# Worried and uneducated.



## EnRoute (Feb 11, 2014)

Being new to this forum, I am still unsure where the appropriate place to start with my questions. Feel free to yell at me if this is not the right location, or if my questions seem a bit uneducated. 

I would first ask if it is possible for someone to list the full terms for acronyms that are commonly used on this forum. At times it has been difficult for me to follow informational posts due to a lack of understanding what supplemant catagories are being discussed.

I also have several concerns in regards to several supplemants I have taken in the past and still have. I had obtained ProHormones, and noticed a substantial strength and definition gain after four weeks. My bench press began at 100lb 8 reps to 130lb 5 reps by the third week. I began at a body wieght of 173lb and reached 180lb. Side affects I encountered were: severe night sweats, moderate joint pain, and a noted side effect of very mild gyno. I took an unknown recomended PCT stack from the private supplement shop that I purchesed the PHs from. These were taken with minimal understanding of risks vs benifit for using supplements such as these. I do not believe that the PCT was affective. I have retained the weight I reached, however, I have lost a majority of my muscle mass. 

A bit about me:

I have lifted for seven years and trained in Martial Arts at a highly competative level for ten years. I have swam competativly for approximatly for 6 years. My weight training became the focus of my everyday life, and it seemed to me that I had reach my genetic potential. I focused my life around nutrition and a continual change in weight training. 

I currently weigh 180lb, 5 11', 28y/o.

After taking these PHs, I had blood work performed and was noted to have no Liver or Kidney functional changes. I was, however, told that my Test levels were that of an 80y/o man. This was during the application of the oral PHs. The nephrologist stated that he would perscribe test replacement therapy. I chose not to, as I figured that it was due to the synthetic chemicals replacing my own test levels. This was approximatly three months ago. I am still concerned about bringing my natural hormones levels back to homeostasis and also worried that it is to late to address the mild gyno that has appeared.

I would like to obtain a positive outcome from this ignorant use of supplements if it is not to late. Once I resolve this issue, I would like to work on obtaining better results from more informed procedures in the future.

Any guidance or information would be welcome.

Thank you.


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 11, 2014)

I will see what I can do about acronyms but for now if you read something and don't know what it means just ask.

Go back to the doc and ask if instead of the trt if they will prescribe clomid. Clomid at 25mg eod over the course of 3 to 6 months will help the body start producing naturally again. Or if you plan to use steroids in the future take the trt but only if it's injections that you can do at home. 

Then go back to the supplement shop and smash the owner in the head with a tire iron for giving you gyno. You might also punch yourself in the dick for taking something and having no clue how to properly or even what it is.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 11, 2014)

I would opt for clomid or HCG and attempt a restart, if you are indeed still shutdown. Raloxifene/Evista or Tamoxifen/Nolvadex should clear up any gyno issues you have. 

I doubt you'll punch yourself in the dick as POB suggested but certainly go after the person who sold you the PHs and give him a few whacks with that tire iron.


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## j2048b (Feb 11, 2014)

Or just EDUCATE URSELF BEFORE BLINDLY TAKING CRAP U DONT RESEARCH URSELF! And for that double punch urself in the dick and youtube it!   

U need to educate urself for a while before taking any prohormone! 

Sounds like u took a tren of some sorts?

Do as these guys say and me too because that double punch will be worth the laughs!!


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## will (Feb 11, 2014)

I believe the uneducated says it all. Study, and when u think u know all there is to know study more. It's never a good idea to hear about something and jump right on board. I'm not gonna tell u to punch urself in the dick cause with a mild case of gyno u done got ur punch. Use this as an eye opener cause it could have been much worse.


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## EnRoute (Feb 11, 2014)

Thank you for the recommendations and I will punch my dick repeatedly, as I normally do :32 (3): . . . I addressed my concern to my nephrologist about estrogen increases and the mild gyno. He didn’t seem to be concerned about this issue. I do not believe he has any experience with ProHormones or AAS. This is a very highly standing physician and it appeared that the majority of male patients were 60+ in the office. Are Raloxifene/Evista or Tamoxifen/Nolvadex or Clomid or HCG, available as purchase without a physician's script? Also if I do request these medications, is he likely to prescribe them? If I do opt to take TRT, this physician indicated that it would be in topical form only. 

Per the Supplement Shop Proprietor I took these two stacks 
13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)dien-17-one 30mg 
17b-hydroxy-2a,17-dimethyl-5a-androstan-3-one azine 15mg
2 doses per day
and
2-cyano-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-androst-3-1 20mg
2a, 17a-dimethyl-17b, hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one 10mg
2 doses per day

This was one cycle for approximatly 4 weeks.

I was wondering if anyone could also explain what the compound names represent.


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## Malevolence (Feb 11, 2014)

You sound extremely intelligent just not in the right area. It sounds like you are gyno prone so taking Trt without any AI's the same problem is likely to occur. Like the others, I would suggest a nova/Clomid cycle before you do anything else.


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## Malevolence (Feb 11, 2014)

And I would suggest a daily regimen of jelqing too.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 12, 2014)

Malevolence said:


> And I would suggest a daily regimen of jelqing too.



You and me both bro. To think we've gone so long without jelquing...


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## bronco (Feb 12, 2014)

Here is a list of some i copied from another board maybe this will help

ALA= Alpha Lipoic Acid 
AS = Anabolic Steroids 
AR = Androgen Receptor
BA = benzyl alcohol
BB = Body Builder or Body Building 
BRO = You and I 
CASE = The body part of a syringe 
CC = cubic centimeter (one thousandth of a liter) 
CLEN = Clenbuterol 
CNS = Central Nervous System 
CYP = Testosterone Cypionate 
DART =Syringe/Needle 
DBOL = Dianabol (Methandrostenolone) 
DECA = Nandrolone Decanoate 
DHT = Dihydrotestosterone 
DNP = Dinitrophenol 
DRINK WINNY = Yes you can drink Winny 
ECA = Ephedrine/Caffeine/Aspirin 
ED = Every Day 
ENTH = Testosterone Enanthate 
EOD = Every other day 
EQ = Equipoise (Boldenone Undecylenate) 
FINA = Finaplix (Trenbolone Acetate) 
GEAR= steroids
GH = Growth Hormone 
GHB = GAMMA HYDROXYBUTYRATE growth hormone 
GYNO = Gynomastica (Bitch tits) 
HGH = Human Growth Hormone 
HPTA = Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis 
IGF = Insulin Growth Factor 
INJ = Inject, Injection 
LH = Leutenizing Hormone 
MCG = Micrograms 
MG = Milligrams 
ML = Milliliters 
NYC = Norephedrine Yohimbe Caffiene 
NOLVA = Nolvaldex 
OTC = Over the counter 
PIN = Needle 
PRIMO = Primobolan, Primobolan Depot 
PROP = Testosterone Propionate 
SLIN = Insulin 
SUST = Sustanon 
T3 = Thyroid Hormone 
TEST = Testosterone 
TREN = Trenbolone 
WINNY = Winstrol-V (Stanozolol) 
17 AA = 17 Alpha Alkylated 
1cc = 1ml 
mau hung= Ephedra
CRS = Can't remember Shit 
ot = off topic 
O/T = off topic 
LOL = Laugh out loud 
LMAO = Laughing my ass off 
LMFAO = laughing my fu(king ass off 
ROFLMAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off 
ROFLMFAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my fu(king ass off 
ROFLMGDMFAO = rolling on the floor laughing my god damn mother fu(king ass off 
BTW = By the way 
IMO = In my opinion 
IMHO = In my humble opinion 
IMHO = In my honest opinion 
WTF = What the fu(k 
stfu = shut the fu(k up 
AAFLB = Accronims are for lazy bastards

ED = Every day
EOD = Every other day
EQ = EQUIPOISE (Boldenone Undecylenate)
Tren/Fina = Finaject (Trenbolone Acetate) ~ the old Parabolan
Test = General expression for all testosteron, IE susta, propiante...
HGH/HG = Human Growth Hormon
d-bol/thai = Dianabol
Winny/Win = Winstrol(Stanzolol)
prop = TESTOSTERONE PROPIONATE
enth = TESTOSTERONE ENANTHATE
cyp = TESTOSTERONE CYPIONATE
sust/omna = Sustanon/Omnadren
Primo = Primobolan depot
Clen = Clenbuterol
ECA = Ephedrine/Caffein/Aspirin
depot = injectable
SHIC=Short High Intensity Cycle
A-bombs/A50 = Anadrol 50
frontload = More juice in the beginning of the cycle
pyramid = most juice in the midle of the cycle. Little in the beg and end
AAS/AS/roids/juice/gear = Anabolic Androgen Steroids
MPB = Male Pattern Baldness
gyno = gynomastic? (Bitch tits)
PCT = Post cycle thearpy (Clomid, Nolva


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 12, 2014)

That's a crazy list Bronco. That should answer most of his questions.


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## Bro Bundy (Feb 12, 2014)

bronco said:


> Here is a list of some i copied from another board maybe this will help
> 
> ALA= Alpha Lipoic Acid
> AS = Anabolic Steroids
> ...



what...no LNE wtf


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 12, 2014)

bronco said:


> Here is a list of some i copied from another board maybe this will help
> 
> ALA= Alpha Lipoic Acid
> AS = Anabolic Steroids
> ...



Thanks bronco


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## bronco (Feb 12, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> what...no LNE wtf



LOL… probably the most used acronym on this board


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## j2048b (Feb 12, 2014)

bronco said:


> Here is a list of some i copied from another board maybe this will help
> 
> ALA= Alpha Lipoic Acid
> AS = Anabolic Steroids
> ...



Should be stickied in a thread of its own! Imo anyways like beginners to aas/ hormones etc...


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 12, 2014)

J20 said:


> Should be stickied in a thread of its own! Imo anyways like beginners to aas/ hormones etc...



I think POB is one step ahead of you lol, He already made it into a sticky!


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## EnRoute (Feb 12, 2014)

Very helpful, thank you for posting that information for me.  I was wondering if Clomid could be found without a script? Also, is it typically taken alone or attached with other products to reset/increase natural test levels?  Sorry to ask again,  just noted that that portion of my last post was not addressed.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 12, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> Very helpful, thank you for posting that information for me.  I was wondering if Clomid could be found without a script? Also, is it typically taken alone or attached with other products to reset/increase natural test levels?  Sorry to ask again,  just noted that that portion of my last post was not addressed.



You could find liquid clomid from a research chem site or search for somewhere that offers the real deal. Normally clomid is administered as mono therapy from what I've seen but there are some that run it along with HCG. HCG is a suppressive compound though so I'd only use it if the clomid fails

Do you have any lab results or blood work to help better assess your situation?


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## EnRoute (Feb 12, 2014)

I need to locate my initial lab results. It has been several months since the values were given to me in hard copy. I also had twins two months ago, and work three jobs. Fortunately for me, we are able to lift at work at any time.  I will try to locate them (not the twins, I know where they are) over the next several days. Also. I was chastised by taking these PHs without knowing what I was putting in my body.  How do I know if I am buying safe and effective products for research? If I order clomid from a research site, is there potential for me to have my penis fall off? Lol, I am sorry about sounding needy, however, it would also be nice if there was a list and concise description of the chemicals PHs like the ones I posted. More so, how the names and chemicals relate to affecting the body's hormonal composition. That way I know how and why I f.ed up my body so effectively.  Maybe a thorough list of does and donts and the why of those.  Lol if possible. Or if you could direct me to a location that may already have that information.

Btw. You guys have been very helpful. And I appreciate you giving your time to answer my questions.  I'm sure you answer the same things time and again.

Also. I typically view this forum from my phone while at work.  I will attempt to update my profile as soon as I can from a computer.

Thanks again.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 12, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> I need to locate my initial lab results. It has been several months since the values were given to me in hard copy. I also had twins two months ago, and work three jobs. Fortunately for me, we are able to lift at work at any time.  I will try to locate them (not the twins, I know where they are) over the next several days. Also. I was chastised by taking these PHs without knowing what I was putting in my body.  How do I know if I am buying safe and effective products for research? If I order clomid from a research site, is there potential for me to have my penis fall off? Lol, I am sorry about sounding needy, however, it would also be nice if there was a list and concise description of the chemicals PHs like the ones I posted. More so, how the names and chemicals relate to affecting the body's hormonal composition. That way I know how and why I f.ed up my body so effectively.  Maybe a thorough list of does and donts and the why of those.  Lol if possible. Or if you could direct me to a location that may already have that information.
> 
> Btw. You guys have been very helpful. And I appreciate you giving your time to answer my questions.  I'm sure you answer the same things time and again.
> 
> ...



Clomid is a SERM or selective estrogen receptor modulator. It acts by binding to estrogen receptors in various tissue. It's a mixed agonist/antagonist meaning in some tissue such as bones and with respect to blood lipids it acts as an agonist (or activates the receptor) and in other tissues such as the hypothalamus, fat, and breast it acts as an antagonist (or blocks the receptor from activating). It is useful In attempting restarts bc it blocks the action of estrogen on the hypothalamus which stimulates/imcreases endogenous testosterone production. It will increase the amplitude of LH secretion. LH or leutinizing hormone is produced in the pituitary gland and is picked up in the testicles which tells them to produce testosterone. 


I would get some more recent labs if possible to see what's going on right now. Here's a thread to help you get cheap and discreet blood work:

http://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/9303-How-to-get-accurate-testosterone-levels-results-from-blood-work

Your penis won't fall off by ordering from a research site. A research site uses a loophole in the law to sell liquid forms of certain compounds. 

I do t know of any comprehensive list of PHs, there are so many, but a general rule of thumb is every anabolic/androgenic steroid, designer steroid, and pro hormone will shut down your HPTA and natural testosterone production.


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## Anabolic Reality (Feb 12, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> I will see what I can do about acronyms but for now if you read something and don't know what it means just ask.
> 
> Go back to the doc and ask if instead of the trt if they will prescribe clomid. Clomid at 25mg eod over the course of 3 to 6 months will help the body start producing naturally again. Or if you plan to use steroids in the future take the trt but only if it's injections that you can do at home.
> 
> Then go back to the supplement shop and smash the owner in the head with a tire iron for giving you gyno. You might also punch yourself in the dick for taking something and having no clue how to properly or even what it is.



I'm ****ing sorry but this was absolutely hilarious!


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## EnRoute (Feb 13, 2014)

I called my urologist (not nephrologist, like I mentioned earlier,  that physician was for an assessment on the large amounts of creatinine in my urine). I did not get specific lab values, however,  I was told that my test levels had returned to a "normal" level during follow up testing. However the additional adipose tissue(gyno) is still an issue I would like to address. I have searched through multiple online sights for research nolvadex as recommended by this thread.  I was wondering what signs might indicate unsafe or false products from online sites?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> I called my urologist (not nephrologist, like I mentioned earlier,  that physician was for an assessment on the large amounts of creatinine in my urine). I did not get specific lab values, however,  I was told that my test levels had returned to a "normal" level during follow up testing. However the additional adipose tissue(gyno) is still an issue I would like to address. I have searched through multiple online sights for research nolvadex as recommended by this thread.  I was wondering what signs might indicate unsafe or false products from online sites?



I would ask the doctor for specific values and reference ranges. Some doctors operate under the thought that so long as you're in reference range your test levels are fine even if they're as low as a sedentary senior type II diabetic with cholesterol issues.

You have to be specific with regards to the gyno, is it gyno (a proliferation of the ductal cells in the breast) or adipose tissue (pseudogynecomastia). The former can be treated the matter can't but requires a decrease in body fat levels. Nolva or ralox will both help real gyno but not the pseudo version.


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## EnRoute (Feb 13, 2014)

I will request a hard copy of my lab results to see what end of the normal range I fall into. How do you differentiate between the two forms of gyno? I should note, that prior to the PH cycle, I had no additional fat tissue above my pectoral muscles. Three weeks into the cycle I began experiencing the following signs and symptoms:
Sporadic itching of the chest. 
Mild burning of nipples.
Increased tissue/edema noted under nipples and running to arm pits.
Post cycle; as pectoral muscle size decreased, shape of nipples noted to be augmented slightly. (Protruding out slightly more than pre cycle presentation)


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 13, 2014)

Fat tissue will have a different density than gynecomastic tissue. It will feel different to the touch and feel like a lump behind or close to the nipple area.


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## Yaya (Feb 13, 2014)

You forgot ATTB


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## snake (Feb 15, 2014)

J20 said:


> Should be stickied in a thread of its own! Imo anyways like beginners to aas/ hormones etc...



I vote MINI-STICKY!


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## grizzldsealpoacher (Feb 16, 2014)

Second sticky Pro Hormone mini horror story 

Its a terrible story bro I hope you learned a good lesson . I also learned the hard way but you will recover and get better. Depending on where you are located you may be able to have your own lab work done with out a doc ..

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lp/Female_Hormone_Testing.php

thats the test you want to order. Also google for a coupon you will find a 15% off one somewhere for it 

Post up your results here and the vets will let you know how your doing on your recovery . I then would find a doc that is sympathetic to your needs. The guy your seeing now is going by the book you need a guy that will go by how you feeling and help you with your needs . I would do that and try and get pharm grade chems b4 I go underground for hcg/clomid etc. And worse to worse if you cant find a doc to help I am sure you can figure out how to get what you need script free np just would try and do it legit first

good luck bro I feel your pain


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## snake (Feb 16, 2014)

Why is the testing always under "Female Hormone Testing"! That throws soooo many guys off.


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 16, 2014)

snake said:


> Why is the testing always under "Female Hormone Testing"! That throws soooo many guys off.



Because if you get the same tests done except it's called the male hormone panel it costs like 200


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## EnRoute (Feb 16, 2014)

When I requested liver.kidney.and test labs checked, I also requested estrogen levels assessed. Not sure if this is typical, however,  they informed me that they do not test estrogen levels.  I have very highly recommended physicians, i think, however,  that they do not understand workings of prohormone or aas. . . Lol, I have another question.  If I were to have a thorough physical exam for employment, what is it they look for in lab results to determine a positive for aas use or prohormone use? Also. If taking nolva  or clomid, do your results on augmented test levels come back in the drug testing? While I was taking PHs my test levels were next to nothing. Is it the same for aas? Can they test for the synthetic compounds replacing free floating test?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 17, 2014)

They can test for PEDs of course but not on a typical pre-employment drug test. That's for THC, opiates, amphetamines, methamphetamines, etc. Recreational drugs not AAS.


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## snake (Feb 17, 2014)

They can test for anything that you submit to. Most employers want the standard recreational drug testing. They could care less if your total testosterone levels exceed 1,000. You have to remember, they pay for the test and it is insurance on their part if anything were to happen. The less you know the less you are responsible for are some cases.


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## EnRoute (Feb 22, 2014)

My potential employer asked about steroid use in the background investigation.  Not sure if that is the extent of it. Or if the physical would screen for elevated levels since they were questioning about usage.  . . What lab values in urinalysis are altered during and after cycle? If urinating more byproducts from cycling, would this prompt for further testing or denial for employment?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 22, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> My potential employer asked about steroid use in the background investigation.  Not sure if that is the extent of it. Or if the physical would screen for elevated levels since they were questioning about usage.  . . What lab values in urinalysis are altered during and after cycle? If urinating more byproducts from cycling, would this prompt for further testing or denial for employment?



Epi test to test ratios for one can be tested in urine but they could also look for metabolites of each compound also since almost all AAS are primarily excreted through urine


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## anna (Feb 22, 2014)

thank you so much for the acronyms !! dont know if you realise it but there's probably a hole bunch of people tat ill find this very useful..


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## anna (Feb 22, 2014)

hole = acronym for whole


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 22, 2014)

anna said:


> thank you so much for the acronyms !! dont know if you realise it but there's probably a hole bunch of people tat ill find this very useful..



There's a list for the most common ones we use. Familiarize yourself with it and if you have any questions just ask. No one will blame you for asking. 

http://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/11005-Common-Acronyms

Idk (I don't know) about you but to continually type every acronym I use out would cripple my fingers hence the reason for using them in the first place.


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## EnRoute (Feb 26, 2014)

It appears that I have a significant chance of new employment. It may be anywhere from 2weeks-2month before job offer and health physical. This job would most likely assess urine and blood for lab values.  I am currently into a PH cycle of epistane two weeks. What should be done in order to ensure proper labs so that I am not denied employment for abnormal findings.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> It appears that I have a significant chance of new employment. It may be anywhere from 2weeks-2month before job offer and health physical. This job would most likely assess urine and blood for lab values.  I am currently into a PH cycle of epistane two weeks. What should be done in order to ensure proper labs so that I am not denied employment for abnormal findings.



Don't smoke weed crack or dope, don't use amphetamines or methamphetamines and don't be under he influence of alcohol...


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## Cobra Strike (Feb 26, 2014)

I might have missed something but what kind of job is this? I ask this because I am trying to figure out why they would even ask you about steroid use? Ive had some scrutinized jobs before that have never even brought up steroid use...in fact I have never had one possible employer bring up steroid use on any level.


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## Tren4Life (Feb 26, 2014)

I just took a pre employment drug test about 3 hours after 2cc of npp and 1 of mast and 1 of test. No problems


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## EnRoute (Feb 27, 2014)

Its not the drug test that is a concern.  It is the blood draw and routine urine labs.I can be viewed as unhealthy and they would not want to insure me. Putting water on hot shit.


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## EnRoute (Feb 27, 2014)

I only ask because this is important for my family and I.


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## selleck (Mar 1, 2014)

good luck..all these forums are brutal!


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## will (Mar 2, 2014)

Ur on ph not on illegal aas. I'm sure what ur on is probably not on the banned list. I wouldnt worry about about any drug test because ur not doing anything that is against the law


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## bronco (Mar 2, 2014)

EnRoute said:


> Its not the drug test that is a concern.  It is the blood draw and routine urine labs.I can be viewed as unhealthy and they would not want to insure me. Putting water on hot shit.



Why would they draw blood? If your that worried about it then don't cycle anything, wait till after you get tested


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## will (Mar 2, 2014)

Risk vs reward. Sounds to me like u dont need to be doing anything cause ur worrying an awful lot


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