# Does testosterone help with losing fat?



## Superman21 (Oct 10, 2014)

Does the increase of testosterone from taking test help in losing fat. Like let's say doing heavy cardio which can cause muscle loss as well as fat loss. Would someone lose a lot less muscle using and lose mostly fat?


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## bigdog6693 (Oct 10, 2014)

If you are injecting test ur going to gain muscle and strength. Depending on how much bodyfat u have will tell how much fat to muscle u will lose. U can do cardio in the morning fasted and ur body will go straight to the fat for energy. U can also do cardio after ur weight workout as well. U may lose some muscle while doing cardio but like i always say, u cant have the best of both worlds. Ur either big with a little fat or ur shreded and a kittle smaller with no fat. Being ripped up though gives the illusion that u look bigger.


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## TriniJuice (Oct 10, 2014)

Test helps build muscle which helps aid fat loss....


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## bigdog6693 (Oct 10, 2014)

Yes very true, more muscle u have, more fat is burned


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 10, 2014)

TriniJuice said:


> Test helps build muscle which helps aid fat loss....


That's more long term though. And most beginners don't think that way. I am sure the op means will running a cycle of test cut him up asap.

The answer is not really no.


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## bigdog6693 (Oct 10, 2014)

Yea pillar of balance is right just running test isnt going to cut u up. For one wat is ur bf% that is wat we need to know. For two if ur bf% is higher then 15% then i suggest u get it lower then thst before u start any steriod or cycle.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 10, 2014)

1lb of muscle burns approximately 6cal/lb/day. So if you increase your skeletal muscle mass, not just LBM, by 20lbs that's still only a 120cal added expenditure....not much. 

Yes test will burn some fat and help prevent muscle loss but it won't burn fat to a clinically significant degree meaning you may lose some fat but not enough to notice a difference really. It will help prevent muscle loss though pretty effectively even during periods of aggressive calorie deficits. If you want to lose fat and maintain your muscle mass you will need to eat less calories than you burn and ensure you're getting an adequate protein intake. You can do cardio to help increase your calorie expenditure but don't be fooled by the fasted cardio or fat burning zone myths, they're just that. My personal preference for cardio is using a push sled but anything you do consistently will do. Good luck


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## tarmyg (Oct 10, 2014)

While we are killing off cardio myths in this thread we can also put fasted cardio among that one. Doing cardio on empty of full stomach relates zero to fat burned.


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## shenky (Oct 10, 2014)

Superman21 said:


> Does the increase of tosterone from taking test help in losing fat. *Like let's say doing heavy cardio which can cause muscle loss as well as fat loss. Would someone lose a lot less muscle using and lose mostly fat?*




yes.

However, I highly recommend not running your first cycle for your first time whilst you are a high BF percentage and/or are unfamiliar with cutting and losing fat naturally. You'd be shorting yourself on potential results, but running the same risks.

I was a fat kid until 16 y/o. I know the struggle and desperation is real. However, the reality is simply that you don't need testosterone to lose fat. My girlfriend, for instance, has lost nearly 50 pounds since I met her 6 months ago and I can tell you second hand that she did it MOSTLY be diet alone. She works out, but not 50 pounds works out. She works out "in the kitchen", so to speak.


also, dog, you mentioned heavy cardio. Cardio is good. It's great. It works, but sometimes people burn a lot of calories and don't make up for it with food. It's counterintuitive, but it's possible you are not eating enough also.  For example, my jiu-jitsu buddy asked me why he wasn't losing wieght despite decreasing calories and training everyday. He told me his diet, I said, "woah dude, add like, 600-800 calories, crazy". 3 weeks later he cant stop thanking me because he's magically shedding fat.

What does your diet and exercise regiment look like?


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## MrRippedZilla (Oct 12, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> While we are killing off cardio myths in this thread we can also put fasted cardio among that one. Doing cardio on empty of full stomach relates zero to fat burned.



Incorrect..

If your relatively lean to begin with (below 10-12%bf) then fasted cardio does have its advantages to allow your body to access the more stubborn fat stores.This is because when your fasted, insulin levels are rock bottom, making it easier for your to actually get the fat out of the cells.
Of course all this can be made more effective with the use of an alpha receptor agonist such as yohimbe before the session.

Basically, fasted cardio has no addittional benefits for most people - but it does have uts place for the very lean, especially for those in contest prep mode.


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## SFGiants (Oct 12, 2014)

Not without adjusting your diet.


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## bigdog6693 (Oct 13, 2014)

True u can do all the cardio u want, but if ur not adjusting ur diet, ur just wasting time with cardio


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## TheLupinator (Oct 13, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Incorrect..
> 
> If your relatively lean to begin with (below 10-12%bf) then fasted cardio does have its advantages to allow your body to access the more stubborn fat stores.This is because when your fasted, insulin levels are rock bottom, making it easier for your to actually get the fat out of the cells.
> Of course all this can be made more effective with the use of an alpha receptor agonist such as yohimbe before the session.
> ...


Yohimbine is an antagonist* in alpha2 receptors, which is what I believe you're referring to with regards to far storage.


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## Get Some (Oct 13, 2014)

You will lose fat without adjusting your diet at all just through the fact that you are building muscle.... however, as POB said, "losing fat" and getting "shredded" are entirely different things. There needs to be an addendum to your original post explaining what goal you have so you do not get blanket statement type answers. The general rule of thumb is that if someone can answer your question with a single word or short sentence, then it is either a poorly formed question or was not thought about in enough detail to warrant a detailed explanation.


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## TheLupinator (Oct 13, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> That's more long term though. And most beginners don't think that way. I am sure the op means will running a cycle of test cut him up asap.
> 
> The answer is not really no.


Agreed. Unless in a calorie deficit you will not lose any significant amount of fat. But when eating above "maintenance" calories it's much easier to stay lean because you can utilize more calories as you recover faster. Also the added strength and energy in the gym will help. Again these are more long term benefits, so don't expect to drop a couple inches off your waist on your first 12wk cycle of test.


Also keeping estrogen in check is big.. you let that get out of range on the high side and fat will stick to you


....oh and fcck fasted cardio... unless you're stepping on stage and you're trying to burn your last lb of fat while activating the least amount of muscle possible so you don't go catabolic while in a severe calorie deficit it's useless... IMHO


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## MrRippedZilla (Oct 14, 2014)

TheLupinator said:


> Yohimbine is an antagonist* in alpha2 receptors, which is what I believe you're referring to with regards to far storage.



Correct 

I also agree with you about fasted cardio being unnecessary for the majority of people. I was simply stating that it has benefits vs non-fasted cardio & is NOT a myth as many seem to believe.


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## hulksmash (Oct 14, 2014)

Test does cause fat loss.

Diet is the key; gear expedites.

Using test e+TNE caused me to lose fat so quickly, that-as POB said best-it "defied conventional wisdom".


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## hulksmash (Oct 14, 2014)

TriniJuice said:


> Test helps build muscle which helps aid fat loss....



Does no one understand physiology and AAS?

*TEST AND ALL OTHER AAS INCREASES LIPOLYSIS.

Lipolysis=THE PROCESS OF METABOLIZING ADIPOSE TISSUE.

YOU WILL LOSE FAT ON ALL AAS. DIET CONTROLS THE DEGREE OF FAT LOSS WITH GEAR.*


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## TheBlob (Oct 14, 2014)

Hulksmash said it all I think... And as far as calories peoples bodies are different bro I gotta drop to sub 2000 cal to drop bodyfat,,, conversely on cycle ive eaten 4000 cal and not gained fat true story.


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## tarmyg (Oct 14, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Incorrect..
> 
> If your relatively lean to begin with (below 10-12%bf) then fasted cardio does have its advantages to allow your body to access the more stubborn fat stores.This is because when your fasted, insulin levels are rock bottom, making it easier for your to actually get the fat out of the cells.
> Of course all this can be made more effective with the use of an alpha receptor agonist such as yohimbe before the session.
> ...



Feel free to backup that statement with science. Maybe I missed something on Google Scholar and I am always happy to learn more. What I know, and what is backed by science, is that a recent study of muslim men during ramadan noted no difference in fat loss from fasted cardio. But, as I said, if you have other science I am all ears.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 14, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> Feel free to backup that statement with science. Maybe I missed something on Google Scholar and I am always happy to learn more. What I know, and what is backed by science, is that a recent study of muslim men during ramadan noted no difference in fat loss from fasted cardio. But, as I said, if you have other science I am all ears.



Lyle. McDonald has an article on it here Tarmey. Not much science to the article itself but the info is presented more in detail in one of his books. I'll see if I can find more info for you. Overall, the differences are negligible for most people except those who are lean already and trying to get very lean and even then, the differences don't amount to crazy fat loss.


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## MrRippedZilla (Oct 14, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> Feel free to backup that statement with science. Maybe I missed something on Google Scholar and I am always happy to learn more. What I know, and what is backed by science, is that a recent study of muslim men during ramadan noted no difference in fat loss from fasted cardio. But, as I said, if you have other science I am all ears.



You have to remember that the advantages to fasted cardio that I am referring to only apply to those who are very lean - below 10%bf. The ramadan study, along with others, certainly doesnt fill that requirement.

I will explain the science behind it but I should say that there is no one study to back all this up, its more a case of collecting evidence from different studies & putting the pieces together:

Firstly, yohimbe is required to make this protocol work because of the ibnfuence of alpha receptors when trying to lose the last few pounds of fat. For the already lean, losing the last few pounds is made difficult due to the dominance of alpha receptors over beta in certain parts of the body - lower abs, thighs for women, etc.
This is a major problem due to the fact that alpha receptors INHIBIT lipolysis, hence the need for an antagonist likr yohimbe. 

Secondly, you have the issue of poor blood flow to these AR (alpha receptor) dominant areas. 
You can test this yourself by feeling certain fat depots like the bottom part of your abs & comparing it to another fatty area - you should notice that the areas with poor blood flow feel colder.
Without good blood flow the body finds it difficult to access and transport fat away from the cells & may decide to use something else for energy - agaun this is only an issue for the very lean. This is why cardio is a good idea since this is a good way to increase overall body blood flow & not only get the fat out of the cells but into the bloodstream.

Finally, and most crucial for the "fasted" part of the protocol, is the role of insulin.
The stubborn areas of fat that I mentioned have a much higher rate of alpha compared to beta receptors also, as a consequence of this, have 1 more major issue - higher insulin sensitivity.
Insulin sensitivity is NOT a good thing if your trying to lose fat since the body is absolutely determined to use glucose as its main source of energy for all activities. This is made worse by the fact that the leaner you get, the more insulin sensitive you become. Add on top of this the fact that the stubborn fat stores have a higher insulin sensitivity compared to the rest of the body anyway - for example I recall a study stating that the thigh has a rate of insulin sensitivity 65% higher compared to average.
So to limit the role insulin has in choosing the preferred energy source - you choose fasted cardio ensuring ibsulin levels are rock bottom & its influence minimized.

The difference in fat loss rate may not be much, but I find that this protocol is very effective for my clients & it certainly has a scientific base


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## tarmyg (Oct 15, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Lyle. McDonald has an article on it here Tarmy. Not much science to the article itself but the info is presented more in detail in one of his books. I'll see if I can find more info for you. Overall the differences are negligible for most people except those who are lean already and trying to get very lean and even then the differences don't amount to crazy fat loss.
> 
> http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fasted-cardio-and-fat-loss-qa.html/



As much as I appreciate anecdotal evidence it many times fails when analyzed closer. I would feel much more comfortable if this was backed by something. He is pretty much only using theory to explain something that he think might be happening without actually proving it is.


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## tarmyg (Oct 15, 2014)

MrRippedZilla said:


> You have to remember that the advantages to fasted cardio that I am referring to only apply to those who are very lean - below 10%bf. The ramadan study, along with others, certainly doesnt fill that requirement.
> 
> I will explain the science behind it but I should say that there is no one study to back all this up, its more a case of collecting evidence from different studies & putting the pieces together:



Look, there have, as far as I can find, never been a meta-analysies done on this subject but again, if I missed somthing please point me in that direction.



> Firstly, yohimbe is required to make this protocol work because of the ibnfuence of alpha receptors when trying to lose the last few pounds of fat. For the already lean, losing the last few pounds is made difficult due to the dominance of alpha receptors over beta in certain parts of the body - lower abs, thighs for women, etc.
> This is a major problem due to the fact that alpha receptors INHIBIT lipolysis, hence the need for an antagonist likr yohimbe.



We can not talk about fasted cardio and at the same time say that a certain substance is required. That makes the whole case for fasted cardio fall flat. Anyone who would introduce a substance while running a fasted cardio study and say that is required for the process to work would be discredited.



> Secondly, you have the issue of poor blood flow to these AR (alpha receptor) dominant areas.
> You can test this yourself by feeling certain fat depots like the bottom part of your abs & comparing it to another fatty area - you should notice that the areas with poor blood flow feel colder.
> Without good blood flow the body finds it difficult to access and transport fat away from the cells & may decide to use something else for energy - agaun this is only an issue for the very lean. This is why cardio is a good idea since this is a good way to increase overall body blood flow & not only get the fat out of the cells but into the bloodstream.
> 
> ...



This is all theory without any basis in science, no offense.



> The difference in fat loss rate may not be much, but I find that this protocol is very effective for my clients & it certainly has a scientific base



If you have clients where you have performed some sort of blind study to prove this I would love to look at that data but unless you have, no, this have zero scientific practical base.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Oct 15, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> As much as I appreciate anecdotal evidence it many times fails when analyzed closer. I would feel much more comfortable if this was backed by something. He is pretty much only using theory to explain something that he think might be happening without actually proving it is.



That's how it is in the article but as I said here much more in depth discussion in his Stubborn Fat Solution book but I can't find my copy and having trouble finding it online. I'll keep looking. The problem with using your sudy on men during Ramadan to disprove RippedZilla is that he's talking specifically about lean individuals. I assume bc I haven't seen your study that it doesn't specifically study lean individuals but normal/average ones and they would notice no difference in fat loss doing fasted cardio. The fasted part, according to Lyle, only helps when blood flow and mobilization become an issue in certain stubborn fat deposits when you're lean to begin with.


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## HollyWoodCole (Oct 15, 2014)

One of the issues is that with the stigma associated with steroid usage there are not many studies available as they are illegal and the general public opinion of steroid usage is pretty skewed due to some targeted political campaigns against the drugs early on.  In this game it will be difficult to find a multitude of different studies performed with AAS, which is one of the reasons I believe broscience is found far too often.

I can tell you however, rather unscientifically, that I lose fat every time I'm on cycle or blast, regardless of how I eat.


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## MrRippedZilla (Oct 15, 2014)

There are studies showing that alpha receptors limit lipolysis, there are studies that show blood flow to be poorer in areas of stubborn fat,  there are studies showing that insulin plays a role in fat loss & is lower when fasted - if you look hard enough you will find evidence for all of this, I am simply putting the pieces together into one protocol for fasted cardio. 
So no - it is NOT all theory.

So taking all this into consideration, explain to me how this protocol does NOT have a scientific base? Remembering that martin berkhan & lyle mcdonald both support fasted cardio for the very lean - in fact lyle has a book entitle "the stubborn fat solution" dedicated to the subject fully supported with references - I suggest you buy it if your interested in the science behind it.

"Required" was the incorrect term to use, "optimal" would be a better one to describe the alpha receptor antagonist part of the protocol - the fasted cardio would still be more beneficial vs normal due to the insulin benefits I mentioned.


LOL I have multiple clients who had their diet & training controlled to compare the fasted cardio protocol vs normal cardio, with bf% measurements made through a dexa scan - their was enough of a difference for me to recommend it.
Was it a blind study performed in a lab? No, therefore its probably not enough evidence for you - which is fine


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## transcend2007 (Oct 15, 2014)

This question is incomplete in my opinion.  The real question is what is your goal by increasing testosterone?

If the answer is to gain muscle you must consume more calories than you burn to put yourself in a surplus to gain muscle.  This would not be the ideal time to lose fat.

It's been correctly said before when you bulk you bulk when you cut you cut!

Testosterone may be effectively used in either scenario.  

Your goal will be your starting point and then implementing your diet to support your goal will achieve your result.

I can tell you for 3 years on hrt/trt that test (and HGH) alone without proper diet WILL NOT create substantial fat loss.  Your diet choices are critical and will ultimately determine your results.


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## jyoung8j (Oct 16, 2014)

It'll help burn fat but u gotta work at it like anything else..


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## tarmyg (Oct 16, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> That's how it is in the article but as I said here much more in depth discussion in his Stubborn Fat Solution book but I can't find my copy and having trouble finding it online. I'll keep looking. The problem with using your sudy on men during Ramadan to disprove RippedZilla is that he's talking specifically about lean individuals. I assume bc I haven't seen your study that it doesn't specifically study lean individuals but normal/average ones and they would notice no difference in fat loss doing fasted cardio. The fasted part, according to Lyle, only helps when blood flow and mobilization become an issue in certain stubborn fat deposits when you're lean to begin with.



I have to agree that it is not enough to disprove. I am re-posting an article I posted in another forum here to see what you say. I will also read that book you mention and get back to you on this particular subject.


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## tarmyg (Oct 16, 2014)

*Does Cardio After an Overnight Fast Maximize Fat Loss?*

A common Fat burning strategy employed by bodybuilders, athletes, and fitness enthusiasts is to perform cardiovascular exercise early in the morning on an empty stomach. This strategy was popularized by Bill Phillips in his book, "Body for Life (23). According to Phillips, performing 20 minutes of intense aerobic exercise after an overnight fast has greater effects on fat loss than performing an entire hour of cardio in the postprandial state. The rationale for the theory is that low glycogen levels cause your body to shift energy utilization away from carbohydrates, thereby allowing greater mobilization of stored Fat for fuel. However, although the prospect of reducing the body fat by training in a fasted state may sound enticing, science does not support its efficacy.

First and foremost, it is shortsighted to look solely at how much fat is burned during an exercise session. The human body is very dynamic and continually adjusts its use of fat for fuel. Substrate utilization is governed by a host of factors (i.e., hormonal secretions, enzyme activity, transcription factors, etc), and these factors can change by the moment (27). Thus, fat burning must he considered over the course of days—not on an hour-to-hour basis—to get a meaningful perspective on its impact on body composition (13). As a general rule, if you burn more carbohydrate during a workout, you inevitably burn more fat in the post-exercise period and vice versa.

It should be noted that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) has proven to he a superior method for maximizing fat loss compared with a moderate-intensity steady-state training (10,26,29). Interestingly, studies show that blood flow to adipose tissue diminishes at higher levels of intensity (24). This is believed to entrap free fatty acids within fat cells, impeding their ability to be oxidized while training. Yet, despite lower fat oxidation rates during exercise, fat loss is nevertheless greater over time in those who engage in HIIT versus training in the "fat burning zone" (29), providing further evidence that 24-hour energy balance is the most important determinant in reducing body fat.

The concept of performing cardiovascular exercise on an empty stomach to enhance fat loss is flawed even when examining its impact on the amount of fat burned in the exercise session alone. True, multiple studies show that consumption of carbohydrate before low-intensity aerobic exercise (up to approximately 60% Vo,max) in untrained subjects reduces the entry of long-chain fatty acids in the mitochondria, thereby blunting Fat oxidation (1,14,18,28). This is attributed to an insulin -mediated attenuation of adipose tissue lipolysis, an increased glycolytic flux, and a decreased expression of genes involved in fatty acid transport and oxidation (3,6,15). However, both training status and aerobic exercise intensity have been shown to mitigate the effects of a pre-exercise meal on fat oxidation (4,5,24). Recent research has shed light on the complexities of the subject.

Horowitz et al. (14) studied the fat burning response oil) moderately trained individuals in a fed versus fasted state to different training intensities. Subjects cycled for 2 hours at varying intensities on 4 separate occasions. During 2 of the trials, they consumed a high-glycemic carbohydrate meal at 30, 60, and 90 minutes of training, once at a low intensity (25% peak oxygen consumption) and once at a moderate intensity (68% peak oxygen consumption). During the other 2 trials, subjects were kept fasted for 12-14 hours before exercise and for the duration of training. Results in the low-intensity trials showed that although lipolysis was suppressed by 22% in the fed state compared with the fasted state, fat oxidation remained similar between groups until 80-90 minutes of cycling. Only after this point was a greater fat oxidation rate observed in fasted subjects. Conversely, during moderate-intensity cycling, fat oxidation was not different between trials at any time-this is despite a 20-25% reduction in lipolysis and plasma Free fatty acid concentration.

More recently, Febbraio et al. (9) evaluated the effect of pre-exercise and during exercise carbohydrate consumption on fat oxidation. Using a crossover design, 7 endurance-trained subjects cycled for 120 minutes at approximately 63% of peak power output, followed by a "performance cycle" where subjects expended 7 kJ/(kg body weight) by pedaling as fast as possible. Trials were conducted on 4 separate occasions, with subjects given (a) a placebo before and during training, (b) a placebo 30 minutes before training and then a carbohydrate beverage every 15 minutes throughout exercise, (c) a carbohydrate beverage 30 minutes before training and then a placebo during exercise, or (d) a carbohydrate beverage both before and every 15 minutes during exercise. The study was carried out in a double- blind fashion with trials performed in random order. Consistent with previous research, results showed no evidence of impaired fat oxidation associated with consumption of carbohydrate either before or during exercise.

Taken together, these studies show that during moderate-to-high intensity cardiovascular exercise in a fasted state-and for endurance-trained individuals regardless of training intensity- significantly more fat is broken down than that the body can use for fuel. Free fatty acids that are not oxidized ultimately become re-esterified in adipose tissue, nullifying any lipolytic benefits afforded by pre-exercise fasting.

It should also be noted that consumption of food before training increases the thermic effect of exercise. Lee et al. (19) compared the lipolytic effects of an exercise bout in either a fasted state or after consumption of a glucose/milk (GM) beverage. In a crossover design, 4 experimental conditions were studied: low-intensity long duration exercise with GM, low-intensity long duration exercise without GM, high-intensity short duration exercise with GM, and high-intensity short duration exercise without GM. Subjects were 10 male college students who performed all 4 exercise bouts in random order on the same day. Results showed that ingestion of the GM beverage resulted in a significantly greater excess post-exercise oxygen consumption compared with exercise performed in a fasted state in both high- and low- intensity bouts. Other studies have produced similar findings, indicating a clear thermogenic advantage associated with pre-exercise food intake (7,11).

The location of adipose tissue mobilized during training must also be taken into account here. During low-to-moderate intensity training performed at a steady state, the contribution of fat as a fuel source equates to approximately 40-60% of total energy expenditure (30). However, in untrained subjects, only about 50-70% of this fat is derived from plasma Free fatty acids; the balance comes from intramuscular triglycerides (IMTG) (30).

IMTG are stored as lipid droplets in the sarcoplasm near the mitochondria (2), with the potential to provide approximately two-thirds the available energy of muscle glycogen (32). Similar to muscle glycogen, IMTG can only be oxidized locally within the muscle. It is estimated that IMTG stores are approximately 3 times greater in type I versus type II muscle fibers (8,21,31), and lipolysis of these stores are maximally stimulated when exercising at 65% Vo2max (24).

The body increases IMTG stores with consistent endurance training, which results in a greater IMTG utilization for more experienced trainees (12,16,22,31). It is estimated that nonplastria fatty acid utilization during endurance exercise is approximately twice that for trained versus untrained individuals (24,32). Hurley et al. (17) reported that the contribution of IMTG stores in trained individuals equated to approximately 80% of the total body fat utilization during 120 minutes of moderate-intensity endurance training.

The important point here is that IMTG stores have no bearing on health and/or appearance: it is the subcutaneous fat stored in adipose tissue that influences body composition. Consequently, the actual fat burning effects of any fitness strategy intended to increase fat oxidation must be taken in the context of the specific adipose deposits providing energy during exercise.

Another factor that must be considered when training in a fasted state is its impact on proteolysis. Lemon and Mullin (20) found that nitrogen losses were more than doubled when training while glycogen depleted compared with glycogen loaded. This resulted in a protein loss estimated at 10.4% of the total caloric cost of exercise after 1 hour of cycling at 61% Vo,,max. This would suggest that performing cardiovascular exercise while fasting might not be advisable for those seeking to maximize muscle mass.

Finally, the effect of fasting on energy levels during exercise ultimately has an effect on fat burning. Training early in the morning on an empty stomach makes it very difficult for an individual to train at even a moderate level of intensity. Attempting to engage in HIIT style routine in a hypoglycemic state almost certainly will impair performance (33). Studies show that a pre-exercise meal allows an individual to train more intensely compared with exercise while fasting (25). The net result is that a greater number of calories are burned both during and after physical activity, heightening fat loss.

In conclusion, the literature does not support the efficacy of training early in the morning on an empty stomach as a tactic to reduce body fat. At best, the net effect on fat loss associated with such an approach will be no better than training after meal consumption, and quite possibly, it would produce inferior results. Moreover, given that training with depleted glycogen levels has been shown to increase proteolysis, the strategy has potential detrimental effects for those concerned with muscle strength and hypertrophy.

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18. Ivy JL Miller W, Dover V. Goodyear LG, Sherman VVM, Farrell S, and Williams H. Endurance improved by ingestion of a glucose polymer supplement. Med Sci Sports Exerc 15: 466-471, 1983.
19. Lee YS, Ha MS. and Lee YJ. The effects of various intensities and durations of exercise with and without glucose in milk ingestion on postexercise oxygen consumption. J Sports Med Physical Fitness 39: 341-347, 1999.
20. Lemon PW and Mullin JP. Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise. J App! Physic! 48: 624-629, 1980.21,
21. Malenfant P. Joanisse DR, Theriault R, Goodpaster BH, Kelley DE, and Simoneau JA. Fat content in individual muscle fibers of lean and obese subjects. lot _1 Obes Re/at Metab Disorci. 25: 1316-1321, 2001.
22. Martin WH III, Dalsky GP, Hurley BF, Mafthews DE, Bier DM, Hagberg JM, Rogers MA, King DS, and Holloszy JO. Effect of endurance training ton plasma free fatty acid turnover and oxidation during exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 265: E708-E714, 1993. 
23. Phillips B. Body for Life. New York, NY: HarperCollins, 1999.
24. Romijn IA, Coyle EF, Sidossis LS, Gastaldelli A. Horowitz JF, Endert E, and Wolfe RR. Regulation of endogenous fat and carbohydrate metabolism in relation to exercise intensity. Am J Physic! 265(3 Pt 1): E380-E391, 1993.
25. Schabort El, Bosch AN, Welter, SM, and Noakes TD. The effect of a preexercise meal on time to fatigue during prolonged cycling exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc 31: 464-471, 1999.
26. Schoenfeld B and Dawes J. High-intensity interval training: Applications for general fitness training. Strength Cond J 31: 44-46. 2009.
27. Sonko Si, Fennessey PV, Donnelly JE, Bessesen D, Sharp TA, Jacobsen DJ, Jones RH, and Hill JO.Ingested fat oxidation contributes 8% of 24-h total energy expenditure in moderately obese subjects. J Nutr 135: 2159-2165, 2005.
28. Spriet LL and Watt MJ. Regulatory mechanisms in the interaction between carbohydrate and lipid oxidation during exercise. Acts Physiol Scand 178: 443-452, 2003.
29. Tremblay A, Simoneau JA, and Bouchard 0. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism 43: 814-818, 1994.
30. van Loon U. Use of intramuscular triacylglycerol as a substrate source during exercise in humans. J App! Physic)! 97: 1170-1187, 2004.
31. van Loon UC, Koopman R, Stegen JH, Wagenrnakers Al, Keizer HA, and Saris WH. Intramyocellular lipids form an important substrate source during moderate intensity exercise in endurance- trained males in a fasted state. J Physiol 553: 611-625, 2003.
32. Watt MJ, Heigenhauser GJ, and Spriet LL, Intramuscular triacylglycenol utilization in human skeletal muscle during exercise: Is there a controversy? J App! Physic! 93: 1185-1195, 2002.
33. Wright DA, Sherman WM, and Dernbach AR. Carbohydrate feedings before, during. or in combination improve cycling endurance performance. I App! Physic! 71: 1082-1088. 1991.

Original Article - Brad Schoenfeld


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## trodizzle (Oct 16, 2014)

Superman21 said:


> Does the increase of testosterone from taking test help in losing fat. Like let's say doing heavy cardio which can cause muscle loss as well as fat loss. Would someone lose a lot less muscle using and lose mostly fat?



I found a big bonus to being on test was that my endurance shot through the roof. Due to that I was able to do 2 a days and lift normally at lunch but then run for about 45 minutes after work each day as well. Due to that added cardio I did see fat melt away but it was more of a side effect of being on test vs the test directly.


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## MrRippedZilla (Oct 16, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> The rationale for the theory is that low glycogen levels cause your body to shift energy utilization away from carbohydrates, thereby allowing greater mobilization of stored Fat for fuel.



The protocol I set out has NOTHING to do with low glycogen levels or the fat burning zone - I never said you have to do LISS cardio, although it is my preferred method since it helps enhance recovery while dieting.




tarmyg said:


> It should be noted that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) has proven to he a superior method for maximizing fat loss compared with a moderate-intensity steady-state training (10,26,29).



SUPERIOR FOR WHO EXACTLY???
Real HIIT is NOT superior for guys below 10%bf, who have been dieting for a long time & do some sort of resistance training 3-4x week.
All hiit will do is use up energy that should be saved for REAL training, push into recovery time & accelerate metabolic adaptations.. There is a good reason why NO natural bodybuilder does hiit for contest prep.
Brad is being way too general here - a habit of his I might add.




tarmyg said:


> Horowitz et al. (14) studied the fat burning response oil) moderately trained individuals in a fed versus fasted state to different training intensities. Subjects cycled for 2 hours at varying intensities on 4 separate occasions. During 2 of the trials, they consumed a high-glycemic carbohydrate meal at 30, 60, and 90 minutes of training, once at a low intensity (25% peak oxygen consumption) and once at a moderate intensity (68% peak oxygen consumption). During the other 2 trials, subjects were kept fasted for 12-14 hours before exercise and for the duration of training. Results in the low-intensity trials showed that although lipolysis was suppressed by 22% in the fed state compared with the fasted state, fat oxidation remained similar between groups until 80-90 minutes of cycling. Only after this point was a greater fat oxidation rate observed in fasted subjects. Conversely, during moderate-intensity cycling, fat oxidation was not different between trials at any time-this is despite a 20-25% reduction in lipolysis and plasma Free fatty acid concentration.
> 
> More recently, Febbraio et al. (9) evaluated the effect of pre-exercise and during exercise carbohydrate consumption on fat oxidation. Using a crossover design, 7 endurance-trained subjects cycled for 120 minutes at approximately 63% of peak power output, followed by a "performance cycle" where subjects expended 7 kJ/(kg body weight) by pedaling as fast as possible. Trials were conducted on 4 separate occasions, with subjects given (a) a placebo before and during training, (b) a placebo 30 minutes before training and then a carbohydrate beverage every 15 minutes throughout exercise, (c) a carbohydrate beverage 30 minutes before training and then a placebo during exercise, or (d) a carbohydrate beverage both before and every 15 minutes during exercise. The study was carried out in a double- blind fashion with trials performed in random order. Consistent with previous research, results showed no evidence of impaired fat oxidation associated with consumption of carbohydrate either before or during exercise.



Neither of these studies were done on very lean individuals who were dieting, making them irrelevant since the metabolic profile of individuals changes drastically under these conditions.




tarmyg said:


> Taken together, these studies show that during moderate-to-high intensity cardiovascular exercise in a fasted state-and for endurance-trained individuals regardless of training intensity- significantly more fat is broken down than that the body can use for fuel. Free fatty acids that are not oxidized ultimately become re-esterified in adipose tissue, nullifying any lipolytic benefits afforded by pre-exercise fasting.



LOL he's basically saying here that your body breaks down fat so quickly that it cannot possibly use it all therefore the lipolytic benefits of fasted training dont exist.
So its a bad thing to have too much fat available now is it?
Bullshit conclusion - NEXT.




tarmyg said:


> It should also be noted that consumption of food before training increases the thermic effect of exercise. Lee et al. (19) compared the lipolytic effects of an exercise bout in either a fasted state or after consumption of a glucose/milk (GM) beverage. In a crossover design, 4 experimental conditions were studied: low-intensity long duration exercise with GM, low-intensity long duration exercise without GM, high-intensity short duration exercise with GM, and high-intensity short duration exercise without GM. Subjects were 10 male college students who performed all 4 exercise bouts in random order on the same day. Results showed that ingestion of the GM beverage resulted in a significantly greater excess post-exercise oxygen consumption compared with exercise performed in a fasted state in both high- and low- intensity bouts. Other studies have produced similar findings, indicating a clear thermogenic advantage associated with pre-exercise food intake (7,11).



Yea...what scientists say is a "significant" thermic effect & what most people consider to be a significant effect are VERY different things in this context.
Go find the actual thermic value of food & you'll see what I mean 




tarmyg said:


> The location of adipose tissue mobilized during training must also be taken into account here. During low-to-moderate intensity training performed at a steady state, the contribution of fat as a fuel source equates to approximately 40-60% of total energy expenditure (30). However, in untrained subjects, only about 50-70% of this fat is derived from plasma Free fatty acids; the balance comes from intramuscular triglycerides (IMTG) (30).
> 
> IMTG are stored as lipid droplets in the sarcoplasm near the mitochondria (2), with the potential to provide approximately two-thirds the available energy of muscle glycogen (32). Similar to muscle glycogen, IMTG can only be oxidized locally within the muscle. It is estimated that IMTG stores are approximately 3 times greater in type I versus type II muscle fibers (8,21,31), and lipolysis of these stores are maximally stimulated when exercising at 65% Vo2max (24).
> 
> ...



All of this interesting info on the location of fat stores used for energy is NULLIFIED by the use of an alpha receptor antagonist, which is why its more optimal. 




tarmyg said:


> Another factor that must be considered when training in a fasted state is its impact on proteolysis. Lemon and Mullin (20) found that nitrogen losses were more than doubled when training while glycogen depleted compared with glycogen loaded. This resulted in a protein loss estimated at 10.4% of the total caloric cost of exercise after 1 hour of cycling at 61% Vo,,max. This would suggest that performing cardiovascular exercise while fasting might not be advisable for those seeking to maximize muscle mass.



LOL so many problems with this:
- nitrogen measurements are a notoriously incorrect method to use when trying to calculate actual muscle loss.
- The maximum amount of protein used to fuel cardio for 1hr, regardless of intensity, is 10% - thats a MAX.
- Literally none of this applies to individuals who are dieting because they will constantly be in a glycogen depleted state due to the energy deficit they're on so...NEXT.




tarmyg said:


> Finally, the effect of fasting on energy levels during exercise ultimately has an effect on fat burning. Training early in the morning on an empty stomach makes it very difficult for an individual to train at even a moderate level of intensity. Attempting to engage in HIIT style routine in a hypoglycemic state almost certainly will impair performance (33). Studies show that a pre-exercise meal allows an individual to train more intensely compared with exercise while fasting (25). The net result is that a greater number of calories are burned both during and after physical activity, heightening fat loss.



See this paragraph proves to me that Brad didn't write this article with the dieting lean, individual in mind.
You cannot preach about how awesome hiit is & then say fasted cardio drains your energy levels - nonsensical argument.




*Summary*

- This article was clearly written to address athletes & the general population, not lean individuals dieting down to single digit bf%.
- NONE of the studies directly referenced by the article are addressing the population I'm referring  to, making them close to irrelevant due to the huge metabolic differences between lean guys dieting vs everyone else.


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## TheLupinator (Oct 16, 2014)

tarmyg said:


> Feel free to backup that statement with science. Maybe I missed something on Google Scholar... What I know, and what is backed by science, is that a recent study of muslim men during ramadan noted no difference in fat loss from fasted cardio. But, as I said, if you have other science I am all ears.
> 
> 
> As much as I appreciate anecdotal evidence it many times fails when analyzed closer. I would feel much more comfortable if this was backed by something.
> ...




I'm all for science helping us draw conclusions on optimal practices for what we do, but if you want to sit around and wait for the perfect study to come along then you will be sitting for a very long time. 





MrRippedZilla said:


> The protocol I set out has NOTHING to do with low glycogen levels or the fat burning zone - I never said you have to do LISS cardio, although it is my preferred method since it helps enhance recovery while dieting.
> 
> SUPERIOR FOR WHO EXACTLY???
> Real HIIT is NOT superior for guys below 10%bf, who have been dieting for a long time & do some sort of resistance training 3-4x week.
> All hiit will do is use up energy that should be saved for REAL training, push into recovery time & accelerate metabolic adaptations.. There is a good reason why NO natural bodybuilder does hiit for contest prep.




Agreed.

HIIT - Superior for calories burned and thus for overall fat loss, BUT it drains glycogen stores and put so much stress on your body you will need to recover (This is why HIIT is recommended only 3x per week). These 2 points make LISS comparatively more beneficial because you can do it everyday without having a huge impact on glycogen stores or recovery, BOTH of which you are VERY VERY low on when dieting down to 8, 7, 6 % body fat. You need to preserve muscle first and foremost so protecting your already diminished glycogen stores and recovery is a factor beyond just total calories burned / fat lost. 

BTW I hate LISS and never us it... I can get to 10% bf without it (HIIT 3x week)... but to get to 8% I'm certainly not doing HIIT 5 days a week, this is where LISS comes into play


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## anewguy (Oct 17, 2014)

I haven't even read this whole thread so I don't know what the consensus is so far... But I can say for sure that test has helped me lose belly fat.


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