# Help with first cycle



## No1uknw (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm not starting this for a while but I'm slowly acquiring everything I need for this cycle. I'm 40yrs old 208lbs and plan on dropping to 185-190lbs before I start anything (maybe Start cycle in April). Lift 3 days a week and cardio 3 days a week currently. 

Week 1-4: 100mg Test P eod, 300mg Test E x2 , 12.5mg Exemestane eod * 

Week 1-6: 50mg Dbol ed, split x4 * 

Week 5-16: 300mg Test E x2, 12.5mg Exemestane eod, 250ui hcg x2 * 

Week 17-20: 100mg Test P eod, 12.5mg Exemestane eod, 250iu hcg x2 * 

Week 21: 250iu hcg eod, 12.5mg Exemestane eod

Week 22 : 500iu hcg eod, 12.5mg Exemestane eod

Week 23-26 : 40 / 40 / 20 / 20 Nolva, 100 / 100 / 50 / 50 Clomid


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jan 11, 2014)

bad cycle idea for a first time user.You want your first cycle to be as simple as possible....test c or e 12 -14 weeks


----------



## RedLang (Jan 12, 2014)

Id say dont bother with a Test p kickstart. Dbol itself will be fine until your test e levels rise.
A few people like doing a test p taper at the end, but mate for your first one don't stress over that. It doesn't make a real big difference. That way its nice and simple.

The hcg at the end of 500iu eod might be excessive imo as well. 250 iu will still be enough to support test production after a basic cycle like this. But see what others think.

What are your goals, and all your stats mate?


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 12, 2014)

As everyone has said that's too complicated a cycle to be a first cycle. Pick a single ester, enanthate or cypionaye are the common 2, and pin twice weekly for 12-16wks. Run HCG and AI during the cycle (aromasin will more than likely be required to be taken daily not EOD), and run your PCT after the ester has cleared (14-18days for E and Cyp). No need for clomid at 100mg, you can run it 50/50/25/25 or 50/25/25/25. Get blood work done a few weeks before, during (around 6-8wks in), and after the cycle (8wks after finishing PCT).


----------



## Stevethedream (Jan 12, 2014)

Yea bro I agree with brother bundy and would definitely start with test E only. I also agree with redlang about the dbol being the only kickstarter you should need. I ran my first cycle of test E 500mg and dbol at 50mg split into two and had GREAT results. I set pr's for every lift and also put on around 33lb during a 12 wk run on test and 5 wks on dbol. I think that's a great idea too that ur gonna lean down a bit b4 u start.


----------



## No1uknw (Jan 12, 2014)

Thanks guys there is such a slew of information out there and some logic behind a lot of it. I was sorta trying to maximize things from the start and at the end as it takes a while for blood levels to stablize and really start seeing the benefits.


----------



## Bro Bundy (Jan 12, 2014)

No1uknw said:


> Thanks guys there is such a slew of information out there and some logic behind a lot of it. I was sorta trying to maximize things from the start and at the end as it takes a while for blood levels to stablize and really start seeing the benefits.



all that blood levels shit is bullshit...you pin hit the gym and eat like a animal..forget about feeling things and being stable..pin and bust ass


----------



## Cyborg (Jan 12, 2014)

As everyone said already, test e/cyp pinned twice a week with a 4 week or so dbol kick start will have you feeling great. Definitely  have the ancillaries though. No need for so much complexity. Sometimes simple is better.


----------



## Rumpy (Jan 12, 2014)

Yup. pretty much going to agree with everyone here.  The standard boiler plate first cycle is 500/week for 12 weeks.  personally, I think that's a little too conservative.  I would consider 600/week for 16 weeks.  Whatever you decide, I recommend ordering more gear than you think you need.  I think we have all ended up deciding to bumping our levels or running a little longer, so it's always good to have more on hand.  Also, do get discouraged early on.  You best gains will probably start at 8-10 weeks in, which is why I recommend running more than the standard 12 weeks..  For PCT, I think just running clomid at 50 and nolva at 20 for the full 4 weeks is enough.  Whatever you decide, good luck.


----------



## Joliver (Jan 12, 2014)

I will reiterate what most have said.  The simpler the better, but if you are dead-set on prop, drop it from the front of your plan because the Dbol should give you plenty of kick in the beginning.  You can, however, keep it at the end to keep your test levels up until you want to start your PCT.  

Back in the day, I hated waiting for the long ester test levels to dip over weeks before I could start my PCT.  Shorter esters are pretty good cycle enders.


----------



## Rumpy (Jan 12, 2014)

Oh yes, what Jol said.  I guess I left esters out of my last post.  I would just go C or E for the full run, at least for your first, but as jol said, if you really want to can transition to prop at the end, but for a first, I would keep it simple.  Besides, the hell that is the 2+ weeks waiting to start PCT is a rite of passage, so you should do it at least once.


----------



## SuperBane (Jan 12, 2014)

Test @ 12 weeks in and out


----------



## PillarofBalance (Jan 13, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> As everyone has said that's too complicated a cycle to be a first cycle. Pick a single ester, enanthate or cypionaye are the common 2, and pin twice weekly for 12-16wks. Run HCG and AI during the cycle (aromasin will more than likely be required to be taken daily not EOD), and run your PCT after the ester has cleared (14-18days for E and Cyp). No need for clomid at 100mg, you can run it 50/50/25/25 or 50/25/25/25. Get blood work done a few weeks before, during (around 6-8wks in), and after the cycle (8wks after finishing PCT).



What's the half life of aromasin?


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 13, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> What's the half life of aromasin?



In women it's around 27hrs but there's evidence it's much shorter in males, around 9hrs


----------



## JOMO (Jan 13, 2014)

"I" would drop the dbol and just run the prop and E. I personally like incorporating a short ester in the beginning and end of a cycle.


----------



## hulksmash (Jan 13, 2014)

DAMNIT KEEP IT KISS

test e 500mg 12 weeks


----------



## hulksmash (Jan 13, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> all that blood levels shit is bullshit...you pin hit the gym and eat like a animal..forget about feeling things and being stable..pin and bust ass



spasiba muy droog

Took words outta my mouth


----------



## No1uknw (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks again guys I'm continuing to fine tune my plans here. I'll admit I'm partial to the idea of a kickstart and backload but I wont run in halfcocked and I'll have more then I need on hand of everything. Especially PCT and Estro management. My smartass attitude says shoot that shit and foam roll it out. Actually I've been reading on foam rolling after pinning and using a heating pad. Also bloods before, during and after will be done. I'll get my before bloods done next month to see where everything is at naturally.


----------



## powermaster (Jan 14, 2014)

Same here with the above. My first cycle was test cyp 12 weeks pinned 250mg twice a week. Make sure diet is in check... That's where I was lacking and a good pct. you can make good gains on keeping it simple


----------



## AlphaD (Jan 14, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> DAMNIT KEEP IT KISS
> 
> test e 500mg 12 weeks



Not much more to add then the rest of the brotherhood did.......but I throw my 2 cents in a advise on simple, easy cycle your first round.  You have to know and feel what the compound is working in your body, good or bad.  Throwing to many in to the mix will make it a guessing game with the sides.  I ran 500 Test E split into 250 on Mon and Thurs.  I worked hard and keep nutrition in check as much as possible, and put on 15 pounds.  But I learned how my body reacted to the Test and found side wise I did good.  Now I am ready to cycle again with and additional add to mix.  If sides arise, I will be able to pinpoint it.  Slow and steady bro, not a race in this game.


----------



## AlphaD (Jan 14, 2014)

hulksmash said:


> DAMNIT KEEP IT KISS
> 
> test e 500mg 12 weeks



This ^^^^^      Not much more to add then the rest of the brotherhood did.......but I throw my 2 cents in a advise on simple, easy cycle your first round.  You have to know and feel what the compound is working in your body, good or bad.  Throwing to many in to the mix will make it a guessing game with the sides.  I ran 500 Test E split into 250 on Mon and Thurs.  I worked hard and keep nutrition in check as much as possible, and put on 15 pounds.  But I learned how my body reacted to the Test and found side wise I did good.  Now I am ready to cycle again with and additional add to mix.  If sides arise, I will be able to pinpoint it.  Slow and steady bro, not a race in this game.


----------



## TheBlob (Jan 15, 2014)

Rumpy said:


> Yup. pretty much going to agree with everyone here.  The standard boiler plate first cycle is 500/week for 12 weeks.  personally, I think that's a little too conservative.  I would consider 600/week for 16 weeks.  Whatever you decide, I recommend ordering more gear than you think you need.  I think we have all ended up deciding to bumping our levels or running a little longer, so it's always good to have more on hand.  Also, do get discouraged early on.  You best gains will probably start at 8-10 weeks in, which is why I recommend running more than the standard 12 weeks..  For PCT, I think just running clomid at 50 and nolva at 20 for the full 4 weeks is enough.  Whatever you decide, good luck.



Absofriggn lutely. I infact just did this very recently and now I have to pay another wu, and shipping fee that wa unnecessary also my experience the first time was I shoulda ran my cycle a little longer than I planned. However I am a black sheep and reccomend for starting going a little lower than recommended doses. For example taking the typical dose of dbol for me cripples me with back pain. Thats just one example. You can always add more but once its in you.... its in you.


----------



## def (Jan 16, 2014)

My first cycle I did test prop kickstart with test e 500mg/wk. I can tell you from personally experience that the differing levels made it hard for me to pinpoint an AI dosage. I ended up crashing my E2 like the 5th week in. In hindsight I think first time out simple is better.


----------



## Malevolence (Jan 16, 2014)

Holy shit!!! how did you come up with that??  Looks ****ing confusing!! Just run some test and if you want to spice it up run some npp


----------



## transcend2007 (Jan 16, 2014)

As usual great advise from the UGBB brothers.

I am more concerned that you are more than 20 pounds pounds fatter than you want to be at the beginning of your cycle and that you are working out with weights only 3 days per week.

You did not say how long you've been working out, your current body fat%, or anything about your diet. 

For the record DIET WILL BE 80% TO 90% OF YOUR SUCCESS OR FAILURE.  It would make more sense to me that you spend the next 6 months to a year getting your diet dialed in and a serious workout regimen in place.  

You clearly have spent time on boards and seen how advanced cycles are created.  It would seem you would benefit much more from advanced diet design and completing much more serious research into how to best workout.

Gear will only make a 10%-30% impact with everything else (diet and work out) dialed in.  And, much less if your diet is not on point.

You were smart to come here seeking advise.  I hope you'll give it all serious thought as you were not planning on anything until April.


----------



## Tadger (Jan 17, 2014)

I don't really know why everyone is so opposed to a "complicated" first cycle.  Personally, I think his cycle is rather well thought out.  I'd recommend a couple little tweaks, but it's not a bad start at all.

In the beginning, don't worry about the prop.  Simply frontload the enanthate, and you'll be fine.  Stick yourself with 600mg on the first two shots, then just drop it to 300mg every 3 days.  I like the idea of the prop at the end though.  Keeping test levels up with the prop while the enanthate clears your system is a great idea.  Then, when it's time to come off, you don't have to worry about being in that weird limbo where test levels aren't high enough to maintain muscle mass, but still high enough to prevent proper recovery.  Then when you quit the prop, it's out of your system fast and you hit the recovery phase.  The intermittent HCG throughout is a decent idea, but honestly, it's probably not needed.  Just hit it at the end and you'll be fine.  Your PCT is good, might overlap the tamoxifen/clomiphene a bit the end of week 20.

The dbol is probably unnecessary.  I'd recommend leaving it out altogether, or even replacing the prop at the end with the dbol.  It will provide the same benefit as using the prop would confer.  It'll keep protein synthesis and nitrogen retention high while that enanthate clears, and drops out of the system a bit faster.  If you go that route, just overlap the clomid/nolva a bit more.

Other than that, it looks great, Man.  Honestly, you could run that same cycle a few times over and still make great progress.


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 17, 2014)

Tadger said:


> I don't really know why everyone is so opposed to a "complicated" first cycle. Personally, I think his cycle is rather well thought out.  I'd recommend a couple little tweaks, but it's not a bad start at all.
> 
> In the beginning, don't worry about the prop.  Simply frontload the enanthate, and you'll be fine.  Stick yourself with 600mg on the first two shots, then just drop it to 300mg every 3 days. I like the idea of the prop at the end though.  Keeping test levels up with the prop while the enanthate clears your system is a great idea.  Then, when it's time to come off, you don't have to worry about being in that weird limbo where test levels aren't high enough to maintain muscle mass, but still high enough to prevent proper recovery.  Then when you quit the prop, it's out of your system fast and you hit the recovery phase.  The intermittent HCG throughout is a decent idea, but honestly, it's probably not needed.  Just hit it at the end and you'll be fine.  Your PCT is good, might overlap the tamoxifen/clomiphene a bit the end of week 20.
> 
> ...




For many reasons a few being there's no need for a complicated cycle, the person does not have the experience to necessarily run such a complicated cycle, and results from less complicated cycles can be just as good, etc. 

That's hardly an effective frontload of the test e. It's more of a waste of a compound than a front load. He'd be better off using the prop but since it's his first cycle there's no need for either.


----------



## Tadger (Jan 19, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> For many reasons a few being there's no need for a complicated cycle, the person does not have the experience to necessarily run such a complicated cycle, and results from less complicated cycles can be just as good, etc.
> 
> That's hardly an effective frontload of the test e. It's more of a waste of a compound than a front load. He'd be better off using the prop but since it's his first cycle there's no need for either.


I tend to agree that simpler is usually better in most cases, so I definitely understand where you are coming from there.  I'm not sure that I agree with ya completely though.  Sure, he could make some really great progress with less gear.  More is not necessary.... but, then again, AAS are not necessary either.  I assume that at his age, he probably has more discretionary income than many of the younger folks... so he has the freedom to pick up whatever he would like.   I agree, that without the experience, one should generally start slow and learn as ya go.  That said said, because he is not experienced, he decided to consult those that are.  Armed with the gear and the info, if he wants to go the extra mile and get a bit more out of the cycle, then really there's no reason to tell him not to.  

Now as far as the frontload, how exactly is that a waste?  It may not get him to steady state conc. immediately, but it should still be plenty effective.  I was looking at it from a risk mitigation standpoint, planning for simplicity, smaller injection volume, and reduced injection frequency.  I like to limit the prop simply to cut down in the number of holes he's got to put in himself, keep the injection volume down and limit the risk of scarring and infection.  It will still give him a little kickstart and get blood levels up considerably faster than a straight dose all the way through.  That is simply my preference.  

I'm curious, what would your ideal frontload for enanthate at 600mg/wk look like?


----------



## DocDePanda187123 (Jan 19, 2014)

Tadger said:


> I tend to agree that simpler is usually better in most cases, so I definitely understand where you are coming from there.  I'm not sure that I agree with ya completely though.  Sure, he could make some really great progress with less gear.  More is not necessary.... but, then again, AAS are not necessary either.  I assume that at his age, he probably has more discretionary income than many of the younger folks... so he has the freedom to pick up whatever he would like.   I agree, that without the experience, one should generally start slow and learn as ya go.  That said said, because he is not experienced, he decided to consult those that are.  Armed with the gear and the info, if he wants to go the extra mile and get a bit more out of the cycle, then really there's no reason to tell him not to.



AAS may not be necessary at the moment moment in this particular case but in others it can be, regardless, when teaching someone to swim do you throw them in the deep end their first time in the water or do you start them off in the shallow end? The gear will still be fine to use by the time he's ready to cycle again, why not simply hold off on it and save it for the next one? Just bc he has it doesn't mean he has to use it. There is still plenty reason to tell him not to use it as there are simpler, safer, and just as effective options for a first time AAS user. Info is only part of the equation, experience is another. Armed with info he's at a much better position to be safe and enjoy the benefits of the cycle but without the experience he might not know how to read bloodwork, manage estradiol, watch for the many different sides one can experience, adjust dosages, etc etc etc. Eerie nice helps with this and for these reasons and more a simple test cycle for your first is plenty. 



> Now as far as the frontload, how exactly is that a waste?  It may not get him to steady state conc. immediately, but it should still be plenty effective.  I was looking at it from a risk mitigation standpoint, planning for simplicity, smaller injection volume, and reduced injection frequency.  I like to limit the prop simply to cut down in the number of holes he's got to put in himself, keep the injection volume down and limit the risk of scarring and infection.  It will still give him a little kickstart and get blood levels up considerably faster than a straight dose all the way through.  That is simply my preference.
> 
> I'm curious, what would your ideal frontload for enanthate at 600mg/wk look like?



For the frontload you have to think about ester half life, metabolism speed, and what you're trying to accomplish. A frontload is used to bring plasma levels of testosterone, in this case, from baseline/endogenous levels to near steady state levels one will experience later in the cycle. Pinning 600mg twice the first week won't accomplish this. It will bring levels up quicker than if he hadn't done it but it doesn't do what it set out to do...IMO making it a waste as you failed to accomplish your objective and it uses more gear. For 600mg/wk, IF attempting a frontload (I neither recommend them nor use them myself), I would suggest no less than 2000mg in the first injection. After roughly one terminal half life, whatever half life value you use, you will have metabolized enough hormone bc enough is present to metabolize (remember with these compounds we're dealing with first-order kinetics for absorption and excretion NOT zero-order kinetics) to bring plasma levels close to steady state levels. 

If you indeed are looking at it from a risk mitigation standpoint and simplicity standpoint then that statement is at odds with your previous statement:



			
				Tadger said:
			
		

> I don't really know why everyone is so opposed to a "complicated" first cycle.



Which one is it?


----------

