# Testosterone and Your Tendons



## hulksmash (Aug 2, 2014)

The majority here know I have several issues concerning joints and my back.

With that said, I've always blamed my testosterone usage. Many older fellas I've talked to blamed Test (namely Test Cyp) for all their joint problems.

Today, I decided to finally research that hypothesis after putting it off for so long. I'll share the very first two studies I found:

*The effects of anabolic steroids on collagen synthesis in rat skeletal muscle and tendon*
http://m.ajs.sagepub.com/content/20/3/262.short


"...In the Achilles tendon, the activity of prolyl 4- hydroxylase and the *hydroxyproline concentration decreased significantly (P < 0.05) in the group given high doses at 3 weeks.* Anabolic steroid treatment seems to have at least a transitory effect on collagen biosynthesis..."

Hydroxyproline's function is to maintain collagen stability.

*Organisation of collagen fibrils in tendon: changes induced by an anabolic steroid*
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02889952

"...The striking time — dependant collagen dysplasia and other pathological findings strongly suggest that in mice *anabolic steroid treatment predisposes to tendon rupture especially when the animals are exercised*..."

Collagen fibrils are semi-crystalline aggregates of collagen molecules. These are actually bundles of fibrils. Basically, that is what your tendons and ligaments are.

Science backs up the anecdotal hypothesis that test is hard on your joints.

Just letting everyone see this so they can make the proper changes and/or be proactive in activities that will mitigate the negative effects of Test use on their joints.

My test usage is why a year ago I switched to 15-20 reps, stopped chasing big S/B/D numbers. I also wanted to focus purely on size, and partials+volume are the best for that goal.

Enjoy the ride, but show your joints some mercy fellas!


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## event462 (Aug 2, 2014)

Thanks brother! I've always heard test is bad for your joints but never an explanation why. I plan on really going over those links later.


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## shenky (Aug 2, 2014)

Woah

I had no idea. Good shit hulks mash!

How can I avoid joint issues? Fish oil?


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## hulksmash (Aug 2, 2014)

shenky said:


> Woah
> 
> I had no idea. Good shit hulks mash!
> 
> How can I avoid joint issues? Fish oil?



Think of every single thing used for joints:

fish oil
glucosamine
chondroitin
etc

Now take that list, and *write bullshit above them*.

None of that shit works; there's never been proven, peer-reviewed efficacy of it preventing, healing, or delaying joint and tendon issues.

The only things that are proven to aid joint issues and inflammation are Deca and corticosteroid injections (and the latter can cause osteoporosis in long term use).

Other than that, eat plenty of protein, get enough sleep, stretch enough, and limit 1-6 rep range/weight method of lifting.

Inb4 "but my joint supps lowered my joint pain!" replies...pretty easy to feel a certain way if you have preconceived notions to believe a compound makes a person hurt less and you have absolute ZERO doubt that you won't hurt less (trying avoid the dreaded "p" word here)...


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## hulksmash (Aug 2, 2014)

Oh yea-

I mainly directed this at people who never come off and cruise above TRT levels.

Those are the ones who should be cautious.

Not too sure of the level of detrimental effects with those that cruise on super low doses a la TRT.


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## Seeker (Aug 2, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> Oh yea-
> 
> I mainly directed this at people who never come off and cruise above TRT levels.
> 
> ...



I was waiting for you to make this point. I personally have been lucky over the years by hardly ever having joint issues or pain. Lucky? Or cautious? How about both.


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## hulksmash (Aug 2, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I was waiting for you to make this point. I personally have been lucky over the years by hardly ever having joint issues or pain. Lucky? Or cautious? How about both.



I think it's more cautiousness than luck for ya!


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## SuperBane (Aug 3, 2014)

I've used just about every supplement available / suggest for joint issues (except at this point in time, deca). 
My right elbow irritates me from time to time.
I've noticed nothing from any of them.

I will say on a low carb high fat keto diet my joints ache more oft than when on a low fat higher carb diet. I assume this is because of water levels. (Note: Not water intake because on a low carb diet my water intake has far exceeded the amount I intake on any other diet.)

These are my personal experiences.

I would like to ask why older experienced users blamed Test Cyp as opposed to any other ester?


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## Joliver (Aug 3, 2014)

Supraphysiological levels of test (and some other AAS) will inhibit high quality, cross-linked collagen synthesis.  I haven't noticed a difference in cyp vs other esters, but feeling the difference in collagen synthesis would be hard to do.  

Some steroids are a double edged sword because they dramatically increase strength while compromising the tendons and ligaments that hold the joints together.  Winny is an example of a drug that increases low quality collagen synthesis.  It reportedly increases the size but lowers the tensile strength of the connective tissue.

Blame may not be the best word, but I attribute some of my injuries to a reduction in collagen synthesis.  It is almost unavoidable at some points, but there are a few things that can be done to help the problem.  First, if you are a B&C guy, cruise at a low test level (TRT range).  And finally, include a compound that increases high quality collagen synthesis--things like deca, EQ, var, and HGH.  Of course, you have to decide if you want to take this advice from a gimp. Totally up to you.


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## TriniJuice (Aug 3, 2014)

Would cruising on a low dose var (50mg indefinitely) be a good option to prevent this,
Also I read a post about why Var should always be ran with Tren
Due to the fast increases in strength/LBM with Tren...Var is the only fast acting option to increase collegen synthesis, elastin, and ATP...
EQ/Bold Cyp are other options BUT that would just mean more injection volume...Deca/NPP are the 3rd option but are not recommended to be ran with Tren, only bcuz of the premise not to run two 19nors at the same time...
So cleary Var would be the best option...Me personally I wouldn't mind the extra compound as a base (think test)
for blasting/crusing
I've heard of fitness models and PL's crusing on var year round but don't know any of the future ramifications of doing so. ..
I know of the reports of long term use w/Var with aid patients but I won't use those reports to provide an answer for myself bcuz they have a muscle wasting "disease" so long term use for them is beneficial and more of a reward higly outweighing the risk....


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## ken Sass (Aug 3, 2014)

npp or deca (samee same) is my joint helper of choice


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## hulksmash (Aug 3, 2014)

Who the hell told you all that Oxandrolone is beneficial??

I've read plenty of studies and had some specifically say Oxandrolone decreases collagen and collagen expression!

Why the **** do people think other compounds EXCEPT for Deca is good for joints?

Am I seriously the only one that asks for sources? Haha


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## ECKSRATED (Aug 3, 2014)

This might be a dumb question cus I'm kinda dumb sometimes but what about collagen pills? The only time I've ever seen collagen pills is when my wife was directed to take some while being pregnant. She said her hair  nails and skin all changed for the better while taking it.

good post hulk.


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## Joliver (Aug 3, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> This might be a dumb question cus I'm kinda dumb sometimes but what about collagen pills? The only time I've ever seen collagen pills is when my wife was directed to take some while being pregnant. She said her hair  nails and skin all changed for the better while taking it.
> 
> good post hulk.



Collagen pills won't work because they are digested when taken orally.  There are things you can do to increase natural synthesis.  Vitamin C is crucial in the collagen synthesis chain--which is why lemons turned out to be the cure for scurvy.  It may only help a bit, but still...you dont want to be in a vitamin c deficit if you find yourself injured.


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## TriniJuice (Aug 3, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> Am I seriously the only one that asks for sources? Haha



This was just a write up I've seen posted on various boards, their was also a better well informed one but I can't find it;



> We all know the story with Tren, Radical Strength gains FAST, and Aggression.
> The Aggression is largely do to Tren being what I call a "Triple Androgen" up to 3-4 times more potent then Test interms of operating as an Adrogen on the CNS.
> 
> Now the Strength gains are so Fast that MANY injuries ruin peoples cycle with Tears and more. The reason this happens is Collagen Synthesis, and Elastin cannot keep up pace with the huge increases in performance.
> ...


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## hulksmash (Aug 3, 2014)

TriniJuice said:


> This was just a write up I've seen posted on various boards, their was also a better well informed one but I can't find it;



No sources from that post.

I do know Oxandrolone increases type 1 and some type 3 collagen.

However all AAS seems to lower collagen integrity.

I have found NO sources saying Oxandrolone INCREASES collagen stability and integrity of fibrils.

|rant|Why does no one ask for sources?

Does this mean I can use my fancy words and everyone believes me? This is why I always would rather let lifters keep believing their anecdotal driven ("my joints feel great on var since people said it's good for tendons and I used it with preconceived notions and have zero doubt of it!"), placebo caused results (how much pain a person feels is greatly controlled by the mind)  rather than giving hard facts...can't teach an old dog new tricks, and people hate science if it antagonizes their multi-decade beliefs.|rant|


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## woodswise (Aug 3, 2014)

I take PABA as a supplement daily.  It is supposed to improve the suppleness of tendons.  It seems to help.  When I stopped PABA recently, I started to get sore in places I haven't been lately.


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## hulksmash (Aug 3, 2014)

woodswise said:


> I take PABA as a supplement daily.  It is supposed to improve the suppleness of tendons.  It seems to help.  When I stopped PABA recently, I started to get sore in places I haven't been lately.



PABA has no shown efficacy for tendon, collagen, or collagen fibril improvements.

It would do the same as taking a sugar pill with a doubtless preconceived notion that you will hurt less by taking it-thus the increased perception of soreness after cessation of use with PABA.

Try Deca out!


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## TriniJuice (Aug 3, 2014)

I currently have no joint issues i just saw it as a preventative maintenance type of thing, 
but if theirs no scientific proof/backing...not that i even understand all that ish any way hahaa but i'd take that info over word of mouth/bro-science

so going against your no orals rule,
what do think of staying on 50mg var year round...obviously their'd be a benefit (more gear, more power)


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## hulksmash (Aug 3, 2014)

TriniJuice said:


> I currently have no joint issues i just saw it as a preventative maintenance type of thing,
> but if theirs no scientific proof/backing...not that i even understand all that ish any way hahaa but i'd take that info over word of mouth/bro-science
> 
> so going against your no orals rule,
> what do think of staying on 50mg var year round...obviously their'd be a benefit (more gear, more power)



FIRST-my "no oral rule" is for *ME* and me only. Orals are pointless because I have time limit for being on gear.

Always think in "cost vs benefit" ratios. Oxandrolone or any oral year around is not smart due to the continual stress on your liver. 

Yes, liver damage from orals are over hyped.

However, a chronic stress to the liver is never good. I would not recommend staying an oral

It would be like drinking daily or taking acetaminophen daily. People would advise against that.

It's a risk to liver health. Your choice.


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## woodswise (Aug 3, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> PABA has no shown efficacy for tendon, collagen, or collagen fibril improvements.
> 
> It would do the same as taking a sugar pill with a doubtless preconceived notion that you will hurt less by taking it-thus the increased perception of soreness after cessation of use with PABA.
> 
> Try Deca out!



Though the broscience says Deca is good for the joints, Deca is scientifically proven to make tendons more brittle.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20673248

But further, PABA has been shown in both scientific and anecdotal studies, to increase tendon suppleness.  http://www.vrp.com/hair-skin-nails/health-clues-hidden-in-your-nails/hair-skin-and-nails/paba-para-amino-benzoic-acid-nutritional-co-factor-and-antioxidant


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## hulksmash (Aug 3, 2014)

woodswise said:


> Though the broscience says Deca is good for the joints, Deca is scientifically proven to make tendons more brittle.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20673248
> 
> But further, PABA has been shown in both scientific and anecdotal studies, to increase tendon suppleness.  http://www.vrp.com/hair-skin-nails/health-clues-hidden-in-your-nails/hair-skin-and-nails/paba-para-amino-benzoic-acid-nutritional-co-factor-and-antioxidant



I actually came across those PABA studies that are sourced in your link and if order them since it's about hair..namely gray hair in men.

Also, the brittleness and integrity of tendons is affected by all AAS (hence me saying "..However all AAS seems to lower collagen integrity..." A few posts up), but I do remember reading how Deca increases synovial fluid and that would cause a decrease in pain.

However, I can't find that synovial related study with nandrolone again and I've looked all day.


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## woodswise (Aug 3, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> I actually came across those PABA studies that are sourced in your link and if order them since it's about hair..namely gray hair in men.
> 
> Also, the brittleness and integrity of tendons is affected by all AAS (hence me saying "..However all AAS seems to lower collagen integrity..." A few posts up), but I do remember reading how Deca increases synovial fluid and that would cause a decrease in pain.
> 
> However, I can't find that synovial related study with nandrolone again and I've looked all day.



Yes, I am aware Deca will increase synovial fluid and "lubricate" the joint.  That is quite a bit different than making tendons more supple.

Here are the references from the article I cited that pertain to PABA making tendons more supple:

Allen, J.M. Rapid Reaction of Singlet Molecular Oxygen (1O2) With P -Aminobenzoic Acid (PABA) in Aqueous Solution Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, July, 1995.

Bjorksten, J. Crosslinkage and the aging process, in: Theoretical Aspects of Aging, by Morris Rockstein (ed), Academic Press, NY, 1974.

Williams, R. Nutrition Against Disease, 1973.

Zarafonetis, C. Antifibrotic Therapy with POTABA. American Journal of Medical Sciences, 1964, 248:550-561.


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## Joliver (Aug 4, 2014)

Var and wound healing study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10810035


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## TriniJuice (Aug 4, 2014)

This one is over my head but you guys can deceiver
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/403338_2

Way 2much science shxt for me


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