am not starting high, i am starting from a higher dose from what is customary, but it is the lowest dose that will elicit protein synthesis over both fiber types.



For 15-60 minutes post training... outside of that, no. The added effect would be almost negligible on a weekly basis unless you started low and improved your overall production by losing weight and getting in better overall shape. 

I do not believe 600mg is the minimum dose that will elicit protein synthesis over both fiber types but I will agree to disagree with you on that one. I realize powerlifters and bodybuilders have different goals. I will never be a powerlifter because of all the injuries I've had playing pro sports, and I have no desire to be a competitive bodybuilder. I do have knowledge that can be used for both aspects of the game and appreciate these debates and discussions.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 6, 2015)

Bumping this bizznitch to the top since I got a PM asking for this thread. 

Thanks for the info Joli. GO PATS!


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## Paolos (Jun 11, 2015)

Missed this one B4 nice thread, Enjoy seeing the contrasting views on the topic.
Got a good laugh when I saw the dates of the first cycle for some of the vets. Mine was like
1982 Test Suspension... Dose??? IDK but like 1CC  2x a week for 4 weeks before a PL meet.


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## Fsuphisig (Jun 11, 2015)

Planning my first cycle now, this got me curious, would Cost the same


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 13, 2015)

Good thread I forgot about this one...

I think that 500mg works fine. But that doesn't mean 600 wouldn't work better. And the difference between 500 and 600mg is pretty slight. 

Just because something works fine doesn't mean we should stop tinkering.


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## PillarofBalance (Jun 13, 2015)

Fsuphisig said:


> Planning my first cycle now, this got me curious, would Cost the same


This should be good. You have held off a long time, work hard and have a handle on your nutrition unlike so many first timers... you are gonna absolutely blow up.


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## TheLupinator (Jun 13, 2015)

I believe 1gram is the standard.....





























(all hell breaks loose)


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## Joliver (Jun 13, 2015)

TheLupinator said:


> I believe 1gram is the standard.....
> 
> 
> (all hell breaks loose)




The gold standard....


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## Pinkbear (Jun 13, 2015)

I'm a hulk follower.

Starting dose should be 2g


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## Jayjay82 (Jun 13, 2015)

500mgs of test or more and I think just about anyone will get good results IMHO but don't get me wrong the closer to a gram the better the results.


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