Top / Backoff sets vs straight for faster workouts ?

[Kraken]

My gym sessions are taking too long, nearly two hours. It's because I'm doing a 5x5 program and straight sets, and as the weight went up my rest between sets is up to 4 to 5 minutes. I was reading about Top / backoff sets, where I do warmup sets to a really heavy set and do it at 5 reps, then take 10% weight off, rest for 1 to 2 minutes and then do the next set, wait 1 to 2 minutes, next set and so on.

It sounds good, but I have a few concerns.

First, will it be as effective for building strength and adding muscle? It seems like less volume in the same time period. Does working the muscles when they are less recovered still force improvement?

Also, it seems hard assess progress. Right now I can do 5x5 dead lifts at 290 pounds (same with squats at 285). It's hard, but with a 5 minute wait between sets I can get them all in. I admit, psychologically its easy to feel comfortable that when I can do this at 295 and then 300 I'm pretty sure I made some demonstrable progress. If I reduce the weight after the first set, how do I know I'm improving and when it's time to add to the top set?

It also seems the first set needs to be really close to failure at the 5th rep of the top set. That makes me a little nervous when squatting, since failure there involves falling (I do have the safety bars set in the rack). I have yet to fail on a squat and fall, although I have failed on OHP, bench, dead lift and so on. No harm failing there. Okay maybe a little embarrassing.

I would appreciate thoughts about this and/or other ways to get my gym visits shorter yet be able to get good results. Thanks!

 

[CohibaRobusto]

Man I can't take rest intervals that long. For one I'm in a public gym, and I feel like it's rude to hog equipment that long doing 5 minute intervals. Secondly, I'd just get bored.

I do most sets to failure (so less sets probably than some), and I prefer 2 minute rest intervals. Sometimes they feel a bit long on isolation work. But for compounds it's fine. 3 minutes for squats.

My workouts are structured to be about a solid hour to1:15 of lifting, and my split works out that I hit everything I need to in the volume I need that way.

I also do about 30 mins of cardio.

I don't like 5x5, it seems like it adds some wasted sets where you're far from failure so what are you doing exactly then, warming up?

But I know plenty of people who do it and stand by it. It seems like more of a powerlifter thing to me. I have no clue when it comes to that, I just wanna look good naked lol.

 

[CJ]

My gym sessions are taking too long, nearly two hours. It's because I'm doing a 5x5 program and straight sets, and as the weight went up my rest between sets is up to 4 to 5 minutes. I was reading about Top / backoff sets, where I do warmup sets to a really heavy set and do it at 5 reps, then take 10% weight off, rest for 1 to 2 minutes and then do the next set, wait 1 to 2 minutes, next set and so on.

It sounds good, but I have a few concerns.

First, will it be as effective for building strength and adding muscle? It seems like less volume in the same time period. Does working the muscles when they are less recovered still force improvement?

Your strength will probably increase, because you only have to perform a single top set. You'll be able to lift more weight for 1 set than you could for 5x5.

As for hypertrophy, it's less volume, so depending upon how much you're already doing vs what's optimal, yes, potentially you'd be leaving gainzzz on the table.

Also, it seems hard assess progress. Right now I can do 5x5 dead lifts at 290 pounds (same with squats at 285). It's hard, but with a 5 minute wait between sets I can get them all in. I admit, psychologically its easy to feel comfortable that when I can do this at 295 and then 300 I'm pretty sure I made some demonstrable progress. If I reduce the weight after the first set, how do I know I'm improving and when it's time to add to the top set?

You gauge each set individually. As long as they're going up over time, either in weight or reps, by definition you're making progress.

It also seems the first set needs to be really close to failure at the 5th rep of the top set. That makes me a little nervous when squatting, since failure there involves falling (I do have the safety bars set in the rack). I have yet to fail on a squat and fall, although I have failed on OHP, bench, dead lift and so on. No harm failing there. Okay maybe a little embarrassing.

You probably don't want to go to true failure, especially on dangerous exercises, as the fatigue from that last rep outweighs the extra benefit of the rep itself. 1-3 reps away is perfectly fine, just be honest with yourself that you're really there. Extra sets is how one makes up for sets that aren't close to/to failure.

I would appreciate thoughts about this and/or other ways to get my gym visits shorter yet be able to get good results. Thanks!

2 hours is too long, cut it back to 90 minutes, at most. By far the best way 8s to reduce your rest intervals to 3 minutes. That'll solve the problem.

 

[Jeffgoldblumlipswork]

My gym sessions are taking too long, nearly two hours. It's because I'm doing a 5x5 program and straight sets, and as the weight went up my rest between sets is up to 4 to 5 minutes. I was reading about Top / backoff sets, where I do warmup sets to a really heavy set and do it at 5 reps, then take 10% weight off, rest for 1 to 2 minutes and then do the next set, wait 1 to 2 minutes, next set and so on.

It sounds good, but I have a few concerns.

First, will it be as effective for building strength and adding muscle? It seems like less volume in the same time period. Does working the muscles when they are less recovered still force improvement?

Also, it seems hard assess progress. Right now I can do 5x5 dead lifts at 290 pounds (same with squats at 285). It's hard, but with a 5 minute wait between sets I can get them all in. I admit, psychologically its easy to feel comfortable that when I can do this at 295 and then 300 I'm pretty sure I made some demonstrable progress. If I reduce the weight after the first set, how do I know I'm improving and when it's time to add to the top set?

It also seems the first set needs to be really close to failure at the 5th rep of the top set. That makes me a little nervous when squatting, since failure there involves falling (I do have the safety bars set in the rack). I have yet to fail on a squat and fall, although I have failed on OHP, bench, dead lift and so on. No harm failing there. Okay maybe a little embarrassing.

I would appreciate thoughts about this and/or other ways to get my gym visits shorter yet be able to get good results. Thanks!

5x5 was great when I was learning the foundational movements but now there isn't much I'll do for more than 3 sets. Usually just 2. Warm up set, top set, then maybe another top set but I'm usually only getting 1/2 as many reps. If my second top set hits almost the same reps I may add a third set. The top set weight will then increase next time I train that movement.
You can still make progress without going to "true" failure every time.
The convoluting factor will be the anabolics. I didn't start using fewer sets until those came into the picture.

 

[CJ]

5x5 was great when I was learning the foundational movements but now there isn't much I'll do for more than 3 sets. Usually just 2. Warm up set, top set, then maybe another top set but I'm usually only getting 1/2 as many reps. If my second top set hits almost the same reps I may add a third set. The top set weight will then increase next time I train that movement.
You can still make progress without going to "true" failure every time.
The convoluting factor will be the anabolics. I didn't start using fewer sets until those came into the picture.

The typical progression after running out a 5x5 is to switch to a 3x5.

And maybe add assistance/accessory work, too.

 

[Yano]

5x5 was great when I was learning the foundational movements but now there isn't much I'll do for more than 3 sets. Usually just 2. Warm up set, top set, then maybe another top set but I'm usually only getting 1/2 as many reps. If my second top set hits almost the same reps I may add a third set. The top set weight will then increase next time I train that movement.
You can still make progress without going to "true" failure every time.
The convoluting factor will be the anabolics. I didn't start using fewer sets until those came into the picture.

there are so many interpretations of 5x5 these days I dont think any one really does a true working 5x5 any more

cut out the fluff , 2 reps each progression to top set , then the 5 sets of 5 with that

I still love to use 5x5 for heavy accessories , 9x3 , 8x2 , 6x4 and so on

 

[Jeffgoldblumlipswork]

The typical progression after running out a 5x5 is to switch to a 3x5.

And maybe add assistance/accessory work, too.

I didn't get the memo. Went to 10x10 for quads and 8-12x4 for everything else.

 

[CJ]

I didn't get the memo. Went to 10x10 for quads and 8-12x4 for everything else.

Don't ever do 10x10 again. The first 7 sets are junk, and the final 3 sets are subpar because you tired yourself out doing the 7 glorified warmup sets, so you're forced to use less weight than you would've if you had just done a basic 3x10.

 

[eazy]

get my gym visits shorter yet be able to get good results

new program

upper/lower 4x per week

warm up. two sets to failure, with two minutes rest between sets. next movement.
6-9 reps on compounds. 10-15 reps on accessories.

Upper

1 Chest Press
1 Chest Isolation
1 Delt Press
1 Delt Isolation
1 Back Width
1 Back Thickness
1 Triceps
1 Biceps
1 Forearm

Lower

1 Hamstring Isolation
1 Thigh Compound
1 Quad Isolation
1 Deadlift variation
1 Adductor
1 Calf

 

[Kraken]

Thanks to everyone, I appreciate your help. @eazy that might be more complex than I'm ready for. And maybe I'm being intellectually lazy, but there is benefit to going on, grabbing a rack and being able to do simple compound exercises.

@CJ okay if I understood correctly, doing warmup, then top set then backoff will improve strength but growth will slow but still be there. Is there a way to get the most of both? I still don't understand the whole strength vs size thing well. I'm not trying to enter any competitions.

The last thing I need to improve at is assessing just how hard I really worked. I'm not good at knowing if I could have done more, although I'm trying to get there. It seems if I really do as much as I can for the top set short of failure, then do the back off sets, I'm still good?

How much to back off? 10%? 5%?

Update: I understand the RPE thing, I'm still learning what is really an 8 vs a 9 or a 6.

 

[CJ]

@CJ okay if I understood correctly, doing warmup, then top set then backoff will improve strength but growth will slow but still be there.

If done properly, probably.

Is there a way to get the most of both? I still don't understand the whole strength vs size thing well. I'm not trying to enter any competitions.

Yes, of course you can get both concurrently, but training for both will of course dictate that you get less than optimal from both.

The last thing I need to improve at is assessing just how hard I really worked. I'm not good at knowing if I could have done more, although I'm trying to get there. It seems if I really do as much as I can for the top set short of failure, then do the back off sets, I'm still good?

Yes, if you get as many quality reps as possible, and the number of reps and/or weight progresses over time, you are by definition making progress.

How much to back off? 10%? 5%?

Doesn't really matter. Pick a rep range you're going for, and when you get to the top of that rep range, add weight.

Update: I understand the RPE thing, I'm still learning what is really an 8 vs a 9 or a 6.

It takes time, it's both a learned skill, and your body allowing you to push harder. Just keep training hard, and you will get better at it. Oh, and don't ever do an RPE6. While learning, train as hard as you can, for as many quality reps as possible.

 

[Kraken]

I'll be at the gym this afternoon and today will be the first day doing top/backoff with 2 minute rest periods. Thanks very much @CJ and everyone!

 

[CJ]

I'll be at the gym this afternoon and today will be the first day doing top/backoff with 2 minute rest periods. Thanks very much @CJ and everyone!

Why not try 2 backoff sets? Going from 5 sets to only 2 isn't something that I'd suggest, especially for someone who hasn't learned to train hard yet

What I really think that you should do is continue on with a 3x5, with 3 minute rest periods, and add an assistance exercise.

Something like 3x5 squats, then do some leg extensions. 3x5 deadlifts, then some leg curls. 3x5 benchpress, the some shoulder presses, 3x5 rows, then some pulldowns, etc...

 

[Kraken]

Why not try 2 backoff sets? Going from 5 sets to only 2 isn't something that I'd suggest, especially for someone who hasn't learned to train hard yet

I had planned warmup, a top set, then 4 backoff sets.

What I really think that you should do is continue on with a 3x5, with 3 minute rest periods, and add an assistance exercise.

Something like 3x5 squats, then do some leg extensions. 3x5 deadlifts, then some leg curls. 3x5 benchpress, the some shoulder presses, 3x5 rows, then some pulldowns, etc...

Mostly because I'm clueless on how to make my own program, so I use programs people who know what they are doing designed.

If you can point me to a better program I'm game!

 

[CJ]

Mostly because I'm clueless on how to make my own program, so I use programs people who know what they are doing designed.

If you can point me to a better program I'm game!

Continue on with a 3x5, then do a backoff set after that. Reduce rest to 3 minutes.

 

[Kraken]

Continue on with a 3x5, then do a backoff set after that. Reduce rest to 3 minutes.

Thanks @CJ I'll do exactly that.

 

[CJ]

Thanks @CJ I'll do exactly that.

Good, run that for several months to a year, or longer.

 

[Kraken]

Good, run that for several months to a year, or longer.

Okay, that was... Exhausting!

Normally I would have tried dead lift 5x5 @ 295 with 5 minute rest followed by squat 1x5 @ 285.

As you said I did dead lifts 3x5 @ 295 with 3 minute rest, took 10% off for 265 and did two more 5x5 sets with 3 minute rest. After the second and third sets I was grabbing the rack to keep from falling over, so I guess I worked hard enough on the top sets. I thought the back off sets would be easy but, while not super hard, they sure were far from easy. But I stuck to the 3 minute rest strictly.

The squat started about 8 minutes later, since I had to break down the bar and then set it up again. It was not as hard as the dead but I was unhappy with the depth so I took off 5 and did another 1x5, then 5 pounds more and again 1x5. Then I went home after just about an hour or maybe a bit less.

Is that more or less what you were suggestion? The program calls for one top set wit 4 backoff sets with 2 to 3 minute rests. But, I can modify the whole program to work the way you said.

Oh, about working hard enough... If I'm working hard enough each session, should I expect to feel sore most of the time? I usually don't and it makes me think I should be working harder.

 

[CJ]

Okay, that was... Exhausting!

Normally I would have tried dead lift 5x5 @ 295 with 5 minute rest followed by squat 1x5 @ 285.

As you said I did dead lifts 3x5 @ 295 with 3 minute rest, took 10% off for 265 and did two more 5x5 sets with 3 minute rest. After the second and third sets I was grabbing the rack to keep from falling over, so I guess I worked hard enough on the top sets. I thought the back off sets would be easy but, while not super hard, they sure were far from easy. But I stuck to the 3 minute rest strictly.

The squat started about 8 minutes later, since I had to break down the bar and then set it up again. It was not as hard as the dead but I was unhappy with the depth so I took off 5 and did another 1x5, then 5 pounds more and again 1x5. Then I went home after just about an hour or maybe a bit less.

Do you feel like you had a good, productive workout?

Is that more or less what you were suggestion? The program calls for one top set wit 4 backoff sets with 2 to 3 minute rests. But, I can modify the whole program to work the way you said.

What program are you following? I thought that you were doing a basic 5x5 of some sort?

Oh, about working hard enough... If I'm working hard enough each session, should I expect to feel sore most of the time? I usually don't and it makes me think I should be working harder.

Soreness is not required, but it is a good indicator that you hit the target muscle(s) adequately. Don't worry about it too much, as long as your firm is good and not changing while the weight/reps are increasing, you're OK.

 

[Kraken]

@CJ yes I do think it was a productive workout and I was happy to be done in about an hour. I always feel like I have not done enough, but today I had to leave. Looking back though I think it was good.

Strong Lifts 5x5 Ultra. The regular Stronglifts is a full body workout 3 days per week. Ultra is a variation that is an upper / lower split 4 days per week. There are others variations as well I have not looked at.

For all of them, he says when the weight gets heavy and the workouts long, to switch to 1 top set then 4 backoff sets, with shorter rest periods. Pretty similar to what you advised.

Good to know about the soreness and weight / reps increasing.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise @CJ and everyone, I really appreciate it.

StrongLifts Ultra