Training with bands, bad?

Butch_C

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I do not understand this video. Some of the strongest MF'ers out there incorporated bands in their training. Is he saying it is only bad for hypertrophy training or training in general?
 

Test_subject

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Bands are an amazing training tool. IMO they’re more useful for strength, but they have their place in a hypertrophy program. John Meadows uses them often in his programming.

Mike is an educated guy, but I’m not the hugest fan of his methods.
 

TODAY

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Yes, bands do alter the force curve of certain movements in a way that (probably) produces a level of fatigue that is not commensurate with hypertrophic stimulus.

No, that does not mean that they are useless in every context.

Israetel has an unfortunate tendency to present guesses and suppositions as fact. He also often makes totalizing statements that ignore nuance and variability.
 

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Yes, bands do alter the force curve of certain movements in a way that (probably) produces a level of fatigue that is not commensurate with hypertrophic stimulus.

No, that does not mean that they are useless in every context.

Israetel has an unfortunate tendency to present guesses and suppositions as fact. He also often makes totalizing statements that ignore nuance and variability.
Banded squats are a good example of a movement that’s good for hypertrophy. The top of the squat is significantly easier than the bottom and the muscles lose tension. If you band them from the floor, the tension remains more consistent.

Squats with chains operate on a similar principle.
 
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IMO they’re more useful for strength
Agreed. I don't train for hypertrophy, I train for strength, and bands really help with this. For me, the most notable impact has been on my squat numbers. Since the bands overload the top of the movement, it helps strengthen me mentally to handle heavier weights on my back, especially during the walkout portion.
 

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Banded squats are a good example of a movement that’s good for hypertrophy. The top of the squat is significantly easier than the bottom and the muscles lose tension. If you band them from the floor, the tension remains more consistent.

Squats with chains operate on a similar principle.
Agreed.

Plus, they're fun as hell.
 

CJ

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Banded squats are a good example of a movement that’s good for hypertrophy. The top of the squat is significantly easier than the bottom and the muscles lose tension. If you band them from the floor, the tension remains more consistent.

Squats with chains operate on a similar principle.
Thought experiment.... But wouldn't you also add a ton of extra weight/stress to your spine by squatting with bands/chains? Would simply adding leg extensions in addition to regular squats produce the same desired effect, without the extra spinal loading, since leg extensions are hardest at the end range of motion? 🤔

I'm speaking in terms of hypertrophy training. Less fatigue buildup also, so it won't affect other training so you get better workouts, like on Back Day perhaps?
 

TODAY

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Thought experiment.... But wouldn't you also add a ton of extra weight/stress to your spine by squatting with bands/chains? Would simply adding leg extensions in addition to regular squats produce the same desired effect, without the extra spinal loading, since leg extensions are hardest at the end range of motion? 🤔

I'm speaking in terms of hypertrophy training.
Perhaps, but leg extensions are boring as hell and they hurt my old man knees.
 

CJ

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Perhaps, but leg extensions are boring as hell and they hurt my old man knees.
That's definitely a reason not to do them, but maybe something like Banded Benchpress vs Regular Benchpress and Pec Deck perhaps? Same idea.
 

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Thought experiment.... But wouldn't you also add a ton of extra weight/stress to your spine by squatting with bands/chains? Would simply adding leg extensions in addition to regular squats produce the same desired effect, without the extra spinal loading, since leg extensions are hardest at the end range of motion? 🤔

I'm speaking in terms of hypertrophy training.
That’s definitely a way to do it. I’m not saying that doing banded squats is THE way to do it. But Mike is making it seem like bands are completely useless, which is a very narrow and IMO incorrect way to look at it. Leg extensions can also be bad for your knees. There’s always a trade-off.

If you’re trying to grow your legs and build your squat at the same time, banded squats are great.

I mean, if pure quad hypertrophy is your goal, a combination of front squats/hack/leg press is better than squats anyhow.
 

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That’s definitely a way to do it. I’m not saying that doing banded squats is THE way to do it. But Mike is making it seem like bands are completely useless, which is a very narrow and IMO incorrect way to look at it. Leg extensions can also be bad for your knees. There’s always a trade-off.

If you’re trying to grow your legs and build your squat at the same time, banded squats are great.

I mean, if pure quad hypertrophy is your goal, a combination of front squats/hack/leg press is better than squats anyhow.
How he said something like... The extra stress at the top from the bands might take away extra reps, which lessens the amount of work in the ideal range for that exercise.... Got me thinking.

Like hack squats are great for getting deep. But if you band them, you'll perform less reps because it's more work. Does that take away from the total benefit of the exercise then? 🤔

No idea if it's right or wrong, but it has me thinking.
 

Yano

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Thought experiment.... But wouldn't you also add a ton of extra weight/stress to your spine by squatting with bands/chains? Would simply adding leg extensions in addition to regular squats produce the same desired effect, without the extra spinal loading, since leg extensions are hardest at the end range of motion? 🤔

I'm speaking in terms of hypertrophy training. Less fatigue buildup also, so it won't affect other training so you get better workouts, like on Back Day perhaps?
I squat with bands or chains , Ive even used both. It sure does work you differently. Bands I didnt notice any odd stress as long as the bands were fixed in line with the bar path ya know straight up n down.
The chains not only add resistance out of the hole but it gives you some sway and rock as well if you hang em a bit short which really forces you to brace your core and be much more aware of your stability. I love em
I've never really used many of the fancy gym machines so I can't compare the feeling twixt em.
 

silentlemon1011

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Thought experiment.... But wouldn't you also add a ton of extra weight/stress to your spine by squatting with bands/chains? Would simply adding leg extensions in addition to regular squats produce the same desired effect, without the extra spinal loading, since leg extensions are hardest at the end range of motion? 🤔

I'm speaking in terms of hypertrophy training. Less fatigue buildup also, so it won't affect other training so you get better workouts, like on Back Day perhaps?

For hypertrophy sure
I can't really speak too much on that since im pretty amateur hour and dont study it much.

I am however a big fan of overloading for strength and pushing CNS to the limit.

I personally prefer equipment as opposed to bands and chains
IE, ill overload squat to past my 1RM, then use knee wraps
Or a Slingshot for bench etc etc.
 

Test_subject

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How he said something like... The extra stress at the top from the bands might take away extra reps, which lessens the amount of work in the ideal range for that exercise.... Got me thinking.

Like hack squats are great for getting deep. But if you band them, you'll perform less reps because it's more work. Does that take away from the total benefit of the exercise then? 🤔

No idea if it's right or wrong, but it has me thinking.
I’d like to see some overall numbers and data. It’s basically a question of “does overloading the top of the movement and increasing relative intensity while lowering overall volume outperform doing higher volume at a relatively lower intensity on part of the movement”?

Maybe?

I just don’t like how absolute he’s being.
 

TODAY

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I’d like to see some overall numbers and data. It’s basically a question of “does overloading the top of the movement and increasing relative intensity while lowering overall volume outperform doing higher volume at a relatively lower intensity on part of the movement”?

Maybe?

I just don’t like how absolute he’s being.
That's a tough question to answer, given the current state of the data.

I think we'd have to extrapolate from the existing body of research on volume vs. intensity for hypertrophy.

If, for example, the banded movement leads to more progressive overload, the answer might be relatively simple.
 

silentlemon1011

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I’d like to see some overall numbers and data. It’s basically a question of “does overloading the top of the movement and increasing relative intensity while lowering overall volume outperform doing higher volume at a relatively lower intensity on part of the movement”?

Maybe?

Purely gut.
But ill say yes
It does lower intensity.

The reason i say this is because of my belief of the full STRETCH at the bottom of the ROM
For example, if you look at somethinf like ATG squats
ATG squats will definitively increase your parallel comp squats in a pretty linear fashion.

Whereas if youre not hitting depth, you are not going to see the same linear progression

I actually ATG most of the time and only parallel for comp squats and gauging overall conp strength ..Alan Thrall style, (Who breaks the numbers down very coherently.

So for me,
Ill always believe kn full ROM for standard training and on occasion overloading problem areas, like the pocket on bench or the pocket on squats... deficit DL etc
 

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If, for example, the banded movement leads to more progressive overload, the answer might be relatively simple.
That’s basically what it comes down to.

As a pure out-of-my-ass hunch, I’d say that yes, it would. If you become stronger through the whole movement you can move more weight. If you move more weight you build more muscle.

Whether it results in a decrease in reps from 8 to say 6 or whatever wouldn’t matter so much, I’d think.
 

TomJ

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i watched this video earlier this week,

from what i remember his arguement was not that they were uselss, but that the fatigue they gave was often rightfully at the easier part of the lift, but also in the range of motion that thas the added tension doesnt contribute as much for hypertrophy.

his argument was that banded work, in hypertrophy training, generally provides a disproportionate amount of fatigue to hypertrophy in a lot of cases, which makes total sense to me.

i see bands as being useful for targeting particularly weak ranges of motion in a lift if the weakness in that range is limiting your straight sets. more strength = more weight moved = more hypertrophy.
i agree with what others haev said, banded work is more strength focused than hypertrophy focused, in my opinion
 

TODAY

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That’s basically what it comes down to.

As a pure out-of-my-ass hunch, I’d say that yes, it would. If you become stronger through the whole movement you can move more weight. If you move more weight you build more muscle.

Whether it results in a decrease in reps from 8 to say 6 or whatever wouldn’t matter so much, I’d think.
I tend to agree.
 

Test_subject

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I will say that I feel like banded work is more suited to a pure SBD program or a powerbuilding style of training.

If I were to write a program for someone who just wanted to get bigger, I wouldn’t have anything like banded squats or DLs in the program. Hell, I don’t even program back squats or DLs in my own training at all.

I get what Mike is saying, but he’s saying it like it’s a fact when it’s far from that.
 

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