What's your current opinion on eccentric?

[Mythos]

I ran across Yates talking about using some specific techniques using eccentric phase, thought I'd throw this out there.

I tend to think this subject isn't as black and white as we want it to be either. What's everyone's opinion on these pointts:

1. Is any eccentric control during a movement a waste of time assuming you can drop the weight safely?
2. If doing 2 second eccentrics on certain lifts lowers the reps you need to get to failure or your target RIR range, doesn't this make the set more efficient thus lowering volume?
3.Does your opinion on eccentrics hold the same for all lifts? Example, RDLs, leg press.
4. We know that muscles are stronger during the eccentric but to what extent and does this just mean that it's impractical to train negatives only or does it mean we shouldn't use any eccentric control during a normal set and why?
5. Yates seemed to like the idea of eccentric on the last rep or reps on certain machines, what's your opinion on this?
6. What role does stretch under tension and better form play in this discussion? Is it possible there's some less tangible benefits to eccentrics like, for example teaching basic controlled eccentrics to beginners might slow them down and improve their focus on correct form and isolation?
7. Any thoughts on whether controlled eccentrics might affect metabolite accumulation?



Just a note, while I haven't read the literature on it, I've heard that that adding a bunch of time on your eccentric doesn't do anything more than just a 1-2 second controlled eccentric. This seems to hold true in my personal observations. If anyone has any studies on that aspect I'd like to see it

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I ran across Yates talking about using some specific techniques using eccentric phase, thought I'd throw this out there.

I tend to think this subject isn't as black and white as we want it to be either. What's everyone's opinion on these pointts:

1. Is any eccentric control during a movement a waste of time assuming you can drop the weight safely?
2. If doing 2 second eccentrics on certain lifts lowers the reps you need to get to failure or your target RIR range, doesn't this make the set more efficient thus lowering volume?
3.Does your opinion on eccentrics hold the same for all lifts? Example, RDLs, leg press.
4. We know that muscles are stronger during the eccentric but to what extent and does this just mean that it's impractical to train negatives only or does it mean we shouldn't use any eccentric control during a normal set and why?
5. Yates seemed to like the idea of eccentric on the last rep or reps on certain machines, what's your opinion on this?
6. What role does stretch under tension and better form play in this discussion? Is it possible there's some less tangible benefits to eccentrics like, for example teaching basic controlled eccentrics to beginners might slow them down and improve their focus on correct form and isolation?
7. Any thoughts on whether controlled eccentrics might affect metabolite accumulation?



Just a note, while I haven't read the literature on it, I've heard that that adding a bunch of time on your eccentric doesn't do anything more than just a 1-2 second controlled eccentric. This seems to hold true in my personal observations. If anyone has any studies on that aspect I'd like to see it

There’s been a lot of discussion about this on here recently.

Answer to number 4 is: The weight you can do on the concentric is generally 80% of the eccentric. There was a research paper posted here a few weeks ago where I highlighted that.

It’s why purposely slowing the eccentric isn’t all that effective. Does it work? Yes. Just not as effectively as adding weight on the concentric and focusing on that, with a controlled eccentric.

There are also weight releasers where you can overload the eccentric. That works well. Or you can find a partner who is willing to deadlift for you on your bench press day.

 

[Yano]

I used to do quite a bit of tempo work , while it burns you out fast and you get to failure quicker I wasn't really seeing a jump in lifts as much as I did in endurance and recovery speed on days I did normal work.

An by muscle endurance I'm talking speed of recovery between sets and reps as well as day to day.

Once I got up a bit in sets n reps I noticed I wasn't feeling blown out all the next day after max effort work. Wasn't like I was adding sets or reps faster.

Oh , what's tempo work ? .... The dreaded 321 - 3 count on the eccentric 2 count in the hole on the pause - 1 on the concentric.

You can do it on any lift , and any count depending on how crazy you are.

Fun and a challenge for sure but I don't know how much of a "muscle builder" it is.

 

[TomJ]

I don't believe it matters as much as some people claim, just control the weight on the eccentric, explosive concentric and milk the eccentric on the last rep.

Do this for basically everything

 

[Test_subject]

Tempo reps and eccentric training have their place in strength sports, but they’re pretty much negligible for hypertrophy. As long as you’re lowering the weight under control, you’re training the eccentric to some degree.

There’s not a benefit to slowing it down further for hypertrophy. By using a weight that allows you to perform the concentric portion of the lift, you’re by necessity under-loading the eccentric, because you’re significantly stronger in the eccentric portion of the lift. Your training max is higher relative to the concentric portion.

If you loaded an exercise to truly train the eccentric with the requisite intensity, you wouldn’t be able to get the weight back up.

 

[buck]

The only studies i have seen showing real benefit from eccentric lifting was with supramaximal weights and those studies were years ago. I control the weight down but do not try to go slow. Going slow in concentric or eccentric lifts generally means light er weights which i see no benefit from as far as muscle growth. Possibly for retaining muscle.

 

[Mythos]

Thanks everyone. I know there's been a lot of discussion on eccentrics but it's mostly about one of two things : the impractical "eccentric only" training that basically nobody is ever going to do and training just to slow your eccentrics, which I think we all agree is a waste of time and energy.

But the reason I'm bringing this up and I think it's worth having a deeper discussion on it because I've seen some advanced bb pros using 2-3 sec eccentrics religiously for certain lifts, especially ones involving stretch, especially leg press, and rows at the peak of the movement, etc. Then Dorian's ideas of including them at the end of sets are also interesting.. basically saying 80% is not that much less in the context of you just went to 0 RiR in the concentric.
Also, in my own experience, even 2 second eccentrics on certain lifts just simply lower the amount of reps I have to do to get to failure and it feels good, much akin to how it feels using correct positioning to properly isolate and remove too much accessory muscle involvement.
Then there's the metabolite issue.. We know metabolites matter and it seems to me that controlled eccentrics could change this variable depending on the situation.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback

M

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Then there's the metabolite issue.. We know metabolites matter and it seems to me that controlled eccentrics could change this variable depending on the situation.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback

M

How do metabolites matter? I don’t think they do, at least not significantly.

If the question is “does it work” then the answer is “yes”.

But if the question is “does it work BETTER” then the answer is “no, it isn’t as effective”.

The old school bodybuilders also thought they were damaging the muscles, causing micro tears that when healed made the muscle bigger. That’s not the way it works though.

Slow eccentrics are like “pre-exhausting muscles”. But when we now know mechanical tension results in the signaling for myofibrillar protein synthesis (MyOps) and the best way to put the muscles under mechanical tension is to take the reps to task failure with the heaviest weight that you can use, why would you do anything (like pre-exhausting, or volume, or tempo work) that would impact your performance.

 

[Mythos]

Tempo reps and eccentric training have their place in strength sports, but they’re pretty much negligible for hypertrophy. As long as you’re lowering the weight under control, you’re training the eccentric to some degree.

There’s not a benefit to slowing it down further for hypertrophy. By using a weight that allows you to perform the concentric portion of the lift, you’re by necessity under-loading the eccentric, because you’re significantly stronger in the eccentric portion of the lift. Your training max is higher relative to the concentric portion.

If you loaded an exercise to truly train the eccentric with the requisite intensity, you wouldn’t be able to get the weight back up.

Yeah but again what I'm seeing that you're saying here is really just eccentric phase requires more load and therefore it is impractical to train eccentrics only using traditional lifting methods.

I'm not so sure this translates well to the value of use of eccentrics for hypertrophy in the context of concentrics in all circumstances. It's too big of a leap for me.. Look at it like this, if you are doing longer eccentrics especially on the last reps, how close to eccentric failure are you getting? We might be getting to 2 rir for the eccentric.. Is this really useless?

I understand that generally it's good advice to say this kind of thing to keep people from doing wacky ineffective eccentric focused training like 6 second negatives on a press with not nearly enough load. That's just not the same thing as a 2-3 second eccentric on a leg press or like Yates ideas of doing hard eccentrics at the end of sets.

Also my understanding is that there have been studies showing that extending eccentrics to silly lengths like 4+ seconds isn't more effective than 2 seconds, but that 2 seconds does do something and is different from say a controlled drop that barely takes a second.

 

[Mythos]

How do metabolites matter? I don’t think they do, at least not significantly.

If the question is “does it work” then the answer is “yes”.

But if the question is “does it work BETTER” then the answer is “no, it isn’t as effective”.

The old school bodybuilders also thought they were damaging the muscles, causing micro tears that when healed made the muscle bigger. That’s not the way it works though.

Slow eccentrics are like “pre-exhausting muscles”. But when we now know mechanical tension results in the signaling for myofibrillar protein synthesis (MyOps) and the best way to put the muscles under mechanical tension is to take the reps to task failure with the heaviest weight that you can use, why would you do anything (like pre-exhausting, or volume, or tempo work) that would impact your performance.

This is interesting, but then if this is the case, it seems like you'd want as little eccentric control as possible so dropping the weight as quickly as you can safely would allow you to use more weight. Thanks for the feedback, sorry for short answer but it's time to make the donuts.

 

[Test_subject]

Yeah but again what I'm seeing that you're saying here is really just eccentric phase requires more load and therefore it is impractical to train eccentrics only using traditional lifting methods.

I'm not so sure this translates well to the value of use of eccentrics for hypertrophy in the context of concentrics in all circumstances. It's too big of a leap for me.. Look at it like this, if you are doing longer eccentrics especially on the last reps, how close to eccentric failure are you getting? We might be getting to 2 rir for the eccentric.. Is this really useless?

I understand that generally it's good advice to say this kind of thing to keep people from doing wacky ineffective eccentric focused training like 6 second negatives on a press with not nearly enough load. That's just not the same thing as a 2-3 second eccentric on a leg press or like Yates ideas of doing hard eccentrics at the end of sets.

Also my understanding is that there have been studies showing that extending eccentrics to silly lengths like 4+ seconds isn't more effective than 2 seconds, but that 2 seconds does do something and is different from say a controlled drop that barely takes a second.

Eccentrics aren’t completely useless. What I’m saying is that it’s pointless to train specifically for them.

Say you’re training at 80% of your concentric max… what is commonly referred to as 1RM. Your eccentric max is 20-50% higher than that. So let’s take the middle of the road and say that the eccentric is 35% stronger.

You’re lifting 80% of your concentric 1RM, but only 52% of your eccentric 1RM. That’s barely even strength training; you’re basically doing pink dumbbell, cardio bunny training at that point, so why prioritize that aspect of the lift?

Does the eccentric do something? Absolutely. Is it worth prioritizing? Absolutely not.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Does the eccentric do something? Absolutely. Is it worth prioritizing? Absolutely not.

Either you don’t read my posts at all or you read mine and change the words slightly.

If the question is “does it work” then the answer is “yes”.

But if the question is “does it work BETTER” then the answer is “no, it isn’t as effective”.

 

[Test_subject]

Either you don’t read my posts at all or you read mine and change the words slightly.

I didn’t

I skipped directly to the “so and so quoted your post” notification.

 

[Mythos]

Eccentrics aren’t completely useless. What I’m saying is that it’s pointless to train specifically for them.

Say you’re training at 80% of your concentric max… what is commonly referred to as 1RM. Your eccentric max is 20-50% higher than that. So let’s take the middle of the road and say that the eccentric is 35% stronger.

You’re lifting 80% of your concentric 1RM, but only 52% of your eccentric 1RM. That’s barely even strength training; you’re basically doing pink dumbbell, cardio bunny training at that point, so why prioritize that aspect of the lift?

Does the eccentric do something? Absolutely. Is it worth prioritizing? Absolutely not.

Even if you assume that those numbers stay the same in the context of regular concentric movements for the same muscle, I think you could still get 2-3 RiR eccentric reps at the end of a set like apparently Yates is talking about doing here.. How could that not be effective? I guess you could argue that the biochemical stimulus pathways from negs aren't optimal (because apparently the tension sensors are different for passive loads) or the more damage vs stimulus from eccentrics problem makes it not worthwhile but the load issue in the context of you just did a heavy concentric movement.. Idk.

Anyway very informative chat, much appreciated.

 

[FinalOpus]

I don't believe it matters as much as some people claim, just control the weight on the eccentric, explosive concentric and milk the eccentric on the last rep.

Do this for basically everything

Maybe it’s not true but I was studying for the CPT and NASM says that slow eccentric AND concentric increases growth hormone and testosterone

 

[FinalOpus]

Yeah but again what I'm seeing that you're saying here is really just eccentric phase requires more load and therefore it is impractical to train eccentrics only using traditional lifting methods.

I'm not so sure this translates well to the value of use of eccentrics for hypertrophy in the context of concentrics in all circumstances. It's too big of a leap for me.. Look at it like this, if you are doing longer eccentrics especially on the last reps, how close to eccentric failure are you getting? We might be getting to 2 rir for the eccentric.. Is this really useless?

I understand that generally it's good advice to say this kind of thing to keep people from doing wacky ineffective eccentric focused training like 6 second negatives on a press with not nearly enough load. That's just not the same thing as a 2-3 second eccentric on a leg press or like Yates ideas of doing hard eccentrics at the end of sets.

Also my understanding is that there have been studies showing that extending eccentrics to silly lengths like 4+ seconds isn't more effective than 2 seconds, but that 2 seconds does do something and is different from say a controlled drop that barely takes a second.

It does seem like a really complicated way to train. How can you only lower a weight that you can’t lift because it’s too heavy… I have also heard of this philosophy. Seems like something you could only do with a partner.

 

[Gadawg]

At a minimum, they do strengthen and heal tendons.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

They make your skin glowing and smooth too.

Also, since I’ve been doing slow eccentrics, I’ve noticed an increase in hair growth.

- BigAfroBeardGuy

 

[TomJ]

Maybe it’s not true but I was studying for the CPT and NASM says that slow eccentric AND concentric increases growth hormone and testosterone

Nasm also doesn't have a fucking clue and certified absolute clowns that don't know anything at all as trainers.

 

[FinalOpus]

Nasm also doesn't have a fucking clue and certified absolute clowns that don't know anything at all as trainers.

Probably true lol