# Need advice first cycle Test E + Winstrol



## Patchke (Dec 18, 2015)

Hello guys, 

After 7 years of training i want to bring some change. I'm 26, weight 187lb, 5ft 10. 

Did a lot of research and i am planning to start my first steroid cycle soon.
For my first cycle i decided to go for Test E + Winstrol.
Tell me what you guys think, did i forgot something ?? Does it look ok ?? Please give me as much advice as possible.

My cycle looks like this atm.

* Week 1-12

- Test Enanthate 250mg every 4 days
- HCG 250ius every 4 days (2 last HCG at 1500ius)
- Aromasin 10mg ed

*Week 7-12 

-Winstrol 50mg eod

* Week 13-15

-HCG 1500 ius 2X every 4 days
- Aromasin 10mg ed

* Week 16-21

- Nolvadex 20mg ed (40mg 7 first days)
- Clomid 50mg ed (75mg 7 first days)
- LJ100 400mg ed
- Tribulus Sopharma 1g ed

That's it. What do you guys think ?? Does it look ok or did i forgot something ??
Thanks in advance everybody.

Patrick


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## SuperBane (Dec 18, 2015)

You don't need the winny in the cycle. Winstrol is a cutting tool imho not to mention you would be better served to dose it daily not every other day.

The cycle looks pretty well rounded from what I see. 
I guess I'm just wondering what the goals you have for this cycle are.
To bulk up and use the winny to tighten up?


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## Schredder (Dec 18, 2015)

I agree that Winstrol doesnt need to be used.  That compound IMO only really has its place pre contest.  

Also, since this is your first cycle, running Testosterone ONLY will be the best option.  Doing this will give you chance at learning how manage Estradiol, as well as manage any other negative side effects that may occur!  Not having used AAS before,  how will you know what is causing what if you have more than one compound in the mix?  You wont.

I always recommend first cycles being Testosterone only, and then build from there with each cycle.

Do you know you body fat % by the way?


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## Schredder (Dec 18, 2015)

One other thing as well.

I would recommend getting your hands on some Cialis for use during your PCT phase in case libido issues arise.  A small daily dose of 5mg will help you a lot if you find the little guy isnt doing what its supposed to.  On top of that, you can also use a small daily dose DURING your cycle as well to help keep blood pressure in check as well as keep your prostate healthy!


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Decent cycle bro... I echo the advice above re: winny.

Unless your competing and in contest prep it's an unnecessary compound for your goals.

1st cycle should ALWAYS be Test only, so you can gauge how your body deals with aromatisation.
Then on each successive cycle you should either add in a new compound, or raise the Test dose to ensure progression.

I personally like to learn something new from each and every cycle I run - if you change too much too soon, your risk v reward goes up, lots can go wrong, and you could end up walking away learning (and gaining) nothing.

The HCG blast before PCT is also an old-skool technique, if you're running 2 x 250iu's per week from week 1 of cycle until 3 days before PCT - this should suffice.

I'd only consider a HCG blast if you feel that your nuts are minute and could benefit from it. But they shouldn't be if you're running it from week 1.

Good luck bro. Props on some good research.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 19, 2015)

Hey OP; don't let their post count fool you. Some smart cookies here. 

Not much else to say lol, they covered it.


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

Im not sure why yall have such a hate for winny. I for one love the $hit and it definitely isnt just a contest prep product. Winny is one of the fastest working compounds if used properly and provides a very nice look. I use it in every cut...feels and looks awsome!

With that being said and this is the ops first cycle I would agree with skipping the winny.


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

Btw guys winstrol does not aromatize so taking that would not effect his testosterone induced estrogen.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Btw guys winstrol does not aromatize so taking that would not effect his testosterone induced estrogen.



No, but it massively dries out joints and can cause a wealth of issues if training and diet isn't adjusted accordingly.

I think there are far better compounds out there for cutting, and like you said, this is OP's 1st run, let's keep this simple, and his chance of success high.

Test only 1st cycle has a high success rate - throw some Winny in the mix and add some pain to those joints, that 1st cycle may leave OP with some bad memories!


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## Patchke (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperBane said:


> You don't need the winny in the cycle. Winstrol is a cutting tool imho not to mention you would be better served to dose it daily not every other day.
> 
> The cycle looks pretty well rounded from what I see.
> I guess I'm just wondering what the goals you have for this cycle are.
> To bulk up and use the winny to tighten up?



Yes, that's exactly what i want. add some mass and tighten up. You think i will have nice results taking Test only ??

Thank you
Patrick


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## Patchke (Dec 19, 2015)

Schredder said:


> I agree that Winstrol doesnt need to be used.  That compound IMO only really has its place pre contest.
> 
> Also, since this is your first cycle, running Testosterone ONLY will be the best option.  Doing this will give you chance at learning how manage Estradiol, as well as manage any other negative side effects that may occur!  Not having used AAS before,  how will you know what is causing what if you have more than one compound in the mix?  You wont.
> 
> ...



My body fat should be around 12-13 i think, are we allowed to post picture ??

Thank you
Patrick


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## Patchke (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Decent cycle bro... I echo the advice above re: winny.
> 
> Unless your competing and in contest prep it's an unnecessary compound for your goals.
> 
> ...



Ok thank you, if i skip on the winny, i keep test dosage at 250mg every 4 days ??


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## Patchke (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperBane said:


> You don't need the winny in the cycle. Winstrol is a cutting tool imho not to mention you would be better served to dose it daily not every other day.
> 
> The cycle looks pretty well rounded from what I see.
> I guess I'm just wondering what the goals you have for this cycle are.
> To bulk up and use the winny to tighten up?



If i do decide to take winstrol from week 7 to 12 in my cycle, do i need to take 50mg every day or lower the dose ??


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## Onk (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Im not sure why yall have such a hate for winny. I for one love the $hit and it definitely isnt just a contest prep product. Winny is one of the fastest working compounds if used properly and provides a very nice look. I use it in every cut...feels and looks awsome!
> 
> With that being said and this is the ops first cycle I would agree with skipping the winny.



Too many results for different people. I love winny as I get none of the joint issues and it's a fraction of the price of var. Run it with some halo and vrooooooooom, good way to finish a cycle ins style.

However, for all the people that don't like winny because of the joint issues, I can understand their sentiments as there's many alternatives.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Patchke said:


> Ok thank you, if i skip on the winny, i keep test dosage at 250mg every 4 days ??



Yeah, I have OCD, so I like to pin Test E every 3.5 days 

Monday AM - Thursday PM

I pin my HCG - Tuesday AM - Friday PM

As a newcomer I urge you to try this...

Buy yourself a cheap diary from the dollar store, write in your whole cycle, every injection, every tablet, PCT, AI - the lot!

Keep it away from prying eyes, but somewhere where you can check it daily to ensure you never miss a beat. Tick them off as you go. As sometimes on a hectic day, things can get forgotten (especially when your cycles get more complex in years to come)

You'll find you'll get an immense feeling of organisation, where you feel 'on top of the cycle' - and in charge of what's going on.

It's a great habit to start, I still do it for every cycle I run.

NB: It goes without saying that you need to destroy the diary once you've finished your run


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## Popeye (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Yeah, I have OCD, so I like to pin Test E every 3.5 days
> 
> Monday AM - Thursday PM
> 
> ...



OP...If you have a terrible memory, just jot some shit down.

A single page stating take test Xmg this day and AI Xmg that day, should be just fine...sure, keep notes if you want.

The AM/PM and perfect hour injections are not necessary at all and just making it more difficult than it needs to be. It doesn't have to be that precise.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Popeye said:


> OP...If you have a terrible memory, just jot some shit down.
> 
> A single page stating take test Xmg this day and AI Xmg that day, should be just fine...sure, keep notes if you want.
> 
> The AM/PM and perfect hour injections are not necessary at all and just making it more difficult than it needs to be. It doesn't have to be that precise.



Horses for courses brother... it works a treat for me...

Just sharing the idea.


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## Schredder (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Btw guys winstrol does not aromatize so taking that would not effect his testosterone induced estrogen.


 testosterone induced estrogen.[/QUOTE]

It does not aromatize, you are correct, no DHT compound does.  But, it has the ability to lower SHBG, possibly better than any other compound.  Lower SHBG=more Free Testosterone=more Testosterone that could possibly aromatize into Estradiol.  

And as for what Winny does to ones physique visually, there are compounds that are FAR easier on the joints and liver that get the same job done, if not, a better job done.  Ie; Masteron, Anavar.



Patchke said:


> My body fat should be around 12-13 i think, are we allowed to post picture ??
> 
> Thank you
> Patrick



The only reason I ask is if it were to high Id advice you to wait to run a cycle.  But, if you are 12-13% fire away my friend.  

Also, I would pin every 3.5 days..7 days in a week, divided two equals 3.5


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## ToolSteel (Dec 19, 2015)

Because ocd or because you feel it makes a difference?


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## SuperBane (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Im not sure why yall have such a hate for winny. I for one love the $hit and it definitely isnt just a contest prep product. Winny is one of the fastest working compounds if used properly and provides a very nice look. I use it in every cut...feels and looks awsome!
> 
> With that being said and this is the ops first cycle I would agree with skipping the winny.



I have no hate for winny personally.
I was just curious about OP's reasons for usage.
Being his first cycle and no specification of goals... If he was going to say something along the lines of strength gains I would have suggested a different oral to close out with. Probably car.

The fact that he added it to the end of his cycle I made an assumption along the lines of him bulking with the test and tightening up with the  Winny. Also corrected the eod to Ed ...

I would have suggested running Masteron instead of winny in his cycle but left it alone.

I've seen guys in real life run winny along side of deca and look great!

A Base + 19Nor + DHT = Greatness.

He could run this same cycle again for his second cycle and add in deca / NPP.
But these are just ramblings of my point of view and didn't want to muddy a pretty solid cycle layout and create room for debate.


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

Schredder said:


> testosterone induced estrogen.



It does not aromatize, you are correct, no DHT compound does.  But, it has the ability to lower SHBG, possibly better than any other compound.  Lower SHBG=more Free Testosterone=more Testosterone that could possibly aromatize into Estradiol.  

And as for what Winny does to ones physique visually, there are compounds that are FAR easier on the joints and liver that get the same job done, if not, a better job done.  Ie; Masteron, Anavar.



The only reason I ask is if it were to high Id advice you to wait to run a cycle.  But, if you are 12-13% fire away my friend.  

Also, I would pin every 3.5 days..7 days in a week, divided two equals 3.5 [/QUOTE]

Lower shbg and higher free test is a good thing bro. Free test is instantly usable test so the chances of aromatization from that would be minimal if any. Its not like test serum that just sits there circulating through the body waiting to be used causing aromatization havoc lol

Im also one that gets no sides from winni except crap lipids of course so for someone who gets painful joints ya they could run something else but lets face it...there is nothing out there like winstrol kind of like there is nothing out there like tren...it has its own uniquness.


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## Schredder (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Btw guys winstrol does not aromatize so taking that would not effect his testosterone induced estrogen.





Cobra Strike said:


> It does not aromatize, you are correct, no DHT compound does.  But, it has the ability to lower SHBG, possibly better than any other compound.  Lower SHBG=more Free Testosterone=more Testosterone that could possibly aromatize into Estradiol.
> 
> And as for what Winny does to ones physique visually, there are compounds that are FAR easier on the joints and liver that get the same job done, if not, a better job done.  Ie; Masteron, Anavar.
> 
> ...



Lower shbg and higher free test is a good thing bro. Free test is instantly usable test so the chances of aromatization from that would be minimal if any. Its not like test serum that just sits there circulating through the body waiting to be used causing aromatization havoc lol

Im also one that gets no sides from winni except crap lipids of course so for someone who gets painful joints ya they could run something else but lets face it...there is nothing out there like winstrol kind of like there is nothing out there like tren...it has its own uniquness.[/QUOTE]

Lower SHBG and higher free T is absolutely a great thing!!  One of the reasons why I run Masteron with every single blast

And everyone IS different is terms of sides effects frok certain compounds.  I personally couldnt stand the way Winny made me feel, hense my recommendation/opinion.  Never the less though, I think we all agreed on Winny not being suitable for cycle #1.  

And there is DEFINITELY nothing like Tren


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## Schredder (Dec 19, 2015)

Why are all these quotes showing up all messed up?!


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## ToolSteel (Dec 19, 2015)

Because you old fukks don't know how to Internet from your jitterbugs


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

Schredder said:


> Why are all these quotes showing up all messed up?!



Haha I was just wondering the same thing!!! I couldnt tell were the quote ended and my post started!

And fk you for being right toolsteel


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## Patchke (Dec 19, 2015)

Don't have much pictures, here's one i found.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> Because ocd or because you feel it makes a difference?



Because it makes a difference... I've always pinned enanthate esters twice weekly.

14 week cycle = 28 injections if you pin twice a week.

14 week cycle = 24.5 injections if you pin every 8 days.

Why sell yourself short?

Also, how do you work out a long term plan for progressive cycles?

I usually up my weekly dosage on every cycle - and advise users to do the same
ie: Cycle 1 - 500mg Test, Cycle 2 - 600mg Test +1 compound etc etc

But if you aren't pinning twice weekly, how can you even work out your weekly intake?


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## ToolSteel (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Because it makes a difference... I've always pinned enanthate esters twice weekly.
> 
> 14 week cycle = 28 injections if you pin twice a week.
> 
> ...



I simply meant the am/pm exact 3.5 days. 

If stable blood levels were that crucial, then why not 4am Monday, noon Wednesday, 8pm Friday? Or even the exact same time every day? 

There is something to be said on both sides of the coin, from stable blood levels to peak plasma levels.


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

No one is going to notice one shred of difference if shots are timed perfectly vs imperfectly. Metabolism rates vary anyway so that ruins any control part of the process. You will make the same exact gains either way you do it so make it easy on yourself


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> No one is going to notice one shred of difference if shots are timed perfectly vs imperfectly. Metabolism rates vary anyway so that ruins any control part of the process. You will make the same exact gains either way you do it so make it easy on yourself



Keeping a diary is as easy as it gets!

My current cycle is a mix of short, medium and long esters, AI, DA & HCG...

I simply look at the day's page, do what I need to do, tick it off, job done.

Tried and tested!


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## Onk (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Keeping a diary is as easy as it gets!
> 
> My current cycle is a mix of short, medium and long esters, AI, DA & HCG...
> 
> ...



You're showing your age Ben!

OP, I have excel files for all my cycles. 

Create a column of dates for your cycle + time between PCT + PCT
Create a column for test, another for AI, another for HCG, another for PCT

Once you input your test injections on three fields, say 1-Jan-16, 4-Jan-16, 7-Jan16 (three days), highlight the data range and drag down to your last pin. This should effectively create your schedule of pinning for the cycle. 
Do the same process for AI and HCG (these will go further than the Test)
Then do your PCT

I'd also create a column for Injection sites. This way you can log which ones you use so you never forget, so you can easily rotate.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Onk said:


> You're showing your age Ben!
> 
> OP, I have excel files for all my cycles.
> 
> ...



Onk.... they thought my system was too full-on...

You've blown me out of the water with that one lol


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 19, 2015)

Yes tool the am/pm thing is very important. If u don't pin exactly 3 and a half days apart, right down to the second then you will not make  any gains what so ever.


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## John Ziegler (Dec 19, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> I simply meant the am/pm exact 3.5 days.
> 
> If stable blood levels were that crucial, then why not 4am Monday, noon Wednesday, 8pm Friday? Or even the exact same time every day?
> 
> There is something to be said on both sides of the coin, from stable blood levels to peak plasma levels.



Are you starting to realize where I came up with the theory now brother ?


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## Assassin32 (Dec 19, 2015)

I pin Test Cyp every 5 days, whether it be TRT or a blast. That works just fine for me. Since I have to do it for life I figure the less shots the better. As far as figuring out dosages, if you passed the 1st grade you can do it pretty easily. Take the amount you pin divided by how many days it's been. 300 mg every 5 days is 60 mg/day, which would be 420/wk. Or 500 every 5 days is 100/day and 700/wk. And so on. It works for me, but to each their own. I think the majority of AAS users pin way too frequently for no good reason. I saw a guy the other day saying he pinned Test Cyp eod.


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

ECKSRATED said:


> Yes tool the am/pm thing is very important. If u don't pin exactly 3 and a half days apart, right down to the second then you will not make  any gains what so ever.



Oh man, you've totally missed my point....

I'm an old man, with a waining memory.

I simply find it easier to write shit down and tick it off as I go.

WTF is with all this smart condescending talk?

I'll keep my thoughts to myself.


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Oh man, you've totally missed my point....
> 
> I'm an old man, with a waining memory.
> 
> ...



I wasn't replying to what u said. It's actually a joke because zeigler always says pin exactly 3 and a half days apart. Wasn't towards you brother.


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 19, 2015)

I pin my long esters every e3d and my short esters ed eod. I also pin them at the exact same time every time! Timing is HUGE in keeping ones blood levels stable.


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## Popeye (Dec 19, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Oh man, you've totally missed my point....
> 
> I'm an old man, with a waining memory.
> 
> ...



Lighten up dude. 

This is a good place, but, not if you have thin skin.



GYMBRAT said:


> I pin my long esters every e3d and my short esters ed eod. I also pin them at the exact same time every time! Timing is HUGE in keeping ones blood levels stable.



There are other factors that completely nullify "timing".


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## ECKSRATED (Dec 19, 2015)

GYMBRAT said:


> I pin my long esters every e3d and my short esters ed eod. I also pin them at the exact same time every time! Timing is HUGE in keeping ones blood levels stable.



A few hours isn't gonna make a difference man. I've ran lots of long esters and there's been plenty of times I've forgotten to take a shot so I did it 1 2 or even 3 days later with absolutely no noticeable difference.


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 19, 2015)

How bout this to throw a wrench in the gears...

I run short esters the same exact way I run long esters...I pin everything mon/wed/fri...same exact gains. Mind = blown!! 

No need for journals or any of that but to each their own


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## bigben66 (Dec 19, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> How bout this to throw a wrench in the gears...
> 
> I run short esters the same exact way I run long esters...I pin everything mon/wed/fri...same exact gains. Mind = blown!!
> 
> No need for journals or any of that but to each their own



I'm yet to meet a guy that took gear, trained and didn't grow.... so that proves absolutely nothing.


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

ECKSRATED said:


> A few hours isn't gonna make a difference man. I've ran lots of long esters and there's been plenty of times I've forgotten to take a shot so I did it 1 2 or even 3 days later with absolutely no noticeable difference.



Not saying an hr or two the odd time will cause an ounce of difference.  BUT keep doing it and see what it does. If you're going to cycle do it properly is what I'm getting at.....

If you were to get bloods immediately after missing your shots you'd see what I'm talking about.


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> How bout this to throw a wrench in the gears...
> 
> I run short esters the same exact way I run long esters...I pin everything mon/wed/fri...same exact gains. Mind = blown!!
> 
> No need for journals or any of that but to each their own



Yup to each their own. I used to keep journals when I was younger in order to keep track of exactly what AAS I used and how I used it. That's what keeps you as an individual educated for future reference. How are you going to remember what worked better or not....


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

Popeye said:


> Lighten up dude.
> 
> This is a good place, but, not if you have thin skin.
> 
> ...



Please enlighten us


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## DF (Dec 20, 2015)

I have the app Pill Monitor on my phone.  Tells me when to take my pin ect...


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

DF said:


> I have the app Pill Monitor on my phone.  Tells me when to take my pin ect...



This is cool. Thanks for sharing


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## Popeye (Dec 20, 2015)

GYMBRAT said:


> Please enlighten us



Gee, IDK...absorption rate, temperature of oil, temperature of room, full moon, injection site, angle of injection, metabolic rate, global warming, EXACT same injection technique, if it's a weekday, hydration, if the gear is exactly dosed the same, if you walk faster than normal, if some gear leaks out, Donald J Trump, if some goes in a vein, blood pressure, werewolfs, activity after, activity before, food you ate, liquid you drank, stayed up later, isis, took something that affects it...

Shall I keep going?

I'm not saying, just do it whenever...and a journal is not a bad idea if you want...but enough of the BS.


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## ToolSteel (Dec 20, 2015)

Zeigler Robertson said:


> Are you starting to realize where I came up with the theory now brother ?


Absolutely not. You missed my lighthearted sarcasm.


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## Onk (Dec 20, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Onk.... they thought my system was too full-on...
> 
> You've blown me out of the water with that one lol



Hahahaha....welll, I use excel everyday for work it seemed natural to use it for training. 

I sometimes forget which site I used last, issue with being able to use 12-14 sites) so the excel sheets help


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

Popeye said:


> Gee, IDK...absorption rate, temperature of oil, temperature of room, full moon, injection site, angle of injection, metabolic rate, global warming, EXACT same injection technique, if it's a weekday, hydration, if the gear is exactly dosed the same, if you walk faster than normal, if some gear leaks out, Donald J Trump, if some goes in a vein, blood pressure, werewolfs, activity after, activity before, food you ate, liquid you drank, stayed up later, isis, took something that affects it...
> 
> Shall I keep going?
> 
> I'm not saying, just do it whenever...and a journal is not a bad idea if you want...but enough of the BS.



Keep going please as you still haven't logically answered the question at hand....

And enough of what BS if I may ask? Please enlighten us once again sir!


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## John Ziegler (Dec 20, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> Absolutely not. You missed my lighthearted sarcasm.



I think you missed mine too. We are either too alike or too different to ever agree on anything I can't figure it out yet.


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## Popeye (Dec 20, 2015)

GYMBRAT said:


> I also pin them at the exact same time every time! Timing is HUGE in keeping ones blood levels stable.






GYMBRAT said:


> Keep going please as you still haven't logically answered the question at hand....
> 
> And enough of what BS if I may ask? Please enlighten us once again sir!



Not sure what you don't understand. 

You're already going to have fluctuations in blood level stability from injecting intermittently.

Saying timing is HUGE and to pin at the same exact time, every dose, will give more stable levels...is utter BS. 

It will not make any difference if it's at the exact same time or not because everyfukingthing under the sun will affect it.

I'll break one aspect down for ya, sir! 

Absorption! *Different* muscles absorb at *different* rates due to the simple fact of *differing* vascularity. If you rotate sites, your broscience is invalid....but that's just one aspect.

Add in your body being in a constantly changing state, whether it be dehydration/overhydration or what you ate for dinner...your same exact pinning times are shit because they are not absorbing at the same rate anyway.

With numerous other factors fuking with "stable blood levels", I'll come to my conclusion...*Pick a DAY and pin, that's it!*


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## bigben66 (Dec 20, 2015)

Popeye said:


> I'm not saying, just do it whenever...and a journal is not a bad idea if you want...but enough of the BS.



enough of the BS?.... I respectfully suggest you take a look in the mirror.

We had a new user here, discussing his proposed cycle and quite rightly looking for advice from vets as to how to best utilise what he had.

I gave him solid cycle advice, but also threw a little idea in to the mix that has stood me in good stead over the years - as my cycles have become more progressive and detailed.
A journal is a great way of working a cycle back from an event. Whether that be a photoshoot, show, or even just a vacation.

He may be a beginner at this stage, but when he gets to a stage in the future where he may be combining 4 or 5 oils, a couple of orals, a DA, an AI, HCG - and on top of that, plan out his PCT start time, duration and end. Then a journal is not OCD, is just makes plain ****ing sense. I don't care how organised a person can be, a few slack written jottings on a piece of paper is never going to be as organised and structured as a journal.

Listen, I may be a noobie to this site, I get that - but I'm a loooong way from being a noobie to this game.
I come from a background of PT, 28yrs of training, and almost 12yrs of cycling. 

Of course, there can be flexibility with pinning frequency etc - I'm not stupid, I get that, but I also get that cycles need to be organised, structured and well thought out for them to run optimally. Otherwise we would all be telling noobs to just pin whatever, and how much they liked, whenever they got the urge. It's just bad advice all round.
Jeez, I use Test Undecanoate for TRT - that has to be THE most flexible ester there is - so I get that.

Somebody said earlier on in this thread that I need to 'lighten up' as this is a 'good place.'
If this is such a good place, perhaps people should embrace other people's perspectives, and consider that someone else's way, may just work.

I'm hardly going to lighten up, when I'm passing my hard-earned experience down to noobs, and getting tore a strip off for no good reason whatsoever.
I mean think about it, you're disagreeing with me for telling a newcomer to AAS to be organised and think about what they are doing.
I mean WTF is that all about guys?


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## mugzy (Dec 20, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> enough of the BS?.... I respectfully suggest you take a look in the mirror.
> 
> We had a new user here, discussing his proposed cycle and quite rightly looking for advice from vets as to how to best utilise what he had.
> 
> ...



Very well written response, something we need to discuss how to remedy.....


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

Popeye said:


> Not sure what you don't understand.
> 
> You're already going to have fluctuations in blood level stability from injecting intermittently.
> 
> ...



You truly need to study further SIR!  You're flat out giving rediculous contradicting "bro science" non scientificly proven answers. If you would just pull your "know it all" head outa your ass" for 1 minute you'd be amazed at what you could learn from some of us older bodybuilders who've actually lived this world and personality proven what works and what doesn't. 

No need to get all uptight like you're some kind of "steroid guru" which you're obviously not!

I enjoy this board and most the members. I've been around for many many years. I eat shit and breath this lifestyle. Everything I post is from either personal trial and error over my 30 years of AAS use. Or it's from flat out book studies. I ONLY spew proper safe logical legitimate information. I don't just spout off at the mouth with non proven facts.

This is real life and real people therefore anyone who posts should post absolute logic. I say this only because there are newbs signing up here everyday. They need to know facts not hot air.....

But hey, "To each theirown right".....


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 20, 2015)

Edit...

13+ years off AAS use


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## DF (Dec 20, 2015)

Good lord guys!  I'm skimming over the bickering that has clogged up the OP's thread.  I find it ridiculous to be picking out stuff from the guys that have newly arrived here.  Being organized & Winny?  Really?  Debating is not a bad thing but ****.... The guys that have been here really should know better than this petty BS. This board is beyond this sort of shit!  IMO!


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## Megatron28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Onk said:


> You're showing your age Ben!
> 
> OP, I have excel files for all my cycles.
> 
> ...



I just pre-program my Google Calendar with my injection days, sites and doses.  You can schedule them to repeat out into the future.  So for example, every 4th Tuesday evening may be the left delt injection for whatever you are running.  You can even get popup reminders!


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 20, 2015)

Megatron28 said:


> I just pre-program my Google Calendar with my injection days, sites and doses.  You can schedule them to repeat out into the future.  So for example, every 4th Tuesday evening may be the left delt injection for whatever you are running.  You can even get popup reminders!



I do that for my trt cause it's every 5 days... I can never keep track of that...


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 20, 2015)

So much butthurt in here guys... damn. It's all about personal preferences. I think we can all admit that someone pinning e3d e3.5 days or whatever so long as it's reasonable within the half life of the given drug you're going to make gains.

Some prefer stable blood levels because it can reduce sides and keep protein synthesis constant.  Some like myself prefer huge peaks and troughs because I don't ever get sides and I feel better that way.  Either way we make some gains. 

We have guys on here like dizzle who makes a spreadsheet for everything he does - drugs, food, sleep, supplements, buttsex. Others like cobra just simplify by pinning everything MWF.  

Who cares lol

For the sake of discussion though it should be simple to just say here is my 2 cents... No need to argue it, but do ask questions like why do you prefer that way.  Everyone gets respect here and everyone is entitled to their opinions.   Because let's not forget there isn't a double blind placebo controlled study to demonstrate everything we do because we are outside of the medical ethics boundaries. 

Peace on Earth, goodwill toward man. Merry Christmas you ****s.


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## bigben66 (Dec 20, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> Some prefer stable blood levels because it can reduce sides and keep protein synthesis constant.  Some like myself prefer huge peaks and troughs because I don't ever get sides and I feel better that way.  Either way we make some gains.



That's very true PoB, and I agree with everything you've said....

But we are advising newbies here... so with all due respect, a newbie won't know if he can handle huge peaks and troughs like your good self.

I'll keep advising them to be organised and strive for stable bloods - because ethically that's what I believe in. I've learnt the hard way that peaks and troughs usually result in complications, that's with TRT and blasting/cycling.

I mean no disrespect to you vets, I value your opinions. I guess a lot of you take a more gung-ho approach to your cycles than I do. All good by me.

Peace out!


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## Cobra Strike (Dec 20, 2015)

Honestly I wasnt even trying to argue. Lets not attack the guys that have been here just like we shouldnt attack the guys that are new. Both sides are guilty of standing their ground you could say. 

Gains are far more recieved from nutrition then proper pin times anyway and just cause a guy is new to aas doesnt mean we need to make it technical as fk for him. Just cause a guy is new to aas we dont have to be exactly by the book...we just have to give good advice that isnt harmful. Everyone thats posted in here is right in a way which is kind of hilarious that its gotten to this point

When I run one compound or 6 its all the same and very simple to remember my dosages...the dieting is the challenge. No two cyes are ever the same so keeping track of one cycle to see what works best is really not going to work when your diet is what you should keep track of because thats what is going to keep changing your body. 

There are many ways to skin a cat and all these boards are about everyone stating what works for them or what they have learned so arguments are going to occur...its board life so deal with it and move on and if you cant then go find another board cause there are plenty. I say this for vets and newbs and myself included so no one feels left put or picked on


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## bigben66 (Dec 20, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> ...the dieting is the challenge.



Perhaps you should keep a food journal


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 20, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> That's very true PoB, and I agree with everything you've said....
> 
> But we are advising newbies here... so with all due respect, a newbie won't know if he can handle huge peaks and troughs like your good self.
> 
> ...



Start up a thread that YOU think is ideal for a first timer please.


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 20, 2015)

bigben66 said:


> Perhaps you should keep a food journal



Srsly lol'd irl


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## oldtimer (Dec 20, 2015)

just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it, but on the original cycle, and it did look pretty good I think, accept the whinny eod, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't whinny's half life about 8-10 hours on oral?  Seems like eod would do nothing more then keep your levels bouncing around.  Sounds like your going to hold off on the whinny anyways. but might want to look at that a little closer when/if you do put it into your next cycle.


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## Onk (Dec 20, 2015)

oldtimer said:


> just out of curiosity, and I may have missed it, but on the original cycle, and it did look pretty good I think, accept the whinny eod, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't whinny's half life about 8-10 hours on oral?  Seems like eod would do nothing more then keep your levels bouncing around.  Sounds like your going to hold off on the whinny anyways. but might want to look at that a little closer when/if you do put it into your next cycle.



correct, I'd use winning (and do) dosed am and pm, split 50/50.


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 21, 2015)

Cobra Strike said:


> Honestly I wasnt even trying to argue. Lets not attack the guys that have been here just like we shouldnt attack the guys that are new. Both sides are guilty of standing their ground you could say.
> 
> Gains are far more recieved from nutrition then proper pin times anyway and just cause a guy is new to aas doesnt mean we need to make it technical as fk for him. Just cause a guy is new to aas we dont have to be exactly by the book...we just have to give good advice that isnt harmful. Everyone thats posted in here is right in a way which is kind of hilarious that its gotten to this point
> 
> ...



Completely agree with you on this


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## ToolSteel (Dec 21, 2015)

All I was trying to say was a few were making things just a wee bit more critical than necessary IMO. Nothing personal nor any direct attacks.


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## Onk (Dec 21, 2015)

ToolSteel said:


> All I was trying to say was a few were making things just a wee bit more critical than necessary IMO. Nothing personal nor any direct attacks.



Nuh-uh, you're a dickhead.


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## GYMBRAT (Dec 21, 2015)

We're all test driven alpha males, what's one to expect lol

I enjoy this place


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## Fsuphisig (Dec 22, 2015)

I love test


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## PillarofBalance (Dec 22, 2015)

Fsuphisig said:


> I love test



The more I branched out and experimented the more I wanted to just run test by itself with maybe just an oral for fun.

Most dramatic cycle I ever ran physique wise was 200 test cyp weekly with 50mg tne daily.  My body changed very fast..


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## ToolSteel (Dec 22, 2015)

I bet people could smell you from 20' away


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## bigben66 (Dec 22, 2015)

PillarofBalance said:


> The more I branched out and experimented the more I wanted to just run test by itself with maybe just an oral for fun.
> 
> Most dramatic cycle I ever ran physique wise was 200 test cyp weekly with 50mg tne daily.  My body changed very fast..



How did you monitor estradiol on that cycle buddy?

I'm guessing you just pinned the TNE on training days?


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