Is Training to Failure Worse for Gains?

[buck]

Rebound is not tempo.

Lowering the bar faster to get rebound is tempo as the speed changes. And opinion on this is different to as we are finding out.

It's allowed, meaning nobody is going to arrest you. But once you lean, you're no longer doing the same movement, you've taking load off the biceps by changing the force curve and leverage points.

Failure is when the task can no longer be completed with the proper form. Crystal clear.

One persons perfect form is another person's cheating as we are seeing perfectly clearly here!

I am just interested in what the researchers went by. So i can judge it against my opinion.

 

[CJ]

Lowering the bar faster to get rebound is tempo as the speed changes. And opinion on this is different to as we are finding out.

One persons perfect form is another person's cheating as we are seeing perfectly clearly here!

I am just interested in what the researchers went by. So i can judge it against my opinion.

Rebound can cause a change in tempo, yes, but it is NOT tempo. You're just wrong. I can stick a needle in your ass when you squat, you'll move faster, but the needle isn't tempo, either.

Rebound is a form of cheating, it is not good form FOR BODYBUILDING, as it harnesses energy to make the concentric portion of the lift easier, again, taking stress off of the target muscles. Just another way people cheat to make things easier. People need to work harder, and stop trying to make everything easier.

Rebound is perfectly fine and acceptable in a sport like Olympic Weightlifting, as what their sport defines as good form varies.

Same for powerlifters. Their form is not geared towards aesthetics, it's to move a weight from Point A to Point B efficiently.

For bodybuilding purposes, any change in form that takes stress OFF of the target muscles is counterproductive, and should be avoided.

 

[buck]

Rebound can cause a change in tempo, yes, but it is NOT tempo. You're just wrong. I can stick a needle in your ass when you squat, you'll move faster, but the needle isn't tempo, either.

Correct the speed of the bar/object is tempo and when that changes the tempo changes. Tempo is lowering and raising the bar in my world as those 2 things make 1 rep. I don't define words i just use them as they are used in the dictionary. As per Websters dictionary
"rate of motion or activity"

Rebound is a form of cheating, it is not good form FOR BODYBUILDING, as it harnesses energy to make the concentric portion of the lift easier, again, taking stress off of the target muscles. Just another way people cheat to make things easier. People need to work harder, and stop trying to make everything easier.

Rebound is perfectly fine and acceptable in a sport like Olympic Weightlifting, as what their sport defines as good form varies.

Same for powerlifters. Their form is not geared towards aesthetics, it's to move a weight from Point A to Point B efficiently.

For bodybuilding purposes, any change in form that takes stress OFF of the target muscles is counterproductive, and should be avoided.

So as you have noted changing tempo can change how much work the muscle does. So as soon are the bar is lowered faster at all then failure would be hit it seems. So tempo is a part of good form. and once tempo changes form changes.

What constitutes good form for one group is different then for another.
So i am back to asking what form did the researchers use as their idea of good form and when did they apply failure.

But i strongly support others coming to their own ideas. And not following my thinking or those that have all the answers as no one does when it comes to anything related to biology especially human biology.

 

[CJ]

Correct the speed of the bar/object is tempo and when that changes the tempo changes. Tempo is lowering and raising the bar in my world as those 2 things make 1 rep. I don't define words i just use them as they are used in the dictionary. As per Websters dictionary
"rate of motion or activity"

So as you have noted changing tempo can change how much work the muscle does. So as soon are the bar is lowered faster at all then failure would be hit it seems. So tempo is a part of good form. and once tempo changes form changes.

What constitutes good form for one group is different then for another.
So i am back to asking what form did the researchers use as their idea of good form and when did they apply failure.

But i strongly support others coming to their own ideas. And not following my thinking or those that have all the answers as no one does when it comes to anything related to biology especially human biology.

Again, failure is when one FAILS at completing a rep with the prescribed/desired form.

Not subjective at all.

 

[buck]

Again, failure is when one FAILS at completing a rep with the prescribed/desired form.

Not subjective at all.

That is correct it is just your idea of what the correct form looks like and mine can be different. That one of the reasons for multiple judges at power lifting meets as opinions differ. even when viwing the same thing. for example.
So i am back to asking what did they use as the guide for correct form in the RIR studies? As opinions differ.

 

[CJ]

Correct the speed of the bar/object is tempo and when that changes the tempo changes. Tempo is lowering and raising the bar in my world as those 2 things make 1 rep. I don't define words i just use them as they are used in the dictionary. As per Websters dictionary
"rate of motion or activity"

So as you have noted changing tempo can change how much work the muscle does. So as soon are the bar is lowered faster at all then failure would be hit it seems. So tempo is a part of good form. and once tempo changes form changes.

What constitutes good form for one group is different then for another.
So i am back to asking what form did the researchers use as their idea of good form and when did they apply failure.

But i strongly support others coming to their own ideas. And not following my thinking or those that have all the answers as no one does when it comes to anything related to biology especially human biology.

And researchers will not allow cheating, they strive to have as few variables as possible. They're going to use the definition of failure, not some made up bro crap.

 

[CJ]

That is correct it is just your idea of what the correct form looks like and mine can be different. That one of the reasons for multiple judges at power lifting meets as opinions differ. even when viwing the same thing. for example.
So i am back to asking what did they use as the guide for correct form in the RIR studies? As opinions differ.

No, this whole back and forth was about what is FAILURE.

If you want to change it to a discussion on form, go ahead, but I'm speaking solely on what is failure.

 

[buck]

No, this whole back and forth was about what is FAILURE.

If you want to change it to a discussion on form, go ahead, but I'm speaking solely on what is failure.

So as long as i can heave the bar up any way that i can you support that as being 1 rep and failure has not been achieved?

 

[buck]

And researchers will not allow cheating, they strive to have as few variables as possible. They're going to use the definition of failure, not some made up bro crap.

So what were the variables that they used for defining rep? I have not seen that myself. I have been to orthopedic surgeons that had different opinions. so even among the top there are differing opinions as to what is right or best.

 

[CJ]

So as long as i can heave the bar up any way that i can you support that as being 1 rep and failure has not been achieved?

You must've missed me saying this several times, so again... failure is when one FAILS at completing a rep with the prescribed/desired form.

 

[CJ]

So what were the variables that they used for defining rep? I have not seen that myself. I have been to orthopedic surgeons that had different opinions. so even among the top there are differing opinions as to what is right or best.

Actually, they tend to use exercises where form variance tends to be taken out of the equation. They usually use exercises like leg press or leg extensions, things with fixed patterns.

 

[CJ]

So what were the variables that they used for defining rep? I have not seen that myself. I have been to orthopedic surgeons that had different opinions. so even among the top there are differing opinions as to what is right or best.

I wouldn't go to surgeons for exercise advice, I'd go to them for what they're trained at, surgery.

 

[buck]

You must've missed me saying this several times, so again... failure is when one FAILS at completing a rep with the prescribed/desired form.

No i did not miss that. So we are back to if tempo changes then the next rep is not the same as the previous rep. so then the form changed. And some call that failure. Others don't. so opinions differ.

 

[JeffGoldblumLips]

No i did not miss that. So we are back to if tempo changes then the next rep is not the same as the previous rep. so then the form changed. And some call that failure. Others don't. so opinions differ.

The "speed/tempo" of the rep doesn't matter as long as the movement pattern is the same.
If speed/tempo is the same but you have to change the position of your body to alter leverages in order to complete additional reps, you've failed, and then cheated for additional reps, which now no longer maximally stimulate the target muscle. Because that already failed.
If you pattern of the movement stays the same but the tempo/speed is reduced further into the set nobody is going to call those last reps "passed failure".

 

[JeffGoldblumLips]

Once your form breaks, you're bringing other muscles and/or leverages into it, and therefore actually putting LESS stress on the target muscles.

Once you can no longer complete a rep WITH PROPER FORM, you are at RIR-0. There is an allowable margin of form break that's acceptable though. But you can see when someone is doing junk reps.

Understood. I know this has been covered by TomJ but it adds to my initial confusion of the subject.
How are you differentiating mechanical/technical failure. Is there a scenario in which you reach technical failure (form breaks down beyond acceptable deviations) but you haven't reached mechanical failure. I can't understand the seperation between the two terms they seem intertwined. Like mechanical failure should be causing the technical failure in my head.

 

[buck]

The "speed/tempo" of the rep doesn't matter as long as the movement pattern is the same.
If speed/tempo is the same but you have to change the position of your body to alter leverages in order to complete additional reps, you've failed, and then cheated for additional reps, which now no longer maximally stimulate the target muscle. Because that already failed.
If you pattern of the movement stays the same but the tempo/speed is reduced further into the set nobody is going to call those last reps "passed failure".

Opinions differ.

 

[eazy]

this study used leg press and leg extension.

failure in this study was momentary muscular failure

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

The thing that confuses me with RIR/failure is the amount of body english people use to get the last reps. It looks like they're recruiting way more muscles than what they're targeting.
If you just stop lifting once your technique breaks down doesn't that automatically put you 1-3 reps away from failure?

Counterargument:

If your form breaks down and you're still repping... this arguably now counts as "beyond failure training".

So more gains.

 

[CJ]

No i did not miss that. So we are back to if tempo changes then the next rep is not the same as the previous rep. so then the form changed. And some call that failure. Others don't. so opinions differ.

No matter how many times you say it, it's never going to be true. Tempo is not form. Tempo is tempo.

If form changes, NOT TEMPO, because of a failure in being able to lift the load with the desired form, then yes, failure was achieved.

 

[buck]

No matter how many times you say it, it's never going to be true. Tempo is not form. Tempo is tempo.

If form changes, NOT TEMPO, because of a failure in being able to lift the load with the desired form, then yes, failure was achieved.

opinions differ.