# 28 yr old with 530ng/dl test levels. Will i benefit from trt?



## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

So this may be long but I'm not really sure where to start so forgive me if this is a bit long. 
  I was prescribed adhd meds since I was 10 years old. Fast forward to when I was in my 20s I've tried getting off of them for fear of health implications on constantly living on adrenaline just to function. After trying to quit for a couple years my life fell apart. Became an alcoholic. Gained 50lbs lost my gf of 5 years. Barely hanging onto my job... decided I'd rather die early and live life then to live long and be pathetic. 
.   Since going back on my drugs life is great again. Lost 50lbs. Got back into lifting started running. Finally feel alive again since last march, I feel healthier physically and mentally. Only thing is with my job.

I travel for welding / metal construction in quarries and mines.. I wake up at 3:30 am to drive out of town most mornings. I work sun up to sun down. I basically live in hotels and I sleep on a buddies couch on the weekends. (No reason to get a house if I'm on the road 80% of the time lol rather stack money for my future) And when I'm not working I'm driving. And then trying to cram in a gym session forces me to run on limited sleep. Which in turn requires more stimulants to power through the next day. 

   Now the reason I mention all this Is because although the stimulants have helped change my life I still feel like there is a peice of the puzzle that is missing. I look at other people and they seem to have more joy. The guys at work have more pride in their work. They seem to have more spring in their step. It's just subtle. But I pick up on it. 
Although I go to the gym when I am able to it's such a fucking bitch to grind through a workout after a long day. And when I do it hinders my work the next day since I have a physical labor job. I understand it takes hard work and dedication but damn. Although I've lost weight I've seem to just hit this wall now I'm bouncing between 190-200lbs. I have a 4 pack. And a couple Arm veins that pop out when working out. Lol I have a pouch with a handful of fat and stretched out skin on my lower belly. I veiw myself of "kinda fit kinda fat" but nothing that will ever turn heads or gain any kind of respect. And that's me working hard for my current physique with stimulants on top lol. 

My sex drive oddly enough is weird. It was great when I was 250lbs drinking Alcohol and never exercising. But I've noticed it's way worse even though I'm in better shape. 

Now if I'm being honest it's probably mostly life style. I most likely don't get enough sleep and rest. My diet COULD be better.. I'm sure my training isn't 100% but with my career and constant brain fog I don't really see it getting any better then what it is. Either I get 5 hours of sleep and train. Or I don't train and I can get 7 hours of sleep at best. 

My point is I'm wondering if maybe testosterone will allow me to be more efficient with my schedule allowing me to "do it all" make better choices. Plan better. Give me the little edge to tie up the loose ends in daily life to MAKE more time in my day. Get shit done faster. More efficiently You know what I mean? I've read about how some people need much less sleep and feel great on 5 hours vs 8 prior to trt. They can train Harder so they don't have to train as often (which would be amazing for my schedule) and still get results. Or not have to stress so much about counting calories because they're burning so much off. 

 I've genuinely tried everything I can naturally to better myself before getting to this point. 

Anyways moving forward. Went and got my bloodwork.
- My total test is 530ng/dl 
- free T is 11.81 ng/dl
-E2 is 38 pg/ml
-igf1 215 ng/ml
-prolactin 6.3ng/ml
-cortisol 15.9 ug/dl
And more results provided upon request if interested..

I kinda feel like an old man for only being 28. But I don't feel absolutely horrible either since backing off a bit training so hard. I noticed I got. Little more sex drive back. I feel like I can't push as hard as I want to without running my self into the ground. In other words consistency is a bitch.

Anyways I went to a clinic and was going to get trt because all the symptoms of low t matched what I was feeling. But I'm shocked my t is 530ng/dl. I'm actually kind of upset. Becasue I thought maybe this is the reason I don't feel right. Maybe the years of amphetamines. My past alcohol abuse. Etc have ruined my hormone production causing all my problems. 

The Dr. Told me he wants to see me at 800 t levels  for my age.. Gave me a vial of testosterone cypionate with anastrozle compounded with it. That was a giant red flag. Told him absolutely not and he said "don't worry it's already calculated" I demanded test only without the ai. 

He gave it to me charged 400 fucking dollars and sent me out the door. 

So now I'm sitting here staring at this overpriced bottle of 10ml 200mg/ml testosterone cyp wondering if It will infact improve my life at all and if maybe this is the edge I've been looking for to fill the void In my life of finding excellence and crushing goals and being the man I've allways Dreamed of. Give me the push to excel in my career. MAKE time to go to the gym. Sleep hard. Fuck hard.. play hard.. etc
Or will I just destroy my natural production and be a slave to the needle for absolutely zero benefits. 🤔 

The Dr at this clinic really made me second guess it. I trusted him because his physique is insane. He's 51 and looks 30. I was happy because I thought "damn he can help me crack the code." I guess looks aren't everything despite wanting to believe it. Lol and it made me realize that maybe I'm wanting to belive trt will help me more then it really will..   when he threw all this bullshit misinformation at me it scares me. Which I'm glad. Because it's a big decision. But I just hear so much good stuff about trt. But now I wonder if any of this is worth it. Sure getting dialed in will suck. And I'm not worried about money (I'll just go ugl once dialed in) or having to pin myself. As long as it will really help open up doors in life. I don't want to keep spinning my wheels and treading water. 

Do you guys think I would benefit from trt even with 530ng/dl natural test levels? What are your experiences? Anyone start with similar levels? 

I can post pictures or answer any other details or questions you guys might have. I just want opinions from people who actually know what they are doing and been through both sides. 

I'm on a razor edge right now of just impulsively injecting it and telling myself to hold on a little longer. Get another blood test. Wait for more answers. Ask for advice. But I also feel like no one understands what I'm going through either. But I'm trying not to think with emotions. 

Reasons I'm thinking it might help. I've read that even though 500 t levels aren't bad. Maybe it's not optimal for ME. Maybe my body needs more to feel sharp. 
Another reason maybe it'll help with confidence, decision making skills, focus. And help me less dependent on amphetamines since testosterone has a dopeminergic effect.
Weight loss and muscle benefits
And improve sleep and lesson fatigue. 
 And if my levels will only get worse from here on out why not start now? Get dialed in and enjoy the last couple years of my 20s since I'm almost 30. 
I'd love to leap out of bed again. I'd love to have sex without feeling like it's work. The list goes on lol

Help me out. The door is open. Should I walk through it?


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## Send0 (Nov 20, 2022)

1. Adrenal fatigue is a myth

2. You are correct, the issue is your life style. Improve your lifestyle issues (sleep, diet, exercise); and you will see an improvement in energy levels and other places.

3. At 530ng/dL I'm surprised your doctor prescribed you TRT. Most people function fine at those levels.

4. TRT won't fix your issues with "amphetamines" / ADHD, if you genuinely need it then you will always feel run down and even more off than you currently do. I have ADHD and have come off several times... it's not worth it to me.  However I have been able to cut my dosage in half without feeling like shit. 

5. If you want to take testosterone, then just take it. You're an adult and can make your own decisions without being judged for it.


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## CJ (Nov 20, 2022)

You need sleep, not TRT.

The "Dr" at the clinic is more like a salesman. He's simply trying to get you on the drug, which you'll need forever if you're on it for awhile. Boom, long term customer.

Don't train for a week, get a lot of sleep, see how better you'll feel.

Btw... There's no AI calculation. We all have different needs, I need no AI for example. He's just a salesman


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## buck (Nov 20, 2022)

I doubt the test will do much to better your life. Start by changing the basics to have a healthy life. What are your goals for the future. You are banking money but what for. Many of the guys you work with may have a family that they support and look forward to providing for and being with. Having muscle and money is not guaranteed to make for a happier life. Living life seems to work better.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

CJ said:


> You need sleep, not TRT.
> 
> The "Dr" at the clinic is more like a salesman. He's simply trying to get you on the drug, which you'll need forever if you're on it for awhile. Boom, long term customer.
> 
> ...


Yes this is what occurred to me. He sounded like a fucking idiot. Which is why I'm re thinking this. I would have no problem taking testosterone I just don't want to take it just to feel the same as I do now which is my main question. If it will improve my life I'll do it. If not I guess I'll have a 400 dollar paperweight sitting around 😂


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## CJ (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> Yes this is what occurred to me. He sounded like a fucking idiot. Which is why I'm re thinking this. I would have no problem taking testosterone I just don't want to take it just to feel the same as I do now which is my main question. If it will improve my life I'll do it. If not I guess I'll have a 400 dollar paperweight sitting around 😂


$400 is retarded. A vial at CVS is probably $50 or less


It's why I quit my clinic. I wasn't a patient, I was a revenue stream


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

buck said:


> I doubt the test will do much to better your life. Start by changing the basics to have a healthy life. What are your goals for the future. You are banking money but what for. Many of the guys you work with may have a family that they support and look forward to providing for and being with. Having muscle and money is not guaranteed to make for a happier life. Living life seems to work better.


So your saying if I take my 500 natty test levels and double that shit to 1,000ng with trt that won't make me double the man? Forgive me this is not how this works. I'm genuinely asking because in my head I'm think that equates to double the progress. Recovery, etc..


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## CJ (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> So your saying if I take my 500 natty test levels and double that shit to 1,000ng with trt that won't make me double the man? Forgive me this is not how this works. I'm genuinely asking because in my head I'm think that equates to double the progress. Recovery, etc..


No, that's not how it works. You want to double your progress and recovery.... SLEEP is the answer.


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## buck (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> So your saying if I take my 500 natty test levels and double that shit to 1,000ng with trt that won't make me double the man? Forgive me this is not how this works. I'm genuinely asking because in my head I'm think that equates to double the progress. Recovery, etc..


I never said anything like that you need to reread the post.
I have been on TRT for over 20 years i have a good idea on how it works.
For one thing that 500 your body is making will most likely stop once you take T from an outside source. So the test you are taking will need to replace that as well as raise it higher to get the results you are looking for. My post was about your life style and the amount of discontentment you say you are having from various sources.


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> So your saying if I take my 500 natty test levels and double that shit to 1,000ng with trt that won't make me double the man? Forgive me this is not how this works. I'm genuinely asking because in my head I'm think that equates to double the progress. Recovery, etc..


When you introduce exogenous testosterone, your body slowly begins to stop producing endogenous test.

What was the range for your free T. Free T is more important than total T, however neither will help without proper rest, dieting, and exercise.


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Think about it, if you simply tack on 500mg and it didn't blunt your natural T, why would you run need to run PCT when you drop off the amount you were blasting?

PCT is an attempt to restart your HPTA/HPGA. You shut down those pathways/natty production when introduce exogenous T.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

buck said:


> I never said anything like that you need to reread the post.
> I have been on TRT for over 20 years i have a good idea on how it works.
> For one thing that 500 your body is making will most likely stop once you take T from an outside source. So the test you are taking will need to replace that as well as raise it higher to get the results you are looking for. My post was about your life style and the amount of discontentment you say you are having from various sources.


I understand I'm gonna shut myself down with trt. That's the thing lol. Since I can't get optimal sleep due to work schedule and time. I'm looking to optimize my levels. If I shut my balls down and inject X amount of test to double my testosterone levels. The question is will I notice a difference? Will going from 500 naturally to 800-1000 yield me better results with energy. Performance. Manliness etc. Lol. And if so how much of a difference?


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> When you introduce exogenous testosterone, your body slowly begins to stop producing endogenous test.
> 
> What was the range for your free T. Free T is more important than total T, however neither will help without proper rest, dieting, and exercise.


My free T was 11.81ng/dl
Which I guess is also kinda middle range. 
 And yeah don't get me wrong I do sleep. But my room for error is very fucking strict. One small slip up and I'm worthless for the next 3 days lol. Or I miss a training session because I'm too tired. Lol


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> Think about it, if you simply tack on 500mg and it didn't blunt your natural T, why would you run need to run PCT when you drop off the amount you were blasting?
> 
> PCT is an attempt to restart your HPTA/HPGA. You shut down those pathways/natty production when introduce exogenous T.


No I'm not expecting to come off. I know trt is not a cycle lol. I'm trying to decide if shutting down my natural production in exchange for potentially doubling my testosterone would yield noticeable and worthwhile changes that would make it worth it to do so. Plus then I could blast here and there which would be sweet. But if going from 500ng/dl to 800-1000 won't give me any noticeable difference in my mindset, energy, focus, drive, libido, and performance/physique (granted training and eating right) then I would obviously decide against it ya know?


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## Jonjon (Nov 20, 2022)

My vote is clean up your life and get good sleep. Eat clean and make gains.

Then, 5 or 10 years down the road, get on trt and enjoy what it has to offer.

But numbers don’t always reflect what’s really going on. I’d try what I mentioned first but wouldn’t hesitate to get on test if that didn’t work

I brought my natural levels from 200 something to 480 in my mid 30s just by saying goodbye to alcohol, soft drinks, and started lifting and eating like a bodybuilder. ( still ended up on trt but have no regrets)


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> I understand I'm gonna shut myself down with trt. That's the thing lol. Since I can't get optimal sleep due to work schedule and time. I'm looking to optimize my levels. If I shut my balls down and inject X amount of test to double my testosterone levels. The question is will I notice a difference? Will going from 500 naturally to 800-1000 yield me better results with energy. Performance. Manliness etc. Lol. And if so how much of a difference?


If you inject the amount required to hit 800+ ng/dL, you should feel more energetic provided the following conditions are met:

1).You eat and sleep properly.
2). You aren't a heavy aromatizer. You'll need to monitor this with lab work to see if you require an aromatase inhibitor. Personally, I would focus on keeping my free T at the upper end of the range
3). You don't have a high SHBG level.
4). You monitor your CBC to make sure you're not pushing part a high HCT level...that will tend to make you feel tired


Also, you never answered my question about the range for your free T level. Yours looks low. Mine is almost 2.5 times higher than that on ~150mg/week of pharma cyp.

You can have an outstanding Total T level but if a good bit of it is lost to aromatization it's not making it to your free T levels. If you have a high SHBG, then that will bind more of your free T which means it isn't available for your body to use.

I really don't know your knowledge level, but don't just go slamming 500 mg/ week of testosterone/ week and think that is the same as increasing your total T by 500ng/dL.

Example......On 150 mg/week (2 injections of 75 mg, one on Wednesday and one on Saturday), my Total T is 1448 ng/dL the morning after an injection. On my trough day ( the day before my next injection), I'm in the low 700s.

Not to be insulting, buy it sounds like you need to do more research and get complete lab work. You need SHBG plus what you already have to get a good overview and make sure to post reference ranges.

On a positive note, your IGF-1 is pretty good. I'm 58 and my normal is 230-ish. When I supplement with 1.8iu of pharma GH, I'm generally in the low 400s.

One more thing, stay clear of having an aromatase inhibitor compounded in with your T. If you need to make a dosage of your test dosage or your a.i. dosage, you can't separate the two. For example, some places like Royal Medical compound in anastrozole at the ratio of 1 mg anastrozole for every 200mg of testosterone.....that's a boatload for most people. Seriously, it's a lot.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

CJ said:


> No, that's not how it works. You want to double your progress and recovery.... SLEEP is the answer.





Jonjon said:


> My vote is clean up your life and get good sleep. Eat clean and make gains.
> 
> Then, 5 or 10 years down the road, get on trt and enjoy what it has to offer.
> 
> ...


Damn really? Thats a big jump. But yeah I'm kinda thinking I'm going to hold off for a little bit longer. I am only 28. I can allways hop on later if I want to but going back isn't gonna be a walk in the park lol. It's just constantly on the back of my mind. But I want to get a few more blood tests to really get a better idea of where I'm at. I do appreciate it! 🙏


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## eazy (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> will I notice a difference? Will going from 500 naturally to 800-1000 yield me better results with energy. Performance. Manliness


nope.



Angryshitter said:


> if so how much of a difference?


your metrics can't be quantified. "manliness" for example. 



Angryshitter said:


> Plus then I could blast here and there which would be sweet.


your mind is made up. stop answer shopping and put your plan in motion


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> My free T was 11.81ng/dl
> Which I guess is also kinda middle range.
> And yeah don't get me wrong I do sleep. But my room for error is very fucking strict. One small slip up and I'm worthless for the next 3 days lol. Or I miss a training session because I'm too tired. Lol


Yes, I know the value, but you need to provide the reference range. That value means nothing without the reference range.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> If you inject the amount required to hit 800+ ng/dL, you should feel more energetic provided the following conditions are met:
> 
> 1).You eat and sleep properly.
> 2). You aren't a heavy aromatizer. You'll need to monitor this with lab work to see if you require an aromatase inhibitor. Personally, I would focus on keeping my free T at the upper end of the range
> ...


Dude you rock. But I did get a long list of shit tested despite my clinic giving me a shitty blood work panel I went out and got my own instead. And spent the extra money. I'll try and attach it . 
  You have me curious about the cbc. To be honest I don't know shit about cbc. So please enlighten me. Take a look at my bloods and see what you think. All the reference ranges are in there. 

And no trust me I would NEVER start off injecting 500mg a week. Maybe for a cycle but I don't think I'd last too long pushing that kind of dosage for HRT 😂


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

Bloodwork


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

eazy said:


> nope.
> 
> 
> your metrics can't be quantified. "manliness" for example.
> ...


You are false my mind is not made up. I am grateful for the feedback. Am I disappointed that injecting testosterone won't give me what I'm searching for? Absolutely. Am I going to do it being told it won't change a damn thing? Probably not. So no my mind isn't just made up. I have alot to think about. Thanks to you and everyone taking the time to respond and guide me thank you all


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> If you inject the amount required to hit 800+ ng/dL, you should feel more energetic provided the following conditions are met:
> 
> 1).You eat and sleep properly.
> 2). You aren't a heavy aromatizer. You'll need to monitor this with lab work to see if you require an aromatase inhibitor. Personally, I would focus on keeping my free T at the upper end of the range
> ...


Bloodwork


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

There's nothing really complicated about a CBC? It's simply a complete blood count that breaks down your blood into all of its individual components.....RBC, RDW, WBC, Hct( hematocrit), Hgb ( hemoglobin), mean corpuscular volume, immature cells, etc. 

Add that to your things to research. Also how to interpret your CMP-14.If you actually get into a proper TRT program or learn to manage your own, you WILL learn a lot.


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## eazy (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> You are false my mind is not made up. I am grateful for the feedback. Am I disappointed that injecting testosterone won't give me what I'm searching for? Absolutely. Am I going to do it being told it won't change a damn thing? Probably not. So no my mind isn't just made up. I have alot to think about. Thanks to you and everyone taking the time to respond and guide me thank you all


Forgive me. 

Good luck.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> There's nothing really complicated about a CBC? It's simply a complete blood count that breaks down your blood into all of its individual components.....RBC, RDW, WBC, Hct( hematocrit), Hgb ( hemoglobin), mean corpuscular volume, immature cells, etc.
> 
> Add that to your things to research. Also how to interpret your CMP-14.If you actually get into a proper TRT program or learn to manage your own, you WILL learn a lot.


I definitely will look into these things. You mind taking a look at my bloodwork and telling me what you think? Or any areas I should dive into with what you see? I posted screenshots for you. I really appreciate it man your a huge help. I think I'm probably gonna hold off on the testosterone


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

eazy said:


> Forgive me.
> 
> Good luck.


No problem man. Thank you again. You guys are helping big time. I'll have more post in the future asking help with more dumb questions so stay tuned 😂😂


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> Bloodwork


Ok, I'm skimming it now, but your lipids suck to be honest . This is probably tied to your liver enzymes which are horrible as well. If you drink frequently.....stop. If you take a lot of OTC meds, stims, or other meds that aren't maintenance meds...start tapering down and get off of them.

Add in some Vitamin D, your PSA is good, your E2 is a tad high, but not at an unheard of level. Iron panel is good, and your C-reactive protein is surprisingly good given your lipids and liver enzymes. Really focus on lowering those lipids and keep the C- reactive where you have it.


I would really focus on a clean diet, drinking water whenever thirsty, and get some cardio going. You can pretty much do cardio anywhere. I know it's tough, I work rolling 12 hour shifts with an additional 2.5 hours commute time. You just have to do it when you can fit it in or on your days off.

Not a clue about your WBC and platelet count. I was thinking they drew for platelets into a vacutainer w/ heparin, maybe I'm wrong.
Have you donated platelets recently?

I know I said it before but really focus on your diet to see how much you can correct your liver enzymes and lipids.

I would *absolutely* run a snot sucker/vacuum when stick welding or if TIG welding stainless or using thoriated tungsten. They've been guessing for the last 30 years how bad that shit is for us to be breathing while running a bead.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> Ok, I'm skimming it now, but your lipids suck to be honest . This is probably tied to your liver enzymes which are horrible as well. If you drink frequently.....stop. If you take a lot of OTC meds, stims, or other meds that aren't maintenance meds...start tapering down and get off of them.
> 
> Add in some Vitamin D, your PSA is good, your E2 is a tad high, but not at an unheard of level.
> 
> ...


I actually never donated blood in yearrrrrss. But yes I definitely do my fair share of amphetamines to get through the day. so maybe that has to do with the enzymes being high. My diet isn't so bad BUT it isn't PERFECT so I guess I need to try harder plain and simple lol. Got It!!! 
I need amphetamines so I'll just have to make up for it with diet. 

I recently added vitamin D haven't really noticed any difference though yet. 

And I don't really do any tig welding. Mainly stick welding on rusty old pipe burning through old paint and oil in quarries which I guess is not much better. It's shitt work. But you know how it is.  

As for the trt I guess I'll put this beautiful little vial to the side and focus on lifestyle. I was really excited though 😪 because then I could blast and cruise and have fun experimenting. But if I have good natural levels I guess I'll take the warning and not fuck with things. Lol I'm still going to get bloodwork and keep an eye on it to see how my overall health is progressing. 

Thank you again dude.


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> I actually never donated blood in yearrrrrss. But yes I definitely do my fair share of amphetamines to get through the day. so maybe that has to do with the enzymes being high. My diet isn't so bad BUT it isn't PERFECT so I guess I need to try harder plain and simple lol. Got It!!!
> I need amphetamines so I'll just have to make up for it with diet.
> 
> I recently added vitamin D haven't really noticed any difference though yet.
> ...


I hope I helped, but really try to wean off of the stims. If you've been on them a while, make it a goal to cut the amount by half, get used to that, cut the amount again, lather, rinse, and repeat.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> I hope I helped, but really try to wean off of the stims. If you've been on them a while, make it a goal to cut the amount by half, get used to that, cut the amount again, lather, rinse, and repeat.


Yeah I've cut down by half. I'm also cutting nicotine down. Trying to cut out the extra bullshit. Only thing with amphetamines is the lower I go the harder it is to not binge eat, drink, or fall off my exercise. So it's a delicate process. Will most likely take years. But I'm getting there 🤘. 
But yeah dude you've done more then you know. I'm natty another day thanks to you


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## Send0 (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> I hope I helped, but really try to wean off of the stims. If you've been on them a while, make it a goal to cut the amount by half, get used to that, cut the amount again, lather, rinse, and repeat.


If someone has legit ADHD, telling them to get off the medication is not necessarily good advice. ADHD is much more than an inability to focus _(it actually has very little to do with focus contrary to popular belief). _Most people misunderstand what ADHD is entirely. There are things that can't be fixed, because of a lack of, or deficiency, of certain neuro chemicals produced.

Going off meds can lead to other reward seeking or risky behaviors; this is just one aspect. It doesn't get better over time either if someone genuinely has ADHD.

There are other aspects, such as impact to social navigation and relationships, that I won't get into.

I'm sure @Angryshitter understands some of the things I'm eluding to... especially if he was diagnosed by a specialist.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 20, 2022)

Send0 said:


> If someone has legit ADHD, telling them to get off the medication is not necessarily good advice. ADHD is much more than an inability to focus _(it actually has very little to do with focus contrary to popular belief). _Most people misunderstand what ADHD is entirely. There are things that can't be fixed, because of a lack of, or deficiency, of certain neuro chemicals produced.
> 
> Going off meds can lead to other reward seeking or risky behaviors; this is just one aspect. It doesn't get better over time either if someone genuinely has ADHD.
> 
> ...


Yea the lower I go on my meds the more I drink alcohol and binge eat because I crave the dopamine that I'm lacking when I lower my dose even with a slow taper. If I cold turkey  I will eat. Puke and then eat some more. I can't even function or think. It's trt but with dopamine. I got fucked since I was child. It sucks because there's really not much information out there about my situation despite what people think. I really hoping trt would help but apparently from what the guys here are saying it's the wrong answer. 😕  I've lowered my dose on amphetamines but it has effected my quality of life. My Performance my diet. My work ethic. Everything. I have to force myself through each and every day. It's hell. About to up my dose once I can't take feeling like shit anymore lol


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## Send0 (Nov 20, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> Yea the lower I go on my meds the more I drink alcohol and binge eat because I crave the dopamine that I'm lacking when I lower my dose even with a slow taper. If I cold turkey  I will eat. Puke and then eat some more. I can't even function or think. It's trt but with dopamine. I got fucked since I was child. It sucks because there's really not much information out there about my situation despite what people think. I really hoping trt would help but apparently from what the guys here are saying it's the wrong answer. 😕  I've lowered my dose on amphetamines but it has effected my quality of life. My Performance my diet. My work ethic. Everything. I have to force myself through each and every day. It's hell. About to up my dose once I can't take feeling like shit anymore lol


I was fortunate and was able to halve my dose; if anything I think I function better at the lower dose... but not everyone can do that.

Just like how some kids outgrow ADHD as they enter adulthood and others don't. It's just luck of the draw.

One thing I can definitively say is that if dropping the medication effects your quality of life, then removing it is not worth any benefit it might return.

Good luck man.


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Send0 said:


> If someone has legit ADHD, telling them to get off the medication is not necessarily good advice. ADHD is much more than an inability to focus _(it actually has very little to do with focus contrary to popular belief). _Most people misunderstand what ADHD is entirely. There are things that can't be fixed, because of a lack of, or deficiency, of certain neuro chemicals produced.
> 
> Going off meds can lead to other reward seeking or risky behaviors; this is just one aspect. It doesn't get better over time either if someone genuinely has ADHD.
> 
> ...


I wasn't suggesting the ditch his meds, but to taper them, of course keeping his PCP in the loop. He's been on ADHD meds since he was 10. It's a well documented fact that by their mid to late 20s ~ 60% of those diagnosed with ADHD have greatly reduced or are totally free from the effects. Look where that leaves them....requiring stims but not really needing them. I would never suggest that anyone go off of their prescribed meds without keeping their treatment team in the loop.

 Having 2 ADHD relatives, you learn a lot and you see what happens with too much medication. The condition is often misdiagnosed and treated with an overaggressive treatment plan.

Is it a real treatable condition? Absolutely. Is it often misdiagnosed or treated overaggressively? Yep


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## Send0 (Nov 20, 2022)

almostgone said:


> I wasn't suggesting the ditch his meds, but to taper them, of course keeping his PCP in the loop. He's been on ADHD meds since he was 10. It's a well documented fact that by their mid to late 20s ~ 60% of those diagnosed with ADHD have greatly reduced or are totally free from the effects. Look where that leaves them....requiring stims but not really needing them. I would never suggest that anyone go off of their prescribed meds without keeping their treatment team in the loop.
> 
> Having 2 ADHD relatives, you learn a lot. The condition bis often misdiagnosed and treated with an overaggressive treatment team.


Having ADHD myself, I have experienced a lot of this first hand. 

Like you said, 60% diagnosed "outgrow" it. There's still a whopping 40% that never "outgrow" ADHD or that they don't have complete data on. 

For those that had their ADHD magically go away, then I'm happy for them. Although I suspect that most people who had their ADHD magically disappear were probably misdiagnosed to begin with. For the remainder of us, medication helps with far more than what people realize.

I agree with you in that I do think that it's misdiagnosed most of the time.


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## almostgone (Nov 20, 2022)

Send0 said:


> Having ADHD myself, I have experienced a lot of this first hand.
> 
> Like you said, 60% diagnosed "outgrow" it. There's still a whopping 40% that never "outgrow" ADHD or that they don't have complete data on.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with you. I think we both present valid sides of the same argument.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 21, 2022)

almostgone said:


> I wasn't suggesting the ditch his meds, but to taper them, of course keeping his PCP in the loop. He's been on ADHD meds since he was 10. It's a well documented fact that by their mid to late 20s ~ 60% of those diagnosed with ADHD have greatly reduced or are totally free from the effects. Look where that leaves them....requiring stims but not really needing them. I would never suggest that anyone go off of their prescribed meds without keeping their treatment team in the loop.
> 
> Having 2 ADHD relatives, you learn a lot and you see what happens with too much medication. The condition is often misdiagnosed and treated with an overaggressive treatment plan.
> 
> Is it a real treatable condition? Absolutely. Is it often misdiagnosed or treated overaggressively? Yep


Yes I agree. I myself was overly medicated as a child they threw the max dosage for an adult at me as child and now I am basically dependent which sucks. Looking back if they had given me a quarter of the dose I would have been alot better off. But as a child I didn't have a voice. They just saw my grades were better so my parents were happy lol. I don't understand why doctors don't start people off on minimum dosages And SLOWLY titrate up. Especially for children going on long term treatment. I don't stand a chance ever fully coming off. Although I keep trying lol


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## buck (Nov 21, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> I understand I'm gonna shut myself down with trt. That's the thing lol. Since I can't get optimal sleep due to work schedule and time. I'm looking to optimize my levels. If I shut my balls down and inject X amount of test to double my testosterone levels. The question is will I notice a difference? Will going from 500 naturally to 800-1000 yield me better results with energy. Performance. Manliness etc. Lol. And if so how much of a difference?


I worked the graveyard shift for 15 years and changed sleep schedules drastically 2 times a week and was always in jet lag mode. And even on a large cycle i was tired. But always are healthy and got my  food in no matter what. Chew and swallow. I got my 6 hours of sleep using melatonin and maybe a 20 minute nap at lunch. So no i do not think raising your levels 300+ points it will make a big difference. Eating healthy which anyone can do at any time would make a bigger difference in my opinion. I have had low T pre TRT ate healthy and never got sick or missed a workout.


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## medulla oblongata (Nov 21, 2022)

I personally do not think that the difference between 500ng/dl to 800ng/dl Is worth chemically castrating yourself. I was on Testosterone replacement therapy along time ago and successfully came off of it. I would often experiment with different dosages and get blood tests afterwards to see where it put my testosterone levels, and what I found was the sweet spot was somewhere around 500 to 600 for symptom relief and maintaining healthy blood test results. 

Sometimes when you really want something you can make all these ideas up in your head and that life will become completely different if you take this one thing, convinced it will solve all your problems but in reality for you testosterone replacement therapy is not going to do that at the moment. You should dial in health, diet, sleep, and training to get the best results. It also sounds like your job could be the root of a lot of your issues maybe you should consider changing your line of work for some thing that would allow you to have more of a normal schedule so you can maintain your health easier.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 21, 2022)

buck said:


> I worked the graveyard shift for 15 years and changed sleep schedules drastically 2 times a week and was always in jet lag mode. And even on a large cycle i was tired. But always are healthy and got my  food in no matter what. Chew and swallow. I got my 6 hours of sleep using melatonin and maybe a 20 minute nap at lunch. So no i do not think raising your levels 300+ points it will make a big difference. Eating healthy which anyone can do at any time would make a bigger difference in my opinion. I have had low T pre TRT ate healthy and never got sick or missed a


Wow really? It's amazing howbthe feedback changes depending on which forum I'm on. I love hearing this kind of stuff though. We're you natural at any point during your 15 years of working like that? Or were you blasting and cruising the whole time? You don't think annabolics help give you the extra drive to ensure you never missed a workout? Either way thas still damn impressive


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## Angryshitter (Nov 21, 2022)

medulla oblongata said:


> I personally do not think that the difference between 500ng/dl to 800ng/dl Is worth chemically castrating yourself. I was on Testosterone replacement therapy along time ago and successfully came off of it. I would often experiment with different dosages and get blood tests afterwards to see where it put my testosterone levels, and what I found was the sweet spot was somewhere around 500 to 600 for symptom relief and maintaining healthy blood test results.
> 
> Sometimes when you really want something you can make all these ideas up in your head and that life will become completely different if you take this one thing, convinced it will solve all your problems but in reality for you testosterone replacement therapy is not going to do that at the moment. You should dial in health, diet, sleep, and training to get the best results. It also sounds like your job could be the root of a lot of your issues maybe you should consider changing your line of work for some thing that would allow you to have more of a normal schedule so you can maintain your health easier.


Yeah you're right. The lure of trt was really exciting for me because if I hop on trt then I might as well do a few blasts and then I could be in the "fast lane" so to speak. Life just feels so shitty so I was hoping for different answers to be honest. But honest feedback Is better then hearing what I want to hear I suppose. To be honest it's really hard to wrap my head around the fact that consistent testosterone levels wouldn't give me any noticeable benefits worthwhile. But then again I have a skewed veiw especially with lack of personal experience. It seems like the general vote around here is to stay away from anabolics or hrt. Thanks alot man I really appreciate it. I'll keep the bottle in the safe for now lol


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## CJ (Nov 21, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> Yeah you're right. The lure of trt was really exciting for me because if I hop on trt then I might as well do a few blasts and then I could be in the "fast lane" so to speak. Life just feels so shitty so I was hoping for different answers to be honest. But honest feedback Is better then hearing what I want to hear I suppose. To be honest it's really hard to wrap my head around the fact that consistent testosterone levels wouldn't give me any noticeable benefits worthwhile. But then again I have a skewed veiw especially with lack of personal experience. It seems like the general vote around here is to stay away from anabolics or hrt. Thanks alot man I really appreciate it. I'll keep the bottle in the safe for now lol


Sleep will give you better testosterone levels. 100% proven fact, not an opinion.

Why are you so horned up about hopping on drugs when sleep is the answer, and it's simple? Sure drugs are great, but without sleep, you're pissing into the wind.


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## Reader591 (Nov 21, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> So this may be long but I'm not really sure where to start so forgive me if this is a bit long.
> I was prescribed adhd meds since I was 10 years old. Fast forward to when I was in my 20s I've tried getting off of them for fear of health implications on constantly living on adrenaline just to function. After trying to quit for a couple years my life fell apart. Became an alcoholic. Gained 50lbs lost my gf of 5 years. Barely hanging onto my job... decided I'd rather die early and live life then to live long and be pathetic.
> .   Since going back on my drugs life is great again. Lost 50lbs. Got back into lifting started running. Finally feel alive again since last march, I feel healthier physically and mentally. Only thing is with my job.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to add another one for the lifestyle change. You’d probably be disappointed with the results of just adding some T without any other changes. In fact, the lifestyle change will make a bigger deference in how you feel than the T will. Doesn’t mean one day you may or may not need it. But as for an anecdotal expeince, I felt better on my trt dose when I lowered it some. Granted it was all better than my baseline, but my free t was in single digits and total t was pretty low as well. But I feel best on a lower trt dose. So more doesn’t always mean better, especially in the context you are talking about.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 21, 2022)

CJ said:


> Sleep will give you better testosterone levels. 100% proven fact, not an opinion.
> 
> Why are you so horned up about hopping on drugs when sleep is the answer, and it's simple? Sure drugs are great, but without sleep, you're pissing into the wind.


I guess because I'm not sure how I can improve my quantity of sleep so if I can try and make up for it with drugs. Id dive head in...To be perfectly honest. Weather that's right or wrong. That's just simply what popped into my head as a possibility. And yeah I know that sounds terrible.  But like I said before I've heard you can get away with less sleep on trt so the light bulb went on in my head so to speak lol. 
  Anyways I do understand what your saying. I guess time has a really big impact on my lifestyle so I'm allways looking for options and this happened to be one of the many options I factored in with trt. Which I think like I said previously I'm gonna hold off on lol


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## medulla oblongata (Nov 21, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> I guess because I'm not sure how I can improve my quantity of sleep so if I can try and make up for it with drugs. Id dive head in...To be perfectly honest. Weather that's right or wrong. That's just simply what popped into my head as a possibility. And yeah I know that sounds terrible.  But like I said before I've heard you can get away with less sleep on trt so the light bulb went on in my head so to speak lol.
> Anyways I do understand what your saying. I guess time has a really big impact on my lifestyle so I'm allways looking for options and this happened to be one of the many options I factored in with trt. Which I think like I said previously I'm gonna hold off on lol


I think the lack of sleep would eventually over power the positive effects of TRT also. A few years of sleep deprivation in your 20’s may do some damage and the TRT could potentially reinvigorate you for a while but eventually the lack of sleep compounded with you getting older and not having a healthy lifestyle would over power the TRT,  and potentially allow you to push your body into more unhealthy territory by red lining it with TRT and using Amphetamines to power through rough days. 

 For sleep look into perfect sleep by Andrew Huberman on Youtube he is a professor at Stanford who specializes in neurobiology, also he has extremely in depth episodes about ADHD, and all sorts of other topics including testosterone.


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## Reader591 (Nov 21, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> I guess because I'm not sure how I can improve my quantity of sleep so if I can try and make up for it with drugs. Id dive head in...To be perfectly honest. Weather that's right or wrong. That's just simply what popped into my head as a possibility. And yeah I know that sounds terrible.  But like I said before I've heard you can get away with less sleep on trt so the light bulb went on in my head so to speak lol.
> Anyways I do understand what your saying. I guess time has a really big impact on my lifestyle so I'm allways looking for options and this happened to be one of the many options I factored in with trt. Which I think like I said previously I'm gonna hold off on lol


Something else you can look into, while not nearly as good as proper sleep at night, is Andrew huberman NDSR. It’s just a 10 min meditation that helps you feel clearer mentally during the day. Also, look into binaural beats. There’s a guy on you tube that makes them in lefty’s starting at 15 mins all the way to a full night sleep. I take a 15-20 min cat nap after lunch playing them often. It doesn’t make you feel groggy like I do after a normal nap, even short, and helps a ton. Not a replacement for proper sleep, but helps. You could try them at night as well, it will help your quality of sleep. 

I personally don’t sleep as well if I eat large meals right before bed, and track these things on my oura ring. I use it combined with how I feel to see if it works for me or just is placebo, and for sure a large meal within a few hours of bed screws my sleep. Of course alcohol does too. I fall asleep fast but my quality suffers when having any drinks. 

Diet makes a difference too. To some it may seem woo woo, but you may have problems with some foods that inflame your body. You likely don’t even know it. Reducing inflammation in these areas again allows for more recovery forward workouts, and you’ll feel better as well, which I’m sure you would agree is most important here. I went kept many years ago and felt amazing, and actually could get by on less sleep. I now contribute that to removing foods that were inflammatory for me, and eating Whole Foods primarily. At the time, there was no Leto snacks so I had cook it for the most part, or not eat. It helped me get in tune with my body. I’m no longer keto, but it had huge benefits for me learning my body.

You can only build muscle as fast as you can recover. The healthier you are, and the less stress you put on your body, the more you can stress it in the gym and actually recover and progress, instead of just beating it down and recovering back to baseline.

I like to think of working out like sun tanning. Some is good for you, and you recover nicely with a tan. The more tan you are, the more sun exposure you can handle. Different people have different baselines. Obviously the darker you narturally are, the more sun you can handle. If you just go out in the sun and blister, you won’t tan, and instead cause a lot of damage. There’s an obvious spectrum here, and no magical cut off to where suddenly there’s too much sun or too
Little. Same goes for workouts and training experience. You can also add a layer of that days stress, the rest you had the night before,
And how that week is going. 

Maybe try would help cover up some problems. Maybe not. But regardless, using it as a cover up is a bad idea in my opinion and you’ll either have to suffer down the road, or still address the issues anyway.


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## Angryshitter (Nov 22, 2022)

Reader591 said:


> I just wanted to add another one for the lifestyle change. You’d probably be disappointed with the results of just adding some T without any other changes. In fact, the lifestyle change will make a bigger deference in how you feel than the T will. Doesn’t mean one day you may or may not need it. But as for an anecdotal expeince, I felt better on my trt dose when I lowered it some. Granted it was all better than my baseline, but my free t was in single digits and total t was pretty low as well. But I feel best on a lower trt dose. So more doesn’t always mean better, especially in the context you are talking





medulla oblongata said:


> I think the lack of sleep would eventually over power the positive effects of TRT also. A few years of sleep deprivation in your 20’s may do some damage and the TRT could potentially reinvigorate you for a while but eventually the lack of sleep compounded with you getting older and not having a healthy lifestyle would over power the TRT,  and potentially allow you to push your body into more unhealthy territory by red lining it with TRT and using Amphetamines to power through rough days.
> 
> For sleep look into perfect sleep by Andrew Huberman on Youtube he is a professor at Stanford who specializes in neurobiology, also he has extremely in depth episodes about ADHD, and all sorts of other topics including testosterone.


Yeah like I said don't get me wrong I do sleep. But it's a very fine line. If I don't execute my day absolutely perfectly. Like everything in my day has to go flawlessly. Grocery shopping


Reader591 said:


> Something else you can look into, while not nearly as good as proper sleep at night, is Andrew huberman NDSR. It’s just a 10 min meditation that helps you feel clearer mentally during the day. Also, look into binaural beats. There’s a guy on you tube that makes them in lefty’s starting at 15 mins all the way to a full night sleep. I take a 15-20 min cat nap after lunch playing them often. It doesn’t make you feel groggy like I do after a normal nap, even short, and helps a ton. Not a replacement for proper sleep, but helps. You could try them at night as well, it will help your quality of sleep.
> 
> I personally don’t sleep as well if I eat large meals right before bed, and track these things on my oura ring. I use it combined with how I feel to see if it works for me or just is placebo, and for sure a large meal within a few hours of bed screws my sleep. Of course alcohol does too. I fall asleep fast but my quality suffers when having any drinks.
> 
> ...


Yeah don't get me wrong I do sleep. It's just not OPTIMAL. And honestly I value my sleep more then anything. Especially because when the Amphetamines wear off I know I need to sleep good or productivity lacks the next day. I just wish I could get in that extra hour or so of sleep everyday. Or a moment to breathe. I guess for my situation it's more or less if I don't execute my day PERFECTLY then It'll cut into my workout and or sleep or both. I have to perfectly time getting gas. Or speeding everywhere I go. Litterally power walking through grocery stores just to meet my time budget. 
  It's really hard to explain because every week is different depending on where my job has me working. So I'm allways adapting on the fly to a new routine. 
  I will say this though. For the last month I found myself slacking on workouts because I had it in my head that I'm not gonna make any progress untill I start testosterone which is my bad thinking. So I'm going to push it harder and really try and go for gold here. My plan from here on out is to just go to the gym and get a few sets in even if I can't do a complete workout. I'm just not sure if that will be enough to get any results. But I figure maybe it'll be better then just not going at all on the busy days. Or grinding out those intense workouts but sacrificing sleep. For example today was slammed. But I still worked out and if I go to bed in the next half hour I'll get in a good night's rest too instead of sacrificing one or the other to the extreme. You know what I mean? 
I just feel like since I didn't really push it at the gym then I worry I'll just be waiting my time. Idk


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## Reader591 (Nov 22, 2022)

Angryshitter said:


> Yeah like I said don't get me wrong I do sleep. But it's a very fine line. If I don't execute my day absolutely perfectly. Like everything in my day has to go flawlessly. Grocery shopping
> 
> Yeah don't get me wrong I do sleep. It's just not OPTIMAL. And honestly I value my sleep more then anything. Especially because when the Amphetamines wear off I know I need to sleep good or productivity lacks the next day. I just wish I could get in that extra hour or so of sleep everyday. Or a moment to breathe. I guess for my situation it's more or less if I don't execute my day PERFECTLY then It'll cut into my workout and or sleep or both. I have to perfectly time getting gas. Or speeding everywhere I go. Litterally power walking through grocery stores just to meet my time budget.
> It's really hard to explain because every week is different depending on where my job has me working. So I'm allways adapting on the fly to a new routine.
> ...


Then in that case make your lifts you do get in count. In my opinion, get your compounds in. Don’t go only doing bicep curls. Go in, maybe do a chin up and if you want more bicep focus, change it to focus the squeeze on bicep. More bang for your buck. More ideal in a time crunch. Most ideal overal, not
Necessarily. Make swaps like that. Instead of tricep extensions,
Maybe try close grip bench press. Work hard, but appropriately


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