Doc moving me from clomid to TRT…. How to control estrogen?

[69nites]

Sex Hormone Effects on Body Fluid Regulation

In young women, estradiol and progesterone primarily control reproduction, but they also affect fluid regulation. Estradiol lowers the operating point for osmoregulation of arginine vasopressin and thirst and increases plasma volume. Although total body ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just to rebut the ridiculous statement that is exclusively sodium responsible for estrogen induced water retention that's getting regurgitated recently.

For the original question, IMO the best way to manage estrogen on trt is a combination of dose and dosing frequency. If you need another drug to manage your estrogen your dose is either too high, too infrequent, or both.

 

[TomJ]

If you need another drug to manage your estrogen your dose is either too high, too infrequent, or both.

this is not strictly true. There are many individuals, myself included, that still need an AI on TRT doses

 

[69nites]

this is not strictly true. There are many individuals, myself included, that still need an AI on TRT doses

There's a solution to that, lower your dose.

 

[TomJ]

Just to rebut the ridiculous statement that is exclusively sodium responsible for estrogen induced water retention

Estrogen causes your body to be more sensitive to sodium. It’s sodium that ultimately causes all those issues

he didnt say exclusively.



From the study you cited

We suspect that the small but consistently present water retention associated with estradiol administration may be a function of greater sodium retention rather than AVP-induced increases in free water retention. For the most part, our studies have shown that increases in sodium retention are independent of RAAS stimulation or ANP

we interpret the estrogen-associated lowering of the osmotic threshold for AVP release as a lowering of the osmoregulatory set point rather than a change in the fluid regulation because the greater P[AVP] did not seem to contribute significantly to fluid retention. Although there were small increases in overall fluid retention during estradiol administration, renal free water clearance was unaffected by estrogen administration. This lack of effect on renal free water clearance suggested to us that estrogens may alter renal sensitivity to AVP or even interfere with AVP action in the kidney

Also this is a study on oral contraceptives in females, which are processed through the kidneys adding a variable to the equations independent of raised serum levels due to aromatization.

 

[TomJ]

There's a solution to that, lower your dose.

my dose is appropriate, keeping me in the 600-700 range.
I get bloodwork every 2 months

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Sex Hormone Effects on Body Fluid Regulation

In young women, estradiol and progesterone primarily control reproduction, but they also affect fluid regulation. Estradiol lowers the operating point for osmoregulation of arginine vasopressin and thirst and increases plasma volume. Although total body ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just to rebut the ridiculous statement that is exclusively sodium responsible for estrogen induced water retention that's getting regurgitated recently.

For the original question, IMO the best way to manage estrogen on trt is a combination of dose and dosing frequency. If you need another drug to manage your estrogen your dose is either too high, too infrequent, or both.

Well I am absolutely interested in your rebuttal. You just sent a study. An article where they studied the effects of elevated estrogen AND progesterone on WOMAN. I'd like to see how you link elevated estrogen and progesterone (which isn't the case for TRT patients) and men as that is the topic that the OP is curious about.

BTW, at least read the second to last sentence in the introduction. Here it is quoted: "Despite these effects, however, water and sodium regulation seem only minimally effected by estradiol or progesterone (or both) administration, suggesting that in young and healthy women, these hormones alter the homeostatic set point around which these systems are regulated rather than induce excess fluid or sodium retention or loss."

And like @TomJ pointed out, I didn't use the word "exclusive". Here's my direct quote: "Estrogen causes your body to be more sensitive to sodium. It’s sodium that ultimately causes all those issues." Which comparing to the article you provided, I'm not sure where I stated anything incorrectly? The hormones reset the homeostatic set point so your body is more sensitive to sodium.

Or am I just being ridiculous?

 

[HeavyW8]

@HeavyW8

View attachment 38383

“pErHaPs yOu mEaN tO sAy tHaT mOrE oFtEn tHaN nOt iTs tHe sOdIuM tHaT iS tHe cUlPrIt….”

Nah. What makes you think that?

Relax pal. You were wrong and misleading in two statements. Both the one that you highlighted and the other where you state, "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."

I am not attacking you personally and your juvenile overreaction is embarrassing. Perhaps you need to up your AI.

Its ok if you are wrong. My issue is with your statements, particularly the second quoted statement which is a straight lie.

I don't want some poor schmuck or the OP to see those two statements and think oh, I'll be just fine if I cut out sodium only to find out the hard way that you are dead wrong and all because they saw some random guy on a steroid forum stating something like its absolute truth and they believed it.

You have a nice day sir.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Relax pal. You were wrong and misleading in two statements. Both the one that you highlighted and the other where you state, "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."

I am not attacking you personally and your juvenile overreaction is embarrassing. Perhaps you need to up your AI.

Its ok if you are wrong. My issue is with your statements, particularly the second quoted statement which is a straight lie.

I don't want some poor schmuck or the OP to see those two statements and think oh, I'll be just fine if I cut out sodium only to find out the hard way that you are dead wrong and all because they saw some random guy on a steroid forum stating something like its absolute truth and they believed it.

You have a nice day sir.

You missed the part in my first post where I told the OP to take his AI.

Welcome back to the forum too, btw. We missed you.

 

[HeavyW8]

You missed the part in my first post where I told the OP to take his AI.

Welcome back to the forum too, btw. We missed you.

Again, its the misleading and false statements I have issue with. Grow up.

Yea no shit. Anyone with half a brain can figure that the fuck out.

Who acts like this. You were wrong. Move on.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Relax pal. You were wrong and misleading in two statements. Both the one that you highlighted and the other where you state, "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."

I am not attacking you personally and your juvenile overreaction is embarrassing. Perhaps you need to up your AI.

Its ok if you are wrong. My issue is with your statements, particularly the second quoted statement which is a straight lie.

I don't want some poor schmuck or the OP to see those two statements and think oh, I'll be just fine if I cut out sodium only to find out the hard way that you are dead wrong and all because they saw some random guy on a steroid forum stating something like its absolute truth and they believed it.

You have a nice day sir.

I’ll wait for you to prove me wrong since you’re the “I don’t believe in BroScience” guy. I’m sure you have a few studies that you could post and POINT OUT SPECIFICALLY the parts that support your points.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Again, its the misleading and false statements I have issue with. Grow up.

Who acts like this. You were wrong. Move on.

grow up?

Put me on ignore if you don’t want to read what I write. I’m not doing shit for some “new guy” on the internet. I’m just fine the way I am.

 

[HeavyW8]

I’ll wait for you to prove me wrong since you’re the “I don’t believe in BroScience” guy. I’m sure you have a few studies that you could post and POINT OUT SPECIFICALLY the parts that support your points.

I already proved you wrong. I'm not here to argue with someone that stated "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ." I simply don't argue facts against what someone believes.

You do your thing I'll do mine. Have a nice day. If you grow up, maybe we will converse in the future. Bye Bye

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I already proved you wrong. I'm not here to argue with someone that stated "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ." I simply don't argue facts against what someone believes.

You do your thing I'll do mine. Have a nice day. If you grow up, maybe we will converse in the future. Bye Bye

How did you prove me wrong? You’re a nobody and I’m not agreeing with your “proof”. You don’t understand that estrogen is just one of about 15-20 processes in the human body that affect “water retention” and that estrogen is merely a step in the process. The mere presence of high e2 doesn’t result in retained water. There’s PLENTY of guys here that have had estrogen over 80-100 and didn’t even know until they got the blood test results back. Their estrogen was high then they all should have been retaining water. Yet they do not.

 

[HeavyW8]

How did you prove me wrong? You’re a nobody and I’m not agreeing with your “proof”. You don’t understand that estrogen is just one of about 15-20 processes in the human body that affect “water retention” and that estrogen is merely a step in the process. The mere presence of high e2 doesn’t result in retained water. There’s PLENTY of guys here that have had estrogen over 80-100 and didn’t even know until they got the blood test results back. Their estrogen was high then they all should have been retaining water. Yet they do not.

I'm a random nobody on this forum. You are a random nobody on this forum who can't stand to be told when he is wrong.

You simply can't argue that your statement: "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."
is true and you know this.
Again, its ok to be wrong pal, Relax.
Now you just deflect and assume what I know and what I don't know.

I don't have to justify myself or my knowledge to you but just so you know, I've talked with KOLs and been in charge of case studies involving the processes of water retention and researched so forgive me for not going down this road with an internet forum nobody.

There is simply no way for you to defend your bullshit statement. Rather than admit you were wrong, you continue to act like a child. I will indeed ignore you.

Again, have a nice day sir.

 

[TomJ]

I'm a random nobody on this forum. You are a random nobody on this forum who can't stand to be told when he is wrong.

You simply can't argue that your statement: "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."
is true and you know this.
Again, its ok to be wrong pal, Relax.
Now you just deflect and assume what I know and what I don't know.

I don't have to justify myself or my knowledge to you but just so you know, I've talked with KOLs and been in charge of case studies involving the processes of water retention and researched so forgive me for not going down this road with an internet forum nobody.

There is simply no way for you to defend your bullshit statement. Rather than admit you were wrong, you continue to act like a child. I will indeed ignore you.

Again, have a nice day sir.

cite a study.
because the flawed, mostly inapplicable study that 69 posted directly refuted what youre saying.

youre just regurgitating bro science

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I'm a random nobody on this forum. You are a random nobody on this forum who can't stand to be told when he is wrong.

You simply can't argue that your statement: "Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water ."
is true and you know this.
Again, its ok to be wrong pal, Relax.
Now you just deflect and assume what I know and what I don't know.

I don't have to justify myself or my knowledge to you but just so you know, I've talked with KOLs and been in charge of case studies involving the processes of water retention and researched so forgive me for not going down this road with an internet forum nobody.

There is simply no way for you to defend your bullshit statement. Rather than admit you were wrong, you continue to act like a child. I will indeed ignore you.

Again, have a nice day sir.

I don’t care. I honestly don’t. Im not wrong. The readers will see and believe who they want to believe. Post up one of your studies bro, I’m confident that you have none. You’ll have an excuse no doubt.

Thank you, I will have an incredible day. You too!

 

[Send0]

I am not attacking you personally and your juvenile overreaction is embarrassing. Perhaps you need to up your AI.

Being frank... you have been kind of condescending instead of having a discussion of differing opinions.

Add in the fact that you keep throwing in the phrase "bro science", with the intention to be insulting, and I can kind of understand the responses you're getting. Comments like "you need to up your AI" certainly come off as being an ass.

BBBG and I don't exactly have a great relationship, but even I have to admit you come off kind of lifte.... I mean douchey. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how it reads.

Despite all that, I think the replies have been civil.

 

[HeavyW8]

Being frank... you have been kind of condescending instead of having a discussion of differing opinions.

Add in the fact that you keep throwing in the phrase "bro science", with the intention to be insulting, and I can kind of understand the responses you're getting. Comments like "you need to up your AI" certainly come off as being an ass.

BBBG and I don't exactly have a great relationship, but even I have to admit you come off kind of lifte.... I mean douchey. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how it reads.

Despite all that, I think the replies have been civil.

So you think the OP a retard is civil huh? I'm sorry you take my bro science response as insulting. I didn't mean it that way. The guy you are defending actually calls people names and insults.
I did not do that.
It doesn't matter though. I've already moved on from this nonsense. Your post is quite one sided imo.

 

[Send0]

So you think the OP a retard is civil huh? I'm sorry you take my bro science response as insulting. I didn't mean it that way. The guy you are defending actually calls people names and insults.
I did not do that.
It doesn't matter though. I've already moved on from this nonsense. Your post is quite one sided imo.

The OP has a long storied history of being a hypochondriac and making ridiculous posts. I'm not condoning anything, but I understand exactly why he's catching shit. Do you make it a point to defend people you know nothing about?

You clearly were not done with this, as you decided to end your post with one more jab towards me.

If my post seems one sided, it's because you seem to be doing the vast majority of the instigating, and you're targeting one person depsite at least 2 other people making similar statements. Remove your emotions from the equation and go back and read what people have said; it will read much differently if you're able to do that.

If you can't do that, then to quote you... "Perhaps you should up your AI".

 

[cocoh23]

Holy shit! Connor the Retard is back! What’s up Connor? Looks like you’re on the right track.

I think I used to repeatedly give you the same advice as I will give you now. “Do what your doctor says.” Take the AI. You shouldn’t need much to control estrogen. Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water or “moon face”. Estrogen causes your body to be more sensitive to sodium. It’s sodium that ultimately causes all those issues. But you can interrupt that by taking the AI. AI is only bad when guys are abusing steroids and piping aI like tic tacs. You will only be taking 0.25 mg to 0.5 mg a week. Don’t worry about that.

If it’s real TRT and you’re not just spinning another retarded story, the bloodwork will tell the story.

Raws are still coming out of China btw. No worries at all. The sky hasn’t fallen.

Damn. Looks like I’m gonna have to do some searching on low sodium foods and probably cut out some things indefinitely like tuna. I’ll be honest, I’m not great when it comes to carefully calculating sodium intake. I’m not familiar with high sodium foods and low sodium foods. Looks like I’ll need to educate myself with that.
It’s certainly real TRT. I’ve been under the care of a TRT clinic for the last 3/4 months via telemedicine. But they follow DEA guidelines strictly which i suppose is a “good thing”. Obviously I don’t know what kind of dose they would place me on. But hopefully nothing over 125 mg. It sucks since I eventually wanted to have children buuuuut that’s my own fault.
Shit with the way the DEA is about to do testosterone over telemedicine - most people are going to have to go back to underground to get trt or say they are a tranny. Too bad for the DEA that drugs always win. They are only hurting people