# A Scientific Look at Reps and Sets



## 57muscle (Sep 7, 2014)

…When planning a workout you should first determine the desired training effect and select a repetition bracket to suit that goal. The following illustrates the typical training effect of various rep ranges... 

1-5 Reps = Maximal strength increases through enhanced neural drive 
6–8 Reps = Optimal compromise of maximal strength and hypertrophy gains 
9-12 Reps = Maximal hypertrophy gains leading to increased maximal strength 
13-20 Reps = Strength-endurance gains and lower hypertrophy gains. 

Using this table we can see that the best gains in strength are made using very low reps (1 to 5) whilst the best gains in muscle size (hypertrophy) are made using medium to high reps (6 to 12). The weight you lift will be dictated by the rep range you choose. If you are looking to gain muscle size you would select a weight that allowed you to perform between 6 and 12 reps. If you can only complete 3 reps the weight is too heavy. If you can do more than the chosen number of reps, the weight is too light. In addition to the above it should be noted that the fibers in your muscles are "typed" according to their oxidative capacities and how fast they fatigue. In simplistic terms you have slow twitch fibers (type-I) and fast twitch fibers (type-II). Fast twitch fibers respond best to low-rep training whilst slow twitch fibers respond better to high-rep training. Therefore, you should periodically juggle low-rep training, intermediate-rep training, and high-rep training to make the best progress. 

A Scientific Look at Sets...

A set is a group of consecutive reps. There are a number of factors to consider in determining how many sets to include in a workout; assuming that nutrition and rest are in check the most important factors are as follows. 

1. Number of Reps Selected It is generally accepted that there is minimum amount of time a muscle must be stimulated for maximum size and strength gains. Conversely there is a maximum amount of time a muscle can be stimulated before overtraining sets in. Basically the more reps per set you perform the lower the number of work sets you should perform and vice versa. 

2. Number of Exercises Per Training Session The more exercises you perform per muscle part, the fewer sets you need to achieve an optimal training effect for each exercise. 

3. Muscle Size The number of sets performed should be proportionate to the size of the muscle mass trained. You would therefore expect to use more sets when training larger muscle groups than you would with smaller muscle groups. In direct conflict with this is the fact that smaller muscle groups recover more quickly than larger groups; it should be remembered that many smaller muscle groups are worked when training larger muscle groups e.g. biceps when training back. 

4. Training Level One or two sets per exercise are usually enough for beginners whilst experienced trainees will often require increased volume. 

5. Muscle Composition Muscles that are inherently fast-twitch respond best to more sets. Muscles that are inherently slow-twitch respond best to fewer sets.


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 7, 2014)

The idea that you aren't going to grow from lifting in the 3 to 5 rep range is utter bullshit and I am living proof.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 7, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> The idea that you aren't going to grow from lifting in the 3 to 5 rep range is utter bullshit and I am living proof.



X2. 

Also add that the best way to train type II muscles is with either Olympic lifts or dynamic effort days, not just by using low rep training.


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## Seeker (Sep 7, 2014)

I spent a number of years not counting reps at all. Just lift


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## Seeker (Sep 7, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I spent a number of years not counting reps at all. Just lift



Not counting reps but still changing weight variations. It was an interesting approach


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## NbleSavage (Sep 7, 2014)

Have to agree with PoB and Doc here. I thought we'd laid to rest the notion that training in the sub-8 rep range won't induce a hypertrophic response. Also refuted is the notion that high-rep (13-20 and beyond) sets do not contribute to hypertrophy. 

Time under tension combined with progressive overload have been the variables I've had the most success with manipulating to drive hypertrophy. YMMV.


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## snake (Sep 7, 2014)

Just change things up once and a while. Give it your all and strength and size will come. Don't over think it. Just stay away from so many reps that cause your cardiovascular system to fail. 20 reps of squats can be just as dangerous as a double.


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## getm (Sep 8, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> The idea that you aren't going to grow from lifting in the 3 to 5 rep range is utter bullshit and I am living proof.


I disagree if that was the case all powerlifters would look like bodybuilders and they don't.... And all bodybuilders would be as strong as powerlifters and there not, both are not true I believe strength can increase size you must do appropriate number of reps and sets to create hypertrophy., in addition I see some guys in the he gym as much as me regardless of drugs they are smaller so explain how you get bigger doing less reps and or sets?  not the rule of thumb..
In reality I watch pros like Milo sarcev and I think shit I have been under training compared to these guys, 2-3 hours in the gym I guarantee you they were not doing 1-5 reps maxing out about 30 mins and they would be done....and getting large the whole time sounds like some craps so of the magazines puke out... 20 years of lifting tell me that not the case ....

Additionally lifting this heavy and maxing out leads to injuries period ...
Not to mention tendinitis and sore joints buddy we are not 21 anymore and if you plan on staying in the game need to learn some rules ask some vets if they max out... :/


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## SFGiants (Sep 8, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> The idea that you aren't going to grow from lifting in the 3 to 5 rep range is utter bullshit and I am living proof.



So am I!....


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## SFGiants (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> I disagree if that was the case all powerlifters would look like bodybuilders and they don't.... And all bodybuilders would be as strong as powerlifters and there not, both are not true I believe strength can increase size you must do appropriate number of reps and sets to create hypertrophy., in addition I see some guys in the he gym as much as me regardless of drugs they are smaller so explain how you get bigger doing less reps and or sets?  not the rule of thumb..
> In reality I watch pros like Milo sarcev and I think shit I have been under training compared to these guys, 2-3 hours in the gym I guarantee you they were not doing 1-5 reps maxing out about 30 mins and they would be done....and getting large the whole time sounds like some craps so of the magazines puke out... 20 years of lifting tell me that not the case ....
> 
> Additionally lifting this heavy and maxing out leads to injuries period ...
> Not to mention tendinitis and sore joints buddy we are not 21 anymore and if you plan on staying in the game need to learn some rules ask some vets if they max out... :/



Hum, I went from 215 to 270 if that's not growth then please tell me what it is?


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## SFGiants (Sep 8, 2014)

I grew just more dense but I grew!


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## getm (Sep 8, 2014)

Well you and I know that's not the norm... Don't care what you say... You know most guys after a certain point struggle to gain 10lbs of muscle I doubt that powerlifting helped them ...


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## SFGiants (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> Well you and I know that's not the norm... Don't care what you say...



You grow from diet!


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## getm (Sep 8, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> You grow from diet!


Diet helps only too a point, ultimately drugs, training and genetics make the true great pros or large guys....
Ronnie Coleman stated that if he wasn't genetically gifted he would of never gain his size no matter how much you want it..


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## getm (Sep 8, 2014)

SFGiants said:


> I grew just more dense but I grew!


How old are you just asking its easier to gain size under 40.... Look at guys like Stallone juicing after 50 yes great vascularity and some density but he can't add size  no matter how muh juice or GH he does its called genetics and youth.. He was already busted in Australia airport for gear ....lol


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> I disagree if that was the case all powerlifters would look like bodybuilders and they don't.... And all bodybuilders would be as strong as powerlifters and there not, both are not true I believe strength can increase size you must do appropriate number of reps and sets to create hypertrophy., in addition I see some guys in the he gym as much as me regardless of drugs they are smaller so explain how you get bigger doing less reps and or sets?  not the rule of thumb..
> In reality I watch pros like Milo sarcev and I think shit I have been under training compared to these guys, 2-3 hours in the gym I guarantee you they were not doing 1-5 reps maxing out about 30 mins and they would be done....and getting large the whole time sounds like some craps so of the magazines puke out... 20 years of lifting tell me that not the case ....
> 
> Additionally lifting this heavy and maxing out leads to injuries period ...
> Not to mention tendinitis and sore joints buddy we are not 21 anymore and if you plan on staying in the game need to learn some rules ask some vets if they max out... :/



It's apparent from your post you have no idea how a powerlifter trains.  We don't do max effort lifts every single training session and we don't do less sets than a bodybuilder.  I train 3 times per week for about 3 hours per training. And we incorporate slightly higher reps 7-10 range on accessories to avoid joint pain.

4 sets of 12 of every exercise will cause a slow adaptation.  

Bodybuilders rarely develop the thickness that a powerlifter can.  Arnold, Ronnie, these guys built their base in powerlifting. 

Stating that hypertrophy doesn't occur in a powerlifter is just plain incorrect.  Any PL has a back that will smoke a bodybuilder on a stage.

and that's because the growth isn't all about reps and sets. It's about isometric contraction.

In one year of PL I went from 220's to as high as 287.

I train with veteran PL at my gym. I have asked them. Longevity is certainly possible.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> I disagree if that was the case all powerlifters would look like bodybuilders and they don't.... And all bodybuilders would be as strong as powerlifters and there not, both are not true I believe strength can increase size you must do appropriate number of reps and sets to create hypertrophy., in addition I see some guys in the he gym as much as me regardless of drugs they are smaller so explain how you get bigger doing less reps and or sets?  not the rule of thumb..
> In reality I watch pros like Milo sarcev and I think shit I have been under training compared to these guys, 2-3 hours in the gym I guarantee you they were not doing 1-5 reps maxing out about 30 mins and they would be done....and getting large the whole time sounds like some craps so of the magazines puke out... 20 years of lifting tell me that not the case ....
> 
> Additionally lifting this heavy and maxing out leads to injuries period ...
> Not to mention tendinitis and sore joints buddy we are not 21 anymore and if you plan on staying in the game need to learn some rules ask some vets if they max out... :/



You obviously know very little about training outside of what you personally do in the gym. Blanket statements like this are retarded. I'd suggest educating yourself further before spreading false information again.


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## 57muscle (Sep 8, 2014)

Did not know such a post would cause so much animosity...The best approach IMO is not an either/or but a both/and. The greatest bodybuilders utilize power-lifting techniques in their training as much as power-lifters use some bodybuilding techniques...I have been both and done both. Arnold's training was at one time  a descending set method of sets and reps with rep range going from 12-10-7-5-3-1-1 as the load increased. This was my first example of how to train 30 years ago and I still use it today. Power-lifting gyms produce the best bodybuilders but care in training must be used to avoid injury...I have torn both calves, a distel tendon in my right bicep, part of my trap on the right side and have gone through shoulder surgery and a partial disc removal in my lower back...Most of the various training techniques are not written in stone and one need to learn what he or she can or cannot do and find the best way to the results one is looking for...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 8, 2014)

57muscle said:


> Did not know such a post would cause so much animosity...The best approach IMO is not an either/or but a both/and. The greatest bodybuilders utilize power-lifting techniques in their training as much as power-lifters use some bodybuilding techniques...I have been both and done both. Arnold's training was at one time  a descending set method of sets and reps with rep range going from 12-10-7-5-3-1-1 as the load increased. This was my first example of how to train 30 years ago and I still use it today. Power-lifting gyms produce the best bodybuilders but care in training must be used to avoid injury...I have torn both calves, a distel tendon in my right bicep, part of my trap on the right side and have gone through shoulder surgery and a partial disc removal in my lower back...Most of the various training techniques are not written in stone and one need to learn what he or she can or cannot do and find the best way to the results one is looking for...



I beleive you're mistaking animosity with trying to stop the spread of typical bodybuilding MYTHS (aka fairytales).....


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## DieYoungStrong (Sep 8, 2014)

I agree with the powerlifters in here, not just because I am one, but because I used to fancy myself a "bodybuilder" back in the day. I grew more when I got back to compounds.

I see a group of young Zyzz wanna-be's in my gym. They've been there for 3 years, bragging about their GH and cycles. They do all high-rep, pump bullshit. They look the same as they did 3 years ago. Granted, much more then training is in play - diet, etc. I'm a firm believer that high reps are useless without a solid foundation based on strength.


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## Anabolic Reality (Sep 8, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> I agree with the powerlifters in here, not just because I am one, but because I used to fancy myself a "bodybuilder" back in the day. I grew more when I got back to compounds.
> 
> I see a group of young Zyzz wanna-be's in my gym. They've been there for 3 years, bragging about their GH and cycles. They do all high-rep, pump bullshit. They look the same as they did 3 years ago. Granted, much more then training is in play - diet, etc. I'm a firm believer that high reps are useless without a solid foundation based on strength.



I do moderate reps like mentioned earlier (7-12 range) on everything. I'm 6"3 265 and strong as a horse so each to his own. I'm a bb'er no powerlifting background. Never do low reps but I lift pretty heavy in comparison to your wanna be's I'd imagine.  Everyone responds different to training otherwise we would all do the exact same things.


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## Anabolic Reality (Sep 8, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You obviously know very little about training outside of what you personally do in the gym. Blanket statements like this are retarded. I'd suggest educating yourself further before spreading false information again.



What would be funny is if he busted out a pick of himself and he was a tank. Never know......


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 8, 2014)

Anabolic Reality said:


> What would be funny is if he busted out a pick of himself and he was a tank. Never know......



He has posted up and he is jacked and lean as hell too. Looks god damn good for any age. But at his age it's pretty remarkable.


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## Anabolic Reality (Sep 8, 2014)

Must work for him then....


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 8, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> He has posted up and he is jacked and lean as hell too. Looks god damn good for any age. But at his age it's pretty remarkable.



Getm has not posted pics of himself. The OP has but they are two different members.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 8, 2014)

Anabolic Reality said:


> What would be funny is if he busted out a pick of himself and he was a tank. Never know......



Success can be had just as much in spite of what you do not because of it


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## PillarofBalance (Sep 8, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> Getm has not posted pics of himself. The OP has but they are two different members.



I need coffee. This hasn't been a good day.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Sep 8, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I need coffee. This hasn't been a good day.



I'm drinking some now


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## coltmc4545 (Sep 8, 2014)

I start out with heavy sets in the 4-6 rep range. Then I go to higher rep ranges for the same major muscle groups. I don't build much strength in high rep ranges but I seem to grow better. I do low reps to build strength. I stay in high rep ranges for smaller muscle groups because that's what my body responds to better. Bottom line is I don't care what scientific studies say. People need to find what they respond better too. RJ needs to speak up on this thread. He's competed in both BB and PL and did both on PL programs ONLY. When I was doing 5x5 I started looking what I thought to be sloppy. That's just me. Whatever works for you works for you but might not work for me. 

And getm please post a pic and stats since you come to our house and must have your pro card since you know this plethora of information and we are all wrong.


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## ken Sass (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> I disagree if that was the case all powerlifters would look like bodybuilders and they don't.... And all bodybuilders would be as strong as powerlifters and there not, both are not true I believe strength can increase size you must do appropriate number of reps and sets to create hypertrophy., in addition I see some guys in the he gym as much as me regardless of drugs they are smaller so explain how you get bigger doing less reps and or sets?  not the rule of thumb..
> In reality I watch pros like Milo sarcev and I think shit I have been under training compared to these guys, 2-3 hours in the gym I guarantee you they were not doing 1-5 reps maxing out about 30 mins and they would be done....and getting large the whole time sounds like some craps so of the magazines puke out... 20 years of lifting tell me that not the case ....
> 
> 
> ...



some powerlifters do, i don't think it is that easy to label us


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## ken Sass (Sep 8, 2014)

getm said:


> How old are you just asking its easier to gain size under 40.... Look at guys like Stallone juicing after 50 yes great vascularity and some density but he can't add size  no matter how muh juice or GH he does its called genetics and youth.. He was already busted in Australia airport for gear ....lol


???? may i respectfully say bullshit btw i am 54 and have put on good muscle (and some fat)


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## getm (Sep 8, 2014)

Cant post a pic but can tell you stats ... For some obvious source issues ... I'm 6' 235lbs about 12% bf over 40 and lifting over 20 years... So while I may agree most powerlifters have density again I think they are not as built as bodybuilders.. Dont have agree with my views cause if people had it all figured out we ALL be huge which again isn't the case... So now your gonna tell me  Stallone has real density right .... Not saying he's not cut and has some size but he's not even close to any ifbb pro size


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## snake (Sep 8, 2014)

Getm,
With your stats, at your age and experience you should know they have different goals. You should also know how those goals are achieved. Plus BB's don't look like that all the time.


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## 57muscle (Sep 9, 2014)

All I can say is it works for me...


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## snake (Sep 9, 2014)

57muscle said:


> All I can say is it works for me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



57 Y.O. freaks of nature are not allowed to vote. Hell, anything would work for you. I bet you get a pump just paging through a Muscle Mag. lol!


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## deadlift666 (Sep 9, 2014)

snake said:


> Getm,
> With your stats, at your age and experience you should know they have different goals. You should also know how those goals are achieved. Plus BB's don't look like that all the time.



Right. Not everyone wants to be 275lbs and 8%bf. Besides stallone has never really been a huge dude, compared to bodybuilders.


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## Get Some (Sep 9, 2014)

I am a firm believer in switching things up... my "normal" routine is around 8-10 reps per set for 1 warm up set and then 3 full sets. I will run a full 4 week course of the 5x5 program at least once per year to make sure I am making those extra strength gains. IN addition, if I feel I'm lacking in endurance or I'm suffering from what I call "muscle indifference" I'll add a few more reps OR I'll increase the set number from 3 to 5. 

Also, new for me this year is the addition of the 10x10 or GVT. I've done this before but going back to it after I realized that this gave me the best gains of my life. 10 sets of 10 reps with the same weight, one exercise per bodypart. It's easy for the first few sets, but if you're not dying after the 7th set then you didn't choose the right weight. Conversely, if you're dying on the 3rd set, you have too much weight. Each workout I'm going to switch exercises for each body part, always utilizing compound movements like bench, deads, squats, etc. I'll do 2 weeks all compound and then the next 2 weeks add in accessory work for arms, calves, shoulders, etc. 

So overall this year my plan is to utilize the 10x10 and 5x5 for 12 week intervals. 8 weeks of 10x10 followed by 4 weeks of 5x5. I think this will really help me increase my overall strength, endurance, and physique because I believe it is the best combination. I do not wish to be as big as I once was and would like to maintain around 230-240 lbs at 10-12% BF. For someone like POB, who wishes to compete in PLing and stay as strong as possible, I still think this program could work, but it may not be as effective as lifting heavier weight throughout the year... although I'd be interested to hear feedback on specifically powerlifters who switch up routines throughout the year!


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## Ascastlat (Oct 3, 2014)

Muscles that are inherently fast-twitch respond best to more sets. Muscles that are inherently slow-twitch respond best to fewer sets.


That's incorrect, fast to fatigue muscle fibers actually require less sets/total volume/ and greater overall recovery, and slow to fatigue require require more..they can also not tolerate very intense training...women tend to be mostly slow twitch.
One also needs to consider the time under load and not just reps per set, as the above guidelines do not take into account varying rep cadences which effects the outcome...


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## thisisfromwork (Oct 7, 2014)

okay, after reading through the thread I like to ask you guys this:

So is it okay to not really spend 2 hours+ lifting?  Because I've been doing 3x4 starting from 80lbs all the way up to 120lbs and am able to finish within an hour. Haven't bought additional plates yet so I can't really go beyond 120. Am 25 and at 120lbs. Hoping to get some advise as well on how to do this.


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## PillarofBalance (Oct 7, 2014)

thisisfromwork said:


> okay, after reading through the thread I like to ask you guys this:
> 
> So is it okay to not really spend 2 hours+ lifting?  Because I've been doing 3x4 starting from 80lbs all the way up to 120lbs and am able to finish within an hour. Haven't bought additional plates yet so I can't really go beyond 120. Am 25 and at 120lbs. Hoping to get some advise as well on how to do this.


Depends on how many days you train and what you are doing. If you spend 2 hours training biceps and triceps that's probably too much. If you train 5 times per week or more for 2 hours at a time that is probably a bit much.

If you weigh 120 and assuming you are trying to get bigger you need to be training heavy with short minute rests and get out fast. The majority of your time and effort should be on getting adequate calories and rest.

It took me years to learn such a simple thing. I made it to 225lbs but struggled. I trained six days per week for around 1 to 1.5 hours at a time. When I cut back to 3 days of training and focused on heavy squats bench and deadlift my weight shot up 25 pounds in a few months.


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## thisisfromwork (Oct 8, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Depends on how many days you train and what you are doing. If you spend 2 hours training biceps and triceps that's probably too much. If you train 5 times per week or more for 2 hours at a time that is probably a bit much.
> 
> If you weigh 120 and assuming you are trying to get bigger you need to be training heavy with short minute rests and get out fast. The majority of your time and effort should be on getting adequate calories and rest.
> 
> It took me years to learn such a simple thing. I made it to 225lbs but struggled. I trained six days per week for around 1 to 1.5 hours at a time. When I cut back to 3 days of training and focused on heavy squats bench and deadlift my weight shot up 25 pounds in a few months.




Oh okay. Currently, I go for 4 days in a week. Sat/Sun/Mon/Wed (Chest/Shoulders/Legs/Back) then rest at Tues/Thurs/Fri. Yes I train heavy with minimal rest in between sets so I tend to finish in an hour or so. Should I stick to that or should I change the routine in terms of adding more reps/sets.


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## italian1 (Oct 8, 2014)

I hate to throw a monkey wrench in all of this and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side. I also switch things up. But I believe the original statement was about making muscle gains. For any power lifter to say they went from 220 to 287 in a year and think that they can consider that gains is just straight bullshit. Id be surprised if 15-20 lbs of that were actually muscle. And that's the gains we all should be talking about. Doesn't matter PL or BB gaining muscle is what were all after. Gaining 50 lbs of fat just to brag about how much you gained in lbs is just not accurate info.


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