Deca or just high test

[SFGiants]

Would there be an accumulation or “build-up” due to the longer elimination time?

Edit: I don’t think it would be that significant though.

I always looked at it as more saturated so possibly, as one comes and goes much faster. No proof just what I thought.

Taking a look at how I saw Deca vs NPP is how I came to that conclusion for myself, more wet on deca but wet on both. Npp leaving much quicker rather than hanging around so long is why I saw it that way.

Or it was just diet!

Only real studies I can truly go by was sefl studies, all our self studies differ though, they are close and similar but differ.

 

[TODAY]

Taking a look at how I saw Deca vs NPP is how I came to that conclusion for myself, more wet on deca but wet on both. Npp leaving much quicker rather than hanging around so long is why I saw it that way.

Or it was just diet!

Only real studies I can truly go by was sefl studies, all our self studies differ though, they are close and similar but differ.

And probably more stable hormone levels, assuming a consistent dosing schedule

 

[Mephisto]

I'm not a scientist, more like brosciencist and based on my own experience I can say that I feel short esters more, if I inject daily I can get away with high dosages of test/tren. Long esters I don't really feel good and have to battle with side effects more, short esters I feel more motivated and stable, but then again maybe if I did eod injections of say enanthate I would feel the same? I don't know. Another thing I like is that short esters go away fast and I don't have to deal with sides for the next few weeks in case that happens. I like to get in and get out faster. Patience is not my strongest asset.

For a cruise it's no brainer, I use long esters for sure. Recently I have switched to T undec which I inject once per week with insulin syringe and I like it so far. More like a high cruise. I'm not afraid of injections and I'm not a pussy, but I'm getting smarter in time with my protocol. Why stab my ass twice or more times per week with regular syringe when I can only do it once per week and do half as damage. Win/win situation for me.

source


People been asking me for about two months to make a thread about steroid esters, which makes perfect sense considering all the important data about esters gets lost through all the bro lore. Perhaps, the fundamental thing about esters is that they are more than just a half-life. When people hear "esters." right away they start thinking about that Test C has the half-life of 12 days and do not know that there is a lot more to know about an ester.


Originally, I was going to make an all-inclusive thread about esters, however, time would fail me to do such a thread, therefore, I will narrow it down to "two" main topics that should arouse a lot people's attention, and could be quite helpful for a future reference when designing a cycle. I'm just going to assume everyone on this board knows the basics on the half-life of esters, so we can get to the main functions of different esters. I touted about this subject for a while, so it is time back my assertions with exact science.



1). Short esters yield a higher peak plasma concentration than long esters.

2). Long esters are more anabolic than short esters.


SHORT ESTERS

Short esters do yield a higher peak plasma than long esters. In relation to TEST is TEST, ultimately TEST is TEST, however, depending on what ester is attached to the TEST it will indeed perform a different function.


Here is a study on short esters v. long esters. The study clearly shows that short esters yield a higher peak plasma concentration than long esters, which administers higher levels of the drug.


Scientists examined 3 different testosterone preparations with different ester lengths. What they found was that the shortest ester provided the highest peak levels of testosterone, followed by the medium length ester, and the lowest peak level was found with the longest ester. Even a two- to threefold higher dose of the shortest acting ester studied did not fully achieve the effects of longer esters concerning gonadal and metabolic functions. (2) Did I mention that the amount of pure testosterone (minus the ester) was the same in all injections?

100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone decanoate.

This level remained increased for almost seven days, too. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week probably won't be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone propionate or even Testosterone suspension per week. I'm going to see better results with the propionate and even better results with the suspension.


Peak plasma concentration is just the highest level of drug that can be obtained in the blood, which short esters provide more of a drug then long esters. In other words, you get more bang for your buck from short esters...


LONG ESTERS


Long esters are more anabolic than short esters.


In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester.

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they’re studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester.


Also, testosterone’s effect on Growth Hormone and IGF-I (two very anabolic hormones) are also dependent on aromatization to estrogen? Again, this is why we gain more muscle with the long estered tests. This means that you actually get far more anabolism from the longer estered testosterones, because the increased conversion to estrogen will provide a greater elevation in your GH and IGF-1 levels. And many other positive effects of testosterone are actually dependent on it’s conversion to estrogen as well. Yes, long ester chained TEST create more estrogen than short esters, however, they are more anabolic than short esters, that's why you always hear people bulk on long esters and cut on short esters..

Therefore, long esters are more anabolic than short esters, which they are more beneficial when wanting to slab on muscle.


In conclusion, short esters have a higher peak plasma concentration than short esters, and long esters are more anabolic than short esters, so there is a difference in TEST, TEST is just not TEST, it depends on the ester chain, which performs different functions...


Here is what I recommend for optimal effects on a cycle, and to utilize the esters and the hormones much as possible.


Just an example: 400 mgs/wk Test E for 5 weeks, then 400 mgs/wk of Test P for 3 weeks. This protocol would provide the maximum peak plasma concentration and the most anabolism possible.

The moral of the story, intertwine long and short esters in a cycle to get the maximum benefits..




References:
1. Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
2. Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG
3. Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001
4. Eakman GD, Dallas JS, Ponder SW, Keenan BS 1996 The effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on hypothalamic regulation of growth hormone secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 81:1217–1223
5. [Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420
6. The role of aromatization in testosterone supplementation: Effects on cognition in older men M. M. Cherrier, A. M. Matsumoto, J. K. Amory, S. Ahmed, W. Bremner, E. R. Peskind, M. A. Raskind, M. Johnson, and S. Craft Neurology, Jan 2005; 64: 290 – 296
7. The Complex Role of Estrogens in Inflammation Rainer H. Straub Endocr. Rev., Aug 2007; 28: 521 – 574
8. The Protective Effects of Estrogen on the Cardiovascular SystemMichael E. Mendelsohn and Richard H. Karas N. Engl. J. Med., Jun 1999; 340: 1801 - 1811.
9. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.
10. Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
11. 1. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C.; et al. J. Pharm. Pharmac., 1976, 28, 882-885
12. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C. J. Med. Chem., 1974, 17, 157-161.
13. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.Fertil Steril. 1980 Feb;33(2):201-3.
14. Behre HM, Nieschlag E. Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters. In: Nieschlag E, Behre HM, eds. Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution. 2nd ed. Berlin: Springer;1998:329-348.
15. Pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone propionate in normal menM Fujioka, Y Shinohara, S Baba, M Irie, and K Inoue J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Dec 1986; 63: 1361 – 1364
16. Injectable testosterone undecanoate has more favourable pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics than testosterone enanthateCJ Partsch, GF Weinbauer, R Fang, and E NieschlagEur. J. Endocrinol., Apr 1995; 132: 514 - 519.

 

[lukiss96]

source


People been asking me for about two months to make a thread about steroid esters, which makes perfect sense considering all the important data about esters gets lost through all the bro lore. Perhaps, the fundamental thing about esters is that they are more than just a half-life. When people hear "esters." right away they start thinking about that Test C has the half-life of 12 days and do not know that there is a lot more to know about an ester.


Originally, I was going to make an all-inclusive thread about esters, however, time would fail me to do such a thread, therefore, I will narrow it down to "two" main topics that should arouse a lot people's attention, and could be quite helpful for a future reference when designing a cycle. I'm just going to assume everyone on this board knows the basics on the half-life of esters, so we can get to the main functions of different esters. I touted about this subject for a while, so it is time back my assertions with exact science.



1). Short esters yield a higher peak plasma concentration than long esters.

2). Long esters are more anabolic than short esters.


SHORT ESTERS

Short esters do yield a higher peak plasma than long esters. In relation to TEST is TEST, ultimately TEST is TEST, however, depending on what ester is attached to the TEST it will indeed perform a different function.


Here is a study on short esters v. long esters. The study clearly shows that short esters yield a higher peak plasma concentration than long esters, which administers higher levels of the drug.


Scientists examined 3 different testosterone preparations with different ester lengths. What they found was that the shortest ester provided the highest peak levels of testosterone, followed by the medium length ester, and the lowest peak level was found with the longest ester. Even a two- to threefold higher dose of the shortest acting ester studied did not fully achieve the effects of longer esters concerning gonadal and metabolic functions. (2) Did I mention that the amount of pure testosterone (minus the ester) was the same in all injections?

100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone decanoate.

This level remained increased for almost seven days, too. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week probably won't be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone propionate or even Testosterone suspension per week. I'm going to see better results with the propionate and even better results with the suspension.


Peak plasma concentration is just the highest level of drug that can be obtained in the blood, which short esters provide more of a drug then long esters. In other words, you get more bang for your buck from short esters...


LONG ESTERS


Long esters are more anabolic than short esters.


In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester.

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they’re studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester.


Also, testosterone’s effect on Growth Hormone and IGF-I (two very anabolic hormones) are also dependent on aromatization to estrogen? Again, this is why we gain more muscle with the long estered tests. This means that you actually get far more anabolism from the longer estered testosterones, because the increased conversion to estrogen will provide a greater elevation in your GH and IGF-1 levels. And many other positive effects of testosterone are actually dependent on it’s conversion to estrogen as well. Yes, long ester chained TEST create more estrogen than short esters, however, they are more anabolic than short esters, that's why you always hear people bulk on long esters and cut on short esters..

Therefore, long esters are more anabolic than short esters, which they are more beneficial when wanting to slab on muscle.


In conclusion, short esters have a higher peak plasma concentration than short esters, and long esters are more anabolic than short esters, so there is a difference in TEST, TEST is just not TEST, it depends on the ester chain, which performs different functions...


Here is what I recommend for optimal effects on a cycle, and to utilize the esters and the hormones much as possible.


Just an example: 400 mgs/wk Test E for 5 weeks, then 400 mgs/wk of Test P for 3 weeks. This protocol would provide the maximum peak plasma concentration and the most anabolism possible.

The moral of the story, intertwine long and short esters in a cycle to get the maximum benefits..




References:
1. Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
2. Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG
3. Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001
4. Eakman GD, Dallas JS, Ponder SW, Keenan BS 1996 The effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on hypothalamic regulation of growth hormone secretion. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 81:1217–1223
5. [Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420
6. The role of aromatization in testosterone supplementation: Effects on cognition in older men M. M. Cherrier, A. M. Matsumoto, J. K. Amory, S. Ahmed, W. Bremner, E. R. Peskind, M. A. Raskind, M. Johnson, and S. Craft Neurology, Jan 2005; 64: 290 – 296
7. The Complex Role of Estrogens in Inflammation Rainer H. Straub Endocr. Rev., Aug 2007; 28: 521 – 574
8. The Protective Effects of Estrogen on the Cardiovascular SystemMichael E. Mendelsohn and Richard H. Karas N. Engl. J. Med., Jun 1999; 340: 1801 - 1811.
9. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.
10. Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
11. 1. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C.; et al. J. Pharm. Pharmac., 1976, 28, 882-885
12. Chaudry, M.A.Q.; James, K.C. J. Med. Chem., 1974, 17, 157-161.
13. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.Fertil Steril. 1980 Feb;33(2):201-3.
14. Behre HM, Nieschlag E. Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters. In: Nieschlag E, Behre HM, eds. Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution. 2nd ed. Berlin: Springer;1998:329-348.
15. Pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone propionate in normal menM Fujioka, Y Shinohara, S Baba, M Irie, and K Inoue J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Dec 1986; 63: 1361 – 1364
16. Injectable testosterone undecanoate has more favourable pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics than testosterone enanthateCJ Partsch, GF Weinbauer, R Fang, and E NieschlagEur. J. Endocrinol., Apr 1995; 132: 514 - 519.

To me it looks more like someones point of view or opinion rather than proven facts.

This whole post looks dated and so 2000's. I don't bother with little stuff like this, I have proven to myself that hard work is more important than total mg's or selection of steroids. So I believe we shouldn't focus on using short vs long esters, rather what we prefer and know works for us. Nail more important aspects of this lifestyle - diet and training and you're a winner regardless of what you choose to use, much less important is ester choice.

 

[Bridgestone]

source


In conclusion.... TEST is just not TEST, it depends on the ester chain, which performs different functions...

Ester 'chains' direct testosterone to perform different functions?!

Which functions does test prop engage in that cypionate does not like to do?

 

[TODAY]

Ester 'chains' direct testosterone to perform different functions?!

Which functions does test prop engage in that cypionate does not like to do?

Well you see

When you replace hydrogen with an alkyl the fatty acid directs the androgen pathway signal directly into the myofibril

 

[TODAY]

If the first half of the statement is true, then the second half must also be true.

That's just basic science

 

[Test_subject]

I love how one of the “findings” was that test prop had a lower active life than enanthate.

yOu DoN’t SaY?!

 

[John Ziegler]

in my experience &

with all the other steroids available to be had

high testosterone & or nandrolone decanoate are least favorites

high blood pressure with test

& the nandrolone creates some weird plaque in the heart

Ew !