# Deca, Winstrol, and your joints



## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

Anthony Roberts
September 9, 2005



I’ve been somewhat plagued by certain questions ever since I started reading about steroids a decade ago. Certain ideas just never sat well with me…and unfortunately, when I asked more questions, I only received similar answers. When I was introduced to the world of internet steroid boards about half a decade ago, I posed these same questions to the “powers that be” on the boards I was a member of. I received many of the same answers, but my private messages and e-mails to moderators and staff members on various boards asking for references or some kind of logic were all left unanswered. On occasion I was offered the profound advice that it’s “well known that…etc…” and told to stop asking. Well known to whom? It’s certainly not well known to me.

One of the most annoying and often repeated “well known fact” is that Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) improves and soothes your joints by storing water in them. And, conversely, Winstrol has a “reverse osmotic” effect on your joints, which makes them ache when you use it, because it draws water out of your body, joints included. Reverse Osmotic? Wow…if we use really big words, maybe we’ll sound smart and people will stop asking questions. I believe this to be the dictum most anabolic steroid boards are founded on, and probably the way the staff on those boards begin their evening prayers…

Well, this mode of thinking isn’t good enough for me, and if you’re reading MESO-Rx or Avant’s website or Mind and Muscle magazine, it’s not good enough for you either. Hold on, because we’re about to engineer a paradigm shift!

My first clue to solving this mystery was that Winstrol was DHT derived, as is Masteron, and I have a friend who gets bad joint problems when using both of them. A little bit of research revealed many people shared his affliction. And it was very obvious that many people who’ve used Deca have found it to alleviate chronic joint problems and pains. I know that Deca is a 19-nor derived steroid, and I also know that it’s a progestin, and hence can stimulate the progesterone receptor (15) about 20% as well as progesterone. I also know that it aromatizes (converts to estrogen) at a much lesser rate than testosterone (16). Could the answer somehow lie in estrogen? Well, Deca doesn’t really aromatize much at all, so maybe there is a synergy between Deca’s PgR stimulating ability and its low(ish) estrogenic effects?

We certainly know that Estrogen depletion by menopause can decrease bone mineral density and the replacement of estrogen quickly restores the bone loss (18). In addition, we know that estrogen is aided in this by progesterone but that estrogen is more important (19). Collagen is also subject to improvement by addition of estrogen and progesterone (20). But is that all? Why do your joints “feel” better on deca?

And where would this leave us, in terms of Winstrol and Masteron causing pain in joints? I have always thought there was something more to this. And I think the answer lies in DHT.

You see, DHT administration has been found to decrease estrogen levels through a variety of mechanisms on peripheral tissue (1). DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues, either by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding. Either way, it has two clear mechanisms of possible action in peripheral tissue.
DHT and its metabolites have further been shown to inhibit aromatization itself, and this is a possible mechanism whereby it can reduce circulating levels of estrogen in your body. Indeed, DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are all potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. Finally, DHT acts on the HPTA to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins (it inhibits it). In fact, it’s so potent at reducing estrogen that transdermal DHT gel applied to the affected area has been used to treat gynocomastia (5)(6). Estrogen is the primary culprit in gyno (8), although we know that progesterone can be synergistic with estrogen in this (and other) respects(s).

DHT also has a negative effect on Progesterone biosynthesis in cells (7), and even has the ability to inhibit progesterone elevation caused by estrogen (10). Therefore DHT would be (and is) very effective in reducing gyno because it reduces both estrogen as well as progesterone. This property holds with DHT-derived steroids, for the most part as well, since Masteron has been found in some cases to have positive effects in reducing breast tissue tumors(9), which is essentially what gyno is (albeit benign).

You still with me? Good, because I want you to hold that first idea (DHT reduces estrogen and progesterone), and put it in the back of your mind while you read this next part, which is about your immune system.

T helper 1 (TH1) cells secrete pro-inflammatory cytokines as well as promoting cell-mediated immune responses, whereas TH2 cells trigger antibody production (2). Sex hormones (such as progesterone) that promote the development of a TH2 response also happen to antagonize the emergence of TH1 cells. Hence, when progesterone levels are (or the PgR, progesterone receptor) stimulated, you’ll have more anti-inflammatory cytokines floating around and less pro-inflammatory cytokines. Aspirin, Tylenol, and all of the over the counter anti-inflammatories are also useful as painkillers. Anti-inflammatory effects are often highly correlated with pain killing activity. What happens when women with arthritis get pregnant? They typically see a reduction in joint pain. This, I contend, is due to the progesterone and estrogen increases seen during pregnancy, and the anti-inflammatory effects they generate.

Progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). Ergo, progesterone has anti-inflammatory action. Deca is a progestin, meaning it stimulates the progesterone receptor. And that’s why it alleviates joint pains. Remember that old idea that deca promotes “water-retention” in the joints, and that’s why it helps your joints feel better? Bullshit. You just read the real reason deca helps joints. Deca actually works on two fronts as an androgen—which have well-documented effects on corticosteroids—and as a progestin to reduce inflammation.
Let’s move on….

Estrogen exerts what is known as a biphasic (two phase) effect. At low amounts, it is pro-inflammatory, because it stimulates the TH1 arm of the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation. In high(er) amounts, it is actually an anti-inflammatory (2). So when one takes very strong anti-estrogens (or aromatase inhibitors), one both loses water (because estrogen causes water retention) as well as experiences sore joints due to the pro-inflammatory effects generated from low estrogen levels.
Letrozole, which reduces blood plasma levels of estrogen due to aromatase inhibition, is the best example of this. It is infamous for causing aching joints. Letrozole decreases both aromatase activity as well as (obviously) plasma levels of estrogen, and in addition reduces progesterone levels (3). This is why when people use Letrozole, they claim it takes “water out of their joints” and makes them ache. Again, this is total bullshit.

Lowering estrogen will reduce water retention, but of equal importance it will also limit your body’s ability to produce estrogen-mediated anti-inflammatory reactions to weight training. You lose water and your joints hurt, which is why the myth exists that lost water in the joints is the source of discomfort. It is true that you one loses subcutaneous water when estrogen levels are low, but it’s simply not true that losing this water will make your joints hurt. It is the loss of estrogen and progesterone’s anti-inflammatory effects that is behind the aching joints. We can also make the claim that Testosterone can have some anti-inflammatory effects both through it’s aromatization to estrogen is as well as its effects on corticosteroids. This too, is well documented.

Now, let’s see if we can recall that first bit I asked you to remember….the bit where I told you that DHT reduces estrogen and progesterone. By now we have established that reductions in both of those hormones (Estrogen and Progesterone) are caused by DHT and DHT-derivatives, which carry many of the same properties and produce similar metabolites.

And this reduction in Estrogen/Progesterone, caused by DHT, reduces your body’s production of anti-inflammatory and painkilling cytokines. And this is what causes Winstrol, Masteron, etc to cause joint pain. And as noted at the beginning of this article, when one undergoes reductions in estrogen and progesterone, bone mineral density and collagen will suffer deleterious effects.

So there we have it, finally: a plausible explanation for the contrasting effects Deca and Winstrol have on joints.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

Anthony Roberts is an idiot and scumbag.


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Anthony Roberts is an idiot and scumbag.


Be that as it may, I was simply sharing for the sake of discussion. 
Seems plausible, but I'm not sure I like that pretty much everything is just based on his thoughts/assumptions.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Be that as it may, I was simply sharing for the sake of discussion.
> Seems plausible, but I'm not sure I like that pretty much everything is just based on his thoughts/assumptions.



Which is why I said he's an idiot lol


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Which is why I said he's an idiot lol



You do a lot of research. Have you ever come across anything even remotely related to this?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> You do a lot of research. Have you ever come across anything even remotely related to this?



To what? The dht aspect of winny causing the joint pain?


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> To what? The dht aspect of winny causing the joint pain?



That as well as progestin/inflammation related to nandrolone.


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 13, 2016)

I stopped at Anthony Roberts


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

Oh for ****s sake guys. Excuse me for attempting to stimulate relevant discussion on a bb/pl/gear forum.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> That as well as progestin/inflammation related to nandrolone.



High levels of progesterone can have anti-inflammatory effects but nandrolone is only moderately progestational.

Low doses of winny have been shown to help with osteoporosis and osteoarthritis which kind of takes away from it's joint pain causing legacy but those are low doses given to treat the diseases. 

In therapeutic doses, winny has no significant progestational activity which would seem to agree with the above. 

If dht is really to blame for the joint pain then why don't Anavar and primo cause the joint pain?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

And if dht/winny is truly so bad for the joints why is it one of the most common PEDs that is tested positive for among athletes who need functioning/pain free joints?


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> High levels of progesterone can have anti-inflammatory effects but nandrolone is only moderately progestational.
> 
> Low doses of winny have been shown to help with osteoporosis and osteoarthritis which kind of takes away from it's joint pain causing legacy but those are low doses given to treat the diseases.
> 
> ...


Good question. It does contradict his point, but for some reason I feel like there has to me more to it than just water retention or reduction in the joints. 
Some other things I was reading were attributing deca's joint benefits to its improvement in collagen synthesis. But, from what I have read, that ONLY happens when test is at physiological levels, which is rarely the case when someone runs deca. Maybe it does still improve collagen some when used with super physiological test, but jut at a much lower rate?

I still want to know where boldenone fits into all of this. Researching that is what led me to this article while following link wormholes. 

There's TONS of posts all over the place talking bold' benefits on collagen when used with trt level test, but I cannot find any actual studies or at least referenced posts.


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> And if dht/winny is truly so bad for the joints why is it one of the most common PEDs that is tested positive for among athletes who need functioning/pain free joints?



Maybe because it adds less body weight due to shedding water? Making it more desirable for that reason?

There ARE studies I've found showing that although Winstrol makes tendons grow, they're more brittle and weaker than beforehand, so I'm not sure why it would be sought after by a strength performance athlete.


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## stonetag (Feb 13, 2016)

I like the discussion of the joints, and how certain compounds affect them, It's just AR man, have you read many of his articles? He acts like that you have read everything possible on a subject, now you've came to him for the "REAL" definitive explanation of the subject. By summing the whole article up by saying "So there we have it, finally an explanation", god I want to punch him in the face. He copied some Phys. Ed. grad. students thesis, spun some of his over inflated ego into it, and viola! an arm chair biologist's article on Deca, Winsrol and joints. Sorry dude, you're smarter than that fuk.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Good question. It does contradict his point, but for some reason I feel like there has to me more to it than just water retention or reduction in the joints.



Occam's Razor:

Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.



> Some other things I was reading were attributing deca's joint benefits to its improvement in collagen synthesis. But, from what I have read, that ONLY happens when test is at physiological levels, which is rarely the case when someone runs deca. Maybe it does still improve collagen some when used with super physiological test, but jut at a much lower rate?
> 
> I still want to know where boldenone fits into all of this. Researching that is what led me to this article while following link wormholes.
> 
> There's TONS of posts all over the place talking bold' benefits on collagen when used with trt level test, but I cannot find any actual studies or at least referenced posts.



There are more studies showing a negative effect of AAS on tendons and ligaments than there are positive. IMO, ppl are either misinterpreting studies or only seeing one side. Just bc something improves collagen synthesis does not necessarily mean it's beneficial to tendons and ligaments. Then you have the fact that a therapeutic dosage of a drug can have a profoundly different impact than a non-therapeutic dose.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

ToolSteel said:


> Maybe because it adds less body weight due to shedding water? Making it more desirable for that reason?



There are ways to minimize water retention from any compound. 



> There ARE studies I've found showing that although Winstrol makes tendons grow, they're more brittle and weaker than beforehand, so I'm not sure why it would be sought after by a strength performance athlete.



Exactly! If it is so effective at making brittle ligaments and tendons then why use it? They do use it though and the rate of injury hasn't increased proportionally to the increase in PED use from what I've seen so there must be other reasons as well


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## ToolSteel (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> There are ways to minimize water retention from any compound.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! If it is so effective at making brittle ligaments and tendons then why use it? They do use it though and the rate of injury hasn't increased proportionally to the increase in PED use from what I've seen so there must be other reasons as well


Suggestions? Or was that an open ended question?



> Then you have the fact that a therapeutic dosage of a drug can have a profoundly different impact than a non-therapeutic dose.


THIS is something I've noticed in reading studies. More isnt always better. In fact it's often the opposite. And it's not just with aas. 
There's was something that came out not long ago, I think it might have been with Wellbutrin but I'm not sure, where a certain dose had been approved because it was assumed it had a multiplied effect of a smaller dose, but it turned out to be pretty harmful. 

So I guess in the end that makes it even that much harder to find good info, because most all studies done on aas are at doses far under what we use.


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## Maijah (Feb 13, 2016)

From my experience this is all subjective. I have never had achy or sore joints from winstrol. I have never experienced any kind of joint relief or a feeling of being "lubed up" ( except that time doc and I shared a room at the last ugbb meet I attended) on deca or npp. There are too many factors in the equation to simply say X=blah and Y=blah, everyone is different and so are the results from said aas.


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## jennerrator (Feb 13, 2016)

Maijah said:


> *From my experience this is all subjective. I have never had achy or sore joints from winstrol. I have never experienced any kind of joint relief or a feeling of being "lubed up" ( except that time doc and I shared a room at the last ugbb meet I attended) on deca or npp*. There are too many factors in the equation to simply say X=blah and Y=blah, everyone is different and so are the results from said aas.



This goes ditto for me..............................well, minus the Doc part


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2016)

Jenner said:


> This goes ditto for me..............................well, minus the Doc part



Are you saying I can't lube you up like I did Maij???


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## Bro Bundy (Feb 13, 2016)

I did one nand cycle a few years back.I had really bad shoulds,always cracking and painful.After a few weeks on nand I noticed they feel alot better and were giving me zero problems..Years after the cycle they are still 100% better then before the nand cycle.Imo It healed what ever was wrong with them.I hear alot of stories of it just masks the problem and once u get off you will experience the same problems.For me this was not the case.Nand had the most benefits for me out of any steriod i tried.I never used winny so i cant comment on it


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## Maijah (Feb 13, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Are you saying I can't lube you up like I did Maij???



Wtf! I would hope you held some things sacred! Now I feel cheap


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 13, 2016)

Me and bundy have the same story. I started taking steroids because of deca and a shoulder injury. After 4 weeks of starting deca my shoulder problem was gone. Healed completely and has never came back. Love nandy.


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## BiologicalChemist (Feb 14, 2016)

Damn TS that was a read.. highlight the good parts for us...sounds interesting. Idk much about winnys effects cuz I've never ran it in fear of complete annihilation of my hair but what I have read is winny is a poor choice because it makes the tendons that attach muscle to the bone brittle Idk if u mentioned this but...it has to do with winnies unique effects on collagen synthesis. It causes linear collagen synthesis instead of cross linked collagen synthesis which normally occurs. Linear synthesis isn't as strong as a cross-linked webbing and this can increase ur risk of tendon tears..but for this to happen i would imagine you would need to be on a lot of winni and repeated use..don't quote me on this, I think I can find a couple studies supporting this but I may be wrong..Idk if this is specific to winni, or all aas or if deca improves cross-linked collagen synthesis which further improves our tendons or gives us that feel of alleviated joint paint...there's probably several other factors involved too.


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## jennerrator (Feb 14, 2016)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> Are you saying I can't lube you up like I did Maij???



lol, was just stating that it hasn't happened yet...


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