# SCIROXX - Real or Hype?



## Cobra Strike

Whats up fellas! 

(for all who know me this will be a completely honest thread. I have no reason to lie and I could care less if things don't work out. I am also not promoting anyone in this thread. I am simply trying out products to be able to pass my experience along to the rest of you and find the truth!)

So I never ever do logs but as some of you know I have been on the hunt for real IGF-1 for a while now. I've spent thousands and thousands on this hunt without getting one single vial of real IGF. Ive even had a doc write up a fake study in order to gain buying access of IGf1-LR3 from an international reagent protein manufacturer. I ran that at 100mcg for 2 months and I got nothing from it. No insane pumps, no extra gains, no noticeable strength or size. That's just a touch of my hunt for IGF. After that I gave up because if the guys who provided it to massive universities to preform studies and have federal approval to make couldn't get me something that does what all the hype says it does then in my book it just doesn't exist or the guys from back in the day are full of it.

Here is the link to the thread which sparked this trial:

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/22196-GH-IGF1-and-should-I-combine-them

So to begin with I contacted sciroxx and asked if I could pick up some IGF1. He was fairly decent about replying in a respectable time frame. We did have a communication break down which almost led to this thread not getting started. We worked on what type of cycle I was going to run. I sent him what I wanted to do but he was in a hurry when he read the proposal and just said ok to it. My proposed trial went like this:

IGF1-LR3 at 100mcg/day for 30 days/am shot
IGF1-Des at 100mcg/day for 60 days/pre work out into the muscle that I was working that day
GH (somastim) at 3iu am and pm everyday for 60 days

I was not asking for a handout here either. I offered to purchase these products. Sciroxx said he would toss me the IGF but I would have to buy the GH. Not a problem. I sent the funds. About 14 days later my pack arrived. When I opened it all of my GH was there but there was only 4 vials of IGF-LR3 and 6 vials of IGF1-DES. I emailed him and that's when the break down occurred. So long story short he resent me enough IGF1-DES to try out for 24 days at 100mcg pre work out. We cancelled the IGF-LR3. I don't believe 24 days is long enough for a trial run but hey its his money so I cant really argue. I must say that regardless of the communication breakdown he kept his professionalism about him. 


As of right now I have been on the GH for about 3 weeks. I am starting the DES today - 50mcg in each tricep. I am starting this thread right before I hit the gym so I will log back in later to note if I noticed anything from it.

I will be getting my IGF level tested in 2 or 3 weeks as well to see how good his GH is. I have not noticed any sides from the GH at all but that doesn't mean anything as I have taken pharm GH the same way for 8 months and didn't notice any sides.

The thing about the IGF1 is that it cannot be blood tested so there is no way to know if it is real or not but from what everyone says on the net is that it should create noticeable growth and extreme pumps. If any of you have anything you would like me to look for while giving this thing a test run please let me know. I doubt I have ever had real IGF so I do consider myself a rookie when it comes to running it. I have no experience with real IGF...just a ton of fake shit (as far as I know)

Scrioxx has told me in emails he just wants my honest opinions about the run and that is what Im going to give...good or bad.

So lets see if his claims are legit or not!!!


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## Cobra Strike

To kick this thing off I will list what I have been running for the last 6 months with no changes to the gear:

Test e 300 @ 900mg/week
Tren e 200 @ 600mg/week
EQ 300      @ 600mg/week
Mast e 200 @ 400mg/week
Winni oral @ 100mg/day
Anavar oral @ 100mg/day
GH              @ 6iu/day - 3iu am - 3iu pm

I will continue on this cycle during this entire trial. I am in a cut right now and am down to 10%. I am working on getting to 8% before I start a bulk. I will be taking measurements of my arms and legs during this. I realize I am in a cut but if any of these grow while in a cut than it is most likely to do with the IGF.


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## Cobra Strike

Its not really a cycle if you never come off lol

Ok so the first tricep day went like this - NORMAL

I didn't notice any extra strength or any crazy pump beyond what I normally have. Im not sure if IGF is suppose to work that instantly or if it takes time to build?

Tomorrow is my off day. I will be hitting legs on Monday. 50mcg in each thigh


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## Cobra Strike

ECKSRATED said:


> Holy cycle. Damn cobra. I'm in to see what happens brother.



Nothing major will come from the gear. I think I have just been on gear to long. I don't have newb gains anymore. I mean every goal I have will take me 8 months to a year to obtain. I find that when I try to rush things I end up doing more damage than good. There isn't any 5lb gains in a week ever. Its like 1/2lb a week on a bulk if I am lucky. 

Im just really curious to see how this IGF DES works!


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## sciroxx

It'll be interesting if you may take a serum test of GH and IGF1 (with other parameters of course, such as glucose, liver etc), it'll give some valuable indication to the Soamstim (GH) you're taking
Also - on what wight, body fat% you started ? duer to miscommunication between us you started the IGF1 and then dropped it and then started again, noticed any changes in these parameters ?


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## Flyingdragon

Thats a ton of juice.  In my opinion you could decrease the amount of gear by 2/3 if the IGF and GH are real.  Overall results should be similar and your pocketbook bigger.....


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## j2048b

im subbed for this because ive seen karl doing his own thing for a bit, and have wondered if his gh was legit for sometime now, he claims it is and i see others like it while i see others not respond at all even tho he makes it himself in his own factory i guess....


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## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> It'll be interesting if you may take a serum test of GH and IGF1 (with other parameters of course, such as glucose, liver etc), it'll give some valuable indication to the Soamstim (GH) you're taking
> Also - on what wight, body fat% you started ? duer to miscommunication between us you started the IGF1 and then dropped it and then started again, noticed any changes in these parameters ?



In the am I weigh 230lbs/6ft tall/10%

The IGF that I ran at the very beginning lasted like 4 days so I didn't see anything from it.

I don't think I am going to do a serum test on this gh. IGF test is the real test to prove quality anyway so there really isn't any reason to waste 10iu of gh just to see a serum spike. If the gh is real then the IGF test will tell.



Flyingdragon said:


> Thats a ton of juice.  In my opinion you could decrease the amount of gear by 2/3 if the IGF and GH are real.  Overall results should be similar and your pocketbook bigger.....



This is already a reduced cycle lol I don't think its to much. 900 of test seems to work well for me. The tren is already about the lowest I would ever run it. The eq I think would work better at a higher dose but that is the lowest I would ever run that as well and the mast is simply there to keep my sex drive the same as 20year olds lol

I did make a thread a few weeks ago posting up my blood work showing what it looks like after a straight 2 1/2 years of blasting. If you check it out I am sure you will be amazed at the results. They basically look like I am not even running anything until you get to the test levels. I wouldn't say that I am abusing gear because I know my limits but for most that probably is a huge cycle...but then again I know guys on the circuit that make my cycles look like an amateur.


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## sciroxx

Based on my experience EQ works better in the higher dosage range, I've never seen descent results with EQ (unless very novice) with 300-400 mg like some may recommend, need higher, much higher dosages


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## curtisvill

Very interested to see how this turns out. I have access to real IGF1 but it is crazy expensive so I have not tried it yet.


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## Cobra Strike

curtisvill said:


> Very interested to see how this turns out. I have access to real IGF1 but it is crazy expensive so I have not tried it yet.



What does 1 mg cost at your place?



LeanHerm said:


> I see you're still running small cycles. Hahahah. Goodluck and interested in the outcome



Get big or die trying!!!!!


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## Cobra Strike

So today was leg day...get that shit out of the way at the beginning of the week haha

Hit 50mcg in each quad. Veins are coming out nicely but pretty sure that's my diet. Didn't get any major pump or strength gain today. Pretty much another normal work out.

When I inject the IFG I am doing it at my place. Then I drive to the gym and walk in the gym then start working out. It comes out to be about 6-7 minutes before I work out. I warm up with one set of light weight and rep it until its sore just to get the blood coming in. Then I hit it. Cardio is post work out. I don't think injecting it 30 seconds before I work out will make any difference in the work out. IGF DES doesn't burn out that fast. 

the one thing I like about this is that it doesn't burn upon injection. The Sigma Aldrich I ran stung like a bee sting from the AA I had to mix it in. Scrioxx has the AA made in the IGF he has so you only need to add bac water.


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## ron1204

Im checking this thread everyday like its the news. 
When are you supposed to start feeling something?


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## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> So today was leg day...get that shit out of the way at the beginning of the week haha
> 
> Hit 50mcg in each quad. Veins are coming out nicely but pretty sure that's my diet. Didn't get any major pump or strength gain today. Pretty much another normal work out.
> 
> When I inject the IFG I am doing it at my place. Then I drive to the gym and walk in the gym then start working out. It comes out to be about 6-7 minutes before I work out. I warm up with one set of light weight and rep it until its sore just to get the blood coming in. Then I hit it. Cardio is post work out. I don't think injecting it 30 seconds before I work out will make any difference in the work out. IGF DES doesn't burn out that fast.
> 
> the one thing I like about this is that it doesn't burn upon injection. The Sigma Aldrich I ran stung like a bee sting from the AA I had to mix it in. Scrioxx has the AA made in the IGF he has so you only need to add bac water.



What diet you're on ? when u train ? pls specify as much as possible, just highly curious


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## Cobra Strike

ron1204 said:


> Im checking this thread everyday like its the news.
> When are you supposed to start feeling something?



That's a good question brother...I have no idea how this stuff is suppose to work other than what everyone in the web world says it does or what the profiles says it does or what rich piana says it does. We all know how solid that info is lol Im wondering when I will notice any of the effects that everyone describes as well!



sciroxx said:


> What diet you're on ? when u train ? pls specify as much as possible, just highly curious



I don't do diets with names but my diet right now is this:

Breakfast - 8am
1/2 cup oats
14 almonds
12 egg whites

Snack - 11am
8 ounces chicken
1/3 cup rice
veggies

Lunch - 2pm
8 ounces chicken
1/3 cup rice
veggies

work out - 3 to 4pm whenever I get done at the office

Post work out shake -
50g whey
50g Dextrose
10g Leucine
10g Creatine
10g Glutamine

Dinner - 8pm
8 ounces chicken
1/3 cup rice
veggies

Snack -
6oz Salmon
veggies

Bedtime meal-
10 egg whites
2 tablespoons Natural PB
veggies


So today I trained back. I have to say that this is the first time I have ever injected anything into my lats. 50mcg into each one. It was very awkward to do and hard to reach but it was surprisingly painless. I was kind of curious about throwing some oil in there next since it went so well lol JK...went to the gym. Work out was typical for back day. Nothing noticeably different. Tomorrow is shoulders.


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## ECKSRATED

You're running four oils and 2 orals. Do u think u will notice anything even if the igf is real? I would think it would be better to try on maybe just a nice dose of test or somethibg like that. U have so many different compounds doing different things I would just think its really hard to feel a difference at all. I dunno. I'll be watching this thread cobra


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## Cobra Strike

ECKSRATED said:


> You're running four oils and 2 orals. Do u think u will notice anything even if the igf is real? I would think it would be better to try on maybe just a nice dose of test or somethibg like that. U have so many different compounds doing different things I would just think its really hard to feel a difference at all. I dunno. I'll be watching this thread cobra



Normally I would agree with you on this but I have been running these for 6 months so yes if there was one thing added I would see it. Its not like I am a newb that doesn't really understand what each compound does and how I react to them. Hell I have been running these compounds for 6 years now and the last 2 1/2 I haven't even cruised once. All my levels are perfectly leveled out. I don't go through any peaks or valleys. Every shot and oral are taken at almost the same time on the same days as always..its like my meals..pretty much just consistent af lol I know exactly how I feel day to day and during each work out that anything extra would stick out. IGF also works on a different axis so if its real and does what everyone says it does than it should be pretty noticeable regardless of what AAS I am on.


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## ECKSRATED

Cobra Strike said:


> Normally I would agree with you on this but I have been running these for 6 months so yes if there was one thing added I would see it. Its not like I am a newb that doesn't really understand what each compound does and how I react to them. Hell I have been running these compounds for 6 years now and the last 2 1/2 I haven't even cruised once. All my levels are perfectly leveled out. I don't go through any peaks or valleys. Every shot and oral are taken at almost the same time on the same days as always..its like my meals..pretty much just consistent af lol I know exactly how I feel day to day and during each work out that anything extra would stick out. IGF also works on a different axis so if its real and does what everyone says it does than it should be pretty noticeable regardless of what AAS I am on.



I know you're not a newb and u know I wasn't saying that. Lol. I know nothing about igf. What should u notice if its legit? 

I wish I lived in a state where it was easy to get bloods done. I would probably experiment more with compounds. Fukking NY blows. Everything about it.


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## Cobra Strike

ECKSRATED said:


> I know you're not a newb and u know I wasn't saying that. Lol. I know nothing about igf. What should u notice if its legit?
> 
> I wish I lived in a state where it was easy to get bloods done. I would probably experiment more with compounds. Fukking NY blows. Everything about it.



Ya I know you weren't calling me a newb..just a comparison is all lol

The only thing I know is that everyone says that IGF creates insane pumps that make it so they cant even lift 20lbs. People talk about having to leave the gym half way through their workout because the pump is so painful. Then they talk about how fast they put on size on IGF....like its a miracle drug. Even rich piana (which we all know says a lot of dumb shit) states that back in his day he took real IGF and it did those same things. I honestly think that its all just extremely over hyped and everyone that is trying IGF is believing the hype and creating a placebo in their own heads then going on the net and ranting over how crazy it is. Even guys that buy it from the peptide places where you get 5 mg for 90$ haha I just cant believe that everyone on the net that has claimed they used it is full of shit. that's a ton of people that are all lying? for what purpose? I have no clue and that's why I have hunted and hunted to find this stuff. Id pay 1000 for a mg of proven to be real IGF if it was even a possibility. 

When Scioxx came here and claimed his was real I instantly jumped on that. I instantly jumped at the need to call bullshit. So here I am trying it once again to see. Im not sure if it needs to build or what but I got 24 days to see if it does anything. Atleast I can test his GH and prove if that is legit


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## Redrum1327

Crazy Fukker ! And I thought Jolie was nuts , he's just average after all !!! Lol good luck


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## ron1204

Cobra Strike said:


> Ya I know you weren't calling me a newb..just a comparison is all lol
> 
> The only thing I know is that everyone says that IGF creates insane pumps that make it so they cant even lift 20lbs. People talk about having to leave the gym half way through their workout because the pump is so painful. Then they talk about how fast they put on size on IGF....like its a miracle drug. Even rich piana (which we all know says a lot of dumb shit) states that back in his day he took real IGF and it did those same things. I honestly think that its all just extremely over hyped and everyone that is trying IGF is believing the hype and creating a placebo in their own heads then going on the net and ranting over how crazy it is. Even guys that buy it from the peptide places where you get 5 mg for 90$ haha I just cant believe that everyone on the net that has claimed they used it is full of shit. that's a ton of people that are all lying? for what purpose? I have no clue and that's why I have hunted and hunted to find this stuff. Id pay 1000 for a mg of proven to be real IGF if it was even a possibility.
> 
> When Scioxx came here and claimed his was real I instantly jumped on that. I instantly jumped at the need to call bullshit. So here I am trying it once again to see. Im not sure if it needs to build or what but I got 24 days to see if it does anything. Atleast I can test his GH and prove if that is legit



well man i really hope you are successful in your search for real IGF. I personally have never looked into it but when u search online its only a small handful of people saying they got crazy pumps and who knows if its real, or not or a placebo or anything. Its insane you've looked for so long and blown so much money with no luck. I'm pulling for you and ill keep following this daily, hopefully we get some good news soon!


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## sciroxx

I think Rich Piana mentioned in one video that he got crazy pumps back in the day when he could get his hands on pharma IGF1, which started the hype, I'm not aware to any mechanism by which the IGF1 should cause severe pumps, it does have some effect on red blood count, like GH and AAS, it doesn't effect nitric oxide or such mechanism so this is somewhat a myth I suppose, checking out reliable reports like ron1204 mentioned also show this.

IGF1 whatsoever has some distinct anabolic, anti catabolic and metabolic traits, I'll show below one out of may scientific literature to show it. What I have seen from my pro customers as something to easy to spot swiftly is a sensation of fullness of the muscles under some restricted calories diet, not some crazy pumps, I'll post on some ideas later

Here is some basic science - 

- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
------------conclusions -
GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
-----------results and conclusions
RESULTS:
Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.


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## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> That's a good question brother...I have no idea how this stuff is suppose to work other than what everyone in the web world says it does or what the profiles says it does or what rich piana says it does. We all know how solid that info is lol Im wondering when I will notice any of the effects that everyone describes as well!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't do diets with names but my diet right now is this:
> 
> Breakfast - 8am
> 1/2 cup oats
> 14 almonds
> 12 egg whites
> 
> Snack - 11am
> 8 ounces chicken
> 1/3 cup rice
> veggies
> 
> Lunch - 2pm
> 8 ounces chicken
> 1/3 cup rice
> veggies
> 
> work out - 3 to 4pm whenever I get done at the office
> 
> Post work out shake -
> 50g whey
> 50g Dextrose
> 10g Leucine
> 10g Creatine
> 10g Glutamine
> 
> Dinner - 8pm
> 8 ounces chicken
> 1/3 cup rice
> veggies
> 
> Snack -
> 6oz Salmon
> veggies
> 
> Bedtime meal-
> 10 egg whites
> 2 tablespoons Natural PB
> veggies
> 
> 
> So today I trained back. I have to say that this is the first time I have ever injected anything into my lats. 50mcg into each one. It was very awkward to do and hard to reach but it was surprisingly painless. I was kind of curious about throwing some oil in there next since it went so well lol JK...went to the gym. Work out was typical for back day. Nothing noticeably different. Tomorrow is shoulders.



If it may suite your daily schedule reduce carbs for few days, take them off completely from all preworkout meals actually, even give it a week, and report compared to low carbs diet u have had in the past, then we may get back to a very high calories diet and see, it'll be more interesting


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## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> I think Rich Piana mentioned in one video that he got crazy pumps back in the day when he could get his hands on pharma IGF1, which started the hype, I'm not aware to any mechanism by which the IGF1 should cause severe pumps, it does have some effect on red blood count, like GH and AAS, it doesn't effect nitric oxide or such mechanism so this is somewhat a myth I suppose, checking out reliable reports like ron1204 mentioned also show this.
> 
> IGF1 whatsoever has some distinct anabolic, anti catabolic and metabolic traits, I'll show below one out of may scientific literature to show it. What I have seen from my pro customers as something to easy to spot swiftly is a sensation of fullness of the muscles under some restricted calories diet, not some crazy pumps, I'll post on some ideas later
> 
> Here is some basic science -
> 
> - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
> ------------conclusions -
> GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.
> 
> - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
> -----------results and conclusions
> RESULTS:
> Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
> CONCLUSIONS:
> Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.



Thank you for the post bro. The conclusion makes sense but if its such a thing like gh and takes a long time to see results than how can anyone afford IGF? I am running it at 100mcg a day so at a dollar a microgram I simply could not afford to run igf for 6 months. Hell even 30 days would cost 3g. That's 4 to 5 times the cost for me to run pharm GH. If IFG runs me a bill a day then it should cause some pretty amazing results for that kind of money. If it doesn't than it just isn't even worth buying. AAS in comparison will provide results in 4 to 6 weeks of taking it which is much much cheaper. Im trying to see market value here. 3g for a month better provide some game changing results right?


and to reply to your diet post. I cannot alter my diet. I am being trained by a professional and I simply cannot change his plan. I cant even add or take away 50 calories. I am pretty sure he will be taking some carbs out here soon though as this is week 4 following this specific meal plan.

Today was shoulders. Hit 50mcg in each lateral delt. I love shoulder day. Its always tank top on shoulder day. The pump I get in my shoulders gives me a crazy boost in the gym. They fill out fkn huge and give me the look that I cant get enough of. I destroy my shoulders on shoulder day. With that being said it was another normal day for shoulders. Im curious to see what I will get out of 24 days. If Scrioxx thinks the crazy pumps are more mythical than I can buy into that as I have never got them on any IGF. IGF is also crazy expensive so in my eyes to be able to actually sell it the stuff would need to create some amazing results. Im fully into this trial!


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## ECKSRATED

U need to post some pics cobra. Shows us your sexy ass


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## Cobra Strike

Not gonna show my other face...This butt is for you ecks!


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## ECKSRATED

Is there at least one hair on that ass?!?! 

Was your lady mad when she saw u wearing her undies? Lol 

You look awesome brother. U always have. Nice work cobra.


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## Cobra Strike

ECKSRATED said:


> Is there at least one hair on that ass?!?!
> 
> Was your lady mad when she saw u wearing her undies? Lol
> 
> You look awesome brother. U always have. Nice work cobra.



lmao I wish that was me...except for the hair. Im a hairy bastard but not quite as hairy as you ecks! I blame deca. I have no idea what I look like from my backside but now im interested. I don't ever post pics because of tats and other really paranoid reasons that you know of but I found one of me at 13%ish bf that isn't very revealing I don't think. Non-flexed and unshaved pic to show reality.  Had to black out one of the tats. I need to get down to 8% before I can run my next bulk which should be very promising. Im planning on jumping up 10 pounds in muscle over that course. Got a few years before I hit my goal of 260 at 8-9%. My last bulk I was up to 260 but was like 16% haha so I know it will come. Each run I do weather it be a cut or a bulk gets more disciplined than the previous. This cut has went really well with the added discipline. Im just never big enough is the problem and wish I would of gotten serious much much faster. I was one of those guys that started using gear and still lived life like a normal...eating and drinking whenever or whatever. Such a waste.


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## ECKSRATED

U fukker. I've seen a pic of u before. But never of your head or anything. 

U look solid and full as fukk in that picture man. Jesus. Very impressive. U big fukk


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## Cobra Strike

ECKSRATED said:


> U fukker. I've seen a pic of u before. But never of your head or anything.
> 
> U look solid and full as fukk in that picture man. Jesus. Very impressive. U big fukk



Shit well I appreciate the kindness man but I got a long way to go. Im not even close to looking like I could step on stage. That's where I want to be (without the stepping on stage part). The last pic I seen of you was you standing in your driveway with a cigarette in your hand mlp...Im not even to that point yet and that was a couple years ago I seen that. Just tryin to get what you got my man

You would think I would be bigger never coming off. In my experience its not so much the gear that changes me..its the diet. I can only get as good as my diet no matter how much gear I take, or how long I take it, or even if I cycle on or off. I do see a little better results by not coming off but that forces me to constantly have to check my bloods to make sure things are running smooth. Even though my bloods are great I do have a small amount of hypertrophy of my heart. Nothing that will kill me but the gear has enlarged it a little. Hasn't effected anything either thank god.


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## ECKSRATED

Stop man you're physique is totally different than mine. I'm just a big dumb meathead. You're a ripped lean big dumb meathead lol. You're gonna look even more sick at 260. 

And the diet thing is so true. We all know that but most are too lazy to dial it in and take advantage of the gear we take. I'm one of them. That's why I powerlift hahahaha


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## NbleSavage

Looking good, Cobra. Appreciate the cerebral approach to this trial you're running. Great log - hope you get a solid result.


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## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> Not gonna show my other face...This butt is for you ecks!
> 
> View attachment 3373



Wow, this is very impressive, but damn you're a "worst" guinea pig, with the CONSTANT continued over couple of years heavy usage of anabolics including GH that you run and such physique it'll be hard to asses the effect of a single new drug we add, just as a fair example, lets say now that we add to your stack 300mg of Oxymetholone (6 tabs of Abomb!) a day I don't think it'll have any effect on you in your condition, while this would cause any average athlete to explode

What I was trying to encourage you to do is making some more drastic changes to your regime so we may have better understanding to the Somedin effect, but obviously you work with a pro. You may consult with him though, I'll tell u for instance in your condition where the Somedin may shine based on my experience - lets start with a drastic example - if you go completely off steroids now, what would have cause a drastic muscle lost, with IGF1 it'll be very very minor lost, in some cases no loses at all, if any member likes to trial this I will cooperate BTW, the Somedin's anti catabolic effect is that dramatic in such conditions!
In your case if you do more restricted calories diet which would cause some mass lost and more depleted muscles, with IGF1 you'll negate much of this effect, and actually if you would restrict your daily carbs, and just eat some carbs post workout after the IGF1 usage you'll have some noticeable effect during the day from waking up appearance and above all in training


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## Maijah

sciroxx said:


> Wow, this is very impressive, but damn you're a "worst" guinea pig, with the CONSTANT continued over couple of years heavy usage of anabolics including GH that you run and such physique it'll be hard to asses the effect of a single new drug we add, just as a fair example, lets say now that we add to your stack 300mg of Oxymetholone (6 tabs of Abomb!) a day I don't think it'll have any effect on you in your condition, while this would cause any average athlete to explode
> 
> What I was trying to encourage you to do is making some more drastic changes to your regime so we may have better understanding to the Somedin effect, but obviously you work with a pro. You may consult with him though, I'll tell u for instance in your condition where the Somedin may shine based on my experience - lets start with a drastic example - if you go completely off steroids now, what would have cause a drastic muscle lost, with IGF1 it'll be very very minor lost, in some cases no loses at all, if any member likes to trial this I will cooperate BTW, the Somedin's anti catabolic effect is that dramatic in such conditions!
> In your case if you do more restricted calories diet which would cause some mass lost and more depleted muscles, with IGF1 you'll negate much of this effect, and actually if you would restrict your daily carbs, and just eat some carbs post workout after the IGF1 usage you'll have some noticeable effect during the day from waking up appearance and above all in training



Sounds like you are trying to make excuses as to why cobra won't see these $100 a day gains. I wish the hype surrounding igf1 was legit but it seems to me like it's a pipedream. More of a way for RC companies to rake in the dough. Cobra I'm very interested in this thread and I can't wait to see how you make out.


----------



## sciroxx

Proper effective usage cost 200-400usd a month, cheaper then GH for instance, and BTW cheaper then the AAS stack Cobra is on, pharma companies are used to make a huge margin on  biotech products, so like Cobra said IGF1 by pharma company is much more expensive, Cobra trialed pharma IGF1 such with no effect as he reported, he contacted me and asked to trial our IGF1, I'm happy to cooperate so we'll all learn, any member is welcome to have my assistance
This is a fair honest trial, in which I try to contribute from my experience, I've never endorsed IGF1 as a miracle, but this is a very effective anabolic/anti catabolic agent, with much much much less sides then AAS, which works synergistically with GH and AAS as well,


----------



## NbleSavage

sciroxx said:


> Wow, this is very impressive, but damn you're a "worst" guinea pig, with the CONSTANT continued over couple of years heavy usage of anabolics including GH that you run and such physique it'll be hard to asses the effect of a single new drug we add, just as a fair example, lets say now that we add to your stack 300mg of Oxymetholone (6 tabs of Abomb!) a day I don't think it'll have any effect on you in your condition, while this would cause any average athlete to explode
> 
> What I was trying to encourage you to do is making some more drastic changes to your regime so we may have better understanding to the Somedin effect, but obviously you work with a pro. You may consult with him though, I'll tell u for instance in your condition where the Somedin may shine based on my experience - lets start with a drastic example - if you go completely off steroids now, what would have cause a drastic muscle lost, with IGF1 it'll be very very minor lost, in some cases no loses at all, *if any member likes to trial this I will cooperate BTW, the Somedin's anti catabolic effect is that dramatic in such conditions!*
> In your case if you do more restricted calories diet which would cause some mass lost and more depleted muscles, with IGF1 you'll negate much of this effect, and actually if you would restrict your daily carbs, and just eat some carbs post workout after the IGF1 usage you'll have some noticeable effect during the day from waking up appearance and above all in training



I'll go to a TRT dose and run a cut if you'll sponsor the daily IGF1. Cant be some bullocks like 20 days though as it would take that long for the slow esters to clear and for the cut to start to be effective. How long you thinking?


----------



## sciroxx

We'll need to run lr3 at moderate dosage and DES at a moderate dosage, I think 40 days will give a good indication


----------



## Cobra Strike

Oh so now my trial is just trashed? Lol So basically if you barely work out igf1 is for you but if you have a good foundation it's not worth it?

At 100$ a day change to a physique better happen. Running gear will do plenty for anti catabolism...on a cut I get smaller but im not losing muscle...they are just depleted from a lack of glycogen stores. If I carbed up I could pump those bitches right back to where I was at. I'm not gonna spend 100 a day to fight catabolism that isn't even happening. And the gear I am running isn't even 1g a month. Maybe 300 a month. 

Im feeling like I'm wasting my time now but im going to finish this run because I never quit anything and we will see how the gh tests out.


----------



## sciroxx

What u mean trial trashed? 

First I'll support the cycle till we call it an end, you have more DES on the way boss 

Second we're learning from any experience, me personally appreciate your honest feedback, some members as me were a bit disappointed to see not much of effect so far, so I raised some suggestion, these are things for u to consider, but any experience is a good experience, keep us updated, and hope I was not misunderstood


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> What u mean trial trashed?
> 
> First I'll support the cycle till we call it an end, you have more DES on the way boss
> 
> Second we're learning from any experience, me personally appreciate your honest feedback, some members as me were a bit disappointed to see not much of effect so far, so I raised some suggestion, these are things for u to consider, but any experience is a good experience, keep us updated, and hope I was not misunderstood



I thought you were saying that it's not gonna work for me because of my bb experience level. Then my friend nbl came in and stole my thread haha 

I didn't know you sent more either. So what do you want me to do with the next stuff...continue as I am?


----------



## NbleSavage

We took it to PM, my bad Mate


----------



## gymrat827

ill be a test dummy.  LMK what to run, if you ask Cobra, he and i have been after REAL, LR3 for 3/4/5yrs.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Fukking noble hijacking threads. Lololol


----------



## Cobra Strike

Today was chest day. Lots of high reps, negatives, and a super set to finish. Hit 50mcg in each tata...is it just me or when you look at your chest you just have to molest yourself? Proly just me.

Work out was good...didnt feel anything out of tge ordinary but after reading scrioxxs posts I dont think I will. Looks like I got more des coming though so I will have a little more time to evaluate!


----------



## ECKSRATED

Yea when I look at your chest I wanna molest myself.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> Today was chest day. Lots of high reps, negatives, and a super set to finish. Hit 50mcg in each tata...is it just me or when you look at your chest you just have to molest yourself? Proly just me.
> 
> Work out was good...didnt feel anything out of tge ordinary but after reading scrioxxs posts I dont think I will. Looks like I got more des coming though so I will have a little more time to evaluate!



Question - is your coach assisting u online ? may u tell him that u added IGF1-DES and the producer recommended some alteration in the diet ... will he have the time to cooeperate, maybe I may chat with him, whether directly or indirectly ? I'm certainly not a an expert to nutrition, but I wanna share my opinion


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> Question - is your coach assisting u online ? may u tell him that u added IGF1-DES and the producer recommended some alteration in the diet ... will he have the time to cooeperate, maybe I may chat with him, whether directly or indirectly ? I'm certainly not a an expert to nutrition, but I wanna share my opinion



I have told him...he said that it doesn't matter because it wont do anything because its fake lol 

He doesn't believe in forming a diet around supps. Then only sup that changes the diet is insulin. Nothing else effects macros and timing accept my progress.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> I have told him...he said that it doesn't matter because it wont do anything because its fake lol
> 
> He doesn't believe in forming a diet around supps. Then only sup that changes the diet is insulin. Nothing else effects macros and timing accept my progress.



Lol ... IGF1 alter the metabolism more then insulin (of course insulin requires SPECIAL care in what has to do with carbs around its effect), when taking exogenous IGF1 these effects are additive to the GH as you may see from my former scientific literature.

Pls consult if you may (and you should) get some EAA with Vitargo or such carbs with the somedin


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> Lol ... IGF1 alter the metabolism more then insulin (of course insulin requires SPECIAL care in what has to do with carbs around its effect), when taking exogenous IGF1 these effects are additive to the GH as you may see from my former scientific literature.
> 
> Pls consult if you may (and you should) get some EAA with Vitargo or such carbs with the somedin



I already use EAA in my intra shake and Vitago/Karbolyn I only use with slin. Right now I use dextrose. I cant really go to him and tell him to change my diet because of the IGF bro. Hes not going to give a shit. Hes already an established pro in the super heavy class and has many cards on his team. Hes not going to change his mind based on scientific studies with IGF lol Im not even going to piss him off like that. The IGF will never produce results like insulin does. My diet is pretty dam good already bro and if it doesn't work with my discipline its not going to work. 

Im looking for a reason to spend 100 a day on this my man. I mean at literally 100 a day this shit should be making some serious effects otherwise why would it be worth paying that? People complain at paying 6$ per iu of gh which at 6iu a day is $36. But at $100 a day that is crazy expensive. There is nothing on the market that costs that much.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> I already use EAA in my intra shake and Vitago/Karbolyn I only use with slin. Right now I use dextrose. I cant really go to him and tell him to change my diet because of the IGF bro. Hes not going to give a shit. Hes already an established pro in the super heavy class and has many cards on his team. Hes not going to change his mind based on scientific studies with IGF lol Im not even going to piss him off like that. The IGF will never produce results like insulin does. My diet is pretty dam good already bro and if it doesn't work with my discipline its not going to work.
> 
> Im looking for a reason to spend 100 a day on this my man. I mean at literally 100 a day this shit should be making some serious effects otherwise why would it be worth paying that? People complain at paying 6$ per iu of gh which at 6iu a day is $36. But at $100 a day that is crazy expensive. There is nothing on the market that costs that much.



Where the notion of 100$ (?) came from ? u get descent results with IGF1 for 8-12 usd a day. Certainly much cheaper then GH, and as said even cheaper that the AAS stack you're using.

I'm not here in the position of promoting IGF1 as some ultimate drug at all. You asked to trial it, and I supported it with a great interest, you're far away from the optimal candidate as suggested here  more ever you're not cooperating with my suggestions, but it's your call, it's your show and I'm happy to experiment, I'm grateful that you share you experience on a daily basis period. I'm running several logs at the moment, a couple by pros on other forums, any experience is a good one.

I state that the Somedin I supplied to you is pharma grade. Your coach for instance or you, as well as any member here may lab test it, I know that full independent lab test of IGF1 is NOT illegal in the USA, we may do it, we should do it ! I sell more then 25 AAS products, we make GH, IGF1-lr3 and IGF1-DES, and I market many other pharma products, so I'm not a peptide promoter.
I state that the IGF1 has some effective results with best effects to side effects ratio, it has a great synergistic effect with GH as well as with AAS, this is backed both by science and real life experience
As a comment, I've been asked many times whether one should choose to use GH with AAS or IGF1 with AAS, and I feel that GH is more  fundamental, however effective dosage of GH would cost 2-3 times more, and the IGF1 short run effect is more noticeable, anyhow IGF1 has a great role along with AAS.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Your price for Lr3 is 200 for 1000mcg and des is  200 for 200mcg. That's where I got 100 a day


----------



## thqmas

100 dollars a day? Maybe for permanent results, no less. And certainly not for some anti catabolic effect. I came to believe that real lr3 is just a myth anyway.

Thanks Cobra and good luck with your quest.


----------



## NbleSavage

Anyone find human studies validating the claims of hyperplasia? So far all I've been able to uncover is anecdotal reports and Rich Piana...


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> Your price for Lr3 is 200 for 1000mcg and des is  200 for 200mcg. That's where I got 100 a day



Price is 200usd per kit - itcontains 5 vials of 200mcg each, so if you like to aim to 100mcg a day it's 20usd a day. Most normal users will enjoy from 40-60mcg a day, you're quite a monster bro, so yes need 100mcg. We offer on various forums deals of 2+1 and even 1+1, so the price reduced to 10usd (!!!) a day for monsters, and 5-6 usd (!!!) to average users ..... peanuts .....


----------



## sciroxx

NbleSavage said:


> Anyone find human studies validating the claims of hyperplasia? So far all I've been able to uncover is anecdotal reports and Rich Piana...



You'll find in vitro studies to confirm and support this, no one ever took an athlete, got a biopsy of muscle tissue before and after IGF1 usage to check the hyperplasia effect


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> Price is 200usd per kit - itcontains 5 vials of 200mcg each, so if you like to aim to 100mcg a day it's 20usd a day. Most normal users will enjoy from 40-60mcg a day, you're quite a monster bro, so yes need 100mcg. We offer on various forums deals of 2+1 and even 1+1, so the price reduced to 10usd (!!!) a day for monsters, and 5-6 usd (!!!) to average users ..... peanuts .....



ahhh On the list it says the lr3 is 5 vials a kit but the des didn't say 5 vials. Be a lot better at a 5 vial price lol

Hit the biceps today. 50mcg in each peak 7 min before the work out. Injecting into the bicep is a lot easier than I thought but hell its an insulin pin...you could probably inject your cock and not feel it. Work out was good. Always get a really good burn on bicep day. Not much to note as far as the IGF goes but its early.


----------



## ToolSteel

I've hit tne in bi's with slin pins. It's not as bad as it sounds once the burning stops lol


----------



## DocDePanda187123

NbleSavage said:


> Anyone find human studies validating the claims of hyperplasia? So far all I've been able to uncover is anecdotal reports and Rich Piana...



https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/forums/12-Peptides-And-Growth-Hormone


----------



## Cobra Strike

DocDePanda187123 said:


> https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/forums/12-Peptides-And-Growth-Hormone



Doc...what are your thoughts on igf?


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> Price is 200usd per kit - itcontains 5 vials of 200mcg each, so if you like to aim to 100mcg a day it's 20usd a day. Most normal users will enjoy from 40-60mcg a day, you're quite a monster bro, so yes need 100mcg. We offer on various forums deals of 2+1 and even 1+1, so the price reduced to 10usd (!!!) a day for monsters, and 5-6 usd (!!!) to average users ..... peanuts .....



Dude your no different than the rest who claim theirs is different and actually real.  

And had I not been at this 4yrs now, on the hunt, I may have tried yours.  But after buying bac water over n over for right around a bill each, I've going to save my coins and roll with just tes or tes based stuff.  

Real gh is always there if you want it too


----------



## sciroxx

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post here lab tests from other forums, I've had dozens of random lab tests from customers (on the GH, the IGF1-lr3 or IGF1-DES can't be tested on a serum test), all the tests are flawless, the Somastim (GH) was also tested by 2 major organizations independently to exceed pharma grade standards. The Somedin (IGF1) is cheaper to manufacture actually, and we produce it on the same facility as the GH in a western country. This is the difference between us and most if not all internet sources, we produce.

If any one knows of any lab he trusts send there a sample from Cobra or any customer and I'll pay for the tests.

Anyhow I PMed you few days ago and asked if you like to trial it, so far no response from u


----------



## DreamChaser

Glad I didn't miss this


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> Doc...what are your thoughts on igf?



My personal opinion is in that link Cobra. 

I agree that IGF1 plays a role in both anabolism and anti-catabolism and plays a role In the mTor and AMPK pathways. This is to say, it's a critical component of both anabolic and  anti-catabolic processes but only in a certain window. Having supraphysiological levels of it has yet to be proven to be beneficial towards hypertrophy. I posted a few studies/excerpts in that link that lend evidence to this opinion. Maybe there might be some synergy when AAS, HGH, and insulin are all added alongside the IGF1 but then at that point you have to question which compound is providing the results when you're running that much shit. Can you even be sure the IGF1 is doing anything? I've also seen some evidence showing how igf1 acts differently dependin upon the age of the person in question. That is, the effects in children is vastly different than that of adults. 

Bottom line I think it's just not something that will do much or anything at all. If you're running good HGH you'll already have high levels of IGF1 and HGH has some proven benefits independent of the IGF1 pathway. My recommendation would be do spend the money elsewhere on other compounds. I'm not sold on IGF 1


----------



## sciroxx

Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
-------------------
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466

GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

--------------------------------------
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.

METHODS:

Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.

RESULTS:

Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.

CONCLUSIONS:

Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> Doc...what are your thoughts on igf?



Sorry Cobra, that link was to the HGH forum here. 

This is the link I should have posted 

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/22196-GH-IGF1-and-should-I-combine-them


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
> -------------------
> ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
> 
> GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
> 
> Abstract
> BACKGROUND:
> Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.
> 
> METHODS:
> 
> Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.
> 
> RESULTS:
> 
> Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
> 
> CONCLUSIONS:
> 
> Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.



I'm not saying you can't be right about IGF 1, just that there isn't enough evidence to sway me as of yet. Until that point I cannot make a leap of logic to support it in good conscience. It's entirely possible I'm wrong but I don't see enough evidence to disprove my opinion and prove yours. 

I've posted already about you point on patients who need anabolic/catabolic treatment. Yes igf 1 helped catholic patients but interestingly enough, it did nothing for non-catabolic patients who are an even closer application to our goals than your catabolic patients. 

Also, here is the human study I'd post to counter your two rat studies sir:



DocDePanda187123 said:


> Despite the observations of an effect of GH and IGF-I on protein synthesis, the fact remains that gains in muscle mass are not observed in healthy subjects after long-term GH administration so any benefits are unlikely to be due to muscle mass gains. In the GH plus exercise groups, circulating IGF-I levels and fat-free mass were consistently increased in comparison to placebo groups. Thus, it is possible to extrapolate that increasing circulating IGF-I would also be without consequence for muscle mass in healthy humans. Administration of IGF-I acutely activates muscle protein synthesis (Fryburg et al., 1995), but similarly to GH a 1-year administration did not result in increased lean body mass (Friedlander et al., 2001). The effects of GH on fat-free mass may be due to water retention, which is a known side effect of GH administration, or to an increase in soft tissue due to the stimulatory effects of GH on collagen synthesis.
> 
> In summary, normal GH/IGF-I function does have a role in the development and maintenance of muscle mass, as gathered from evidence in GH-deficient patients, burn patients, hypophysectomized animals, and animal models in which GH receptor and IGF-IR activity are lacking. GH or IGF-I administration have, however, no proven benefits for muscle mass in healthy subjects in whom GH function is normal (Figure 3). In most animal studies, GH is administered while the animals are still growing and this may confound the results in comparison to administration in fully grown animals. In addition, the species differences between rodents and humans in the functioning of the GH/IGF-I axis must be taken into account. Studies with transgenic and knockout animals are also complicated by the fact that the embryonic development of the tissue can be affected and this can have different consequences to altering gene expression once the animal has reached maturity.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/#!po=15.3061



Regardless of where we differ in opinion, I respect your efforts to use science and objective based evidence to argue your position. For that you have earned my respect.


----------



## sciroxx

Thank u doc, for the info and the explanation, there are many parameters involved, for instance these individuals weren't engaged in any exercise regime, didn't alter diet etc'
I agree that using GH by itself is not as effective as one would expect, combining AAS with GH as well as with IGF1 will change the picture, and these have a very pronounced synergistic effect


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Thank u doc, for the info and the explanation, there are many parameters involved, for instance these individuals weren't engaged in any exercise regime, didn't alter diet etc'
> I agree that using GH by itself is not as effective as one would expect, combining AAS with GH as well as with IGF1 will change the picture, and these have a very pronounced synergistic effect



I agree there's no perfect study on this and it's not the easiest thing to draw extrapolations from the available studies. 

As to your point about patients not training or not dieting etc I would argue that it's still more applicable than the rat studies you cited here simply bc studying something on humans will always more closely replicate things than something studied on another species. Also, there are a couple studies that to my knowledge show testosterone increases muscle mass and strength without concomittant exercise. 

I also believe HGH is more synergistic with insulin use than with IGF1.


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
> -------------------
> ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
> 
> GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
> 
> Abstract
> BACKGROUND:
> Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.
> 
> METHODS:
> 
> Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.
> 
> RESULTS:
> 
> Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
> 
> CONCLUSIONS:
> 
> Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.



when have you ever heard of a cancer patient, aids, Whatever X muscle wasting disease and the person gets put on IGF instead of GH......???


----------



## sciroxx

gymrat827 said:


> when have you ever heard of a cancer patient, aids, Whatever X muscle wasting disease and the person gets put on IGF instead of GH......???



The experiment above checked the effect of IGF1 by itself and in combination with GH on such patient, but yes the GH is the conventional treatment for such conditions, IGF1 is still in the exploring level, and actually clinically used only in rare conditions of dwarfism


----------



## Cobra Strike

I always love reading scientific arguments. My arguments are always boring/ignorant and go something like....Whatever you nerd jockey take your science and shove it because Im right anyway" lol

So yesterday was Sunday. The day of rest. No training, No gh, No IGF, only diet and football...which suckd ass

Today was legs. 50mcg in each quad. Typical leg work out. One thing I think I have noticed is that I am looking thicker and fuller lately and the cut is comin along nicely. It wont be long now until my shoulder veins are just out without having to work out or flex. My stomach is starting to flatten as well. Im not sure if any of this has anything to do with the synergy of the IGF and the gh or if its simply from the diet and AAS? 

Im definitely loving this cut though. My initial goal was just to drop to 10% and then hit the bulk but right now I am just enjoying the tightening up so 8% is now the goal. Never seen my traps so dam shredded before either....and my girl is starting to act all jealous and shit. Asking me how I know girls that are fb friend requesting me ect ect. To be honest these girls are just people I have met like other business or marketing contacts shit like that..not sexual AT ALL! I think the cuts are getting to her now that Im not just a big smelly hairy ogre anymore..still smelly though! On that note here is a little story about last night. 

We are chillin on the couch watching the new episode of Walking Dead (which pissed me the fuk off when they (SPOILER ALERT) showed glenn getting killed and his eye is all busted out then trying to make rick cut his own boys arm off...I would have lost it and just tried to kill that prick even though I would have gotten killed...never would I cut my boys arm off..everyone would have to die.) Ok sorry for the tangent....anyway we had a blanket over us and I dropped a lil silent bomb....we had like 10 minutes left of the show so figured it would dissipate. After the show I couldn't really smell it. I went to the basement to chug some var and winni, came back up stairs and got my ass chewed out. She said shes sick of smelling shit everywhere in the house and that im fkn nasty and she don't want to touch me anymore. I just ignored her. I mean what am I going to do? Its natural I cant help it. So today I sent her flowers with a note that said "these are to make the first part of your day better and hopefully make up for the second part of the day (when shes home with me) lol ya I know how to make her smile 

Ok well time to get back to work...there is the extended and TMI update for the day!!


----------



## tunafisherman

you have dedication I do not....not only a huge blast for over 6 months, but 22 eggs a day???  My wife would kill me if I ate that many...haha.

Subbing to this to see your report and progress.


----------



## Cobra Strike

tunafisherman said:


> you have dedication I do not....not only a huge blast for over 6 months, but 22 eggs a day???  My wife would kill me if I ate that many...haha.
> 
> Subbing to this to see your report and progress.



I don't eat them bro...I drink them. Muscleegg.com EGG10 gets you 10%off which means free shipping basically lol The pumpkin spice is to die for!!! 

Its not really dedication to me. Its more like slavery. I am more scared to lose what I have then dedicated to keep it so I keep busting ass to keep it. Which then I think well if I am going to do this then I may as well fkn do it or I am just wasting my time which is part of the slavery that makes me seem dedicated...not sure if you can follow all that but ya my head is messed up and I think I took to much Adderall tonight lol


----------



## Cobra Strike

Lats today. 50mcg in each. They are sore right now


----------



## Cobra Strike

Trained shoulder yesterday and chest today...50mcg in each muscle. The thread is going to become boring because not a whole lot changes that fast. This is why I don't do logs...your reporting the same thing everyday lol

both these workouts were normal. Sunday I will take measurements again. Next week I will be getting the IGF test done on the somastims...cant wait to see those results!!!


----------



## gh0st

ill be following this!

i love peptides and lr3 i'd love to put together some IGF mass spec testing! if we could get some guys to donate and if anyone else would be interested in this besides myself!

a lot of fake IGF out there.


----------



## gymrat827

Cobra Strike said:


> Trained shoulder yesterday and chest today...50mcg in each muscle. The thread is going to become boring because not a whole lot changes that fast. This is why I don't do logs...your reporting the same thing everyday lol
> 
> both these workouts were normal. Sunday I will take measurements again. Next week I will be getting the IGF test done on the somastims...cant wait to see those results!!!




im interested in that test


----------



## NbleSavage

x2 - looking forward to the Somastims lab work.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Hit biceps and forearms yesterday. Had some good pumps but nothing above ordinary. 

Got my requisition papers from PML and I go in Tuesday morning. Should have the results back by Friday.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> Hit biceps and forearms yesterday. Had some good pumps but nothing above ordinary.
> 
> Got my requisition papers from PML and I go in Tuesday morning. Should have the results back by Friday.



It's snot in the pump bro, it's in the mirror bro - update us with your progress and measurements 

Thank u for the consistent honest feedback


----------



## Maijah

sciroxx said:


> It's snot in the pump bro, it's in the mirror bro - update us with your progress and measurements
> 
> Thank u for the consistent honest feedback



I though that the pumps were suppose to be so insane that you almost couldn't finish your workout?


----------



## sciroxx

Maijah said:


> I though that the pumps were suppose to be so insane that you almost couldn't finish your workout?



We've discussed it earlier on the thread, this hype started when Rich Piana posted some video in which he said that back on the day on the 90s when he used "real" IGF1 he got insane pumps. IGF1 increases red cell count and is very anabolic by its nature so it'll certainly increase pumps, but androgens and GH will carry this effect as well based on the same mechanism, IGF1 doesn't have some magic effect on pumps, it doesn't effect or interacts directly with nitric oxide or such. I've been talking to many pros, you may see some of their posts on other major forums in related to the Somedin, and what they tend to witness is a sense of fullness of the muscles while losing fat, usually while losing fat you experience somewhat more depleted muscle tissue
Cobra is is taking a heavy AAS + GH cycle year round, so no one would expect something very dramatic here, but of course I let him report, so far so good


----------



## Maijah

I'm not trying to be combative, I just think that it's a complete waste of $$$. A bottle of test will give you waaaaaay better results than a protocol of IGF1.


----------



## sciroxx

Maijah said:


> I'm not trying to be combative, I just think that it's a complete waste of $$$. A bottle of test will give you waaaaaay better results than a protocol of IGF1.



You're comparing apples to oranges here 

If one accept the associated side effects (and I'll specify later on this regard) of androgens then he may benefit more noticeable short term results per $ with testosterones, but it's not the concern here, there is no "one instead the other" equation here, testosterone works in a synergistic manners with exogenous IGF1 and the IGF1 may offer some benefits that no other drug may do, it's not cheap, but also not that expensive and will cost 120-240 in average to use per month.

IGF1 certainly doesn't carry even close to the side effect and health risking impact that androgens do, when one is using even one vial of test he literally shut down his body's testosterone production, and prone to all the associated side effects including estrogen side effects, blood lipid and cholesterol raised levels etc. IGF1 doesn't carry any noticeable side effect, and if combined with GH will optimize metabolism and counter the GH hyper glycemic effect which encourages directly insulin resistance


----------



## Maijah

sciroxx said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges here
> 
> If one accept the associated side effects (and I'll specify later on this regard) of androgens then he may benefit more noticeable short term results per $ with testosterones, but it's not the concern here, there is no "one instead the other" equation here, testosterone works in a synergistic manners with exogenous IGF1 and the IGF1 may offer some benefits that no other drug may do, it's not cheap, but also not that expensive and will cost 120-240 in average to use per month.
> 
> IGF1 certainly doesn't carry even close to the side effect and health risking impact that androgens do, when one is using even one vial of test he literally shut down his body's testosterone production, and prone to all the associated side effects including estrogen side effects, blood lipid and cholesterol raised levels etc. IGF1 doesn't carry any noticeable side effect, and if combined with GH will optimize metabolism and counter the GH hyper glycemic effect which encourages directly insulin resistance



Yeah but apparently it does nothing at all....


----------



## Maijah

Atleast nothing that one can see in the gym or the mirror so how can you justify paying that kinda $ for something that has zero noticeable effects , positive or negative.


----------



## sciroxx

Maijah said:


> Atleast nothing that one can see in the gym or the mirror so how can you justify paying that kinda $ for something that has zero noticeable effects , positive or negative.



It does, I get very favorable feedback constantly, u may check out thread on it on more then few major forums, this is our experience, and we've been working for more then a dozen of years with almost any anabolic, I may fairly say that I sell about dozen times more stero then peptides, but this thread is on IGF1, and I know of its unique effect and try to aim there.

Cobra is a very heavy user of anabolics, on a continuous cycle for a couple of years, so not always u may expect dramatic results, if I were u I would trial and learn for myself, anyhow I can't convince no one, I may encourage honest feedback to be posted, this is my job


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> It does, I get very favorable feedback constantly, u may check out thread on it on more then few major forums, this is our experience, and we've been working for more then a dozen of years with almost any anabolic, I may fairly say that I sell about dozen times more stero then peptides, but this thread is on IGF1, and I know of its unique effect and try to aim there.
> 
> Cobra is a very heavy user of anabolics, on a continuous cycle for a couple of years, so not always u may expect dramatic results, if I were u I would trial and learn for myself, anyhow I can't convince no one, I may encourage honest feedback to be posted, this is my job



bud im natty, have been for a 1.5 yrs........Ill run a log for you.  Again, i've been an active LR3 hunter for a while.  Ive used all the good GH in the past 3/4/5 yrs too


----------



## Maijah

I'd love to see the results


----------



## sciroxx

gymrat827 said:


> bud im natty, have been for a 1.5 yrs........Ill run a log for you.  Again, i've been an active LR3 hunter for a while.  Ive used all the good GH in the past 3/4/5 yrs too



Wrote to u boss


----------



## Cobra Strike

Sorry for the lack of updates. Ive been very busy with things this last week and I have another week ahead of me. So far everything I have been doing is the same...diet/cardio/gear and rest of supps. In a week or so I will be dropping my carbs and cals a little so I am curious to see if the anti catabolic properties will be there. So far all my measurements are the same.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Got the blood drawn today...pretty anxious to see the results.

tomorrow I will run out of Igf1. Not sure when the other kit gets here but I hope it's soon!!!


----------



## sciroxx

U have the track number - check it out


----------



## ron1204

common man dying to see the results!!


----------



## NbleSavage

I'm curious to know if the IGF1 has made a bit of difference. I think its fair to say that most who would use such a product are looking for size, strength or both. I'd also go so far to say that most who would use IGF1 are *PROBABLY* also running some other type of gear - exogenous Test at a minimum - which IMO makes Cobra a good test subject.

Wondering if there's been any noteworthy transformation either in the mirror or in the gym.


----------



## sciroxx

You're all welcome to talk to this guy BTW

Cobra - u need to contact the courier service for coming supply ! they may make mistake if not

Tks for the attention


----------



## gymrat827

Cobra Strike said:


> Got the blood drawn today...pretty anxious to see the results.
> 
> tomorrow I will run out of Igf1. Not sure when the other kit gets here but I hope it's soon!!!



Dude wtf??  Ur killing some with suspense.  

Numbers....!


----------



## Cobra Strike

ok test results are in. I'm not very pleased with the results. 3iu am 3iu pm for over a month I should have easily been in the 400+ range...easily. 139 isn't even supraphysiological...its below the normal level. So at this time I have to be completely honest and state that I believe that the gh I have been taking isnt real. I dont feel that it's even underdosed. It's well beyond underdosed. This is why we run these trials though to find out.

IGF1 has made no changes in the mirror or in the gym either for those who are curious. 

we will see what scrioxx has to say about this I guess.


----------



## sciroxx

I thought you're taking GH serum test either.

First the quality is guaranteed, u may test it at any lab, now and always

Take GH serum so we get a better indication, and I'll explain a bit with your permission

Now to speculations - 

- The GH triggers secretion of IGF mainly from the liver, if the liver is damaged, just as an example it may lower the response

-  I quote now - 

Studies show that the use of igf-1 lr3 (true for other IGF derivatives like the DES)  in combination with exogenous GH actually reduces the total area under the curve in regards to the amount of IGF-1 produced. In other words, lr3 will decrease the amount of igf-1 produced by GH administration.

I'm very confident with the products you got, as suggested them you may google Amino Acid analysis test - and send to any lab

I assume that the GH serum score will give an indication that nothing is underdosed. Anyhow the serum tests do give an indication, this is far away from an absolute quantification

Let me give u 2 examples posted this week on my products (I also market Novotrop)

customer tests the GH every month actually, this is from last few days - he takes 10iu a day and the IGF1 is 230 which is much lower than the average u would expect, while the GH serum score repeatedly shows superphamacological values as you may see

 From last couple of day you actually see the opposite  a customer got very not impressive GH serum test, so one may speculate the GH is underdosed, but on 6iu a day his IGF1 score is above 500, which indicates on s superpharmacological GH effect

I will later give more valid examples, just don't want to overload with info, it'll be interesting to see the GH score


----------



## sciroxx

, it was posted a couple of weeks ago, a customer took Genotropin straight from the pharmacy, 8 iu a day, with IGF1 serum of 172. 

Don't get me wrong - the serum tests are an important tool and do give a valuable indication, but still there are many factors involved which may lead to some anomalies


----------



## ECKSRATED

Waste of money. If it was that good you'd know by the mirror.


----------



## Cobra Strike

I have never said I was taking the serum test. The serum test can be faked. You can see a spike in serum but it doesn't mean it's good. The igf test is the one true test that proves quality. I spent over a month of my time and used all the gh I bought from you when I took this test. ample time for high igf readings. I also wasn't going to waste 10iu Wii and money on a serum test that can be innacurate.

139 is basically my baseline igf level. No matter what the serum test says the igf test trumps all


----------



## sciroxx

You have a baseline ? lets say a month before this test ? pls show me now.

I'm here to ensure you're satisfied and offer any support, obviously the first part is not going so well... but if you think that knowing you will test and post I would send u anything but perfect quality is ridiculous of course, you may now and always send a vial to full lab test and we'll learn, you may take a serum test with 3iu as well, I estimate nthat the GH should be between 3-7 with it, it is usually zero without GH, and we get another indication.

It's true as a crude rule what  you say that the IGF1 gives more of an indication to the actual clinical effect of the GH, but as I explained there are many factors involved.

When thinking about it I had last year a similar story on another forum, let me try to get this guy here, so he'll tell u directly from his experience, it was very interesting, and well documented


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Agreed with CS. 

While there is nothing wrong with getting both IGF and serum done, I'm an igf guy over a serum guy all day. Bloods don't lie, so if CS ran them as he says then it's D amn near impossible to argue the results here. So, if Greys testing at 2 iu or so a day came back at over 400 igf by themselves, and serum tests come back damn near accurately dosed between 9-10iu per vial, without running igf-lr3,  and if running igf-lr3 lowers igf production from greys, that's a near 75% drop from running igf-lr3 to get them to the levels that CS just tested at. Being honest, if I ran GH at 6iu a day, split dosing, I would expect some outstanding igf levels, regardless of whether I was running igf lr3. Not trying to be an asshole here but if I spent the money and ran 6iu a day of GH and igf lr3 added to it and I got a score back of 139 I would be pretty ****ing unhappy. I'm no scientist, but it Appears to me that either the GH is bunk or the IGF-LR3 is bunk. Or both. Going to be very hard to explain and support otherwise 

No real surprise here, finding real igf is like trying to find straight porn in FDs skin bin.


----------



## sciroxx

This is your score GuerillaKilla - you may never of course reflect from your individual result to someone else, you may see widely various results on the links I posted just to learn


----------



## thqmas

Look sciroxx, I read it all, I read it twice... then I read it a couple of times again. And I'm not special in any way. Most of us are well educated on the matter at hand (GH and IGF-1).

Let's talk about the facts: I never heard anyone say that IGF-1 gave them any advantage. Sure, must of this guys use slin and GH, and yet.

I really don't want to try and sound smart or anything, on the contrary, I want to dumb it down and just ask: Why isn't it working? - simple answer pls.

I'm dumb, you are smart, OK? You need to find an easy, simple, dumb way of explaining to me why me, cobra and all my other friend have never seen anything from that stuff. Remember that we, the dumb ppl, are the majority.



sciroxx said:


> ....Don't get me wrong - the serum tests are an important tool and do give a valuable indication....



Ok, fair enough... But what about:



Cobra Strike said:


> ...IGF1 has made no changes in the mirror or in the gym either for those who are curious...



And how about:



Cobra Strike said:


> ....3iu am 3iu pm for over a month I should have easily been in the 400+ range...easily. 139 isn't even supraphysiological...its below the normal level....



Vs:



sciroxx said:


> ...but on 6iu a day his IGF1 score is above 500, which indicates on s superpharmacological GH effect...



A liver can't be that damaged (wont produced endocrines?)


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Well considering both myself and a doc ran the same greys and he ran them at 2iu and myself at 1.5iu for the sake of HRT testing, and his came back at 410-420 and mine came back in the high 300's, I'd say it's pretty comparable. 

Also, since you are throwing out other folks testing results and scores and serum tests, I agree--one person is not a reflection of another's possible results. That being said, sure looks like the trend here is that the references you provided to contrast/explain the test results CS got back seem to be the exception not the rule. Nearly everyone I know in the history of running GH had a score that reflected much higher igf results when running GH than what CS showed running yours. 

I am already an honor student at my remedial school for slow kids.


----------



## John Ziegler

Is eroids a legit reliable source for information ?


----------



## sciroxx

Fair enough.

First I've just asked from a vet on couple of other forums to tell by his words on the experience we had on IGF1 (and GH and full lab analysis in an authorized lab in Swiss), I much prefer that he'll tell u, I'm also not a native speaker, I hope he may join today. Yes indeed the individual response to fine pharma grade GH may score lower then 139 like Cobra did. Not common at all, but we've certainly seen this

Regarding the IGF1 effect. I respect Cobra report, and I'm sorry to learn that he didn't got the effect some of you may expect, I may get here to speculations and explanations, and they will be valid to some extent, but we all understand that this is one personal experience. In general and I supply a couple of dozens of orders per day, few of them with IGF1) the IGF1 is very popular and in the majority it carries a pronounced effect, and the best indication is that they come back for more. I showed already just as an example an opposite experience from this week - but again it's my job to endorse such products, so everyone should trial and see. I don't think I'm allowed to post here selling offers, but you like any one else may contact me, test and report so we'll get a broader net of experience, afterall the IGF1 causes relatively very low side effects, especially for the long run, and compared to steroids


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> You have a baseline ? lets say a month before this test ? pls show me now.
> 
> I'm here to ensure you're satisfied and offer any support, obviously the first part is not going so well... but if you think that knowing you will test and post I would send u anything but perfect quality is ridiculous of course, you may now and always send a vial to full lab test and we'll learn, you may take a serum test with 3iu as well, I estimate nthat the GH should be between 3-7 with it, it is usually zero without GH, and we get another indication.
> 
> It's true as a crude rule what  you say that the IGF1 gives more of an indication to the actual clinical effect of the GH, but as I explained there are many factors involved.
> 
> When thinking about it I had last year a similar story on another forum, let me try to get this guy here, so he'll tell u directly from his experience, it was very interesting, and well documented



I took my baseline years ago b4 running gh and it was about this level. I don't have those results  on hand anymore I just remember them...just like I know my baseline test levels were 746 before I ever used gear 8 some years ago


----------



## sciroxx

Zeigler said:


> Is eroids a legit reliable source for information ?



They have there a dedicated section for lab tests, they monitor heavily frauds and scams, they generally or at least officially seek for the customer favor and quite harsh on the sources, this is a forum which includes all the sources in the world ..... so yes I think it gives an indication

Just to show u an example for a fraud test (on my product!) and the member was banned -


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> I took my baseline years ago b4 running gh and it was about this level. I don't have those results  on hand anymore I just remember them...just like I know my baseline test levels were 746 before I ever used gear 8 some years ago



That what I though, potentially it may mislead us, anyhow I'm on your side, I suggest to test the GH, no need to spend 10iu for this

And above all we may test in a real lab the GH, u know what it'll be more interesting to test the IGF1 (these tests are not cheap) as many suspect it's not real or pharma grade


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> That what I though, potentially it may mislead us, anyhow I'm on your side, I suggest to test the GH, no need to spend 10iu for this
> 
> And above all we may test in a real lab the GH, u know what it'll be more interesting to test the IGF1 (these tests are not cheap) as many suspect it's not real or pharma grade



lol I dont have access to such labs to have testing such as this done. I'm out of the gh you sent me and on to testing another sources gh right now. I got a month on that starting tomorrow. I'm not a huge fan of reviews or tests on other sites as they can all be fabricated...I only wanted to test this for my guys on this board..I dont care about other boards. Everyone here who knows me knows I would never fake info or sell out to anyone which is why I feel my test is trusted here 100%. I understand this is one guys experience but I'm not some special guy who doesn't respond to gh. I've seen my levels in the 500s b4.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra Strike said:


> lol I dont have access to such labs to have testing such as this done. I'm out of the gh you sent me and on to testing another sources gh right now. I got a month on that starting tomorrow. I'm not a huge fan of reviews or tests on other sites as they can all be fabricated...I only wanted to test this for my guys on this board..I dont care about other boards. Everyone here who knows me knows I would never fake info or sell out to anyone which is why I feel my test is trusted here 100%. I understand this is one guys experience but I'm not some special guy who doesn't respond to gh. I've seen my levels in the 500s b4.



First any member may google and find such lab, I'll finance it, or at least support it to some serious degree.

Second I know you're honest, and I appreciate the feedback whatever it is. I said and I say again that I'm very confident with the quality I offer and encourage anyone and every one to trial and report. 

I will appreciate if we may take the GH serum as well to get further indication


----------



## ToolSteel

Everything else aside; I give sciroxx credit for staying professional and polite in his posts. 

Carry on.


----------



## Maijah

Unfortunately this turned out exactly the way I didn't want it to. C.R.E.A.M dolla dolla bills yall......


----------



## Cobra Strike

sciroxx said:


> First any member may google and find such lab, I'll finance it, or at least support it to some serious degree.
> 
> Second I know you're honest, and I appreciate the feedback whatever it is. I said and I say again that I'm very confident with the quality I offer and encourage anyone and every one to trial and report.
> 
> I will appreciate if we may take the GH serum as well to get further indication



send me another vial and 60$ and I will serum test it. otherwise I'm pretty much at my conclusion with the product. I don't have any gh left and I'm not gonna waste any more money to pay for a serum test after the igf test came back like that.

It's kind of a one and done thing when you get results back like that. 

also this is america..I don't feel comfortable sending illegal products to a lab for testing...if the product is illegal the test is most likely illegal as well.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

There's something wrong with the HGH. A GH serum at this point is worthless. Actual analytical testing could be of value. 

Looks like the IGF-1 product wasn't good either.


----------



## sciroxx

No worries, quality will not lie for long, I'll try to get to the root of it with Cobra, and I'll be happy if more may trial and test, hope no mod will be mad now, worst case it may be deleted and I'll take it as a warn, but I'll offer 50% discount and free products for free for the costs of the test for any member who likes to serum test the somastim


----------



## thqmas

sciroxx said:


> ... best indication is that they come back for more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. That's not the best indication. I don't say that what you sell is bunk. I say that It doesn't seem to give any effect to heavy users. It's like adding an egg to ones diet and telling him the protein from the egg will give him drastic results. Sure, the egg has protein, it's not a "bunk egg", but will it cause major changes to ones body? Maybe to the average Joe.
> 
> Edit: yes TS, gotta give him credit for that and for all he's done here so far. This is a great thread.
Click to expand...


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> No worries, quality will not lie for long, I'll try to get to the root of it with Cobra, and I'll be happy if more may trial and test, hope no mod will be mad now, worst case it may be deleted and I'll take it as a warn, but I'll offer 50% discount and free products for free for the costs of the test for any member who likes to serum test the somastim



We don't delete threads here for no reason. No one will delete this thread. 

Also, be careful where you're advertising. This isn't the underground forum.


----------



## Cobra Strike

thqmas said:


> sciroxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... best indication is that they come back for more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. That's not the best indication. I don't say that what you sell is bunk. I say that It doesn't seem to give any effect to heavy users. It's like adding an egg to ones diet and telling him the protein from the egg will give him drastic results. Sure, the egg has protein, it's not a "bunk egg", but will it cause major changes to ones body? Maybe to the average Joe.
> 
> Edit: yes TS, gotta give him credit for that and for all he's done here so far. This is a great thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there is any protien in these eggs brother...but way to stay positive lol
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## gymrat827

Cobra Strike said:


> thqmas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sciroxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... best indication is that they come back for more.
> 
> I dont think there is any protien in these eggs brother...but way to stay positive lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  Correct on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sciroxx

Docdepanda - Your advise to get an analysis is right one, if u may find a lab I'm in, Cobra raised some legality concerns, so for my best knowledge the IGF1-DES may be tested with no prob just to get an indication


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Docdepanda - Your advise to get an analysis is right one, if u may find a lab I'm in, Cobra raised some legality concerns, so for my best knowledge the IGF1-DES may be tested with no prob just to get an indication



An AAA with HPLC would be the only testing worth doing at this point.

To comment about your post regarding a damaged liver: 

There would be indications in other blood work to show such extensive damage that IGF isn't being secreted from HGH administration IMO. AST, ALT, bilirubin, etc. Cobra I believe monitors these pretty frequently and would have known about a possibly damaged liver. 

To comment on the high GH serum score with average IGF response:

All this means is the GH is partially real. If it isn't raising IGF then there is no biological response to the HGH which means something with the AA sequence is not right. It could be the order/arrangement, an AA missing, etc. A high GH serum without an accompanying high IGF score is basically worthless HGH.


----------



## sciroxx

Yes indeed doc - AAA anaysis by HPLC will asses the purity, exact protein configuration (to ensure 191AA HGH) and quantification. I STATE CLEARLY THAT I'LL FINANCE IT, AND I BACK UP THE QUALITY BY ANY AMOUNT

On few other forums we've gather a great experience with all sort of serum tests, for instance on prom there is a dedicated thread with more then 160,000 views on this, last year a vet there (this is the guy I asked to come here and tell a bit) tested the Somastim ... his IGF1 was 119 which is very low, we had exactly the same argument as we have here, lucky me we've had dozens of former tests on the Somastim which perfect scores, so he happily cooperated and made 3 GH serum tests all between 20-21 following the known protocol, so after all there was proper quantity of GH inside, after few months he sent by chance samples to SIMEC Swiss (an authorized lab) and the product was tested perfectly, ALL GH FROM THE SAME EXACT BATCH AND ORDER. I hope he'll come later on.

I posted yesterday lab tests from last week that shows IGF1 on 238 on 10iu GH a day, but the customer tested GH at 28, there are some anomalies with serum tests, I've encountered it more then several times. I don't pretend to be an expert in endocrinology, to try and explain the mechanism behind it, and I wouldn't necessarily blame the liver values, but this is a valid speculation we gathered on professionalmuscle with some tsters who responded with low IGF1 score, we actually proved it to some degree, you may check it there

Lets test the AA seq at least, which will be cheaper then full tests, so you may all see, doc I'll be happy if u guide it


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Yes indeed doc - AAA anaysis by HPLC will asses the purity, exact protein configuration (to ensure 191AA HGH) and quantification. I STATE CLEARLY THAT I'LL FINANCE IT, AND I BACK UP THE QUALITY BY ANY AMOUNT
> 
> On few other forums we've gather a great experience with all sort of serum tests, for instance on prom there is a dedicated thread with more then 160,000 views on this, last year a vet there (this is the guy I asked to come here and tell a bit) tested the Somastim ... his IGF1 was 119 which is very low, we had exactly the same argument as we have here, lucky me we've had dozens of former tests on the Somastim which perfect scores, so he happily cooperated and made 3 GH serum tests all between 20-21 following the known protocol, so after all there was proper quantity of GH inside, after few months he sent by chance samples to SIMEC Swiss (an authorized lab) and the product was tested perfectly, ALL GH FROM THE SAME EXACT BATCH AND ORDER. I hope he'll come later on.
> 
> I posted yesterday lab tests from last week that shows IGF1 on 238 on 10iu GH a day, but the customer tested GH at 28, there are some anomalies with serum tests, I've encountered it more then several times. I don't pretend to be an expert in endocrinology, to try and explain the mechanism behind it, and I wouldn't necessarily blame the liver values, but this is a valid speculation we gathered on professionalmuscle with some tsters who responded with low IGF1 score, we actually proved it to some degree, you may check it there
> 
> Lets test the AA seq at least, which will be cheaper then full tests, so you may all see, doc I'll be happy if u guide it



Muscle96ss is who you're talking about?

As I stated before, the GH serum score is basically worthless without an accompanying raise in IGF. there are several analogues and secretatogues out there that can raise serum GH from what I've seen but they all fail to get the same biologic response, ie a raise in IGF. Cobra also said he has seen his IGF levels in the 500s before which really debunks the idea that his liver is damaged and that he's not a responder like you imply here. 

If I'm not mistaken, Simec is fine for testing AAS but failed at testing HGH. Severalof their tests showed overdosed UGL HGH when the sources themselves said it was impossible as well as Simec HGH testing showing a pharm grade sample to be overdosed.


----------



## noswttea4u

I skimmed this thread so hopefully I didn't miss much, but I am someone who doesn't get a rise out of gh and I don't know why tbh. The only speculation on another forum is that deca and/or tren are lowering igf levels. This can be seen in one member there.
Do you have any other igf scores to compare to after taking hgh? Obviously batches vary but somastim has shown to contain hgh by hplc and immunoassay at PM and by AAA at meso. That would seemingly suggest that there is something else going on.
Also hgh is not a controlled substance and can be tested fairly easily in the US. 
Here are my igf scores for reference:
IGF:
11/23/15 Baseline 125
1/11/16 7 days Somastim 119
1/18/16 7 days Blacktop 167
1/27/16 10 days 6's Reds 162
9/19/16 20 days Pharmatropin 120
10/28/16 50 days Pharmatropin 240


----------



## Cobra Strike

My liver is not damaged at all. I posted my bloods in another thread showing everyone how good they looked after blasting for 2 1/2 years straight. There is proof my liver is on point. Everything in my bloods are on point or I wouldnt be blasting. I am very focused on longevity and health. My liver has nothing to do with these low levels.


----------



## Buck1973

Cobra Strike said:


> I have never said I was taking the serum test. The serum test can be faked. You can see a spike in serum but it doesn't mean it's good. The igf test is the one true test that proves quality. I spent over a month of my time and used all the gh I bought from you when I took this test. ample time for high igf readings. I also wasn't going to waste 10iu Wii and money on a serum test that can be innacurate.
> 
> 139 is basically my baseline igf level. No matter what the serum test says the igf test trumps all



 Many things can affect a IGF-1 test...
so be carefull. 
Know the limitations of any test you do.


----------



## ECKSRATED

So now we're looking for reasons why the test was ****ed up? Lol. Its bunk. Let's move on.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Buck1973 said:


> Many things can affect a IGF-1 test...
> so be carefull.
> Know the limitations of any test you do.



Please explain these test "limitations"


----------



## gymrat827

Cobra Strike said:


> Please explain these test "limitations"



Yes.   Very curious about what ruins it or alters it.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra - just for reference - may u post general blood tests ? I assume that your assumption that the liver values is valid, but after using AAS on heavy dosages for so long, especially 17-alpha ones it's hard for me to belive the values are perfect, anyhow we'll get to the root of this, just trying to include any parameter


----------



## sciroxx

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Muscle96ss is who you're talking about?
> 
> As I stated before, the GH serum score is basically worthless without an accompanying raise in IGF. there are several analogues and secretatogues out there that can raise serum GH from what I've seen but they all fail to get the same biologic response, ie a raise in IGF. Cobra also said he has seen his IGF levels in the 500s before which really debunks the idea that his liver is damaged and that he's not a responder like you imply here.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Simec is fine for testing AAS but failed at testing HGH. Severalof their tests showed overdosed UGL HGH when the sources themselves said it was impossible as well as Simec HGH testing showing a pharm grade sample to be overdosed.



Very good observation - I didn't know you're aware to this.

I've never referred to musles96ss in my posts, but I may ask him to come and post here as he lead these lab tests project

TRUE - Simec reported on 30% overdosed samples on the Somastim, and 25% on a pharma grade sample, if you ask me they made mistakes in their AAS tests as well, I proved it but this is not the point here. They did get perfect molecular weight on the Somastim which proves of course highly purity  191AA. Parallel to these tests they ran on professionalmuscle also HPLC tests in an authorized lab in Germany which found the Somastim to be 98.69% purity 191AA HGH and 21 iu a vial, and immunoassay tests which found 19iu of highly pure HGH per vial (remark - there are always inherent discrepancies between certain methods and even between certain tests, analytical chemistry is aparently a relative science if I describe it correctly in English).
Other lab tests in authorized lab in Siwss were done on Eroids - I posted a link to this as well
Anyhow any lab test always proved perfect 191AA structure on the Somastim

Now.... not that my feelings are relevant to this issue, but I'm damn angry to read some comments here, before one draws any conclusions lets make a proper test and we'll all learn, at least that is what common sense would say


----------



## sciroxx

gymrat827 said:


> Yes.   Very curious about what ruins it or alters it.



This is some endocrinology practice which is actually examined along some 260+ pages on professionalmuscle, but anyhow there are anomalies in serum tests, like in any serum test on any parameter, serum tests reflects some very individual status or response, this not an accurate result, but like everyone knows a wide range result test

I offered to you to make such serum tests by PM, and I offer as well this to any member here (PM me or mail me) so we may get a wider picture


----------



## janoshik

Hello!

Feel free to send me a sample to get it tested from the same kit. 


Also, I just skimmed through the thread, because I'm hella busy (which I apologise for), but could not the low IGF score be explained by exogenous use of IGF related peptides? 

Or as Mr. Buck says.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> My liver is not damaged at all. I posted my bloods in another thread showing everyone how good they looked after blasting for 2 1/2 years straight. There is proof my liver is on point. Everything in my bloods are on point or I wouldnt be blasting. I am very focused on longevity and health. My liver has nothing to do with these low levels.



If you are focused on longevity and health I would caution you to look into GH and IGF-1 again. There's evidence showing that HGH, more specifically, the IGF response to HGH, is associated with higher morbidity. This thought to be bc one of IGF's roles is cellular replication and inhibition of apoptosis. I want to add that to my knowledge causation hasn't been established and there are alternate theories out there that may explain the higher cancer risk for those with high IGF1 levels but I'm just throwing this out there as a cautionary statement. It's something worth looking into if you have the time and inclination.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

noswttea4u said:


> I skimmed this thread so hopefully I didn't miss much, but I am someone who doesn't get a rise out of gh and I don't know why tbh. The only speculation on another forum is that deca and/or tren are lowering igf levels. This can be seen in one member there.
> Do you have any other igf scores to compare to after taking hgh? Obviously batches vary but somastim has shown to contain hgh by hplc and immunoassay at PM and by AAA at meso. That would seemingly suggest that there is something else going on.
> Also hgh is not a controlled substance and can be tested fairly easily in the US.
> Here are my igf scores for reference:
> IGF:
> 11/23/15 Baseline 125
> 1/11/16 7 days Somastim 119
> 1/18/16 7 days Blacktop 167
> 1/27/16 10 days 6's Reds 162
> 9/19/16 20 days Pharmatropin 120
> 10/28/16 50 days Pharmatropin 240



He says he has seen IGF levels in the 500s I the past


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Buck1973 said:


> Many things can affect a IGF-1 test...
> so be carefull.
> Know the limitations of any test you do.



Are you suggesting a GH serum test is a better indicator?


----------



## sciroxx

DocDePanda187123 said:


> He says he has seen IGF levels in the 500s I the past



I would like to see such tests from last months


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> I would like to see such tests from last months



If he has them he will produce them but I've known cobra from here for several years now and never known him to lie or fabricate results for his benefit. I trust him implicitly.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Very good observation - I didn't know you're aware to this.
> 
> I've never referred to musles96ss in my posts, but I may ask him to come and post here as he lead these lab tests project
> 
> TRUE - Simec reported on 30% overdosed samples on the Somastim, and 25% on a pharma grade sample, if you ask me they made mistakes in their AAS tests as well, I proved it but this is not the point here. They did get perfect molecular weight on the Somastim which proves of course highly purity  191AA. Parallel to these tests they ran on professionalmuscle also HPLC tests in an authorized lab in Germany which found the Somastim to be 98.69% purity 191AA HGH and 21 iu a vial, and immunoassay tests which found 19iu of highly pure HGH per vial (remark - there are always inherent discrepancies between certain methods and even between certain tests, analytical chemistry is aparently a relative science if I describe it correctly in English).
> Other lab tests in authorized lab in Siwss were done on Eroids - I posted a link to this as well
> Anyhow any lab test always proved perfect 191AA structure on the Somastim
> 
> Now.... not that my feelings are relevant to this issue, but I'm damn angry to read some comments here, before one draws any conclusions lets make a proper test and we'll all learn, at least that is what common sense would say



You mentioned a vet from PM which I assumed to be Muscle. I see you brought Buck and Nosweat here. 

I hope you're not talking about your test e product that had TPP in it when you talk about Simec being wrong with AAS testing??


----------



## DocDePanda187123

janoshik said:


> Hello!
> 
> Feel free to send me a sample to get it tested from the same kit.
> 
> 
> Also, I just skimmed through the thread, because I'm hella busy (which I apologise for), but could not the low IGF score be explained by exogenous use of IGF related peptides?
> 
> Or as Mr. Buck says.



I don't think so. When you're on exogenous test and take HCG, your total test levels will still elevate bc the Leydig cells receive the stimulus so I believe the IGF levels should have gone up bc the HGH should have provided the signal to produce more IGF. On the other hand, if he was taking IGF at the same time like you're saying he did and he mentioned in this thread, why didn't even the exogenous IGF raise his serum IGF level?


----------



## sciroxx

First I would never imply Cobra has done anything but giving honest report, my motive to work with him based on the fact that he's a honest respected vet here, it's simply hard for me to believe that he has such tests from last months, and then the results of the IGF1 test went down, maybe years ago, let keep in mind that Cobra is using a heavy continuous cycle including 17-alpha AAS

I asked a couple of vet who led the GH testing thread to come and explain a bit (it has nothing to do with any AAS test), but seems like they can't make more then one post here or something, they may contribute from their experience, this is exactly what they dealt with last couple of years, and as u may see they honest goal is bringing good GH to the customers, so we all have here a mutual goal.

I think you should talk to Jano - talk to him in person as you're a doc, and you may share some details on HPLC tests he may run, he's very cooperative and familiar with this field,


----------



## DocDePanda187123

I did some research on GHI/GHD (growth hormone insensitivity and growth hormone deficiency). GHI might be applicable to scenarios where GH is in the body without an accompanying IGF rise but this is an extremely rare disease. One example of such disease is called Laron dwarfism which is categorized by normal to high serum GH but low to low normal IGF levels. Since the disease was initially founded in 1966 I believe, only 300 reported cases of it have been documented with 65% of them being in the Middle East and a small remote village in Ecuador where Jewish people who converted to Christianity went to during the inquisition when hey were persecuted. This particular disease is almost exclusive to people of Semitic origin. There are a few other disease with downstream GH insensitivity issues as well that I'm aware of. The point is, if he's insensitive to GH it would have been acquired genetically at birth and evident many many years ago. I'm personally not aware of GHI issues that come later in life although I admit it's fully possible they exist.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> First I would never imply Cobra has done anything but giving honest report, my motive to work with him based on the fact that he's a honest respected vet here, it's simply hard for me to believe that he has such tests from last months, and then the results of the IGF1 test went down, maybe years ago, let keep in mind that Cobra is using a heavy continuous cycle including AAS
> 
> I asked a couple of vet who led the GH testing thread to come and explain a bit (it has nothing to do with any AAS test), but seems like they can't make more then one post here or something, they may contribute from their experience, this is exactly what they dealt with last year + and as u may see they honest goal is bringing good GH to the customers, so we all have here a mutual goal.
> 
> I think you should talk to Jano - talk to him in person as you're a doc, and you may share some details on HPLC tests he may run, he's very cooperative and familiar with this field,



I'm not saying you think Cobra is lying but only speaking of my thoughts. I have no issue with Muscle, Buck, Nosweat. I've read many of their posts before. Anyone is welcome to join this forum. If they're having issues posting have them contact Admin to look into it. 

I know Janoshik already. I don't think I've spoken with him but you should know I'm not a doctor. This is only my forum screen name here.


----------



## gymrat827

plain n simple.....If there was a boost, Cobra's igf numbers would of saw it.


----------



## sciroxx

Ok, we're going in circles, 

I claim that we've seen anomalies in serum test, when I post some links as a reference here there are deleted, but we've seen this with experienced heavy AAS users more then few times, it's not very common but enough that I could post few link .... a couple of these individuals with such IGF1 serum tests posted here yesterday and supported this claim, you're welcome to talk to them

You say differently, ok .... we may call it an end, or we may continue to test ... I'll be happy to cooperate, so u decide how u like to test - if have a couple of volunteers we may trial, if you like Cobra to test on any lab u choose I'm in


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Ok, we're going in circles,
> 
> I claim that we've seen anomalies in serum test, when I post some links as a reference here there are deleted, but we've seen this with experienced heavy AAS users more then few times, it's not very common but enough that I could post few link .... a couple of these individuals with such IGF1 serum tests posted here yesterday and supported this claim, you're welcome to talk to them
> 
> You say differently, ok .... we may call it an end, or we may continue to test ... I'll be happy to cooperate, so u decide how u like to test - if have a couple of volunteers we may trial, if you like Cobra to test on any lab u choose I'm in



I did not delete nor edit anything you have posted. 

I'm all for lab testing but I believe specifically GH serum test to be worthless at this point. 

We are going in circles bc ask yourself what is easier to believe:

A) something possibly wrong with a particular vial of an incredibly difficult hormone to produce 

Or 

B) cobra is someone with an extremely rare disease that makes him insensitive to GH or some other rare condition that can do soemthing similar


----------



## sciroxx

Doc- I have no clue who deleteed the links, but my links to Eroids and prodfessionalmuscle are deleted, no probs, maybe it broke some rules, we're for tests here, not on other forums, just tried to give an indication

You made some search doc, and indeed there is a rare disease in which the body doesn't respond to GH and produce IGF1, this is BTW what Increlex (pharma IGF1) is prescribed for, anyhow and obviously Cobra is not the case, as if it is the case he would be a tiny dwarf with IGF1 serum levels of close to zero .

Nothing went wrong with any vial he got, this is a fact and I hope we'll test it. In my language we use to say that the baker will not testify on his bread, based on this I've tried to avoid telling some brave stories on my GH, but as you know I have some thousands of happy customers, and dozens of serum and lab tests to confirm the quality I supply, I assume and seen here some of my customers as well, it's quite known that we produce in GMP standards, and I explained that I back up the quality by any amount and offered to test it.

Now Doc, and I say it with much respect, I don't think that you have the experience I do with probably a couple of hundreds of serum tests, and constant interaction with the production and the expert to it, so give me (maybe  ) some credit and trust me that we've seen on open popular forums individuals that under some circumstances reacts with lower then expected serum IGF1 tests, and they were actually always heavy AAS users.

Maybe I'm wrong ? maybe I lie ? so as u said lets continue with testing, if u think that GH serum tests may be unnecessary lets skip on it, u like to trial and make IGF1 test ? I said already that we may send it to a simple AA analysis,


----------



## Maijah

Dude, this has become so petty. The results aren't there, bottom line. Not in the blood work , not in the mirror, and not on the scale. I guess to each is own but I couldn't justify spending that kind of $$$ on something that does absolutely nothing.


----------



## gymrat827

im not sure who deleted your links either.......as it wasnt me.  

But dude, it is what it is.  accept it


----------



## sciroxx

I'm proud on many descent tests and positive feedback I've got, same as I'm proud that Cobra trialed my products, I surely accept Cobra's feedback, I encouraged him to post it, like I encourage any customer. I guarantee the quality I provide, unfortunately I can't guarantee anyone's satisfaction or individual results
I offered to conduct real AA HPLC analyzis tests and offered to finance it so we may learn on the quality, I find it bizarre that you're based on one test of one individual, I have offered as well to anyone to make same tests to get a broader perspective and experience of serum tests, it's your call, my suggestions are open and valid always.

Thank u all for the attention and honest comments


----------



## janoshik

DocDePanda187123 said:


> I don't think so. When you're on exogenous test and take HCG, your total test levels will still elevate bc the Leydig cells receive the stimulus so I believe the IGF levels should have gone up bc the HGH should have provided the signal to produce more IGF. On the other hand, if he was taking IGF at the same time like you're saying he did and he mentioned in this thread, why didn't even the exogenous IGF raise his serum IGF level?



I believe you have used the wrong parallel - please, let me set up a hypothetical and very simplified situation:

Your natural test level is 1000ng. 
You decide to use testosterone, some mild dosage, like 70mg/wk, which alone would keep you at about 500ng.

After some time which it takes to stabilise, your levels would be more likely in the vicinity of 1000ng rather than 1500ng, because your body stopped producing testosterone it had been exogenously supplied with.

Same would happen, actually, if you had used HCG, but less of it than you produce naturally. 



Now, IGF DES and IGF LR3 are supposedly (and my knowledge leads me to believe this is completely correct) not picked up by immunoassays which are used to test for human endogenous IGF, yet they ought to bind to the same receptors, causing the feedback loop interference.

So simplified hypothetitcal situation:
My normal level of IGF is X, immunoassay by doc says it's X

On some dose of IGF variants my level of IGF and equivalents is 2X, but bloodwork says it's 0.7X (can somebody confirm this or does anybody have any info about this? ), because endogenous production decreased in response to IGF receptor stimulation

On some dose of HGH, my IGF is 2X and bloodwork says it's 2X

What would happen if you used both IGF equivalents and HGH at once? 



I don't know and nor I do think that anybody can do anything but guesswork here, but I hope that I've explained my line of thinking to you, Sir.

I am not saying this is the case, that's just the line of thinking that I have and I hope there are no fallacies in it - if there are I'll be happy to stand corrected.






DocDePanda187123 said:


> I did not delete nor edit anything you have posted.
> 
> I'm all for lab testing but I believe specifically GH serum test to be worthless at this point.
> 
> We are going in circles bc ask yourself what is easier to believe:
> 
> A) something possibly wrong with a particular vial of an incredibly difficult hormone to produce
> 
> Or
> 
> B) cobra is someone with an extremely rare disease that makes him insensitive to GH or some other rare condition that can do soemthing similar



I think that it is being implied that there's also variant C possible - that the liver might be failing to create IGF in response to HGH, due to the stress it is being subjected to. 

I believe something similar had happened to Mr. Buck, but I might be wrong here - in that case I'll be happy to stand corrected, as I don't watch serum testing so closely.


Anyway, if anything went wrong with that vial, it's likely that it had happened to the whole kit as well and it is in my interested to test and research it. 


I hope you do not find my presence and suggestions to be intrusive. 

Cheers

- jano


----------



## Cobra Strike

I have no idea why it's necessary for me to post this as I have already stated my liver and everything else is on point but here it is for the ones that don't believe me. This changes nothing.

also I do not have my old igf tests but that makes no difference on the test I just ran. I am pretty sure that I do not have a rare disease and do not respond to gh and weather or nor I've seen high igf numbers in the past does not effect this test. 

frankly it's pretty annoying that I bought this gh with my money...I spent 5 weeks running this and injecting it at the same times every day, paying for the test myself, spending my time to go in and get the test anf then posting the results which are 500% legit just to have the test overlooked because I am one individual. It's annoying that explanations such as don't go off of one persons results or since he is running high aas these results of course are low. 

The results are low because the shit is junk scrioxx. Quit trying to fkn play it lije you are. Quit trying to bring your croonies over here to try and somehow debunk the results. No one gives a shit what they have to say. They have no respect here. They are not from here...they are biased. The test was performed with perfect accuracy. I'm not the type that makes excuses. I eat all my meals measured exactly, I train hard and never miss the gym. I take all my supplements at the same time every week. I take this stuff seriously. There is no user error here. I couldnt have performed this trial any more perfectly. I was very excited for these results as I would have used scrioxx for more. I figured if anything scrioxx would have sent me the best product out of any batch he had to ensure endure the best test results. With that said the results do not lie. The aas has no effect on my igf levels. It's a completely different axis.

Now I am happy that scrioxx let me try out his igf for free..for that I am grateful. I would like to see what someone elses test results come out as but at this point it would have to be some one high up on the repect meter here to do that test. 

The results are the results...simple as that.


----------



## Cobra Strike

DocDePanda187123 said:


> If you are focused on longevity and health I would caution you to look into GH and IGF-1 again. There's evidence showing that HGH, more specifically, the IGF response to HGH, is associated with higher morbidity. This thought to be bc one of IGF's roles is cellular replication and inhibition of apoptosis. I want to add that to my knowledge causation hasn't been established and there are alternate theories out there that may explain the higher cancer risk for those with high IGF1 levels but I'm just throwing this out there as a cautionary statement. It's something worth looking into if you have the time and inclination.



oh I know this doc...I should explain. I'm very focused on health and longevity but I will risk it until some red flags pop up lol I like to push my body to its limits but at the same time I do as much as i can to maintain my health


----------



## janoshik

Cobra Strike said:


> Quit trying to bring your croonies over here to try and somehow debunk the results. No one gives a shit what they have to say. They have no respect here. They are not from here...they are biased.



I merely have to say I hope you did not have me in mind when you were writing that down. 

Cheers

 - jano


----------



## Cobra Strike

janoshik said:


> I merely have to say I hope you did not have me in mind when you were writing that down.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> - jano



Why does it matter?  Your a new member here...you may be insanely popular on your board but this is not your board. You joined here simply to help scrioxx which makes you biased. Am I wrong? The suggestions that scrioxx gives about what could have caused this and the guys that have come here for his aid are all just trying to find a way around the actual results. I appreciate the conversation but there is no magic to this test. I bought the growth, I tested it, it failed, and thats that. It's not because of my dam liver. I've got plenty of experience with all things body building, aas, gh, igf, peptides, prohomrones, nutrition and testing. I know the only factor in the reason this test failed was the product. all this dancing around is bullshit. 

Scrioxx if you want to send me a new batch (5 to six weeks worth at 6iu a day) for free I will test it again but as of right now the results are painfully obvious.


----------



## ECKSRATED

Cobra Strike said:


> View attachment 3407
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea why it's necessary for me to post this as I have already stated my liver and everything else is on point but here it is for the ones that don't believe me. This changes nothing.
> 
> also I do not have my old igf tests but that makes no difference on the test I just ran. I am pretty sure that I do not have a rare disease and do not respond to gh and weather or nor I've seen high igf numbers in the past does not effect this test.
> 
> frankly it's pretty annoying that I bought this gh with my money...I spent 5 weeks running this and injecting it at the same times every day, paying for the test myself, spending my time to go in and get the test anf then posting the results which are 500% legit just to have the test overlooked because I am one individual. It's annoying that explanations such as don't go off of one persons results or since he is running high aas these results of course are low.
> 
> The results are low because the shit is junk scrioxx. Quit trying to fkn play it lije you are. Quit trying to bring your croonies over here to try and somehow debunk the results. No one gives a shit what they have to say. They have no respect here. They are not from here...they are biased. The test was performed with perfect accuracy. I'm not the type that makes excuses. I eat all my meals measured exactly, I train hard and never miss the gym. I take all my supplements at the same time every week. I take this stuff seriously. There is no user error here. I couldnt have performed this trial any more perfectly. I was very excited for these results as I would have used scrioxx for more. I figured if anything scrioxx would have sent me the best product out of any batch he had to ensure endure the best test results. With that said the results do not lie. The aas has no effect on my igf levels. It's a completely different axis.
> 
> Now I am happy that scrioxx let me try out his igf for free..for that I am grateful. I would like to see what someone elses test results come out as but at this point it would have to be some one high up on the repect meter here to do that test.
> 
> The results are the results...simple as that.



Jesus I've been waiting for u to say this. 

I don't understand all the scientific mumbo jumbo frankly because I don't care to but the tests don't lie. Cobra isn't some noob.  There was no gains made at all and there are bloods to prove its garbage. Let's all move on and chalk it up as a loss. For fukks sake


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Last night I was remembering my first blowjob. It was amazing, but it took me forever to get the taste out of my mouth.


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Sorry. Wrong board, wrong thread. I know Cobra Strike from multiple boards. Carry on.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Doc- I have no clue who deleteed the links, but my links to Eroids and prodfessionalmuscle are deleted, no probs, maybe it broke some rules, we're for tests here, not on other forums, just tried to give an indication
> 
> You made some search doc, and indeed there is a rare disease in which the body doesn't respond to GH and produce IGF1, this is BTW what Increlex (pharma IGF1) is prescribed for, anyhow and obviously Cobra is not the case, as if it is the case he would be a tiny dwarf with IGF1 serum levels of close to zero .
> 
> Nothing went wrong with any vial he got, this is a fact and I hope we'll test it. In my language we use to say that the baker will not testify on his bread, based on this I've tried to avoid telling some brave stories on my GH, but as you know I have some thousands of happy customers, and dozens of serum and lab tests to confirm the quality I supply, I assume and seen here some of my customers as well, it's quite known that we produce in GMP standards, and I explained that I back up the quality by any amount and offered to test it.
> 
> Now Doc, and I say it with much respect, I don't think that you have the experience I do with probably a couple of hundreds of serum tests, and constant interaction with the production and the expert to it, so give me (maybe  ) some credit and trust me that we've seen on open popular forums individuals that under some circumstances reacts with lower then expected serum IGF1 tests, and they were actually always heavy AAS users.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong ? maybe I lie ? so as u said lets continue with testing, if u think that GH serum tests may be unnecessary lets skip on it, u like to trial and make IGF1 test ? I said already that we may send it to a simple AA analysis,



Here's what I can tell you, the gold standard test to check efficacy of growth hormone treatment is serum IGF tests. Dr. Scally has posted this as well as I've read about it through my readings. Besides GHI or your idea or a damaged liver, I've yet to see any concrete evidence of why a otherwise healthy male would not respond with high IGF levels. You have some information worth reading? Please PM me it and I'd enjoy reading it. I prefer objective information over personal anecdotes. 

You are correct, you have much more experience in HGH than I do. There's no question there. I have zero experience using HGH. 

I'll politely decline the offer to trial the GH. Nothing personal against you. I just like to buy my gear and I cannot afford GH.


----------



## Buck1973

kjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj


----------



## DocDePanda187123

janoshik said:


> I believe you have used the wrong parallel - please, let me set up a hypothetical and very simplified situation:
> 
> Your natural test level is 1000ng.
> You decide to use testosterone, some mild dosage, like 70mg/wk, which alone would keep you at about 500ng.
> 
> After some time which it takes to stabilise, your levels would be more likely in the vicinity of 1000ng rather than 1500ng, because your body stopped producing testosterone it had been exogenously supplied with.
> 
> Same would happen, actually, if you had used HCG, but less of it than you produce naturally.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, IGF DES and IGF LR3 are supposedly (and my knowledge leads me to believe this is completely correct) not picked up by immunoassays which are used to test for human endogenous IGF, yet they ought to bind to the same receptors, causing the feedback loop interference.
> 
> So simplified hypothetitcal situation:
> My normal level of IGF is X, immunoassay by doc says it's X
> 
> On some dose of IGF variants my level of IGF and equivalents is 2X, but bloodwork says it's 0.7X (can somebody confirm this or does anybody have any info about this? ), because endogenous production decreased in response to IGF receptor stimulation
> 
> On some dose of HGH, my IGF is 2X and bloodwork says it's 2X
> 
> What would happen if you used both IGF equivalents and HGH at once?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know and nor I do think that anybody can do anything but guesswork here, but I hope that I've explained my line of thinking to you, Sir.
> 
> I am not saying this is the case, that's just the line of thinking that I have and I hope there are no fallacies in it - if there are I'll be happy to stand corrected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that it is being implied that there's also variant C possible - that the liver might be failing to create IGF in response to HGH, due to the stress it is being subjected to.
> 
> I believe something similar had happened to Mr. Buck, but I might be wrong here - in that case I'll be happy to stand corrected, as I don't watch serum testing so closely.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if anything went wrong with that vial, it's likely that it had happened to the whole kit as well and it is in my interested to test and research it.
> 
> 
> I hope you do not find my presence and suggestions to be intrusive.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> - jano



I completely understand your line of thinking. However, when you're on exogenous test and add in HCG, your levels will go up slightly. I believe it to be the same with HGH and IGF1 although I don't have concrete proof. 

From my readings, liver cirrhosis would stop the liver from producing IGF as much IGF from HGH but looking at his lab work posted a few posts up, he doesn't have liver cirrhosis. 

You're right, I doubt IGF LR3 and DES are picked up by immunoassays since they have trouble be determining between endogenous and exogenous IGF sources let alone ones structurally different. MS is a much better approach. 

I don't mind your presence at all.


----------



## sciroxx

First Cobra's liver values are relatively high, but this is not the issue here...

You have to conceieve that I knew in advance that Cobra will TEST the products I sent to him, and would actually introduce my proven line of products to this respected forum, anyone who thinks that I would send to him anything but perfect quality is simply insane. These products are sold on many major forum for years, generally with an excellent feedback, and were tested on independent labs by random purchases. I emphasize - here I knew Cobra will test the products ! almost any other test which was posted was done without me knowing it ! actually there is NOT a single claim anywhere so far that I ever sent a bunk GH and I'm talking about thousands of orders and many dozens of tests In the few cases on which the GH or IGF1 result were not as one expected at least the members had the open mind to retest and learn, and surprise .... my claims turned, at least to some degree, right.

What we're doing here based on merely one test of one individual is is called speculations, and as endocrinology is not exactly our expertise this is useless at this point, I suggest that a couple of other members will serum test the product, or even better, simply send the product (any of them or both) to a simple AA analysis, but hey... I've just said it last days already in any post I made, I'm Fn surprised no one is cooperating


----------



## janoshik

Cobra Strike said:


> Why does it matter?  Your a new member here...you may be insanely popular on your board but this is not your board. You joined here simply to help scrioxx which makes you biased. Am I wrong? The suggestions that scrioxx gives about what could have caused this and the guys that have come here for his aid are all just trying to find a way around the actual results. I appreciate the conversation but there is no magic to this test. I bought the growth, I tested it, it failed, and thats that. It's not because of my dam liver. I've got plenty of experience with all things body building, aas, gh, igf, peptides, prohomrones, nutrition and testing. I know the only factor in the reason this test failed was the product. all this dancing around is bullshit.
> 
> Scrioxx if you want to send me a new batch (5 to six weeks worth at 6iu a day) for free I will test it again but as of right now the results are painfully obvious.



Because it came off as rude to me, while I do not think I have been rude to anybody here. 

That's why it matters, Mr. Cobra.

Also, where do you see me helping sciroxx?

I got informed about this thread and am interested in what could possibly go wrong, because testing stuff is my job and educating myself is a necessary part of it. 

I honestly don't care too much if it is good or bad, what I care about it the truth and what could be affecting the results. 

If the result is that the HGH is somehow bad/underdosed - more people, sciroxx included, I believe, would be interested in having their stuff tested and using my services - good for me!

If the result of the IGF serum is somehow proven to not really be up to par of what it was expected/supposed to be - the need for another form of testing rises even more - good for me! 


I'm happy to see that you are aware of the real reason, so I'm offering to test a vial from one of your kits to prove that the HGH had been garbage indeed, for those of us that are not as experienced as you yet.




DocDePanda187123 said:


> I completely understand your line of thinking. However, when you're on exogenous test and add in HCG, your levels will go up slightly. I believe it to be the same with HGH and IGF1 although I don't have concrete proof.
> 
> From my readings, liver cirrhosis would stop the liver from producing IGF as much IGF from HGH but looking at his lab work posted a few posts up, he doesn't have liver cirrhosis.
> 
> You're right, I doubt IGF LR3 and DES are picked up by immunoassays since they have trouble be determining between endogenous and exogenous IGF sources let alone ones structurally different. MS is a much better approach.
> 
> I don't mind your presence at all.


I get what you are saying and it is impossible to conclude anything else without more evidence, which we don't have. 

Also, it's possible to have heavy liver damage without a big rise in enzyme levels in case the damage had been chronic. (I am not saying this is the case, just pointing out interesting piece of knowledge.) 


MS test for IGF would not pick up IGF LR3 and DES as well, unless you are of course meaning that those would be screened for specifically.

Thank you for discussion!

Cheers

- jano


----------



## BigGameHunter

janoshik said:


> Because it came off as rude to me, while I do not think I have been rude to anybody here.
> 
> That's why it matters, Mr. Cobra.
> 
> Also, where do you see me helping sciroxx?
> 
> I got informed about this thread and am interested in what could possibly go wrong, because testing stuff is my job and educating myself is a necessary part of it.
> 
> I honestly don't care too much if it is good or bad, what I care about it the truth and what could be affecting the results.



We dont have a "safe place" for hurt feelings and bruised egos around here nor do we kiss ass to anyone.  Get over it.  

If educating yourself is a necessary part of it then would it not have been wise to read the entire thread instead of skimming it before offering to "educate" yourself and the rest of us?  As you stated in your other post and an offer to test the vial from the same kit?

Maybe Cobra is disappointed because he...well I read the thread Id suggest you do the same before you offer your help and expect any reasonable amount of respect.


----------



## gymrat827

janoshik said:


> Because it came off as rude to me, while I do not think I have been rude to anybody here.
> 
> That's why it matters, Mr. Cobra.
> 
> Also, where do you see me helping sciroxx?
> 
> I got informed about this thread and am interested in what could possibly go wrong, because testing stuff is my job and educating myself is a necessary part of it.
> 
> I honestly don't care too much if it is good or bad, what I care about it the truth and what could be affecting the results.
> 
> If the result is that the HGH is somehow bad/underdosed - more people, sciroxx included, I believe, would be interested in having their stuff tested and using my services - good for me!
> 
> If the result of the IGF serum is somehow proven to not really be up to par of what it was expected/supposed to be - the need for another form of testing rises even more - good for me!
> 
> 
> I'm happy to see that you are aware of the real reason, so I'm offering to test a vial from one of your kits to prove that the HGH had been garbage indeed, for those of us that are not as experienced as you yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I get what you are saying and it is impossible to conclude anything else without more evidence, which we don't have.
> 
> Also, it's possible to have heavy liver damage without a big rise in enzyme levels in case the damage had been chronic. (I am not saying this is the case, just pointing out interesting piece of knowledge.)
> 
> 
> MS test for IGF would not pick up IGF LR3 and DES as well, unless you are of course meaning that those would be screened for specifically.
> 
> Thank you for discussion!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> - jano



Dude shut up.  

Stop trying to help the results become something that could of been anything different than they were.  We know what we are doing around here, IDC wtf your going to tell me happened with the test or Cobra.  THERE IS no fa king GH in there, nor the igf LR3.  

stop trying to get us to believe such bullshit, we know your lying and just trying to help his cause.  

Get the fuk out of here if this is all you have to talk about.


----------



## janoshik

BigGameHunter said:


> We dont have a "safe place" for hurt feelings and bruised egos around here nor do we kiss ass to anyone.  Get over it.
> 
> If educating yourself is a necessary part of it then would it not have been wise to read the entire thread instead of skimming it before offering to "educate" yourself and the rest of us?  As you stated in your other post and an offer to test the vial from the same kit?
> 
> Maybe Cobra is disappointed because he...well I read the thread Id suggest you do the same before you offer your help and expect any reasonable amount of respect.



Damn, that's a pity. Now I gotta take my Prozac twice the usual.

But kid, if you see the answers to my questions and a discussion about the points I raised anywhere in the thread before I chimed in, I gotta congratulate you, because you've just diagnosed me being blind and that's a big thing over the internet.


----------



## janoshik

gymrat827 said:


> Dude shut up.
> 
> Stop trying to help the results become something that could of been anything different than they were.  We know what we are doing around here, IDC wtf your going to tell me happened with the test or Cobra.  THERE IS no fa king GH in there, nor the igf LR3.
> 
> stop trying to get us to believe such bullshit, we know your lying and just trying to help his cause.
> 
> Get the fuk out of here if this is all you have to talk about.



Damn, one hell of a comeback. 

I am astonished by the factual responses to the points I had raised, which you took time to have all adressed. 

I am thoroughly impressed.




If there's no HGH in there, why not just send me the "fa king GH" or IGF LR3 vial so I can see for myself? 
The test had already been paid for.


----------



## NbleSavage

janoshik said:


> Damn, that's a pity. Now I gotta take my Prozac twice the usual.
> 
> But *kid*, if you see the answers to my questions and a discussion about the points I raised anywhere in the thread before I chimed in, I gotta congratulate you, because you've just diagnosed me being blind and that's a big thing over the internet.



Mate, you must be taking the piss. You clearly have no idea the folks on this board, nor of BGH in particular. I really think it best if you leave.


----------



## sciroxx

Pls, and not that I direct this discussion, but I do ask everyone to calm down and maybe we may try to get some answers

Considering some of the posts here I repeat myself, and defend my claims - 

- Along of more then 2 years of selling thousands of orders of GH we've never got one complaint on a bunk product, this is a fact which is easy to check, actually if you check there are numerous positive feedback and favorable tests

- I knew in advance that Cobra will test the products, I knew and I asked him do so as well as to make a full comprehensive log, any common sense would certainly tell that even if on a daily basis I supply to random customers with bunk shit, I will send tested perfect and flawless GH to Cobra, I do try to promote it ! not ruin my rep ... lol .... makes sense ?!? if on a dozen of major forums the feedback is much above average, not to say the best (I think along with grey tops), then I guess Cobra whether as a regular customer and especially and above all as a promoter whom I requested to test the product, will get a descent product, don't u think ?

- Under any standards it would be careless to make any opinion based on one individual test. More ever, I asked Cobra for recent tests (which I assume he would post here last months or years), he doesn't have such, not old IGF1 test, nor a base line, and his liver values are double then the upper range, these are by no means no accusations toward Cobra, I will talk to Cobra in private, he invested some time and hope here, and I'll do my best to make him happy, I would never leave any bitter taste with any customer, unless of course he's a scammer, and trust me there are reverse scammers.

- Jano BTW is a professional, but anyhow lets leave him aside, he was honestly trying to contribute, just like Cobra did, you may not accept him as an outsider, I still think he may contribute, anyhow pls guys - choose any lab (in the USA or other country) and we may test the product (if u like to u may let Jano test it as well and we may compare the results). Further more, I PMed the super mod, and I offer repeatedly to anyone to serum test the GH, or trial the IGF1-lr or IGF1-DES, and we'll get more results and feedback. I know that testing the IGF1 is NOT illegal in the USA, so anyone may send a sample, and an AA analysis will confirm the purity and configuration of the IGF1-DEs (or LR3) and you'll confirm that the configuration is intact and the purity is above 98% which is the pharma standard for similar peptides


----------



## BigGameHunter

sciroxx said:


> Pls, and not that I direct this discussion, but I do ask everyone to calm down and maybe we may try to get some answers
> 
> Considering some of the posts here I repeat myself, and defend my claims -
> 
> - Along of more then 2 years of selling thousands of orders of GH we've never got one complaint on a bunk product, this is a fact which is easy to check, actually if you check there are numerous positive feedback and favorable tests
> 
> - I knew in advance that Cobra will test the products, I knew and I asked him do so as well as to make a full comprehensive log, any common sense would certainly tell that even if on a daily basis I supply to random customers with bunk shit, I will send tested perfect and flawless GH to Cobra, I do try to promote it ! not ruin my rep ... lol .... makes sense ?!? if on a dozen of major forums the feedback is much above average, not to say the best (I think along with grey tops), then I guess Cobra whether as a regular customer and especially and above all as a promoter whom I requested to test the product, will get a descent product, don't u think ?
> 
> - Under any standards it would be careless to make any opinion based on one individual test. More ever, I asked Cobra for recent tests (which I assume he would post here last months or years), he doesn't have such, not old IGF1 test, nor a base line, and his liver values are double then the upper range, these are by no means no accusations toward Cobra, I will talk to Cobra in private, he invested some time and hope here, and I'll do my best to make him happy, I would never leave any bitter taste with any customer, unless of course he's a scammer, and trust me there are reverse scammers.
> 
> - Jano BTW is a professional, but anyhow lets leave him aside, he was honestly trying to contribute, just like Cobra did, you may not accept him as an outsider, I still think he may contribute, anyhow pls guys - choose any lab (in the USA or other country) and we may test the product (if u like to u may let Jano test it as well and we may compare the results). Further more, I PMed the super mod, and I offer repeatedly to anyone to serum test the GH, or trial the IGF1-lr or IGF1-DES, and we'll get more results and feedback. I know that testing the IGF1 is NOT illegal in the USA, so anyone may send a sample, and an AA analysis will confirm the purity and configuration of the IGF1-DEs (or LR3) and you'll confirm that the configuration is intact and the purity is above 98% which is the pharma standard for similar peptides



Ive pretty much stayed out of this until now but it should be noted Sciroxx that I was a former user of your gear liked it  and I grew on it.  You and I have had plenty of dialog in the past and no one here is questioning your products least of all me.  That said, I think your making a bit of a blunder here by not making this right.  How?  Ask your customer?  Then get to the bottom of this mess.  Your not going to find the answer by putting even part of the onus on him to do anything that he hasnt already done in spades for you.  Even mentioning reverse scammers even as to raise awareness is not helping.  Since you knew all these things before hand I know you well enough to know that if you thought Cobra was a scammer then we would not be here.

As far as Jano goes professional is a relative term in this world and you of all people should know that.  Useful is probably a better term since were being honest.  Pros in any environment dont have to panhandle for work on Reddit of all places.   Then swing by here offer help and skim threads because they are so busy...Do you see where our concern is for your Pro?


janoshik 1 point 19 hours ago 
All too well, haha.
Still got the maillist safely encrypted somewhere over there, just in case. "pls guise test stuff, I'm starving over here"

And were suppose to have our hat in our hand and give this guy some respect.  He needs money worse than respect.


----------



## janoshik

BigGameHunter said:


> Ive pretty much stayed out of this until now but it should be noted Sciroxx that I was a former user of your gear liked it  and I grew on it.  You and I have had plenty of dialog in the past and no one here is questioning your products least of all me.  That said, I think your making a bit of a blunder here by not making this right.  How?  Ask your customer?  Then get to the bottom of this mess.  Your not going to find the answer by putting even part of the onus on him to do anything that he hasnt already done in spades for you.  Even mentioning reverse scammers even as to raise awareness is not helping.  Since you knew all these things before hand I know you well enough to know that if you thought Cobra was a scammer then we would not be here.
> 
> As far as Jano goes professional is a relative term in this world and you of all people should know that.  Useful is probably a better term since were being honest.  Pros in any environment dont have to panhandle for work on Reddit of all places.   Then swing by here offer help and skim threads because they are so busy...Do you see where our concern is for your Pro?
> 
> 
> janoshik 1 point 19 hours ago
> All too well, haha.
> Still got the maillist safely encrypted somewhere over there, just in case. "pls guise test stuff, I'm starving over here"
> 
> And were suppose to have our hat in our hand and give this guy some respect.  He needs money worse than respect.




How many other individuals in the world are there who had conducted literally *hundreds* of tests on anabolics and dozens on HGH? 

That kinda, by definition, makes me a professional. Ill-tempered, I admit, but professional nevertheless.




Also, is quoting that post of mine supposed to prove something? 

I'd say that the humour like that is really hard to miss, but I guess you are not too much fun at the parties.



Like I had already mentioned, I'm not here to defend anybody or anything, push any agenda, or argue with humourless individuals, but to do my job, which is testing stuff and finding out what can be wrong.


----------



## sciroxx

BigGameHunter said:


> Ive pretty much stayed out of this until now but it should be noted Sciroxx that I was a former user of your gear liked it  and I grew on it.  You and I have had plenty of dialog in the past and no one here is questioning your products least of all me.  That said, I think your making a bit of a blunder here by not making this right.  How?  Ask your customer?  Then get to the bottom of this mess.  Your not going to find the answer by putting even part of the onus on him to do anything that he hasnt already done in spades for you.  Even mentioning reverse scammers even as to raise awareness is not helping.  Since you knew all these things before hand I know you well enough to know that if you thought Cobra was a scammer then we would not be here.
> 
> As far as Jano goes professional is a relative term in this world and you of all people should know that.  Useful is probably a better term since were being honest.  Pros in any environment dont have to panhandle for work on Reddit of all places.   Then swing by here offer help and skim threads because they are so busy...Do you see where our concern is for your Pro?
> 
> 
> janoshik 1 point 19 hours ago
> All too well, haha.
> Still got the maillist safely encrypted somewhere over there, just in case. "pls guise test stuff, I'm starving over here"
> 
> And were suppose to have our hat in our hand and give this guy some respect.  He needs money worse than respect.



Brother - I'm not sure if I expressed my self clearly, so I'll repeat and clarify, Cobra is my customer, if u read back I said I'll do my best to make him happy period. I asked Cobra for a honest feedback and so he did, I can't say I'm happy with his attitude with last posts using the F word after all the help I supplied to him nut it's peanuts and anyone I guess may xpress his feelings, it makes things more interesting. Aain and again - I'll do my best to ensure no bitter taste is left here. I speculate simply that his serum test doesn't reflect the quality, and it's based on vast experience backed by facts. Not sure why u reflect my comment on scammer to him ?!
I'm here to work with all of you, or at least share some experience, after all we have a mutual goal - getting solid stable quality to the customers, and have the source be responsible and responsive to any issue and to any customer


----------



## BigGameHunter

janoshik said:


> How many other individuals in the world are there who had conducted literally *hundreds* of tests on anabolics and dozens on HGH?
> 
> That kinda, by definition, makes me a professional. Ill-tempered, I admit, but professional nevertheless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, is quoting that post of mine supposed to prove something?
> 
> I'd say that the humour like that is really hard to miss, but I guess you are not too much fun at the parties.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I had already mentioned, I'm not here to defend anybody or anything, push any agenda, or argue with humourless individuals, but to do my job, which is testing stuff and finding out what can be wrong.



You not having enough repeat customers to keep you from begging is humor enough.  As far as you riding in to save the day you fuked that up a long time ago.  Bottom line is we dont trust you to give a fair analysis of anything other than a free meal...you being so hungry and all.  

Its not only that we dont trust you because your starving, or who called you in to help this situation.  For me, its based to your previous post here about being such a busy guy and your propensity to beg for work at another spot.  Your lying to someone arent you?   As far as humor goes my reply to you was pretty funny and you know damn well it was.  Thats why you didnt answer the question.  You knew damn good and well what I was getting at.


----------



## sciroxx

Pls stop attacking Jonashik, no need nasty remarks, I got his attention to this thread, I couldn't predict you'll have such mistrust, he simply supplies available and reliable analysis, and he proved himself as a trustworthy to work with on professionalmuscle as his tests matched other authorized lab

I'm sorry this is my mistake, and my bad, this is your realm, u know whom to trust, and trust is not built in a day, I still suggest that we test by any means at any lab u like to.


----------



## BigGameHunter

sciroxx said:


> Pls stop attacking Jonashik, no need nasty remarks, I got his attention to this thread, I couldn't predict you'll have such mistrust, he simply supplies available and reliable analysis, and he proved himself as a trustworthy to work with on professionalmuscle as his tests matched other authorized lab
> 
> I'm sorry this is my mistake, and my bad, this is your realm, u know whom to trust, and trust is not built in a day, I still suggest that we test by any means at any lab u like to.



They are replies not attacks but I get your point.  Put him on a tighter leash or up his meds since its him that cant keep his mouth shut.  For you I will do that and only promise to see how it goes. 

I have to be honest here I think if I were you, I would have already re sent everything back to him and asked him to re do this experiment.  Since I had a lot to gain from feed back from a guy like this on a board like this one.

Im also a bit surprised by what appears to be an aloof attitude on your part that this problem "could" be on your end.  If not the product then perhaps the chain of custody.  Shit happens and not even entertaining that idea is burdensome to me.


----------



## sciroxx

There is no point that Cobra will test IGF1 again, I'm confident that this is his body reaction, and have seen this with heavy AAS users (this is why I asked for a recent IGF1 test from him repeatedly), I brought here respected vets to testify, and posted many links, the admin told me that he deleted them, I respect it, this is his forum, and it's ridiculous to promote here tests from other rival forums indeed. What cobra may do is to make GH serum test to get an indication to the present of GH and its quantity, and simultaneously make HPLC analysis to recognize 191 AA structure and purity

I understand where you're coming from with the notion of shit happens, it may be the case in almost any UG operation, including Sciroxx operation, we all know it, but not here, Cobra got perfect quality from me, I have no doubt, and there may be no doubt, we run a GMP manufacturing on the GH, I said million times already that we may test it.

The truth can't hide for long, you, same as any member, and above all any mod, supermod or admin are welcome to test


----------



## Maijah

Just because you've had hundreds of kids that just started lifting use your igf and make gains means nothing, of course they are gonna see gains, they have only been lifting for 6 months.


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Hi. For all of you interested, I work with Amway. We have some great specials on igf and GH, just visit our website. 


Rep promo code -8675309

Edit: promo code gets you BOGO on most items on your first visit.


----------



## gymrat827

nothing is going to change our minds about the product.  We have a solid test subject who ran it for a while, if you thought he would of just taken your shit and ran..........you wouldnt of agreed to have him test it.  

your not going to pull any type of science or user or whatever issue you claim happened and thats why there was just terrible results.  We ran a test, got the results, sorry that they didnt go well.  


END OF STORY, again, nothing you say is going to change anyone's mind whose been here 3 months or longer.


----------



## sciroxx

It makes sense...

There is no reference for recent tests from this subject, no base line, I offered to continue the testing by any means, so we'll learn, but it's your call, above all I surprised to hear such from a supermod that suppose to be somewhat more open minded, objective, and offer a balanced point of view, I feel that you should raise the glove for more test from more members, I almost feel like there is some agenda here, but it's probably just a paranoia in the back of my head

I mailed a couple of days ago to Cobra to try and work out with him, I will respect any promise or statement I made, so feel welcome to contact me at any time

I came here to show respect and introduce my products, I regret it turn out to be such experience, we all live and learn


----------



## Maijah

I've never ran gh or igf. If you want to send me your product I will take pre and post bloods.  I have been off gear for almost a year


----------



## sciroxx

We may do it Maijah, Tks for the offer, will contact u in less then 12 hours, have to catch a flight, good evening guys


----------



## killroy

Recent assay analysis coordinated by Dr.Jim & Mands over at Meso of two (2) somastim vials individually donated by meso members... confirm the presence of GH content, albeit slightly underdosed (30%) ... so theoretically Cobra administered 4.2 iu instead of 6iu in the last month ... which still should've elevated his igf values.    

There is quantitative analysis of the somastim product performed/funded by members of three separately ran boards in the past year or more... eroids, professionalmuscle.com and meso..   While they vary on exactly how much rHGH is present, and each is subject to interpretation and debate.... all three confirm the contents as 191aa rHGH from -30% to +30% vs label claims. 

Given this data, and the swath of positive GH serum / IGF1 blood reports posted on boards... its hard dismiss the somastim product as completely bunk....  

It appears with Cobra, there are other undetermined factors at play here as his results conflict with most of the data currently out there on the somastim product...  Just my .02c.


----------



## Cobra Strike

scrioxx...i paid for the gh. I paid for the test. I paid for the needles. I put in the work and the dedication. How does that work out as you helping me? If anything it was me helping you. You sent me the des  to try for free which was nice because I was willing to buy it to try it. That's the help you gave me.

I ran that gh to he very last bottle. I did the test while on the last vial. I wanted to give it the most amount of time I could to let it get the best chance to raise my igf. I cannot send any vials to anyone out of my kit because I used them all. I've said this previously but since we have people here that like to speak before thinking I am repeating it. 

My liver 1qvalues are not high at all. Do you know anything about human physiology? An alcoholics liver values can be higher than 500 a day. My values are slightly elevated from normal level. like 10 points. That means absolutely nothing. You should consult a physician like I do for all my blood work. 

I am not asking for you to replace anything. I knew the risk when I bought it. Regardless of what everyone elses tests look like I am going to believe the one I ran. That is not speculation..that is the most hardcore evidence one can provide. A guy doesn't get out of the death penalty for murder because they found him with the body and holding the murder weapon then calling that evidence speculation. 

and forgive me for using such harsh and hurtful words like Fuk. I use that in almost every sentence and it doesnt ever hurt my feelings when others use it. To each there own.


----------



## BigGameHunter

Cobra Strike said:


> I ran that gh to he very last bottle. I did the test while on the last vial. I wanted to give it the most amount of time I could to let it get the best chance to raise my igf. I cannot send any vials to anyone out of my kit because I used them all. I've said this previously but since we have people here that like to speak before thinking I am repeating it



Hence the "skimming the thread" reference I was making.  I guess Its easier to propose a test on something that is no longer available.


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> It makes sense...
> 
> There is no reference for recent tests from this subject, no base line, I offered to continue the testing by any means, so we'll learn, but it's your call, above all I surprised to hear such from a supermod that suppose to be somewhat more open minded, objective, and offer a balanced point of view, I feel that you should raise the glove for more test from more members, I almost feel like there is some agenda here, but it's probably just a paranoia in the back of my head
> 
> I mailed a couple of days ago to Cobra to try and work out with him, I will respect any promise or statement I made, so feel welcome to contact me at any time
> 
> I came here to show respect and introduce my products, I regret it turn out to be such experience, we all live and learn



I'm one mean supermod

Just live with it.


----------



## Cobra Strike

and speaking of no reference tests to show previous levels has no bearing on the test I just ran. The only test that matters is the test that I did on the somastin...not tests I have done on other products.


----------



## killroy

Cobra Strike said:


> and speaking of no reference tests to show previous levels has no bearing on the test I just ran. The only test that matters is the test that I did on the somastin...not tests I have done on other products.



To the contrary ... labs drawn at baseline and during the administration of other exogenous hgh products and resultant igf1 increase via  signaling/synthesis/secretion could provide great insight into your particular bio response and trends.

We all uniquely respond to exogenous Hgh administration in terms of IGF1 levels.  There is no standard.


----------



## sciroxx

Cobra you can have no prob with me, I mailed u 3 days ago so u may kindly reply, we may conduct this conversation here as well if it's more fun, I simply offered to send GH for GH serum testing, and of course you may send to analysis. If you have other demands or suggestion like always you'll see my full cooperation. I guarantee the quality and you may see that u got perfect quality.
I looked again on your blood results - I agree that your liver values are very normal for your muscle mess and for AAS usage, I totally agree, I'm not sure about the mechanism that may cause lower IGF1 serum response, but I posted links and showed this in heavy AAS users, not common but I've encountered this.
Just to remind everyone Cobra reported that previously he used 5 kits of authentic pharma grade IGF1 with no response as well, which is not normal at least based on my experience, I'm not sure, anyhow anything else is a speculation which I can't be sure about the reply

Cobra (refers as well to BigGameHunter suggestion that a random product can't be tested due to lake of products) - I know as a fact that you've just got few days ago 2 full kits of IGF1-DES, u may happily send them for testing of AA analysis, so we see perfect pharma grade (when say pharma I refer to perfect structure, above 98% purity, Toxin count below 5 units per ml and pharma will also include biological assay in which the interaction with living cells is tested in vitro but this is quite expensive, and ran on registration, not on any batch)


----------



## janoshik

Cobra Strike said:


> scrioxx...i paid for the gh. I paid for the test. I paid for the needles. I put in the work and the dedication. How does that work out as you helping me? If anything it was me helping you. You sent me the des  to try for free which was nice because I was willing to buy it to try it. That's the help you gave me.
> 
> I ran that gh to he very last bottle. I did the test while on the last vial. I wanted to give it the most amount of time I could to let it get the best chance to raise my igf. I cannot send any vials to anyone out of my kit because I used them all. I've said this previously but since we have people here that like to speak before thinking I am repeating it.
> 
> My liver 1qvalues are not high at all. Do you know anything about human physiology? An alcoholics liver values can be higher than 500 a day. My values are slightly elevated from normal level. like 10 points. That means absolutely nothing. You should consult a physician like I do for all my blood work.
> 
> I am not asking for you to replace anything. I knew the risk when I bought it. Regardless of what everyone elses tests look like I am going to believe the one I ran. That is not speculation..that is the most hardcore evidence one can provide. A guy doesn't get out of the death penalty for murder because they found him with the body and holding the murder weapon then calling that evidence speculation.
> 
> and forgive me for using such harsh and hurtful words like Fuk. I use that in almost every sentence and it doesnt ever hurt my feelings when others use it. To each there own.



Thank you for explaining to me, Mr. Cobra, I had not noticed that you had used it all, I apologize. 

Regarding the liver values it is true.

My feelings were most definitely not hurt and I certainly don't mind a swear word here and there - it was the referring to me as an underling of Sciroxx that I found very rude.



BigGameHunter said:


> Hence the "skimming the thread" reference I was making.  I guess Its easier to propose a test on something that is no longer available.



Sod off <3

Got you an honourable mention right under the joke you seem to like to quote and not get at all.


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> Cobra you can have no prob with me, I mailed u 3 days ago so u may kindly reply, we may conduct this conversation here as well if it's more fun, I simply offered to send GH for GH serum testing, and of course you may send to analysis. If you have other demands or suggestion like always you'll see my full cooperation. I guarantee the quality and you may see that u got perfect quality.
> I looked again on your blood results - I agree that your liver values are very normal for your muscle mess and for AAS usage, I totally agree, I'm not sure about the mechanism that may cause lower IGF1 serum response, but I posted links and showed this in heavy AAS users, not common but I've encountered this.
> Just to remind everyone Cobra reported that previously he used 5 kits of authentic pharma grade IGF1 with no response as well, which is not normal at least based on my experience, I'm not sure, anyhow anything else is a speculation which I can't be sure about the reply
> 
> Cobra (refers as well to BigGameHunter suggestion that a random product can't be tested due to lake of products) - I know as a fact that you've just got few days ago 2 full kits of IGF1-DES, u may happily send them for testing of AA analysis, so we see perfect pharma grade (when say pharma I refer to perfect structure, above 98% purity, Toxin count below 5 units per ml and pharma will also include biological assay in which the interaction with living cells is tested in vitro but this is quite expensive, and ran on registration, not on any batch)



I've bought tons of LR3


From all sorts of spots.  The best thing I got was prolly an extremely weak product


Real LR3 is almost impossible to find.


----------



## sciroxx

I PMed u ..... we may trial out lr3, BTW - the implementation of the IGF1 in the E. Coli bacteria's DNA is more simple then GH, it's ~70 Amino Acid protein (GH is 191 Amino Acids)


----------



## Cobra Strike

killroy said:


> To the contrary ... labs drawn at baseline and during the administration of other exogenous hgh products and resultant igf1 increase via  signaling/synthesis/secretion could provide great insight into your particular bio response and trends.
> 
> We all uniquely respond to exogenous Hgh administration in terms of IGF1 levels.  There is no standard.



to the contrary, I stand next to my comment. every product has a different purity...none are made the same. even from batch to batch of the same brand most likely can have different purity levels. This means that no matter how many tests I post we cannot get an accurate insight on my bio without knowing every bit if info on each of the brand's I tested.  This would be what they call and uncontrollable. The only way previous testing would be controlled is if we new the exact purity of each brand...hence this test of the somastin is the only test that matters. I dont care what everyone else thinks...I Will not buy no matter what the claims or excuses are...the test shows complete failure. I have already stated that my baseline levels are right around the 130s before I ever started taking gh. I do not need to produce a physical test for that to be believable. It makes no difference to me what anyone believes. Buy it and test it yourself. I already know how I respond to it and that is all that matters...hence the somastin test is all that matters...not previous tests.




sciroxx said:


> Cobra you can have no prob with me, I mailed u 3 days ago so u may kindly reply, we may conduct this conversation here as well if it's more fun, I simply offered to send GH for GH serum testing, and of course you may send to analysis. If you have other demands or suggestion like always you'll see my full cooperation. I guarantee the quality and you may see that u got perfect quality.
> I looked again on your blood results - I agree that your liver values are very normal for your muscle mess and for AAS usage, I totally agree, I'm not sure about the mechanism that may cause lower IGF1 serum response, but I posted links and showed this in heavy AAS users, not common but I've encountered this.
> Just to remind everyone Cobra reported that previously he used 5 kits of authentic pharma grade IGF1 with no response as well, which is not normal at least based on my experience, I'm not sure, anyhow anything else is a speculation which I can't be sure about the reply
> 
> Cobra (refers as well to BigGameHunter suggestion that a random product can't be tested due to lake of products) - I know as a fact that you've just got few days ago 2 full kits of IGF1-DES, u may happily send them for testing of AA analysis, so we see perfect pharma grade (when say pharma I refer to perfect structure, above 98% purity, Toxin count below 5 units per ml and pharma will also include biological assay in which the interaction with living cells is tested in vitro but this is quite expensive, and ran on registration, not on any batch)



I did just receive the des that was sent before the test was posted. I do not have any more of the gh th and not trying to be rude but I have no ambition to try and test any more of it. A serum test at this point is worthless. I do not require any additional service or products. I'm not pissed off or feel like I was robbed. I did what I wamted to do...i got to test the igf and the growth. that's all I wanted. I am not trying to take scrioxx down. I just wanted to post my results and everyone can take them for what they are worth...which to me is everything.

as far as the authentic Pharm grade gh goes...I believe they were a fake. I've had high levels off a couple different products so when my levels come back low then I know it's something with the product not my physiology.


----------



## sciroxx

Just three comments Cobra 
- A GH serum test, which I sugegsted, will simply give na indication to the present of proper amount of GH in the product, that's the notion, and that is step one to asses my claims
- Pls post any older IGF1 tests, if they're more then a year old they don't necessarily indicate on your current condition, and again I posted link on this from most reliable vets on major forums. This is a remark not an accusation, you're not a lab rat, it's ok that you don't have constant tests bro 
- Each batch is different indeed as usaid, especially in genetic engineering which deals with living creatures (E. coli) . But each batch is tested and ensured above 98% purity. I may post here HPLC print of last batch, we may send a vial from u or ANY CUSTOMER, and you'll see 99.99% match !!!

Anyhow I appreciate your attitude, you have me when and if need me, you may reply my mail, I insist we'll try to make u happy, I insist as well that you got tested flawless GH. 
You're welcome to test he IGF1-DES by HPLC analysis if you like to or simply enjoy it and report

Tks again for your time and efforts, I know you're a bust businessman, I don't take it for granted that you post here on a daily basis


----------



## gymrat827

Dude lay off.  

Stop trying to give details of how or why cobra didn't respond.  

We don't believe any of this. 

Again we already had one guy test it, we see the results.  If u had such a huge following more people would of heard if you.  


I'm going to close this thread soon if this is just arguing back forth about the same shit.  It's 7 pages of it.


----------



## Buck1973

i will try again


----------



## Buck1973

I have been tryin to post here again 
 but it will only let me post a few words..


----------



## Buck1973

Mr. Cobra,
Many things affect a IGF-1 test.
You are not the first that has came up with a poor IGF-1 test and assumed it was low dosed or poor quality HGH...
I* Myself have been down this road 
when I go on Gear my Igf-1 scores will decrease on any HGH.
So if I am on scratch a IGF-1 test for me.


----------



## Buck1973

Not sure yr usage 
I am at the point were I am not questioning the HGH that I am taking but rather questioning if it is worth anything to be taking HGH while on...
So a major limitation for the IGF-1 test is Gear usage. Its very common for brotha's like us that are takin Exogenous HGH to also b associated with AAS use which in itself may for some reason hamper IGF-1 readins.


----------



## Buck1973

To go further if we are impairing our Liver even if its temporary this probably will also limit or impair HGH conversion into IGF-1.


----------



## Buck1973

The Serum test because we are taking a readin of HGH in the Blood at a specific time after administration should not be affected.


----------



## Buck1973

Its further upstream of havin to go through the whole conversion process... not with out its own set of limitations or flaws ...
further upstream would b analytical Labs. which again carries it's own set.


----------



## Buck1973

So for the record Mr. Karl did ask me to come here, NOT to defend him but to share what we and I have learned in Many many test of all kinds.
I myself have many HGH Serum tests not to cheerlead a product but to learn and test these tests also IGF-1 tests i have used and am still doing weekly for the same reasom to learn and put these tests to the test.
I have dealt with Mr. Jano also in pvt testin and on A forum we have in common.
He field of xpertise is Analytical testin. So i have tests on this as well.
all I am sayin is dont make the mistake or deceive yrself b/c we are ignorant (meanin not knowin) of these tests that we do.
The latest Bro science trend it seems to me is to discount the HGH Serum test and regard the IGF-1 test as the ultimate standard.
Not sure why that is spreadin like it is.
So My statement I will repeat 
Know the limitations of any test you do.
Much luck


Peace


----------



## Buck1973

Not sure why But that is how I had to post this to get it to work.....
But if you put it all together that is my response


----------



## Buck1973

Cobra Strike said:


> Please explain these test "limitations"





Mr. Cobra,
Many things affect a IGF-1 test.
You are not the first that has came up with a poor IGF-1 test and assumed it was low dosed or poor quality HGH...
I* Myself have been down this road 
when I go on Gear my Igf-1 scores will decrease on any HGH.
So if I am on scratch a IGF-1 test for me.
Not sure yr usage 
I am at the point were I am not questioning the HGH that I am taking but rather questioning if it is worth anything to be taking HGH while on...
So a major limitation for the IGF-1 test is Gear usage. Its very common for brotha's like us that are takin Exogenous HGH to also b associated with AAS use which in itself may for some reason hamper IGF-1 readins.
To go further if we are impairing our Liver even if its temporary this probably will also limit or impair HGH conversion into IGF-1.
The Serum test because we are taking a readin of HGH in the Blood at a specific time after administration should not be affected. Its further upstream of havin to go through the whole conversion process... not with out its own set of limitations or flaws ...
further upstream would b analytical Labs. which again carries it's own set.

So for the record Mr. Karl did ask me to come here, NOT to defend him but to share what we and I have learned in Many many test of all kinds.
I myself have many HGH Serum tests not to cheerlead a product but to learn and test these tests also IGF-1 tests i have used and am still doing weekly for the same reasom to learn and put these tests to the test.
I have dealt with Mr. Jano also in pvt testin and on A forum we have in common.
He field of xpertise is Analytical testin. So i have tests on this as well.
all I am sayin is dont make the mistake or deceive yrself b/c we are ignorant (meanin not knowin) of these tests that we do.
The latest Bro science trend it seems to me is to discount the HGH Serum test and regard the IGF-1 test as the ultimate standard.
Not sure why that is spreadin like it is.
So My statement I will repeat 
Know the limitations of any test you do.
Much luck


Peace


----------



## GuerillaKilla

I've taken bloods both on blasts and while on TRT doses while running the same doses of the same brand of GH and they both come back nearly identical. 

Not sure where you are getting that running gear will drop igf test level results for guys who are running GH and gear as well. Let's acknowledge that most guys running GH and getting it tested (namely folks just like myself and Mr Cobra) are almost ALWAYS running gear while they are doing it, have a history of running gear, and nearly all of them that are running legitimate GH see IGF scores well above the results that Mr Cobra showed.


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Buck1973 said:


> I am at the point were I am not questioning the HGH that I am taking but rather questioning if it is worth anything to be taking HGH while on...
> So a major limitation for the IGF-1 test is Gear usage. Its very common for brotha's like us that are takin Exogenous HGH to also b associated with AAS use which in itself may for some reason hamper IGF-1 readins.
> The latest Bro science trend it seems to me is to discount the HGH Serum test and regard the IGF-1 test as the ultimate standard.



To claim that HGH is pointless on cycle and then add another claim that AAS alone or combined with GH = lower IGF1 readings is why your opinions are completely devoid of any value on this board:

Testosterone enhances the effect of growth hormone (GH) to increase IGF-I but exerts an anabolic effect that is independent of GH action
*"Addition of testosterone to GH resulted in a further increase in IGF-I (to 26.4 plus/minus 2.7 nanomoles per litre, p<0.05), a further reduction in oxidation and further stimulation of synthesis (p<0.05). 
Testosterone alone did not alter IGF-I (11.6 plus/minus 1.2 to 11.8 plus/minus 1.2 nanomoles per litre), but reduced oxidation and increased synthesis (p<0.05). 
In summary, testosterone replacement in hypopituitary adults increased circulating IGF-I, only during concomitant administration of GH."*

The IGF-1 test is the gold standard within the medical community for determining the efficacy of both GH & IGF-1 so yea..."broscience" it certainly is NOT:
Quantification of insulin-like growth factor-1 in dried blood spots for detection of growth hormone abuse in sport

Let's cut the bullshit and accept the fact that Cobra's test run with this product was a massive failure - soomething that became clear quite a few pages ago


----------



## GuerillaKilla

MrRippedZilla said:


> To claim that HGH is pointless on cycle and then add another claim that AAS alone or combined with GH = lower IGF1 readings is why your opinions are completely devoid of any value on this board:
> 
> Testosterone enhances the effect of growth hormone (GH) to increase IGF-I but exerts an anabolic effect that is independent of GH action
> *"Addition of testosterone to GH resulted in a further increase in IGF-I (to 26.4 plus/minus 2.7 nanomoles per litre, p<0.05), a further reduction in oxidation and further stimulation of synthesis (p<0.05).
> Testosterone alone did not alter IGF-I (11.6 plus/minus 1.2 to 11.8 plus/minus 1.2 nanomoles per litre), but reduced oxidation and increased synthesis (p<0.05).
> In summary, testosterone replacement in hypopituitary adults increased circulating IGF-I, only during concomitant administration of GH."*
> 
> The IGF-1 test is the gold standard within the medical community for determining the efficacy of both GH & IGF-1 so yea..."broscience" it certainly is NOT:
> Quantification of insulin-like growth factor-1 in dried blood spots for detection of growth hormone abuse in sport
> 
> Let's cut the bullshit and accept the fact that Cobra's test run with this product was a massive failure - soomething that became clear quite a few pages ago



Shut up the fukk up Melania! Getting real tired of you plagiarizing my speeches and using bigger words so that you sound more anencephalous than I do.


----------



## Buck1973

GuerillaKilla said:


> I've taken bloods both on blasts and while on TRT doses while running the same doses of the same brand of GH and they both come back nearly identical.
> 
> *Not sure where you are getting that running gear will drop igf test level *results for guys who are running GH and gear as well. Let's acknowledge that most guys running GH and getting it tested (namely folks just like myself and Mr Cobra) are almost ALWAYS running gear while they are doing it, have a history of running gear, and nearly all of them that are running legitimate GH see IGF scores well above the results that Mr Cobra showed.



were i get this is from my testin.. which I have done several times and could post.
I would b intrested in seein yrs.....
 What I said is ,,,"I* Myself have been down this road 
when I go on Gear my Igf-1 scores will decrease on any HGH.
So if I am on. scratch a IGF-1 test for me" 
 It would not b a surprise to me if others had similar results....


----------



## GuerillaKilla

I'd be more interested in seeing Mr Cobra run the same test with legit GH and watching his scores come back where everyone knows they should be.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Someone correct me if I. Wrong but doesn't FDA/WHO guidelines prescribe that for rHGH to be accepted it must pass both in vitro tests (analytical testing) AND in vivo (serum tests like IGF 1)? As I've said from the beginning, you could have something with the correct MW in analytical testing but if it's biologically inactive bc of a wrong sequence or wrong folding pattern in the AA bonds it is a worthless product. 

Here is a WADA excerpt. If serum IGF 1 scores are enough for them to detect HGH use, I think it should be enough for us. Notice how they also tested for many factors that could influence the biological response and the resulting IGF 1 score. 



8. WHAT IS THE HGH BIOMARKERS TEST (THE ‘MARKERS APPROACH)? UP

hGH affects the expression of many different proteins which may serve as biological markers of hGH activity.  These include markers of hGH action in the liver such as IGF-I, as well as markers of hGH action on soft tissue collagen turnover, such as the N-terminal peptide of procollagen type III (P-III-NP). The measurement of these two hGH markers in serum may serve to uncover the manipulation of the hGH/IGF-I axis independently of the doping substance used, be it recGH or other agents used to increase circulating hGH [for example analogs of GH-releasing hormone (GHRH), hGH secretagogues such as GH-releasing peptides (GHRP) or even hGH gene doping]. The detection and quantification of such biomarkers of hGH activity constitute the rationale of the indirect method for detection of doping with hGH, referred to as the ‘markers approach’.

9. ARE THE HGH TESTS RELIABLE? UP

The concepts and development of both hGH tests have been systematically reviewed by international independent experts in such fields as hGH and IGF-I, endocrinology, immunoassay, analytical chemistry, pharmacology, laboratory work, anti-doping, etc., and published in international scientific journals.

The 2013 Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) decision on the FIS vs. Veerpalu case confirmed that the current Isoforms Test is robust and scientifically reliable. As a result of criticism expressed by the CAS Panel on the statistical procedure originally applied to the determination of the test’s DLs, new statistical analyses were performed on an increased number of hGH doping control data (samples from athletes treated under real doping control conditions of sample collection, transportation, storage and analysis, including standardized analytical protocols and instrumentation) by two independent teams of statisticians. The results of the study have been published in an independent peer-reviewed scientific journal specialized in GH and IGF-I research.

The revised DLs have been incorporated into a new version of the Guidelines on hGH Isoform Differential Immunoassays for anti-doping analyses, available on WADA’s website. These Guidelines continue to provide direction on the sample pre-analytical preparation procedure, the performance of the test and the interpretation and reporting of the test results.

For more information on the process followed to determine the test’s DLs, please consult Hanley JA et al. “hGH isoforms differential immunoassays applied to blood samples from athletes: decision limits for anti-doping testing”. Growth Hormone & IGF Research, 2014.

The scientific validity and efficacy of the hGH biomarkers approach has been documented in multiple scientific publications for over a decade. A series of placebo-controlled recombinant recGH administration studies performed in Europe and Australia has shown that both IGF-I and P-III-NP rise substantially following recGH administration in a dose-dependent manner. These markers have been evaluated for several confounding factors that might influence the scores of the discriminant functions, including age, gender, ethnicity, exercise, diurnal and day-to-day variation, intra-individual variation, bony and soft tissue injury, sporting discipline, and body habitus (physique). Nevertheless, before resuming its implementation in WADA-accredited laboratories, the study on the determination of the DLs for the new assays will be also subjected to independent peer review and publication in an international scientific journal.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/human-growth-hormone-hgh-testing#item-645


----------



## ECKSRATED

When I read all you smart fukkers posts I get a headache. Lol


----------



## DocDePanda187123

ECKSRATED said:


> When I read all you smart fukkers posts I get a headache. Lol



That's weird bc when I read your posts I get a hardon and wet dream about the day you walked into my life....


----------



## GuerillaKilla

^^^^thats brownspeak for "I have a man crush on you"


----------



## sciroxx

I'm trying to reply to some of the claims here, which all I find as relevant

1. Testosterone potentiate the GH effect on IGF1 secretion indeed, simple fact is that women has much higher serum GH levels but somewhat lower IGF1, so yes generally this is the case

2. When developing a drug both in vivo and in vitro tests are made, but of course in vivo tests are not done on production. FDA clinical efficiency at phase 1 on rats, the test is actually very interesting and done for my best memory at phase 1 - u take a couple of dozens of rats, taking off the piturity gland, and giving half the GH product and the other half nothing ..... and monitor the linear and other growths, the ones who are not given with the GH stay dwarfs rats, and the ones who are given the GH are growing to be normal, and even normal ++. The simple test on every batch is for purity and quantity by a couple of analytical methods. Never on any FDA approvals or applications any serum tests on humans are even considered or referred to. In some clinical check up by doctors the IGF1 serum tests is measured to stabilize the dosage given to a patient (dwarfism and such), the serum test is a useful tool to get some indication, so athletes uses it

I state that across many dozens of serum tests I've never encountered any accusation for offering bunk products, we have encountered in some cases both low GH serum score, as well as low IGF1 score, these are the minority, but certainly have happened, and BTW always caused some drama  after parallel evaluation (for instance checking IGF1 for low serum GH or checking GH serum for low IGF1 score) it was found that the product was of a perfect quality and quantity. Generally taking GH with steroids results in pronounced IGF1 elevations, I've seen up to 600+ with 7-8iu, but this is not a rule. We've done an extensive work on professionalmuscle on this, and yes yes yes, few members there had low IGF1 score, there were all heavy AAS users, one of them posted here - his IGF1 score was 120 on 5 iu a day ! while after checking serum GH it was consistently 20+ and finally when analyzed in a lb it was found to be perfect 191 AA HGH at 21-28iu a vial (declred 20) depends on the exact test. You're all welcome to check a thread which is dedicated and titled as GH testing there with all of this interesting info


----------



## Yaya

My friend used sciroxx on the past and liked it.. a girl I know is on the clen and happy


----------



## sciroxx

Suggesting or even considering the notion that I would send anything but a perfect GH product for testing to a honest member is somewhat ridiculous, I sent the GH and IGF1 as samples for promotion from my good own will, I knew he would test it. We may test again, discuss and claim different claims, and maybe on some points I'll be proven wrong, but simply saying "he sent bunk" based on one test of one individual pulls the rug under the great reputation this forum has as unbiased and professional one.

I have no personal accusation to no one here of course, I see yo're all trying to get to the truth, but just consider the obvious


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Love all the new members who joined in Nov 2016 to defend Sciroxx....must be a coincidence.

I had some sciroxx halo years ago that was amazing.


----------



## sciroxx

I apologize - my post from 9:46 wasn't clear enough, I repeat on it, has some interesting info concerning some of the issues which were raised


1. Testosterone potentiate the GH effect on IGF1 secretion indeed, simple fact is that women has much higher serum GH levels but somewhat lower IGF1, so yes generally this is the case

2. When developing a drug both in vivo and in vitro tests are made. The in vivo test is actually very interesting and done for my best memory at phase 1 - it's done by taking a couple of dozens of young rats, then taken off their piturity gland, half of them are givien GH product and the other half are not treated by anything ..... then their linear growth and other development charachters are monitored, the untreated ones stay dwarfs and the treated are showing excellent growth results. On production each batch is tested for potency and purity by a couple of chemistry analytical methods. Never on any FDA approvals or applications any serum tests on humans are even considered or referred to. In some clinical treatments the IGF1 serum tests is is used to measure and stabilize the dosage given to a patient (dwarfism and such conditions), the serum test is a useful tool to get some indication, so athletes use it for this purpose, but this is certainly not an analytical tool



I state that across many dozens of serum tests I've never encountered any accusation for offering bunk products, we have encountered in some cases both low GH serum score, as well as low IGF1 score, these are the minority, but certainly have happened, and BTW always caused some drama  after parallel evaluation (for instance checking IGF1 for low serum GH or checking GH serum for low IGF1 score) it was found that the product was of a perfect quality and quantity. Generally taking GH with steroids results in pronounced IGF1 elevations, I've seen up to 600+ with 7-8iu, but this is not a rule. We've done an extensive work on professionalmuscle on this, and yes yes yes, few members there had low IGF1 score, there were all heavy AAS users, one of them posted here - his IGF1 score was 120 on 5 iu a day ! while after checking serum GH it was consistently 20+ and finally when analyzed in a lb it was found to be perfect 191 AA HGH at 21-28iu a vial (declred 20) depends on the exact test. You're all welcome to check a thread which is dedicated and titled as GH testing there with all of this interesting info


----------



## gymrat827

DieYoungStrong said:


> Love all the new members who joined in Nov 2016 to defend Sciroxx....must be a coincidence.
> 
> I had some sciroxx halo years ago that was amazing.



Right....

Odd we just got a bunch of guys who have only proped him on a pedestal and haven't posted in 1 other section still to date.  


Just me or what???   I guess we must be the only 2 guys who have really noticed.


----------



## automatondan

gymrat827 said:


> Right....
> 
> Odd we just got a bunch of guys who have only proped him on a pedestal and haven't posted in 1 other section still to date.
> 
> 
> Just me or what???   I guess we must be the only 2 guys who have really noticed.



From what I have gathered, Siroxx has invited them here from other boards to back up his claims with their personal blood tests and testimonies... They are presumed to be vet members of other boards... His hope is that their claims plus his own would be enough to make us consider his side of the story as reality instead of the findings of our own brother whom we trust here. Good luck with that.


----------



## Buck1973

GuerillaKilla said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing Mr Cobra run the same test with legit GH and watching his scores come back where everyone knows they should be.



Brilliant,
 I hope we see just that...


----------



## Buck1973

automatonDan said:


> From what I have gathered, Siroxx has invited them here from other boards to back up his claims with their personal blood tests and testimonies... They are presumed to be vet members of other boards... His hope is that their claims plus his own would be enough to make us consider his side of the story as reality instead of the findings of our own brother whom we trust here. Good luck with that.



As I said from the start, Mr. Karl did invite me here, NOT for defense but to share what we have learned through Our testin.
We are Vets Of Life and AAS and HGH use. I have no Claims only results.
Trust YR Own Brotha, Hopefully his testin continues....


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Mr. Cobra, please find a GH of your choice and run it in the same fashion as this sciroxx test, and post your off numbers. I have a feeling they will be much higher. 

Also for the record I loved my sciroxx clen 40mgs.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

GuerillaKilla said:


> ^^^^thats brownspeak for "I have a man crush on you"



I prefer it referred to as beigespeak as I'm typing this from my safe zone and would expect more political correctness from you GK!


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> I apologize - my post from 9:46 wasn't clear enough, I repeat on it, has some interesting info concerning some of the issues which were raised
> 
> 
> 1. Testosterone potentiate the GH effect on IGF1 secretion indeed, simple fact is that women has much higher serum GH levels but somewhat lower IGF1, so yes generally this is the case
> 
> 2. When developing a drug both in vivo and in vitro tests are made. The in vivo test is actually very interesting and done for my best memory at phase 1 - it's done by taking a couple of dozens of young rats, then taken off their piturity gland, half of them are givien GH product and the other half are not treated by anything ..... then their linear growth and other development charachters are monitored, the untreated ones stay dwarfs and the treated are showing excellent growth results. On production each batch is tested for potency and purity by a couple of chemistry analytical methods. Never on any FDA approvals or applications any serum tests on humans are even considered or referred to. In some clinical treatments the IGF1 serum tests is is used to measure and stabilize the dosage given to a patient (dwarfism and such conditions), the serum test is a useful tool to get some indication, so athletes use it for this purpose, but this is certainly not an analytical tool
> 
> 
> 
> I state that across many dozens of serum tests I've never encountered any accusation for offering bunk products, we have encountered in some cases both low GH serum score, as well as low IGF1 score, these are the minority, but certainly have happened, and BTW always caused some drama  after parallel evaluation (for instance checking IGF1 for low serum GH or checking GH serum for low IGF1 score) it was found that the product was of a perfect quality and quantity. Generally taking GH with steroids results in pronounced IGF1 elevations, I've seen up to 600+ with 7-8iu, but this is not a rule. We've done an extensive work on professionalmuscle on this, and yes yes yes, few members there had low IGF1 score, there were all heavy AAS users, one of them posted here - his IGF1 score was 120 on 5 iu a day ! while after checking serum GH it was consistently 20+ and finally when analyzed in a lb it was found to be perfect 191 AA HGH at 21-28iu a vial (declred 20) depends on the exact test. You're all welcome to check a thread which is dedicated and titled as GH testing there with all of this interesting info



You state that:

Never on any FDA approvals or applications any serum tests on humans are even considered or referred to. In some clinical treatments the IGF1 serum tests is is used to measure and stabilize the dosage given to a patient (dwarfism and such conditions), the serum test is a useful tool to get some indication, so athletes use it for this purpose, but this is certainly not an analytical tool. 

Then why does the FDA specifically refer to them? Read the following 

CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
In vitro, preclinical, and clinical tests have demonstrated that somatropins are therapeutically equivalent to human growth hormone of pituitary origin and achieve similar pharmacokinetic profiles in normal adults. In pediatric patients who have growth hormone deficiency (GHD), treatment with somatropin stimulates linear growth and normalizes concentrations of Insulin-like Growth Factor -I (IGF-I).
In adults with GHD, treatment with somatropin results in reduced fat mass, increased lean body mass, metabolic alterations that include beneficial changes in lipid metabolism, and normalization of IGF-I concentrations.
In addition, the following actions have been demonstrated for OMNITROPETM and/or somatropin.
1. Tissue Growth
A. Skeletal Growth:
Somatropin stimulates skeletal growth in pediatric patients with GHD. The measurable increase in body length after administration of somatropin results from an effect on the epiphyseal plates of long bones. Concentrations of IGF-I, which may play a role in skeletal growth, are generally low in the serum


https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2006/021426lbl.pdf


----------



## sciroxx

Doc - let me pls try to explain what your "google" search is referred to - in certain phases of evaluating of ANY drug the accumulation and clearance of the product from the serum is tested. The pharmacokinetcis of the drug by evaluation of serum tests is done to learn and trace the "behavious of the drug in the body. In the case of GH (like for instance testosterone) you provide replacement therapy so you asses of course the present and functioning of the drug as a replacement to the endogenous hormone.

This is NOT a tool to asses the purity, quantity or potency of the drug ! If you like doc I may PM or mail u with full chemical and biological assay done on GH drug by FDA, it doesn't include serum tests. I don't want to confuse the members here with too much info, but in a nutshell a set of chemical assay done by HPLC to evaluate the purity and configuration of the drug (amino acid analysis in this case), and a set of biological assay is ran as well, the in vitro tests check the degree of activation of receptor of the drug when exposing it to the product - this is actually the main criteria of biological assay, as it's practical to do it on any batch, not too complicated or expensive (for my best memory it takes 3-7 days), as as explained before there is a tedious in vivo test done on mice, refer back to my former post.

So if a vial of lets say a new GH product is examined by the FDA they don't just say ... hey lets take a dozen of subjects and make them serum tests and we know if it's good  what they do is following the set of tests mentioned above. The serum tests may give some indications, and there is a huge statistic range as u may see in any serum evaluation ! but this is not the accurate tool to asses purity or potency !







DocDePanda187123 said:


> You state that:
> 
> Never on any FDA approvals or applications any serum tests on humans are even considered or referred to. In some clinical treatments the IGF1 serum tests is is used to measure and stabilize the dosage given to a patient (dwarfism and such conditions), the serum test is a useful tool to get some indication, so athletes use it for this purpose, but this is certainly not an analytical tool.
> 
> Then why does the FDA specifically refer to them? Read the following
> 
> CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
> In vitro, preclinical, and clinical tests have demonstrated that somatropins are therapeutically equivalent to human growth hormone of pituitary origin and achieve similar pharmacokinetic profiles in normal adults. In pediatric patients who have growth hormone deficiency (GHD), treatment with somatropin stimulates linear growth and normalizes concentrations of Insulin-like Growth Factor -I (IGF-I).
> In adults with GHD, treatment with somatropin results in reduced fat mass, increased lean body mass, metabolic alterations that include beneficial changes in lipid metabolism, and normalization of IGF-I concentrations.
> In addition, the following actions have been demonstrated for OMNITROPETM and/or somatropin.
> 1. Tissue Growth
> A. Skeletal Growth:
> Somatropin stimulates skeletal growth in pediatric patients with GHD. The measurable increase in body length after administration of somatropin results from an effect on the epiphyseal plates of long bones. Concentrations of IGF-I, which may play a role in skeletal growth, are generally low in the serum
> 
> 
> https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2006/021426lbl.pdf


----------



## glycomann

I was actually contemplating purchase of some of this stuff but after reading the absolute bull s*it  coming from the rep I am going elsewhere.  Too bad because 6 months ago two vets I know stated the stuff was good.  Now I am wondering WTF. If someone is doing 5 iu of this stuff for a few weeks and their IGF-1 comes out in normal range than something is up.  And using co-administration of AAS as somehow confounding the test is absolute horse pucky.  AAS actually drive up IGF-1. Every vet I know that regularly uses GH uses that test to estimate the quality of their current supply or possibly supplies.  Roxx if you want to clear this up you need to send someone a kit that agrees to test it with a defined protocol.  Then they should post the scanned blood work result.


----------



## sciroxx

glycomann said:


> I was actually contemplating purchase of some of this stuff but after reading the absolute bull s*it  coming from the rep I am going elsewhere.  Too bad because 6 months ago two vets I know stated the stuff was good.  Now I am wondering WTF. If someone is doing 5 iu of this stuff for a few weeks and their IGF-1 comes out in normal range than something is up.  And using co-administration of AAS as somehow confounding the test is absolute horse pucky.  AAS actually drive up IGF-1. Every vet I know that regularly uses GH uses that test to estimate the quality of their current supply or possibly supplies.  Roxx if you want to clear this up you need to send someone a kit that agrees to test it with a defined protocol.  Then they should post the scanned blood work result.



 It's funny that you mention it ... I asked openly if anyone wants to test, I offered as well to Cobra to make GH serum test, and above all offered to make full analysis   I've contacted as well privately few members here for testing when this all started including a very high ranked member here, 

Bro - your friend who enjoyed my GH could not be wrong, actually ask any customer. I'm very confident in the product, and actually encourage anyone to place a random order and test, like many dozens of customer who have done it.

Lets be MORE clear - If you or any reliable member, or actually anyone, wants to test it pls contact me


----------



## glycomann

sciroxx said:


> It's funny that you mention it ... I asked openly if anyone wants to test, I offered as well to Cobra to make GH serum test, and above all offered to make full analysis   I've contacted as well privately few members here for testing when this all started including a very high ranked member here,
> 
> Bro - your friend who enjoyed my GH could not be wrong, actually ask any customer. I'm very confident in the product, and actually encourage anyone to place a random order and test, like many dozens of customer who have done it.
> 
> Lets be MORE clear - If you or any reliable member, or actually anyone, wants to test it pls contact me



Sciroxx,

I'm not interested in any freebees. As you know the GH market is full of fakes and poor quality products. I've actually heard from several vet level people that the Somastim is good but the time frame is far enough in the past that whwn some users see a recent poor report people start to doubt. I think what would clear this whole thing up might be to post links to threads where tests have been done and bloodwork posted. the more recent the better. Someone logging on with 1-4 posts just writing out that they had a decent result probably isn't going to convince anyone. If people have been testing all along then that shouldn't be difficult.


----------



## sciroxx

I posted here links to many recent tests, the links are deleted as it's not appropriated to post links on this forum from other competitive forums, tests from RANDOM customers appear on any major forum who deals with GH almost on a weekly basis, you may and should check and see. 

If an issue in an individual test happens, which is very rare, I'll help get to the root of it with u guys, quality will not lie


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> It's funny that you mention it ... I asked openly if anyone wants to test, I offered as well to Cobra to make GH serum test, and above all offered to make full analysis   I've contacted as well privately few members here for testing when this all started including a very high ranked member here,
> 
> Bro - your friend who enjoyed my GH could not be wrong, actually ask any customer. I'm very confident in the product, and actually encourage anyone to place a random order and test, like many dozens of customer who have done it.
> 
> Lets be MORE clear - If you or any reliable member, or actually anyone, wants to test it pls contact me



Buddy, lets get things on point here.....

your not the 1st to claim excellent GH and then have piss poor numbers.  No one is going to pay for a kit or 2 to see what it will test when we already have had a well known and respected member do this.  

Shit, a few guys know Cobra personally, like have met him at a meet or other a show.  Hate to say, you are brand new here.  Ive said this 5x now, we know what we are doing.  No matter what you try to argue with Doc, GK, etc we are going to continue to believe the ones who are well known, knowledgeable, esp when its backed up with a study.  


you are not the GH Messiah sent from god to teach us all about GH, IGF, etc.  Again, we are all not pro's, but have been around the block a few times and know whats up.  So if your talking about a freebie to a member, solely to have one run it and prove it will improve ones numbers.....okay.  But quit saying you have offered this many times to higher members.  

higher members know not to buy something thats going to be wayyyyyy less than a 50/50 shot.


----------



## sciroxx

I have no clue what is the relevance between the fact that a couple of members met Cobra in person to the fact that he got perfect quality product. I knew he would test the products, I encouraged him to do so, he got a specific result which is lower then he expected, I'm very confident in the quality he got, and he may and should still send it to AA analysis which I offered to pay for. 
More ever, by chance I contacted YOU 3 times last week as well and offered you to test it, like I did with other members, I may be new here, this is not a forum for sponsors, but anyone may check back the feedback along the thread on ANY item from Sciroxx, and if you do still have a doubt, and you do like to get a real life unbiased feedback trial it and learn...
Cobra made one test, if you reflect between this to the proven quality I offer it's a shame. I may almost feel that you and Cobra, who are close buddies in life, decided to thwart any offer from me to show real analysis or cooperate with the members for further tests, furthermore, Cobra got a couple of kits of IGF1-DES just as he posted it, I've tried to contact him, I assume he's been busy, if he doesn't like them he may send these back, or better send to full analysis. I'll try again to contact him


----------



## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> I have no clue what is the relevance between the fact that a couple of members met Cobra in person to the fact that he got perfect quality product. I knew he would test the products, I encouraged him to do so, he got a specific result which is lower then he expected, I'm very confident in the quality he got, and he may and should still send it to AA analysis which I offered to pay for.
> More ever, by chance I contacted YOU 3 times last week as well and offered you to test it, like I did with other members, I may be new here, this is not a forum for sponsors, but anyone may check back the feedback along the thread on ANY item from Sciroxx, and if you do still have a doubt, and you do like to get a real life unbiased feedback trial it and learn...
> Cobra made one test, if you reflect between this to the proven quality I offer it's a shame. I may almost feel that you and Cobra, who are close buddies in life, decided to thwart any offer from me to show real analysis or cooperate with the members for further tests, furthermore, Cobra got a couple of kits of IGF1-DES just as he posted it, I've tried to contact him, I assume he's been busy, if he doesn't like them he may send these back, or better send to full analysis. I'll try again to contact him



buddy, bro....

You contacted me once.  GH is costly stuff, im not going to pay for something i think & believe is going to turn out bad.  Would you buy a car that you know has problems......???  no.  Same principle applies here.  

Cobra and I are friends because of our 5yr hunt for REAL igf LR3.  So we did not pm one another about you, the products & this whole deal just to try to make you look bad or anything.  

All we want is good product.  

Search and you will see lots of threads on LR3 with him and I doing most of the talking.


----------



## sciroxx

If you would like to get a good product u would have tested it and draw real conclusions, it's somewhat amusing that on any major forum my products (along with the grey top) are consistently num' 1 ranked along years, and u doubt me, and based on possibly one report ?! I realize where u come from, I respect the skeptic approach , I'll contact u again and we'll try to make u a believer, at least I'll try to, it'll be interesting boss


----------



## Buck1973

Its takes some trial and error of the tests to learn the flaws and limitations of these tests.
Its good to see others doing these tests much luck to all those members and testers....


Peace


----------



## glycomann

I'll say that I was recently recommended the Somastim.  I know about 4 people running it now and all seem to be happy.  What turned me off was the discussion attempting to discredit the IGF-1 serum test whilst blaming AAS interference which is not correct. I might purchase and I might not.  I am so old and banged up at this point I don't really know if it's worth it now.


----------



## sciroxx

I posted very clearly that testosterone potentiate the GH impact on IGF1 secretion, and as a first evidence - women has much higher GH serum levels, and higher GH output secretion, but lower IGF1 levels. There are certain steroids which, especially with long run usage, may have some negative impact on IGF1 serum levels - I suspect the progesternic effect of some of them to cause this, this is an observation, not an absolute fact. Generally AAS potentiate the IGF1 secreteion, but by some mechanism, and again this is an observation, not a proven scientific fact, some heavy long run AAS users have showen low IGF1 response. This is not common but certainly been obserbved. I posted a link to a vet on another forum on which his IGF1 result was 120, everyone blamed first the GH including him, but the very same kits of GH which he got were tested perfectly in 3 different labs, and when he checked GH serum like I suggested it was perfect as well, it's well documented along a very very popular thread. Others described here the same phenomena as well. 
No one discredit any test, on the contrary, we learn from each and gather data to get a whole clear picture, but on the other hand it's foolish to draw conclusions from one test of on individual, and me personally find it outrageous that one would conceive that I may send knowingly a sample for testing which is nothing but perfect


----------



## glycomann

sciroxx said:


> I posted very clearly that testosterone potentiate the GH impact on IGF1 secretion, and as a first evidence - women has much higher GH serum levels, and higher GH output secretion, but lower IGF1 levels. There are certain steroids which, especially with long run usage, may have some negative impact on IGF1 serum levels - I suspect the progesternic effect of some of them to cause this, this is an observation, not an absolute fact. Generally AAS potentiate the IGF1 secreteion, but by some mechanism, and again this is an observation, not a proven scientific fact, some heavy long run AAS users have showen low IGF1 response. This is not common but certainly been obserbved. I posted a link to a vet on another forum on which his IGF1 result was 120, everyone blamed first the GH including him, but the very same kits of GH which he got were tested perfectly in 3 different labs, and when he checked GH serum like I suggested it was perfect as well, it's well documented along a very very popular thread. Others described here the same phenomena as well.
> No one discredit any test, on the contrary, we learn from each and gather data to get a whole clear picture, but on the other hand it's foolish to draw conclusions from one test of on individual, and me personally find it outrageous that one would conceive that I may send knowingly a sample for testing which is nothing but perfect



I never heard of such a thing.  Sounds like a neatly contrived anecdotal story.  And your testimony concerning the test could be interpreted such that you would send a bad kit if you knew it weren't to be tested.


----------



## Buck1973

glycomann said:


> I'll say that I was recently recommended the Somastim.  I know about 4 people running it now and all seem to be happy.  What turned me off was the discussion attempting to discredit the IGF-1 serum test whilst blaming AAS interference which is not correct. I might purchase and I might not.  I am so old and banged up at this point I don't really know if it's worth it now.



I rep for no one so let me say. 
I will tell you from many tests and xperience from testin that AAS use kills my IGF-1 levels, others I know have similar xperiences others do not. If you never heard of this you have now. 
 this is not a contrived story but fact....
I have arm fulls of tests that show this...
But you guys are correct and I agree with wat is said here that I am new and a outsider and cant b trusted .. with  that I say I hope those continue with there testin and learn how and what affects these tests.
For a tester to give 1 test and do no follow up or atleast listen to others opinions and xperiences openly without suspect. I myself as a tester would never do. I take it as a responsibility to be certain before postin claims or conclusions based on 1 test.
I have no doubt that Mr. Cobra had a lower than xpected IGF-1 score does that meen the HGH is fake, underdosed, or of poor quality?
Thats were its better to have as much info as possible before decidin...


----------



## GuerillaKilla

why on earth would anyone spend hard earned money on GH or IGF-Lr3 while running AAS if it isn't going to significantly impact/raise your IGF levels?


----------



## GuerillaKilla

I'll say this, the last few tests I've run on the GH I am taking (whilst on AAS) all show a significant (and consistent) high IGF score. Same for the hyges and rips as well. 

You mention other guys having lower than expected igf scores while running GH and say that it is because of AAS use. I've never in all my years come across someone running gear, that took legitimate growth hormone, that didn't see an elevation in igf scores that was to their liking. Never. 

To make sure we are on the same page, you're saying That not only has this happened to you but several others, and this is the first time that several long term members in this community (and others, for that matter) are hearing of it? Why are we first hearing of it now, and only in relation to the sciroxx product? I am on several boards, some of them much older than this, and so are several of the members here that are questioning the logic and reasoning of your explanation.

Lastly, if any of the 10+year users and members I know ever had an igf score like Mr Cobras after running IGF and GH And gear all together, they would not only call the products useless, they would be knocking on doors and getting money returned to them.


----------



## GuerillaKilla

Serum tests are fine, but if I saw a decent serum test and my IGF results running that GH came back as shit numbers I would never run it again.


----------



## sciroxx

You raised some interesting questions GuerillaKilla .

The Somastim is probably one of the most, if not the most tested GH lately. I posted links, there were deleted, anyhow any one may check on major forums, few tests are from last couple of weeks. Generally with almost EVERY subject, just as you described, there is a great IGF1 ELEVATION, you may write to me privately and I'll send u many links. There are serum tests reportys from beginners, advanced users as well as few pros, I'm talking about known pros, I'll ask permission today to post it here. Having said that we've encountered some cases in which the IGF1 response was lower then expected, in all cases we got to the root of it, and proved the QUALITY of the GH he tested beyond doubt.
I'm not referring ONLY to Somastim - about 4 weeks ago just as an example a known member tested GENOTROPIN by Prizer he got in Europe with 169 score after using 8 iu a day for months, this is the FIRST link I posted actually. This is certainly not common, but such has happened.
What makes me really wonder is that I said to Cobra to send the vials to real analysis, and also suggested a serum GH test, and you guys don't even READ what I wrote. I said I GUARANTEE the quality, I said Cobra should send the IGF1 he's just got to AA analysis.

GuerillaKilla - Why would u go in circles, making claims (and generally speaking I agree with most of your claims) instead of you testing this GH or the IGF1 and draw conclusions ? there is a GREAT effect to the addition of GH and IGF1 to AAS in most of individuals, and we all know it, it's HILARIOUS that we waste so many words on one test on one individual


----------



## sciroxx

One last comment - when one says that maybe we shipped one bad kit or so just show that he bases his experience on bathroom brewing products which is the case in some UG AAS products, this is not the case here. We're for my best knowledge the only one to produce GH outside of China, and it's done by full GMP standards. I may send the inclusion body of the E coli bacteria (this is the E. Coli bacteria witn the GH implemented in its DNA) to any independent lab u like me to, this is at least some hundreds of thousands of dollars technology, and several months to develop is a real genetic engineering lab. This proves we produce the GH, and the capability to do so should deflate and suspicious to send anything but a proper consistent quality

We guarantee the quality, we can't guarantee the result in any individual test, FFS talk to any doctor concerning almost any drug and see that not in every individual the response is as expected, not in general, and not in a replacement therapy


----------



## glycomann

Buck1973 said:


> I rep for no one so let me say.
> I will tell you from many tests and xperience from testin that AAS use kills my IGF-1 levels, others I know have similar xperiences others do not. If you never heard of this you have now.
> this is not a contrived story but fact....
> I have arm fulls of tests that show this...
> But you guys are correct and I agree with wat is said here that I am new and a outsider and cant b trusted .. with  that I say I hope those continue with there testin and learn how and what affects these tests.
> For a tester to give 1 test and do no follow up or atleast listen to others opinions and xperiences openly without suspect. I myself as a tester would never do. I take it as a responsibility to be certain before postin claims or conclusions based on 1 test.
> I have no doubt that Mr. Cobra had a lower than xpected IGF-1 score does that meen the HGH is fake, underdosed, or of poor quality?
> Thats were its better to have as much info as possible before decidin...



Bullshit, post them up.


----------



## glycomann

sciroxx said:


> You raised some interesting questions GuerillaKilla .
> 
> The Somastim is probably one of the most, if not the most tested GH lately. I posted links, there were deleted, anyhow any one may check on major forums, few tests are from last couple of weeks. Generally with almost EVERY subject, just as you described, there is a great IGF1 ELEVATION, you may write to me privately and I'll send u many links. There are serum tests reportys from beginners, advanced users as well as few pros, I'm talking about known pros, I'll ask permission today to post it here. Having said that we've encountered some cases in which the IGF1 response was lower then expected, in all cases we got to the root of it, and proved the QUALITY of the GH he tested beyond doubt.
> I'm not referring ONLY to Somastim - about 4 weeks ago just as an example a known member tested GENOTROPIN by Prizer he got in Europe with 169 score after using 8 iu a day for months, this is the FIRST link I posted actually. This is certainly not common, but such has happened.
> What makes me really wonder is that I said to Cobra to send the vials to real analysis, and also suggested a serum GH test, and you guys don't even READ what I wrote. I said I GUARANTEE the quality, I said Cobra should send the IGF1 he's just got to AA analysis.
> 
> GuerillaKilla - Why would u go in circles, making claims (and generally speaking I agree with most of your claims) instead of you testing this GH or the IGF1 and draw conclusions ? there is a GREAT effect to the addition of GH and IGF1 to AAS in most of individuals, and we all know it, it's HILARIOUS that we waste so many words on one test on one individual



I have an open mind.  I would be curious to see the links.  Like I stated, the main issue I have is this AAS induced IGF-1 suppression issue.  It is possible I'm wrong or that some long time users are somehow compromised with liver issues.  I have not heard of this ever in 28 years in this. I am a Ph. D biochemist so not just some guy on the ether net here. I do biomedical research for a living. Like I said, at least 4 people I know, most older gentlemen in it nearly as long as me, are happy with the product but I have seen no scanned lab results. As can be expected for any source, there is positive and negative about you out there. Like Reagan said once, trust but verify. If you can convince me through your links that what you have is good quality then I am willing to come around.


----------



## glycomann

Alright, I am seeing some hints that this is possible in severe liver disease or accute damage, which I suggested.

Pediatr Transplant. 1997 Aug;1(1):73-9.
Resistance to growth hormone in children with chronic liver disease.
Bucuvalas JC1, Horn JA, Chernausek SD.
Author information
Abstract

Malnutrition adversely affects mortality and morbidity before and after liver transplantation. Outcome might be improved if liver transplant recipients were in a better nutritional state at the time of transplantation. In this review, we will examine the potential use of GH and IGF-I to improve nutritional status in patients with cirrhosis. Patients with cirrhosis have low circulating IGF-I levels in the face of elevated serum GH concentrations. IGFBP-3 levels are low while IGFBP-1 levels are high. In patients with cirrhosis, IGF-I levels do not increase in response to treatment with GH. Patients with cirrhosis are insensitive to GH, and rhGH treatment is not likely to reverse malnutrition. The pathobiology of GH insentivity may reflect decreased nutritional intake, low GH receptor density, decreased IGF-I half-life and hepatic insensitivity to insulin.

PMID:
    10084790 

Toxicol Ind Health. 2016 Jan;32(1):39-46. doi: 10.1177/0748233713498439. Epub 2013 Aug 1.
Effects of administration of subtoxic doses of acetaminophen on liver and blood levels of insulin-like growth factor-1 in rats.
Ozdemir D1, Aksu I2, Baykara B3, Ates M4, Sisman AR5, Kiray M2, Buyuk A6, Uysal N7.
Author information
Abstract

Acetaminophen (APAP) is widely used in the treatment of pain. Toxic doses of APAP cause acute liver failure, but therapeutic doses are believed to be safe. The purpose of this study is to investigate the effects of administration of subtoxic doses of APAP on liver and blood levels of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) in rats. Low dose (100 mg/kg) and high dose (250 mg/kg) of APAP were intraperitoneally injected into Wistar albino rats. Following administration of therapeutic doses of APAP, there were no significant changes in serum transaminases and liver glutathione levels. Both doses of APAP induced a decrease in liver and blood levels of IGF-1 when compared with the controls. There was no significant difference in liver IGF-1 levels between the high-dose and low-dose APAP groups; however, there was a significant difference in blood IGF-1 levels between both the groups. The histological examination showed that low dose of APAP induced mild degree of structural change, while high dose of APAP induced severe structural damage. In conclusion, these results suggest that blood IGF-1 levels may have a value in predicting hepatic damage resulting from therapeutic doses of APAP.

© The Author(s) 2013.
KEYWORDS:

APAP; IGF-1; apoptosis; glutathione; liver damage


----------



## sciroxx

PMed u Glycomman with some supporting evidence


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> Doc - let me pls try to explain what your "google" search is referred to - in certain phases of evaluating of ANY drug the accumulation and clearance of the product from the serum is tested. The pharmacokinetcis of the drug by evaluation of serum tests is done to learn and trace the "behavious of the drug in the body. In the case of GH (like for instance testosterone) you provide replacement therapy so you asses of course the present and functioning of the drug as a replacement to the endogenous hormone.
> 
> This is NOT a tool to asses the purity, quantity or potency of the drug ! If you like doc I may PM or mail u with full chemical and biological assay done on GH drug by FDA, it doesn't include serum tests. I don't want to confuse the members here with too much info, but in a nutshell a set of chemical assay done by HPLC to evaluate the purity and configuration of the drug (amino acid analysis in this case), and a set of biological assay is ran as well, the in vitro tests check the degree of activation of receptor of the drug when exposing it to the product - this is actually the main criteria of biological assay, as it's practical to do it on any batch, not too complicated or expensive (for my best memory it takes 3-7 days), as as explained before there is a tedious in vivo test done on mice, refer back to my former post.
> 
> So if a vial of lets say a new GH product is examined by the FDA they don't just say ... hey lets take a dozen of subjects and make them serum tests and we know if it's good  what they do is following the set of tests mentioned above. The serum tests may give some indications, and there is a huge statistic range as u may see in any serum evaluation ! but this is not the accurate tool to asses purity or potency !



Please don't trivialize my posts by highlighting the word google. First off, you do not know if I used google or not and second of all, you seem like a bright enough guy to realize google is a SEARCH ENGINE. It provides you links to OTHER WEBSITES such as pubmed, medline, FDA, etc. I've been more than patient with you but I will quickly lose what patience I have if you continue down this path. 

Im well aware of what pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics are. In your haste to try and explain pharmacokinetics, you missed the point of me bringing it up. You stated that serum tests  are never even referred to for drug application or acceptance. Do you realize how foolish of a statement that is? A full pharmacological profile is necessary for EVERY NDA (New Drug Application). 

According to the Boston University School of Medicine, potency can be estimated through biological assays and the precision of the estimate is dependent upon the data set and reference standard used. A quantification estimate from this can be made. Nowhere am I saying that there arent more accurate or reliable methods of testing potency and quantity so don't misread what I'm saying. 

The point you're missing is that HGH is a vastly different drug and approval process than other drugs and the same is said for bio similar or follow on biologics (generic is a misleading term for HGH). I left you a hint in one of my earlier posts about possible reasons why IGF 1 may not be elevated but you either ignored it or failed to pick up on it. This exact issue is one reason serum tests and bio assays to assess biological activity are necessary for biologic drugs. Any slight change in the production process could result in the manufacturer having to do more testing for approval or continued approval. 

You also keep harping on GH serum scores. You do realize that many GH serum tests pick up multiple GH proteins whether they are  Somatropin, Somatrem, 176aa, or Low Purity GH?


----------



## sciroxx

I simply referred to serum tests as chemical or biological assay analytical tool. These are not analytical evaluation tools, not by the FDA nor by any analytical biochemist.

Pls don't take it as an offense, if I was wasn't clear then I hope the last sentence clears it. I didn't try to dispute your quote, just to explain the scientific background for chemical and biological assays. 
Serum tests have their role, I have encouraged any customer to take them, and of course encouraged Cobra to do it, there is simply a wide range of results for them as we discussed, and it's obvious we need a setc of referneces under the same conditions from the same individual to get a clear pictureand their results is giving us an indication, again and again -this is not an analytical tool, this is why after what happened I suggested to make proper HPLC test..

Now what are we arguing on ? u like to test it by a serum test doc ? u like to make a HPLC test ? I'm into any suggestion


----------



## Buck1973

glycomann said:


> Bullshit, post them up.




Yes Sir,
This is 1 series of my tests 
My stack is Mast P, NPP, Tren A 
No exogeneous Testosterone. ( I suspect the Tren But really it is a guess )
Previous to this I have other single tests that were low for some reason while on before I made the connection to the Gear. at that time I also thought it was Bad or underdosed Product. These are just My results as everyone I am sure is individualized.
There is also the Broscience rule of thumb that you should get 1oo points raise in IGF-1 levels per 1 iu of HGH  which I have never got on any HGH Generic or Pharma ( as you can See )....
this also is controversial. I know Guys that have tested right alongside me on same Products and can get close. Keep in mind My age is 53 so I think that plays a huge role in scores person to person...
I have no liver diseases or any other, never orals and In very good condition, no drink no drugs other than AAS.
I added t-3 and t-4 in there somewhere as it was suggested to me that Usage could deplete that and that could possibly lead to lower IGF-1 scores. (It had little or no effect)
I also have tested bein on Much bigger doses to see if there is a ceiling to how much or how high My IGF-1 levels I can produce. I have been up 2  827ng/mL. i think it was on 30 IU's P/D. were as that same guy by comparison can get that on 10iu's P/D..
 On about 4-1  lookin at these continuous declinin results in IGF-1 levels I made the decision that the benefiet to cost of me bein on HGH wasnt worth it so I stopped and then when I came off I went back on the  HGH ( The same HGH which was a variety of a few different brand generic and Pharma ) and still am.

These are some of my IGF-1 tests I also have many HGH Serum tests were I was testin there accuracy and other things. Those do not seem to b effected By gear use but are understandably very crude for quantitative purposes...
I have all results posted on other forums with copys of labs And I understand this is just my word and my conclusions. 
So there is a little history;
All I suggest is I may not b unique and others do have similar results and conclusions....  

Peace


- Generic HGH -
1/30/16 - 299ng/mL 10 days on 5iu's P/D
2/5/16 - 302ng/mL on 16 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
2/12/16 - 240ng/mL on 23 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
2/19/16 - 209ng/mL on HGH 30 Days 5iu's P/D
2/26/16 - 192ng/mL on HGH 37 Days 5iu's
3/5/16 - 189ng/mL on HGH 45 Days 5iu's
3/11/16 - 186ng/mL on HGH 52 Days 5iu's P/D
3/18/16 - 132ng/mL on HGH 58 days 5iu's P/D
3/25/16 - 124ng/mL on HGH 65 days 4iu's P/D
4/1/16 - 143ng/mL on HGH 72 days 4iu's P/D
4/8/16 - 97ng/mL off HGH and T-3 & T 4 - 4/1/16

 This test is On the same products same Kits many months later off that stack 16 Days

8/5/16 - 98ng/mL (Baseline, 16 days off AAS)
8/12/16 - 219ng/mL 7 days on 4iu's P/D
8/20/16 - 235ng/mL 14 days on 4iu's P/D
8/26/16 - 331ng/mL 21 days on 1 week on 5iu's P/D
9/2/16 - 293ng/mL 28 days on HGH 2 weeks On 5iu's P/D
9/9/16 - 298ng/mL 35 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
9/16/16 - 306ng/mL 42 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
9/23/16 - 324ng/mL 49 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
9/30/16 - 293ng/mL 56 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
10/8/16 - 308ng/mL 64 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
10/14/16 - 286ng/mL 72 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 P/D 1 week
10/21/16 - 260ng/mL 79 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 2 weeks
10/29/16 - 352ng/mL 87 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
11/4/16 - 363ng/mL 94 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
11/11/16 - 297ng/mL off all Peps since last test (1 Week) only on 5iu's Serostims 1 week.


----------



## automatondan

sciroxx said:


> I simply referred to serum tests as chemical or biological assay analytical tool. These are not analytical evaluation tools, not by the FDA nor by any analytical biochemist.
> 
> Pls don't take it as an offense, if I was wasn't clear then I hope the last sentence clears it. I didn't try to dispute your quote, just to explain the scientific background for chemical and biological assays.
> Serum tests have their role, I have encouraged any customer to take them, and of course encouraged Cobra to do it, there is simply a wide range of results for them as we discussed, and it's obvious we need a setc of referneces under the same conditions from the same individual to get a clear pictureand their results is giving us an indication, again and again -this is not an analytical tool, this is why after what happened I suggested to make proper HPLC test..
> 
> Now what are we arguing on ? u like to test it by a serum test doc ? u like to make a HPLC test ? I'm into any suggestion



Dude, you cant just say "Pls dont take it as an offense" when you make an arrogant, and disrespectful statement... It doesn't work like that. You dont get to be rude and offensive and then just tell people they shouldn't take it that way... Especially when the statement made was clearly offensive and intended to diminish Doc's statements. Now, im not worried about you hurting Doc's delicate feelings; he's a big boy, but I do have a problem with people being disrespectful and then not owning up to it properly and apologizing. Please keep it respectful.


----------



## automatondan

Btw, why dont we have Cobra just run some GH that HE KNOWS is legit and post up his numbers? That ought to end this discussion pretty quickly....


----------



## sciroxx

First you may and should take any test and learn from it, further tests from Cobra, or as I suggested more tests from more members, cause after all the discussion here is not Cobra but to asses GH quality, I still post and post that we should make more tests by more members, and make HPLC analysis, I PM members and u all stuck in the same place... 

And I didn't offend Doc, and u don't have to defend him, he made some posts which are have some obvious value but are irrelevant to FDA analytical evaluation and I tried to explain it, why the F one may take it as an offence I have no clue ?! but I had no prob to apologize.

Now automatonDan - would u like to test it ? I'm into helping u, u may learn for yourself and testify


----------



## automatondan

sciroxx said:


> First you may and should take any test and learn from it, further tests from Cobra, or as I suggested more tests from more members, cause after all the discussion here is not Cobra but to asses GH quality, I still post and post that we should make more tests by more members, and make HPLC analysis, I PM members and u all stuck in the same place...
> 
> And I didn't offend Doc, and u don't have to defend him, he made some posts which are have some obvious value but are irrelevant to FDA analytical evaluation and I tried to explain it, why the F one may take it as an offence I have no clue ?! but I had no prob to apologize.
> 
> Now automatonDan - would u like to test it ? I'm into helping u, u may learn for yourself and testify



You are still not getting it man. Its not the data you offered that was offensive... No factual data is offensive... offering scientific data is welcomed here. Its how you talked to Doc that was disrespectful, attempting to poo-poo his post by asserting that he "googles" his finding.... He may not have been offended, but he certainly saw your post as a little disrespectful, and rightfully so... 
An apology is not saying "please dont take offense" after saying something offensive; a true apology is admitting to fault of the disrespect in your comment. I just want us to remain scientific and polite. Please treat our members (who have been more than respectful to you) with due respect in return.

As for me testing your product, thanks, but no thanks.


----------



## glycomann

Buck1973 said:


> Yes Sir,
> This is 1 series of my tests
> My stack is Mast P, NPP, Tren A
> No exogeneous Testosterone. ( I suspect the Tren But really it is a guess )
> Previous to this I have other single tests that were low for some reason while on before I made the connection to the Gear. at that time I also thought it was Bad or underdosed Product. These are just My results as everyone I am sure is individualized.
> There is also the Broscience rule of thumb that you should get 1oo points raise in IGF-1 levels per 1 iu of HGH  which I have never got on any HGH Generic or Pharma ( as you can See )....
> this also is controversial. I know Guys that have tested right alongside me on same Products and can get close. Keep in mind My age is 53 so I think that plays a huge role in scores person to person...
> I have no liver diseases or any other, never orals and In very good condition, no drink no drugs other than AAS.
> I added t-3 and t-4 in there somewhere as it was suggested to me that Usage could deplete that and that could possibly lead to lower IGF-1 scores. (It had little or no effect)
> I also have tested bein on Much bigger doses to see if there is a ceiling to how much or how high My IGF-1 levels I can produce. I have been up 2  827ng/mL. i think it was on 30 IU's P/D. were as that same guy by comparison can get that on 10iu's P/D..
> On about 4-1  lookin at these continuous declinin results in IGF-1 levels I made the decision that the benefiet to cost of me bein on HGH wasnt worth it so I stopped and then when I came off I went back on the  HGH ( The same HGH which was a variety of a few different brand generic and Pharma ) and still am.
> 
> These are some of my IGF-1 tests I also have many HGH Serum tests were I was testin there accuracy and other things. Those do not seem to b effected By gear use but are understandably very crude for quantitative purposes...
> I have all results posted on other forums with copys of labs And I understand this is just my word and my conclusions.
> So there is a little history;
> All I suggest is I may not b unique and others do have similar results and conclusions....
> 
> Peace
> 
> 
> - Generic HGH -
> 1/30/16 - 299ng/mL 10 days on 5iu's P/D
> 2/5/16 - 302ng/mL on 16 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
> 2/12/16 - 240ng/mL on 23 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
> 2/19/16 - 209ng/mL on HGH 30 Days 5iu's P/D
> 2/26/16 - 192ng/mL on HGH 37 Days 5iu's
> 3/5/16 - 189ng/mL on HGH 45 Days 5iu's
> 3/11/16 - 186ng/mL on HGH 52 Days 5iu's P/D
> 3/18/16 - 132ng/mL on HGH 58 days 5iu's P/D
> 3/25/16 - 124ng/mL on HGH 65 days 4iu's P/D
> 4/1/16 - 143ng/mL on HGH 72 days 4iu's P/D
> 4/8/16 - 97ng/mL off HGH and T-3 & T 4 - 4/1/16
> 
> This test is On the same products same Kits many months later off that stack 16 Days
> 
> 8/5/16 - 98ng/mL (Baseline, 16 days off AAS)
> 8/12/16 - 219ng/mL 7 days on 4iu's P/D
> 8/20/16 - 235ng/mL 14 days on 4iu's P/D
> 8/26/16 - 331ng/mL 21 days on 1 week on 5iu's P/D
> 9/2/16 - 293ng/mL 28 days on HGH 2 weeks On 5iu's P/D
> 9/9/16 - 298ng/mL 35 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/16/16 - 306ng/mL 42 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/23/16 - 324ng/mL 49 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/30/16 - 293ng/mL 56 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 10/8/16 - 308ng/mL 64 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 10/14/16 - 286ng/mL 72 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 P/D 1 week
> 10/21/16 - 260ng/mL 79 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 2 weeks
> 10/29/16 - 352ng/mL 87 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
> 11/4/16 - 363ng/mL 94 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
> 11/11/16 - 297ng/mL off all Peps since last test (1 Week) only on 5iu's Serostims 1 week.



Odd,  I believe it. Might want to get some detailed blood work next time your on cycle.  Could be that you have an underlying hepatic issue. Not trying to be a dick here.  just be on the look out.  Most times I have seen results the numbers go up.  As I'm sure you know, GH stimulates the liver to secrete IGF-1 and it's binding proteins and other somatomedins in respnse to GH (somatotropin) If you values are going down over time when they should be going up and you are in a somewhat toxic state because of other substances you are probably going to want to know about it so you can adjust.


----------



## glycomann

Scroxx (Karl I'm guessing) sent me a ton of links.  I have seen probably 25 posted test results from the Somastin product dating from pretty much days ago to about ~6 months back.  All are good results.  Looks to me like his stuff is very good.  Sorry for jumping off the handle.


----------



## Buck1973

automatonDan said:


> Btw, why dont we have Cobra just run some GH that HE KNOWS is legit and post up his numbers? That ought to end this discussion pretty quickly....



Xactly what I have done.
I hope to see Mr. Cobra continue with his testin....




glycomann said:


> Odd,  I believe it. Might want to get some detailed blood work next time your on cycle.  Could be that you have an underlying hepatic issue. Not trying to be a dick here.  just be on the look out.  Most times I have seen results the numbers go up.  As I'm sure you know, GH stimulates the liver to secrete IGF-1 and it's binding proteins and other somatomedins in response to GH (somatotropin) If you values are going down over time when they should be going up and you are in a somewhat toxic state because of other substances you are probably going to want to know about it so you can adjust.



As we Know AAS could put us in a Toxic state. this would make some sense and possibly xplain why the Liver would be more or less efficient in producing IGF-1. Now could it be a particular substance, or a compound or additive only in some Black market products? I have not a clue.
I gave my Stack of short ester products, It seems the faster they leave the faster IGF-1 levels recover.
I did blds everytime which is; CBC/dif plates, CMP, Test Serum, LH, FSH, E-2, and a IGF-1. Nothing Out of the ordinary for a User.
My Dr. ordered; GGT, DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE, ANDROSTENEDIONE, PREGNENOLONE DHEA- Sulfate, IRON AND TIBC, ANA, DIRECT, REFLEX TO 9 ENAS, CREATINE KINASE (CK) (NOT CREATININE), ANTI-SMOOTH MUSCLE/MITOCHOND, FERRITIN, and some others, even US on the liver and Kidneys.

Most times I see others Levels go up as well.
All I ever said here was to Know How you test and the limits of these tests. I have made this mistake and have seen others as well.
I dont believe this is a foolproof way to test HGH. I am not sayin this happens in everyone but there is a % or at certain times. which for me is when I am on, My IGF-1 levels crash. when I come off levels go back up. Now Does this pertain to Mr. Cobra I never said that and have no clue. Hopefully he does more testin to show
  All tests have there flaws. including analytical testin, best to Know what they are and how the individual reacts.
Mr. Karl and every other Supplier of HGH has been accused of bad HGH on occasion based on this test.
Again I am not sayin this is everyone all the time, only the more we test the more we learn about such tests and how we can and cannot use them....

Those results that I posted I did not reveal the HGH maker i was on B/C i didnt want members to make wrong conclusions.
 There were several i switched HGH about every 2 weeks and then the same when I came off which included Pharma's. I basically cleaned out my refrigerator of Products I HGH Serum tested. Which kept me from possibly having 1 bad product.





Peace


----------



## DocDePanda187123

sciroxx said:


> I simply referred to serum tests as chemical or biological assay analytical tool. These are not analytical evaluation tools, not by the FDA nor by any analytical biochemist.
> 
> Pls don't take it as an offense, if I was wasn't clear then I hope the last sentence clears it. I didn't try to dispute your quote, just to explain the scientific background for chemical and biological assays.
> Serum tests have their role, I have encouraged any customer to take them, and of course encouraged Cobra to do it, there is simply a wide range of results for them as we discussed, and it's obvious we need a setc of referneces under the same conditions from the same individual to get a clear pictureand their results is giving us an indication, again and again -this is not an analytical tool, this is why after what happened I suggested to make proper HPLC test..
> 
> Now what are we arguing on ? u like to test it by a serum test doc ? u like to make a HPLC test ? I'm into any suggestion



I understand the roles of analytical and in vivo testing. 

I believe that biologics, bc of the difficulty in production, potential risks involved, etc, should be tested both biologically and analytically. I'm not sure most understand what the risks are of getting bad GH....and I'm not talking about the loss of time and money.


----------



## sciroxx

You're very right Doc, there are great potential risks involved here, and this is why proper measures should be taken.

Main concern is getting a GH product that contains 191 amino acids GH which is identical to the endogenous GH and not 192 Amino acids GH. Let me give a brief review -

- First a piturity origin GH was used, meaning the piturity of dead corps was extracted to get GH out of it, and this GH was injected to patients. All of this was cool (though this process was quite expensive) till more then few patient were infected with retro viruses, these deadly viruses couldn't be detected in place while extracting the GH, so the usage is such GH was stopped.

- Genetic engineering came to help, the GH was implanted in E. coli bacteria's DNA, and then the GH was harvested and xtracted from the bacteria. Just one very important detail here - when the E. coli bacteria synthesize any protein in its nucleus it always ends the protein chain with the amino acid methionine. So if you implant the GH molecule which contains 191 amino acids the bacteria will end the protein with an extra amino acid - methionine, so we get actually 192 amino acids protein (AKA 192 AA GH). 
First it was all good, but then in an extensive work with patient it was realized that many patient develop anti bodies to the GH molecule of 192 aminos, after all this is a  normal reaction of the immune system - it doesn't recognize the 192 amino acids as an endogenous natual protein. The anti bodies prevents from the GH to work, and actually attacks and deactivate the 191 aminos GH as well. So this production was stopped till a method to "cut" the tail-ended methionine was developed. This process costs much money and requires certain technology, so many suppliers still offer the 192 aminos GH as it's much cheaper and still working the same, at least for the short run (!!!).


----------



## gymrat827

Buck1973 said:


> Yes Sir,
> This is 1 series of my tests
> My stack is Mast P, NPP, Tren A
> No exogeneous Testosterone. ( I suspect the Tren But really it is a guess )
> Previous to this I have other single tests that were low for some reason while on before I made the connection to the Gear. at that time I also thought it was Bad or underdosed Product. These are just My results as everyone I am sure is individualized.
> There is also the Broscience rule of thumb that you should get 1oo points raise in IGF-1 levels per 1 iu of HGH  which I have never got on any HGH Generic or Pharma ( as you can See )....
> this also is controversial. I know Guys that have tested right alongside me on same Products and can get close. Keep in mind My age is 53 so I think that plays a huge role in scores person to person...
> I have no liver diseases or any other, never orals and In very good condition, no drink no drugs other than AAS.
> I added t-3 and t-4 in there somewhere as it was suggested to me that Usage could deplete that and that could possibly lead to lower IGF-1 scores. (It had little or no effect)
> I also have tested bein on Much bigger doses to see if there is a ceiling to how much or how high My IGF-1 levels I can produce. I have been up 2  827ng/mL. i think it was on 30 IU's P/D. were as that same guy by comparison can get that on 10iu's P/D..
> On about 4-1  lookin at these continuous declinin results in IGF-1 levels I made the decision that the benefiet to cost of me bein on HGH wasnt worth it so I stopped and then when I came off I went back on the  HGH ( The same HGH which was a variety of a few different brand generic and Pharma ) and still am.
> 
> These are some of my IGF-1 tests I also have many HGH Serum tests were I was testin there accuracy and other things. Those do not seem to b effected By gear use but are understandably very crude for quantitative purposes...
> I have all results posted on other forums with copys of labs And I understand this is just my word and my conclusions.
> So there is a little history;
> All I suggest is I may not b unique and others do have similar results and conclusions....
> 
> Peace
> 
> 
> - Generic HGH -
> 1/30/16 - 299ng/mL 10 days on 5iu's P/D
> 2/5/16 - 302ng/mL on 16 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
> 2/12/16 - 240ng/mL on 23 days 5iu's P/D + Started AAS 1/30/16 -Tren A, Mast P, NPP.
> 2/19/16 - 209ng/mL on HGH 30 Days 5iu's P/D
> 2/26/16 - 192ng/mL on HGH 37 Days 5iu's
> 3/5/16 - 189ng/mL on HGH 45 Days 5iu's
> 3/11/16 - 186ng/mL on HGH 52 Days 5iu's P/D
> 3/18/16 - 132ng/mL on HGH 58 days 5iu's P/D
> 3/25/16 - 124ng/mL on HGH 65 days 4iu's P/D
> 4/1/16 - 143ng/mL on HGH 72 days 4iu's P/D
> 4/8/16 - 97ng/mL off HGH and T-3 & T 4 - 4/1/16
> 
> This test is On the same products same Kits many months later off that stack 16 Days
> 
> 8/5/16 - 98ng/mL (Baseline, 16 days off AAS)
> 8/12/16 - 219ng/mL 7 days on 4iu's P/D
> 8/20/16 - 235ng/mL 14 days on 4iu's P/D
> 8/26/16 - 331ng/mL 21 days on 1 week on 5iu's P/D
> 9/2/16 - 293ng/mL 28 days on HGH 2 weeks On 5iu's P/D
> 9/9/16 - 298ng/mL 35 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/16/16 - 306ng/mL 42 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/23/16 - 324ng/mL 49 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 9/30/16 - 293ng/mL 56 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 10/8/16 - 308ng/mL 64 days on HGH 5iu's P/D
> 10/14/16 - 286ng/mL 72 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 P/D 1 week
> 10/21/16 - 260ng/mL 79 days on HGH 5iu's P/D + 100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 2 weeks
> 10/29/16 - 352ng/mL 87 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
> 11/4/16 - 363ng/mL 94 days on HGH 5iu's P/D +100Mics. IGF-1 Lr3 + 2 Migs cjc1295 w/dac P/D, 300 Mics GHRP 6 2X P/D, and 25 Mgs. MK-677 2 X P/D.
> 11/11/16 - 297ng/mL off all Peps since last test (1 Week) only on 5iu's Serostims 1 week.



Your 53 and running cycles without tes.....????

Why?   Why put your body threw that.


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## Buck1973

gymrat827 said:


> Your 53 and running cycles without tes.....????
> 
> Why?   Why put your body threw that.



I test alot of stuff and dont believe much bro science.
 I started by tryin a TRT amount of test and my stack.
 this was ok  soi did less and less test on the therory that let the other compounds do the work and keep things to a min.
I have NO downside in my cycles without testosterone that I am aware 
What would you think this puts a body through?????
I am startin ON  now and will do Just T  for the first few weeks then I will decide were to go....
I have nt used any T in about 3 years....


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## glycomann

Buck1973 said:


> I test alot of stuff and dont believe much bro science.
> I started by tryin a TRT amount of test and my stack.
> this was ok  soi did less and less test on the therory that let the other compounds do the work and keep things to a min.
> I have NO downside in my cycles without testosterone that I am aware
> What would you think this puts a body through?????
> I am startin ON  now and will do Just T  for the first few weeks then I will decide were to go....
> I have nt used any T in about 3 years....



I don't use a lot of Test either anymore. NOly when on TRT and when BF is very low. Otherwise estrogen conversion is an isue which happens more as we age.


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## Savannabob

New to site & still doing my home work.

is this the site for sciroxx,  sciroxxonline.com ?


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## BigGameHunter

Savannabob said:


> New to site & still doing my home work.
> 
> is this the site for sciroxx,  sciroxxonline.com ?



...............no


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## Fsuphisig

Is this dead, was a cool thread


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## gh0st

lets bring it back! CS runs some killer cycles. would kill a horse. LITERALLY!


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## GuerillaKilla

Cobrastrike is a giant stinky undulating pussy!

I'm always down for CS threads.


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## Buck1973

I wonder if Mr. CS has any of those Somas left 
It might b intrestin to lab test themmmm....


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## Cobra Strike

for the last time I ran it to the last vial and tested to give it the best possible chance. I do not have any somastins left.

I'm done with scrioxxs stuff and testing it more. I don't care about getting a lab to test it, I dont care about any other tests that have been done by other internet users or any results posted on eroids.I dont care about a serum test when an Igf test reigns over all others. I dont care that scrioxx is trying to protect his brand and rep because anyone would. I spent 2 months of my time on somastin taking it religiously just like everything else in my daily life, I spent my own personal money on the somastin and the testing, and all I care about are my results. It does not matter to me whether anyone else believes my results or not. I believe my results. Seeing a review and results from others means absolutely nothing to me. So many times in the past I've seen bad ass results posted and buy it to find out it's junk. I've spent tens of thousands on gh. I've had good gh, great gh, and alot of crap suppose to be gh. My personal gh experiences bring me to one single conclusion which is this:

Always buy just enough to test the gh myself. If it's good buy more but realize by the time I buy more it will most likely be a new batch and would most likely require testing again. If it's bad then move on. Never believe any reviews I see on gh from any guys I don't fully trust.


 Eroids is a fkn joke and a scam to direct newbs and idiots to crap products in order to relieve them of their hard earned money and take advantage of a guy that doesn't have a solid connection. Reviews on that site hold no worth with me. 

Just for the record I am in no way trying to take scrioxx down. I did what I did to find out what I found out. My goal has been reached. I had no reason to post anymore on the thread as I am done with the test...and I can't quite hang with docs level of knowledge.


ps...running a cycle with with test is not bro science, (cant even believe that was said). It's basic endocrinology. It's rule. Maybe one guy in a million can do it with no issues which would make him the exception. Any hormone injected or injested will hault/diminish natural hormone production in the body...for everyone. Why even experiment with this is beyond me. Experimenting doesn't make you cool cool or smarter, it makes you reckless, this I know from my own personal idiotic experiments. There are no experiments left with aas that have not been previosly attempted by someone already. Read and research and you can find the results out of any experiment your thinking about doing. It will save you time, money, and negative health effects. An experiment running a cycle with no test is an experiment in doing something that is opposite of maximizing potential. Why run an experiment that has been ran a million times before by hoards of newbs who inadvertently proven it has a negative outcome.


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## sciroxx

It's very convenient to say that you have no vials left ?! I did offer to send more, just as a reminder I was the one who encouraged you to test from first place. The Somastim was perfectly tested numerous times, this is very peculiar that you've been the only one to get and report like u did, and it's even more strange as in oppose to most tests, which were random, I knew in advance that you would test it. I also asked you to send the copy of the testing to me with former tests which u ignored like the rest of my mails, but of course it's your call, I'm here to serve u, not the opposite, and I'm cool with any honest customer, always.
I just wonder, you've just got from me 2 kits of IGF1-DES free of charge, so far u got 6 free IGF1 kits, can send these for testing if no GH is left ?


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## sciroxx

Simple google search shows that this forum is a place on which most sources are heavily bashed. It's cool and I'm staying around, the burden of proof is on me - I said along the thread and I say again - anyone who likes to test and report honestly, like Cobra did, is welcome to contact me, I'll cover the costs of testing and help with all that I can, I will cooeprate also with any suggestion for testing  (one vial, 10 kits, IGF1 or GH serum, HPLC or any method), I'm very confident with the quality of any vial we have and will supply


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## DreamChaser

I'm back ......


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## gymrat827

sciroxx said:


> It's very convenient to say that you have no vials left ?! I did offer to send more, just as a reminder I was the one who encouraged you to test from first place. The Somastim was perfectly tested numerous times, this is very peculiar that you've been the only one to get and report like u did, and it's even more strange as in oppose to most tests, which were random, I knew in advance that you would test it. I also asked you to send the copy of the testing to me with former tests which u ignored like the rest of my mails, but of course it's your call, I'm here to serve u, not the opposite, and I'm cool with any honest customer, always.
> I just wonder, you've just got from me 2 kits of IGF1-DES free of charge, so far u got 6 free IGF1 kits, can send these for testing if no GH is left ?





sciroxx said:


> Simple google search shows that this forum is a place on which most sources are heavily bashed. It's cool and I'm staying around, the burden of proof is on me - I said along the thread and I say again - anyone who likes to test and report honestly, like Cobra did, is welcome to contact me, I'll cover the costs of testing and help with all that I can, I will cooeprate also with any suggestion for testing  (one vial, 10 kits, IGF1 or GH serum, HPLC or any method), I'm very confident with the quality of any vial we have and will supply



dude enough.  this is done with


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## Bro Bundy

sciroxx said:


> Simple google search shows that this forum is a place on which most sources are heavily bashed. It's cool and I'm staying around, the burden of proof is on me - I said along the thread and I say again - anyone who likes to test and report honestly, like Cobra did, is welcome to contact me, I'll cover the costs of testing and help with all that I can, I will cooeprate also with any suggestion for testing  (one vial, 10 kits, IGF1 or GH serum, HPLC or any method), I'm very confident with the quality of any vial we have and will supply



you got alot of balls......alot of balls...your product tested to be shit..what dont u or your cronies not understanding


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## sciroxx

I can't be more productive then offering anyone one here to test and report, and I emphasize this. I'm responsible to any vial which has arrived from us, and I will keep this commitment, quality won't lie for long on a honest place


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## Buck1973

So all here Know....
 we on another Forum will b doin lab analysis on Sciroxx Somastims Again, along with several other HGH samples .
The sample will not be collected from Karl.  It will come from 1 or more of his customers.
 I am sure he would be happy to put these results up against any Blood test, (IGF-1 or HGH Serum test) for comparison....


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## ECKSRATED

Buck1973 said:


> So all here Know....
> we on another Forum will b doin lab analysis on Sciroxx Somastims Again, along with several other HGH samples .
> The sample will not be collected from Karl.  It will come from 1 or more of his customers.
> I am sure he would be happy to put these results up against any Blood test, (IGF-1 or HGH Serum test) for comparison....



Still doesn't change the fact that cobra got bunk shit. 

Could have been a shitty batch, stars weren't aligned right or whatever but it was bunk. Plain and simple.


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## Buck1973

Yes Sir  
That is correct 
Could also meen that other things can affect the IGF-1 test that was done and that we talked about and was proven.
I was hoping he had a sample left and I would have asked for it to Lab test it.
And as I said before I been down this road before, and the only reason I came here was NOT to defend Mr. Karl or his product. 
But to Share My xperiences as a tester Like I said being down this road before.

If ya  wanna call it  bunk do that,  But be sure of the test methods and their flaws and what affects them , 

They could b Bunk...


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## Staley40

How are his aas injectables?


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## gh0st

His HGH has been testing out great on IGF tests and gh serum scores! 
Im in NO WAY calling Cobra a liar or doubting his results....as i have much respect for this man! And consider him a good friend!

Just saying that it has tested very well recently on other forums...like Buck said , perhaps it could of been a bunk batch or some other fators! Just thought i would chime in as I...I'm ordering an HGH kit for myself to test along with some of the Somedin IGF DES! 

Getting a baseline IGF test score done after the new year as i have put all other hgh and gh sups/IGF on hold for the last two weeks! NO mk677 , igf or HGH! Trying to get this tested accurately!

Not sure if i should start a new thread here on about this or cont on here in this thread? Anyone have a suggestion?
thanks

gh0st


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## gh0st

gymrat827 said:


> dude enough.  this is done with



I agree! Sorry as i should of went and read all the previous pages before posting! I dont know how i missed the last page....i honestly was going by what was sent to me in my email weekly update...which didn't include the most recent posts(the final page) for some odd reason! IT happens sometimes...i just received it which made me feel like an idiot.



Cobra Strike said:


> for the last time I ran it to the last vial and tested to give it the best possible chance. I do not have any somastins left.
> 
> I'm done with scrioxxs stuff and testing it more. I don't care about getting a lab to test it, I dont care about any other tests that have been done by other internet users or any results posted on eroids.I dont care about a serum test when an Igf test reigns over all others. I dont care that scrioxx is trying to protect his brand and rep because anyone would. I spent 2 months of my time on somastin taking it religiously just like everything else in my daily life, I spent my own personal money on the somastin and the testing, and all I care about are my results. It does not matter to me whether anyone else believes my results or not. I believe my results. Seeing a review and results from others means absolutely nothing to me. So many times in the past I've seen bad ass results posted and buy it to find out it's junk. I've spent tens of thousands on gh. I've had good gh, great gh, and alot of crap suppose to be gh. My personal gh experiences bring me to one single conclusion which is this:
> 
> Always buy just enough to test the gh myself. If it's good buy more but realize by the time I buy more it will most likely be a new batch and would most likely require testing again. If it's bad then move on. Never believe any reviews I see on gh from any guys I don't fully trust.
> 
> 
> Eroids is a fkn joke and a scam to direct newbs and idiots to crap products in order to relieve them of their hard earned money and take advantage of a guy that doesn't have a solid connection. Reviews on that site hold no worth with me.
> 
> Just for the record I am in no way trying to take scrioxx down. I did what I did to find out what I found out. My goal has been reached. I had no reason to post anymore on the thread as I am done with the test...and I can't quite hang with docs level of knowledge.
> 
> 
> ps...running a cycle with with test is not bro science, (cant even believe that was said). It's basic endocrinology. It's rule. Maybe one guy in a million can do it with no issues which would make him the exception. Any hormone injected or injested will hault/diminish natural hormone production in the body...for everyone. Why even experiment with this is beyond me. Experimenting doesn't make you cool cool or smarter, it makes you reckless, this I know from my own personal idiotic experiments. There are no experiments left with aas that have not been previosly attempted by someone already. Read and research and you can find the results out of any experiment your thinking about doing. It will save you time, money, and negative health effects. An experiment running a cycle with no test is an experiment in doing something that is opposite of maximizing potential. Why run an experiment that has been ran a million times before by hoards of newbs who inadvertently proven it has a negative outcome.



I agree i cant stand eroids
I in no way am doubting you CS as i know you are as solid as they come in this world! And i know your intentions with this thread were not malicious! not your style! 
I am planning on testing the DES soon, for anyone intersted ill start a seperate thread!

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience brother!

respect
gh0st


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## gh0st

Guys i got a few PMs about these guys. Please dont pm me....i said my thought on them here... not going to get any dif from pming me! FRom what i know these guys are strict about souce checking! AAS i thought were g2g...slight pip from a few of my buddies who tried them. thats all i got for use!

thanks

gh0st


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## rep100

if I'm not mistaken sciroxx was submitted to that anabolic.com lab and theres was under dosed if I am not mistaken


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## gh0st

well i'd ask u for the link if u were not banned , but im sure ill take a look as , i said before MY exp with there IGF lr3/DES and some of tthere oils and tabs was good. ID use them again and may very soon because i want to try primo ace injectable and not many i have used carry it. i know of one guy on another board but he just ran out and only brews limited supply and the other brews it on the same board but never used them and they dont brew just primo ace. its always a mix


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## ItzBlitz

hook ups bro?


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## DocDePanda187123

ItzBlitz said:


> hook ups bro?



This is not the forum for that kind of shit. You want to be scammed out of your money that's your call but read our rules first.


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## Buck1973

At  about the time this  thread was goin  and  acusation were bein  made. lab  testin was bein  done  on  many HGH  products  the  Sciroxx somastims was one  and  for a   update  .
  they  tested  very  welll   no  shortage of  product or  purity


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## tattoo

how to send a private message? I have a question for you cobra strike


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## Leatherhead

Sciroxx is a scam! Karl screwed me out of $700 worth of gear. Avoid that place like the plague. Been since January, and my money is gone, he stopped emailing me, and still don't have my gear. Just trying to give you my personal experience and warning.


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## mugzy

Leatherhead said:


> Sciroxx is a scam! Karl screwed me out of $700 worth of gear. Avoid that place like the plague. Been since January, and my money is gone, he stopped emailing me, and still don't have my gear. Just trying to give you my personal experience and warning.



Amazing Sciroxx is even still around...


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## Leatherhead

admin said:


> Amazing Sciroxx is even still around...


Well from what I understand, Karl just sold the company off, so he doesn't give a damn about any of the orders or customers anymore. He screwed people over then passed the torch and walked away.


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## MrRippedZilla

admin said:


> Amazing Sciroxx is even still around...


Officially the end of the road: https://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3737064,00.html

Translated:
_"Former Mr. Israel and another man were arrested on suspicion of running a network for the production and smuggling of steroids
The police and tax authorities arrested the two suspects overnight following an investigation conducted on the basis of information obtained from the US Drug Enforcement Authority. The main suspect is Elad Ferman, who was previously known as "Mr. Israel"

The Tax and Police Authority arrested two suspects on suspicion of running an international network of production, distribution and smuggling of anabolic steroids (hormones that promote muscle and bone development) and counterfeit drugs worldwide. Eyal Cohen, the Rishon Lezion Magistrate's Court, extended their remand by eight days after the investigation team requested that the detention be extended by 10 days.

The investigation was opened, among other things, following information received by the Israeli authorities from the DEA, the US Drug Enforcement Authority. In addition to the two detainees, another suspect is being interrogated in the offices of the Tax Unit of the Tax Authority. Further arrests are expected.

The main suspect in the affair is Elad Ferman, who specializes in bodybuilding and was previously crowned "Mr. Israel". According to the arrest request, Ferman heads the illegal activity of marketing anabolic steroids through a Web site, with the target audience being customers from abroad, mainly from the US Another suspect in the case, Lior Harush Shapira, is also suspected of serving as one of the chain's leaders.

For the purpose of their criminal activity, the suspects used false names and / or straw people. According to Ferman, represented by attorney Ronen Rosenblum, Shapira, represented by attorney Kobi Ben Shaya, marketing the steroid under the brand SCIROXX, when the products are smuggled from Israel in a false statement under the guise of cosmetics by EMS mail Fast) and under pseudonyms. The money from overseas sales came to Israel on the names of straw men, by courier, Western Union and Manny Gram, and the names of straw men, raw materials for the manufacture of steroids, were smuggled into Israel, falsely stating the contents of the packages.

The findings of the investigation point to extensive illegal business activity conducted by the suspects, which does not report to the tax authorities. There is also suspicion of serious offenses against the Income Tax Ordinance, the VAT Law, the Customs Ordinance, the Prohibition of Money Laundering Law and the Penal Law - Life Risk.

During the searches at Fermann's manufacturing plant, illegal substances were seized and tens of thousands of pills were tested for anabolic steroids. In Fermann's home, luxury vehicles were estimated at hundreds of thousands of shekels each, as well as equipment that ties him to suspicions. 

The hidden investigation, which lasted about a year, is managed by the Diamond Unit in cooperation with the Customs and VAT Investigations Department in Jerusalem, the Jerusalem Police Station, the Money Laundering Prohibition Authority, the Intelligence Unit of the Israel Tax Authority and the Foreign Operations Coordination Unit of the Israel Police."_


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## Jin

Rest In Peace.


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## TODAY

At least we have this timeless thread to remember them by


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## gunslinger357

I'm surprised Sciroxx was even legit at all.


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## simplesteve

Weird on the left hand bar it said that the last post was made today at 2:33, but on here it has it from August.


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## Spongy

simplesteve said:


> Weird on the left hand bar it said that the last post was made today at 2:33, but on here it has it from August.



This thread is pulling in google traffic so it was manually bumped because there is interest in this subject.


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## datum

Sciroxx has been around for a long time. They have mixed reviews over the years and usually advertise openly. They have had a few bad reps overtime that also give them a bad rep.


----------

