# Maximum calorie deficit



## PillarofBalance (Nov 11, 2018)

So we all know by now that a 500 Cal deficit gets you one pound per week of weight loss or thereabout...

What's the max deficit someone can run without getting into trouble? 

My personal experience with this was cutting from 260 to below 242. I got a bit behind schedule as this was for a meet. So I dropped 4 of my days to 1700 calories. Maintenance would have been close to 2800ish.

It was absolutely brutal, but God damn did that weight come off fast as hell. 

It brought up a problem I run into from time to time though. Hypoglycemia. I would get hot and sweaty, start shaking and get so lethargic I can barely move. Which would cause me to start shoveling food down my throat in a panic. So long term this wasn't a solution of course.


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## Elivo (Nov 11, 2018)

I don’t remember what my tde is but fitness pal has me at 1600 and some calories a week with a 2 per week loss goal. That’s at 225.


never had an issue with hypoglycemia but I’m guessing I also have a bit more bf reserve to take from than you would have


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## snake (Nov 11, 2018)

I'm glad to say that I have no personal experience with this.


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## stanley (Nov 11, 2018)

well I let u know for iam trying to get by, atm ,buy slashing my cal .
iam on 1600 trying to get bf down quick for photo shoot
only week 2
still not felt week or anything dif .but I do feel and look harder all round, 
its going to be hard for me to even know what affect it has ,for iam about to start a routine that our snake drew up for me 
so I knew I will get to my goal .

iam always a bit scared thinking am I droping cals to much .


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 11, 2018)

Define "trouble". 

I deal with percentages because the whole "500 cal" stuff is practically meaningless to me. 
PSMF had me at a 60% deficit. Add in 10% for cardio. Plus 10-30% for whatever drug protocol I'm running. As a result, I haven't cut for longer than 6 weeks in years. No need. 
Do I feel like shit? Sure, but it allows me to reach my goal quicker so...worth it. Goal vs process orientated and all that jazz.


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## Spongy (Nov 11, 2018)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Define "trouble".
> 
> I deal with percentages because the whole "500 cal" stuff is practically meaningless to me.
> PSMF had me at a 60% deficit. Add in 10% for cardio. Plus 10-30% for whatever drug protocol I'm running. As a result, I haven't cut for longer than 6 weeks in years. No need.
> Do I feel like shit? Sure, but it allows me to reach my goal quicker so...worth it. Goal vs process orientated and all that jazz.



Just for clarification, your caloric intake was a 60% deficit of your BMR, and then you had cardio and ancillaries on top of that?  

Did you have any noticeable problems after your cut or was the cut so brief (6 weeks or less) that you didnt really have any issues?


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## Viduus (Nov 11, 2018)

My rule of thumb was to target a 1000 Cal deficit. 

That allowed me to lift properly. Slightly less of a deficit on serious leg days. I could do this indefinitely.

When doing cardio more then 3x30min per week I started cutting it close. Two months max with cardio. Weekly moderate refeeds were necessary.

EC on top of all that wrecked me after three days. I think I went backwards with progress at that point. I’d only do that again if I couldn’t train.


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 11, 2018)

Spongy said:


> Just for clarification, your caloric intake was a 60% deficit of your BMR, and then you had cardio and ancillaries on top of that?
> 
> Did you have any noticeable problems after your cut or was the cut so brief (6 weeks or less) that you didnt really have any issues?


60% of my TDEE with cardio & ancillaries on top of that, yes.

As a natural, my problems were typical. Hormones down (test due primarily to higher SHBG, thyroid, etc), libido down, etc - all the stuff related to "feeling like shit". All of this was fixed after my cut with calories coming back up. At least in terms of being the new normal for my lower weight. Full recovery is impossible unless you regain all of the lost weight when dealing with folks going from normal > super lean. 
On TRT, most of my problems were reduced for obvious reasons. Even more so when I added HCG into the mix this year. 

The important point I want to emphasize here is that, compared to a reduced deficit for a longer period of time,  the side effects only differed in terms of timeframe. Not the actual effect size. I've known this for years due to self & client experimentation. Me and Doc used to talk about it alot.


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## jennerrator (Nov 11, 2018)

I had no issues what so ever when we made my diet to drop the 16 lbs...did not effect my life or training one bit!!


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## PillarofBalance (Nov 11, 2018)

MrRippedZilla said:


> Define "trouble".
> 
> I deal with percentages because the whole "500 cal" stuff is practically meaningless to me.
> PSMF had me at a 60% deficit. Add in 10% for cardio. Plus 10-30% for whatever drug protocol I'm running. As a result, I haven't cut for longer than 6 weeks in years. No need.
> Do I feel like shit? Sure, but it allows me to reach my goal quicker so...worth it. Goal vs process orientated and all that jazz.



I was hoping you would ask because honestly I am not sure what the consequences of a huge deficit might be. For me it was going hypo once or twice per day. Of course that's not because of the deficit per se, but because I needed more carb intake. 

Other thoughts - rapid muscle loss, loss or strength, thyroid problems maybe.


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## Viduus (Nov 11, 2018)

PillarofBalance said:


> Other thoughts - rapid muscle loss, loss or strength, thyroid problems maybe.



I noticed it most with slow wound healing. The rest got lost in the grind even though I was looking for signs of poor recovery. It’s amazing what people naturally adapt to.


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## NbleSavage (Nov 11, 2018)

MrRippedZilla said:


> 60% of my TDEE with cardio & ancillaries on top of that, yes.
> 
> As a natural, my problems were typical. Hormones down (test due primarily to higher SHBG, thyroid, etc), libido down, etc - all the stuff related to "feeling like shit". All of this was fixed after my cut with calories coming back up. At least in terms of being the new normal for my lower weight. Full recovery is impossible unless you regain all of the lost weight when dealing with folks going from normal > super lean.
> On TRT, most of my problems were reduced for obvious reasons. Even more so when I added HCG into the mix this year.
> ...



If I'm following ye, I'm reading 'Cut harder, Cut shorter' - at least in yer case. Check me if I've got that sorted.

 Was this prep for a competition? How often do ye cut this way? How durable are the results? I'm fascinated at the different approaches folks find success with. Great share, 'zilla.


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## ToolSteel (Nov 11, 2018)

I randomly had a bad hypo crash a couple weeks ago. Woke up and had coffee and could barely walk, bs was 66. Chugged some OJ and was fine in a few minutes. 

For me this seems to only happen when cutting on tren. And it’s seemingly random, not something I can recreate.


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 11, 2018)

PillarofBalance said:


> I was hoping you would ask because honestly I am not sure what the consequences of a huge deficit might be. For me it was going hypo once or twice per day. Of course that's not because of the deficit per se, but because I needed more carb intake.
> 
> Other thoughts - rapid muscle loss, loss of strength, thyroid problems maybe.


The only time I ever went hypo was in my last year of college back in 08. I remember it vividly but to cut a long story short...
3-4 weeks into a keto diet, upper/lower split 4x week with 2 days of intense endurance training for a 5km charity event. Prewo before one of my endurance sessions. My body made it very clear that if I want to keep pushing this endurance thing then I need to up the carbs or it will kick my ass. I tapped out within minutes of the session as the sides ramped up. 
The lesson: makes sure your diet & training are compatible with each other. 

Muscle loss, no difference provided the lesson above is adhered to. 
Strength loss, sure, but I'd argue that most of this can be circumvented with good programming. I mean, I've had clients set PRs 2 weeks before a show. That kind of goes against the mantra of "dieting = inevitable strength loss". Huge neural component involved. Bench suffers due to leverage changes mostly. Etc. You're the PL guy - what's your view?
Hormones do crash in general, yes. Same thing happens on a slow deficit. The difference is timeframe - quicker on a high deficit. Also quicker to recover because, well, your cut is done quicker too. Non-issue for the enhanced of course. 



NbleSavage said:


> If I'm following ye, I'm reading 'Cut harder, Cut shorter' - at least in yer case. Check me if I've got that sorted.
> 
> Was this prep for a competition? How often do ye cut this way? How durable are the results? I'm fascinated at the different approaches folks find success with. Great share, 'zilla.


For me, yes. I absolutely would not recommend that to everyone because of the obvious adherence issues that might come up. The higher the deficit, the stronger the urge to binge for most. 

Not prep, just my usual summertime cut 

Durability is a concern because, in general, the quicker you lose it the quicker it should come back on. Mostly due to insufficient time allocated to building the right habits. Then again, it's not like the slow & steady approach is working well with the general population either - they gain it all back too, just slower. Changing habits is hard. The approach should be tailored to the individual. 
Building habits is not something that applies to me at this stage of the game. Same goes for most experienced members here. I find the idea of being able to cut in 6 weeks or less liberating. It makes me not care at all about the pounds I usually accumulate during the year.


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## PillarofBalance (Nov 11, 2018)

MrRippedZilla said:


> The only time I ever went hypo was in my last year of college back in 08. I remember it vividly but to cut a long story short...
> 3-4 weeks into a keto diet, upper/lower split 4x week with 2 days of intense endurance training for a 5km charity event. Prewo before one of my endurance sessions. My body made it very clear that if I want to keep pushing this endurance thing then I need to up the carbs or it will kick my ass. I tapped out within minutes of the session as the sides ramped up.
> The lesson: makes sure your diet & training are compatible with each other.
> 
> ...



For an intermediate and above competitor bench is usually the only thing to suffer, but often times losing weight gets you better thoracic extension. So not always. Strength loss doesn't have to happen. If the training and diet match up, issues are minimal.

It's usually just energy levels impacted, so typically volume gets cut. Less volume > less fatigue > bump in 1rm would be expected regardless of nutrition. But long term the lower volume may slow your growth. 

Yeah I guess after that, a hard short cut does seem to make more sense. I would be able to come out of deficit Midway thru prep just in time for an over-reach block, before peaking. 

Might have to try that instead of staying in a deficit for 12 weeks.


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## Seeker (Nov 11, 2018)

everyone is sharing personal experiences with dieting and calorie deficits which is always interesting. but how low of a deficit a person can go before getting into trouble I suppose  can also vary on the individual. Depending on one's age,  activity level, even gender.  dieting down to low single digit bf levels would definitely require walking a dangerous line that can only be sustained for a very short period of time that come with it's set of issues.. I dont have any recent  personal experience to share for the exception of when my weight climbed to 270lbs a few years ago. but I didn't have to go to any extreme dieting to drop back down. I was so high into a surplus that cutting off all those excess calories was easy and welcomed.


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## Seeker (Nov 11, 2018)

Shit, Zilla, dropping 60% of TDEE require some serious discipline and a mind Fuk. Yeah I can imagine you feeling like shit during.  That's dropping 1600 cals for me. Lol. Obviously you have your dates and timeframes set for when you start but are you literally waking up one day and boom! 60% drop? Lol what's the macro break down? if you don't mind.


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## NbleSavage (Nov 11, 2018)

Seeker said:


> Shit, Zilla, dropping 60% of TDEE require some serious discipline and a mind Fuk. Yeah I can imagine you feeling like shit during.  That's dropping 1600 cals for me. Lol. Obviously you have your dates and timeframes set for when you start but are you literally waking up one day and boom! 60% drop? Lol what's the macro break down? if you don't mind.



Think he meant he was eating at 60% of his TDEE, so 40% restriction. Still a massive cut.


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## Spongy (Nov 11, 2018)

Seeker said:


> Shit, Zilla, dropping 60% of TDEE require some serious discipline and a mind Fuk. Yeah I can imagine you feeling like shit during.  That's dropping 1600 cals for me. Lol. Obviously you have your dates and timeframes set for when you start but are you literally waking up one day and boom! 60% drop? Lol what's the macro break down? if you don't mind.



Check out protein sparing modified fast (psmf)


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## Seeker (Nov 11, 2018)

Spongy said:


> Check out protein sparing modified fast (psmf)



it's as intense as it reads. I already assumed protein is over 1gram.  Noble, on his 1st post he does say 60% deficit. let's see what  he meant.


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## MrRippedZilla (Nov 11, 2018)

PillarofBalance said:


> For an intermediate and above competitor bench is usually the only thing to suffer, but often times losing weight gets you better thoracic extension. So not always. *Strength loss doesn't have to happen. If the training and diet match up, issues are minimal.*
> 
> It's usually just energy levels impacted, so typically volume gets cut. Less volume > less fatigue > bump in 1rm would be expected regardless of nutrition. But long term the lower volume may slow your growth.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with the bold. Good point about improved thoracic extension. 

I know we've discussed the importance of volume when cutting before and it's one of those "depends on who you ask" subjects that is commonly debated. As an enhanced lifter, I see benefits for both sides.
A smaller deficit allows us to maintain higher volume, which might lead to growth even when cutting depending on other variables (drug protocol, experience level, etc). 
A larger deficit pretty much eliminates the possibility of growth but, since the cut is over much sooner, it does allow us to get back to optimal growth conditions (re more food) sooner too. I still think this is the better option when focusing on the long term. Time efficiency and stuff. But both have positives & negatives so meh...individual preference.  



Seeker said:


> Shit, Zilla, dropping 60% of TDEE require some serious discipline and a mind Fuk. Yeah I can imagine you feeling like shit during.  That's dropping 1600 cals for me. Lol. Obviously you have your dates and timeframes set for when you start but are you literally waking up one day and boom! 60% drop? Lol what's the macro break down? if you don't mind.


My modified PSMF is essentially lean protein + green veggies while allowing myself to have salmon 1x week and fruit prewo if I really need it, which I won't when starting. I don't have an exact macro breakdown but it's basically all protein with minimal carbs & fats. I'll add that most of the time I'll allow myself 2 back-to-back carb load E10D with cals just over maintenance, protein the same, fats go up a bit but never over 50g, and the rest is carbs. I say "most of the time" because if I'm on DNP, highly likely, the I skip carb loads. Pointless endeavour. 

I work my way towards that ^^^ rather than crashing everything immediately lol.
If I'm coming off a bulk I'll settle into a 2 week maintenance phase with protein already being bumped up to PSMF levels. Then I'll spend a few days transitioning to leaner cuts of protein, eliminating most fat sources, and all carbs, except veggies, outside of pre/post wo. Then I'll sacrifice those too. I'm fully transitioned in 5-6 days tops. 

This sounds like I put a lot of thought into it but I really don't these days. I'm very robotic about the whole thing, which helps with adherence. I fully admit that it takes a special kind of crazy to do this.

Edit for Noble: 60% deficit is correct.


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## jennerrator (Nov 12, 2018)

snake said:


> I'm glad to say that I have no personal experience with this.



I guess me neither lol...It’s definitely interesting but I could never be that intense about it.


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## silvereyes87 (Nov 12, 2018)

When i dropped from 250 to 195 recently nost of it i was in a 1000 cal deficit. Protein was always high 
But so was test and tren or mpp mast superdrol whatevs.  My strength didnt take a serious dive till i hit 12% bf. Mind you i was traing 6 days a week for atleast 6 months and was run down af


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## Viduus (Nov 12, 2018)

MrRippedZilla said:


> My modified PSMF is essentially lean protein + green veggies while allowing myself to have salmon 1x week and fruit prewo if I really need it, which I won't when starting. I don't have an exact macro breakdown but it's basically all protein with minimal carbs & fats. I'll add that most of the time I'll allow myself 2 back-to-back carb load E10D with cals just over maintenance, protein the same, fats go up a bit but never over 50g, and the rest is carbs.



This is almost exactly where I ended up. Simple sushi was part of my routine


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