How close do you train to failure?

[transcend2007]

I was listening to a podcast with Dr. Mike Israetel today.

The discussion was on training volume and how many reps is best to leave in the tank for hypertrophy.

He said that by far failure does get the most hypertrophy but it also exponentially increases our level of fatigue ... so in the idea is to growing (muscles) as much as possible today and this week as well as next week training a most sets or even exercises to failure is counter productive.

His recommendation was to train to the point where 2 reps were left in the tank ... I will say in the past I trained a ton to failure but to be honest I burned out and even dealt with more injuries ...

I like the idea of moderate to high training volume with 2 reps left in the tank on most workout sets ...

How many reps do you like leaving in the tank?

 

[Achillesking]

This is dumb

 

[TomJ]

I was listening to a podcast with Dr. Mike Israetel today.

The discussion was on training volume and how many reps is best to leave in the tank for hypertrophy.

He said that by far failure does get the most hypertrophy but it also exponentially increases our level of fatigue ... so in the idea is to growing (muscles) as much as possible today and this week as well as next week training a most sets or even exercises to failure is counter productive.

His recommendation was to train to the point where 2 reps were left in the tank ... I will say in the past I trained a ton to failure but to be honest I burned out and even dealt with more injuries ...

I like the idea of moderate to high training volume with 2 reps left in the tank on most workout sets ...

How many reps do you like leaving in the tank?

There is no issue with mike israetels methodologies on paper. on paper its completely logical for managing fatigue, minimizing injury, and minimizing downtime.

however the huge issue with his methodology is that it NEVER works in practice, even for the most experienced lifters.

how many times have you been doing a movement, got to say 8 reps, thought for sure youd fail on 10, but got 13? this happens on almost a weekly basis for most people training to true failure. So in practice this methodology just leaves hypertrophy on the table, very consistently.


will you still progress performing the RP methodology? sure.
but it will be objectively less progress in nearly 100% of situations for hypertrophy than training to failure.

the RP training framework was originally a very good powerlifting and athletic training framework, that had been adapted to apply to hypertrophy training, but unfortunately it falls short at reinventing the wheel and just leaves people not getting the most out of their training.


in my opinion, if you are actively pursuing muscle growth then its a non-option. But if you are aiming for more of a strength focused approach, or are an older lifter trying to mitigate injury and fatigue, i could see an argument for its use

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

How many reps do you like leaving in the tank?

"None" is the correct answer.

Why would you spend all your free time working towards/learning about your goal, just to put in 80% effort into doing the thing you're working towards?

*conversation between Paul Carter and Jordan Peters

Jordan Peters Already Ditches the "RIR High Volume" Training

He posted about it this morning on his IG. Dante and I both told him it wouldn’t work. But he told me this morning he needed to see it for himself. I asked him what happened with the change over to the RP training system…attaching our DM about it. I’ve got over half a dozen people that used...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Oakley6575]

If you've ever watched any of his videos where he trains people, he takes them to failure, every time... They are dying by the end of the set. So it always confuses me how he essentially doesn't practice what he preaches.

 

[PZT]

If you've ever watched any of his videos where he trains people, he takes them to failure, every time... They are dying by the end of the set. So it always confuses me how he essentially doesn't practice what he preaches.

But he sounds smart asf though, right? Lol

 

[transcend2007]

But he sounds smart asf though, right? Lol

Well the dude has earned his PHD in Sport Physiology ... and clearly is personally experienced ...

The discussion becomes more confusing (to me) when the idea of training volume is included .... as an example he is not suggest a Dorian Yates type of workout plan with 1 intense workout set and only taking that 1 set to on RPE of 2 ... he is talking about doing serious volume 4_ sets per exercise .. and even this becomes more confusing because as you pyramid up in weight the 3rd or 4th set seem to reach failure far easier ... and all the sudden anything being left it the tank is reduced ...

I will say I believe that his main argument was that MORE VOLUME was better than MORE INTENSITY ... again for hypertrophy ... and in order to know how much volume was appropriate could take weeks even months to train the proper amount of volume for the maximum amount of hypertrophy ...

In any case, its super interesting topic ... worth consideration ....

 

[snake]

"None" is the correct answer.

Why would you spend all your free time working towards/learning about your goal, just to put in 80% effort into doing the thing you're working towards?

So to be clear, I'm not doing something right if I'm not going to failure?

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

Well the dude has earned his PHD in Sport Physiology ... and clearly is personally experienced ...

The discussion becomes more confusing (to me) when the idea of training volume is included .... as an example he is not suggest a Dorian Yates type of workout plan with 1 intense workout set and only taking that 1 set to on RPE of 2 ... he is talking about doing serious volume 4_ sets per exercise .. and even this becomes more confusing because as you pyramid up in weight the 3rd or 4th set seem to reach failure far easier ... and all the sudden anything being left it the tank is reduced ...

I will say I believe that his main argument was that MORE VOLUME was better than MORE INTENSITY ... again for hypertrophy ... and in order to know how much volume was appropriate could take weeks even months to train the proper amount of volume for the maximum amount of hypertrophy ...

In any case, its super interesting topic ... worth consideration ....

His own book (Scientific Principles of Hypertrophy Training) shows that training to failure is most effective. They just go into fatigue management, which is where the RIR stuff comes into play.
A few clippings...

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

So to be clear, I'm not doing something right if I'm not going to failure?

The RP crew frequently trains their clients to failure, yet preaches RIR... I wonder why?

 

[transcend2007]

So to be clear, I'm not doing something right if I'm not going to failure?

According to Dr Mike ... you are doing it right (if you're not training to failure) ...

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

According to Dr Mike ... you are doing it right (if you're not training to failure) ...

So why do they train their clients to failure despite going against their own recommendations?

 

[Oakley6575]

His whole deal is frequency is king... The more you can train a muscle group, the more progress you will make.

When you train a body part 3 times a week, you have to dial back intensity or you can't train it two days later.

If you are looking to not go to failure because you don't like to work hard, then good for you. Do that. But then in order to progress, you need to train more often.

 

[Achillesking]

So why do they train their clients to failure despite going against their own recommendations?

Because they need to make moneyssss

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

His whole deal is frequency is king... The more you can train a muscle group, the more progress you will make.

When you train a body part 3 times a week, you have to dial back intensity or you can't train it two days later.

UNLESS

You train Full Body 3x per week, each muscle to failure but only 1 working set per muscle.

Just saying.

 

[Btcowboy]

All about the cheddar, he is only after more cash

 

[transcend2007]

So why do they train their clients to failure despite going against their own recommendations?

I am not expert on the topic ... had just heard the podcast today and thought it would make a good topic ...

As far as when he recommended it (training to failure) on the podcast ... the closer someone was to deload or break .. the more it would make sense ....

I am just thinking about how this all plays into a real world practice ... different people view intensity differently ... some peoples 1 or 2 reps in the tank may be different from another (higher or lower) ...

AR -- do you work every non-warmup set to failure ... ?

 

[snake]

So why do they train their clients to failure despite going against their own recommendations?

According to Dr Mike ... you are doing it right (if you're not training to failure) ...

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I am looking at this based on a long career. What you you do at 30 y.o. by pushing beyond your abilities only gets you severely injured in your 50's.

Youth trumps all and that is what will dictate when enough is enough.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

As far as when he recommended it (training to failure) on the podcast ... the closer someone was to deload or break .. the more it would make sense ....

It would make more sense to just deload tbh. Fatigue management can be accomplished through routes that don't involve leaving reps in the tank.

I am just thinking about how this all plays into a real world practice ... different people view intensity differently ... some peoples 1 or 2 reps in the tank may be different from another (higher or lower) ...

It is irrelevant if you and I have different working weights and reps to get to failure. What remains constant is that you REACH FAILURE.

AR -- do you work every non-warmup set to failure ... ?

Yes, unless it is a specific lift with a specific purpose - but even those are very rare for me.
I've trained sub-failure before and thought more volume was the answer... it wasn't. I started training to failure and watched my physique take off.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

What you you do at 30 y.o. by pushing beyond your abilities only gets you severely injured in your 50's.

I feel like @1bigun11 might have a few thoughts on this.

Yes, you can progress without going to failure... for a time. Eventually, it is my belief that you must train to failure if you want to progress.