# HCG hmmmm



## TheBlob (Dec 23, 2013)

So im getting ready to kick off a 10 week dbol/test e cycle. Now is HCG gonna be important here? From what im seeing some opinions differ.. Wouldnt HCG in any case help you retain gains? Along with saving you from atrophy...... And also (im not the smartest dude always) but wouldnt clen also aid in holding on to some gains as well. I know thats not the typical use for it. But it seems to me that it might.. Atleast to my limited knowlege. And DOC id value your input a little as well. Ill do a web cam show for ya as payment.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 23, 2013)

HCG should be a component of every cycle IMO. There more to it than just keeping your nuts pleasant to look at lol. It acts as a LH analog throughout the body, not just the testicles. It can definitely help retain progress by making recovery quicker. 

Clen's anti-catabolic properties are way overrated. The studies were done on animals and tremendously high doses...nothing anywhere near what we would use. We use micrograms, horses can take up to grams of the stuff which would probably kill a human. Even if it was applicable to us, the anti-catabolic effect is pretty weak and not worth it solely for that reason.


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 23, 2013)

i like to use it at the end as a blast before pct starts.I had good luck with this


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## TheBlob (Dec 23, 2013)

HCG at the end sounds wise thats prolly how im going to go about it. I guess I gotta make another purchase... Thanks guys and ill get that cam show to you later doc


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 23, 2013)

I prefer using it during the cycle as preventative maintenance instead of using it as a corrective action after the fact; plus, like I said, LH serves quite a few functions besides just producing testosterone which you'd benefit more by running throughout the cycle. You also avoid the drawbacks of blasting it. In the end the choice is up to you, just fully research it and make an informed decision. 

Looking forward to the cam show....I *might* have to share it with Admin and PoB since I owe them lol


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## graniteman (Dec 23, 2013)

Yea I'm with Doc, I would actually prime the balls with it for a week or 2 before you start. But everyone has their own opinions on it, if you don't mind your nuttz the size of raisins .. I just feel kinda funny when Im gettin the boys played with and they're the size of grapes... That and there are other advantages


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## NeoPT (Dec 23, 2013)

My last hcg protocol helped me actually gain strength and I ended up with higher test post cycle than I did pre cycle. Just adding my way

Weeks 1-3 250iu 2x/week
weeks 4- 500iu per day

Ending 3 days before pct starts. Worked amazingly well and balls were back to size in probably 10-14 days or so.


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## amore169 (Dec 23, 2013)

Are u using an AI cause HCG will also raise your E2 levels, some people are very prone in getting very high E2 levels running just TRT levels of test while others can run test without any AI, have u done any blood work to see what's your base levels of test? Good luck.


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## shenky (Dec 23, 2013)

TheBlob, if you plan on using it during your cycle, what will your protocol look like?


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## AlphaD (Dec 23, 2013)

Blob,

When I was researching my first cycle, I was on the fence about HCG use and seemed like some used during and some used to blast......I ended up using it during my cycle at 250iu x 2....... I administered my first HCG during the 3rd week of my cycle and always the day after my test shot.  I agree with respects that running it during your cycle will allow a swift and complete recovery at best......Although with the Test you will still be shutdown the HCG will continue the leydig celss in yr testes making the recovery easier as you go through your pct.  With that in mind make sure if you do run through cycle have an AI on hand (you should anyhow) Listen to your body because you may have to up your AI dosage if prone to gyno......pinning HCG causes the lh to signal your testes to produce test in turn it also produces the aromataze enzyme, which may cause gyno, so make sure you dial in on your AI and you will be fine.  But I believe the benefits of HCG during cycle outweigh any negative since the negatives can be controlled.


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## DieYoungStrong (Dec 23, 2013)

I gotta agree with Alpha. When I started there was very little thought given to PCT. A short blast of HCG followed by some clomid was it. Always recovered eventually, but gains were definitely melting away after a month or so of being off.

I just ran HCG with a cycle for the first time over the summer/fall, and I definitely recovered faster and held onto more of my gains. I'll be including 500 iu/week on all cycles from here on out.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 23, 2013)

DieYoungStrong said:


> I gotta agree with Alpha. When I started there was very little thought given to PCT. A short blast of HCG followed by some clomid was it. Always recovered eventually, but gains were definitely melting away after a month or so of being off.
> 
> I just ran HCG with a cycle for the first time over the summer/fall, and I definitely recovered faster and held onto more of my gains. I'll be including 500 iu/week on all cycles from here on out.



A good friend of mine had a great analogy for this:

Would you put your seatbelt on AFTER an accident or wear it while driving?

Blasting HCG also causes aromatization in the testicles which adex and aromasin cannot treat.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 23, 2013)

I moved this thread from the underground section Blob


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 23, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> I moved this thread from the underground section Blob



Here is your cookie.

Who's a good boooooy?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 24, 2013)

PillarofBalance said:


> Here is your cookie.
> 
> Who's a good boooooy?



Screw the cookie, I'm stealing your pop tarts


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## TheExperiment (Dec 24, 2013)

I just don't see the purpose of using hcg during cycle, especially if you are using testosterone.  The hcg will try and raise the LH and FSH while the exogenous testosterone will lower it. It would be a constant struggle the whole cycle while the HPTA axis is going crazy trying to react to both the hcg and exogenous test. Personally and looking through the literature, I think doing it that way would cause more permanent damage to the testes-hpta axis. 

I prefer to do the hcg after you finish your last shot of testosterone method. LLewellyn has a nice pct cycle that he gathered from one of the only scientific studies done on pct therapy. I will look in his book here in a little and post his ideal pct therapy going by the study.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 24, 2013)

TheExperiment said:


> I just don't see the purpose of using hcg during cycle, especially if you are using testosterone.  The hcg will try and raise the LH and FSH while the exogenous testosterone will lower it. It would be a constant struggle the whole cycle while the HPTA axis is going crazy trying to react to both the hcg and exogenous test. Personally and looking through the literature, I think doing it that way would cause more permanent damage to the testes-hpta axis.
> 
> I prefer to do the hcg after you finish your last shot of testosterone method. LLewellyn has a nice pct cycle that he gathered from one of the only scientific studies done on pct therapy. I will look in his book here in a little and post his ideal pct therapy going by the study.



The HCG does not raise LH, it actually lowers LH. It is an LH ANALOG meaning is mimics the actions of LH in various receptors. The reason for using HCG on cycle vs after is bc for SERM treatment to be effective, the testicles must be in a responsive state ie non-atrophied. Using HCG throughout the cycle will prevent atrophy from happening and keep the responsiveness of the testicles throughout. When you blast it post cycle you're attempting to do the same thing but doing so AFTER the testicles have been shutdown for weeks upon weeks. Also the body cannot metabolize unlimited amounts of HCG and the Ledyig cells can only be stimulated so much meaning most of what you blast would go to waste. Blasting also increases intra-testicular E2 which adex and aromasin do not treat.


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## TheExperiment (Dec 24, 2013)

Docd187123 said:


> The HCG does not raise LH, it actually lowers LH. It is an LH ANALOG meaning is mimics the actions of LH in various receptors. The reason for using HCG on cycle vs after is bc for SERM treatment to be effective, the testicles must be in a responsive state ie non-atrophied. Using HCG throughout the cycle will prevent atrophy from happening and keep the responsiveness of the testicles throughout. When you blast it post cycle you're attempting to do the same thing but doing so AFTER the testicles have been shutdown for weeks upon weeks. Also the body cannot metabolize unlimited amounts of HCG and the Ledyig cells can only be stimulated so much meaning most of what you blast would go to waste. Blasting also increases intra-testicular E2 which adex and aromasin do not treat.



I don't recomending high dosages for blasting even though some do recomend it. As for the testes not being in a responsive state while atrophied, I just can't buy into that idea due to the fact that if you look at multiple people, they say that have ran test and other stuff for years and just started a pct and it worked so there has to be some responsiveness. Some people's testes are too far desensitized that even hcg/hmg and other methods simply won't work.  I like using 2500IU every 5 days while using clomid and tamoxifen in different phases after cycle. While on cycle, I would recommend aromasin and/or letro. If you can't get either, then use Arimidex.

As for SERM treatment, the testicular atrophy is due to the increase in estradiol. Theoretically, if we can lower our estradiol and keep it lowered during our cycle, we wouldn't have to treat the PCT as aggressive. 

PCT definitely needs more research and in this day and age with moderm medicine and more guys being impotent, I would hope more medicines and studies are being done. Maybe we could bring more awareness to it around here since we both seem to about it.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Dec 25, 2013)

TheExperiment said:


> I don't recomending high dosages for blasting even though some do recomend it.



In 100% agreement. There is no need for high dosages of HCG until ALL other avenues have been exhausted. To my knowledge it is only Dr. Scally who recommends high dosages of HCG in between a cycle and PCT and that's who you were referring to in your previous post. Llewellyn acknowledges his study but that study had a sample population of n=19 so while helpful it's not conclusive. Dr. Crisler, probably one of the most renowned TRT professionals worldwide, recommends more modest dosages be used. 



			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> These on-cycle hCG protocols were developed by Dr. John Crisler, a well-known figure in the anti-aging and hormone-replacement field, for use with his testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients. Although TRT is often administered on a long-term basis, testicular atrophy is a common cosmetic complaint of patients irrespective of the maintenance of normal androgen levels. Dr. Crisler’s hCG program is designed to alleviate this concern in a manner that is acceptable for longer-term use. For those interested in precisely timing their hCG shots in relation to a prescribed testosterone replacement program, Dr. Crisler recommends the following in his paper,“An Update to the Crisler hCG Protocol,” “…my test cyp TRT patients now take their hCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their hCG subcutaneously,and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)…”
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.






> As for the testes not being in a responsive state while atrophied, I just can't buy into that idea due to the fact that if you look at multiple people, they say that have ran test and other stuff for years and just started a pct and it worked so there has to be some responsiveness. Some people's testes are too far desensitized that even hcg/hmg and other methods simply won't work.



I'm not exactly sure what you mean with the statement above^^^. Yes some people's testes are so far desensitized that nothing will work, this is ASIH (Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism). ASIH can be primary or secondary in nature but in the context you and I are talking about here it is primary hypogonadism (testicles are unable to produce testosterone even with a sufficient LH signal). 

The following is the Dr. Crisler recommendations I recommend:



			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> On-Cycle:
> 
> Bodybuilders and athletes may also administer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin throughout a steroid cycle, in an effort to avoid testicular atrophy and the resulting reduced ability to respond to LH stimulus. In effect, this practice is used to avoid the problem of testicular atrophy, instead of trying to correct it later on when the cycle is over. It is important to remember that the dosage needs to be carefully monitored with this type of use, as high levels of hCG may cause increased testicular aromatase expression (raising estrogen levels),771 and also desensitize the testes to LH.772 As such, the drug may actually induce primary hypogonadism when misused, greatly prolonging, not improving, the recovery window. Current protocols for the use of hCG in this manner involve administering 250 IU subcutaneously every 3rd or 4th day throughout the length of the steroid cycle. Higher doses may be necessary for some individuals, but st no point should exceed 500 IU per injection.
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.



Here is information regarding the testes in the atrophied state not being responsive to LH:



			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> The above study suggests that one of the first things to happen after steroid cessation is that the brain recognizes testosterone levels are low again. This will cause GnRH and LH levels begin correcting fairly quickly. The substantial delay between this and an increase in testosterone levels is caused largely by testicular unresponsiveness to luteinizing hormone. After months of receiving extremely weak stimulation, they will have lost a substantial amount of mass (atrophied). This is a well-documented side effect of anabolic steroid use, even if a size difference may not be immediately visible in all cases. When LH levels begin surging back, the testes will initially be unable to handle the workload. This is expected to correct itself in time, but it may take many weeks for the testes to slowly restore to their original mass. With a good portion of the post-cycle recovery period actually being characterized by normal (even high) levels of LH, we must address recovery broadly if we expect it to be effective.....
> 
> Testicular atrophy is caused by a lack of LH stimulation, and likewise recovery is function of increased LH. The objective with hCG is to maximize stimulation of the testes so their original mass is recovered more quickly than if we relied solely on physiological LH production.
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.



This 'unresponsiveness' to LH after steroid cessation can be prevented in the first place by using HCG while on cycle from the beginning and maintain testicular size and function. 



> I like using 2500IU every 5 days while using clomid and tamoxifen in different phases after cycle. While on cycle, I would recommend aromasin and/or letro. If you can't get either, then use Arimidex.



I prefer arimidex as an AI while on cycle alongside HCG administered at 250iu twice weekly. For PCT, a Nolva and clomid combo works exceptionally well, especially when testicular function is maintained through HCG use. 



> As for SERM treatment, the testicular atrophy is due to the increase in estradiol. Theoretically, if we can lower our estradiol and keep it lowered during our cycle, we wouldn't have to treat the PCT as aggressive.



Testicular atrophy is more inline with suppression rather than elevated estradiol. When you introduce exogenous hormones into your body you suppress the HPTA at the hypothalamic level. The hypothalamus recognizes excess levels of hormones and ramps down production of GNrH. Lack of GNrH will tell the pituitary to stop secreting leutinizing hormone. Lack of leutinizing hormone means the Ledyig cells in the testicles have no stimulation to produce testosterone. No endogenous testosterone production means no testicular activity towards producing testosterone and thus the testicles shrink/atrophy...bc of the lack of stimulation. 



			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> Anabolic/androgenic steroids may produce atrophy (shrinkage) of the testicles. Testosterone is synthesized and secreted by the Leydig cells in the testes. Its release is regulated by the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis, a system that is very sensitive to sex steroids. When anabolic steroids are administered, the HPTA will recognize the elevated hormone levels, and respond by reducing the synthesis of testosterone. If the testes are not given ample stimulation, over time they will atrophy, a process that can involve both a loss of testicular volume and shape.
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.




If testicular atrophy was solely due to elevated estradiol why would atrophy occur in the first place if we maintained proper AI usage throughout the cycle? By 'proper' AI usage I'm referring to keeping estradiol within normal physiological levels using AIs and monitoring blood work. Or why would suppression occur if we only introduced non-aromatizable compounds? We know that even with AI use on cycle we are still suppressed and even non-aromatizing compounds can cause suppression. I believe though that you are correct though in that elevated estrogenic or progestagenic activity will cause increased/harsher suppression via the negative feedback loop and agree furthermore that maintaining physiological levels of estradiol, progesterone, and prolactin can help in an easier recovery. This is why some compounds are more suppressive than others.  



			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> Some of the more potent anabolic/androgenic steroids, including testosterone, nandrolone, trenbolone, and oxymetholone, appear to be more suppressive of testosterone release than many other AAS drugs. This may be explained in part by the additional estrogenic or progestational activity inherent in these steroids, as estrogens and progestins both also provide negative feedback inhibition of testosterone release.306 307 It is important to note, however, that all anabolic/androgenic steroids are capable of suppressing testosterone secretion. This includes primarily anabolic compounds such as methenolone and oxandrolone, which are normally regarded as milder in this regard. While these compounds may be less inhibitive of testosterone synthesis under some therapeutic conditions, when taken in the supratherapeutic doses necessary for physique- or performance-enhancement, significant atrophy and suppression are common, and distinctions less pronounced.
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.




IMO, the aggressiveness of the PCT someone would need would be due to the level of suppression and length of time being suppressed. A compound such as Anavar is mildly suppressive hence a standard PCT is usually sufficient. Mildly suppressive doesn't mean it won't suppress as it most certainly would induce suppression, but it would take much higher dosages and longer duration to have the same level of suppression when compared to something such as nandrolone which is extremely suppressive (1 injection of nandrolone can completely shutdown the HPTA). 



> PCT definitely needs more research and in this day and age with moderm medicine and more guys being impotent, I would hope more medicines and studies are being done. Maybe we could bring more awareness to it around here since we both seem to about it.



I 100% agree with you that PCT needs more research unfortunately it can only be case studies performed after the fact since it is a moral dilemma for the medical community ie they can't legally put someone through a "cycle" to test their theories on PCT. We have to do the best that we can interpreting the information that is available in the medical literature as well as taking into account anecdotal experiences. I know that there are studies being performed on HMG currently which may be of immense value to us as it is an LH analog (like HCG but more potent) as well as a FSH analog (which would aid in the impotency you bring up). I'm all for bringing awareness and 'safer' cycling recommendations and I applaud you for feeling the same way. 

Thank you for engaging me in a constructive exchange 


Sorry for the epic novel I wrote but I wanted to explain my position and I think we both are in agreement on the big picture and disagree on the smaller details.


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 25, 2013)

i only blast 500iu eod for 2 weeks and this worked good for me..


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## Bro Bundy (Dec 25, 2013)

mayb one day ill try it on cycle.I also dont see the point in using it while on..i understand it does more then keep the balls plump but i never get atrophy of the sack


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## therealkozmo (Apr 1, 2017)

DocDePanda187123 said:


> In 100% agreement. There is no need for high dosages of HCG until ALL other avenues have been exhausted. To my knowledge it is only Dr. Scally who recommends high dosages of HCG in between a cycle and PCT and that's who you were referring to in your previous post. Llewellyn acknowledges his study but that study had a sample population of n=19 so while helpful it's not conclusive. Dr. Crisler, probably one of the most renowned TRT professionals worldwide, recommends more modest dosages be used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 they can legally give people cycles for experiments. Currently it is frowned upon and doctors risk losing their liscense because it is now a controlled substance if it is viewed by regulatory bodies that the prescribing physician is "recklessly" prescribing a narcotic. That's different then being able to study the effect of testosterone or pct
here are some studies for example

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530941
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3205888/


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## Bro Bundy (Apr 1, 2017)

I still recover well with a hcg blast followed by pct..Its all about having human grade shit


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## therealkozmo (Apr 3, 2017)

Bro Bundy said:


> mayb one day ill try it on cycle.I also dont see the point in using it while on..i understand it does more then keep the balls plump but i never get atrophy of the sack


Lucky bastard. LH effects many pathways and enzymes so for us non mutants HCG can help keep us functioning at our best


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