What is the latest thoughts/info on Nandrolone RE: Heart Issues

[RowdyBrad]

Starting to plan out a muscle gain cycle for when I reach goal leanness. I have been looking more in to Nandrolone at a low dose to add to my trt+ type cycle.

I see older threads and studies about issues with Nandrolone and heart fibrosis, issues with losing the cardio protection, etc. online in various forums.

Some people say that the studies are not super valid because they used mega doses of just nandrolone to acheive the results and they thing that the e2 was tanked which is partially responsible, so adding in test and keeping e2 in decent range will help that be a non issue. Others say it is unrelated and actually the nandrolone cause potential fibrosis of the heart muscle with chronic abuse, but that can be prevented with Telmisartan or helped a bit with astaxanthin while keeping usage to shorter periods of time.

What are the current opinions and thoughts on running NPP or Deca nowadays if BP and diet/hydration is kept optimal?

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

Take it for what it's worth, this was posted on TNation by one of the most educated folks over there (Tareload/Readalot). I do believe he is a clinical researcher that runs studies on AAS of different sorts, though I'll note that he is VERY anti-AAS abuse.

Read This Before Considering Nandrolone or Any AAS

Usually I’d just leave this info “buried” in the other thread but it’s important enough to daylight it on the main page. Nandrolone based “HRT” and nandrolone use for joint/pain relief continues to garner much discussion and attention and it’s picking up. Please care for yourself. Your long...

forums.t-nation.com

This is another thread by one of the better posters over there (Iron Yuppie).

Nandrolone Deep Dive

Ok, so inspired by @now_i_care I thought I’d share my view of nandrolone and its various iterations, the case for usage, and the potential best ways to stack it effectively. Disclaimer: This is based on science and limited personal experience. I’m absolutely not the guy to ask about results...

forums.t-nation.com

I also wanted to run nandrolone alongside my TRT to reduce acne (kinda worked, not that great though tbh) and made a thread that was pretty solid in responses, if you wanted to read.

Replacing Some Test with Deca/NPP on TRT for Acne?

Currently on Test C 180mg/wk as TRT, but having some issues with back acne. I’ve had acne since I hit puberty (now 29 y/o) but my back acne was always very minimal. Now it looks like I’m blasting and I can’t get control of it. Have already tried mitigating measures and it’s not enough. Possibly...

forums.t-nation.com

TL;DR: You're still risking heart health like you would with any other AAS, though possibly at a higher rate due to Nandrolone's muscle building properties (enlarged heart).
I've done it and it felt great at 80 test, 120 NPP, but eventually I got mental sides when I turned that into a full blast.

 

[RowdyBrad]

Appreciate the links. I'm definitely just beginning the research before the cycle, but was under the impression that most of the LVH was from high bp that people seem to allow while on cycle. The one study I looked at used the equivalent of 2000mg a week for my size and it was in women. Not sure how to extrapolate that when the amount was so high compared to normal moderate usage.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

Appreciate the links. I'm definitely just beginning the research before the cycle, but was under the impression that most of the LVH was from high bp that people seem to allow while on cycle. The one study I looked at used the equivalent of 2000mg a week for my size and it was in women. Not sure how to extrapolate that when the amount was so high compared to normal moderate usage.

I would definitely consider NPP before Deca, in case you get sides and want to bail.

200/wk felt the same as 600/wk to me. BP was a elevated about 20 points for me, but i'm always low BP so it averaged out to like 70-120 for me.

 

[RowdyBrad]

During this current diet phase, I went to a maintenance/slight surplus and added Nandrolone for a short burst of a few weeks. I liked it with low test, but high test was unmanageable for me and flared up gyno. My blood pressure was great for me (iirc like 132/74) during the cycle. So if I use it again for a longer time period, I will take extra precaution and keep testosterone lower for sure.

I already supplement with Red Yeast Rice, Niacin, etc which may have helped with cardiovascular sides.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

You should consider B6 or P5P to keep prolactin in check. Wouldn't be a bad call to add in 5mg talafadil (cialis) daily to combat any DD issues (which may or may not happen).

 

[Send0]

You should consider B6 or P5P to keep prolactin in check. Wouldn't be a bad call to add in 5mg talafadil (cialis) daily to combat any DD issues (which may or may not happen).

just to add clarity... it needs to be p5p. Regular B6 won't lower prolactin, it needs to be the p5p form of B6.

 

[RowdyBrad]

For sure. I also have and take (took with NPP as well) p5p, tudca and DIM. Garlic, zinc, etc are all part of my daily 14 pills lol. I also take 1.2 grams of fish oil when I have anything over low dose trt.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

just to add clarity... it needs to be p5p. Regular B6 won't lower prolactin, it needs to be the p5p form of B6.

Where is P5P derived from?

Spoiler

B6

There are studies to support B6 supplementation up to 500mg/day lowering prolactin. P5P is just the active ingredient that does the work.

 

[Send0]

Spoiler: Where is P5P derived from?

B6

There are studies to support B6 supplementation up to 500mg/day lowering prolactin. P5P is just the active ingredient that does the work.

no shit... but if you take regular B6 then it's not going to lower anything on it's own.

tell you what, go slam a shit ton of nandrolone, confirm elevated prolactin, then go take some regular B6 and let me know how that works for you.

You said b6 or P5P (also a form of B6), implying that regular B6 will work.. it will not.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

no shit... but if you take regular B6 then it's not going to lower anything on it's own.

tell you what, go slam a shit ton of nandrolone, confirm elevated prolactin, then go take some regular B6 and let me know how that works for you.

I've already done that.

Went from 19 (no nandrolone) down to 17 at 600mg deca with 250mg B6 daily.

17 is still high, but it did lower.

I said it before, but there are studies that confirm B6 lowers prolactin via the P5P derivative of it.
However, P5P is more effective at doing so than B6.

 

[RowdyBrad]

I believe there is also negative stuff associated with taking the b6 at the dosage of the p5p. Can't recall what right now, I am at work, but the p5p is the benefit and the b6 in higher dosage isn't. Mine is the nutricost p5p.

 

[Send0]

I've already done that.

Went from 19 (no nandrolone) down to 17 at 600mg deca with 250mg B6 daily.

17 is still high, but it did lower.

I said it before, but there are studies that confirm B6 lowers prolactin via the P5P derivative of it.
However, P5P is more effective at doing so than B6.

I would call that an anomaly.. It is not significant enough to say that regular B6 is an adequate ancillary to reduce prolactin in the time frames that we need to have it lowered (ASAP).

I will always tell people to use P5P. it's just as easy to get as regular B6, is more effective, and works faster.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

I believe there is also negative stuff associated with taking the b6 at the dosage of the p5p.

I don't recall what the risks were, but the dosages were shown to be safe up to 500mg B6.

I think there was another study or something that showed P5P being like 250% more effective on a mg per mg basis, so I take it that means about 20% of total B6 dose is the benefit we're looking for. I believe it was @TomJ who mentioned the 250% somewhere.

@Send0 I'm not disagreeing with P5P being the better option, I just disagree that B6 has 0 benefit to prolactin. My personal experience has shown this, as does at least one study. I would still recommend P5P first, but B6 as a whole has solid benefits on it's own.

 

[RowdyBrad]

IIRC it was that some people get neuropathy or numbness in peripherals at higher dosage around the 5-600 range.

 

[Send0]

I don't recall what the risks were, but the dosages were shown to be safe up to 500mg B6.

I think there was another study or something that showed P5P being like 250% more effective on a mg per mg basis, so I take it that means about 20% of total B6 dose is the benefit we're looking for. I believe it was @TomJ who mentioned the 250% somewhere.

@Send0 I'm not disagreeing with P5P being the better option, I just disagree that B6 has 0 benefit to prolactin. My personal experience has shown this, as does at least one study. I would still recommend P5P first, but B6 as a whole has solid benefits on it's own.

you went from 19 to 17... your levels could fluctuate that much from day to day. The reduction is not significant enough to attribute it to your use of regular B6.

if you think the reduction you saw is significant, then we are at an impasse and no point in discussing it further.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

if you think the reduction you saw is significant

how in the fuck would I calculate "statistically significant" off a sample pool of one? lol

0 nandrolone prolactin = 19
600mg nandrolone w/ 250mg B6 prolactin = 17

That doesn't seem insignificant to me, but advice given to me on multiple boards, my TRT provider, and evidence showed in at least one study - all show B6 to have some value in lowering prolactin. P5P is just better at doing so than B6, which I've said multiple times.

Not sure why you're so bent out of shape over that.

 

[Send0]

how in the fuck would I calculate "statistically significant" off a sample pool of one? lol

0 nandrolone prolactin = 19
600mg nandrolone w/ 250mg B6 prolactin = 17

That doesn't seem insignificant to me, but advice given to me on multiple boards, my TRT provider, and evidence showed in at least one study - all show B6 to have some value in lowering prolactin. P5P is just better at doing so than B6, which I've said multiple times.

Not sure why you're so bent out of shape over that.

I am literally just talking to you. I am not bent out of shape.

Saying a drop of 2 points in prolactin is significant is like saying an increase of 50pts on testosterone is significant. It is not. I mean you don't even know that you had a prolactin increase to combat with nandrolone in your system.

Not everyone gets elevated prolactin on nandrolone, and you didn't wait to see if nandrolone was going to spike your levels. So how can you say B6 actually did anything, when your prolactin can literally fluctuate 2 points in the span of a day. The method that your using to try to prove B6 did something is flawed.

What really confuses me is that if you agree that P5P is the better option, then why keep pushing regular B6.

you're clearly upset. I'll leave you alone

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

I'll leave you alone

You could have started off this way; my original comment was factually correct.

 

[Send0]

You could have started off this way; my original comment was factually correct.

I don't agree that it is. so why would I say that.