# SERM vs AI during cycle



## Capt'n Ron (Sep 16, 2012)

I think I am getting a handle on this stuff but always looking to learn. I have been looking over different cycles posted here and elsewhere. Some use a SERM like Clomid  for sides while others go for an AI like Arimidex.  I understand the basic diff between the two, but don't quite get why one might be preferred over the other.


----------



## PillarofBalance (Sep 16, 2012)

Serm's occupy a receptor but you'll still have estro floating around. An AI stops the conversion of test to estro.


----------



## coltmc4545 (Sep 16, 2012)

SERMS won't lower your estro. Nolva attaches to the estrogen receptor in the breast tissue and blocks it from attaching. AI's block or destroy the estro depending on what AI you use. I don't see the point in taking SERMS on cycle. You'll still have high estro and all the wonderful sides associated with it, bloat, moodiness, ect. Some people have started taking Clomid to help with testiccular atrophy because of the risk of desensitization of the leydeg cells from hcg. Again, I don't see the point because every study shown on hcg shows desensitization happens only in huge doses. I save the SERMs for PCT and use AI's on cycle. My .02.


----------



## Capt'n Ron (Sep 16, 2012)

Yep, got that. So both minimize Estro sides.  one by blocking receptors, the other by inhibiting aromatization of test to Estrogen.  I think I am missing something though when it comes to picking one over the other. Maybe because you want some estro floating around because you need some and too much AI might leave you with none?  Is that kind of what you are saying? Makes some sense the S in SERM is for selective.


----------



## Jake_House (Sep 16, 2012)

Could be for many reasons. One being people are uneducated on the topic. Like colt said it doesnt make much sense to run a serm. All that estrogen is floating around the body only to pop up as different sides. Serms in a way just mask the problem. Yes you do need some estrogen for proper body function and yes ai's can and will drop estro too low if not dosed properly. Really their is only 1 simple soultion...bloodwork. I cannot see why one would run a serm during cycle though. Pointless imo, aside from pct of course.


----------



## coltmc4545 (Sep 16, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> Yep, got that. So both minimize Estro sides.  one by blocking receptors, the other by inhibiting aromatization of test to Estrogen.  I think I am missing something though when it comes to picking one over the other. Maybe because you want some estro floating around because you need some and too much AI might leave you with none?  Is that kind of what you are saying? Makes some sense the S in SERM is for selective.



They don't both minimize estro sides. Nolva's just used to prevent gyno but if you keep your estro down you don't have to worry about gyno. Yes you can crash your estro with AI's, but like jake said, if you get bloodwork done you know how to dial in your dosage.


----------



## Capt'n Ron (Sep 16, 2012)

That is how I see it too. If you are using a steroid that can aromatize why let a ton of Est float around and only block it from selected receptors? Stop the conversion in the first place with a good AI. If you still develop a side like gyno throw the SERM at that and bump up the AI a bit.  I am still making sure I understand before putting it into practice. This place is great because the more knowledgeable are willing to help you avoid learning the hard way.


----------



## Capt'n Ron (Sep 16, 2012)

I had seen SERMs included in other cycles, during cycle, but the one that prompted me to ask was using Primo. After some more reading I see that it is not as susceptible to Aromatization as other compounds. In that case it would make more sense to me.


----------



## Jake_House (Sep 16, 2012)

And blood work is so cheap, and easily available (depending on location), its foolish not to get it done. Took me a while to realize, but it can be the difference of night and day in your cycle.


----------



## Jake_House (Sep 16, 2012)

Capt'n Ron said:


> if you still develop a side like gyno throw the SERM at that and bump up the AI a bit.


 
Well not quite. If youre on an AI and you still develop gyno, you A. need to bump up your dose a bit, or B. be sure your AI is legit and not underdosed or completely bunk. Again, blood work is the only sure fire thing. But I wouldnt throw a serm in the mix...for any reason.


----------



## Lulu66 (Sep 16, 2012)

I wouldnt use the serm during cycle unless totally necesary.


----------



## Jada (Sep 16, 2012)

I really don't c y people would use a serm on cycle.


----------



## Get Some (Sep 17, 2012)

SERM - can be effective if you start using it before your cycle starts. It will occupy the receptor slots that estro will try to "mate" with and create aromatase. However, as your cycle progresses, androgens will fill up all the available ligands so your body has to upregulate the receptor supply. If the E2 beats the nolva to the spot, your estro will still rise

AI - Can both occupy a spot where E2 (estradiol) and rip it from that spot. 

A SERM is the asshole that steals your seat.... an AI is a badass motherfucker who will walk up and remove you from your seat if you don't comply, lol.

The good news about AI's is that you can start low and if you start to experience gyno symptoms you can up the dose. I ALWAYS keep letro on hand because in my experience nothing is better at killing gyno symptoms quicker. IN fact, they don't even readily use letrozole for breast cancer treatments anymore because it increases base testosterone levels so high and brings estrogen to such minimal levels. Nowadays you will see both arimidex and nolva used to treat breast cancer because it's easier to keep levels in a manageable range. But remember, nolvadex works differently for females, estro levels start high (can be above 200 for E2) and test levels are low so aromatization is not a factor. But if you're wondering why females are so bipolar.... do a little google research on progesterone


----------



## PillarofBalance (Sep 17, 2012)

I've been on 25mg clomid since late June.  It helped to improve my mood while I was on monster doses of test and contributed to some well being. I was using caber but no AI. I made out great with that combo.


----------



## Get Some (Sep 17, 2012)

PillarofBalance said:


> I've been on 25mg clomid since late June.  It helped to improve my mood while I was on monster doses of test and contributed to some well being. I was using caber but no AI. I made out great with that combo.



Clomid is a bit different as a SERM because it acts directly on the hypothalamus.... which is the reason you saw your mood improve

For everyone that wants to run an oral only cycle... I would bet my life savings they would see more gains from running a clomid/letro combo than from ANY dose of anavar.... I'll post about this in detail when I have more time


----------



## 63Vette (Sep 17, 2012)

coltmc4545 said:


> SERMS won't lower your estro. Nolva attaches to the estrogen receptor in the breast tissue and blocks it from attaching. AI's block or destroy the estro depending on what AI you use. I don't see the point in taking SERMS on cycle. You'll still have high estro and all the wonderful sides associated with it, bloat, moodiness, ect. Some people have started taking Clomid to help with testiccular atrophy because of the risk of desensitization of the leydeg cells from hcg. Again, I don't see the point because every study shown on hcg shows desensitization happens only in huge doses. I save the SERMs for PCT and use AI's on cycle. My .02.



Agree 100%, this is dead on. 
The only thing I will add is I suggest Aromisine, 12.5mg/eod..... and yes, I know what the fucking half life is.


----------



## coltmc4545 (Sep 17, 2012)

63Vette said:


> ... and yes, I know what the fucking half life is.



Well in that case I suggest 6.25-12.5mg ED LMAO


----------

