# Casein or whey before a workout?



## october110 (Feb 23, 2014)

Whats best before a workout. Whey protein or casein protein? I know the whey takes 2 hours too metabolize whilst the casein takes 4 hours. Knowing that, which one would you recommend?


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## yeti (Feb 23, 2014)

whey. 
Ideally intraworkout will be: Highly branched cyclic dextrin and either hyrdolyzed casein, hydro whey, or EAA/BCAAs

But really, what matters most is your entire day, week's worth of nutrition. That and intraworkout.


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## Bro Bundy (Feb 23, 2014)

real food...eggs and oats


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Whats best before a workout. Whey protein or casein protein? I know the whey takes 2 hours too metabolize whilst the casein takes 4 hours. Knowing that, which one would you recommend?



Your numbers are off but who says you MUST eat before a workout? Try both and see which you prefer.


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## Deidre (Feb 23, 2014)

Brother Bundy said:


> real food...eggs and oats



weird, if I don't opt for a shake, i will eat eggs and a small bowl of oatmeal too, pre or post w.o.


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## october110 (Feb 23, 2014)

Sorry I forgot to mention I train first thing in the morning so its my breakfast/pre workout meal


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Sorry I forgot to mention I train first thing in the morning so its my breakfast/pre workout meal



That really makes little difference though. There are plenty of people who prefer fasted training....


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## october110 (Feb 23, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> That really makes little difference though. There are plenty of people who prefer fasted training....


 
Surely muscle growth would lack with no energy like that?


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## Deidre (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Sorry I forgot to mention I train first thing in the morning so its my breakfast/pre workout meal



Since that's the case, if it were me, I'd have casein before bed, and then a whey shake pre workout/for breakfast. There was a time when I worked out early am before work, and I tended to do so, fasted. I sometimes liked it, sometimes I didn't. Many choices before you!  Do what works best for _you_.


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## losieloos (Feb 23, 2014)

None. Whole food my friend.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Surely muscle growth would lack with no energy like that?



You're assuming a pre workout meal affects training directly...it doesn't.


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## october110 (Feb 23, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You're assuming a pre workout meal affects training directly...it doesn't.



No not at all. But training fasted with no carbs for fuel etc, surely that would hinder growth??


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> No not at all. But training fasted with no carbs for fuel etc, surely that would hinder growth??



The body is efficient at making endogenous glucose from sources besides carbs. 

Now the assumption is that carbs = fuel = growth which again isn't the case. In this case what would hinder growth is not meeting your total nutrient needs for the day, not whether you are carbs before working out. Don't misunderstand me though, some people cannot train efficiently while fasted...they cannot adapt to it. Conversely others train much better fasted and can't adapt to training while in a fed state or train efficiently when they're full. Assuming all other variables are equal, neither would gain more than the other. The key is finding the right timing of food that works for you which is where my suggestion "try both and see which you prefer" comes in. I can train just as efficiently fasted as I can full. 

Furthermore, an overnight fast will not fully deplete the body of minerals, vitamins, nutrients or glycogen stores. So when we say "train fasted" we don't mean "train without nutrients".


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## NbleSavage (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Sorry I forgot to mention I train first thing in the morning so its my breakfast/pre workout meal



Cup of coffee with 40 grams of raw, unprocessed honey and I'm ready to rip sh1t up.


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## Seeker (Feb 23, 2014)

If you're weight training 1st am I would recommend a good power breakfast an hour before you hit the gym.  I train on the weekends in the morning and my meal is a nice bowl of oatmeal, 6 eggs, large glass of milk and some fruit. 

If my plan is to only do cardio then I would have a whey shake with about 40 grams of protein, some fish oil caps, and caffein. Then sip on bcaa during.


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## october110 (Feb 23, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> The body is efficient at making endogenous glucose from sources besides carbs.
> 
> Now the assumption is that carbs = fuel = growth which again isn't the case. In this case what would hinder growth is not meeting your total nutrient needs for the day, not whether you are carbs before working out. Don't misunderstand me though, some people cannot train efficiently while fasted...they cannot adapt to it. Conversely others train much better fasted and can't adapt to training while in a fed state or train efficiently when they're full. Assuming all other variables are equal, neither would gain more than the other. The key is finding the right timing of food that works for you which is where my suggestion "try both and see which you prefer" comes in. I can train just as efficiently fasted as I can full.
> 
> Furthermore, an overnight fast will not fully deplete the body of minerals, vitamins, nutrients or glycogen stores. So when we say "train fasted" we don't mean "train without nutrients".



Ok I see where your coming from now. Thanks for the advice, il give fasted ago and see how I get on :thumbup:


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## NbleSavage (Feb 23, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> The body is efficient at making endogenous glucose from sources besides carbs.
> 
> Now the assumption is that carbs = fuel = growth which again isn't the case. In this case what would hinder growth is not meeting your total nutrient needs for the day, not whether you are carbs before working out. Don't misunderstand me though, some people cannot train efficiently while fasted...they cannot adapt to it. Conversely others train much better fasted and can't adapt to training while in a fed state or train efficiently when they're full. Assuming all other variables are equal, neither would gain more than the other. The key is finding the right timing of food that works for you which is where my suggestion "try both and see which you prefer" comes in. I can train just as efficiently fasted as I can full.
> 
> Furthermore, an overnight fast will not fully deplete the body of minerals, vitamins, nutrients or glycogen stores. So when we say "train fasted" we don't mean "train without nutrients".



Doc slaying the BroScience Dragon once more


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## Seeker (Feb 23, 2014)

I don't agree at all with with doc is saying but that's just me,


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## NbleSavage (Feb 23, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I don't agree at all with with doc is saying but that's just me,



Fair 'nuff. Which aspect do you disagree with?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

NbleSavage said:


> Doc slaying the BroScience Dragon once more



I wish I had a flying dragon to ride off into the sunset with and Seeker riding shotgun...or in my lap 



Seeker said:


> I don't agree at all with with doc is saying but that's just me,



You have found the timing that lest you train most optimally. There's nothing wrong with that. Therein lies my point, your timing doesn't DIRECTLY influence your progress only your training. Which is why I said find the timing that works best to let you keep your intensity high in the gym. This is an indirect factor though. 















This gentleman trains before dawn and does so after drinking black coffee. Nothing else. He found he can train fasted and still make progress. 


I still love you Seek, even if you want to steal my keyboard (iPad actually) away from me hahaha


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## Seeker (Feb 23, 2014)

I come from the old school of hard eating and training. I do and suggest what has worked for me and countless others for the past 30 years. I once tried training fasted in the morning. I nearly fell on my face. I love doc, he's one of the smartest people I know but I have and I know he has no issues with me disagreeing with him. If you wanna grow and get large, you gots to eat! That's my philosophy.


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## Seeker (Feb 23, 2014)

Sometimes science can just kiss my ass.


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## Azog (Feb 23, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I come from the old school of hard eating and training. I do and suggest what has worked for me and countless others for the past 30 years. I once tried training fasted in the morning. I nearly fell on my face. I love doc, he's one of the smartest people I know but I have and I know he has no issues with me disagreeing with him. If you wanna grow and get large, you gots to eat! That's my philosophy.



I'm gonna agree here. I have tried training first thing AM without any food in me...no bueno for me. I thought I was gonna go hypo and pass out. I got light headed and shaky as hell. Only started feeling OK after I got my PWO meal in.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

Seeker said:


> I come from the old school of hard eating and training. I do and suggest what has worked for me and countless others for the past 30 years. I once tried training fasted in the morning. I nearly fell on my face. I love doc, he's one of the smartest people I know but I have and I know he has no issues with me disagreeing with him. If you wanna grow and get large, you gots to eat! That's my philosophy.



Seeker I will never have an issue with you. Ever. You are one of my favorite ppl on here and you disagreeing doesn't change that. 

But this post has proved my point...you tried both and found which one works for you the best. For myself and many others, we don't NEED to eat before training and in doing so we don't fall on our face. This issue is highly individualistic. You are different than me who's different than Joe Blow down the street. There is still no direct influence on body composition or growth which the science backs up. The only difference (assuming in both cases total daily needs are met) will be the intensity you carry into your training which again isn't a direct mechanism of action. It's the training that made the difference not the nutrition. You can just as easily eat and not train...does the meal timing have an effect now? No. If you can't apply this "theory" universally, then it doesn't hold up. Hence, timing is based on individual preference and response, to be optimized for one's own energy levels. In fact, training in a fasted state has been shown to have a super compensatory effect similar to overreaching in training negating the purported cons of fasted training. 



> "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session."
> 
> In other words, increased anabolic activity seen post-workout is a compensatory response to the increased catabolism that occurs during fasted state training. In the end, there is no net difference in muscle growth at the end of the day.



This is worded better than I could put it



> Strength/endurance in the gym is individual. Some people train just as hard after an overnight fast. Therefore, you can not generalize nutrient timing as being beneficial for everyone. If it works for you, then by all means. Like I mentioned, it's completely preferential.
> 
> Even if you could generalize pre-workout nutrition for everyone, it would be an indirect benefit to body composition. Even if nutrient timing did allow you to train harder, it would still be correct to say that it has no direct impact on body composition.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 23, 2014)

Azog said:


> I'm gonna agree here. I have tried training first thing AM without any food in me...no bueno for me. I thought I was gonna go hypo and pass out. I got light headed and shaky as hell. Only started feeling OK after I got my PWO meal in.



But you guys are both proving my point...it wasn't the nutrition that affected your body composition it was the training or lack thereof. This is not the fault of anything but an individualistic response to something that can only INDIRECTLY affect body comp. you tried both and found which you prefer that neither makes it universal nor makes it wrong. What is wrong is to imply your experiences apply universally and absolutely when they don't hold true in that context.


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## Tren4Life (Feb 23, 2014)

Okay so I see a lot of info in this thread but my experience is that I need 1 cup of oatmeal 1 cup of blueberries 1 cup of coffee  1 cup of muscle egg and a banana or I run out of gas before I'm done. I used to do protein shakes and realized after coming here to the board that my system works better with whole foods. All those shake just gave me gas.


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## Assassin32 (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm with Seek. I have to be full to train. I feel much stronger that way. If I trained fasted I would be weak, crabby, tired and probably pass out. In a perfect world I would train at 10 pm after a whole day of eating every time. But good discussion fellas. Great info. Thank you.


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 23, 2014)

Pre-Workout
Poptarts

Intra-workout
Poptarts (unless I feel pukey I will skip em)

Post Workout
Poptarts


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## DieYoungStrong (Feb 23, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Pre-Workout
> Poptarts
> 
> Intra-workout
> ...



Hes not kidding. I trained with him today, and he even brought me poptarts. Delicious too.


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 23, 2014)

october110 said:


> Surely muscle growth would lack with no energy like that?


Absolutely not. I've been training in the morning after a cup of coffee and some PWO for the past 9 years and have no problem with energy or making progress. As long as u eat enough throughout the day your fine.


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 24, 2014)

Assassin32 said:


> I'm with Seek. I have to be full to train. I feel much stronger that way. If I trained fasted I would be weak, crabby, tired and probably pass out. In a perfect world I would train at 10 pm after a whole day of eating every time. But good discussion fellas. Great info. Thank you.


This is a good post right here. What's the difference if u eat all your food after training or before? Besides personal preference I think both are the same. But like others have said find which one is the best for u.


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## Assassin32 (Feb 24, 2014)

PillarofBalance said:


> Pre-Workout
> Poptarts
> 
> Intra-workout
> ...


You and your goddamn poptarts. So what did I eat post workout on Friday a protein shake, a banana, and ..........wait for it..........****in poptarts. God dammit POB our pantry is now full of poptarts. And man did I forget how good those sons of bitches are!


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2014)

ok, I've been holding out on this topic for a while but I'm gonna give you my .02 on it. This new craze about " If it fits your macros" IIFYM thats going around. Yes it works but here is why I am not crazy about it. Now before I go on I'm not an obsessed restrictive eater because i have learned over the  years that "CLEAN" eating is not as hard or as complicated as many people make it out to be.

now in regards to IIFYM I believe that eating whole foods with minimal ingredients help the body function optimally. I believe that by eating processed foods you are not doing your body any good especially when on the sauce. Our bodies are not made to break down these ingredients. 

what's starting to happen with IIFYM is I'm seeing people get to extreme where all they are eating is "junk" food all day. This is a complete misunderstanding of IIFYM.

In reality, to hit your macros, you're still going to have eat pretty healthy throughout out the day and and the most  OPTIMAL method health wise is to spread your meals out. this TIMHO.


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## Rumpy (Feb 24, 2014)

DieYoungStrong said:


> Hes not kidding. I trained with him today, and he even brought me poptarts. Delicious too.



Does he keep a toaster at the gym?  Wait, I don't want to know.


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## SAD (Feb 24, 2014)

Nobody has mentioned this so I will.  A 50/50 blend of whey isolate and casein is optimal for protein synthesis.  That said, I agree that you need to find out what's best for you.  If you like to drink a shake an hour preworkout, then try 50/50 wpi/casein blend.  If you like whole foods preworkout, then find out what's best for you.  If you like to train fasted, then do that.

I've tried a BUNCH of different combos, and I don't really notice any difference.  Post workout, I slam either 50/50 casein/wpi, or a half-gallon of whole chocolate milk (without high fructose corn syrup.)

Conquer yourself through wise experimentation.


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## j2048b (Feb 24, 2014)

SAD said:


> Nobody has mentioned this so I will.  A 50/50 blend of whey isolate and casein is optimal for protein synthesis.  That said, I agree that you need to find out what's best for you.  If you like to drink a shake an hour preworkout, then try 50/50 wpi/casein blend.  If you like whole foods preworkout, then find out what's best for you.  If you like to train fasted, then do that.
> 
> I've tried a BUNCH of different combos, and I don't really notice any difference.  Post workout, I slam either 50/50 casein/wpi, or a half-gallon of whole chocolate milk (without high fructose corn syrup.)
> 
> Conquer yourself through wise experimentation.



THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!^^^^^ always mix my whey and cas! Best of both quick and long proteins!


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## Azog (Feb 24, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> But you guys are both proving my point...it wasn't the nutrition that affected your body composition it was the training or lack thereof. This is not the fault of anything but an individualistic response to something that can only INDIRECTLY affect body comp. you tried both and found which you prefer that neither makes it universal nor makes it wrong. What is wrong is to imply your experiences apply universally and absolutely when they don't hold true in that context.



I agree 100%. Everyone needs to experiment and find what works for them. It gets said a lot, but no 2 people respond to food/gear/training/supps/etc. the same way. For example, my training partner has the exact same routine and cardio as I do. Yet, he manages to out weigh me despite eating damn near 2000 less calories. He also seems to be responding to low doses of gear much better than I did.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 24, 2014)

Azog said:


> I agree 100%. Everyone needs to experiment and find what works for them. It gets said a lot, but no 2 people respond to food/gear/training/supps/etc. the same way. For example, my training partner has the exact same routine and cardio as I do. Yet, he manages to out weigh me despite eating damn near 2000 less calories. He also seems to be responding to low doses of gear much better than I did.



There's a lot that goes into metabolism and I mean ALOT. I can only really touch upon the basics but there are new hormones or peptides or something or other they're researching currently that can help explain things. You have to understand your body weight is primarily regulated by leptin and ghrelin as well as your p-ratio, thyroid hormones, peptide YY, etc. They act to keep you alive in extreme conditions. Diet down too much and they act to preserve life by increasing hunger and decreasing fat loss. Bulk up too much and they'll do the opposite. They're purpose is to keep you alive not let you be sub8% all the time or carrying 280lns of lbm. You can't really fight these hormones in the long run as evidenced by things like the fact that you need to cruise and blast to maintain extreme amounts of muscle mass while carrying little body fat and the Minnesota Starvation experiment which prove how hard the body fights back to what it seems starvation.There are a few tricks you can use to manipulate them acutely but they will always continue to fight back. What's important to know is that even with these hormones acting against you, your body is still under the law of thermodynamics: calories in vs calories out. 

You're absolutely right no two people will respond exactly the same but that will it affect the universal laws of nutrition and physiology. Your friend may have better p-ratio so a higher percentage of calories will go to build muscle vs fat on a bulk. He may have better leptin sensitivity which controls his appetite better. His thyroid may be more responsive to leptin and ghrelin meaning his metabolism can be faster then yours and the possibilities are endless. Nobody completely understands them, even the primary researchers performing the studies. We do know enough though to accomplish our goals. My point in this constructive debate is just to show there are a few truths we need to be held accountable to and the rest (since we don't have science to definitively tell us yet) is up for experimentation by each and every individual. 

Don't lose sight of the goal/future and try to micromanage the present. If you work well on 8meals so be it. If you work better on 2, does the 8meal recommendation apply bc bodybuilder's or supplement companies want it to? If you train better fasted have it, if you need food in your gut EAT! Saying what one NEEDS to do is very different than what you CAN do to get the same results. Proof can be found in all the responses in here: some like fasted training and others like you and Seeker feel light headed on an empty stomach. At the end of the day it's your hard work and consistency that pays off. NO diet or training will work if you can't keep it up day in day out. So to that end I wish everyone luck in achieving their goals.


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## Surfliftsleep (Feb 24, 2014)

Yo doc I have a cup of low fat cottage cheese with half cup blueberries and half cup oatmeal 2 hours pre workout what do you think about that, should I change the protein source?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 24, 2014)

Surfliftsleep said:


> Yo doc I have a cup of low fat cottage cheese with half cup blueberries and half cup oatmeal 2 hours pre workout what do you think about that, should I change the protein source?



My point through this whole thing is if you keep your calories and macros at what they need to be for the whole day, the timing of them or their sources is irrelevant to body composition through direct pathways. What does matter is eating something you enjoy when YOU NEED/WANT to eat, make sure it fits into your nutritional needs, and how it affects your training personally. I don't eat ch**se whatsoever (high five Don Draco ) so that's a horrible source for me. I'd advise you to throw it away, don't even feed it to your dog lol. But you're not me and you eat different things. This foods look like good whole foods, hopefully they fit your macros, if that's what you enjoy when you enjoy eating it, and if it lets you get a great training session why would you change it???? 

Seeker and i SEEKERetly agre on lots of things. He comes from one direction and I come from the other. We both know moderation is important and necessary in anything so even though we come from different sides, we still get to the middle where we meet


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## Surfliftsleep (Feb 24, 2014)

Yeah I totally agree with everything your saying bro I've trained both fasted in the morning and after 4 good meals in the arvo and find I make great results either way it's just lifestyle choices that make me have to change when I train, I also agree that it's personally preference on what you eat it's like telling someone they have to do it "this" way and no other everyone's different and what works for one guy doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone else, so yeah people need to stop being sheep and experiment with what works for them then stick to it!


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## JAXNY (Feb 25, 2014)

The only thing I do on an empty stomach is cardio. and the reason for that is that there is no food in your stomach to use for fuel so your body will use stored fat for energy accelerating your fat burning process. but the answer to your question would be Whey. you just slept 8 hours with no food now you want to hit the gym and put intense physical demand on your body. you need to utilize the protein that will get into you the quickest, Whey. although a good breakfast before would be the best. if no time for breakfast then a protien shake and some carbs, couple hand full of raisins ect.. will benefit you better than nothing. you should at least have better energy and a decent pump rather than you had not eaten  at all. then again everyone is different but this has worked well for me when i train in the mornings.


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## SFGiants (Feb 25, 2014)

If you must have a shake 50/50 of both is best as Whey alone anytime is a waste of money and only used in a 50/50 to thin the casein out.


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## Rip (Feb 25, 2014)

Whey or a mix. Casein breaks down slow, but whey wil be readily available to supply amino acids when needed.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 25, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> The only thing I do on an empty stomach is cardio. and the reason for that is that there is no food in your stomach to use for fuel so your body will use stored fat for energy accelerating your fat burning process. but the answer to your question would be Whey. you just slept 8 hours with no food now you want to hit the gym and put intense physical demand on your body. you need to utilize the protein that will get into you the quickest, Whey. although a good breakfast before would be the best. if no time for breakfast then a protien shake and some carbs, couple hand full of raisins ect.. will benefit you better than nothing. you should at least have better energy and a decent pump rather than you had not eaten  at all. then again everyone is different but this has worked well for me when i train in the mornings.



You do realize the benefits of fasted cardio are vastly overstated?


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## JAXNY (Feb 25, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You do realize the benefits of fasted cardio are vastly overstated?


I don't think so. makes perfect sense to me and I do it every year and have been for over 20 years. works perfect.


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## JAXNY (Feb 25, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You do realize the benefits of fasted cardio are vastly overstated?


but please explain....


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## PillarofBalance (Feb 25, 2014)

Docd187123 said:


> You do realize the benefits of fasted cardio are vastly overstated?



It's one of those things where the books say something but guys have been doing it and dont mind it and get a benefit from it. Usually not worth even discussing. I tried it once but I ate the treadmill.


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> I don't think so. makes perfect sense to me and I do it every year and have been for over 20 years. works perfect.



1) The issue here is you can't prove causation...is it the fast cardio that is working perfect and doing everything you said or is it a SMALL piece to the puzzle? Would it be safe to assume that fasted cardio will not make or break a diet? If you answer no then you'd be able to show examples where ppl who are dieting without results added fasted cardio (and kept the exact same dietary protocol) and suddenly lost SIGNIFICANT weight and/or fat. In all my years doing this, researching this, reading about it on PubMed, from accomplished authors and nutritionists, etc I have yet to see 1 single RELIABLE report of this ever happening. This basically tells me that the affects of fasted cardio are slim to none. 

2) The next issue is who, if any at all, would fasted cardio benefit. Maybe it benefits some populations but not others. This is the case here. Fasted cardio MAY, and I say MAY, have benefits to those who are already pretty lean.

 Fat loss is about 3 things: mobilization, transport, and oxidation. Mobilization means getting stored fat (fatty acids) out of the fat cells. Primarily it's a function of insulin and catecholamines but GH, cortisol and some other hormones play secondary and tertiary roles. Transport is about moving the fatty acids within the blood stream. They're bound to albumin which delivers them to where they have to go. Oxidation is about the actual burning of fatty acids by muscle, liver, heart, etc. 

Now in obese people oxidation is the impairment preventing fat loss. They have tons of fatty acids in the bloodstream but for whatever reason the oxidation process is impaired (usually excess calories, sedentary lifestyles, etc). Fasted cardio will not do anything for this population over normal cardio or HIIT for that matter since it's the oxidation that's hindered not the mobilization (remember, your claim is that fasted cardio helps with MOBILIZATION or using fat as a substrate for energy production). In your average person (~13-20% BF), fasted cardio still has no added benefits bc this population doesn't have many issues from the mobilization end or transport end. Mobilization is not an issue bc at these levels the body is not yet begun to fight back against dieting by down-regulating metabolism hormones and transport isn't an issue bc you've not yet begun to target troublesome fat loss areas, you're just losing overall fat. Finally for lean individuals, it's not the oxidation or transport that's the problem but the mobilization. This is due to your body fighting back and attempting to restore homeostasis. Getting fatty acids in the blood is the problem and so is blood flow in general. In this population fasted cardio MAY have added benefit but the benefit still isn't earth shaking and will not overcome a diet that's not conducive to your goals. 

3) the third issue has to do with time frames. If you're looking just beyond the tip of your nose or in the acute term then yes, fasted cardio will certainly use fatty acids as an energy substrate. But are we concerned with things in the short term or long term? If you look at the big picture, the body's fat loss doesn't happen over a 20-40min fasted cardio session. Fat loss happens over days, weeks, months, etc. The body will constantly go through fat loss and fat gain moments but the NET balance won't be affected in the interim. Net fat loss is determined over days, weeks  and months. Why is it important that fat is the substrate for energy over a ~30min cardio session when the rest of the day (23hrs and 30min) it's not? That's only ~2% of the day, what about the rest of the day? You're still storing and burning fat. Calorie or energy balance is what will ultimately determine NET fat loss or gain? Not the 20-40min you were on the treadmill running fasted. Furthermore, there's plenty of evidence showing nitrogen retention goes down during and after fasted cardio. When net nitrogen retention. Goes down it means you're burning it off through oxidizing muscle tissue...catabolism. Granted it's not losing 5lbs of muscle in a single session but it is something to take i to consideration. IMO, that's a trade off I'm not ok with. I dr at her eat and save the minuscule amount of muscle I would have lost than Los that minuscule muscle for POSSIBLY losing a MINUSCULE amount of extra fat. 

You also have to take into consideration intensity. Can you do cardio with the highest intensity while fasted? If you are you're a better man than I bc there's no way in hell I can give my all in a cardio session without some food in me. I believe most people are the same. 

Here is Will Brinks explaining this issue. He is one of the foremost nutritionists in the world:






4) Finally and probably most importantly you have to look at the latest research coming out. The primary research that drives the perpetuation of the fasted-cardio myth is over 30yrs old. This is the study it was based on if you want to look it up. 

2: Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.

3: De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.

4:Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1:E268-75.

Basically they found: that at ranges of 25-50% of VO2 max, the ingestion of carbohydrates impeded fatty acid being used as the substrate for energy. They did not however prove or show that TOTAL fat loss throughout the day or event the specific cardio session was improved or worsened



			
				Alan Aragon said:
			
		

> As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [2]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [3]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [4].



^^^the above is also based on research done on beginner trainees. This is extremely pertinent bc training (and the more advanced and higher intensity as strength and power levels go up) increases the body's ability to store calories as muscle over fat and increases the ability to pull calories from fat when losing weight vs muscle. In other words, advancing your training/lifting will have the same effect you proposed in the beginning...allowing more fat acids to be used as fuel even though this still doesn't override the point I made in number 3. 

Newer and better research has shown though that this is not the full picture. Here are some relevant studies:

7: Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.

8: Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.

9: Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.

10: Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6. 

^^^what they found was that in TRAINED individuals and/or individuals who do cardio with decent or high intensity fatty acid oxidization and mobilization was NOT hindered by ingestion of carbs for at least the first 80-120min of exercise. Basically if you're trained or doing anything above low intensity steady state cardio (LISS) carbs won't impede fat loss. 



			
				Alan Aragon said:
			
		

> In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [7,8]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.
> 
> Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [9]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.
> 
> Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [10]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.



To sum up the findings:



			
				Alan Aragon said:
			
		

> Summing Up the Research Findings
> 
> • At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
> • At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise
> ...



I stand by my statement: the benefits of fasted cardio are vastly overstated. If you are an untrained individual AND you're doing low intensity cardio or you're extremely lean fasted cardio MAY possibly have SLIGHT benefits. In all other situations though it makes no added difference. If this is what you prefer to do keep on doing it if it's getting you results. If you don't or want another way of doing things eat carbs and work your ass off, you won't lose anything by doing cardio in a fed state. At the end of the day it really boils down to CALORIES BURNED and it is fact that more people burn more calories when doing cardio in a fed state.


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## ECKSRATED (Feb 26, 2014)

God damn doc. Lol


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

ECKSRATED said:


> God damn doc. Lol



I had time on my hands and POB wasn't offering hand jobs


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

DocD  LOL...thank you for that lengthy explanation. I wasnt expecting that. No seriously bro I really do appreciate it. Although I'm still going to disagree.   There will always be some one out there trying to prove something wrong. one year sugar, caffeine and wine are bad for you 10 years later someone says they are good for you after all. ect.. believe me Ive been doing this longer then some members on this board have been alive. Ive done things through trial and error and ive done things many different ways until i find what has the best effect. I was fortunate at a young age when I first started out to have learned from some of the best, pro body builders and real trainers. I have always taken my advice from the guy in the gym who has the physic like I would want, who has the results, not some so called personal trainer of today's time who looks like a muffin. 
   who knows what kind of subjects are being tested in these so called scientific experiments and what other things they may be doing to that could tweak results. 
all as I know brother is that I have done it both ways fasted and not fasted and I always most certainly always got the best results fasted. significant results. 
  Now, I never suggest doing a fasted cardio during any part of the day other than first thing in the morning upon waking. Starving the body in the afternoon or evening to do a fasted cardio is damaging. also, I only do a fasted cardio 12 weeks out of the year when im in my diet mode to shred up and that is like 5 a.m. every morning for 12 weeks then I workout later in the day or evening. the rest of the year I do my cardio after my workouts. 
now DocD, no disrespect, im really not trying to come off as a smart ass or anything like that, and I do appreciate your info. but your guy Will Brinks im sure is a very knowledgeable guy but by looking at his picture he certainly doesn't practice what he preaches and if he does I don't like his results. I on the other hand am certainly not as knowledgeable scientifically as he is im sure but I do practice what I preach and i have the results year after year to prove it.  I would love to be in this guys scientific study, my fat loss methods against his, Im certain ill come out with the most fat loss and least muscle loss. 
I am no way trying to force my method on anyone here, I am just offering my advice through my own scientific trial and error experience of over 20 years. but by all means every body is different so try different things as I did until you find out what works best for you. fasted cardio isnt easy, and if its easy it isnt working. I cant imagine getting any better results than from what Ive been doing. when im ripped im ripped as ripped can get. ....now that we've high jacked this thread ill say good night. LOL


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> DocD  LOL...thank you for that lengthy explanation. I wasnt expecting that. No seriously bro I really do appreciate it. Although I'm still going to disagree.   There will always be some one out there trying to prove something wrong. one year sugar, caffeine and wine are bad for you 10 years later someone says they are good for you after all. ect.. believe me Ive been doing this longer then some members on this board have been alive. Ive done things through trial and error and ive done things many different ways until i find what has the best effect. I was fortunate at a young age when I first started out to have learned from some of the best, pro body builders and real trainers. I have always taken my advice from the guy in the gym who has the physic like I would want, who has the results, not some so called personal trainer of today's time who looks like a muffin.
> who knows what kind of subjects are being tested in these so called scientific experiments and what other things they may be doing to that could tweak results.
> all as I know brother is that I have done it both ways fasted and not fasted and I always most certainly always got the best results fasted. significant results.
> Now, I never suggest doing a fasted cardio during any part of the day other than first thing in the morning upon waking. Starving the body in the afternoon or evening to do a fasted cardio is damaging. also, I only do a fasted cardio 12 weeks out of the year when im in my diet mode to shred up and that is like 5 a.m. every morning for 12 weeks then I workout later in the day or evening. the rest of the year I do my cardio after my workouts.
> ...



And that's where your fatal error comes in...you judge knowledge on looks. Will Brinks graduated Harvard. The bodybuilder you look to for advice graduated...??? Not saying they don't know anything but they also haven't researched it either. Body builders are typically the WORST source of info bc they will push what the supplement companies want them to push, they will push what they do WHEN ITS NOT APPLICABLE TO ME AND YOU, and they rely on others for their info just as much as you and I do. 

So you basically proved my point didn't you? You only do fasted cardio when you're dieting down and getting extremely lean...which I stated MAY have an added benefit. To say fasted cardio is damaging at any other time besides morning but not damaging during the morning implies some sort of physiological change that happens during the day. Would you elaborate on that and what you mean and why? 

I made this point as number one: correlation does not equal causation. You've shown association and it's just that, a simple association. It could have been due to any number of variables that weren't accounted for. This is the reason why scientific data (when applicable, repeatable, and verifiable) is much better than empirical or anecdotal data form body builders or magazines...you can isolate variables in a study, you have extremely sensitive equipment to measure even. Minute changes, you have multiple eyes watching over everything, YOU TEST FOR PLACEBO, you use statistics to find statistical significant which is the only thing that proves cause and effect. A simple association. Cannot prove this unfortunately. 

I am not saying you're forcing your method on anyone brother. You gave your opinions as opinions and that's fine. I'm simply saying that in the majority, most people won't benefit any more than with regular cardio. Unless you have any studies I or Will Brinks, Alan Aragon, Kyle McDonald, Jaime Hale, Brad Schoenfiled, etc have missed, I believe the facts speak for themselves. Do I think it's wrong to do fasted cardio, on the whole no of course not. Would I advise it to everyone, no bc it can be just as detrimental in certain cases as it can be helpful in others. Again, in the end consistency will create more of an impact than the type of cardio. So long as you do it when needed who really cares what type it is. You've gotten great results doing it so. Congrats on getting to you goals! Have a good night brother!


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

IM not exactly saying that I judge knowledge based on looks, Im just saying I prefer to get my knowledge based on looks. Yes from the guys that that have the results and know how they got it rather than the guy who says he knows but does not have the results to show it, now true it doesn't mean he doesn't know, but my time is valuable and im going with  what my eyes tell me. 
the only advice I take from pro body builders is training advice and methods and dieting. dont get me wrong brother I love science and it was also my favorite subject, ive got nothing against scientific data, as long as its correct. just because fasted cardio in the morning is old school doesn't make it not effective or obsolete. they say their study doesn't prove any benefit, im saying me and many others that have physically done it both ways says that it does. but their study doesn't say not doing fasted cardio yields any better results. Brother when a scientific study come out and shows me a way that yields better results ill be more than happy to accept their method. 
Yes I only do and recommend doing fasted cardio when dieting down to lean out to the maximum in a short period of time. it will yield quicker results. 
The reason I say fasting during the day to do a fasted cardio is damaging is because you're going way too long with out eating. not eating while you sleep is bad enough ( serious guys will drink a protein shake in the middle of the night) but then to not eat during the day as well means not eating frequently enough and eating too much in a short period of time.


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

btw are you a real doctor? is that what why you use DocD?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> IM not exactly saying that I judge knowledge based on looks, Im just saying I prefer to get my knowledge based on looks. Yes from the guys that that have the results and know how they got it rather than the guy who says he knows but does not have the results to show it, now true it doesn't mean he doesn't know, but my time is valuable and im going with  what my eyes tell me.
> the only advice I take from pro body builders is training advice and methods and dieting. dont get me wrong brother I love science and it was also my favorite subject, ive got nothing against scientific data, as long as its correct. just because fasted cardio in the morning is old school doesn't make it not effective or obsolete. they say their study doesn't prove any benefit, im saying me and many others that have physically done it both ways says that it does. but their study doesn't say not doing fasted cardio yields any better results. Brother when a scientific study come out and shows me a way that yields better results ill be more than happy to accept their method.
> Yes I only do and recommend doing fasted cardio when dieting down to lean out to the maximum in a short period of time. it will yield quicker results.
> The reason I say fasting during the day to do a fasted cardio is damaging is because you're going way too long with out eating. not eating while you sleep is bad enough ( serious guys will drink a protein shake in the middle of the night) but then to not eat during the day as well means not eating frequently enough and eating too much in a short period of time.



No the studies I linked don't say that. What they say is, if you're a trained individual or doing cardio and anything above low intensity, being in a post-prandial (fed state) does NOT stop you from using fat as an energy source. This is the reason you do it fasted is it not? If it doesn't stop it, why would one be any better than the other?



JAXNY said:


> btw are you a real doctor? is that what why you use DocD?



No that's a nickname from childhood.


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

OK, DOC I think we are misunderstanding each other a little bit here, you stated a fasted cardio may have an added benefit. IM saying it certainly has a significant benefit. And I never said doing a non fasted cardio inst effective because it is, its just that you wont get results as quick. 
1- What time of the day were these studies done?
2- Answer this question, If I just slept for say 8 hours and my last meal was at least 2 hours before bed, that's 10 hours since my last meal and lets say it takes another 1/2 hour to get to the gym and get going. so my stomach is completely empty and has no source for energy. So if im on a stationary bike peddling at aprox 100 RPM at a tension high enough that my legs are not burning but by the end of 40 minutes im dripping sweat, (drenched). where was this 40 minutes of energy pulled from?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> OK, DOC I think we are misunderstanding each other a little bit here, you stated a fasted cardio may have an added benefit. IM saying it certainly has a significant benefit. And I never said doing a non fasted cardio inst effective because it is, its just that you wont get results as quick.
> 1- What time of the day were these studies done?
> 2- Answer this question, If I just slept for say 8 hours and my last meal was at least 2 hours before bed, that's 10 hours since my last meal and lets say it takes another 1/2 hour to get to the gym and get going. so my stomach is completely empty and has no source for energy. So if im on a stationary bike peddling at aprox 100 RPM at a tension high enough that my legs are not burning but by the end of 40 minutes im dripping sweat, (drenched). where was this 40 minutes of energy pulled from?



1) don't know. Three mentioned fasted state but no time of day. I know where you're gong with this and it's a ludicrous assumption that has been debunked multiple times over by many people ranging from scientists and researchers to nutritionists and dietitians. I can't help you wih this one if you refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence out there. We can agree to disagree. 

2) once again you're looking shorterm. Fat loss doesn't happen in the short term for the same reason if you overeat by 5000calories in a day the scale weight won't change immediately. You're missing the forest for the trees. I don't know how to present the evidence in a clearer way. What fat you lose in those 40min 'not burning my legs but dripping sweat' can be lost in a smaller amount of time WITH carbs and WITH higher intensity MINUS the catabolism...yes hats right, muscle wasting. So while you're worried about doing your cardio fasted you can possibly be losing muscle at the same time. I admit the body has a super compensatory effect whic will minimize it's effect OVER TIME, but that's why I'm not totally against fasted cardio. It has it's place but for 90+% of the people here the fact of the matter is it will give them no added benefit over normal cardio and could in fact be detrimental. If are a 100% noob or if you're sub 12% and dieting down further you MAY see benefits. 

In your example above, the energy would come from fatty acids. As the MULTPILE studies I posted show, if you are not a beginner or you exercise at the pace you mentioned (100RPM is not low intensity unless your conditioning is great) then EVEN WHEN YOU EAT CARBS PRE-CARDIO THE SAME FAT LOSS OCCURS. Re-read these points again, I'm not sure if you missed them or glossed over, these are supported by facts and in a setting where outside variables have been adjusted for (unlike in these examples you're making)


• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.


As to your statement about non-fasted cardio being less effective bc it doesn't get you results as quick, I'm sorry but I'm calling bullshit. There is no evidence anywhere of that being the case except in the small populations I mention above. Making the statement does not make it true.


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

DOC have you personally more than once done a fasted and non fasted cardio program for at least 8 to 12 weeks? have you done each one at least 3 times?


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## DocDePanda187123 (Feb 26, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> DOC have you personally more than once done a fasted and non fasted cardio program for at least 8 to 12 weeks? have you done each one at least 3 times?



I used to only do fasted cardio when I played ball. It's what the coaches wanted. I've done it first thing in the AM, last thing before bed, and different times in between. That was years ago. I know better now.


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

Look im not trying to get into an argument here but yes we are going to have to agree to dis agree. you said this method has been debunked by scientist, researchers, nutritionist and dietitians. you've mentioned every one except the actual athlete. I dont know what these researchers are doing but some thing is flawed with their study. Yes I am looking at the short term, the term of an 8-12 week intense fasted cardio program. my original post in this thread was, " the only thing I would do on an empty stomach is cardio". I never said a non fasted cardio wouldn't yield results because it does and it will. 
So you're calling it bullshit, you say there is no evidence anywhere?. I am the evidence, right here. I have many times done it both ways and when i do it fasted, along with a disciplined diet i yield better and quicker results every time. I can see the striations in my chest and the skin is so damn tight on my abs it barley moves. and every single time I was unable to do a fasted cardio, which have been several times I can not yeild the same results. I still get defined but not as lean or as quick then when I do it fasted. I have done it many times both ways so that's all the scientific proof I need.  So I am the evidence and there are many other guys that do it the same. and you can see the difference in the guys that don't. and I know how to counter the the catabolism, so i am not loosing any muscle in my program.
and stop with the you dont burn fat in 40 minutes that you burn it in the long term. this is a long term of 12 weeks but a short period.
you even answers my question and admitted that the energy would come from fatty acid. Burning fatty acid in a fasted state rather than burning carbs from a non fasted state makes perfect sense to me. 
honestly I don't give a damn what the scientist have to say on this matter, I know for a damn fact which yields the best results the quickest.  is this method for every one? no, of course not. but if you want to lean out to the max in the quickest time possible then this is the way to go, proven by me and many others time and time again... I don't know what the hell they are doing in the lab but something is off. 
I appreciate your debate on this matter Doc and please I hope you're not taking any offense here, Im not trying to come off like that.


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## JAXNY (Feb 26, 2014)

hey october110 Have the Doc and I answered your question well enough in this thread, LOL.


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## spaceex (Feb 27, 2014)

Whey and Casein protein powders both have benefits and can be part of a healthy diet and workout regime. Understanding the difference between the two can help one decide which suits his/her lifestyle and is the most beneficial, and at what times


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## october110 (Mar 24, 2014)

JAXNY said:


> hey october110 Have the Doc and I answered your question well enough in this thread, LOL.



Yeah all seems a ok to me haha but since this I have started to go 50/50 on pre and post workout shakes. Havnt tried fasted training yet mind, im progressing at the moment, so im gonna stick with my current eating programme. Thanks anyways


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## ProteinFarts (Mar 24, 2014)

I train on an empty stomach. But my body has no idea. It's too hopped up on stimmies to feel any hunger. Of course it's prob easier for me because I train at 6 am.

Casein or whey makes little diff in my opinion. Whey in 2 hours casein a bit longer. You can't get fat off protein. So no issue there. For the most part protein is protein.


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