# The Cashout Leg Training Thread...



## Cashout (Jan 25, 2013)

Since we had such engaging discussion with the back thread and I have nothing to do today, I figured I'd create a similar Leg Training thread. So, I am going to start by discussing the evolution of my Leg Training Philosophy.

First some current pics of 27” inch quads on a 28.75 inch waist…

Quads – standing relaxed unflexed






Quads – side shot





Quads – front flexed 





Beginning
When I was 15 and started training quads, I did the very basic exercises for traditional straight sets. Simply, I used the same common method approach that so many used and still use for leg training. I did 3-4 sets of squats for 10 reps. Then, I move on to leg press for 3-4 more sets before wrapping up with leg extensions for 3-4 sets of higher reps to burn out. After which I hit a couple of sets of lying leg curls and stiff leg deadlifts. Wrapping the whole thing up with calf raises and seated calf.

I did this for the first several of years of my training. The routine worked well and did produce results. However, after a few years, I began to notice that the progress had slowed down considerably even though I was pushing heavier and heavier weight. At one point I was clocking 4 sets of squats for 20 reps with 405, 15 reps with 495, and 2 sets of 10 reps with 585 wearing nothing more than a belt. From there I’d move on to leg press for sets of 10 reps with 32 plates on the press. Yes, you read that correctly – 32 plates on a leg press! In terms of squatting and pressing, I was pushing big weight but the actual work load was just not stimulating my quads into additional development. Additionally, I realized that with an increasing weight load, I was risking significant injury. So, as I analyzed what I was doing I decide something had to change because the risks were exceeding the returns.

Rule #1 of Leg Training – Make lighter weight feel heavy to the legs.

This rule was developed because during my leg work, my supporting muscles like lower back and shoulders were starting to become the limitations in my leg training. I still ahd “gas in the tank” to train legs but I actually couldn’t because my support muscles were unable to continue their role in the exercises. So, I decided to get radical and switch things around. Initially, I inverted my leg training routine. I started with leg extensions and leg curls fist in my leg training. Four sets of each to failure was just the ticket! Then I would squat and leg press. Boy that made a big difference. Initially, I cut my squat weight in half. After pre-exhusting with leg externisons and leg curls, I was squatting with a mere 315 for sets of 10-12 and and press 16 plates for sets of 10. Worked great - my quads were again driven to the brink during these sessions. So this pre-exhaust component became a staple of my leg training. Later, as I my legs continued to grow, I had to again revise the pre-exhaustion part of my leg training. For the past 10 years, I’ve exclusively use the pre-exhaustion part of leg training in conjunction with super and giant sets for legs. This really upped the work load up one more notch and significant contributed to even more productive leg session. Today’s routine looks like this…

Leg Extension – 200 lbs X Max reps to failure supersetted with…
Seated Leg Curl – 200 lbs X Max reps to failure supersetted with…
Squats 405 X 10 reps.

I do that cycle 4 times. Then I move on to calves.

It takes about 45 minutes to complete that leg session.

Rule #2 of Leg Training – You can’t over train legs

This one is going to cause a lot of folks to cringe but I tell you that the legs can stand a heck of a lot more work than 99% of the guys in gyms across the country are tossing at them. Someone once told me, if a body part is still sore from the prior training session, don’t train it because it is not ready to be worked again. That might be true for some body parts but I don’t believe it for a second with legs. When I was building my wheels, I routinely trained them every three days and sometimes that meant hitting them 3X in a week depending on how my schedule worked out. 
I know if your legs are sore it hurts to work them. That is true. Muscle soreness notwithstanding, for 90% of the guys, leg training is not fun. For me it was the my favorite body part. Now add muscle soreness to leg training and 99% of guys have the perfect excuse to go to the gym and do some chest and arms, right. That will not get you massive wheels. If you want to look different then 99% of the guys in the gym you must train differently. Legs have to be worked beyond what you think they are capable of handling. It means you have to be willing to cross into a whole different world of training and put aside fear and pain and not accept being a guy with “average” legs because the vast majority of guys have barely average wheels.
So there you have it – a couple of my basic philosophies on Leg Training.

We can talks specifics – quads, hams, calves, tempo, reps, tools, whatever you guys want. Let’s open it up!


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## LeanHerm (Jan 25, 2013)

Wow bro. Just wow is all in gonna say. Lol.


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## amore169 (Jan 25, 2013)

Awesome wheels Cashout! Great advice.


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## #TheMatrix (Jan 25, 2013)

Boner.


Great work.  Motivation?  Thats plenty.  Time to focus on legs more.


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## 63Vette (Jan 25, 2013)

Great advice Cash. I stumbled my way in to the exact same philosophy. I train more for physique than the typical bodybuilder but my leg routine morphed in to the exact same changes as yours so there must be something to it!

Much Respect,
Vette


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## mistah187 (Jan 25, 2013)

Not sure if it is meant to b but, when I read things like this it is just motivating. I love training legs. I was born with bean poles for legs, I mean no shape. I have killed my legs for a long time and have gotten some respectable legs now. No cashout wheels... But wheels none the less. Great read and keep them coming.


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## Cashout (Jan 25, 2013)

Not my intention to be "a motivational" figure. I am happy nonetheless if I have that impact. I just truly enjoy bodybuilding and it is something that I don't get to discuss on a daily basis with those physically around me so I have to turn to you guys.



mistah187 said:


> Not sure if it is meant to b but, when I read things like this it is just motivating. I love training legs. I was born with bean poles for legs, I mean no shape. I have killed my legs for a long time and have gotten some respectable legs now. No cashout wheels... But wheels none the less. Great read and keep them coming.


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## Cashout (Jan 25, 2013)

A couple of other thoughts....

Knee Wraps - I don't use them. I tried them years ago and the problem I had was that they really stifled the pump in my legs. It made it very hard for me to feel the muscles and focus on the contractions. Additionally, my training now involves a lot of super and giant sets so wraps are just not an option. 

Depth on Squat - Some guys use the phrase "ATG." Well, in fact, I've never actually seen anyone touch their buttocks to the ground doing a squat unless they were falling. I use the phrase "till my hamstrings touch my calves." For me that puts the top of my quads parallel to the floor. I don't like to say "parallel" cause a lot of guys judge "parallel" by their hamstrings - I swear I have had guys look in the mirror and see that their hamstrings are parallel to the floor and call that a parallel depth squat. Big difference between parallel on the hamstrings and the top of the quads. That is why I say "till my hamstring touch my calves.

Smith Machine Squats - I have done a lot of this and sometimes I still do - I know you'll say "heretic" and try to stone me but here me out. on days when I train by myself, I found that it was the best "safety" option when superstting/giant setting extensions and leg curls and squatting. I have never fallen with a bar on my back and I never will. That will only lead to an injury and in no way contribute to improving your physique. So once I started doing a lot of giant sets, the Smith Machine Squat became a safe way to push physical boundaries without a spotter.

Reps - Historically, I never did anything less than 8 reps on a leg exercise. Doubles and Triples are not going to contribute to a bodybuilding physique. They will  get you injured. Check your ego at the door if you want to build wheels like a BB. Today, it's nothing less than 10 reps and it has been that way for about the past 10 years. I also found very high rep straight sets beneficial as I was transitioning into super and giant sets for legs. That is one more subtle way to begin to work into this style of intense training and not initially overwhelm yourself. 

Last but not least, Throwing up - yes, I've had plenty of those session when I lost my cookies. Not proud of it because in the end all you have done is wasted a meal. But, if you train like I do it will happen to you until you condition your body to handle the CNS stress that this type of leg training puts on you. Don't let it distract you from pushing into that pain zone. Most guys fear it but to really really get into a whole different leg training level you have to condition your mind and body to move past it.


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## Azog (Jan 25, 2013)

Cashout said:


> Not my intention to be "a motivational" figure. I am happy nonetheless if I have that impact. I just truly enjoy bodybuilding and it is something that I don't get to discuss on a daily basis with those physically around me so I have to turn to you guys.



Keep it coming then, because you can not get any more helpful or motivational. Thanks brother!


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## pirovoliko (Jan 25, 2013)

i like days when cash has nothing else to do!!!!  We all benefit..


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## PFM (Jan 25, 2013)

I recently incorporated pre-exuastion and instantly added size and shape. I'll be doing super-set sled or hacks and extensions next leg training day. Giant sets session after that. I've read over the years the trauma required and pretty much ignored by the muscle fibers in the legs is several times more then any muscle group: Period. With this confirmation I am throwing all my prior leg principles out the window.
Often these ideas run wild in my head but I find my comfort zone once in the gym. Another remarkably clear and motivating thread by One Real Mother Focker.

Thanks Cash!


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## gymrat827 (Jan 25, 2013)

nice post Mr. UnReal.  


continue on with chest, arms, etc etc

these threads create tons of conversation


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## NbleSavage (Jan 26, 2013)

Much respect, Cash and thanks for sharing! Care to layout your entire leg training cycle? (eg. days per week and alternate workouts) This thread is timely for me as I'm looking to mix-up my leg workout. Your "Giant Sets" approach might be just the ticket!


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## DarksideSix (Jan 26, 2013)

I heard you talk briefly about something like this for legs on another site and I tried it for about  weeks.  super setted 3 sets of leg ext to failure with 20 rep squats.  Fuck me running that was brutal, lost my lunch a fe times but i'll be damn if my legs didn't look the best they ever have.  I was always more of a power/big lifter with legs, heavy squats and dead lifts but i finaly checked my ego and tried the high rep/super set thing and it's great stuff.

Cheers!


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## grind4it (Jan 26, 2013)

Cashout, thank you very much for taking the time to share this information.

Grind


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## JOMO (Jan 26, 2013)

WHAT ARE YOU!?

In all seriousness, thank you! Over the past month I have dropped weight significantly to "perfect" my form and exhaust the muscle more. Great advice as always. Also as said as above, lets get you a few more days off and get a cashout training manual going.


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## AndroSport (Jan 26, 2013)

I am one of the guys who gets leg soreness so crippling that I feel i need a wheelchair lol... it gradually gets worse over the first 4-5 days and end up lasting about a week each time. I swear I sometimes i feel less mobile than my grandma who's 97. Doing some light leg work seems to help work out some of the soreness though.

I think my legs are sore just from reading this thread though. Nice!


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## Cashout (Jan 26, 2013)

NbleSavage said:


> Much respect, Cash and thanks for sharing! Care to layout your entire leg training cycle? (eg. days per week and alternate workouts) This thread is timely for me as I'm looking to mix-up my leg workout. Your "Giant Sets" approach might be just the ticket!



The days per week actually varies based on how I feel. In the past when I was working to build mass, I'd hit legs in some weeks as many as three times. I remember many times training legs on Monday, Thursday, and again on Sunday only to train them one time on Thursday the following week. Other times, I'd go for long stretches where I'd hit legs twice a week on Tuesday and again on Friday. 

That was when I was working to build mass. For the past 10 years, I've only trained them once a week with the idea of 100% maintenance. I don't want to add anymore size to my legs whatsoever. So I train just enough to keep them where they are in the those pics I posted.

As I wrote, the best growth for me came from intense super setting and giant setting with a "pre-exhuast" approach.

All of those session had the same thing in common - Leg Extensions and Leg Curls back to back to failure then some compound movement as a finisher.

So these were staples of my routines...

Leg Extension to failure super setted with Lying Leg Curl to Failure super setted with Squats.

Leg Extensions to failure super setted with Seated Leg Curl to failure super setted with Leg Press

Leg Extensions to failure super setted with Seated Leg Curl to failure super setted with Smith Machine Front Squats

Leg Extension to failure super setted with Lying Leg Curl to failure super setted with Hack Squats

So you can take those 4 basic routines and really even mix it up more by changing the reps and the weight.

For all these routines, I'd do 3-4 sets. If I was going higher reps (15-20 per exercise) and lighter weight, I did 3 sets of the cycle. If I was going lower reps (10 reps per exercise) and heavier weight I did 4 sets of the cycle.

Taking it up another notch, sometimes, I do drop sets on the Leg Externsions and Leg Curls while super setting the compound movement after that.

So something like this...

Leg extensions 250 X failure >> 180 X failure >> 100 X failure super setted with Leg Curl 250 X failure >> 170 X failure >> 90 X Failure super setted with Smith Machine Front Squats 225 X failure.

Hope that gives you some ideas!


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## NbleSavage (Jan 26, 2013)

That's the ticket, Cashout. Huge props for being willing to share! Good show, Mate! 

I tried a bit of the pre-exhaust technique during my leg session this morning. Bit of the leg extensions to failure super-set with squats for 10 reps. Did four cycles of this. HUGE quad pump! I had to work-in the leg curls after the fact (I train at home and have to alter the setup to go from extensions to curls) but I also included 4 sets of 10 reps on the leg press & then hit calves.

Best leg workout I've had in a long time. 

Going to use this and may incorporate it 2x per week.

Cheers, Cash!


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## NbleSavage (Jan 27, 2013)

Adding my petition to this thread for a Cash Chest Training Thread 

Do it, Mate. DOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEET. 

/Ahnold


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## StoliFTW (Feb 23, 2013)

thanks alot for sharing. I'm looking to change things about and will try this today!


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## Floribama (Mar 31, 2013)

Cashout said:


> The days per week actually varies based on how I feel. In the past when I was working to build mass, I'd hit legs in some weeks as many as three times. I remember many times training legs on Monday, Thursday, and again on Sunday only to train them one time on Thursday the following week. Other times, I'd go for long stretches where I'd hit legs twice a week on Tuesday and again on Friday.
> 
> That was when I was working to build mass. For the past 10 years, I've only trained them once a week with the idea of 100% maintenance. I don't want to add anymore size to my legs whatsoever. So I train just enough to keep them where they are in the those pics I posted.
> 
> ...



Cashout, when you were hitting legs 3 times per week, how long were you spending in the gym?  I assume you were also hitting other muscle groups on the same days


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## Cashout (Mar 31, 2013)

Floribama said:


> Cashout, when you were hitting legs 3 times per week, how long were you spending in the gym?  I assume you were also hitting other muscle groups on the same days



Been a long time but my best recollection, was about 45 minutes per session was the norm. 

At that point in my life I was in college and still and undergrad. I trained on a 6 days a week 2-times a day or a 3-on 1-off 2-times a day system back then. 

I had a rotating schedule for body parts as well.

So there were weeks were I'd hit legs 3 times in a week. It was always a Monday/Thurs/Sunday order. Typically about every 4th week was how that worked out with my rotation scheme. So it wasn't every week but about every 3rd week.

I'd train a body part at 6 am and another again at 6 pm. So, yes more than one body part per day but never in the same session unless I absolutely had to do so because of a scheduling conflict.

Of course, all my routines were and still are very quick and even in college at the very height of my training, I never spent more than 1 hour in the gym. The way I train, you just can't keep up the intensity beyond an hour.

In thinking about it, my typical routines take about this long start to finsih

Chest - 35 minutes
Back - 30 minutes
Legs - 45 minutes
Shoulders - 25 minutes
Arms/calves - 25 minutes


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## DarksideSix (Mar 31, 2013)

I must admit, this is probably one of the best leg workouts i have ever done.  

I have always had very strong legs, I'm tall and my legs are long....big, but not ripped.  I use to think it was because I've done martial arts my whole life and was very flexible.  I could squat and deadlift well over 500lbs but could never get much done with my legs.  i tried all different kinds of workouts, squatted until my eyes bled but nothing changed.

Then I read what Cashout did for his leg workout.....anyone who's seen his legs knows!

I thought...."20 rep squats, how can that work?"   yesh....HOLY BALLS!

Now i was at a point where I could do 4 sets of 8-10 nice, deep squats with 405.  I tried Cashouts workout.  

I started off with leg extentions for 15-20 reps and supper setted squats at 20 reps, figured i'd start light and do 225....yeah, i died!

First set was preety east, second was hell, third set i thought i was gonna die!  I left and went home that day, no abs, no cardio, just a shower and the couch.  

Long story short, did this for almost 2 months and my legs never looked better.


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## NbleSavage (Mar 31, 2013)

DS6, were you running 4 x 20 on the squats as well as the leg exts? I had initially understood the compound movement to be 4 x 10.


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## DarksideSix (Mar 31, 2013)

i only did 3x20.  tore my shit up!!!


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## Floribama (Apr 1, 2013)

Cashout said:


> Been a long time but my best recollection, was about 45 minutes per session was the norm.
> 
> At that point in my life I was in college and still and undergrad. I trained on a 6 days a week 2-times a day or a 3-on 1-off 2-times a day system back then.
> 
> ...



So were your rest periods between sets really short?  Like 1 mnute?


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## Cashout (Apr 1, 2013)

Not that short but 2-3 minutes for most larger body parts including legs.


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## I bench 135x5 (Apr 1, 2013)

Great Read! Starting tomorrow.


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## don draco (Apr 1, 2013)

Your legs are insane, cashout.  Good work.  Hopefully I can get mine to look like that one day. And I'll try the pre-exhaustion method.  Thanks for the info & inspiration.


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## Azog (Apr 4, 2013)

Cash, you make no mention of lunges. What's your opinion of them?


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## Cashout (Apr 5, 2013)

Azog said:


> Cash, you make no mention of lunges. What's your opinion of them?



From a bodybuilding perspective, I don't personally like them and it relates to efficiency.

It is very difficult to do lunges with a high level of intensity. Balance is compromised because of the shifting of weight back and forth from step to step. Balance involves stabilizing the bar and your body on one foot at a time as you step. All this takes away from the intensity and subsequent focus on the muscle being worked.

I have found more efficient exercise for working the same muscles.


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## Azog (Apr 5, 2013)

Cashout said:


> From a bodybuilding perspective, I don't personally like them and it relates to efficiency.
> 
> It is very difficult to do lunges with a high level of intensity. Balance is compromised because of the shifting of weight back and forth from step to step. Balance involves stabilizing the bar and your body on one foot at a time as you step. All this takes away from the intensity and subsequent focus on the muscle being worked.
> 
> I have found more efficient exercise for working the same muscles.




I like this answer, and it gives me 1 more good reason to abandon them haha. I hate lunges. I don't notice much effect in the supposed target muscles. Just feels like really annoying cardio....


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## NbleSavage (Apr 27, 2013)

More love for Cash's Leg Training Thread. I've found his technique of super-setting extensions with a compound (squats for example) also helps to mitigate nasty back pumps which can ruin an otherwise painfully productive leg day. 

Cheers, Cash!


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## MrRonBurgandy (Apr 28, 2013)

My legs are embarrassing!! I've always had the mentality to train heavy squats first them burn them out with curls and extensions. Hasn't worked for me. I'm going to give this routine a shot. Tore my acl and mcl and really struggled with confidence going heavy. This might help me go lighter while increasing my size. Great post. Thanks


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## NbleSavage (Jun 11, 2013)

Bump for this thread once more - great info here and obvious results on Cash.

Cash, where do you incorporate calf training into your leg program?


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## Cashout (Jun 11, 2013)

NbleSavage said:


> Bump for this thread once more - great info here and obvious results on Cash.
> 
> Cash, where do you incorporate calf training into your leg program?



Same day after quads and hams are complete.

When I was trying to build calves, I did calves by themselves on Monday and Thursday at 6 am every week. From the pictures, you can see that one area in which I am not lacking is calf development so now I do them only once a week after the rest of legs.


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## motark (Jun 12, 2013)

Now with leg extensions, you never really want to lockout your knees right?

Also with calves, do you usually do a high rep lower weight or high weight with 5-10 reps?


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## Cashout (Jun 12, 2013)

motark said:


> Now with leg extensions, you never really want to lockout your knees right?
> 
> Also with calves, do you usually do a high rep lower weight or high weight with 5-10 reps?



I lock out on every rep if I can. It is not the same as, say, hack squats.

I don't do anything less than 10 reps ever.


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## Jada (Jun 13, 2013)

Thanks for sharing Ur training cash , awesome post.


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