Proof of autophagy?

[Gadawg]

So, autophagy is now a big buzz word but we know for sure it happens at accelerated rates during any calorie deficit big enough to cut body weight and during fasts over about 24-36 hours.

I give blood every eight weeks or so and have for years. On the red cross app they keep track of your hemoglobin numbers. I am always between 16.8 and 17.2 on my trt dose of test.

I recently did a rather intense cut that I finished with a two day fast. The following day I donated blood. This time, my hemoglobin was 14.2.

I lost 21 pounds in that period.

Proof of autophagy?

PS- there are multiple peer reviewed journal articles linking rbc drops to long fasts.

 

[GreenAmine]

It's my understanding that fasting/caloric restriction actually increases RBC production. Autophagy is a crucial step in erythropoiesis, where the body harvests old/damaged cell parts and uses them to assemble new RBCs. These 2 papers explain it better than I can:

Autophagy: A necessary event during erythropoiesis

Autophagy is a well-known cellular process involved in many physiological and pathological processes. During erythropoiesis, autophagy plays an import…

www.sciencedirect.com

Short-term intensive fasting improves red blood cell function and rejuvenates erythropoiesis via regulating MS4A3-CDK2 module

Fasting is known to improve health, but the precisely beneficial effects of specific types of fasting and their underlying mechanisms are not fully understood. We herein report that in humans, occasional short-term intensive fasting (STIF), a traditional fasting format favored by Asians...

www.medrxiv.org

Your decreased hematocrit could be explained by a lack of dietary iron, since you were in a caloric deficit. That's just a guess though.

 

[Gadawg]

It's my understanding that fasting/caloric restriction actually increases RBC production. Autophagy is a crucial step in erythropoiesis, where the body harvests old/damaged cell parts and uses them to assemble new RBCs. These 2 papers explain it better than I can:

Autophagy: A necessary event during erythropoiesis

Autophagy is a well-known cellular process involved in many physiological and pathological processes. During erythropoiesis, autophagy plays an import…

www.sciencedirect.com

Short-term intensive fasting improves red blood cell function and rejuvenates erythropoiesis via regulating MS4A3-CDK2 module

Fasting is known to improve health, but the precisely beneficial effects of specific types of fasting and their underlying mechanisms are not fully understood. We herein report that in humans, occasional short-term intensive fasting (STIF), a traditional fasting format favored by Asians...

www.medrxiv.org

Your decreased hematocrit could be explained by a lack of dietary iron, since you were in a caloric deficit. That's just a guess though.

I cant imagine. I hadnt cut protein sources at all. And was on 50 mg anavar most days. Youd expect it to increase.

 

[Gadawg]

Interesting nonetheless.

Thanks for the studies.

 

[Gadawg]

I would note too that despite the lower rbc, and particularly after donating (so it’s even lower) my cardio is the best it has ever been.

Granted, I do weigh a lot less. But my cardio normally drops off a good bit for a week or so after donating.

 

[GreenAmine]

I cant imagine. I hadnt cut protein sources at all. And was on 50 mg anavar most days. Youd expect it to increase.

Especially if your protein sources were at least partially red meat, yes, iron levels should be okay. Add anavar to that, and yeah, iron levels should stay high.

A cursory literature search was not fruitful concerning iron levels and fasting with high protein intake. The studies that I did find were about calorie restriction (including protein) and stated that iron levels decreased, which is expected. I was hoping for a protein-sparing modified fast study that tracked iron levels, but I did not find any.

I suppose that it's entirely possible that the body lowers the rate of erythropoiesis during ANY form of caloric restriction, but I'm unaware of any literature supporting this assertion.

 

[Gadawg]

Well, again, the previous day I had completed a 48 hour total calorie fast. Nothing at all but water and coffee.

But previous to that, during the 3 month cut, I was calorie restricting by way of a 4 hour eating window. I was just careful to keep protein very high in that window.

 

[underoos12]

It's my understanding that fasting/caloric restriction actually increases RBC production. Autophagy is a crucial step in erythropoiesis, where the body harvests old/damaged cell parts and uses them to assemble new RBCs. These 2 papers explain it better than I can:

Autophagy: A necessary event during erythropoiesis

Autophagy is a well-known cellular process involved in many physiological and pathological processes. During erythropoiesis, autophagy plays an import…

www.sciencedirect.com

Short-term intensive fasting improves red blood cell function and rejuvenates erythropoiesis via regulating MS4A3-CDK2 module

Fasting is known to improve health, but the precisely beneficial effects of specific types of fasting and their underlying mechanisms are not fully understood. We herein report that in humans, occasional short-term intensive fasting (STIF), a traditional fasting format favored by Asians...

www.medrxiv.org

Your decreased hematocrit could be explained by a lack of dietary iron, since you were in a caloric deficit. That's just a guess though.

Seems about right. When I first saw OPs post earlier today I did a simple google search. The first and most recent papers that popped up also claimed fasting helps RBC production, however in short intervals of I believe it was only 6 hours at a time.

Being that this is something I only recently looked up though I didn't comment. Since you did though, based on the little bit of info I know from looking this up just now like you, yeah, I tend agree.

Oh, I forgot, I'm no expert on this so I hope no one is offended or unhinged by my comments. I was just curious, did a simple search and that is it.

 

[PZT]

Im so lazy I didn’t read a post but came in with the intent to figured out wtf autho-fag-e is? Continue….

 

[Gadawg]

Im so lazy I didn’t read a post but came in with the intent to figured out wtf autho-fag-e is? Continue….

Basically it’s the selective consumption and recycling of cells in the body that are less than ideal. A cellular cleanup if you will.

The body is doing this at a low level most of the time but calorie restriction ramps up the process considerably.

 

[PZT]

Basically it’s the selective consumption and recycling of cells in the body that are less than ideal. A cellular cleanup if you will.

The body is doing this at a low level most of the time but calorie restriction ramps up the process considerably.

Check.

PZT.Be.Less.Fat.

 

[Reader591]

I’d be interested to see if it had any effect on my red blood count. I fast a lot less these days, but still sometimes something screws up my gut, I feel overly inflamed, or whatever else and my go to is to fast. Even just 24 hours will do me a lot of benifit.

I also tend to get in 12-14 hour “fasts” daily. Just the way I eat though. But I know you tend to need 2-3 days to really ramp up autophagy. I do that 2-3 times a year. By day three I can’t sleep. I’m wired awake and normally have to eat a small something to sleep. I’m guessing that’s cortisol rising from not eating?

Still, it would be an interesting correlation to see, but I wouldn’t think to call it proof of autophagy.

 

[transcend2007]

I must just be contrarian by nature .. or just like to argue in general maybe ... lol

But the science on intermittent fasting or any fasting is far from settled although there is no doubt a mountain for so called (cherry-picked) research from people who support it .. they of course are typically selling a book or something (building a You-Tube channel to monetize etc) ...

The science without something to sell is far less clear ... most research done with over 1,000 participants for a year or longer would indicate that fasting (intermittent or any other kind) is nothing more than a calorie control mechanism and not any more effect .. perhaps less so .... than simply restricting / counting calories ...

However, fasting may work better for some individuals who are unable or unwilling to count or restrict calories or lack the discipline to do it ... which of course makes sense ... it would be easier to eat between the hours or 1pm and 6pm only .. whatever your want .. the shorter time window simply forces them to eat less without the weighing - restricting or counting ...

People often mix low carb with intermittent fasting and think they have created a magic bullet. Of course until you stop low carb or fasting and return a normal life and realize you've haven't actually learned or implemented any real habit change or learned anything about diet - nutrition or exercise ... which are what are actually required to improve over time ... so long story longer ... there are no magic bullets .. just learn the basics of diet - nutrition and exercise and get better results than 99% of the population ...

So what the topic .. auto-biography or something .. read above for mine ...

 

[Reader591]

The science without something to sell is far less clear ... most research done with over 1,000 participants for a year or longer would indicate that fasting (intermittent or any other kind) is nothing more than a calorie control mechanism and not any more effect .. perhaps less so .... than simply restricting / counting calories ...

Everything I’ve read shows this to be the case.

But also the lower the calories the more autophagy.

Nothing is lower than no calories.

So what you’re saying comes in play more with short fasts daily not being more effective than simply reducing calories for autophagy.

But over the course of days, and only within those days, how could it not be higher than someone eating 1200 calories a day.

Now over the course of a week if calories are equal, is autphoagy equal between those that fasted 3 days and those that restricted daily with no set fasting schedule? No idea, I’d think probably so. Haven’t seen anything non that

 

[Reader591]

However, fasting may work better for some individuals who are unable or unwilling to count or restrict calories or lack the discipline to do it ... which of course makes sense ... it would be easier to eat between the hours or 1pm and 6pm only .. whatever your want .. the shorter time window simply forces them to eat less without the weighing - restricting or counting ...

I’d also say it boils down to that. But I’m in that camp in a cut. It’s easier for me to just not eat. I get really hungry eating small meals. I just want to either eat or not. I’d say that’s just preference.

 

[Gadawg]

Fasting is calorie restriction. If you lose body weight, you increase autophagy. Doesnt matter how you do it.

I just find it to be the easiest way and gives me by far the best results energy wise.

 

[Gadawg]

I would add that it changes your digestive system entirely for the better as well.

 

[GreenAmine]

If you lose body weight, you increase autophagy

Maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly, but this doesn't sound completely correct. Weight loss can [technically] occur without an increase in autophagy. Loss of adipose tissue, for example, could simply be the metabolic breakdown of lipids from the reservoir inside of an adipocyte, or of the lipids comprising the plama membrane of the adipocyte as it shrinks. Autophagy, in a strict definition of the word, is a tightly-controlled lysosome-dependent process, which is separate from metabolic pathways.

(Forgive me if I'm being pedantic.)

 

[white ape]

Maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly, but this doesn't sound completely correct. Weight loss can [technically] occur without an increase in autophagy. Loss of adipose tissue, for example, could simply be the metabolic breakdown of lipids from the reservoir inside of an adipocyte, or of the lipids comprising the plama membrane of the adipocyte as it shrinks. Autophagy, in a strict definition of the word, is a tightly-controlled lysosome-dependent process, which is separate from metabolic pathways.

(Forgive me if I'm being pedantic.)

This is how I understood it as well. Autophagy occurs do to a stressor such as longer fasts, caloric restrictions, exercise, or even sauna sessions.

Can some of these also lead to decreased body mass? Yes, but I thing the trigger for autaphagy is the stressor.

 

[white ape]

So, autophagy is now a big buzz word but we know for sure it happens at accelerated rates during any calorie deficit big enough to cut body weight and during fasts over about 24-36 hours.

I give blood every eight weeks or so and have for years. On the red cross app they keep track of your hemoglobin numbers. I am always between 16.8 and 17.2 on my trt dose of test.

I recently did a rather intense cut that I finished with a two day fast. The following day I donated blood. This time, my hemoglobin was 14.2.

I lost 21 pounds in that period.

Proof of autophagy?

PS- there are multiple peer reviewed journal articles linking rbc drops to long fasts.

You lost 21 pounds in 48 hours? So I would imagine that you’re drinking plenty of water during the fast. Could being fully hydrated and not having fats and sugars saturating your blood stream be the cause of the lower hemoglobin markers?

Or maybe I’m getting confused with hemocrit levels….