# The Bro Split: why it sucks & better alternatives



## MrRippedZilla

The Bro Split​
Most of you who've followed my posts across the boards will be very familiar for my passionate hate for the bro split.
The aim of this article is to show exactly why its such a poor way to train (ESPECIALLY on cycle) and then to suggest a few alternative splits that I have used successfully with clients & know for a fact produce very good results.


*What is the bro split & why does it suck?*

The bro split usually involves training 5xweek with each session dedicated to 1 muscle group in particular. It was commonly seen in many magazines and, as a result, adopted by most bros (including experienced guys who should know better).
Here is a basic example of what it may look like:

Mon - Chest
Tues - Back
Wed - Legs
Thurs - Shoulders
Fri - Arms
Weekend - Off

The main reason why this split sucks, and why no one looking to optimize hypertrophy should adopt it, is because of it's low frequency nature. Without getting too into the specifics of skeletal muscle biology, here is a nice summary of points to illustrate what I mean:

*1)* The "anabolic" effect of a workout (enhanced protein synthesis, glycogen storage, etc) tends to last around *72hrs* and, regardless of the amount of training volume per session, 1 muscle group does *NOT* need 6 days to ****ing recover.
These 2 points combined basically mean that you end up WASTING away 3 days every single week since their is no continued stimulus for muscle growth and no need for the enhanced recovery time.

2) On cycle, your in a constant anabolic environment and recovery capacity is greatly enhanced.
This is the reason why most guys still grow even with a shitty bro split on cycle - its the AAS doing the majority of the work, not them.
If your recovery capacity is better, why do low frequency?
If your capable of training harder, which means the stimulus to create growth would be stronger, why train less?
Hopefully, you get the point.


*Better split alternatives

DISCLAIMER:*
The following splits were designed for bodybuilders where muscle growth for aesthetics is the main aim and not for PLers, OLers or other strength athletes where other considerations have to be taken into account. Yes, hypertrophy & strength do share many of the same general principles but the fact is, when we get down to the details, the training approach differs quite a bit.

When creating a split you can either focus on planes of movement or specific areas of the body and, IME, it doesn't makes much of a difference provided the training load is kept under control.
Speaking of training load, don't expect much more then a few sentences about the variables (volume, intensity, progression models, etc) within these splits since I outlined my thought process on these in a detailed article elsewhere that is well worth reading:
A-basic-guide-to-periodization

Now then, let's get down to business...


Full body

Mon - Full body, 12-15 reps
Tues
Wed - Full body, 3-5 reps
Thurs
Fri - Full body, 8-10 reps
Sat
Sun

- This is an ideal split for beginners who have experienced a few months of full body, linear training within a fixed rep range but still produces better results in advanced lifters as well (yes, full body > bro split).
- The incorporation of a high-low-mid undulating rep range is done specifically to max out 8RMs, which IME is the key training indicator for muscle growth (separated from strength, work capacity, etc). 
- The mixture of reps also allows us to take advantage of the different pathways for hypertrophy (tension, fatigue, stress, etc).


Advanced, high frequency PPL

Mon - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Tues - Back, biceps, side/rear delts
Wed - Legs, core
Thurs - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Fri - Back, biceps, front/side delts
Sat - legs/core
Sun

- PPL is a well known split that hits everything 2x week *(OPTIMAL)*
- Not suitable for those with busy lives who may not find the time, or energy, to hit everything hard 6x week.


Intermediate upper/lower

Mon - upper
Tues - lower
Wed
Thurs - upper
Fri - lower
Sat
Sun

- Basic, convenient with good frequency & volume, can't go wrong here.
- Ideal setup for multiple periodization approaches, for example...


Intermediate-advanced, undulated upper/lower

Week 1                                            
Mon - upper, 12-15 reps
Tues - lower, 12-15 reps
Wed
Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps
Fri - lower, 3-5 reps
Sat
Sun - optional accessory work (posing, addressing muscle imbalances, extra work for lagging muscle groups, etc)

Week 2                                            
Mon - upper, 8-10 reps
Tues - lower, 8-10 reps
Wed
Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps
Fri - lower, 8-10 reps
Sat
Sun - optional accessory work (posing, addressing muscle imbalances, extra work for lagging muscle groups, etc)

Repeat week 1

- The idea here, again, is to* rotate volume in a high-low-mid cycle* with the primary focus being the 8-10 rep range.
- We can make this even more specific by rotating volume per MOVEMENT rather than per session.
For example for muscle groups that respond best to high reps like shoulders we could go with 8-10 & 3-5 rep work in week 1 with week 2 dedicated to 12-15 while, at the same time, going with 8-10 & 12-15 rep work in week 1 with week 2 dedicated to 3-5 rep work for faster twitch muscle groups like triceps. This is known as muscle fibre training, something I've written about elsewhere and will happily link to anyone interested.


Advanced, high frequency & low volume  
Mon - upper, standard sets
Tues - lower, standard sets
Wed - upper, last sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
Thurs - lower, last sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
Fri - upper, all sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
Sat - lower, all sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
Sun

- Low volume is key to making this split work; we're talking 1-2 movements per muscle group for 2-3 sets each.
- The idea with the last sets in the mid-week session is to completely exhaust yourself with the advanced method of your choice. Personally, I prefer going to failure on the isolation stuff and rest pausing for the compounds.
- The final sessions of the week are, basically, and advanced form of high intensity training (except with more volume, 1 all out set isn't going to cut it).


Advanced, undulated, low frequency, upper/lower

Week 1
Mon - upper, 12-15 reps last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Tues - lower, 12-15 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Wed
Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Fri - lower, 3-5 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Sat
Sun

Week 2
Mon - upper, 8-10 reps last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Tues - lower, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Wed
Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Fri - lower, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Sat
Sun

Week 3
Mon - upper, 12-15 reps all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Tues - lower, 12-15 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Wed
Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Fri - lower, 3-5 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Sat
Sun

Week 4
Mon - upper, 8-10 reps all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Tues - lower, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Wed
Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Fri - lower, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
Sat
Sun

Repeat week 1

- Notice how both the high & low rep sessions get a chance with the advanced techniques on the last & all sets depending on the week (1&3).
- For the 3-5rep sessions, I don't recommend failure as the advanced technique of choice (especially when doing it for all sets). Rest pause or dropsets are better suited here.
- Similar to the "Intermediate-advanced, undulated upper/lower" split, we can make all of this more specific by rotating the volume by movement rather than session. Again, PM me for more info since it can get pretty complicated from a tracking perspective.


Upper/lower/full

Mon - upper
Tues
Wed - lower
Thurs
Fri - full body
Sat
Sun

- I like this routine when going on a severe cut (40%+ deficit),  or to keep things minimal during the last 1/3 or so of contest prep.
- It's still superior to the bro split due to the higher frequency (everything hit 2x week) and convenience of it all.


PPL/upper/lower hybrid

Mon - push
Tues - pull
Wed - legs
Thurs - upper
Fri - lower
Sat
Sun

- This is something an old training partner of mine used back in my competitive days and it stuck with me ever since.
- When you compare a 5x week routine like this to the 5x week bro split...the difference in training quality & results is massive.


*Summary*

You'll see a lot of upper/lower and PPL variations in these examples simply because most people are familiar with those set ups and, as a result, they are the easiest examples to use when demonstrating different setups. Provided your using at least 2-3 muscle groups per session, and hitting everything a minimum of 2x week, you can split it up as you wish.
As you can see, with a little bit of creativity you can come up with a tonne of good split routines that completely trump the classic bro split. Hopefully this article gave you some bright ideas  


RippedZilla


----------



## Bro Bundy

I love your threads bro..Very educational for all.


----------



## DreamChaser

Yes very good read on bro split


----------



## Megatron28

Zilla: do you recommend diet adjustments on days off or do you find it best to just keep the diet consistent regardless of days on/off?


----------



## DieYoungStrong

Day 1 - Deadlift, bench assistance
off 
Day 2 - Bench, squat assistance
off
Day 3 - Squat, posterior chain fukkery
off
Day 4 - curls for the girls

Diet - Miller High Life's and red meat


----------



## TheHercWithAMouth

Awesome post, I use something similar to advanced PPL myself but since legs and shoulders are a strong point for me I train them once per week.


----------



## stonetag

I honestly admit that as of late I have been using the bro split, fuk!


----------



## curtisvill

Great article. Thank you. I have found that 3 days on one day off works best for me. 
1- back, biceps, rear/side delts
2- chest, tris, front/side delts
3- legs
4- off
Repeat


----------



## John Ziegler

Here's a full body I like that I made up myself.

1. Squats

2. Behind the neck Press

3. Seated Row or bent over row

4. Flat Benchpress


----------



## Franklin Yeti

I've done both the upper/lower split and the Bro split, as just about everyone on here probably has.  I feel as though when I have 5 different muscle groups to work on a given day e.g. upper day (Chest, Shoulder, Back, Bis, Tris) 3 of those muscle groups don't get worked out with the intensity they deserve, or even I would like.  No matter how much I say I'm going to go 100% on all 5, whatever muscle group is at the end of that workout just isn't going to get the intensity level it needs.   My personal opinion is, I like going to the gym knowing that a given muscle is going to get completely blasted.  Of course, this may not be ideal based on the above description (that's debatable also), but it's what I enjoy the most.  When you boil it down, it's about what you enjoy doing the most that gets you to the gym, right?


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Megatron28 said:


> Zilla: do you recommend diet adjustments on days off or do you find it best to just keep the diet consistent regardless of days on/off?



Depends...gimme some more details on the context we're dealing with (bulk/recomp/cut, on/off cycle, insulin sensitivity, etc) and I can give a more specific answer 



Franklin Yeti said:


> I've done both the upper/lower split and the Bro split, as just about everyone on here probably has.  I feel as though when I have 5 different muscle groups to work on a given day e.g. upper day (Chest, Shoulder, Back, Bis, Tris) 3 of those muscle groups don't get worked out with the intensity they deserve, or even I would like.  No matter how much I say I'm going to go 100% on all 5, whatever muscle group is at the end of that workout just isn't going to get the intensity level it needs.   My personal opinion is, I like going to the gym knowing that a given muscle is going to get completely blasted.  *Of course, this may not be ideal based on the above description (that's debatable also), but it's what I enjoy the most.*  When you boil it down, it's about what you enjoy doing the most that gets you to the gym, right?



The intensity critique can be addressed with proper periodization (see the article I linked). 
Intensity, as with all training variables, should be rotated because it is unrealistic to expect yourself to go in the gym and kill it 100% for every single muscle group, every single session - unless your a beginner or some sort of genetic freak.

Yes, what's enjoyable to an individual is more important than what's optimal because they're more likely to actually stick to the plan long term (adherence > everything else). 
However, it's also important to note that psychological needs (what you enjoy) do not dictate physiological realities (what is needed for optimal growth) - in other words, no matter how much more enjoyable a style of training may be, that doesn't equate to it being "better" when judged in an objective manner. 

The part in bold is where I have an issue - how is it debatable exactly? Provided volume is kept equal, how is completing blasting a muscle once a week better than hitting it twice a week?
Not to sound like an ass, but I have a pretty solid understanding of muscle biology from the acute molecular to the long term genetic level and I don't see any pathway that suggests less frequent stimuli to be superior. 
My experience with myself & clients certainly doesn't support the bro split.
The data doesn't support it being better, as illustrated by a recent meta-analysis concluding 2x week frequency per muscle group to be superior to 1x week:
Effects of Resistance Training Frequency on Measures of Muscle Hypertrophy: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis.
So yes, if you have a logical argument as to why it's a better way of training, based off objective data, then I'm all ears


----------



## ECKSRATED

I did the bro split for years. Worked very well for me. I went from 145 pounds to 196 pounds over aboit ten years. Natural too. I trained hard as hell. Everything to failure . Drop sets. Super sets. Only trained each muscle once a week but I destroyed those muscles. 

I didn't read your post cus im at work but I will later when I have more time.


----------



## TheHercWithAMouth

> However, it's also important to note that psychological needs (what you enjoy) do not dictate physiological realities (what is needed for optimal growth) - in other words, no matter how much more enjoyable a style of training may be, that doesn't equate to it being "better" when judged in an objective manner.



QFT. As far as the bro split working for some people...it can be cycled in like anything else when you need a break from frequency or during off periods. Everything works, nothing works forever. If your intensity is high enough, you can make any split work....BUT what if you were cycling it as another variable with volume and frequency? Could you have gotten better results? The science seems to say so.


----------



## NbleSavage

MrRippedZilla said:


> The data doesn't support it being better, *as illustrated by a recent meta-analysis concluding 2x week frequency per muscle group to be superior to 1x week*:
> Effects of Resistance Training Frequency on Measures of Muscle Hypertrophy: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis.
> So yes, if you have a logical argument as to why it's a better way of training, based off objective data, then I'm all ears



Dat' footer doe'...inquiring minds wanna know...

"CONCLUSIONS:
When comparing studies that investigated training muscle groups between 1 to 3 days per week on a volume-equated basis, the current body of evidence indicates that frequencies of training twice a week promote superior hypertrophic outcomes to once a week. It can therefore be inferred that the major muscle groups should be trained at least twice a week to maximize muscle growth; *whether training a muscle group three times per week is superior to a twice-per-week protocol remains to be determined*."


----------



## MrRippedZilla

NbleSavage said:


> Dat' footer doe'...inquiring minds wanna know...
> 
> "CONCLUSIONS:
> When comparing studies that investigated training muscle groups between 1 to 3 days per week on a volume-equated basis, the current body of evidence indicates that frequencies of training twice a week promote superior hypertrophic outcomes to once a week. It can therefore be inferred that the major muscle groups should be trained at least twice a week to maximize muscle growth; *whether training a muscle group three times per week is superior to a twice-per-week protocol remains to be determined*."



Data is too weak to conclude anything but, IME, the answer is yes 

I regularly have guys bump up the frequency to 3xweek for 1-2 lagging muscle groups while reducing the total training load for everything else.
Of course you could train everything 3x week (think morning/evening sessions) provided you take into account issues with convenience and programming. Most guys left to their own devices will inevitably go overboard with the volume and end up worse off so its not something I generally recommend.


----------



## DieYoungStrong

The golden age guys in Arnold's error trained everything 3x a week. They looked great.


----------



## saltylifter

Shit I've been training wrong my entire life fukkkkkkkkkkkking son of a bitchhhhhhh..
Time for a change 
Thanks for the read 
Very good


----------



## Gofalcons

Wow great read!! The bro split sucks.


----------



## Cobra Strike

I have to agree that training a specific muscle more than once a week will provide more results. My shoulders use to be lagging and I wanted to build them so I trained them on Thursday and Saturday. Thursday would be hypertrophic and sat would be heavy. The only issue I have with your splits is that I just don't have the time to train for 2 - 3 hours a day. Right now with doing one muscle group and cardio I am already there for an hour and a half. I would love to be in the gym for 2 hours a day but just not feesable in my life. I also don't compete..just like to look like I do lol


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Cobra Strike said:


> I have to agree that training a specific muscle more than once a week will provide more results. My shoulders use to be lagging and I wanted to build them so I trained them on Thursday and Saturday. Thursday would be hypertrophic and sat would be heavy. The only issue I have with your splits is that I just don't have the time to train for 2 - 3 hours a day. Right now with doing one muscle group and cardio I am already there for an hour and a half. I would love to be in the gym for 2 hours a day but just not feesable in my life. I also don't compete..just like to look like I do lol



That's where volume control and focusing on quality, rather than quantity, comes in 

In all seriousness, the most optimal programme on paper means nothing if people cannot follow it in reality...adherence > everything else.


----------



## Cobra Strike

MrRippedZilla said:


> That's where volume control and focusing on quality, rather than quantity, comes in
> 
> In all seriousness, the most optimal programme on paper means nothing if people cannot follow it in reality...adherence > everything else.



Oh I am all about quality my man. My workouts are definitely not geared to volume. I.e. today was chest...all are 4 sets with 12 - 20 rep ranges. Incline smith 4 sec negatives with a super set to failure at the end/flat bench dumbbell press to failure w/4 sec negatives/Low cable flys x 20 reps/high cable flys x 20 reps and a super set slow push hammer strength press to failure after each set. Takes me about 35-40 minutes to do. then add on 40 minutes of cardio...that's plenty of time in the gym for me. Of course not everyones schedule is as demanding as mine and then there is the if you want it bad enough you will make it happen thing...I balance.


----------



## TKC432

Resurrecting a month old thread ... my specialty   
I firmly agree with the 2x per week advantage over the usual 'Bro Split' .... from years of personal experience I grow better with increased frequency.  I too have a hectic demanding schedule and I can only hit the gym 4 days a week so what has worked thus far for me is the PPL approach .... Mon-Push, Tue-Pull, Wed-Off, Thu-Legs, Fri-Push .... and then keep it rotating so the following Mon-Pull, Tue-Legs,Wed-off, Thu-Push, Fri-Pull and so on and so on .... with this approach each week sees one of the three done twice in that week but if you look at the time between each muscle group it never goes over 7 days before being hit 2x.  So this fills the need for increased frequency while allowing for a 4 day protocol for those of us with busy schedules ... and it keeps it interesting since each week is slightly different ..... Not Chest every Monday like the rest of the world ... So, if anyone sees where this can be improved upon please feel free to chime in ... always learning


----------



## Mind2muscle

When I first started out when I was 15 or so I only trained Chest and bi's (stupid I know) but I would train them 3xa week and the mass came on very quickly.  Albeit it was also due to me being a beginner.  I currently train 2 body parts per session....back/bis, chest/tris, shoulders/accessory/lagging and legs.  I want to try to make this even more compact so I can increase the frequency I hit each muscle group per week.


----------



## jonbana

Going for MASS currently bro split.......
chest tri
back bi
shoulders
legs
arms
rest
rest

 I have all the time to workout everyday and endless hours

I was thinking this

chest/back
shoulders arms
legs 
repeat 
rest one day

or maybe a PPL PPL rest

looking for maximum mass im thinking the first option may be better can focus more direct work but not sure

ive done ppl before but found I got lean didn't bulk well on it could of been calories not sure yes ppl seems more popular than my first split but I don't miss a day in the gym and have the time to train


----------



## MrRippedZilla

jonbana said:


> Going for MASS currently bro split.......
> chest tri
> back bi
> shoulders
> legs
> arms
> rest
> rest
> 
> I have all the time to workout everyday and endless hours
> 
> I was thinking this
> 
> chest/back
> shoulders arms
> legs
> repeat
> rest one day
> 
> or maybe a PPL PPL rest
> 
> looking for maximum mass im thinking the first option may be better can focus more direct work but not sure
> 
> ive done ppl before but found I got lean didn't bulk well on it could of been calories not sure yes ppl seems more popular than my first split but I don't miss a day in the gym and have the time to train



I think you need to reread my original post since I made it pretty clear that the bro split, your 1st option, SUCKS and is not better than option 2 in any way, shape or form when it comes to achieving "maximum mass". 

Getting lean is diet dependent so I suggest you go with option 2 while visiting the diet section to make sure your in a caloric surplus (calculate your TDEE, eat above it) with sufficient protein & carbs to fuel muscle growth.


----------



## ECKSRATED

I've been doing ppl now for about five weeks. I love it. I've dropped to a trt dose and am still fuller and look better already. But damn my legs are beat up sometimes from the frequent deads and squats. Lol

I'd suggest only deadlifting ever other pull day if u deadlift


----------



## ron1204

ECKSRATED said:


> I've been doing ppl now for about five weeks. I love it. I've dropped to a trt dose and am still fuller and look better already. But damn my legs are beat up sometimes from the frequent deads and squats. Lol
> 
> I'd suggest only deadlifting ever other pull day if u deadlift



Same with me I started doing this about 6 weeks ago and I see a good difference even on trt dose


----------



## jonbana

MrRippedZilla said:


> I think you need to reread my original post since I made it pretty clear that the bro split, your 1st option, SUCKS and is not better than option 2 in any way, shape or form when it comes to achieving "maximum mass".
> 
> Getting lean is diet dependent so I suggest you go with option 2 while visiting the diet section to make sure your in a caloric surplus (calculate your TDEE, eat above it) with sufficient protein & carbs to fuel muscle growth.




that's why I gave to options....


#1 was
chest/back
Shoulders Arms
Legs
repeat 
rest one day

#2 was PPL

but I feel #1 would get more gains but not sure that's a lot of volume specially the shoulder arm day... I would like 5 movements for shoulders than 3 for tris and 3 for bies


----------



## MrRippedZilla

jonbana said:


> that's why I gave to options....
> 
> #1 was
> chest/back
> Shoulders Arms
> Legs
> repeat
> rest one day
> 
> #2 was PPL
> 
> but I feel #1 would get more gains but not sure that's a lot of volume specially the shoulder arm day... I would like 5 movements for shoulders than 3 for tris and 3 for bies



Without knowing the exact setup as it pertains to volume, its impossible to determine which split will give you "more gains". 
I will say that option 2 is still better since doing shoulders/arms after chest/back is stupid. If you must do option 1, then go with chest/back > legs > shoulders/arms > off > repeat instead. 

I also think 5 movements for the shoulders & 3 for bi/tris is complete overkill - much better to specialize & bump up the volume on a few carefully chosen movements rather than spreading yourself too thin. 
A compound shoulder movement, some direct lateral & rear delt work - done. 
A standard (CG bench, pushdowns, etc) & overhead tricep movement - done. 
3 movements for bi's isn't an issue as long as your using different techniques for each one rather than just doing 3 types of curls because **** it why not. Wide grip, narrow grip, one to focus on the eccentric (incline curls), one to focus on contraction (cable curls) and so on.


----------



## jonbana

I was thinking this just don't know how working chest back gonna go , not sure if ill be able to put 100% into back so maybe first day chest back than the next time start with back than chest

chest back

incline bench
incline fly
flat bench
chest dip

wide pulldown
straight arm pulldown
barbell row
single arm row



shoulders arms

shoulder over head press
side lateral raise
rear lateral raise
upright row
shrugs

close grip bench
over head press
push down

barbell curl
preacher curl
hammer curl

legs

squats
dead lifts
leg press
walking lunges 
leg extensions
leg curls 
calf raises


im use to one body part a day low volume high intensity my chest hurts for 4-5 days after I work it


----------



## MrRippedZilla

jonbana said:


> I was thinking this just don't know how working chest back gonna go , not sure if ill be able to put 100% into back so maybe first day chest back than the next time start with back than chest
> 
> chest back
> 
> incline bench
> incline fly
> flat bench
> chest dip
> 
> wide pulldown
> straight arm pulldown
> barbell row
> single arm row
> 
> 
> 
> shoulders arms
> 
> shoulder over head press
> side lateral raise
> rear lateral raise
> upright row
> shrugs
> 
> close grip bench
> over head press
> push down
> 
> barbell curl
> preacher curl
> hammer curl
> 
> legs
> 
> squats
> dead lifts
> leg press
> walking lunges
> leg extensions
> leg curls
> calf raises
> 
> 
> im use to one body part a day low volume high intensity my chest hurts for 4-5 days after I work it



For chest/back you would need to alternate between the two rather than doing 4 chest movements and then 4 back - not easy in the typical gym environment but possible. I still think you have way too many movements in general but w/e...good luck with it. 

Also, the more frequently you train, the less DOMs you will get - just another reason why the bros split sucks.


----------



## ECKSRATED

No way I could hit back and chest on the same day. 

Do the push pull legs man. Just keep rotating which muscle group u hit the hardest. It allows u to hit each muscle more frequently but also allows u to recover properly. I used to love the bro splits when I did more of a bodybuilding routine. Now powerlifting and doing a PPL I can still destroy the big three and get a lot of accessory work in. 

PPL really is just a split 
Push...Chest shoulders Tris

Pull.... Back bis deadlift

Legs... Legs. 

The more frequent training is what I like tho. Sunday I destroyed chest with 3 movements then did some lateral raises for shoulders then some extensions for Tris. Next push day I'll start with ohp then two more shoulder movements then some flies and close grip or something similar. Loving it so far


----------



## ToolSteel

I remember when I trained body parts


----------



## jonbana

MrRippedZilla said:


> For chest/back you would need to alternate between the two rather than doing 4 chest movements and then 4 back - not easy in the typical gym environment but possible. I still think you have way too many movements in general but w/e...good luck with it.
> 
> Also, the more frequently you train, the less DOMs you will get - just another reason why the bros split sucks.



yeah chest back isn't floating my boat two major muscle groups same day


----------



## jonbana

ECKSRATED said:


> No way I could hit back and chest on the same day.
> 
> Do the push pull legs man. Just keep rotating which muscle group u hit the hardest. It allows u to hit each muscle more frequently but also allows u to recover properly. I used to love the bro splits when I did more of a bodybuilding routine. Now powerlifting and doing a PPL I can still destroy the big three and get a lot of accessory work in.
> 
> PPL really is just a split
> Push...Chest shoulders Tris
> 
> Pull.... Back bis deadlift
> 
> Legs... Legs.
> 
> The more frequent training is what I like tho. Sunday I destroyed chest with 3 movements then did some lateral raises for shoulders then some extensions for Tris. Next push day I'll start with ohp then two more shoulder movements then some flies and close grip or something similar. Loving it so far



yeah I might go back to ppl  least I can put 100% into chest the next day back    I don't see doing chest and back same day one will not get 100% I had great results ppl before but I was cutting not bulking I went ppl rest pp rest repeat only legs once as they are big enough but this time ppl ppl rest 

but the more I think of it high volume ppl seems better than chest back just because you can focus the big muscles first each day and the smaller ones tag along


----------



## Seeker

Like zilla said, if one tries to do chest/back same workout, alternating sets is the only way to do this.  I actually tried doing full body workouts 3 days a week a few  years back for 4 weeks as part of a 6 month training/dieting/AAS experiment I did and I enjoyed the experience.


----------



## ECKSRATED

ToolSteel said:


> I remember when I trained body parts



Nothing wrong with wanting to look good and build muscle. Not everyone only cares about a total Mr tool.


----------



## ToolSteel

ECKSRATED said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting to look good and build muscle. Not everyone only cares about a total Mr tool.



Hey, I care a little. Pre-pl I was a fan of PPL.


----------



## Baxter513

MrRippedZilla said:


> Full body
> 
> Mon - Full body, 12-15 reps
> Tues
> Wed - Full body, 3-5 reps
> Thurs
> Fri - Full body, 8-10 reps
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> - This is an ideal split for beginners who have experienced a few months of full body, linear training within a fixed rep range but still produces better results in advanced lifters as well (yes, full body > bro split).
> - The incorporation of a high-low-mid undulating rep range is done specifically to max out 8RMs, which IME is the key training indicator for muscle growth (separated from strength, work capacity, etc).
> - The mixture of reps also allows us to take advantage of the different pathways for hypertrophy (tension, fatigue, stress, etc).
> 
> 
> RippedZilla



Sorry for the noob question but what would a routine like this look like?  Which exercises and how many sets?  I do understand the rep ranges but wondering if the routine would be all compound movements?  

I am a beginner training for 2 months and I have been doing Stronglifts 5x5.  After finishing my 12 weeks I would like to switch over to a hypertrophy based program.  

Am very grateful for advice from you guys  =)    I work out at home so dont have access to machines or cables.  Just Olympic barbell, Olympic dumbells, bench, squat rack and a pullup/dips bar and resistance bands to help me complete reps on pullups/dips.  I also have Olympic EZ-Curl bar.  And 300 lbs of plates


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Baxter513 said:


> Sorry for the noob question but what would a routine like this look like?  Which exercises and how many sets?  I do understand the rep ranges but wondering if the routine would be all compound movements?
> 
> I am a beginner training for 2 months and I have been doing Stronglifts 5x5.  After finishing my 12 weeks I would like to switch over to a hypertrophy based program.
> 
> Am very grateful for advice from you guys  =)    I work out at home so dont have access to machines or cables.  Just Olympic barbell, Olympic dumbells, bench, squat rack and a pullup/dips bar and resistance bands to help me complete reps on pullups/dips.  I also have Olympic EZ-Curl bar.  And 300 lbs of plates



Noob questions are always welcomed, the whole point of these articles is to educate after all, so no need for the apology 

Firstly, I will say that if stronglifts is working well for you then there is no need to switch anything - keep doing what works until it doesn't. 
For my full body template, you would incorporate a mix of compound & iso work in each session. Transitioning from stronglifts it would probably look something like this:

Squats/deadlift
Bench/Overhead
Barbell row
Leg extension/calf raises
Lateral raises/chest flyes
Curls/face pulls
Abs/low back/core work (RKC planks, ab wheel, etc)

- 2-3 sets of 12-15, 5-6 sets of 3-5, 3-4 sets of 8-10 for the compound lifts.
- 1 set of 15-20, 2 sets of 8, 1-2 sets of 10-12 for accessory lifts. 
- You can remove as much accessory work to make it all compound movements if you wish depending on your weaknesses, the template above is simply what most beginners choose/need to work on. 
- You can also rotate movements in/out over 4-5 weeks so that you can build up your experience level and learn what works/doesn't work for you provided the movements have some degree of similarity (deadlift - RDL - SLDL, Row - Pendlay row - DB row - yates row, etc). I've simply used the compound lifts your used to as a demonstration in the template.


----------



## Baxter513

MrRippedZilla said:


> Noob questions are always welcomed, the whole point of these articles is to educate after all, so no need for the apology
> 
> Firstly, I will say that if stronglifts is working well for you then there is no need to switch anything - keep doing what works until it doesn't.
> For my full body template, you would incorporate a mix of compound & iso work in each session. Transitioning from stronglifts it would probably look something like this:
> 
> Squats/deadlift
> Bench/Overhead
> Barbell row
> Leg extension/calf raises
> Lateral raises/chest flyes
> Curls/face pulls
> Abs/low back/core work (RKC planks, ab wheel, etc)
> 
> - 2-3 sets of 12-15, 5-6 sets of 3-5, 3-4 sets of 8-10 for the compound lifts.
> - 1 set of 15-20, 2 sets of 8, 1-2 sets of 10-12 for accessory lifts.
> - You can remove as much accessory work to make it all compound movements if you wish depending on your weaknesses, the template above is simply what most beginners choose/need to work on.
> - You can also rotate movements in/out over 4-5 weeks so that you can build up your experience level and learn what works/doesn't work for you provided the movements have some degree of similarity (deadlift - RDL - SLDL, Row - Pendlay row - DB row - yates row, etc). I've simply used the compound lifts your used to as a demonstration in the template.



Thanks RippedZilla,

Good to see you on this board.  I read some of your earlier articles from Steroidology and have a great deal of respect for your analysis.  

I just got banned over at that board because the admin Milton had deleted my post where I gave my opinion on protein intake.  When I PMed him and asked him why he is censoring me I got banned.

Then I created a new account and PMed him again asking him to explain what it is about my post that was grounds for it to be censored?  And he banned me again.  No explanation whatsoever.  

All I said is that I thought anyone taking more than 2x their bodyweight in protein powder was wasting their money.  And that was enough to get me censored.  Unbelievable!


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Baxter513 said:


> Thanks RippedZilla,
> Good to see you on this board.  I read some of your earlier articles from Steroidology and have a great deal of respect for your analysis.
> I just got banned over at that board because the admin Milton had deleted my post where I gave my opinion on protein intake.  When I PMed him and asked him why he is censoring me I got banned.
> Then I created a new account and PMed him again asking him to explain what it is about my post that was grounds for it to be censored?  And he banned me again.  No explanation whatsoever.
> All I said is that I thought anyone taking more than 2x their bodyweight in protein powder was wasting their money.  And that was enough to get me censored.  Unbelievable!



Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there. 

Welcome to UG


----------



## Baxter513

MrRippedZilla said:


> Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there.
> 
> Welcome to UG



I agree with you 100%.  I will say one positive thing about that website and that is their Search Engine Optimization.  Almost any Google search on aas cycles leads directly to their forum.    But I can see its all a big funnel designed to get noobs to purchase from their crap sponsors.  Thanks again for this routine.  As you say I will stay on Stronglifts until I hit the wall and then switch over to your suggested Hypertrophy program.  I have made steady and consistent gains on all the compound movements except those darn Overhead Press I have to use fractional plates and move up only 2lbs instead of in 5 lb increments each workout.  I think I am g2g for at least 6 months or at least 4 months on Stronglifts.  Started at 128lbs now up to 148lbs in bodyweight in 6 weeks.  Bodyfat is close to 19%  I am typical skinny-fat dude.  In a T-shirt I look skinny.  With no shirt my body has a pear shape with a big distended spare tire and love handles.    

Sadly most of the weight is going to my spare tire and love handles.  Only about 25% of the weight gain is going to my muscles, LoL


----------



## mrmichael

MrRippedZilla said:


> Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there.
> 
> Welcome to UG



MrRip. I been taking ur advice and swapped routines. I'm having trouble contacting u to ask u this question. So I'll just post it here again.

Mon & TH
Flat x3 4-12, Incline x2 6-12, Flies x2 8-15
Press x3 6-12, Front x2 8-15, Sides x2 8-15
Dips x3 10-15, Tri x2 10-15, Bar x2 10-15


Tues & FRI
Tbar x3 6-12, Rows x2 6-12, Wide x3 6-12, Close x2 6-12
Rear x3 6-12, Shrugs x3 6-12
Ez x3 6-12, Hammer x2 6-12, Rev Curls x2 6-12


WED & SAT
Hams x3 6-12, Squats x4 6-12, Quads x3 6-12
Calves x3 6-15
Upper x3 6-15, Lower x3 6-15, Obl x3 6-15

SUN: OFF


Setup: PPL,PPL, OFF

Would this routine work as a efficient PPL & Low volume setup for OPTIMAL growth on moderate dosage cycle?

Can u please ad in some feedback. Should I adjust the volume for certain exercises or what else do u think? 

Thank u so much friend

PS: I am also a old user from the ology. Milton has been a pain on that forum and pretty much banned me on there and killed all my rep I earned.
Have u seen where halfwit went off to btw? It's a little off topic, but he was a good guy


----------



## MrRippedZilla

mrmichael said:


> MrRip. I been taking ur advice and swapped routines. I'm having trouble contacting u to ask u this question. So I'll just post it here again.
> 
> Mon & TH
> Flat x3 4-12, Incline x2 6-12, Flies x2 8-15
> Press x3 6-12, Front x2 8-15, Sides x2 8-15
> Dips x3 10-15, Tri x2 10-15, Bar x2 10-15
> 
> 
> Tues & FRI
> Tbar x3 6-12, Rows x2 6-12, Wide x3 6-12, Close x2 6-12
> Rear x3 6-12, Shrugs x3 6-12
> Ez x3 6-12, Hammer x2 6-12, Rev Curls x2 6-12
> 
> 
> WED & SAT
> Hams x3 6-12, Squats x4 6-12, Quads x3 6-12
> Calves x3 6-15
> Upper x3 6-15, Lower x3 6-15, Obl x3 6-15
> 
> SUN: OFF
> 
> 
> Setup: PPL,PPL, OFF
> 
> Would this routine work as a efficient PPL & Low volume setup for OPTIMAL growth on moderate dosage cycle?
> Can u please ad in some feedback. Should I adjust the volume for certain exercises or what else do u think?
> 
> Thank u so much friend
> 
> PS: I am also a old user from the ology. Milton has been a pain on that forum and pretty much banned me on there and killed all my rep I earned.
> Have u seen where halfwit went off to btw? It's a little off topic, but he was a good guy



For your push day, I personally think front raises are a waste of time for the majority and don't see the need for 3 tricep movements but apart from that, it's fine.

Pull day I'd add some sort of vertical pulling into the mix (lat pulldowns, pullups, etc) and sacrifice one form of row (a wide, narrow, and neutral form with rotating grips is more than enough). 
3 bicep movements may be excessive unless they're a weak point your trying to bring up in which I'd get rid of hammer curls and bring in db incline or cable variations instead. 
Don't be afraid to go with 15 rep sets for back either; the trap family are a bunch of slow-twitch muscles and tend to respond to bit higher volume. 

For legs I'd bump up the volume pretty dramatically, at least equal to your push/pull days though ideally more than that. 
You really want to have a compound quad dominant move (squats, leg press, etc), either an isolation or single leg quad dominant move (leg extensions, split squats, etc), a hip hinge movement focused on the hamstrings or glutes (RDL, hip thrusts, etc) along with something extra to cover whatever isn't the main focus during the hip hinge movement (leg curls for hams, kickbacks/pull-throughs for glutes, etc) and something for calves to finish it off. That's a minimum of 5 movements for me. 
Core training is whatever you want it to be depending on your weaknesses. I personally have folks do stuff like RKC planks, etc just to maintain strength since lack of development is rarely an issue for most (too much fat is). 

If you've been following me for a while then you know how I feel about Ology - no valuable member belongs, or can now be found, there. 
Halfwit is a member here and pops in now and again. I'm in contact with him on a regular basis and he's also been banned on Ology for no apparent reason - says a lot doesn't it


----------



## mrmichael

MrRippedZilla said:


> For your push day, I personally think front raises are a waste of time for the majority and don't see the need for 3 tricep movements but apart from that, it's fine.
> 
> Pull day I'd add some sort of vertical pulling into the mix (lat pulldowns, pullups, etc) and sacrifice one form of row (a wide, narrow, and neutral form with rotating grips is more than enough).
> 3 bicep movements may be excessive unless they're a weak point your trying to bring up in which I'd get rid of hammer curls and bring in db incline or cable variations instead.
> Don't be afraid to go with 15 rep sets for back either; the trap family are a bunch of slow-twitch muscles and tend to respond to bit higher volume.
> 
> For legs I'd bump up the volume pretty dramatically, at least equal to your push/pull days though ideally more than that.
> You really want to have a compound quad dominant move (squats, leg press, etc), either an isolation or single leg quad dominant move (leg extensions, split squats, etc), a hip hinge movement focused on the hamstrings or glutes (RDL, hip thrusts, etc) along with something extra to cover whatever isn't the main focus during the hip hinge movement (leg curls for hams, kickbacks/pull-throughs for glutes, etc) and something for calves to finish it off. That's a minimum of 5 movements for me.
> Core training is whatever you want it to be depending on your weaknesses. I personally have folks do stuff like RKC planks, etc just to maintain strength since lack of development is rarely an issue for most (too much fat is).
> 
> If you've been following me for a while then you know how I feel about Ology - no valuable member belongs, or can now be found, there.
> Halfwit is a member here and pops in now and again. I'm in contact with him on a regular basis and he's also been banned on Ology for no apparent reason - says a lot doesn't it



Thank you. I have a few more questions based on your answer.
-In general do u think the volume I setup total for my Push & Pull day is Fine and it would NOT be considered over training? I primarily want to get it done within a hourish in the gym?

-How would u fix my tricep & Bicep movements and volume? My Arms are a weak point in general for me. 

-U might have misunderstood my back routine. I do: Tbar, Rows....Then the last two are wide grip lats and close grip lats. Does that cover it?


-I'm more worried about the volume cause I tend to get carried away with drop sets and pump crazy in the gym and even eating outrageous amounts of calories to fuel it geared with AAS I could not still grow on a PPL split very well and put on mostly fat last time around...So I REALLY want that to be in check tbh. Would u consider over training in terms of volume or sets done for the day? I will adjust the tips u added and more too!

I did not know that about half. What is his username on here? U and him are the only 2 guys I ever looked up too on the ology and always appreciated the help.


----------



## MrRippedZilla

mrmichael said:


> Thank you. I have a few more questions based on your answer.
> -In general do u think the volume I setup total for my Push & Pull day is Fine and it would NOT be considered over training? I primarily want to get it done within a hourish in the gym?
> 
> -How would u fix my tricep & Bicep movements and volume? My Arms are a weak point in general for me.
> 
> -U might have misunderstood my back routine. I do: Tbar, Rows....Then the last two are wide grip lats and close grip lats. Does that cover it?
> 
> 
> -I'm more worried about the volume cause I tend to get carried away with drop sets and pump crazy in the gym and even eating outrageous amounts of calories to fuel it geared with AAS I could not still grow on a PPL split very well and put on mostly fat last time around...So I REALLY want that to be in check tbh. Would u consider over training in terms of volume or sets done for the day? I will adjust the tips u added and more too!
> 
> I did not know that about half. What is his username on here? U and him are the only 2 guys I ever looked up too on the ology and always appreciated the help.



1) I think your volume is fine. Whether you'll get it done in an hour or not depends on your rest periods and, honestly, isn't something I'd focus too much on. "Optimal" routines don't involve time limits, you rest as much as you need to perform as well as you can. 

2) If you arms are a weak point and I was working with you I'd probably bump the frequency to 3x week, with 3 movements for bis (1 for max weight, 1 for max eccentric, one for max concentric) and 2 for tri's (overhead for the long head, whatever else for the other heads). Reps would be mixed with a focus on the lower side for tri's and mid-high for bi's. 
Of course I'd also complete alter your PPL to keep everything else at maintenance while we bring up arms so...yea. 

3) Your right, I did misunderstand your back routine. It sounds fine but I'd still add some vertical pulling in at least for one of the weekly pull sessions. 

4) If your progressing, as in weight is going up, I can't see how you wouldn't grow on decent gear. 
Volume is easy to control with deloads and back cycles. Deload = drop volume 10-30% every 6-10 weeks to let fatigue dissipate before going hard again. Backcycle = drop weight 15% before working your way, slowly, back up again (the time it takes for you to return to your PB weights, fatigue will be gone, gainz continue). 
Those are 2 easy ways to control volume and it comes down to personal preference which one you go for. There are other ways but this isn't a programming course and I don't want to make things too complicated - if your interested in more info, read this.

Half's username is the same here, he can be found on the "members list" option under the "community" option tab at the top or somewhere in my friends list.


----------



## mrmichael

MrRippedZilla said:


> 1) I think your volume is fine. Whether you'll get it done in an hour or not depends on your rest periods and, honestly, isn't something I'd focus too much on. "Optimal" routines don't involve time limits, you rest as much as you need to perform as well as you can.
> 
> 2) If you arms are a weak point and I was working with you I'd probably bump the frequency to 3x week, with 3 movements for bis (1 for max weight, 1 for max eccentric, one for max concentric) and 2 for tri's (overhead for the long head, whatever else for the other heads). Reps would be mixed with a focus on the lower side for tri's and mid-high for bi's.
> Of course I'd also complete alter your PPL to keep everything else at maintenance while we bring up arms so...yea.
> 
> 3) Your right, I did misunderstand your back routine. It sounds fine but I'd still add some vertical pulling in at least for one of the weekly pull sessions.
> 
> 4) If your progressing, as in weight is going up, I can't see how you wouldn't grow on decent gear.
> Volume is easy to control with deloads and back cycles. Deload = drop volume 10-30% every 6-10 weeks to let fatigue dissipate before going hard again. Backcycle = drop weight 15% before working your way, slowly, back up again (the time it takes for you to return to your PB weights, fatigue will be gone, gainz continue).
> Those are 2 easy ways to control volume and it comes down to personal preference which one you go for. There are other ways but this isn't a programming course and I don't want to make things too complicated -
> 
> Half's username is the same here, he can be found on the "members list" option under the "community" option tab at the top or somewhere in my friends list.




I have a few more Q's on my mind. Little off topic though, I apologise. I can't PM till my post count is 25+ lol

Last time around I did very high volume ( for ex: x4 sets, with like 2-5 more drop sets alone for something like Flat), then I would do the rest of my Push routine the same way e3d and I did not grow from it even eating 4500+ cals. I had to eat cheat meals (junk food) and I ended up looking terrible by the end. Do u not think volume control to freq is what makes growth paired with AAS stacks and a good surplus?

I've been running tren e at 800mg (approaching end of week 3). I haven't felt much on it so far in terms of sides. Do u think I won't feel anything on it till weeks 5-6 even at that dosage? I ran 400 long time ago and I felt the sweats around 5-6 I recall. 

In terms of Orals. I been on 3 weeks of 100mg Dbol ED. (Yes I have LOTS of liver support). The only side I feel bad is insane back pumps that make it so I can't even squat proper. I been taking 50 post workout and 50 before bed. Would u time the orals another way for optimal growth? (not looking for str)

How much do u charge for PT? I'm in the USA


----------



## Milo

My 2 cents:

1. Tren isn't the best option out there in terms of gaining size (I assume you want to gain size considering you said you aren't looking for strength). Nandrolone, Test, Dbol would be a better option I think.

2. You're running Tren E, so I wouldn't expect anything miraculous out of it just yet. Remember it's Enanthate and takes a minute to spool up.

3. Volume is the word of the day when it comes to hypertrophy. But when you have long drawn-out workouts coupled with a shit ton of Tren, it's going to be hard to put on a lot of weight. You say you eat a lot and I believe that, but you REALLY need to eat some serious amounts of food with what you're doing. I wouldn't consider anything a "cheat meal". You should be eating everything in sight.

4. I want to write more but I've got some shit to do. Will return...


----------



## trodizzle

DieYoungStrong said:


> Day 1 - Deadlift, bench assistance
> off
> Day 2 - Bench, squat assistance
> off
> Day 3 - Squat, posterior chain fukkery
> off
> Day 4 - curls for the girls
> 
> Diet - Miller High Life's and red meat



Miller High Life eh... Isn't that some sort of double-negative?


----------



## mrmichael

Milo said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> 1. Tren isn't the best option out there in terms of gaining size (I assume you want to gain size considering you said you aren't looking for strength). Nandrolone, Test, Dbol would be a better option I think.
> 
> 2. You're running Tren E, so I wouldn't expect anything miraculous out of it just yet. Remember it's Enanthate and takes a minute to spool up.
> 
> 3. Volume is the word of the day when it comes to hypertrophy. But when you have long drawn-out workouts coupled with a shit ton of Tren, it's going to be hard to put on a lot of weight. You say you eat a lot and I believe that, but you REALLY need to eat some serious amounts of food with what you're doing. I wouldn't consider anything a "cheat meal". You should be eating everything in sight.
> 
> 4. I want to write more but I've got some shit to do. Will return...



Not really understanding anything ur saying. I've never ran deca.. I've always used tren for mass. 

Was thinking of doing a 16 week 1g deca and maybe like low test (500mg) alongside some sort of oral. Something like tbol maybe. Oxys destroy my appt too bad, I've done it again and again. Dbol does well for me for some reason. 

Why do u need to eat so much on tren? i don't see it being very special. I'm opting to be in the gym for a short amount of time with low volume high freq routine above. I can grow in the range of 4000-5000 calories between my set weight in the 185-200 range. Or atleast that was the macro split I was doing when I had high volume-drop sets twice PW to gain size.


----------



## DreamChaser

Good Read .......


----------



## ECKSRATED

Gram of deca and 500 test? Careful with that brother might kill your cock. I've ran deca hundreds of times and found deca over 800 really isn't worth it IMO. I shouldn't say worth it but i run 600-800 deca with test around the same for the best results and least sides. That's just me.


----------



## mrmichael

ECKSRATED said:


> Gram of deca and 500 test? Careful with that brother might kill your cock. I've ran deca hundreds of times and found deca over 800 really isn't worth it IMO. I shouldn't say worth it but i run 600-800 deca with test around the same for the best results and least sides. That's just me.



im running 800 tren and 600 test and it's doing fine. I don't think the reverse combo effects every 1 the same way IMO, but I will defo keep it in consideration. I can't say much since I never ran deca before. I always get duped into running higher tren than the last lol.


----------



## Milo

mrmichael said:


> Not really understanding anything ur saying. I've never ran deca.. I've always used tren for mass.
> 
> Was thinking of doing a 16 week 1g deca and maybe like low test (500mg) alongside some sort of oral. Something like tbol maybe. Oxys destroy my appt too bad, I've done it again and again. Dbol does well for me for some reason.
> 
> Why do u need to eat so much on tren? i don't see it being very special. I'm opting to be in the gym for a short amount of time with low volume high freq routine above. I can grow in the range of 4000-5000 calories between my set weight in the 185-200 range. Or atleast that was the macro split I was doing when I had high volume-drop sets twice PW to gain size.



Let me re-word my statement. Both will put on mass. Comes down to a thicker rounder bloat mass vs a hard lean dry mass as I'm sure you know. For me personally, Tren made me sweat so god damn much that I could hardly stay hydrated and keep my weight up. I'd go to bed at 215 and wake up around 207. Throughout the day I felt like I was always in a workout huffing and puffing, sweating my ass off. It was hard to keep the weight up compared to Nandrolone where it held it all and the scale would go up on almost a daily basis. 

As far as drop sets  and volume go; my view has changed recently in reading some studies put out by Dr Mike Isratel in regards to volume in hypertrophy. It goes like this: Work in mesocycles which are typically 3 weeks long, steadily increasing the volume each week. At the third week mark you will then perform your overload sets (i.e dropsets etc). The fourth week is somewhat of a deload where you drop your volume back down and get ready to hit it harder the next week. The goal here is to work up to your MRV (Maximum Recoverable Volume) which as the name implies is the maximum amount of volume you can do and still recover for the next workout. After you hit your MRV, you'll over-reach by doing dropsets or something similar. The deload following this will aid your recovery (you've exceeded your MRV) then when you start a new mesocycle you will be doing more in the first week than you were doing in the first week of your last mesocycle.
Hope this makes sense. It's worked extremely well for me. I used to do drop sets all the damn time and I don't think it's very effective. They should be used smartly, not to just beat you into the ground.


----------



## MrRippedZilla

mrmichael said:


> I have a few more Q's on my mind. Little off topic though, I apologise. I can't PM till my post count is 25+ lol
> 
> Last time around I did very high volume ( for ex: x4 sets, with like 2-5 more drop sets alone for something like Flat), then I would do the rest of my Push routine the same way e3d and I did not grow from it even eating 4500+ cals. I had to eat cheat meals (junk food) and I ended up looking terrible by the end. Do u not think volume control to freq is what makes growth paired with AAS stacks and a good surplus?
> 
> I've been running tren e at 800mg (approaching end of week 3). I haven't felt much on it so far in terms of sides. Do u think I won't feel anything on it till weeks 5-6 even at that dosage? I ran 400 long time ago and I felt the sweats around 5-6 I recall.
> 
> In terms of Orals. I been on 3 weeks of 100mg Dbol ED. (Yes I have LOTS of liver support). The only side I feel bad is insane back pumps that make it so I can't even squat proper. I been taking 50 post workout and 50 before bed. Would u time the orals another way for optimal growth? (not looking for str)
> 
> How much do u charge for PT? I'm in the USA



Volume control is important and, as I said in my previous post, there are many ways to go about it with no one way being "optimal". However, the point I really want to emphasize is that mechanical load ALWAYS beats both muscle damage & metabolic stress as the best stimulus for growth. Focus on increasing the load on the volume your using while adding in more volume GRADUALLY over time - not the other way round. 

I am a believer in being able to grow on any amount of quality gear provided the dose, like the training, is gradually increased over time. 
That being said, Milo makes a fair point about tren's ability to limit endurance and that certainly can make high volume training a struggle (the answer would be to adopt a low volume protocol while on it and not rely on stress/damage as the primary stimuli as I said before). Of course you also have to consider the fact that your gear may be bunk, which if it came from an Ology source like PSL is highly likely. 

Once you can PM, I think its 10 or 25 posts, I'll let you know my rates for online coaching but be warned that I'm not cheap 

Beyond that if you have other questions to ask that are beyond the scope of this thread, I encourage you to start your own and let the guys chime in rather than invade here.


----------



## mrmichael

MrRippedZilla said:


> Volume control is important and, as I said in my previous post, there are many ways to go about it with no one way being "optimal". However, the point I really want to emphasize is that mechanical load ALWAYS beats both muscle damage & metabolic stress as the best stimulus for growth. Focus on increasing the load on the volume your using while adding in more volume GRADUALLY over time - not the other way round.
> 
> I am a believer in being able to grow on any amount of quality gear provided the dose, like the training, is gradually increased over time.
> That being said, Milo makes a fair point about tren's ability to limit endurance and that certainly can make high volume training a struggle (the answer would be to adopt a low volume protocol while on it and not rely on stress/damage as the primary stimuli as I said before). Of course you also have to consider the fact that your gear may be bunk, which if it came from an Ology source like PSL is highly likely.
> 
> Once you can PM, I think its 10 or 25 posts, I'll let you know my rates for online coaching but be warned that I'm not cheap
> 
> Beyond that if you have other questions to ask that are beyond the scope of this thread, I encourage you to start your own and let the guys chime in rather than invade here.



Ok, I will make new threads and PM u when I can.

I didn't get a PSL source. I used Gentech (If u ever heard of it). I'm just wondering though, u didn't state if I'd feel that type of dosage before 5-6 weeks. My endurance is lacking TBH. I will work with lower volume, increasing weight on the routine we discussed. I'll pm u about the rates.


----------



## PerfectSavage

This is great. I'm going to give it a shot here in the next week or so. I am extremely against the "once a week" hit for a muscle group, even when lifting natty. and its always such a pain to create a detailed layout without piling in a bunch of unnecessary numbers that don't make much of a difference in the end. It seems like a great layout for a routine


----------



## Bro Bundy

Mon - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Tues - Back, biceps, side/rear delts
Wed - Legs, core
Thurs - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Fri - Back, biceps, front/side delts
Sat - legs/core
Sun


----------



## Bro Bundy

thats my favorite split zilla wrote..Ive been doing it a while


----------



## mrmichael

Bro Bundy said:


> thats my favorite split zilla wrote..Ive been doing it a while



basically PPL,PPL, Rest routine? I'm doing the same thing bro. I  listed my exact workout/sets/volume and all on one of the pages on here. Zilla said it was gtg. Seems volume is the key with progressive overload. I get sometimes confused on some of the other threads there with guys posting "to grow ur arms, pound them to the ground" when zilla simply says a few sets on a push day will make them grow and u just need freq.... Confuses me...................................??

Anyways, 

can u post ur split in terms of exercises, sets and reps u follow using that protocol? would love u to see them. ALSO, on push day. Do u do chest..arms...shoulders in that order or do u do chest..shoulders...arms..? does it matter? I usually do arms last, but i don't see them growing much tbh compared to delts lol...


----------



## Bro Bundy

mrmichael said:


> basically PPL,PPL, Rest routine? I'm doing the same thing bro. I listed my exact workout/sets/volume and all on one of the pages on here. Zilla said it was gtg. Seems volume is the key with progressive overload. I get sometimes confused on some of the other threads there with guys posting "to grow ur arms, pound them to the ground" when zilla simply says a few sets on a push day will make them grow and u just need freq.... Confuses me...................................?? Anyways, can u post ur split in terms of exercises, sets and reps u follow using that protocol? would love u to see them. ALSO, on push day. Do u do chest..arms...shoulders in that order or do u do chest..shoulders...arms..? does it matter? I usually do arms last, but i don't see them growing much tbh compared to delts lol...


I like to do chest then shoulders tris..I modify it according to how I feel..I stick to basic shit with drop sets and super sets throwin in


----------



## Bro Bundy

Ill be honest that routine for me when im not on gear is hard cause of recovery time..On gear I fukkin loved that split


----------



## MrRippedZilla

mrmichael said:


> basically PPL,PPL, Rest routine? I'm doing the same thing bro. I  listed my exact workout/sets/volume and all on one of the pages on here. Zilla said it was gtg. Seems volume is the key with progressive overload. I get sometimes confused on some of the other threads there with guys posting "to grow ur arms, pound them to the ground" when zilla simply says a few sets on a push day will make them grow and u just need freq.... Confuses me...................................??
> Anyways,
> can u post ur split in terms of exercises, sets and reps u follow using that protocol? would love u to see them. ALSO, on push day. Do u do chest..arms...shoulders in that order or do u do chest..shoulders...arms..? does it matter? I usually do arms last, but i don't see them growing much tbh compared to delts lol...



Dude, this is the second time I'm asking you to not hijack my thread. Seriously, post your own or PM Bundy and I'm sure he'll give you all the details of his training split.


----------



## mrmichael

MrRippedZilla said:


> Dude, this is the second time I'm asking you to not hijack my thread. Seriously, post your own or PM Bundy and I'm sure he'll give you all the details of his training split.



Okay sorry zilla. Didn't mean it that way. Just tried to keep the discussion going. Appreciate the thread man


----------



## Superhenry

This is great knowledge. Thanks


----------



## MrRippedZilla

Forgot about this gem of a thread. Could one of the mods replace my current periodization sticky with this one? Most lifters will be find it far easier to understand & apply. Cheers.


----------



## Send0

MrRippedZilla said:


> Forgot about this gem of a thread. Could one of the mods replace my current periodization sticky with this one? Most lifters will be find it far easier to understand & apply. Cheers.


I could just leave both of them stickied. I think they are both excellent reads.


----------



## Migmaster

Bro Bundy said:


> I love your threads bro..Very educational for all.


Like this. I have much to learn. Thanks for posting


----------



## Yano

This is fantastic. Really well written out I love the threads and discussions I find throughout the day on this forum.


----------



## Rot-Iron66

I kindly disagree. The Pro-Split has been around for ages, and has been proven, tried and true.
Its how you train, intensity and what you put into any program.

Some "modern day know it all's"  think the magic is in the program, and they push their favorite.
If its their favorite, it is the best one (for them). I choose to use the old-school split's (though mine is a bit of a Frankenstein, my days are built around the big-4 (Bench, DL, SQ, OHP) for lower-rep heavy-weights on the main lifts, and hypertrophy stuff on the other sets/exercises. But on paper it looks like a Pro-Split. (Bro-Split is an embarrassingly ghey modern term to call it). The split/program you like the most, is the one that will produce the best results... After 43 years of doing this stuff, Ive tried a ton, and nothing works for me better than the old-school splits. (I enjoy them the most)... I see people program-hopping all the time, and they train like garbage. They will get zero even from the best laid-out routine..


----------



## BelaDublin

Very good


----------



## Fvckinashman

this is a good thread, saving it


----------



## Someidiot

Excellent read thanks for sharing!


----------



## MrRogers

That little smurf jeff nippard has a great PPL split.


----------



## Cronus

Good read. Thanks for taking the time to make it.


----------



## ATLRigger

@MrRippedZilla is it detrimental to lift twice daily when schedule permits? For example, let’s say I’m slammed with 14 hour workday and can’t workout one day.  Would it be okay to say, train back/biceps the next morning, followed by say, shoulders the same evening ?


----------



## MrRippedZilla

ATLRigger said:


> @MrRippedZilla is it detrimental to lift twice daily when schedule permits? For example, let’s say I’m slammed with 14 hour workday and can’t workout one day.  Would it be okay to say, train back/biceps the next morning, followed by say, shoulders the same evening ?


In you're example, it would only be OK if you reduce the volume in both sessions to be equal to the volume of a typical day. Doubling, in other words taking 2 full days worth of work and putting into 1, is not OK.


----------



## ATLRigger

MrRippedZilla said:


> In you're example, it would only be OK if you reduce the volume in both sessions to be equal to the volume of a typical day. Doubling, in other words taking 2 full days worth of work and putting into 1, is not OK.


Ok. How then do you find your optimal volume ?


----------



## RiR0

ATLRigger said:


> Ok. How then do you find your optimal volume ?


Log everything so you know if you’re recovering or not. Are you adding weights or reps or improving form each week? If yes you’re recovering. If not you’re not recovering and training, rest, diet or drugs is the issue.


----------



## MrRippedZilla

ATLRigger said:


> Ok. How then do you find your optimal volume ?


To train twice a day? Take the volume of 2 days work, then half it. In general? Trial and error. Just keep in mind that training frequency & volume per workout have an inverse relationship. The higher the former, the lower the latter.


----------



## ATLRigger

RiR0 said:


> Log everything so you know if you’re recovering or not. Are you adding weights or reps or improving form each week? If yes you’re recovering. If not you’re not recovering and training, rest, diet or drugs is the issue.


I have kept this in mind for a couple weeks and it has helped.  There is hope for @RiR0 after all.


----------



## MetatronTurtle

Fair disclosure, I'm not a fan of brosplits myself. But I can see it being somewhat redeemable if you cheat in some frequency with exercise selection. Just going to list movement examples instead of the whole day.

E.g.
Chest - incline bench (delts), dips (triceps), close grip bench (triceps)
Back - upright rows (shoulders), face pulls (shoulders, some biceps), deadlift (some leg/hams/calves)
Shoulders - incline bench (chest), upright rows/face pulls (rhomboids/traps, upper back)
Arms - close grip bench (chest), dips (chest), close grip pulldowns/chinups (back)
Legs - deadlifts/RDL/SLDL (back), front squat (upper back)

Legs is kind of hard to cheat in elsewhere but considering how much the average bro hates legs... 

That said, using the examples above, with more intelligent exercise selection and focusing on compounds, a brosplit can actually be made viable with a 2 or even 3x/wk frequency. Especially if adding an extra day for lagging parts or deliberately sprinkling in some mishmash.


----------



## MrRippedZilla

MetatronTurtle said:


> Fair disclosure, I'm not a fan of brosplits myself. But I can see it being somewhat redeemable if you cheat in some frequency with exercise selection. Just going to list movement examples instead of the whole day.
> E.g.
> Chest - incline bench (delts), dips (triceps), close grip bench (triceps)
> Back - upright rows (shoulders), face pulls (shoulders, some biceps), deadlift (some leg/hams/calves)
> Shoulders - incline bench (chest), upright rows/face pulls (rhomboids/traps, upper back)
> Arms - close grip bench (chest), dips (chest), close grip pulldowns/chinups (back)
> Legs - deadlifts/RDL/SLDL (back), front squat (upper back)
> Legs is kind of hard to cheat in elsewhere but considering how much the average bro hates legs...
> That said, using the examples above, with more intelligent exercise selection and focusing on compounds, a brosplit can actually be made viable with a 2 or even 3x/wk frequency. Especially if adding an extra day for lagging parts or deliberately sprinkling in some mishmash.


The changes you've suggested lead to a different kind of split that no rational observer would describe as "brosplit". So, no. It's much easier to say "Cindy sucked, I dumped her for Becky" vs "Cindy sucked, I redeemed her by changing Becky's name to Cindy"


----------



## MetatronTurtle

MrRippedZilla said:


> The changes you've suggested lead to a different kind of split that no rational observer would describe as "brosplit". So, no. It's much easier to say "Cindy sucked, I dumped her for Becky" vs "Cindy sucked, I redeemed her by changing Becky's name to Cindy"


Fair enough! Though Cindy does have the nicer name...


----------



## RiR0

MetatronTurtle said:


> Fair enough! Though Cindy does have the nicer name...


Not fair enough. What you described would literally still be a “bro split”
You didn’t turn it into a ppl or anything else.
You listed movement’s that have a cross over.


----------



## RiR0

MrRippedZilla said:


> The changes you've suggested lead to a different kind of split that no rational observer would describe as "brosplit". So, no. It's much easier to say "Cindy sucked, I dumped her for Becky" vs "Cindy sucked, I redeemed her by changing Becky's name to Cindy"


No rational observer would come to whatever retard conclusion you just did.

Using this lack of logic you might as well say it’s not a bro split if you use a bench press because it hits the triceps and front delts


----------



## MetatronTurtle

Maybe it was misread as saying I'm laying out a full routine instead of just giving exercise examples that could be plugged in to add frequency. The close grip pulldown on arm day is a bit of a stretch though, but now I'm wondering why I didn't put it in back for biceps. Either way, as long as compounds are the emphasis, things should shape out fine. It's when people focus on majority isolations that we run into issues but that's going to be problematic regardless of split.


----------



## RiR0

It’s funny that the “science” mod fails to understand there’s no difference in hypertrophy whether a muscle is hit 1,2or 3 times a week as long as effort and volume are equated for. 
There’s nothing wrong with a “bro” split as long as it’s programmed correctly, the effort is there and you’re adding weight or reps each week. 
Lots of big mother fuckers were built using it. 
The reason people don’t grow is lack of consistency, recovery, effort, and mechanical tension


----------



## MetatronTurtle

Personally I like higher frequency in the 1.5-2x/wk range, but that's mainly because it helps me from an intensity perspective. Would rather do half and half each time since I stay more focused and can hit it harder instead of completely beating one group down to a pulp. Also helps keep training motivation up for me since it gives you more opportunities to PR/progress on something.


----------



## shaneinmt

MrRippedZilla said:


> The Bro Split​
> Most of you who've followed my posts across the boards will be very familiar for my passionate hate for the bro split.
> The aim of this article is to show exactly why its such a poor way to train (ESPECIALLY on cycle) and then to suggest a few alternative splits that I have used successfully with clients & know for a fact produce very good results.
> 
> 
> *What is the bro split & why does it suck?*
> 
> The bro split usually involves training 5xweek with each session dedicated to 1 muscle group in particular. It was commonly seen in many magazines and, as a result, adopted by most bros (including experienced guys who should know better).
> Here is a basic example of what it may look like:
> 
> Mon - Chest
> Tues - Back
> Wed - Legs
> Thurs - Shoulders
> Fri - Arms
> Weekend - Off
> 
> The main reason why this split sucks, and why no one looking to optimize hypertrophy should adopt it, is because of it's low frequency nature. Without getting too into the specifics of skeletal muscle biology, here is a nice summary of points to illustrate what I mean:
> 
> *1)* The "anabolic" effect of a workout (enhanced protein synthesis, glycogen storage, etc) tends to last around *72hrs* and, regardless of the amount of training volume per session, 1 muscle group does *NOT* need 6 days to ****ing recover.
> These 2 points combined basically mean that you end up WASTING away 3 days every single week since their is no continued stimulus for muscle growth and no need for the enhanced recovery time.
> 
> 2) On cycle, your in a constant anabolic environment and recovery capacity is greatly enhanced.
> This is the reason why most guys still grow even with a shitty bro split on cycle - its the AAS doing the majority of the work, not them.
> If your recovery capacity is better, why do low frequency?
> If your capable of training harder, which means the stimulus to create growth would be stronger, why train less?
> Hopefully, you get the point.
> 
> 
> *Better split alternatives
> 
> DISCLAIMER:*
> The following splits were designed for bodybuilders where muscle growth for aesthetics is the main aim and not for PLers, OLers or other strength athletes where other considerations have to be taken into account. Yes, hypertrophy & strength do share many of the same general principles but the fact is, when we get down to the details, the training approach differs quite a bit.
> 
> When creating a split you can either focus on planes of movement or specific areas of the body and, IME, it doesn't makes much of a difference provided the training load is kept under control.
> Speaking of training load, don't expect much more then a few sentences about the variables (volume, intensity, progression models, etc) within these splits since I outlined my thought process on these in a detailed article elsewhere that is well worth reading:
> A-basic-guide-to-periodization
> 
> Now then, let's get down to business...
> 
> 
> Full body
> 
> Mon - Full body, 12-15 reps
> Tues
> Wed - Full body, 3-5 reps
> Thurs
> Fri - Full body, 8-10 reps
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> - This is an ideal split for beginners who have experienced a few months of full body, linear training within a fixed rep range but still produces better results in advanced lifters as well (yes, full body > bro split).
> - The incorporation of a high-low-mid undulating rep range is done specifically to max out 8RMs, which IME is the key training indicator for muscle growth (separated from strength, work capacity, etc).
> - The mixture of reps also allows us to take advantage of the different pathways for hypertrophy (tension, fatigue, stress, etc).
> 
> 
> Advanced, high frequency PPL
> 
> Mon - chest, triceps, front/side delts
> Tues - Back, biceps, side/rear delts
> Wed - Legs, core
> Thurs - chest, triceps, front/side delts
> Fri - Back, biceps, front/side delts
> Sat - legs/core
> Sun
> 
> - PPL is a well known split that hits everything 2x week *(OPTIMAL)*
> - Not suitable for those with busy lives who may not find the time, or energy, to hit everything hard 6x week.
> 
> 
> Intermediate upper/lower
> 
> Mon - upper
> Tues - lower
> Wed
> Thurs - upper
> Fri - lower
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> - Basic, convenient with good frequency & volume, can't go wrong here.
> - Ideal setup for multiple periodization approaches, for example...
> 
> 
> Intermediate-advanced, undulated upper/lower
> 
> Week 1
> Mon - upper, 12-15 reps
> Tues - lower, 12-15 reps
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps
> Fri - lower, 3-5 reps
> Sat
> Sun - optional accessory work (posing, addressing muscle imbalances, extra work for lagging muscle groups, etc)
> 
> Week 2
> Mon - upper, 8-10 reps
> Tues - lower, 8-10 reps
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps
> Fri - lower, 8-10 reps
> Sat
> Sun - optional accessory work (posing, addressing muscle imbalances, extra work for lagging muscle groups, etc)
> 
> Repeat week 1
> 
> - The idea here, again, is to* rotate volume in a high-low-mid cycle* with the primary focus being the 8-10 rep range.
> - We can make this even more specific by rotating volume per MOVEMENT rather than per session.
> For example for muscle groups that respond best to high reps like shoulders we could go with 8-10 & 3-5 rep work in week 1 with week 2 dedicated to 12-15 while, at the same time, going with 8-10 & 12-15 rep work in week 1 with week 2 dedicated to 3-5 rep work for faster twitch muscle groups like triceps. This is known as muscle fibre training, something I've written about elsewhere and will happily link to anyone interested.
> 
> 
> Advanced, high frequency & low volume
> Mon - upper, standard sets
> Tues - lower, standard sets
> Wed - upper, last sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
> Thurs - lower, last sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
> Fri - upper, all sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
> Sat - lower, all sets to failure/rest pause/drop set/other advanced technique
> Sun
> 
> - Low volume is key to making this split work; we're talking 1-2 movements per muscle group for 2-3 sets each.
> - The idea with the last sets in the mid-week session is to completely exhaust yourself with the advanced method of your choice. Personally, I prefer going to failure on the isolation stuff and rest pausing for the compounds.
> - The final sessions of the week are, basically, and advanced form of high intensity training (except with more volume, 1 all out set isn't going to cut it).
> 
> 
> Advanced, undulated, low frequency, upper/lower
> 
> Week 1
> Mon - upper, 12-15 reps last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Tues - lower, 12-15 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Fri - lower, 3-5 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> Week 2
> Mon - upper, 8-10 reps last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Tues - lower, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Fri - lower, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> Week 3
> Mon - upper, 12-15 reps all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Tues - lower, 12-15 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 3-5 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Fri - lower, 3-5 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> Week 4
> Mon - upper, 8-10 reps all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Tues - lower, 8-10 reps, all sets to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Wed
> Thurs - upper, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Fri - lower, 8-10 reps, last set to failure/rest pause/dropset/etc
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> Repeat week 1
> 
> - Notice how both the high & low rep sessions get a chance with the advanced techniques on the last & all sets depending on the week (1&3).
> - For the 3-5rep sessions, I don't recommend failure as the advanced technique of choice (especially when doing it for all sets). Rest pause or dropsets are better suited here.
> - Similar to the "Intermediate-advanced, undulated upper/lower" split, we can make all of this more specific by rotating the volume by movement rather than session. Again, PM me for more info since it can get pretty complicated from a tracking perspective.
> 
> 
> Upper/lower/full
> 
> Mon - upper
> Tues
> Wed - lower
> Thurs
> Fri - full body
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> - I like this routine when going on a severe cut (40%+ deficit),  or to keep things minimal during the last 1/3 or so of contest prep.
> - It's still superior to the bro split due to the higher frequency (everything hit 2x week) and convenience of it all.
> 
> 
> PPL/upper/lower hybrid
> 
> Mon - push
> Tues - pull
> Wed - legs
> Thurs - upper
> Fri - lower
> Sat
> Sun
> 
> - This is something an old training partner of mine used back in my competitive days and it stuck with me ever since.
> - When you compare a 5x week routine like this to the 5x week bro split...the difference in training quality & results is massive.
> 
> 
> *Summary*
> 
> You'll see a lot of upper/lower and PPL variations in these examples simply because most people are familiar with those set ups and, as a result, they are the easiest examples to use when demonstrating different setups. Provided your using at least 2-3 muscle groups per session, and hitting everything a minimum of 2x week, you can split it up as you wish.
> As you can see, with a little bit of creativity you can come up with a tonne of good split routines that completely trump the classic bro split. Hopefully this article gave you some bright ideas
> 
> 
> RippedZilla


I just found this thread and started doing the 6x per week ppl. The results have been incredible despite my bad diet. My first question is am i doing it right? On push day ill do 3 chest movements, 3 shoulders and 3 triceps. Eat movement is 3 sets unless i go to light to start then ill do a 4th. Set one my goal is 12 reps then increase weight and go as close to 12 as i can then increase weight and get much as i can which is usually 7-8. This is how i set up each day of ppl but i wonder if i am doing it wrong. 
Last question: i am starting school in august… 42 year old pharmacy student… so i wont have the time or energy to go that hard for 90 minutes every morning but still want to grow. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Achillesking

There is absolutely nothing wrong w a bro split at all. Try upping the intensity and volume and it's the best way to go IMO


----------



## CJ

shaneinmt said:


> I just found this thread and started doing the 6x per week ppl. The results have been incredible despite my bad diet..... 42 year old pharmacy student… so i wont have the time or energy to go that hard for 90 minutes every morning but still want to grow. Thanks in advance.



6 days is probably going to be too much. I'd cut it back to 4-5, and clean up that diet, and prioritize sleep/recovery.


----------



## shaneinmt

CJ said:


> 6 days is probably going to be too much. I'd cut it back to 4-5, and clean up that diet, and prioritize sleep/recovery.


What do you suggest i cut out or modify from the ppl to fit into 4 days?


----------



## RiR0

shaneinmt said:


> What do you suggest i cut out or modify from the ppl to fit into 4 days?


Do 2 days on 1 day off 2 days on 2 days off in an alternating fashion. 
PP off LP off off PL off PP etc


----------



## CJ

shaneinmt said:


> What do you suggest i cut out or modify from the ppl to fit into 4 days?


Nothing, just rotate through them.


----------



## Butch_C

We are currently running a Bro split. I have done PPL  or more like PLP but whatever. I liked them both and both work fine as long as the exercises are chosen thoughtfully and you try to progress on them week to week. I also stay more consistent going to the gym 6 days a week but 1 of those days (we call it fuck off Friday) we do things that we normally do not do or work on lagging body parts,  do core, possibly a mixture of all. I simply do not feel as good on days I do not hit the gym, almost lethargic. I also do run into times when I feel broken down and not recovering which then I have to pull way back for a week or plan a vacation. I am not trying to be stage ready either, I am merely trying to fill out loose skin and look like a jacked 49 year old man. I want to do DC training but my lifting partners are hesitant. The one guy has been lifting for 30 years and is no doubt the strongest guy (benches more than most deadlift 540#) I personally know, so I don't argue much as he knows his shit.  I guess what I am saying is the program should fit your goals and your lifestyle so do what works and what you can be consistent on.

Edit: Except triceps kickbacks, don't do those. lol


----------



## shaneinmt

CJ said:


> Nothing, just rotate through them.


Can you give me an example? And am i on the right path by doing each muscle group with 3 exercises and 3 sets each of 8-12?


----------



## FlyingPapaya

Why do I not see more upper lower 2x week splits?


----------



## CJ

shaneinmt said:


> Can you give me an example?


Put rest days wherever you want. Maybe you want Sundays and Thursdays off. Maybe Saturday and Wednesday. It doesn't really matter which 2 you pick. I'd personally opt for rest days after leg days, and try not to do Pull and Legs back to back. 


shaneinmt said:


> And am i on the right path by doing each muscle group with 3 exercises and 3 sets each of 8-12?


Working hard, meaning taking sets near failure, is what is important. Your recovery ability will dictate your number of sets. 6-20 reps are all fine, you'll find some exercises are better suited to higher, some to lower reps.


----------



## shaneinmt

CJ said:


> Put rest days wherever you want. Maybe you want Sundays and Thursdays off. Maybe Saturday and Wednesday. It doesn't really matter which 2 you pick. I'd personally opt for rest days after leg days, and try not to do Pull and Legs back to back.
> 
> Working hard, meaning taking sets near failure, is what is important. Your recovery ability will dictate your number of sets. 6-20 reps are all fine, you'll find some exercises are better suited to higher, some to lower reps.


Awesome. Thank you so much for your help.


----------



## CJ

FlyingPapaya said:


> Why do I not see more upper lower 2x week splits?


I don't even think you can give a name to what I do, I just put stuff where it fits. 🤣


----------



## ATLRigger

I finally added an arm day in my split.

I really don’t want to.
It hurts.  
It’s boring.
My arms are not my strong points. 

Blah blah blah excuses. 
Change it up to keep progressing.  

I did today.


----------



## Bro Bundy

ATLRigger said:


> I finally added an arm day in my split.
> 
> I really don’t want to.
> It hurts.
> It’s boring.
> My arms are not my strong points.
> 
> Blah blah blah excuses.
> Change it up to keep progressing.
> 
> I did today.


nothing wrong with doing that .I think its good to give them a day on their own


----------



## Achillesking

Bro Bundy said:


> nothing wrong with doing that .I think its good to give them a day on their own


I have and always will bro split. No one can change me because im fat n Greek


----------



## Bro Bundy

Achillesking said:


> I have and always will bro split. No one can change me because im fat n Greek


i heard the greeks love it in the ass


----------



## Achillesking

Bro Bundy said:


> i heard the greeks love it in the ass


Facts. But me. I don't bend over I like to have my legs pinned back so I can look my man in the eyes


----------



## Bro Bundy

Achillesking said:


> Facts. But me. I don't bend over I like to have my legs pinned back so I can look my man in the eyes


i was talking about the females u perverted bastard


----------



## Achillesking

Bro Bundy said:


> i was talking about the females u perverted bastard


Ohhhh....swwwrrrryyyyyy


----------



## Achillesking

Bro Bundy said:


> i was talking about the females u perverted bastard



But yes they do. However the prettiest sexiest Greek women hit 41 and magically turn into pumpkins so xnah of the boootaaay


----------



## Yano

Achillesking said:


> But yes they do. However the prettiest sexiest Greek women hit 41 and magically turn into pumpkins so xnah of the boootaaay


One of the hottest greek chicks that kept her figure til she was an ol lady was Nana Mouskouri.


----------



## Achillesking

Yano said:


> One of the hottest greek chicks that kept her figure til she was an ol lady was Nana Mouskouri.
> View attachment 30216


Probably has dirty Turkish witch blood in her


----------



## Yano

Achillesking said:


> Probably has dirty Turkish witch blood in her


It's possible her parents did work in a cheap theater in Crete ,, I've heard rumors 🧐


----------



## Achillesking

Yano said:


> It's possible her parents did work in a cheap theater in Crete ,, I've heard rumors 🧐


Woah woah woah relax. Im creten and I'm of gods people


----------



## Yano

Achillesking said:


> Woah woah woah relax. Im creten and I'm of gods people


I'm sure you are. An as fucked up as what I said is ,, its true lol her father was the projectionist and her mother was an usher/ticket gal. She grew up in Chania


----------



## Achillesking

Yano said:


> I'm sure you are. An as fucked up as what I said is ,, it's true lol her father was the projectionist and her mother was an usher/ticket gal. She grew up in Chania


Maybe he charmed her by cutting a hole in the bottom of the pocorn tub?


----------

