Israel / Hamas Conflict

[Hughinn]

When I try to imagine myself a kid again, and born in an occupied territory like Gaza, where Israeli soldiers routinely kick down the door to my parents house, toss the place up, humiliate my father and abuse my sisters who are completely helpless against it, i really struggle to not see myself full of hate

Then when I imagine being a young man again, and remembering my boyhood and seeing someone like Hezbollah running Israel out of Lebanon and freeing those prisoners described above and personally knowing some of the families affected, I believe I would sympathize with them and look at Hezbollah differently

In some cases, of course, young men would seek a way to fight back against those who created the suffering of your family. Even if it means joining Hezbollah after you seen them liberate a torture prison like the one above

 

[Hughinn]

When I try to imagine myself a young man in Israel, I just keep going back to the reality of what the Israeli government has done.

I just can't see how someone who knows the truth of what that government is, could be willing to support it.

People are willing to fight for what they believe. I get that alot of Jewish people think Israel is some kind of refuge for them and they see themselves as victims. I can imagine that.

But I just can't imagine knowing the truth of what the Israeli government has done and is doing and support it anyway

 

[Hughinn]

We spent a lot of time discussing the Ukraine and Russia conflict

And I think many people here feel the same way when I say, I'd sooner pick up arms and fight AGAINST the Biden administration on behalf of my family before I'd be willing to fight Russia FOR the Biden administration and it's money laundering operations in Ukraine

I've got to imagine there's some Jewish and Israeli people that feel the same way in this situation

Because I don't have to support Joe Biden and his corrupt money schemes in foreign country to prove my loyalty to America

And Jewish people don't have to support the Israeli government to be loyal to the Jewish people of the world, because just like Joe Biden and Americans, the Israeli government is not helping the Jewish people feel safer or be free or prosperous, just like Joe Biden, Israel is doing the opposite of helping the people it's supposed to serve

 

[DF]

When I try to imagine myself a young man in Israel, I just keep going back to the reality of what the Israeli government has done.

I just can't see how someone who knows the truth of what that government is, could be willing to support it.

People are willing to fight for what they believe. I get that alot of Jewish people think Israel is some kind of refuge for them and they see themselves as victims. I can imagine that.

But I just can't imagine knowing the truth of what the Israeli government has done and is doing and support it anyway

While you’re imagining these scenarios. How about being a European Jew during WW2. Being rounded up, tortured, all your possessions taken. Put into camps stripped naked. Lead into gas chambers. Then into large ovens.

Try that one on @Hughinn

 

[Diesel59]

While you’re imagining these scenarios. How about being a European Jew during WW2. Being rounded up, tortured, all your possessions taken. Put into camps stripped naked. Lead into gas chambers. Then into large ovens.

Try that one on @Hughinn

That is a convenient way of deflecting from what @Hughinn was talking about and downplaying the points that he's making.

It's no different from the classic "compare people I dislike to Hitler" mentality.

 

[Hughinn]

While you’re imagining these scenarios. How about being a European Jew during WW2. Being rounded up, tortured, all your possessions taken. Put into camps stripped naked. Lead into gas chambers. Then into large ovens.

Try that one on @Hughinn

I have

And like I said, I can understand that having a profound affect on the people who went through it.

But few alive today really did.

And nothing that happened to those people who endured that atrocity, justifies what the government of Israel has done to the Palestinian people today.

And I just can't understand why Jewish people especially, would be supportive of a government that's doing to somebody, almost exactly what Nazi Germany did to the European Jews.

"Confined them to Jewish ghettos and have them few rights"

"Murdering and torturing them with impunity"

Let me ask you this @DF , a man who was abused as a child grows up and beats his wife and family. It happens all the time. And we understand that abuse can reoccur through victims themselves.

But those people in Israel today are not victims. And even if that mentality went into this current generation, which is privileged if anything, does it justify perpetuating similar abuses towards others?

You would not accept that excuse from a Man who was a childhood victim. And you'd be right to reject such an excuse.

So why are you making that excuse for people who never were victims themselves anyway?

Especially when what Israel is doing is just going to ensure more people hate Israel and by association, Jewish people?

It's not excusable. Even if the people today did live through the things the earlier ones did, it wouldn't be okay. But considering none of them have, I just can't imagine that justifying what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinian people

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

That is a convenient way of deflecting from what @Hughinn was talking about and downplaying the points that he's making.

It's no different from the classic "compare people I dislike to Hitler" mentality.

Oh really? Because I thought he slammed the nail right on its head and made an incredibly great point.

 

[Diesel59]

Oh really? Because I thought he slammed the nail right on its head and made an incredibly great point.

How is it a great point? It borders on whataboutism.

 

[Hughinn]

Oh really? Because I thought he slammed the nail right on its head and made an incredibly great point.

You think it's a great point that because the Holocaust in Europe happened to Jewish people that means the Israeli government today can do something similar to the Palestinians and it be acceptable?

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

How is it a great point? It borders on whataboutism.

Which is exactly whatabout Hughinn was doing.

 

[Diesel59]

Which is exactly whatabout Hughinn was doing.

How? He's on the thread topic.

 

[Hughinn]

How? He's on the thread topic.

The problem is, when the "victim" narrative falls apart, the pro Israel argument becomes completely untenable.

The fact is, historically speaking, Israel has no conceivable justification to claim being victims of the same people they've, robbed, confined and tormented for generations.

When you have the moral high ground, it's not necessary to create lies and false narratives to justify your actions.

When you have the moral high ground, you don't need lies and blackmail to secure support for your cause

The list is a mile long, but the point is without the perception of victim hood, Israel is simply an evil ethno nationalist apartheid state headed by a brutal regime willing to murder innocent people and children to protect their power and influence

And without the perception of victim hood, supporting such a state becomes a position of shame and folly.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

The problem is, when the "victim" narrative falls apart, the pro Israel argument becomes completely untenable.

The fact is, historically speaking, Israel has no conceivable justification to claim being victims of the same people they've, robbed, confined and tormented for generations.

When you have the moral high ground, it's not necessary to create lies and false narratives to justify your actions.

When you have the moral high ground, you don't need lies and blackmail to secure support for your cause

The list is a mile long, but the point is without the perception of victim hood, Israel is simply an evil ethno nationalist apartheid state headed by a brutal regime willing to murder innocent people and children to protect their power and influence

And without the perception of victim hood, supporting such a state becomes a position of shame and folly.

So a poor young little Palestinian wanting to join Hamas or hezbollah DETERMINED to fight back against Israel is excusable but when Jews go through the Holocaust and are DETERMINED to fight back and protect themselves, it’s inexcusable? Gotcha.

It’s also a “fact” that Israel has “no historical excuse” to fight the Arabs? The day after Israel became a country, these fine upstanding Arabs invaded. That is pretty good cause for continuing to protect themselves.

You keep saying the solution is to “integrate” the Palestinians into Israel. The Palestinians and other Arabs could have done the same back in 1948. They did not. They declared war and have continued to do so for 75 years. It sounds like your proposed “solution” is a one way street.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

@Hughinn how many Palestinians do you know? How many have you met? Any?

 

[Hughinn]

Imagine it

You've got a state of the art military with the most deadly cutting edge technology weapons money can buy provided free of charge to be used against a subjugated population confined to a prison compound guarded by machine gun robots and snipers, and a tiny civilian militia with home-made rockets and cold war surplus junk rifles

But THEY'RE the victim because of some shit that happened to people who are not even alive anymore in a land not even remotely resembling the place your in and to a people who have no relation to the place at all outside of thier own stories and fanciful wishes

It's utter lunacy

 

[Hughinn]

@Hughinn how many Palestinians do you know? How many have you met? Any?

At least a dozen if you count Jordanian people

And I've got Jewish family members too

Know what else? When family is wrong, you should be the first to let them know and the first one to stop them when they become hostile and depraved

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Imagine it

You've got a state of the art military with the most deadly cutting edge technology weapons money can buy provided free of charge to be used against a subjugated population confined to a prison compound guarded by machine gun robots and snipers, and a tiny civilian militia with home-made rockets and cold war surplus junk rifles

But THEY'RE the victim because of some shit that happened to people who are not even alive anymore in a land not even remotely resembling the place your in and to a people who have no relation to the place at all outside of thier own stories and fanciful wishes

It's utter lunacy

But do they have robots with machine guns?

You’ve already said it 100 times. Do you have proof of these robot machine guns?

By surplus junk rifles do you mean Iranian rockets?

Hamas leadership sure lives well. Maybe if they equitably distributed that wealth like it was originally intended the Palestinians would have their own sources of water. The poor Palestinians can blame their own elected govt for their shortcomings in life.

 

[DF]

That is a convenient way of deflecting from what @Hughinn was talking about and downplaying the points that he's making.

It's no different from the classic "compare people I dislike to Hitler" mentality.

Oops, forgive me for interrupting @Hughinn while he’s making countless points to himself.

Carry on @Hughinn

 

[Diesel59]

It’s also a “fact” that Israel has “no historical excuse” to fight the Arabs? The day after Israel became a country, these fine upstanding Arabs invaded. That is pretty good cause for continuing to protect themselves.

You can't leave out that the creation of Israel is exactly what gave them reason to invade.

 

[Diesel59]

Oops, forgive me for interrupting @Hughinn while he’s making countless points to himself.

Carry on @Hughinn

Great job continuing to sidestep the conversation.