How important is the Eccentric part of any exercise ... ?

[Send0]

@TODAY ... thank you for providing this study ... could you please give us your understanding of this meta-analysis ... I only skimmed it due to seeing it at 10pm ... I would appreciate it if you could it put into layman terms I could morec easily understand ...

I skimmed it, I didn't read it with a ton of focus because I have to do the eccentric portion no matter what, and I always do it in a controlled manner, so I didn't care that much about it.

The speed at which I lower the weight in a controlled fashion, for me anyway, is automatically dictated by how much weight I'm lifting. Heavier weight automatically forces me to control the weight more slowly than lighter weight... and I'm of course always trying to always lift heavier, so the eccentric portion automatically becomes slow by default.

I don't slow the eccentric portion more than I need to, because that takes energy that I could be using to increase mechanical tension by adding weight to the bar... slowing the eccentric more than necessary does not increase mechanical tension, so I don't see the point.

 

[Send0]

I skimmed it, it didn't read it with a ton of focus because I have to do the eccentric portion no matter what... and I always do it in a controlled manner. The speed at which I lower the weight in a controlled fashion, for me anyway, is automatically dictated by how much weight I'm lifting.

For example, when benching i can rep out the bar with a 1 second eccentric because the weight is light. I could not do that with 200lbs on the bar if I want to control the weight on the way down, I would have to apply more force so I could lower the weight safely.

I don't slow the eccentric portion more than I need to, because that takes energy that I could be using to increase mechanical tension by adding weight to the bar... slowing the eccentric more than necessary does not increase mechanical tension, so I don't see the point.

I should add that I'm probably not the best person to ask for insight on that particular article since I consider myself still at the beginning stages of understanding how to TRULY lift properly and also understanding what works for me.

So take what I said with a grain of salt, but if I had to give an answer right now on what do I think is most important... Then I think I'd say I focus more on controlling the weight, and that I don't focus on the eccentric beyond what I need to in order to have that control over the weight being moved.

 

[CJ]

@CJ @Send0 @TODAY DAY @Test_subject @TomJ @BigBaldBeardGuy ... did any of you guys have a chance to read that study that was posted by Today (and referrenced to Test_subject) ... I was reading it today and it seems to state that Eccentric movement seems to be criticially important in hypertrophy perhaps more so that Concentric ... I do not believe (but not sure) if if directly mentions slowing down the Eccentric portion ...

And, to be clear I am genuinely asking ... I may not have understood it and would appreciate hearing from you very experienced members ... plus studies may differ from real world as well ...

​

I read it, but didn't get into each individual study's criteria to see if it's applicable. I trust Schoenfeld to get that right.

My takeaway is that the eccentric portion of the lift is extremely important for hypertrophy, in that it appears to create just as much hypertrophy as the concentric portion does, and importantly, may cause hypertrophy in different areas of the muscle than the concentric does.

So in my opinion, controlled eccentrics are an important part of the lift, and if not performed correctly, gainzzz are bring left on the table.

 

[Send0]

I read it, but didn't get into each individual study's criteria to see if it's applicable. I trust Schoenfeld to get that right.

My takeaway is that the eccentric portion of the lift is extremely important for hypertrophy, in that it appears to create just as much hypertrophy as the concentric portion does, and importantly, may cause hypertrophy in different areas of the muscle than the concentric does.

So in my opinion, controlled eccentrics are an important part of the lift, and if not performed correctly, gainzzz are bring left on the table.

Do you find that the weight you lift automatically dictates the speed at which the eccentric is done?

 

[transcend2007]

I should add that I'm probably not the best person to ask for insight on that particular article since I consider myself still at the beginning stages of understanding how to TRULY lift properly and also understanding what works for me.

So take what I said with a grain of salt, but if I had to give an answer right now on what do I think is most important... Then I think I'd say I focus more on controlling the weight, and that I don't focus on the eccentric beyond what I need to in order to have that control over the weight being moved.

You comments here seem to reflect the general view of most here ... but the study (meta-analysis) seemed to conclude it is perhaps more important than at least people like me were giving it ... which was very little thought at all ... I may be discarding the dumbass 3 count (lol) ... ... but I will at least paying more attention to it than I was before ...

I read it, but didn't get into each individual study's criteria to see if it's applicable. I trust Schoenfeld to get that right.

My takeaway is that the eccentric portion of the lift is extremely important for hypertrophy, in that it appears to create just as much hypertrophy as the concentric portion does, and importantly, may cause hypertrophy in different areas of the muscle than the concentric does.

So in my opinion, controlled eccentrics are an important part of the lift, and if not performed correctly, gainzzz are bring left on the table.

Thanks CJ .. that is interesting ... I missed that ... Eccentric movement creates hypertrophy in different areas of the muscle ... that is interesting ...

 

[Test_subject]

I read it, but didn't get into each individual study's criteria to see if it's applicable. I trust Schoenfeld to get that right.

My takeaway is that the eccentric portion of the lift is extremely important for hypertrophy, in that it appears to create just as much hypertrophy as the concentric portion does, and importantly, may cause hypertrophy in different areas of the muscle than the concentric does.

So in my opinion, controlled eccentrics are an important part of the lift, and if not performed correctly, gainzzz are bring left on the table.

Basically.

The eccentric is definitely important, but overemphasis of the eccentric doesn’t offer any real benefit. For example, if you do a 10 second negative, it’s not any better than doing a 1-2 second negative.

On things like squats, doing a slow eccentric will (generally) have a dramatic negative impact on the load that you can use, so it’s counterproductive.

 

[transcend2007]

Basically.

The eccentric is definitely important, but overemphasis of the eccentric doesn’t offer any real benefit. For example, if you do a 10 second negative, it’s not any better than doing a 1-2 second negative.

On things like squats, doing a slow eccentric will (generally) have a dramatic negative impact on the load that you can use, so it’s counterproductive.

Thank you TS ... well put important (perhaps far more importance than I had been giving it previously) but NOT overemphasising it to the point of detracting from Concentric ... which others had been sayhing as earlier your review of the study simply said it in very understandable way ... do it -- be mindful as it is important ... DO NOT over do it .. 10/4 .. that is very clear ...

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Lol at the “micro tears” in the muscles. Yea, ok. That’s outdated.

But with regard to the eccentrics, this was what I was referring to with weight releasers.

With the eccentric being so much stronger, when you do the concentric and eccentric together in a typical movement pattern, there’s not nearly enough weight to do anything beneficial focusing on the eccentric. It’s simply not getting enough tension.

 

[Test_subject]

Lol at the “micro tears” in the muscles. Yea, ok. That’s outdated.

But with regard to the eccentrics, this was what I was referring to with weight releasers.
View attachment 43724
With the eccentric being so much stronger, when you do the concentric and eccentric together in a typical movement pattern, there’s not nearly enough weight to do anything beneficial focusing on the eccentric. It’s simply not getting enough tension.

Yep. If you use a proper load to actually train the eccentric, you’re not going to be able to lift it back up without some sort of assistance.

 

[CJ]

Do you find that the weight you lift automatically dictates the speed at which the eccentric is done?

Personally for me, I don't think so, but I know what you're saying. You can't just free fall a heavy weight without the risk of injury, so one is automatically going to slow those down, vs the rapid fire 'bar only reps' that we've all seen.

The last few years, I've treated every rep equally important, from the first warmup to the final failure rep. Even though the last few have the most hypertrophic potential, I feel as though all the reps play their part in getting to those important last few reps. So my warmups aren't throwaways, they 'grease the groove', get me feeling the muscle, get some blood flowing, etc...

 

[CJ]

Basically.

The eccentric is definitely important, but overemphasis of the eccentric doesn’t offer any real benefit. For example, if you do a 10 second negative, it’s not any better than doing a 1-2 second negative.

On things like squats, doing a slow eccentric will (generally) have a dramatic negative impact on the load that you can use, so it’s counterproductive.

Agreed. Controlled, but ultra slow for that silly "time under tension" thing people like to call it... Dumb.

You'd have just as much time under tension doing more reps at a reasonable tempo.

 

[transcend2007]

Lol at the “micro tears” in the muscles. Yea, ok. That’s outdated.

But with regard to the eccentrics, this was what I was referring to with weight releasers.
View attachment 43724
With the eccentric being so much stronger, when you do the concentric and eccentric together in a typical movement pattern, there’s not nearly enough weight to do anything beneficial focusing on the eccentric. It’s simply not getting enough tension.

This why I was asking if your guys read the meta-analysis (I clearly did not understand it) ... so if I am understanding your review of this data ... you are say the Eccentric studies showing greater hypertrophy stated that they were training with weights 20% to 50% higher than concentric training ... so the hypertrophy gains were from the Eccentric movements only ... I did not see that either ... you and CJ are clearly far more adept at reading these ... but that would seem to be criticial to the understanding of the data ...

 

[Send0]

Personally for me, I don't think so, but I know what you're saying. You can't just free fall a heavy weight without the risk of injury, so one is automatically going to slow those down, vs the rapid fire 'bar only reps' that we've all seen.

The last few years, I've treated every rep equally important, from the first warmup to the final failure rep. Even though the last few have the most hypertrophic potential, I feel as though all the reps play their part in getting to those important last few reps. So my warmups aren't throwaways, they 'grease the groove', get me feeling the muscle, get some blood flowing, etc...

Yeah, the weight I move automatically drives the speed of my eccentric because I'm trying not to get injured. Instead I just focus on controlling the weight in my working sets.

The only time I bother focusing on eccentric specifically is during warm up sets. Because like you said, it's way too easy to rapid fire them, and I don't see how I properly warm up if I don't spend some time in the eccentric when I'm cold and the muscle is in a lengthened position. Sometimes I hold a long pause at the bottom of my warm up sets for this reason. It's really helped me avoid shoulder issues this year.

 

[CJ]

Yeah, the weight I move automatically drives the speed of my eccentric because I'm trying not to get injured. Instead I just focus on controlling the weight in my working sets.

The only time I bother focusing on eccentric specifically is during warm up sets. Because like you said, it's way too easy to rapid fire them, and I don't see how I properly warm up if I don't spend some time in the eccentric when I'm cold and the muscle is in a lengthened position. Sometimes I hold a long pause at the bottom of my warm up sets for this reason. It's really helped me avoid shoulder issues this year.

When I do the eccentric portions, I'm trying to feel the target muscle getting a good stretch. Almost like stretching an elastic under control.

No specific time/tempo though.

 

[sstraffel]

Lol at the “micro tears” in the muscles. Yea, ok. That’s outdated.

But with regard to the eccentrics, this was what I was referring to with weight releasers.
View attachment 43724
With the eccentric being so much stronger, when you do the concentric and eccentric together in a typical movement pattern, there’s not nearly enough weight to do anything beneficial focusing on the eccentric. It’s simply not getting enough tension.

Thank you very much for this snapshot of information you have provided from one of your preferred sources.
Do you think you can share where this actually came from but more specifically can you please let me know what the source is for the #2 reference in the section you outlined with the percentages?
I think it would be really great for some of us who like to see what actually went into the percentages provided in that #2 reference.
Thank you in advance and again ty for the valuable screenshot of knowledge that you pasted from your preferred source.

 

[Send0]

Thank you very much for this snapshot of information you have provided from one of your preferred sources.
Do you think you can share where this actually came from but more specifically can you please let me know what the source is for the #2 reference in the section you outlined with the percentages?
I think it would be really great for some of us who like to see what actually went into the percentages provided in that #2 reference.
Thank you in advance and again ty for the valuable screenshot of knowledge that you pasted from your preferred source.

It's taken from the article that @TODAY posted in this thread. Page 1, post #15.

Here's the direct link he provided in that post.

Hypertrophic Effects of Concentric vs. Eccentric Muscle... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

rgent hypertrophic responses. The purpose of this paper was to conduct a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials comparing the hypertrophic effects of concentric vs. eccentric training in healthy adults after regimented resistance training (RT). Studies were deemed...

journals.lww.com

 

[Test_subject]

It's taken from the article that @TODAY posted in this thread. Page 1, post #15.

Here's the direct link he provided in that post.

Hypertrophic Effects of Concentric vs. Eccentric Muscle... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

rgent hypertrophic responses. The purpose of this paper was to conduct a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials comparing the hypertrophic effects of concentric vs. eccentric training in healthy adults after regimented resistance training (RT). Studies were deemed...

journals.lww.com

NoT cItEd PrOpErLy!

 

[sstraffel]

@Send0, ty kind sir for the main reference. I guess I GoOfeD by not looking back far enough.
I have some research to do now. My first thought is that paper is from 2017. There has to be more recent research.
My main interest was in the part of the snapshot that @BigBaldBeardGuy outlined. Now I am really skeptical because that paper referenced is from 2001. I will have to see if I can get a full version of that. I am certain there is better contemporary data than referencing a 2001 paper. I will look into it.
@Test_subject, I don't get your latest post here. Can you explain? I feel like your post may be a joke so I guess you are just trying to be funny.

 

[Send0]

@Send0, ty kind sir for the main reference. I guess I GoOfeD by not looking back far enough.
I have some research to do now. My first thought is that paper is from 2017. There has to be more recent research.
My main interest was in the part of the snapshot that @BigBaldBeardGuy outlined. Now I am really skeptical because that paper referenced is from 2001. I will have to see if I can get a full version of that. I am certain there is better contemporary data than referencing a 2001 paper. I will look into it.
@Test_subject, I don't get your latest post here. Can you explain. I feel like are stating a joke that is supposed to be funny so I guess you are just trying to be funny.

Tell you what king... when you find more recent, or find the better data that you claim is out there, then post it up.

We will wait patiently for your expert analysis.

 

[Test_subject]

@Send0, ty kind sir for the main reference. I guess I GoOfeD by not looking back far enough.
I have some research to do now. My first thought is that paper is from 2017. There has to be more recent research.
My main interest was in the part of the snapshot that @BigBaldBeardGuy outlined. Now I am really skeptical because that paper referenced is from 2001. I will have to see if I can get a full version of that. I am certain there is better contemporary data than referencing a 2001 paper. I will look into it.
@Test_subject, I don't get your latest post here. Can you explain? I feel like your post may be a joke so I guess you are just trying to be funny.