# Test E/Tren Ace/Tbol Cycle...



## MustangDX

Hello everyone, 

31 y/o, 5'8, 190lbs, 12%bf, been lifting over 8 years consistantly and this will be my 4th cycle. My previous cycles were Test E @500mgs/week only, for 12 weeks, did that twice. My third cycle was Test E @250mgs/week for 12 weeks, Tren Ace @125mgs/EOD for 10 weeks and Tbol @50mgs/ED for 4 weeks. 

Will be getting blood tests pre-cycle, mid-cycle and 6 weeks after PCT. I would gladly appreciate any critique or help with my upcoming cycle proposition. 



*Weeks 1-16*

Test E @500mgs/week split into 2xPins(Mon/Thurs)

*Weeks 3-14*

Tren Ace @100mgs/ED 

*Weeks 1-6*

Tbol @75mgs/ED

*PCT(Weeks 19-22)*

Clomid @50/50/50/50, Nolvadex @40/40/20/20

**Arimidex**

0.5mgs/EOD, from the very first pin until the start of PCT

**HCG**

500iu/week, split into 2xPins(Mon/Thurs) from week 1, until the 4th day before PCT

**Prami**

0.5mgs/ED, throughout the Tren Ace part of the cycle (weeks 3-14)

*Diet*

BMR=1902.5
TDEE=1902.5 x 1.6=3044

40% Protein=1217.6 calories
40% Carbs=1217.6 calories
20% Fats=608.8 calories

1g Protein=4 calories
1g Carbs=4 calories
1g Fats=9 calories

Total

Protein=304g/ED
Carbs=304g/ED
Fats=67g/ED


----------



## Rumpy

Sally, I think everything looks good but the prami.  Have you used it before?  0.5mg ED is more than you should need, and that much would kill me, or at least make my stomach feel like I wish I were dead.

I might up the test a little too.  If you're pinning the tren Ace every day you might as well mix them and pin the test ED as well.  Maybe bump it to 700 also just to keep things simple.  100mg of each ED.


----------



## MustangDX

Rumpy said:


> Sally, I think everything looks good but the prami.  Have you used it before?  0.5mg ED is more than you should need, and that much would kill me, or at least make my stomach feel like I wish I were dead.
> 
> I might up the test a little too.  If you're pinning the tren Ace every day you might as well mix them and pin the test ED as well.  Maybe bump it to 700 also just to keep things simple.  100mg of each ED.



I took Prami last cycle for 10 weeks. I started @0.25mgs/ED and slowly worked my way up to 0.5mgs/ED. The only side I had from it was a little bit more night sweats. 

I like your Test dosage recommendation. Are there any benefits to that method?


----------



## Rumpy

More test is more test, and more test is good.  As far as pinning E ED, there's no real advantage, I mean you will have very stable blood levels, but if you're not complaining at 2X a week, you won't really notice a difference.  I always mix and pin everything every time I pin just to be consistent.  I've been pinning Cyp, Deca and Tren A EOD.  I mean it's always better to pin more frequently, so if you're pinning anyways you might as well pin everything.


----------



## Maintenance Man

I'd say that looks pretty good to me Sal. I did the same thing pinning test E and and tren ace QD. I just like to pin tho so...


----------



## MustangDX

Rumpy said:


> More test is more test, and more test is good.  As far as pinning E ED, there's no real advantage, I mean you will have very stable blood levels, but if you're not complaining at 2X a week, you won't really notice a difference.  I always mix and pin everything every time I pin just to be consistent.  I've been pinning Cyp, Deca and Tren A EOD.  I mean it's always better to pin more frequently, so if you're pinning anyways you might as well pin everything.



That was very insightful, thanks


----------



## MustangDX

Maintenance Man said:


> I'd say that looks pretty good to me Sal. I did the same thing pinning test E and and tren ace QD. I just like to pin tho so...



Does QD mean ED?......help me, i'm a jackass


----------



## Rumpy

MustangDX said:


> Does QD mean ED?......help me, i'm a jackass



Yes, Mr. "I'm going to pharm school" is using Latin abbreviations


----------



## Magical

Looks good bro. Lift heavy


----------



## GreatGunz

So u have used tren 2x and ur gonna run it everyday?
only reason I could see doing that is u had a power meet coming up!
otherwise 300-400 a week m/w/f (1 ml on said days) is more than enough,


----------



## GreatGunz

And you don't need 700 mg of test if u can still grow on 500.....!
Everyone recommending the more is better theory really are not helping u out.


----------



## transcend2007

If your running Tren A have you considered running Test Prop?  More oil but you'll reduce time required to feel the effect and could possible shorten cycle be 2 weeks of more and receive the same benefits.

I also think pinning EOD is sufficient.  You could do test prop100 mg @ 1.5 ml & tren a100m @ 1.5 ml.  That would still be over 500mg's of test and tren per week.


----------



## Maintenance Man

Rumpy said:


> Yes, Mr. "I'm going to pharm school" is using Latin abbreviations



Why confuse myself even further?? Lol Ill be sticking to those just for you


----------



## Cobra Strike

Im with great gunz on the m/w/f pin schedule. Whoever invented eod is a dam chart nerd. There is no reason for any gear to be pinned eod...sure suspension is ed but thats it. Pinning less is the best. You dont want to have popcorn muscles man...by that I mean scar tissue every where. Ace doesnt need to be eod. Mix your test and your ace in one syringe and stick it bro.

Also there isnt a huge difference between 500 a week and 700 a week.

I wouldnt use prami unless you had some prolactin issues which brings me to your estrogen...if your estrogen is in check you shouldn't even have prolactin issues. Hell i never use a da on any cycle I run ever...and I run some pretty heavy 19 nor cycles. 

Take that ai until the end of your pct then taper the dosage in half for another two weeks. No reason to stop taking the ai in pct and let your estrogen get out of whack and inhibit your recovery


----------



## MustangDX

GreatGunz said:


> So u have used tren 2x and ur gonna run it everyday?
> only reason I could see doing that is u had a power meet coming up!
> otherwise 300-400 a week m/w/f (1 ml on said days) is more than enough,



Wouldn't it be better to pin ED vs 3xWeek to help make my blood levels more stable?


----------



## MustangDX

transcend2007 said:


> If your running Tren A have you considered running Test Prop?  More oil but you'll reduce time required to feel the effect and could possible shorten cycle be 2 weeks of more and receive the same benefits.
> 
> I also think pinning EOD is sufficient.  You could do test prop100 mg @ 1.5 ml & tren a100m @ 1.5 ml.  That would still be over 500mg's of test and tren per week.



I completely agree with you but I personally am not a big fan of Test Prop. If I were to use it, your dosage recommendation is perfect. Thanks!


----------



## DocDePanda187123

MustangDX said:


> Wouldn't it be better to pin ED vs 3xWeek to help make my blood levels more stable?



Stability is more of an issue for TRT or therapy. It'll create lower peaks but higher troughs. You could definitely pin it M/W/F or EOD if you want. Your AI dosage should help take care of any sides that may arise.


----------



## MustangDX

Cobra Strike said:


> Im with great gunz on the m/w/f pin schedule. Whoever invented eod is a dam chart nerd. There is no reason for any gear to be pinned eod...sure suspension is ed but thats it. Pinning less is the best. You dont want to have popcorn muscles man...by that I mean scar tissue every where. Ace doesnt need to be eod. Mix your test and your ace in one syringe and stick it bro.
> 
> Also there isnt a huge difference between 500 a week and 700 a week.
> 
> I wouldnt use prami unless you had some prolactin issues which brings me to your estrogen...if your estrogen is in check you shouldn't even have prolactin issues. Hell i never use a da on any cycle I run ever...and I run some pretty heavy 19 nor cycles.
> 
> Take that ai until the end of your pct then taper the dosage in half for another two weeks. No reason to stop taking the ai in pct and let your estrogen get out of whack and inhibit your recovery



I'm a firm believer that prolactin levels can elevate independently of well managed estrogen levels. I'd rather be safe than sorry and just use the Prami. I like to be proactive in terms of possible side effects. 

Also, an AI is not needed during PCT because you need estrogen to help aid in the recovery process.


----------



## MustangDX

Docd187123 said:


> Stability is more of an issue for TRT or therapy. It'll create lower peaks but higher troughs. You could definitely pin it M/W/F or EOD if you want. Your AI dosage should help take care of any sides that may arise.



Your wise beyond your years Sir 

How would you do it personally, if you were to do this exact cycle, ED/EOD or 3xWeek?


----------



## bronco

MustangDX said:


> Wouldn't it be better to pin ED vs 3xWeek to help make my blood levels more stable?



I have no problems pinning everyday but normally go eod with short esters, it's really just a Personnal preference, cycle looks fine you can always bump the test up few weeks in if you feel the need to


----------



## Rumpy

I was running Tren A EOD, (yes, I'm a chart nerd), I think my night sweats were worse on pin days, but besides that, I didn't notice any difference.  My guess is you won't feel the difference between ED and EOD, but I recommend you try both for a week or two and deiced what you like best.  Everyone responds differently, and a lot comes down to personal preference, rather that right or wrong.  Someone also pointed out that more isn't always better, but if 500mg/week is the most test you've ever run, I would bump it to 700 to get a first hand feel for how you respond to a little more.  I mean I agree, more is not always better and if you're growing well at one dose there's no reason to increase it, but I also think people need to experiment a bit find their sweet spot.  I mean we're only talking about 700mg, no one said run 2 grams a week.


----------



## MustangDX

Rumpy said:


> I was running Tren A EOD, (yes, I'm a chart nerd), I think my night sweats were worse on pin days, but besides that, I didn't notice any difference.  My guess is you won't feel the difference between ED and EOD, but I recommend you try both for a week or two and deiced what you like best.  Everyone responds differently, and a lot comes down to personal preference, rather that right or wrong.  Someone also pointed out that more isn't always better, but if 500mg/week is the most test you've ever run, I would bump it to 700 to get a first hand feel for how you respond to a little more.  I mean I agree, more is not always better and if you're growing well at one dose there's no reason to increase it, but I also think people need to experiment a bit find their sweet spot.  I mean we're only talking about 700mg, no one said run 2 grams a week.



I totally agree with you, the moral of the story comes down to, "personal preference" when it comes to issues with no right or wrong. I also like how you recommend to experiment a little to find your personal sweet spot because "everyone is different".


----------



## DocDePanda187123

MustangDX said:


> Your wise beyond your years Sir
> 
> How would you do it personally, if you were to do this exact cycle, ED/EOD or 3xWeek?



I personally wouldn't want to pin anymore than necessary so I'd go with M/W/F as Cobra and GG mentioned. 



MustangDX said:


> I'm a firm believer that prolactin levels can elevate independently of well managed estrogen levels. I'd rather be safe than sorry and just use the Prami. I like to be proactive in terms of possible side effects.
> 
> Also, an AI is not needed during PCT because you need estrogen to help aid in the recovery process.



It's your decision in the end but prolactin sides, while annoying, aren't really harmful. If you don't need the prami why use it kind of deal. You can get a PRL test for pretty cheap after a couple weeks and see if it's really needed. If in that time you develop PRL sides just start the prami then and sides will abate pretty quickly. PRL also will drop on its own when the compound causing it is dropped or DA added. Besides a pituitary tumor I'm not sure how else PRL gets elevated without a concomitant increase in E2. There's evidence out there that progestagenic compounds like deca and tren don't even elevate PRL levels and also that aromatizing compounds can increase PRL levels. Your call as I mentioned just figured I'd expand a but on the topic.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Thanks for hitting those points doc.

Op I understand you have your beliefs but you also need to be open minded because what if your beliefs are wrong? Which in this case certain ones are. To be proactive is a waste and unnecessary. The less toxic shit you dump in the better and of course what doc said is very true. Your not gonna take an ai if your estro is 32. Its not hard to tell your still a rookie at this (no offense I was/still am) one too. Also your estrogen will spike during pct which will inhibit your natural test production so yes take the ai...its in almost all off the pct protocols and its def in dr. Scallys. It will also benefit you to do some research on pcts to help you Better understand what is causing what. Test takes time to clear due to the ester which will spike your estrogen once you stop the ai. Adex doesn't kill estrogen..it just binds to it so when you stop it the 48 hour Half-Life will release even more estrogen causing a spike...Clomid will also increase e2. Im just trying to help you brotha...take it or leave it


----------



## Cobra Strike

http://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/2895-Dr-Scally-PCT

I normally dont do this but here you go. Read this and soak it up brotha


----------



## Rumpy

Cobra, I just skimmed the scally doc.  He recommends aromasin, Sally is planning to run adex.  Do you think the same applies?  Should he run adex during PCT or are you recommending he switch to armasin for the whole cycle?


----------



## MustangDX

..........


----------



## MustangDX

Docd187123 said:


> I personally wouldn't want to pin anymore than necessary so I'd go with M/W/F as Cobra and GG mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> It's your decision in the end but prolactin sides, while annoying, aren't really harmful. If you don't need the prami why use it kind of deal. You can get a PRL test for pretty cheap after a couple weeks and see if it's really needed. If in that time you develop PRL sides just start the prami then and sides will abate pretty quickly. PRL also will drop on its own when the compound causing it is dropped or DA added. Besides a pituitary tumor I'm not sure how else PRL gets elevated without a concomitant increase in E2. There's evidence out there that progestagenic compounds like deca and tren don't even elevate PRL levels and also that aromatizing compounds can increase PRL levels. Your call as I mentioned just figured I'd expand a but on the topic.




Prolactin can be elevated by suppression of dopamine and by increasing progesterone (19-nors) or estradiol. So if you increase either progesterone or estradiol and have diminished dopamine - you suffer from PRL symptoms. Caber/prami raise dopamine, which shuts off PRL production.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Mustang...your getting way to in depth with the scientific Side of the prolactin shit. Do you have any idea how much inhibition a 19 nor causes?  No you dont...you dont know to what degree it has an effect on your dopamine levels. You are correct about dopamine decrease causing Prl increase but you are not considering all the factors at play here. This is where science stops and personal experience takes over. Unless you have some documented studies on the degree of inhibition 19 nor steroids have on dopamine levels(which I guarantee you dont) you are just shooting in the dark. Good theory but it doesn't work as intensely as you may think. Im not gonna brag about running 2g of tren or deca per week but ya my dopamine levels are not suppressed enough to cause Prl release and my estrogen is a tad high at 88 ng/dl and I still dont have elevated prl levels...explain that one with your 400mg of tren a week lol like doc said...use it if you need it...its that simple

Rumpy....ya asin is best for pct but you can taper adex as well and that will work just as good....what we are trying to do is inhibit the negative feed back loop and an ai is needed to do that


----------



## MustangDX

Cobra Strike said:


> Thanks for hitting those points doc.
> 
> Op I understand you have your beliefs but you also need to be open minded because what if your beliefs are wrong? Which in this case certain ones are. To be proactive is a waste and unnecessary. The less toxic shit you dump in the better and of course what doc said is very true. Your not gonna take an ai if your estro is 32. Its not hard to tell your still a rookie at this (no offense I was/still am) one too. Also your estrogen will spike during pct which will inhibit your natural test production so yes take the ai...its in almost all off the pct protocols and its def in dr. Scallys. It will also benefit you to do some research on pcts to help you Better understand what is causing what. Test takes time to clear due to the ester which will spike your estrogen once you stop the ai. Adex doesn't kill estrogen..it just binds to it so when you stop it the 48 hour Half-Life will release even more estrogen causing a spike...Clomid will also increase e2. Im just trying to help you brotha...take it or leave it



I don't understand how being proactive is a waste and unnecessary? Maybe you're just one of those people that can take grams of AAS and not have any sides. But I know if I don't watch my E2 and PRL, I will get sides. That's why I use Adex and Prami. I understand it's all personal preference because everyone reacts different to different compounds. 

Your theory on not needing an AI if it's naturally 32 on cycle doesn't apply to me. I know if I didn't use and AI while using Test, my E2 would be sky high.

And your comment about the spike in estrogen doesn't apply either because I take my AI from the very first pin till the start of PCT. So that means the Test ester will have already cleared by the time I stopped my AI and started my PCT.


----------



## MustangDX

Cobra Strike said:


> Mustang...your getting way to in depth with the scientific Side of the prolactin shit. Do you have any idea how much inhibition a 19 nor causes?  No you dont...you dont know to what degree it has an effect on your dopamine levels. You are correct about dopamine decrease causing Prl increase but you are not considering all the factors at play here. This is where science stops and personal experience takes over. Unless you have some documented studies on the degree of inhibition 19 nor steroids have on dopamine levels(which I guarantee you dont) you are just shooting in the dark. Good theory but it doesn't work as intensely as you may think. Im not gonna brag about running 2g of tren or deca per week but ya my dopamine levels are not suppressed enough to cause Prl release and my estrogen is a tad high at 88 ng/dl and I still dont have elevated prl levels...explain that one with your 400mg of tren a week lol like doc said...use it if you need it...its that simple
> 
> Rumpy....ya asin is best for pct but you can taper adex as well and that will work just as good....what we are trying to do is inhibit the negative feed back loop and an ai is needed to do that



Who's taking 400mg of Tren A?...

Not trying to fight with you bro and I definitely am open minded. That's the whole point of these forums, it's to learn and have intellectual discussions. Not call people "rookies" and force your own theory's down their throat. I respect your opinion as well as everyone else's. I'm a sponge and I'm here to soak up as much AAS knowledge as I can. We can agree to disagree on this one my friend


----------



## Maintenance Man

I think if what you're doing is working for YOU, then why change it? We all feel the need to experiment with what is going to work for us individually. What you experience as good/bad could have the counter effect on someone else. Nobody knows for sure...

I personally wouldn't follow Dr Scally's PCT regimen. I don't believe an AI needs to be a part of my PCT. Ive read it before long ago and don't subscribe to the theory. Since when has the proven method of clomid and nolva gone wrong??? I do admittedly live under a rock like my friend Ronaldino so I could have things askew, isn't Dr Scally's PCT advocating more when less is clearly been proven??


----------



## Rumpy

I ran adex on my last (first) cycle and did not run it during PCT.  I will say, I did feel like shit on PCT, so maybe aromasin would have helped, it's something I've never considered, but I will try it, if I PCT again.  (I'm old and planning to cruise/TRT after this one).  The other part of Scally's protocol I'm not convinced about is no HCG on cycle, but a big blast after last pin before PCT.  I think the whole HCG on cycle thing has been debated into the ground.  Personally, I see the merits of both approaches, but I'm in the on cycle camp.  I'm sure both methods work equally well, and I see it as more a matter of personal preference than one being better than the other.  Everyone responds differently and I'm a big advocate of experimenting a bit to see what works best for you, rather than just applying a one-size-fits-all boiler plate protocol.


----------



## Cobra Strike

Oh excuse me your planned 700mg a week . You said this is your fourth cycle....yes you are a gear rookie...sorry if the truth hurts. 

Btw im not forcing any theory down your throat...im giving you advice based on my personal experiences and knowledge of the game that ive been a part of for many many years. you wanna be ignorant thats your choice.  You will learn eventually. This advice isnt a theory because im living it and have seen the results...all the blood work analysis ive done on myself at many different levels is rediculous but I guess all that has led up to some kind of false sense of education which has developed into a  alot of assumptions and miscalculations  that i apparently use for my "theory" lol

Maintenance man....respectfully addressing your disbelief in dr scallys protocol can you tell me why you dont believe in it? He has ran studies on quite a few hypogonadal pts and has documented proof of success. Seeing is believing is it not? Im also wondering where the less has clearly been proven comes from...how many guys do you know that have recovered fully from each cycle? I dont know one who has had any of their levels return to pre cycle levels after a pct. Also almost everyone is using research  chems which is far from pharm grade and does not work near as well. Dr. Scallys protocols did not use research chems...nor does any other medical study. 

We can talk all day about how everyone reacts differently to things but the fact is that the general population all have very similar reactions...only a few out of the crowd react to things differently. I.e. If everyone reacted differently then testosterone wouldnt work the same for most people and we wouldnt be able to tell new guys to start with 500mg. 

Hcg is another tool in our tool box to aid in recovery...it doesnt guarantee recovery. If your going to pct and your concerned about recovery then why would you not use what you can to reach that result? All pct does is buy time because in the end you wont ever fully recover your  hpta if you continue to use.


----------



## Rumpy

Cobra, Have you tried HCG both on cycle and after?  Did you notice a difference or do you have a preferred method?


----------



## GreatGunz

I am also of the opion that if u weigh x amount your usage should be compatible as to what is needed ( not wanted ) .
Like a 200lb man using 1gram of test a week.
I think expierence and size have a place in how much compound is used. But if your under 200lbs and still new to using why use more than needed to get a good result, and over stress the body!?
tax ur CNS system so early!


----------



## Cobra Strike

You had to ask me that rumpy!!! Lol

Ive done combinations of methods with hcg therapy. 

I find it alot harder to control my estrogen while taking hcg on cycle or during pct. When I was pct'ing I first started with the parroted clomid/nolva just like everyone else. My pct was very depressing, my gains were all but lost, and I had a hard time continuing to go to the gym due to those factors. It was hard to recover using just those two...but I do need to mention I used research chems then as well and my diet wasn't very good. After i started using hcg in my pct i still did not recover fully but i felt better during the time off then i did without the hcg. I did try dr. Scallys protocol but it did not do anything much different then i was use to without using it...again i used research chems which i know are the reason for this failure. I firmly believe in hcg or clomid on cycle for testicular health and i also firmly believe in hcg before pct to help prepare the body to accept the natural lh signal and to help early natty t production. As of current Im using clomid during my cycles now vs hcg and I dont pct anymore. I also use pharm grade adex at .5mg ed which keeps my estro at a nice level. Pharm products destroy research chems when it comes to effectiveness and I personally wont use research chems anymore...but not everyone knows someone who can get them script meds under the table.

So long story short rumpy I like hcg on cycle and right before serm therapy and especially if you are using research chems. The method pretty much stays the Same...the variables are in the dosages. Hcg on cycle of course kept my nuts large but thats the only difference I noticed on vs off during a cycle. The other differences came from blood work such as increased estrogen which teaches a person alot about their sensitivity to hcg. 

Ya I just blab a whole bunch bahaha


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Maintenance Man said:


> I think if what you're doing is working for YOU, then why change it? We all feel the need to experiment with what is going to work for us individually. What you experience as good/bad could have the counter effect on someone else. Nobody knows for sure...
> 
> I personally wouldn't follow Dr Scally's PCT regimen. I don't believe an AI needs to be a part of my PCT. Ive read it before long ago and don't subscribe to the theory. Since when has the proven method of clomid and nolva gone wrong??? I do admittedly live under a rock like my friend Ronaldino so I could have things askew, isn't Dr Scally's PCT advocating more when less is clearly been proven??



I've used Scally's PCT for a long time. It works for me. Scally doesn't recommend an AI for PCT. His pct is HCG blast followed by Clomid/Nolva. The only tweek I've made recently is to run low dose HCG throughout cycle intstead of blasting after.


----------



## Cobra Strike

DieYoungStrong said:


> I've used Scally's PCT for a long time. It works for me. Scally doesn't recommend an AI for PCT. His pct is HCG blast followed by Clomid/Nolva. The only tweek I've made recently is to run low dose HCG throughout cycle intstead of blasting after.



His older protocols didn't recommend ai during pct but I believe he made a recent change to add aromasin to the serm therapy phase


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Cobra Strike said:


> His older protocols didn't recommend ai during pct but I believe he made a recent change to add aromasin to the serm therapy phase



He may have, but it's news to me. I'm also on Meso where he camps out. I used Stane during my last PCT - worked great. He seemed to be against it in a few threads. You may be right though because he said he was looking into stane, and this was awhile ago. I'll PM him and ask. He's a good guy IMO.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

DieYoungStrong said:


> I've used Scally's PCT for a long time. It works for me. Scally doesn't recommend an AI for PCT. His pct is HCG blast followed by Clomid/Nolva. The only tweek I've made recently is to run low dose HCG throughout cycle intstead of blasting after.



The big issue I have with blasting the HCG is it causes intratesticular E2 elevation which aromasin and adex don't treat, only so much Ledyig cell stimulation can happen regardless of the dose increases, only so much Ledyig cells exist, and only so much HCG can be metabolized at a given time.




Cobra Strike said:


> His older protocols didn't recommend ai during pct but I believe he made a recent change to add aromasin to the serm therapy phase



I haven't personally seen any changes to his protocol recently but I'd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run an AI during PCT.


----------



## mabdelrasoul

im going to run this same cycle soon. are you going to make a log?


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Docd187123 said:


> The big issue I have with blasting the HCG is it causes intratesticular E2 elevation which aromasin and adex don't treat, only so much Ledyig cell stimulation can happen regardless of the dose increases, only so much Ledyig cells exist, and only so much HCG can be metabolized at a given time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't personally seen any changes to his protocol recently but I'd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run an AI during PCT.



His opinion on AI during PCT is yours as far as I know Doc.

He DID change his HCG blast though. Went from like 2500 iu EOD to 1-2000 every 3 days.


----------



## Cobra Strike

DieYoungStrong said:


> He may have, but it's news to me. I'm also on Meso where he camps out. I used Stane during my last PCT - worked great. He seemed to be against it in a few threads. You may be right though because he said he was looking into stane, and this was awhile ago. I'll PM him and ask. He's a good guy IMO.



Maybe im the one with the old news then...kinda sounds like it lol

I still believe in ai during pc

Doc....why dont you think an ai is viable during serm therapy?


----------



## Cobra Strike

mabdelrasoul said:


> im going to run this same cycle soon. are you going to make a log?



I make logs all day bro....you want some pics? ;-)


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> Maybe im the one with the old news then...kinda sounds like it lol
> 
> I still believe in ai during pc
> 
> Doc....why dont you think an ai is viable during serm therapy?



I'll answer your question with another question lol: why is it viable for SERM therapy? 

I saw you mentioned the rebound of estrogen but SERM therapy should begin once exogenous levels of hormones have abated correct? Once these levels have dropped and you begin PCT aromatization should not be an issue since you've removed the cause....high levels of aromatizing compounds. Assuming you time your PCT appropriately of ocurse.


----------



## MustangDX

mabdelrasoul said:


> im going to run this same cycle soon. are you going to make a log?



Nope, no log but I'll give some updates on this thread for you. Or you can PM me if you'd like.


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Docd187123 said:


> I'll answer your question with another question lol: why is it viable for SERM therapy?
> 
> I saw you mentioned the rebound of estrogen but SERM therapy should begin once exogenous levels of hormones have abated correct? Once these levels have dropped and you begin PCT aromatization should not be an issue since you've removed the cause....high levels of aromatizing compounds. Assuming you time your PCT appropriately of ocurse.



Dr. Scally says test has to be at or below 500 to start SERMS. Of course, he likes labs to verify when you're there, but you can do some math and get yourself close enough based on half-life IMO. I've had a good amount of conversations with him. Really good guy who cares about AAS users.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

DieYoungStrong said:


> Dr. Scally says test has to be at or below 500 to start SERMS. Of course, he likes labs to verify when you're there, but you can do some math and get yourself close enough based on half-life IMO. I've had a good amount of conversations with him. Really good guy who cares about AAS users.



You're talking plasma levels? <500ng/dL? I saw reference in William Llewellyn's book that you should wait until there's 125 or 150mg of exogenous hormone left in the body. Obviously in this case blood work wouldn't help and your need to go off half life. Don't quote me on the exact number just yet, I'll double check tonight n


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Docd187123 said:


> You're talking plasma levels? <500ng/dL? I saw reference in William Llewellyn's book that you should wait until there's 125 or 150mg of exogenous hormone left in the body. Obviously in this case blood work wouldn't help and your need to go off half life. Don't quote me on the exact number just yet, I'll double check tonight n



Yes, plasma levels. ng/dl. To be honest, I'm sure there is more then one way to skin this cat...


----------



## DocDePanda187123

DieYoungStrong said:


> Yes, plasma levels. ng/dl. To be honest, I'm sure there is more then one way to skin this cat...



So long as the end result is still general Tsao's chicken...


----------



## PillarofBalance

Rumpy said:


> Sally, I think everything looks good but the prami.  Have you used it before?  0.5mg ED is more than you should need, and that much would kill me, or at least make my stomach feel like I wish I were dead.
> 
> I might up the test a little too.  If you're pinning the tren Ace every day you might as well mix them and pin the test ED as well.  Maybe bump it to 700 also just to keep things simple.  100mg of each ED.





MustangDX said:


> I took Prami last cycle for 10 weeks. I started @0.25mgs/ED and slowly worked my way up to 0.5mgs/ED. The only side I had from it was a little bit more night sweats.
> 
> I like your Test dosage recommendation. Are there any benefits to that method?





Rumpy said:


> More test is more test, and more test is good.  As far as pinning E ED, there's no real advantage, I mean you will have very stable blood levels, but if you're not complaining at 2X a week, you won't really notice a difference.  I always mix and pin everything every time I pin just to be consistent.  I've been pinning Cyp, Deca and Tren A EOD.  I mean it's always better to pin more frequently, so if you're pinning anyways you might as well pin everything.



Just reading this thread now...

I wouldn't pin enanthate daily.  Stable blood levels on a blast are over-rated. Peaks and valleys are fine and in most cases preferred. If you pin 100mg of test e daily your peak plasma levels will not be nearly as high as if you were to pin that same 700mg twice per week. It's not always better to pin more frequently. 

You don't necessarily need to bump the test either. Cobra has stated this before and while we don't agree on everything (like HCG use  ) I very much agreed when he stated "tren potentiates test." Essentially saying the addition of tren increases the efficacy of the testosterone.  When I run tren, which I don't plan to anymore, I would run 700 but with my test at 300 to 400.  The results were amazing. And the sides were significantly decreased.

I think the original layout of the cycle is proper. Just hang on to your hat. Tren at 700 is a wild ride.  If after a couple weeks you are not sleeping well at all or feeling a little run down, don't be afraid to drop the dose down to the 300 range. That doesn't make you a pussy, it makes you smart. 

What is the goal of this cycle though?


----------



## MustangDX

PillarofBalance said:


> Just reading this thread now...
> 
> I wouldn't pin enanthate daily.  Stable blood levels on a blast are over-rated. Peaks and valleys are fine and in most cases preferred. If you pin 100mg of test e daily your peak plasma levels will not be nearly as high as if you were to pin that same 700mg twice per week. It's not always better to pin more frequently.
> 
> You don't necessarily need to bump the test either. Cobra has stated this before and while we don't agree on everything (like HCG use  ) I very much agreed when he stated "tren potentiates test." Essentially saying the addition of tren increases the efficacy of the testosterone.  When I run tren, which I don't plan to anymore, I would run 700 but with my test at 300 to 400.  The results were amazing. And the sides were significantly decreased.
> 
> I think the original layout of the cycle is proper. Just hang on to your hat. Tren at 700 is a wild ride.  If after a couple weeks you are not sleeping well at all or feeling a little run down, don't be afraid to drop the dose down to the 300 range. That doesn't make you a pussy, it makes you smart.
> 
> What is the goal of this cycle though?



Building solid lean muscle mass and strength, typical answer I know, lol

Thank you for the critique


----------



## Magical

I like to pin my wife eod, if that helps...


With my flesh needle lol


----------



## MustangDX

Magical said:


> I like to pin my wife eod, if that helps...
> 
> 
> With my flesh needle lol



What gauge is your flesh needle?


----------



## Cobra Strike

Docd187123 said:


> I'll answer your question with another question lol: why is it viable for SERM therapy?
> 
> I saw you mentioned the rebound of estrogen but SERM therapy should begin once exogenous levels of hormones have abated correct? Once these levels have dropped and you begin PCT aromatization should not be an issue since you've removed the cause....high levels of aromatizing compounds. Assuming you time your PCT appropriately of ocurse.



I can see your point brotha and I do agree with you on that level...once you reach testosterone levels below supra physiological levels then yes you shouldn't experience any estrogen spikes...however there is more going on then just E2 which leads me to the answer to your question: I believe in an ai during pct because of the existence of ITA or intratesticular aromatization. ITA occurs with the use of HCG. It is significant and there is documentation of this in recent research. It can contribute to the negative feedback loop and can induce suppression of the testicles ability to produce testosterone. Besides ITA if you don't control your estrogen while in pct and you do experience some spikes or fluctuations (lets face it there is no guarantee your estrogen wont increase during pct) then it can also suppress testosterone production as increased estrogen will decrease testosterone. Using an ai to maintain normal estrogen levels is a good thing. Im not sure how many guys actually get blood work during pct but I have noted a higher then normal estrogen level during pct while not taking anything but clomid and nolva. (this is when I use to pct lol) I didnt use an ai then. I know in MY body that it takes a little time off of everything for my levels to naturally return to homeostasis....even my test levels would fluctuate. This is another reason why I suggest waiting for a minimum of 4 weeks after pct to check your blood work....to allow your body to return to its natural state for accuracy purposes. People all recover at different rates and use different compounds and protocols for pct so its hard to guage when homeostasis is reached per individual. I firmly do not believe in research chems as many of you may have already noticed that in a lot of my posts. I always had issues in my blood work while using research chems for an ai and/or pct. My blood work was unpredictable and was always changing not only from cycle to cycle but also during the same cycle. When I switched to pharm grade products I have noticed a nice leveling out of all my blood work and a more predictable outcome and much much better results. The only time I have a hard time guessing what my numbers are is when I make a dosage change or run a higher dosage or use different compounds together. Ok sorry that was completely off subject  gotta love Adderall!!!

doc...quit answering questions with questions..you know that's rude hahaha


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> I can see your point brotha and I do agree with you on that level...once you reach testosterone levels below supra physiological levels then yes you shouldn't experience any estrogen spikes...however there is more going on then just E2 which leads me to the answer to your question: I believe in an ai during pct because of the existence of ITA or intratesticular aromatization. ITA occurs with the use of HCG. It is significant and there is documentation of this in recent research. It can contribute to the negative feedback loop and can induce suppression of the testicles ability to produce testosterone. Besides ITA if you don't control your estrogen while in pct and you do experience some spikes or fluctuations (lets face it there is no guarantee your estrogen wont increase during pct) then it can also suppress testosterone production as increased estrogen will decrease testosterone. Using an ai to maintain normal estrogen levels is a good thing. Im not sure how many guys actually get blood work during pct but I have noted a higher then normal estrogen level during pct while not taking anything but clomid and nolva. (this is when I use to pct lol) I didnt use an ai then. I know in MY body that it takes a little time off of everything for my levels to naturally return to homeostasis....even my test levels would fluctuate. This is another reason why I suggest waiting for a minimum of 4 weeks after pct to check your blood work....to allow your body to return to its natural state for accuracy purposes. People all recover at different rates and use different compounds and protocols for pct so its hard to guage when homeostasis is reached per individual. I firmly do not believe in research chems as many of you may have already noticed that in a lot of my posts. I always had issues in my blood work while using research chems for an ai and/or pct. My blood work was unpredictable and was always changing not only from cycle to cycle but also during the same cycle. When I switched to pharm grade products I have noticed a nice leveling out of all my blood work and a more predictable outcome and much much better results. The only time I have a hard time guessing what my numbers are is when I make a dosage change or run a higher dosage or use different compounds together. Ok sorry that was completely off subject  gotta love Adderall!!!
> 
> doc...quit answering questions with questions..you know that's rude hahaha



I have a habit of answering questions with questions lmao. I'm a huge proponent of the Socratic Method! 

To touch upon intra-testicular E2 issue:

You are absolutely correct HCG can increase ITA but this is only seen when "blasting" HCG which is why I advise against the blast. My recommendations mirror those of Dr. Crisler, namely 250iu twice weekly for the duration of the cycle. Using such relatively small doses prevents ITA in most if not all cases and is sufficient for the overwhelming majority of the population to retain testicukar size and function during a cycle. Some may need more or less but it's a very effective guideline range. Crisler also states that in no instance should anyone use  more than 500iu in any given day and he has never in his years needed to administer more than 350iu in any single injection. If more is needed than you increase the dosing frequency not the amount. Again this is to prevent ITA  as you mentioned and to prevent Ledyig Cell desensitization which can cause primary hypogonadism. This flies in the face of Dr. Scallys protocol I know. So by avoiding blast sized doses of HCG and using it on cycle there should be no issue of ITA, it should be sufficient to preserve the P450 side chain cleavage enzyme production which is responsible for sex steroid production. 

The other issue of how to deal with ITA if it occurs is not as easy as using an AI. Anastrozole and exemestane both do nothing to prevent or lower ITA. To my knowledge the only AI that can do this is letrozole. 

These are the reasons I always recommend HCG be used on cycle from day one till just before beginning PCT, to prevent these valid issues you point out. A dose of 250iu twice weekly will avoid ITA while providing enough stimulation for the testes. His is also why I advise to run an AI from day one till you begin PCT (unless bloodwork dictates you don't need an AI which is rarely the case), I recommend using anastrozole and exemstane for on cycle AI (letro is extremely potent and requires much fine tuning to find a good dose), and I'd normally only recommend letro to treat ITA (unless one has a lot of cycle experience and access to reliable blood work). 

This is a great debate and I hope we all are learning something from this


----------



## Armedanddangerous

This is some good reading, but now my head hurts hahaha


----------



## PillarofBalance

MustangDX said:


> What gauge is your flesh needle?



30g 5/8"

His ole lady don't call him Mr. Slin Pin for nuttin


----------



## Cobra Strike

Well I just wrote my reply but my dam phone deleted it...

Doc...good points on adex and aromasin not working on ITA...I agree and this has some influence on the scientific side of my thinking but not on my personal experience side. I also disagree with the blast and have stopped recommending that to people instead to remain on the normal on cycle dose until just before pct. I dont believe in leydig cell desensitization but I do believe in leydig cell down regulation. 

To make this quick...unless your getting blood work throughout your cycle pre post and pct... learning your body and protecting yourself...then i would still recommend an ai in pct. It may not help ITA but it does help systemic E2. Yes in theory you shouldn't have estrogen problems during pct but in my experience a large number us do including myself. Even clomid can cause large spikes in estrogen even though its suppose to down regulate it. I hate using this phone on this site!!!! 

This is a very good example of two sides to every story...for every right answer you finding there...there is an equal but opposite right answer ;-)


----------



## Magical

PillarofBalance said:


> 30g 5/8"
> 
> His ole lady don't call him Mr. Slin Pin for nuttin



You heard about that huh? Yeah I get around


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> Well I just wrote my reply but my dam phone deleted it...
> 
> Doc...good points on adex and aromasin not working on ITA...I agree and this has some influence on the scientific side of my thinking but not on my personal experience side. I also disagree with the blast and have stopped recommending that to people instead to remain on the normal on cycle dose until just before pct. I dont believe in leydig cell desensitization but I do believe in leydig cell down regulation.
> 
> To make this quick...unless your getting blood work throughout your cycle pre post and pct... learning your body and protecting yourself...then i would still recommend an ai in pct. It may not help ITA but it does help systemic E2. Yes in theory you shouldn't have estrogen problems during pct but in my experience a large number us do including myself. Even clomid can cause large spikes in estrogen even though its suppose to down regulate it. I hate using this phone on this site!!!!
> 
> This is a very good example of two sides to every story...for every right answer you finding there...there is an equal but opposite right answer ;-)



That shit happens to me all the time switching between windows on my phone. 

I believe in the desensitization Cobra. There's plenty of evidence out there to support it:





			
				William Llewellyn said:
			
		

> It is important to remember that the dosage needs to be carefully monitored with this type of use, as high levels of hCG may cause increased testicular aromatase expression (raising estrogen levels),771 and also desensitize the testes to LH.772 As such, the drug may actually induce primary hypogonadism when misused.
> 
> Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.






			
				Dr. Crisler said:
			
		

> It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism.



Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig cells by human chorionic gonadotropin in vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1979.

Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

6.	KarilaT, Hovatta 0, et al. Concomitant abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids and human chorionic gonadotrophin impairs sper¬matogenesis in power athletes. Int J Sports Med, 2004 May;25(4):257-63.

Aggarwal A, Misro MM, et al. Adverse ef¬fects associated with persistent stimulation of Leydig cells with hCG in vitro. Mol Reprod Dev, 2009 Nov;76(11):1076-83.

You make a great point about blood work and one I agree with: pre-cycle labs (~2wks before beginning the cycle), mid-cycle (6-10wks for longer esters), and post-cycle (~6-8wks after completion of PCT) for each and every cycle. Without blood work we really have no idea what's going on.


----------



## Maintenance Man

Cobra Strike said:


> Maintenance man....respectfully addressing your disbelief in dr scallys protocol can you tell me why you dont believe in it? He has ran studies on quite a few hypogonadal pts and has documented proof of success. Seeing is believing is it not? Im also wondering where the less has clearly been proven comes from...how many guys do you know that have recovered fully from each cycle? I dont know one who has had any of their levels return to pre cycle levels after a pct. Also almost everyone is using research  chems which is far from pharm grade and does not work near as well. Dr. Scallys protocols did not use research chems...nor does any other medical study.
> 
> We can talk all day about how everyone reacts differently to things but the fact is that the general population all have very similar reactions...only a few out of the crowd react to things differently. I.e. If everyone reacted differently then testosterone wouldnt work the same for most people and we wouldnt be able to tell new guys to start with 500mg.
> 
> Hcg is another tool in our tool box to aid in recovery...it doesnt guarantee recovery. If your going to pct and your concerned about recovery then why would you not use what you can to reach that result? All pct does is buy time because in the end you wont ever fully recover your  hpta if you continue to use.


Sorry Im a lil ate getting back over here but sure Cobra. As you guys have already touched on the subject, The HCG blasts and additions of an Ai to the PCT regimen are not things I necessarily agree with needing to have for a successful recovery. I'm of the theory that intratesticular E2 levels are being spiked by exogenous leydig cell stimulation, if too much is used in a short amount of time. Also seeing is believing as many, many blood tests come back from the average joe with more than acceptable post cycle levels using clomid and nolva only.
Now the point Im making with more being less is that we can get by on 500mgs a week of test but some guys will use 1gm when the previous will suffice and maybe NOT even give you much more dramatic results. So why would I include an AI in my PCT if Ive taken proper steps at guesstimating my drugs half lives while having used the proper ancillaries during as to keep your E2 at a respectable level? I wouldn't if less was going to get me by. 
Now we weren't discussing returning back to pre cycle levels as that will most likely NOT happen for MOST people. The most you can hope is to return to the general range that you were at pre cycle. And my opinion is that if we're that worried about the small levels of loss in TT every time we cycle;cycle many times over and over; why are we not cruising to keep optimum levels anyway?



DieYoungStrong said:


> I've used Scally's PCT for a long time. It works for me. Scally doesn't recommend an AI for PCT. His pct is HCG blast followed by Clomid/Nolva. The only tweek I've made recently is to run low dose HCG throughout cycle intstead of blasting after.



I agree with the maintenance dosing 100% on cycle from week 1. No need in atrophy to set in, just to try and reverse it and "cram" for the exam...Like my ole friend that doesn't visit here BUT SHOULD MORE OFTEN Austinite said, Its a proactive decision to be preventative. HCG is the seat belt. Your cycle is the accident. Why wait to put on your seat belt AFTER you fukking wreck, right??? Except he doesn't cuss lol.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Maintenance Man said:


> I agree with the maintenance dosing 100% on cycle from week 1. No need in atrophy to set in, just to try and reverse it and "cram" for the exam..Like my ole friend that doesn't visit here BUT SHOULD MORE OFTEN Austinite said, Its a proactive decision to be preventative. HCG is the seat belt. Your cycle is the accident. Why wait to put on your seat belt AFTER you fukking wreck, right??? Except he doesn't cuss lol.



I remember him saying that all the time lol. My buddy Riprockwell likes to say "it's better to keep the horse in the barn than chase it across 3 counties" lol


----------



## Maintenance Man

Docd187123 said:


> I remember him saying that all the time lol. My buddy Riprockwell likes to say "it's better to keep the horse in the barn than chase it across 3 counties" lol



I remember that one as well and do laugh at the visualization. I guess since Ive had a car wreck w/o a seat belt, this one stuck more. Plus Im not a fan of horses lol


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Maintenance Man said:


> I remember that one as well and do laugh at the visualization. I guess since Ive had a car wreck w/o a seat belt, this one stuck more. Plus Im not a fan of horses lol



I got kick by a horse....but I was being a jackass lol. Also been in numerous wrecks before. Those aren't fun especially when losing a car you love


----------



## MustangDX

Docd187123 said:


> I got kick by a horse....but I was being a jackass lol. Also been in numerous wrecks before. Those aren't fun especially when losing a car you love



What kind of car did you lose?


----------



## DocDePanda187123

MustangDX said:


> What kind of car did you lose?



In the last several years I've totaled 2 STI's. One to a deer the size of a damn moose on the highway and one just this past December to a multiple car pileup on the highway


----------



## Maintenance Man

Docd187123 said:


> I got kick by a horse....but I was being a jackass lol. Also been in numerous wrecks before. Those aren't fun especially when losing a car you love


I got bit by a horse in the back like 4 times...that shit hurt brrrrooooo lol


MustangDX said:


> What kind of car did you lose?


It was a 71 Camaro 350 with a 3 speed turbohydromatic lol


Docd187123 said:


> In the last several years I've totaled 2 STI's. One to a deer the size of a damn moose on the highway and one just this past December to a multiple car pileup on the highway


Ya you need to stop wrecking those nice cars Doc. may that be your last


----------



## MustangDX

Docd187123 said:


> In the last several years I've totaled 2 STI's. One to a deer the size of a damn moose on the highway and one just this past December to a multiple car pileup on the highway



Well at least you didn't crash into one of Rumpy's cats...


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Maintenance Man said:


> I got bit by a horse in the back like 4 times...that shit hurt brrrrooooo lol
> 
> It was a 71 Camaro 350 with a 3 speed turbohydromatic lol
> 
> Ya you need to stop wrecking those nice cars Doc. may that be your last



There's a rich kid in my town when we were growing up. His dad bought him 4escalades (2 totaled, 1 he didn't like anymore, and one got stolen), a Benz S430 (crashed and sold), Audi RS4 small crash, and an older Dinan M3 (wrapped around a street lamp pole). Never fukking learned bc daddy always bought him a new one


----------



## DocDePanda187123

MustangDX said:


> Well at least you didn't crash into one of Rumpy's cats...



I think he'd have put a contract hit out on me if I did


----------



## MustangDX

Docd187123 said:


> There's a rich kid in my town when we were growing up. His dad bought him 4escalades (2 totaled, 1 he didn't like anymore, and one got stolen), a Benz S430 (crashed and sold), Audi RS4 small crash, and an older Dinan M3 (wrapped around a street lamp pole). Never fukking learned bc daddy always bought him a new one



Aaron Hernandez?


----------



## DocDePanda187123

MustangDX said:


> Aaron Hernandez?



No he grew up like 35min from me. This guy was the owner of a garbage/refuse company and in the mob so he had a bankroll to pay for all this shit for his kid. He got indicted and convicted a few years ago on racketeering and conspiracy charges. The US marshals took over his company and sold it for ~50 mil I think


----------



## Cobra Strike

Interesting stories lol...doc...stop texting and driving ;-)

Ok so i was kidding....I do believe in desensitization but only after extremely high dosages. I think ive only seen one clinical study done that has actually proved this happening but the dose was over 5000iu at once...details details to be honest I could give a shat less h

Maintenance man...in the case that less is more or whatever ya you can say 1g Ian much different then 500mg but the fact is with higher gear dosages co.es more muscle and size wether or not the gear loses efficacy with the increases...you will gain more from 2g of test then you will one  so lets all just juice the fck up...fck money....fck your health...slam some oil son!!!!!

Ps dont take what I said at the end literally


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> Interesting stories lol...doc...stop texting and driving ;-)
> 
> Ok so i was kidding....I do believe in desensitization but only after extremely high dosages. I think ive only seen one clinical study done that has actually proved this happening but the dose was over 5000iu at once...details details to be honest I could give a shat less h
> 
> Maintenance man...in the case that less is more or whatever ya you can say 1g Ian much different then 500mg but the fact is with higher gear dosages co.es more muscle and size wether or not the gear loses efficacy with the increases...you will gain more from 2g of test then you will one  so lets all just juice the fck up...fck money....fck your health...slam some oil son!!!!!
> 
> Ps dont take what I said at the end literally



Lol. I agree, it does take high doses to desensitize and studies have been done on 1,000-2000ius for several months without desensitization. My hangup is, while these subjects didn't get desensitized during the length of the study, did it bring upon primary hypogonadism in any patients later on? Did it make ppl get on TRT sooner than they would've otherwise needed to? Is the damage of blasting 1000-2000iu of HCG additive? Some ppl cycle frequently during the year so imagine 2-3cycles a year year after year, does it add up or so long as you remain under the threshold you're fine? I don't know the answers to these questions which makes me err on the side of caution I guess and avoid blasting it. If you have any answers or leads to these I'd love to hear them bro!


----------



## Cobra Strike

No answers...just bro science

I will tell you what put me on trt....max muscle.


----------



## DocDePanda187123

Cobra Strike said:


> No answers...just bro science
> 
> I will tell you what put me on trt....max muscle.



Lol! I'm trying to keep these balls working for a few more years I hope hahaha. How do you like TRT?


----------



## Cobra Strike

Well not to be encouraging but I love it....its the only way to truly keep your gains...in addition I dont have to go through the ups and downs of pct. I wanted trt eventually anyway...on the other hand I kinda need to stop blasting to be on trt again lol


----------



## Blues4ever88

New to the site and only 25 years old but everyone I have ever talked to has advised me to keep blood levels as consistent as possible.


----------

